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2023-02-03, 12:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What triggers some people about Pathfinder?
I miss Touch AC, but not Flat-footed AC. No idea why.
Frankly, I don't think having a couple or even three to four fiddly numbers in a game is bad, as long as they make sense and don't particularly interact with one another in unexpected ways. And Advantage comes with its' own set of issues. For instance, I find it highly unintuitive that 5e Advantage/Disadvantage doesn't stack to the extent that having three sources of Adv and one source of Disadv means you roll normally instead of with Advantage. I also find it rather unintuitive that Advantage/Disadvantage doesn't actually impact your ability - if you roll a double 20 on disadvantage, you have still performed as well as you would normally.
That part of PF2 is actually pretty fine - you've got circumstance, status, proficiency and item bonuses/penalties. Proficiency and Item pretty much never changes in combat, and keeping track of two mods isn't that hard.
Both are very relevant criticisms of PF2. The options are there, they just don't matter all that much and aren't exciting to use. It's balanced to the point at which it stops being fun. There's almost nothing to look forward to if your enjoyment of the game doesn't boil down to "oh boy I get +20% to potential DPR next level".
About the only cool and generally useful+powerful option I've picked up over a year of play was Soulforger, which is GM-dependent (marked "uncommon", so you can't declare that you're taking it without GM approval), and all that does is allow you to manifest armor/weapons, and, once per day, grant yourself a buff usually equivalent to a 1-3 level spell. For several feats.
And as for action taxing, it's simply ridiculous at times. Trust me, versatile weapons plus free hand have it much better than 2H or TWF users - they, at least, can fight without going "ok I can't do a combat maneuver without a hand free, so that's a guaranteed loss of an action".Last edited by Ignimortis; 2023-02-03 at 12:32 AM.
Elezen Dark Knight avatar by Linklele
Favourite classes: Beguiler, Scout, Warblade, 3.5 Warlock, Harbinger (PF:PoW).
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2023-02-03, 12:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What triggers some people about Pathfinder?
Probably just that the difference between regular AC and touch AC really mattered and the difference between regular AC and Flat-footed AC generally didn't. Even when you were talking about the few monsters that had a giant DEX bonus, it was still smaller than armor bonuses at the same level.
For instance, I find it highly unintuitive that 5e Advantage/Disadvantage doesn't stack to the extent that having three sources of Adv and one source of Disadv means you roll normally instead of with Advantage. I also find it rather unintuitive that Advantage/Disadvantage doesn't actually impact your ability - if you roll a double 20 on disadvantage, you have still performed as well as you would normally.
Both are very relevant criticisms of PF2.
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2023-02-03, 12:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What triggers some people about Pathfinder?
And perhaps because Touch AC has a lot more interactions with gameplay - there are several abilities focused around targeting/improving Touch AC in particular, but Flat-footed AC is usually just "your AC minus Dex", and almost nothing targets it specifically, it just applies at some points.
I've taught several absolute newcomers how to play 3.5. None were too put off by starting character abilities, despite all of them playing as some sort of "advanced" class (there were a Duskblade, a Binder, a Warblade...).
Advantage/Disadvantage is only simpler than 3e mods when you do work in all the rules of 5e about them not stacking and so on, and not particularly so at any rate.
My general take is that PF2 is for people who want to play "balanced 5e" mixed, maybe, with some 4e and early 3e sensibilities. It has some high points - mostly in how readable the rules are and how everything is defined pretty well, so you don't have to guess what, say, a Flesh to Stone spell actually does on a mechanical level.
In fact, PF2 has many of the same issues as 5e feel-wise: quite grounded (except for everyone this time around), too focused on basic level 1 mechanics/gameplay that never change for many characters, stuck in a limbo of "we want resource management, but not for everyone", etc. However, 5e has a larger in-built tolerance for imbalanced stuff (mathematically and ability-wise). For instance, 5e's expectations do not exactly fall apart if a character consistently deals double the damage of a similar character (martial vs martial). PF2 is likely to consider this an irrevocable breach of balance (unless a Fighter does it, then it's fine). 5e can, with a squint, take a character who has access to at-will flight pretty early on - PF2 won't.Last edited by Ignimortis; 2023-02-03 at 01:26 AM.
Elezen Dark Knight avatar by Linklele
Favourite classes: Beguiler, Scout, Warblade, 3.5 Warlock, Harbinger (PF:PoW).
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2023-02-03, 06:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What triggers some people about Pathfinder?
Speaking of dice pool system, I'm not particularly a fan. Any time I see it, I roll my eyes. It's not necessarily because of the pool itself, more about the die size increasing that is common with it. It's a small, almost silly thought, but I don't like the idea of leveling up from 1-20 and still being able to hit a 1. I generally work in a stacking dice instead.
Last edited by animorte; 2023-02-03 at 06:26 AM.
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2023-02-03, 06:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What triggers some people about Pathfinder?
I'd say it's obvious that 5E has fast gameplay as one of its design principles, and 3E/4E/PF do not. One of the ways this shows is that the latter games slow down combat with this issue; and in 5E that's almost always a blanket "adv or disadv" which simply plays much faster.
I do try to steer players away from feats or spells like "+1 damage against giant-type" or "+2 damage if enemy is below half HP" or "+1 perception while standing next to an ally", but the fact that I need to do that in the first place means there's unnecessary complexity here.
Of note, PF2 also doesn't have fast gameplay as a design principle, and is arguably the worst of the lot when it comes to conditions ("sickened 3" instead of flat-out sickened), as well as weapons with stuff like "+1 damage on each subsequent hit".Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
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2023-02-03, 07:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What triggers some people about Pathfinder?
I do agree that it's unnecessary complexity, but what's worse is that it's not even a fun number to remember. If it were double damage vs targets below half HP, every player would remember that by heart and that would reduce complexity as well. Nobody forgets about GMW in 5e, do they?
In that, 5e made the right choice: less choices, but more impactful choices. Not as much as I'd like, but better than a lot of stupid +1 and +2 feats.Elezen Dark Knight avatar by Linklele
Favourite classes: Beguiler, Scout, Warblade, 3.5 Warlock, Harbinger (PF:PoW).
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2023-02-03, 07:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What triggers some people about Pathfinder?
With regard to 3e's complexity, this is along the lines of my thinking -- particularly experienced groups (which presumably will have grown into the complexity and gotten used to it) might end up with some very complex interactions, but plenty of groups will look like those old 3e playtests that the internet likes to laugh about, even when their characters are pretty high level. There's definitely a lot more to learn, but that doesn't mean that you can't learn at your own pace.
On the other hand, it's kind of telling that "the internet likes to laugh about" those old 3e playtest reports that showcased simple gameplay. And while the less-fun parts that people complain about might not be the whole game, they can be a big part of playing 'well'. And if a game tells me that I have to sacrifice my fun in order to feel like I'm playing well, then it's failed pretty horribly.
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2023-02-03, 07:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What triggers some people about Pathfinder?
Generally how I look at it is 5e doesn’t demand much time but it doesn’t get me close to where I want to be. PF2e demands time and gets me nowhere. 3.5e and PF1 demand lots of time but they can produce what I want and it’s far easier to smooth down the pointy edges rather than build something where there’s nothing. If I’m going to build up, it’s going to be my own system with hookers and blackjack. Then there’s freeform on the side...
If all rules are suggestions what happens when I pass the save?
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2023-02-03, 08:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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2023-02-03, 08:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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2023-02-03, 08:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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2023-02-03, 08:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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2023-02-03, 08:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What triggers some people about Pathfinder?
I just like that becoming good at a skill is not about just adding various stackable bonuses from various sources and instead mean actual investment. I like the idea of skill feats and them becoming pretty central (and not competing with regular feats most of the time). Meaning that ability in a skill naturally takes on different forms. I also like how the system gives proper meaning to the various skill levels.
Last edited by Satinavian; 2023-02-03 at 08:50 AM.
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2023-02-03, 09:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What triggers some people about Pathfinder?
I won't lie, I like that IDEA as well; one of my favorite systems uses a similarly less "fiddly" progression (in Savage Worlds the die just goes up a step when you get better at something), but I always found the execution of it in PF2E very lacking.
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2023-02-03, 09:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What triggers some people about Pathfinder?
I think that's the fundamental point of contention in a nutshell. 'I do this for my job, so what's the problem' is battling with 'why would I want to do something people do for their jobs during my elfgame?'
[All of this is preemptive 'IMO'] Look, again, with some exceptions*, none of these tasks are too hard to do. I don't think I've seen any technical or mental-mechanics action required in a TTRPG that I think most anyone who would be interested in TTRPGs couldn't do. Certainly not in any of the D&Ds or D&D-alikes. Hero System occasionally has multiplying 15xpower level x (1.0+.25+.5+1.25+.75)/1.0+1.25+2.75) or something like that (mid-game, if you have to recalculate something after a drain or boost), and Traveller and Fatal each have a single piece of algebra or calculus or something in them (GURPS 3e Vehicles also has a cubed-root exactly once, and it's widely mocked as complexity-without-purpose). The fundamental question is whether people find this both fun and necessary. When people say it is 'too hard,' they do not mean 'too hard to do,' but rather, 'too hard to bother with.'
*the games are for most ages, and I certainly don't want to gatekeep the game from those who find mathematics challenging
That's certainly been my experience with what I will call the 'gamer spouse*' community. Those who tried playing alongside the dedicated gamer to spend more time with them/get what they are doing/maybe enjoy for themselves and then have a shared interest tried for a while with 3e/pf and then mostly found other things to do during game night. With 5e, more have taken to the game long-term.
*sometimes S.O. instead, or parents/siblings/etc.
And I have to agree with PheonixPhyre that this is a lot about how the numbers pull the game towards a focus on the mechanics/the game UI layer, when many people are going to care more about who their paladin talks to or what their thief finds in the treasure chest in the ghoul-crypt, rather than how to calculate their AC vs. said ghouls. It's not really PF vs. 5e that this evokes to me, but PF vs TSR-era D&D. In many ways, the rules of TSR D&D/AD&D are more arcane than any of the modern games, but for the most part (1E initiative arguments notwithstanding) they seemed to fade into the background more, and let the state that you were playing an adventurer in a situation shine through and let the underlying mechanics stay in the background. I think that's what a significant portion of gamers want, who do not find it with 3e/PF.
All these things are going to be annecdotal, since there isn't really a single reason why people do/don't like things, but I'd still stake a claim that the fiddly numbers bit are a nontrivial part of why some people who are okay with 5e do not like 3e/PF.
An individual has an AC, a touch AC, a flat-footed AC, a flat-footed touch AC, a vs.-brilliant-energy AC, a vs.-brilliant-energy flat-footed AC, not a vs.-brilliant-energy touch AC since they both exclude the same bonuses. If you get hit with a dex-draining effect or switch out armors or are affected by a given AC-enhancing spell, you have to know the rules on which types of bonuses apply to which and re-calculate for any of them where it does.
The combat modifiers table is definitely more complex than in 4e and 5e, but the underlying logic is fairly simple.
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2023-02-03, 09:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What triggers some people about Pathfinder?
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2023-02-03, 09:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What triggers some people about Pathfinder?
I would second Satinavian's opinion. I do not like the basic math of the game, and this includes how skills often work, but the skills are probably the best part of PF2 (see: most improved compared to competitors present and past). Skills get several levels of proficiency, and gated behind those levels of proficiency are skill feats that allow actually amazing feats of usage. See: Athletics getting a level 15 skill feat that basically transforms your high jump formula into your long jump formula (so you can leap dozens of feet high) and your long jump formula extends even further, so you can jump a couple hundred feet far. It's not exactly epic and it could be online earlier, but it's still head and shoulders above the usual raw deal that skills get.
Furthermore, skill proficiency points and skill feats are entirely separate resources from the rest of the game, so you do not feel pressured (usually) to sacrifice utility and flavour for power. There are a couple exceptions, and several outright trap feats, but it's something that can be fixed in a few hours of work rather than a whole system rewrite.Elezen Dark Knight avatar by Linklele
Favourite classes: Beguiler, Scout, Warblade, 3.5 Warlock, Harbinger (PF:PoW).
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2023-02-03, 09:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What triggers some people about Pathfinder?
If all rules are suggestions what happens when I pass the save?
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2023-02-03, 09:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What triggers some people about Pathfinder?
If only the pf2e skill system didn't also come with proficiency gates on even having the chance to make certain checks or clear hazards past level 5 or 6 I might like it more. Auto failing a check because it's not one of your 3 boosted skills or because your class is on a bad perception track isn't my idea of good design.
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2023-02-03, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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2023-02-03, 10:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What triggers some people about Pathfinder?
I love the concept of this, and it has seen some amazing implementations in other games like Exalted and Aberrant; the problem is that in PF2's execution, the overwhelming majority of skill feats are about as far from "amazing" as you can get.
For example, PF2 skill feats include the ability to get cryptic hints from a religious book (how is that even a feat?!), or the ability to ask enemies in combat to stand down (and the ability spells out that they might refuse).Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2023-02-03, 10:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What triggers some people about Pathfinder?
Which also brings up the air-breathing mermaid issue...except baked into the cake and very much intended. Unless you have those (high level IIRC) feats, you can't get even cryptic hints from a religious book or ask enemies in combat to stand down.
It's a game of buttons. Have button, press button. Don't have button? Can't do thing. That's part of what I meant by it being much more mechanics-forward. You're playing the rules, piloting them to where you need to be, rather than participating in the fiction with the rules as an abstraction layer, a UI of sorts. The rules come first, the fiction comes later. To the detriment of the fiction.Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
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2023-02-03, 10:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What triggers some people about Pathfinder?
It's actually more the Rumormonger problem writ large. Rumormonger is one of the most widely mocked features in the game, because of how useless and stupid it is.
They decided to build an entire skill system around Rumormonger-tier abilities. Baffling.
Spoiler: RumormongerRumormonger is a Rogue talent that allows a Rogue to spread rumors. With a baffling number of restrictions and caveats, to boot.
Not only does this implicitly mean that other characters CANNOT spread rumors, it means that spreading rumors is slow and mostly useless, being limited to 10th level and above Rogues who can only do so a few times per week and takes a full week of in-game time to accomplish.
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2023-02-03, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What triggers some people about Pathfinder?
Last edited by lesser_minion; 2023-02-03 at 11:45 AM.
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2023-02-03, 11:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What triggers some people about Pathfinder?
PF1 has a lot better rules support for Downtime activities than PF2 does. I also much prefer PF1 skill system to PF2 as in PF1 you can be decent at a lot of things as you level up but in PF2 you are only an expert in certain things as the bonus is mostly due to your level, not how you allocated skill points.
On another topic, I want to point out that complexity in character creation does not always lead to complexity in play. One of my favorite games (Hero system/Champions) has a VERY complex character creation system. However, playing the game is pretty simple and intuitive. (Unless you have a variable power pool).
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2023-02-03, 11:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What triggers some people about Pathfinder?
Even when you disagree, a good way to present that is "huh, that's not my experience, can you give an example?" and then try to understand and accept what the person is saying.
Offering ways around the issue, or different perspectives, can be fine, too, but it's generally best to not just invalidate the opinions of others."Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"
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2023-02-03, 11:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What triggers some people about Pathfinder?
I didn't say you didn't get anything. I was asking if that's what you thought others were doing (not getting things), based on your comment, "the underlying logic is fairly simple."
I'm spinning it? What are you talking about? I said nothing about anything coming out of nowhere. It's an example. An example of a spot where the game gets fiddly. Different ACs in general, much less brilliant energy, are simply an example of fiddly-detail numbers, which was germane to the discussion at hand when I made it.Last edited by Willie the Duck; 2023-02-03 at 11:42 AM.
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2023-02-03, 11:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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2023-02-03, 11:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What triggers some people about Pathfinder?
My take on reading the PF2 book was that I had probably missed the Improved Shoe Tying feat (reduces Shoe Tying to a single action), and the Shoe Tying Savant feat that lets you add your Int modifier instead of your Dex to your Shoe Tying check.
I'm joking of course, but only just.Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
When they shot him down on the highway,
Down like a dog on the highway,And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.
Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.
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2023-02-03, 12:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What triggers some people about Pathfinder?
Oh, for sure, a lot of feats are kinda bad. I expect that from PF2 and thus am not underwhelmed as people looking from the outside might be. There are some quite nice ones, like Cat Fall, though. Or Underwater Marauder.
Or...uhhh...yeah, okay, a lot of them are either taxes (Intimidating Glare? Menacing Prowess?) or kinda bad (Scare to Death sounds cool, and then you realize it has so many tags and failure points that you can't use it against anyone but some low-level enemies that aren't exactly worth the effort). Some are plain bad, like Armor Assist (either we count time in rounds, and thus the reduction isn't relevant, or we count time in minutes and the reduction doesn't matter much).
But the concept is already much better than whatever was previously in the game. It just needs actual fantastical abilities that you can't see someone get just by rolling really high. And maybe drop the gap between Trained and Expert feats - they're one level away, dammit. Just have Trained (humanly possible, but still incredible and uncommon), Master (slightly superhuman, clearly fantastical, on par with lower-level spells), Legendary (outright superhuman, eclipses low-level spells) feats accessible at, say, 1, 7 and 13 respectively.
The issue with PF2 is 1) math 2) it being VERY afraid to let loose and let people be good or amazing at things instead of being passable. Everything needs to be balanced and any boosts need to hew close to default instead of having immediately noticeable impact. Skill feats are no exception. I figure you could build a very fun game out of PF2 if you ditched some of the math issues (including the main "crit on a 10+ difference" mechanic) and...rewrote all the classes and feats to be more powerful and impactful.
The proficiency gates are quite lenient. There are no skills that have Expert or higher trained actions. Most actions that anyone can do are considered untrained skills.
As for autofailing checks, it's more of an issue with the overall math and the desire to promote "party builds" instead of individual capability - in a typical party of four with one skill specialist (I'd rant about how they're bad for these games, but not here) will have 15 total skills covered, which is about all the skills in the game with only a couple missing.
Personally, though, I think that PF2 needed to take a leaf out of 4e's book and add half level to stuff you aren't trained in.
That would be in line with PF2's design, but not exactly. Shoe Tying Savant would give you a +2 to your Shoe Tying check if your INT is 16 or higher. You still need to keep your DEX up to tie current-level shoes, but it's almost as if you have DEX maxed.Last edited by Ignimortis; 2023-02-03 at 12:16 PM.
Elezen Dark Knight avatar by Linklele
Favourite classes: Beguiler, Scout, Warblade, 3.5 Warlock, Harbinger (PF:PoW).