OOTS #599 - The Discussion Thread

[esmerelder]

Oh, man, Haley's going to deck V. when (if!) they meet up with each other again and she finds out what ze's done. And then V. will lose zir temper with Haley, and I don't even want to think about what will happen next... :(

*sobs* This is worse than Season Six of Buffy!

[Estovus]

You misplaced your descriptors there - you mean barely defeated. The chance that all of those spells worked on a pit fiend of that power is fairly astronomical between saves, SR, and Prismatic Spray's inherent randomness. There's luck in strategy, and then there's sheer dumb luck.

I'll agree with you that she was reckless. Recklessness isn't incompetence.

What's causing it is irrelevant. Vaarsuvius could have sped along every single issue they've had, and thus had thousands of classed NPCs and half of a party to back him up with whatever alternative routes they decided to take. Instead, he's futilely throwing himself up against a magical wall out of sheer bloodymindedness. The incompetence isn't that he has failed to find Haley, the incompetence is how much more he could be doing to save the damn world and he's frankly done the least on that front for how much he seems to enjoy criticizing the rest about it.

But she doesn't care about the world. She cares about Haley. And so she's doing all she can to find Haley.

[Neopolis]

I like how Elan is developing from an idiot bard to an actually very cool character. As far as I recall, he used his bluff skill for the first time.

Not really.

[AstralFire]

I feel like I'm missing a page or two, though. I don't know WHY V is so enamored of Haley and Roy and not Durkon and Elan.

Haley helped V out with no urging, and was the first person on-screen to do so. (Order of the PCs.) Also, Roy and Haley both probably (certainly in Roy's case) have higher Int scores than Durkon and much higher than Elan, which appears to be half of all that V respects.

[kukn]

Allowing one of the main characters of a story to twist completely out the protagonist group is, for me, a sign of great literature. That is if the character has good reason to change thus.

I didn't think V would leave, but it works with his character perfectly.

[malakim2099]

Oooh. Could Qarr be "the wrong being"? (Goes to re-check the oracle's wording).

Edit: It's the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons. I sense a step closer to that prophecy becoming fulfilled, though.

Actually, I think we already had the four words (Disintegrate. Gust of Wind.) at the right time (before a would-be trial) to the right being (Kubota) for the wrong reasons (it was not a good act, nor was it a lawful one, and the paladins would not tolerate it).

And Elan definitely has some Wisdom boosts too, considering that trying to persuade V to stick around (which he could do with his Charisma, perhaps) would probably force a conflict between Hinjo and V. And Hinjo and his paladins would lose, badly, which would screw over the remnants of Azure City no small amount. Elan knows this, so lets him go.

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Think Qarr might know about the gates, since Sabine told her masters, and maybe they have the same bosses? Or that he heard about the gates through the Infernal Grapevine?

I think Blackwing (?) the Raven is gonna become bird chow, though... familiar upgrade!

Apologies if this was covered already, I didn't skim the other pages.

[pendell]

Funny comic, but if panel 6 of Elan/Hinjo is a subtle dig on the current US political situation, I have to say I'm disappointed with the Giant for the first time in many comics. Board ban aside, I come here to laugh and escape the real world, not be reminded of it.

I don't think he was.

I am a political junkie. I read all kinds of political things. And the idea that it might be a shot at the current political situation never even crossed my mind.

Timeless storytelling often has echoes in all kinds of situations. Example: Tolkien, in LOTR, was accused of making an allegory of WWII. He indignantly denied this in the forward of later editions, explaining that if he *had* meant it as allegory someone would have taken the ring for his own, Sauron would have been enslaved rather than destroyed, and Saruman would have succeeded in making his own ring, descending into a sort of cold war between the new ruler of the Ring and Saruman. A world in which hobbits and the shire would have been quickly exterminated.

As Tolkien said then, I think we're confusing *applicability* with *allegory*. The difference is that applicability is something the reader reads in based on their own preconceptions, while allegory is the explicit intent of the author. Narnia is allegory. LOTR is not.

And I think the same thing with this strip. If we see political application in the strip, it's because we're politically-minded creatures, not because the Giant intended it to be a political statement of any kind.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[AstralFire]

I'll agree with you that she was reckless. Recklessness isn't incompetence.

If you pulled something relying on those odds anywhere, even if you succeeded, and it wasn't your only viable option - say hello to the end of your career. It's incompetence.

But she doesn't care about the world. She cares about Haley. And so she's doing all she can to find Haley.

He doesn't care about the world he lives in?

And: "http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0596.html"

"Now, as stated, I would like us to refocus our efforts on saving the world."

[pendell]

BTW, I just re-read the strip for a third time and I still don't see a shred of subtle commentary on current events , political or otherwise.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Frank]

Interesting...

Elan's right back to where Roy started from.

-Frank

[Mojique]

I've been reading the comic since ~halfway through the Azure City battle, and since then the group has spent more time apart than together(not a single comic in that period that had all 6 characters)

Last one was #424.

[Estovus]

If you pulled something relying on those odds anywhere, even if you succeeded, and it wasn't your only viable option - say hello to the end of your career. It's incompetence.

It's not. It's recklessness, which was probably necessary to defeat the pit fiend.

He doesn't care about the world he lives in?

And: "http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0596.html"

"Now, as stated, I would like us to refocus our efforts on saving the world."

Saving the world means finding Haley and re-uniting the Order, first and foremost. As for the Azurites, and generally most people, for that matter, V doesn't give two ****s.

[AstralFire]

It's not. It's recklessness, which was probably necessary to defeat the pit fiend.

Sitting down and cooperating for 6 seconds would have probably allowed the Pit Fiend to go down a lot easier. 2 Paladins against Demons, Cleric in general, a ninja, and a fairly-competent-in-a-fight Bard, all of about 12th level. If the attacks could have been coordinated, you betcha that recklessness wasn't necessary at all, that's a pretty killer team.

Saving the world means finding Haley and re-uniting the Order, first and foremost. As for the Azurites, and generally most people, for that matter, V doesn't give two ****s.

And that would be part of why he is incompetent, because he doesn't appreciate the power of help.

[Laurentio II]

If you pulled something relying on those odds anywhere, even if you succeeded, and it wasn't your only viable option - say hello to the end of your career. It's incompetence.

While the other viable option was? No sarcasm, I lost it.

[AstralFire]

While the other viable option was? No sarcasm, I lost it.

Sitting down and thinking for a half-round about how to coordinate as a team rather than going about it slapdash-crazy with a Cleric trying to keep up with a handful of people running around and eating hits while the Wizard just flies about willy-nilly doing whatever he wants. V actively rejected any prospect of coordination up until right before the very end. And for what? His vanity, the same idiocy that got Roy killed, only Roy learned from it to some degree. Clerics are powerful. Hinjo was able to lay down some hurt. Imagine what more could have been done if they'd all been fighting coherently from the start.

I DM. When my party of PCs coordinate, I have to work very hard to give them a challenge, and they're not particularly optimized. When they just go about it as-they-may, they are extremely easy to knockdown one at a time as the group's strength suddenly rapidly dwindles.

[M84]

Heyall,

Like others on this forum, I'm a little depressed by the further splintering of the OotS. This is clearly one of those situations where things are going to get worse before they get better.

The silver lining in this cloud for me has been Elan's character development. The refugee arc shows that while Elan is still a rather goofy fellow, he's slowly but surely maturing. He's honestly trying to step up to the plate with the party split up and Roy dead.

Given that he's had to deal with being separated from his girlfriend, having to reject another girl he grew to be fond of in the short time he knew her WHILE SHE WAS DYING because of his commitment to Haley, dealing with a Smug Snake evil aristocrat's schemes, and trying (and failing it would seem) to avert his comrade V's SoD; he's doing a pretty good job. Especially for someone who's been a Spoony Bard for nearly his entire life. And that's not getting into the whole Evil Twin thing.

On a side note, I really like Qarr as a villain. Assuming V doesn't just banish him back to the Nine Hells (or wherever devils go these days when banished), I predict the four words he will say to Qarr may go along these lines:

"Become my familiar, Qarr."

[Estovus]

Sitting down and cooperating for 6 seconds would have probably allowed the Pit Fiend to go down a lot easier. 2 Paladins against Demons, Cleric in general, a ninja, and a fairly-competent-in-a-fight Bard, all of about 12th level. If the attacks could have been coordinated, you betcha that recklessness wasn't necessary at all, that's a pretty killer team.

Six seconds is a round. Are you suggesting they spend an entire round discussing?
Now, personally, I'm pretty sure they're at least about 15th level, but even so, they're in deep **** with a Pit Fiend. The CR on a Pit Fiend is 20, so the only way they were going to defeat it was with recklessness and/or sheer dumb luck.

And that would be part of why he is incompetent, because he doesn't appreciate the power of help.

She understands the game mechanics. She understands that the only way to defeat Xykon is with a small, high-level adventuring party, such as the Order of the Stick.

[AstralFire]

Six seconds is a round. Are you suggesting they spend an entire round discussing?
Now, personally, I'm pretty sure they're at least about 15th level, but even so, they're in deep **** with a Pit Fiend. The CR on a Pit Fiend is 20, so the only way they were going to defeat it was with recklessness and/or sheer dumb luck.

Talking is a free action, and I do believe that they have actually done a wink-and-nod regarding that in this very strip. Also no reason you can't talk while running to regroup, but you can talk on the offense.

And no, it wasn't. I believe that they're around 13 or 14th level (so a little lower than you think) but the CR rules expect you to be able to take CRs of your level +4, and frankly the CR rules tend to be vastly underrated by that point for melee only parties, and vastly over for parties with a caster or two. They had two.

She understands the game mechanics. She understands that the only way to defeat Xykon is with a small, high-level adventuring party, such as the Order of the Stick.

That's genre convention, not a game mechanic, that's Elan's specialty. He's convinced that it's true, that doesn't make it so.

[amuletts]

Good grief. V may or may not have one, but s/he's certainly turning into one.

LOL!

Personally I think Quarr will 'tempt' V, leading him further along the path of evil. I don't think Elan's decision to let him go was a good one, though I understand it. If V. was to have any chance of coming back from his dark place he needs his friends (whether he wants them or not) to be a constant moral compass. As a magic user he has high intelligence, but his wisdom is questionable.

However, being evil from now on doesn't mean he has to be a villain (at least not in the black and white sense) to the group. His goals are still going, more or less, in the same direction. My feeling is that when their paths cross he may do things to help them but use methods they find horrifying. It'll be a nice moral quandary. He's their friend and he's helping them, they NEED him, yet they *really* should do something about the evil acts - shouldn't they? Necessity is great for making characters of opposing alignments work together.

I think the comic right now is good (due to V), but it has been on a bit of a downer since Roy died. The players are stuck in sub-quests trying to get back to the main plot.

[SoC175]

Gosh! This will be a major plot element, for the fifty seconds it takes to Haley to dismiss the imbroglio! Or you base your prevision on a complete lack of communication?

If V wants to listen to her, wants to believe her.

Well, I suspect that Haley may want to rejoin Elan, which would leave V to choose between following, or going to all that effort to find Haley, and then just leave her.

I don't believe she does this out of special loyality to Haley, but just for her own ego. As soon as she proves that she's capable of finding Haley it becomes unimportant what happens with Haley afterwards

[McMurphy]

Panel 10 is the best document of V's exhaustion yet, I think. :D

[SPoD]

Funny comic, but if panel 6 of Elan/Hinjo is a subtle dig on the current US political situation, I have to say I'm disappointed with the Giant for the first time in many comics. Board ban aside, I come here to laugh and escape the real world, not be reminded of it.

Reference does not equal commentary. It's a phrase that is in the news these days, yes, which is why it's in the joke. It is not any sort of "dig" or whatever, the situations are completely different. It's roughly the same as when Haley had a "wardrobe malfunction" joke the day after the Janet Jackson / Super Bowl incident.

[Estovus]

Talking is a free action, and I do believe that they have actually done a wink-and-nod regarding that in this very strip. Also no reason you can't talk while running to regroup, but you can talk on the offense.

Talking is a free action, but at the DM's discretion, it can be a move action, a standard action, or even a full-round action. Discussing strategy is definitely a full-round action.

And no, it wasn't. I believe that they're around 13 or 14th level (so a little lower than you think) but the CR rules expect you to be able to take CRs of your level +4, and frankly the CR rules tend to be vastly underrated by that point for melee only parties, and vastly over for parties with a caster or two. They had two.

Nevertheless, it's a miracle none of the important characters died. One that they should thank V for.

That's genre convention, not a game mechanic, that's Elan's specialty. He's convinced that it's true, that doesn't make it so.

But it is true. Did you see any ordinary frontline soldiers killing Xykon's lookalikes? Or any other important enemy characters, for that matter? No, the PCs did. As always (and this is a genre convention, as you say), the redshirts are simply there to add spice to the plot. In reality, all that matters is the PCs.

[AstralFire]

Talking is a free action, but at the DM's discretion, it can be a move action, a standard action, or even a full-round action. Discussing strategy is definitely a full-round action.

Lots of things are at the DM's discretion. I would prefer to avoid throwing things randomly into the 'discretion' category.

Nevertheless, it's a miracle none of the important characters died. One that they should thank V for.

I'll half agree there. Durkon spent time - if your previous use of discretion is accurate - trying to talk strategy with Vaarsuvius. If V wasn't there, then they might not have wasted that time.

But it is true. Did you see any ordinary frontline soldiers killing Xykon's lookalikes? Or any other important enemy characters, for that matter? No, the PCs did. As always (and this is a genre convention, as you say), the redshirts are simply there to add spice to the plot. In reality, all that matters is the PCs.

Are you suggesting that Xykon and Redcloak wouldn't be any less of a threat without the army at their back? I find that highly improbable. So why is the OotS not helped at all by an army at theirs?

[Laurentio II]

Sitting down and thinking for a half-round about how to coordinate as a team rather than going about it slapdash-crazy with a Cleric trying to keep up with a handful of people running around and eating hits while the Wizard just flies about willy-nilly doing whatever he wants.

Ok, it's right on a general issue, but to the specific situation? I agree that a coordinated team is better that a bunch of individuals, but to achieve even a little synergy, there must be compatibility. You can't put oranges into the fuel tank to booster a car.

What would have been a viable strategy? The request of elevation from Hinjo made no sense from the begin. Hitting people on the chest or on a limb has the same effect in D&D. I suppose that it was just a way to use the Dwarven Headpult gag.

And anyway, is Vaarsuvius SUPPOSED to be able to raise Hinjo? If yes, is he able to do several time, that is enough time to let Hinjo kill the fiend, before the fiend realize that killing Vaarsuvius is the easiest strategy?

Actually, asking to Durkon to lower the fiend's saves was sensible. And worked. A plan that gives 2/8 chance to end the combat in a single round seems good to me, compared to one that gives chances to end it in, say, four rounds, losing the wizard life. Especially if you happen to be the wizard.

[AstralFire]

What would have been a viable strategy? The request of elevation from Hinjo made no sense from the begin. Hitting people on the chest or on a limb has the same effect in D&D. I suppose that it was just a way to use the Dwarven Headpult gag.

Author convention, the same as how Belkar one-shots things he couldn't possibly one-shot. Given that Hinjo is fairly intelligent and Durkon isn't an idiot either, I'd say it was necessary in this case to do damage.

And anyway, is Vaarsuvius SUPPOSED to be able to raise Hinjo? If yes, is he able to do several time, that is enough time to let Hinjo kill the fiend, before the fiend realize that killing Vaarsuvius is the easiest strategy?

Fly spell. "Oh, hey, Hinjo can fly now and doesn't need to waste time making leaping one-attack charges, not to mention no longer being bunched up on the ground for the fiend's AoE blasts!" Enlarge person, any number of buffs or debuffs to make the front-liner a bigger and bigger threat so V can blast with less notice from a farther distance. V's spellbook isn't ALL direct damage, though the likely low amount of buffs he carries and his strategem in general also point towards his self-centeredness screwing over his competency.

Actually, asking to Durkon to lower the fiend's saves was sensible.

That it was, though it took him longer than it had to. If he'd said that at the beginning, that could have been done two or three rounds earlier for all we know.

[garylian]

This was a nice setup strip for 600 and beyond.

Now, lets get back to completely dissecting a battle that took place a few strips ago!

[AstralFire]

This was a nice setup strip for 600 and beyond.

Now, lets get back to completely dissecting a battle that took place a few strips ago!

My thoughts on 599 were stated earlier. Good riddance.

[Zurpl]

Most frequent thought while reading this comic:

"I should've kept that dictionary tab open."

[B.I.T.T.]

Good comic.

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"Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." That's four words, isn't it?