What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

[grandpheonix]

Hey everyone! I had a thought- Miko kept talking about how she was the strongest paladin. Could you imagine if she never arrived in the throne room EXACTLY when she did? Like, what if she was 5 minutes late, or 10 minutes earlier? Shojo might have lived long enough to control the whole city during the siege.

Now, I know it went the way it did because story demanded it, but has the Giant ever talked about what would happen if it went the other way? And if not, do you have any thoughts and what could have been?

[MReav]

The problem is is that Miko is utterly convinced at this point that Roy is Xykon's agent. So unless they can drill it into her brain that Roy was telling the truth to the extent that Roy could tell the truth, they lose the ability to use the Order.

Though I'm now imagining Shojo ordering a big song and dance involving fake Geas magic.

Roy: Oh thank your twelve gods, they have released myself and my party from Xykon's evil magic and I am no longer serving as his unwitting slave. Now I will submit to your magic users to bind me to your service against my former master.

Spellcaster: geas [really just Magic Aura].



Also, how would Shojo command the army? As far as anyone was concerned, he's been a senile coot

[Teioh]

I don’t think command is the right word, but the other Nobles would be less likely to flee. And I assume this means Miko wouldn’t have messed up Soons plan, as she probably would’ve been killed by Xykon at that point.

So, yeah, Miko kept that plot a rolling

[woweedd]

Yeha, the defense of the city probably would have gone a lot better without Miko ****ing it up. Say what you will about Shojo, but, while Hinjo may be more inspiring, Shojo was better both at corralling the nobles and at appealing to the common man. I'm not sure if they could have TOTALLY repealed the invasion, but it's entirely possible that the hobgoblin's charge is cut off sooner then in the main universe, with the nobles lending their forces AND the deserters not fleeing. And, not to mention, if Redcloak gets bogged down before he can reach the throne room. That changes one thing considerably. Namely, while Xykon will probably still take down the Sapphire Guard easily, without Redcloak giving tactical advice and Turning/Rebuking Undead, the Ghost Martyrs will have him dead-to-rights, quite literally. Once he's out of commision, he'll be stuck back in his hidey-hole, and, if they manage to capture or kill Redcloak...Lights out for Xykon. It's not a total win, The Sapphire Guard are still destroyed utterly, even if a few Resurrections will go a long way towards rebuilding. but re-building will be a lot easier, and The Order can mvo eon to Girard's Gate.

[factotum]

I don't actually think the outcome would have been materially different. We have no evidence that Shojo was a better battle commander than Hinjo--I mean, he's a level 14 Aristocrat, getting into fights was totally not his main thing to do--and even if he *did* manage to keep the nobles on side, that's maybe a few thousand extra troops. Miko herself, most powerful paladin in the Guard or not, is still subject to the same problems that O-Chul pointed out to Haley in strip #417 when being attacked by thousands of hobgoblin mooks. Furthermore, having extra soldiers on the wall wouldn't stop Xykon doing exactly what he did and flying right in to the throne room, and there wouldn't be any extra troops in there because the people guarding it had to all be Sapphire Guard members.

[Teioh]

The biggest difference is, Miko would've been fighting Xykon. She would've died. Soon would come. Miko would be dead and unable to ruin things. Bye bye lich and Supreme Commander.

Combine that with Nobles staying on board, all those troops at sea would've been on the walls, plus their leader would be dead. The likelihood of the goblins having a long-term victory would be vastly reduced.

[paddyfool]

Let's see:
- There'd have been one more medium-high level defender (Miko herself, either in the throne room or on the wall).
- There'd have been a few thousand more troops courtesy of the nobles, and there'd be less infighting in the way of assassination attempts etc.
- Hinjo would probably have still been field commander
- Miko would not have been in position to mess things up again at the end
EDIT: Shojo might not have decided, as Hinjo did, to invite Tsukiko et al to help defend the city.

So overall, I expect this might have swung it.

[woweedd]

I don't actually think the outcome would have been materially different. We have no evidence that Shojo was a better battle commander than Hinjo--I mean, he's a level 14 Aristocrat, getting into fights was totally not his main thing to do--and even if he *did* manage to keep the nobles on side, that's maybe a few thousand extra troops. Miko herself, most powerful paladin in the Guard or not, is still subject to the same problems that O-Chul pointed out to Haley in strip #417 when being attacked by thousands of hobgoblin mooks. Furthermore, having extra soldiers on the wall wouldn't stop Xykon doing exactly what he did and flying right in to the throne room, and there wouldn't be any extra troops in there because the people guarding it had to all be Sapphire Guard members.

No, it wouldn't have. But it'd probably have delayed Redcloak quite a bit, and, without Redcloak Rebuking and giving advice, Xykon's chances of winning against the Ghost Martyrs, who he already would have lost to in canon were it not for Miko's timely intervention, go down drastically.

[Razade]

Do people forget that Xykon was on the ropes? That the Ghost Army had him dead to rights and it was only thanks to Miko destroying the gate gem that Xykon got away? The army was never the point of the assault. It was just to buy time for Xykon to get to the throne room. The Ghost Army would have beaten him if Miko hadn't gone down the path she went down.

The war would have been won without effective commanders on the Goblin side and the threat to the world and the Gates would be put to rest.

[Anymage]

Agreeing with the consensus here. There's a difference between how the main battle would go without all the complications from recently losing Shojo (the practical upshot would be slowing the hobgoblin advance somewhat and enabling more Azuirtes to escape, but not meaningfully changing the end result), and how the Soon vs. Xykon confrontation would have gone if someone hadn't run in and blown the gate.

[Peelee]

The army was never the point of the assault. It was just to buy time for Xykon to get to the throne room.

Eh, not quite. Reddie clearly didn't think they'd destroy it intentionally. Plus, the ritual takes weeks, IIRC. The army was pretty crucial.

[hroþila]

I don't actually think the outcome would have been materially different. We have no evidence that Shojo was a better battle commander than Hinjo--I mean, he's a level 14 Aristocrat, getting into fights was totally not his main thing to do--and even if he *did* manage to keep the nobles on side, that's maybe a few thousand extra troops. Miko herself, most powerful paladin in the Guard or not, is still subject to the same problems that O-Chul pointed out to Haley in strip #417 when being attacked by thousands of hobgoblin mooks. Furthermore, having extra soldiers on the wall wouldn't stop Xykon doing exactly what he did and flying right in to the throne room, and there wouldn't be any extra troops in there because the people guarding it had to all be Sapphire Guard members.

I think the potential contribution of those noble household troops is not to be sneered at. A few thousand extra troops might make all the difference considering that Azure City only had like 9,000 in the first place. Those household troops might well have had a level advantage on the regular army, too. There's also the issue of morale - a number of Azurite troops broke and ran for it, in no small part because they saw that the nobles weren't contributing. As for the extra troops in the throne room, well, there'd be Miko herself. I imagine she would have been a nice addition to the ghost martyr force.

[Heksefatter]

Let's see:
- There'd have been one more medium-high level defender (Miko herself, either in the throne room or on the wall).
- There'd have been a few thousand more troops courtesy of the nobles, and there'd be less infighting in the way of assassination attempts etc.
- Hinjo would probably have still been field commander
- Miko would not have been in position to mess things up again at the end
EDIT: Shojo might not have decided, as Hinjo did, to invite Tsukiko et al to help defend the city.

So overall, I expect this might have swung it.

This. I should also point out that O-Chul mentioned in strip 417 that Shojo's death and the fact that the reasons for it couldn't be shared with the troops led to severe morale problems.

So I could easily see how this could have turned the situation around.

[Aquillion]

The problem is is that Miko is utterly convinced at this point that Roy is Xykon's agent. So unless they can drill it into her brain that Roy was telling the truth to the extent that Roy could tell the truth, they lose the ability to use the Order.

Miko doesn't get a say in that. She might be upset, but Shojo can just hammer her over and over with the same "LAWFUL EVIDENCE" bit he did when she tried to execute Belkar in front of her. Xykon being alive isn't going to prove anything (Shojo knows he's a lich and knows exactly what happened.) Framed in those terms, Shojo insisting on trusting Roy (at least to the point of using him as soldier) is not, itself, going to be enough to make Miko break her oath.

If it does come up, he can also say that he'll have someone watch them closely but that right now the city needs every defender it can get; and that if they try to pull anything they can be charged with it afterwards.

And during the actual fight, Miko is going to be in the throne room anyway and Shojo know this. He has neither the obligation nor any reason to run the rest of his combat plans past her. Outside of her randomly getting (un)lucky and overhearing them scheming, she has no reason to know that Shojo is using the OOTS at all.

[martianmister]

Hinjo would arrest him.

[Snails]

Do people forget that Xykon was on the ropes? That the Ghost Army had him dead to rights and it was only thanks to Miko destroying the gate gem that Xykon got away? The army was never the point of the assault. It was just to buy time for Xykon to get to the throne room. The Ghost Army would have beaten him if Miko hadn't gone down the path she went down.

The war would have been won without effective commanders on the Goblin side and the threat to the world and the Gates would be put to rest.

Yes, the timing says Shojo did not have to do much better to have a chance to utterly defeat Xykon. Redcloak barely arrived in time to save Xykon from outright defeat by the Ghost Martyrs, but only temporarily. Xykon and Redcloak were both on the ropes and needed saving by Miko.

Even few thousand well-armed troops led a capable nobles could have held the breach for a long time, freeing V to help the Order mop up other problems. Shojo not dead could easily have persuaded Miko to not save Xykon, even if meant negotiating with Hinjo to get Miko to be useful somewhere else where she would not create problems.

Perhaps the real problem is killing Xykon at the wrong moment would just alert Redcloak to make a change of plans. But an Azure City victory would be nothing to sneeze at, even if less than permanent.

[BaronOfHell]

I think it is a nice idea that a bastion of good couldn't simply be overrun by team evil via amassing a huge army, and it was mainly because of internal struggles that Azure City fell.

Like someone else mentioned I also think it is a good point about Shojo perhaps not releasing Tsukiko, after all Hinjo being a paladin was probably not as skilled as Shojo when it came to judging character.

It was also mentioned (can't find it now, so can't quote) that Shojo perhaps couldn't get the nobles to join the battle, because a big battle is different from the daily politics of Azure City, and I can't disprove that. It is my opinion though that Shojo is a master manipulator and I wouldn't be surprised if he could pull it off... perhaps by convincing the majority of houses that it was their own idea or something similar.

and The Order can mvo eon to Girard's Gate.

But in your scenario where I understand it as Xykon being defeated, why would the Order continue looking for other gates?

[Dausuul]

Aside from the events in the throne room, I think this is where Shojo's death had the most impact. At the critical moment, with the hobgoblin army charging the breach, most of the defenders abandoned their posts and fled. Their dialog makes it clear that Shojo's absence, and the departure of the nobles, were the deciding factors. The few who stayed were overrun.

Now, to be clear, even if all of the soldiers had stayed, they could not have held the breach for long; Redcloak on his war mammoth would have crushed them. But Hinjo and the surviving members of the Order were racing for the breach at that very moment. Even a few rounds would have bought enough time for the cavalry to arrive. Hinjo, Haley, Elan, Durkon, and Belkar* together would almost certainly have been able to take down Redcloak, and then it would be the hobgoblins suffering a sudden morale crisis at the defeat of their Supreme Leader.

Plus, as others have pointed out, without Redcloak to help him or Miko to provide a last-minute distraction, Xykon dies in the throne room. And if the Order has slain Redcloak, they now have Xykon's phylactery, so it's curtains for everybody's favorite lich.

Ironically, however, the heroes winning at Azure City would have meant the end of the world. If Redcloak had died in that battle, there would no longer be a cleric of the Dark One capable of casting 9th-level spells. Thor's scheme to seal the rifts would be doomed, and the gods would have no choice but to return to their usual cycle of destruction and creation.

*Though Belkar would only be able to help if the Order engaged Redcloak before he passed inside the city. It's unlikely Belkar could have convinced Skullsy to attack his own creator.

[woweedd]

Aside from the events in the throne room, I think this is where Shojo's death had the most impact. At the critical moment, with the hobgoblin army charging the breach, most of the defenders abandoned their posts and fled. Their dialog makes it clear that Shojo's absence, and the departure of the nobles, were the deciding factors. The few who stayed were overrun.

Now, to be clear, even if all of the soldiers had stayed, they could not have held the breach for long; Redcloak on his war mammoth would have crushed them. But Hinjo and the surviving members of the Order were racing for the breach at that very moment. Even a few rounds would have bought enough time for the cavalry to arrive. Hinjo, Haley, Elan, Durkon, and Belkar* together would almost certainly have been able to take down Redcloak, and then it would be the hobgoblins suffering a sudden morale crisis at the defeat of their Supreme Leader.

Plus, as others have pointed out, without Redcloak to help him or Miko to provide a last-minute distraction, Xykon dies in the throne room. And if the Order has slain Redcloak, they now have Xykon's phylactery, so it's curtains for everybody's favorite lich.

Ironically, however, the heroes winning at Azure City would have meant the end of the world. If Redcloak had died in that battle, there would no longer be a cleric of the Dark One capable of casting 9th-level spells. Thor's scheme to seal the rifts would be doomed, and the gods would have no choice but to return to their usual cycle of destruction and creation.

*Though Belkar would only be able to help if the Order engaged Redcloak before he passed inside the city. It's unlikely Belkar could have convinced Skullsy to attack his own creator.

In fairness, at this point, Redcloak isn’t able to cast 9th level spells. Plus, not like he’s the only Cleric of The Dark One.

[understatement]

In fairness, at this point, Redcloak isn’t able to cast 9th level spells. Plus, not like he’s the only Cleric of The Dark One.

He's probably the highest-level one closest to getting ninths. ("probably" as in the most powerful cleric in this world)

Also, Miko would've been in the throne room and her ghost would've made a beeline for the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle. That fight would've been even awesomer.

[Snails]

Ironically, however, the heroes winning at Azure City would have meant the end of the world. If Redcloak had died in that battle, there would no longer be a cleric of the Dark One capable of casting 9th-level spells. Thor's scheme to seal the rifts would be doomed, and the gods would have no choice but to return to their usual cycle of destruction and creation.

Only sort of. The doom clock gets re-set or at least stopped when there is not immediate threat to the Gates. The Dark One still exists, so it is possible for him to have help. Maybe. It is inconvenient to not have Redcloak around, but it is not the only path forward for Thor.

[Dausuul]

In fairness, at this point, Redcloak isn’t able to cast 9th level spells.

No, but he's right on the cusp, and almost certainly far ahead of any other goblin cleric.

Only sort of. The doom clock gets re-set or at least stopped when there is not immediate threat to the Gates. The Dark One still exists, so it is possible for him to have help. Maybe. It is inconvenient to not have Redcloak around, but it is not the only path forward for Thor.

Slowed down, not stopped. Nothing made with only three divine colors can hold the Snarl indefinitely. Since the Dark One was not involved in creating the gates, they were made with three colors, and are thus doomed to fail. Even if all five gates remained intact, sooner or later the Snarl would burst free.

I suppose, depending on how long the gates could hold, it might have been possible for another high-level cleric of the Dark One to appear, or the Dark One might start answering Loki's chat messages. High-level clerics are rare in OotS-world, though. At one point, Haley expresses doubt whether any 17th-level clerics exist at all, even for the gods who have established pantheons and churches dating back to the creation of the world. And if Azure City had survived, the rebuilt Sapphire Guard would have renewed their crusade against the Dark One and his followers.

It's all speculation, of course, but I would bet against another cleric reaching the necessary level before time ran out.

[hroþila]

The thing is, killing Redcloak, thus stripping the Dark One of his main gun, and then suggesting cooperation from an obvious position of power where it would be clear that the Good guys aren't just compromising because they're weak might have a greater chance of succeeding (on paper) than whatever we end up with. And with Redcloak and Xykon gone, there's no rush, so that's a lot of possibilities suddenly opening up even if Redcloak's successor isn't strong enough.

Edit: I wouldn't be surprised if Redcloak's cooperation, if it is secured, will only be secured after he's more or less defeated, thus creating a very similar scenario.

[Vinyadan]

Would Shojo have been in the throne room, when Xykon got there?

Would Roy have been allowed to get killed by jumping Xykon?

Would the High Priest have summoned something under Shojo's orders?

[Peelee]

Would Shojo have been in the throne room, when Xykon got there?

Would Roy have been allowed to get killed by jumping Xykon?

Would the High Priest have summoned something under Shojo's orders?

No, yes, unknown. Why would Shojo be in the place he knows is the ultimate target, where they have their biggest reinforcements? Why would he be in the middle of the battle like Hinjo, when he's a non-warrior octagenarian, to stop Roy?

[Snails]

Shojo's main contribution would be to direct and keep an eye on the nobles. He is not known to be particularly qualified to direct the army, but there is no particular reason he need be in the throne room to do so, regardless. He does know that the throne room is the real target.

Does Shojo know about the Ghost Martyrs? I was thinking yes, but it is possible he did not.

As for Roy, if Hinjo did not think it necessary to advise Roy to not go Solo Hero, why would we expect Shojo to know better?

[Peelee]

Does Shojo know about the Ghost Martyrs? I was thinking yes, but it is possible he did not.

I don't think it's possible he didn't; he was part of Azure City's ruling family, after all, and for a long time before Hinjo would have been told.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The biggest difference is, Miko would've been fighting Xykon. She would've died. Soon would come. Miko would be dead and unable to ruin things. Bye bye lich and Supreme Commander.

Combine that with Nobles staying on board, all those troops at sea would've been on the walls, plus their leader would be dead. The likelihood of the goblins having a long-term victory would be vastly reduced.

More or less. I'd give "the nobles aren't trying to commit a coup" a bit more weight than you did, and mention the possibility that Miko could find some way to screw things up if she was on the front lines, but that's it.

Hinjo would arrest him.

The original post mentioned that Miko simply didn't arrive at the right time to hear the damning words. Since she and Hinjo arrived together, and Hinjo came specifically because Miko asked him to, it's fair to assume that he wouldn't hear any more than she did.
If Miko was instead distracted by something else along the way, but still Hinjo still arrived at the right time to overhear the damning evidence, then things change. With Shojo's arrest, the balance which Azure City was built on would be shaken, if not utterly destroyed. Moreover, Shojo's public crimes would provide a much clearer pretext for everything from ignoring orders to outright rebellion; the coups and politicking which sapped Azure City's strength would be far worse.
I could easily see infighting, desertion, and general chaos leaving this Azure City far weaker than it was in the main comic. (You already get -1 stability when your ruler dies, you don't need to find extra destabilizing factors.) This might end up not having much effect other than the hobgoblin armies suffering fewer casualties, or it might lead to more high-level supporters of Xykon (e.g, the three fakes) making it past the outer defenses, giving Xykon the edge he needed to persevere against the ghost-martyrs. Or maybe the ghost-martyrs are enough to kill Team Evil on their own and the Sapphire Guard (especially Miko) was just holding them back; you've got a lot of flexibility in how you write this fanfic.

Also, how would Shojo command the army? As far as anyone was concerned, he's been a senile coot

And even if he stripped away that act, you have a man who spent forty years* and fourteen levels ruling the city by force of politics and intrigue, not martial prowess or cunning tactics. He'd be better off delegating the command to...basically the group of people who commanded the army in the actual conflict.

As for the extra troops in the throne room, well, there'd be Miko herself.

1. I don't see her being left in the throne room, both because she'd be impatient to smite the forces of darkness and because...well...we already know the Sapphire Guard likes to send her on missions to places where she can't bother them, and getting her away from the castle seems like a logical extension of that.
2. Considering how infernally pear-shaped things went after Miko entered the throne room in the actual story...that's probably a good thing.

Miko doesn't get a say in that. She might be upset, but Shojo can just hammer her over and over with the same "LAWFUL EVIDENCE" bit he did when she tried to execute Belkar in front of her. Xykon being alive isn't going to prove anything (Shojo knows he's a lich and knows exactly what happened.) Framed in those terms, Shojo insisting on trusting Roy (at least to the point of using him as soldier) is not, itself, going to be enough to make Miko break her oath.

Let's review how well pointing to the laws of the land worked in the actual comic...

Ironically, however, the heroes winning at Azure City would have meant the end of the world. If Redcloak had died in that battle, there would no longer be a cleric of the Dark One capable of casting 9th-level spells. Thor's scheme to seal the rifts would be doomed, and the gods would have no choice but to return to their usual cycle of destruction and creation.

Though the vote probably wouldn't be called as quickly, since nobody's destroying all the gates. This might give The Dark One enough time to train a new cleric to 17th level...though he would need to arrange a commando raid to reclaim the Crimson Mantle, or make a new one (if e.g. the Sapphire Guard destroyed it as soon as they got their hands on it).


*Figure calculated by means of...it sounds like Shojo's level. I like assonance.

Spoiler: Unimportant Asides

Show

Plus, the ritual takes weeks, IIRC. The army was pretty crucial.

I was under the impression that the ritual wouldn't take all that long, it just requires lots of preparation (e.g, finding a stable Gate).

But in your scenario where I understand it as Xykon being defeated, why would the Order continue looking for other gates?

More to the point, why would such a prophecy have been given in a world where Xykon would be defeated in Azure City?
I wonder how the Oracle saying "Neither, you moron" would affect the plot. Roy would figure out that Xykon was going for Azure City, and that he'd either be defeated there or get everything he needed. This might prevent needless detours and would definitely fill the Order (and everyone else aware of the prophecy) with the determination needed to make sure it was the first one. Who knows how that could affect things? (Probably to lead them either to victory or a crushing defeat, given ~~the prophecy~~.)

In fairness, at this point, Redcloak isn’t able to cast 9th level spells.

He couldn't at the time, but he can now.

[Ruck]

In fairness, at this point, Redcloak isn’t able to cast 9th level spells.

He most certainly is.

edit: Unless "at this point" refers to the Battle of Azure City; even if it does, Redcloak is, by all indicators, the longest-lived and highest-leveled High Priest of the Dark One that has ever existed, so he's still the best bet for finding such a thing.

[B. Dandelion]

Plus, the ritual takes weeks, IIRC. The army was pretty crucial.

I was under the impression that the ritual wouldn't take all that long, it just requires lots of preparation (e.g, finding a stable Gate).

Xykon says weeks in 416.

: The only reason you and I aren't just sneaking in and grabbing the stupid thing is that it can't be moved, and they're likely to get upset if we loiter in their throne room for the few weeks it will take to complete the rituals.