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2020-08-15, 01:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-08-15, 02:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time
But, the Mandalorians are introduced as being Bobba’s people! That would be like if Obi-WAN turned out not to be a Jedi! Also I can’t tell if your misspelling of « George » is intentional.
But they haven’t left, have they? The neutral worlds are still part of the Republic?Last edited by Fyraltari; 2020-08-15 at 02:15 PM.
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2020-08-15, 02:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time
Boba's armour was Mandalorian in the TESB novel, though the name itself didn't appear till tie-in material. It wasn't so clear if he was.
A battered and tarnished chrome-colored droid named IG-88 was also with the group, standing next to the notorious Boba Fett. A human bounty hunter, Fett was known for his extremely ruthless methods. He was dressed in a weapon-covered, armored spacesuit, the kind worn by a group of evil warriors defeated by the Jedi Knights during the Clone Wars. A few braided scalps completed his unsavory image. The very sight of Boba Fett sent a shudder of revulsion through the admiral.
Thus, in an early TCW episode (Season 2?) a Mandalorian says:
"Jango Fett was a common bounty hunter. How he acquired that armour is beyond me."Last edited by hamishspence; 2020-08-15 at 02:33 PM.
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2020-08-15, 02:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time
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2020-08-15, 02:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time
That's the episode, I just reviewed, but in context it's also pretty clear that Almec and Satine are downplaying the violent elements still present in Mando society to a point that strains credibility.
But then what's the point in Dooku wanting Death Watch controlled Mandalore to join the Separatists?Forum Wisdom
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2020-08-15, 03:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time
Last edited by Peelee; 2020-08-15 at 03:05 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-08-15, 03:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-08-15, 03:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time
Last edited by Fyraltari; 2020-08-15 at 03:19 PM.
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2020-08-16, 10:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time
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2020-08-16, 10:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time
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2020-08-16, 10:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-08-16, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time
The neutral systems are defined by their unwillingness to enter the war. Changing that, even if he goes after the council, would basically require a military overthrow of each planet's governments. If he subverts the council to get them to enter the war, they would just ignore the councilmembers and put different ones in place.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-08-16, 10:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time
If Death Watch are happy to join the separatists that is good for the seperatists (one more system) - that might be seperate from the independent systems being considered a threat.
For example 'Seperatist System 42' might be looking at a costly war with The Republic and decide that they should break with the Seperatists and merely declare non-violent independance - the independant systems offer a model for how to be an independent system and possible a group they can join to have some protection, if The Republic accepts that then the entire seperatist movement is in doubt.
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2020-08-16, 11:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-08-16, 01:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time
I doubt Lucas had much to do with Mandalorian lore either way.
How could they make Obi's death look like an accident if the mine was supposedly shut down? So, our investigating Jedi wandered into the mine and started playing with the crushing machines?
Dooku wants to trigger a Republic invasion of Mandalore so he can say, 'look, the Republic doesn't respect your neutrality, I will come in and save you'
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2020-08-16, 10:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time
Regarding the thing about neutral systems, I would point out that such a thing has historical precedent within the past 200 years: the state of Kentucky elected to remain a part of the Union but declared itself neutral in the US Civil War, and its government remained officially neutral until General Polk occupied Columbus.
As to the suggestion that such neutrality is treasonous, that really depends on how power is shared between the galactic and system governments under the Republic - there are certainly real-world governmental models under which it could be the local government's right to decline to participate in the war - and I would further point out that a similar argument can be made regarding conscientious objectors.
Beyond that, depending on how the laws of the Republic are set up, the legality of the war to crush the Separatists may be open to question, especially as the war was to appearances initiated by the Jedi rather than by an act of the Senate or by an overt hostile act undertaken by the Separatists against the Republic or a member state which did not intend to secede. The government may not like it, but it is not treasonous to refuse to support it in acting illegally against its own member states - though it may very well be unwise, even if the government cannot afford to retaliate for the perceived disloyalty immediately.
As to whether or not the existence of neutral systems breaks continuity, it's hard to say; I certainly don't recall any mention of neutral systems in the Prequel Trilogy, but on the other hand the Military Creation Act (MCA) appears to have been contentious and only a very naive observer could believe that the army which invaded Geonosis could have been raised in the time between the passage of the MCA and the army's arrival over Geonosis; furthermore, the Jedi do not appear to have the express authorization of the Senate for their actions on Geonosis, nor is it clear that they even informed the Senate of what they were doing until after it was far too late for the Senate to do anything about it. Given that, I can see where 'neutral' Republic member systems might come from and where they might have legal basis for their neutrality.
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2020-08-16, 10:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time
It's important to note that actual members of the CIS claimed 'neutrality' throughout the Clone Wars and were even allowed to retain representation in the Senate during the conflict. The key figure here being Lott Dod, the Senator representing the Trade Federation who is shown directly taking orders from Dooku on multiple occasions but was somehow still a Senator in good standing. The 'neutrality' espoused by the CNS was much, much less contentious than that.
CNS neutrality was mostly an economic matter. Specifically, they wanted to avoid paying taxes to fund the war effort and also wanted to retain the right to conduct free trade with systems that had declared for the CIS (many faced severe economic hardship otherwise). Because the Clone Wars was primarily (especially in the Disney Canon) fought by proxy forces, the contribution of most systems to the conflict was entirely economic. Allegiance, therefore, was largely a matter of which side a system sent its checks too, and the CNS was comprised of systems who basically didn't want to send them to anyone.
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2020-09-04, 05:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time
Sorry I haven't posted one of these in a while, I had to deal with a lot of stuff, nothing serious but stressful and time consuming so I haven't really had the time or energy to write a few paragraphs of review. Anyway,
Season 2, Episode 13: Voyage of Temptation
Spoiler: Recap
We start where we last left off as Anakin and Obi-Wan escort Satine to Coruscant to "plead her case" not sure if it's convincing the Senate she intends to stay neutral or to stop the war. Both, probably. Our Jedi duo order some clones to keep an eye out for Death Watch, probably backed by Separatists and head out to the reception area where Satine is entertaining her guests, the advisor guy from the last episode is apparently the senator for Mandalore: Tal Merrik. Obi-Wan basically confess to Anakin he and Satine used to be a couple way back when. Also present are Padmé's rodian "uncle", Orn Free Tah and a human Senator. Satine is talking about how she's the designated regent of 1,500 systems and thousands of worlds (huh?) and that war is an affront to life. Obi-wan claims that a good offense is the best defense (how unjedi-like). This earns him an introduction as a "collection of half-truths and hyperboles." Point Satine! They argue for a bit about war and pacifism (still weird to see Obi-Wan on the war side) with Satine calling out the Jedi on their militarization. Also Obi-wan calls Anakin "Master skywalker". Arrrh. Satine and Obi-wan argument looks too much like a lovers' spat for Anakin to keep an entirely straight face, and the Senators call a truce for dinner.
Meanwhile the clones are checking the ship's hangar which, for some reason, isn't illuminated so they have to use the headlights. This does not help when they are attacked by a separatist droid hidden onboard. Some spider-like thing that seems convinced it's the antagonist of a slasher movie. Obi-Wan explains to Anakin how he and Qui-Gon spent a year protecting Satine during a local civil war and that it was a difficult decision for him to leave when the time came. He laments how hard the "no attachment" rule is. Anakin struggles a bit with Obi-Wan's decision but leaves when Rex tells them some of their men are missing and R2 is acting up. Anakin and the clones find the crate where the droid was hiding and destroy it. (After it tried to use a clone's corpse in the most pathetic attempt at deception in the serie so far, and that's saying a lot.) However a second machine escapes through the lift towards the politicians. It knocks out two Mandalorian guards but Obi-Wan disables it before it harms anyone.
Anakin realizes another might be missing but before they can investigate both wrecks start spewing miniature spider assassin droids. Satine defends herself with agundeactivator stating "just because I'm a pacifist doesn't mean I won't defend myself." So, 100% agreement with the Jedi, then, as Kenobi points out? Both swarms are relatively easily taken out (one dead clone). This reminds Satine and Obi-Wan of an old adventure and they have a cute moment. Anakin discovers that the crate was brought in using the Senate's stamp of approval so a Senator has to be complicit in the attack. Obi-Wan captures a surviving mini-assassin and thinks up a plan to discover the traitor, while Anakin pursues the remaining droid. Obi-wan's plan is remarkably simple, he put the droid in a glass casing and presents it to each Senator, reasoning that it will be programmed not to try to harm its ally. It works and exposes Tal Merrik, who frees the droid and uses the confusion to take Satine hostage.
Anakin, Rex and Cody dispatch the last droid while Merrik butchers the ship's captain and some Senate Guards. Merrik takes the ship out of hyperspace and contacts Death Watch for reinforcement and escape. They send him some boarding ships full of superdroids. Oh come on, what kind of warrior-culture terrorist organization doesn't fight its own battles!? Anyhoo, the clones and Mandalorian fight them. the Mando guards do a surprisingly good job, these poles they have turning out to be some kind of rifles as well as tasers. Not the most practical design but I dig it. Anakin joins the fight while Obi-wan goes to save the woman who he insists isn't his girlfriend. He wins handily.
Merrik meanwhile traded his gun for a detonator: he wired the ship to explode. This forces Obi-wan to let him go, even though he follows. Satine calls Kenobi "Obi", which is cute. Merrik tells Satine to say goodbye to Obi-Wan and so she does. And confess her love for him. Merrik's face is priceless. Obi-wan admits he'd have left the Order for her. Merrik finds that sickening. This offends Satine so she steps on his foot and steal his gun. Why didn't you do that before? Merrik isn't afraid, though. He'll blow up the ship from a distance. He says that if Satine kills him she exposes herself as an hypocrite to her very pacifist ideals (not the one she outlined earlier, though) and if Obi-wan kills him, Satine will lose her respect for him. He asks then which one of them will brand themselves a cold-blooded killer. And Anakin stabs him in the back as a few notes of The imperial March play. "What? He was going to blow up the ship!" Satine and Kenobi then act like they didn't confess anything earlier.
On Coruscant, Palaptine greets them, and Satine and Obi-Wan parts on good terms. She tells him he should shave his beard as it "hides too much of [his] handsome face."
Spoiler: My thoughts
So. Tal Merrik, was an okay villain. One-bit but serviceable. He's a Death Watch supporter, that's it. Though his jerkiness (finding love sickening, being borderline flattered to be called a monster) was a bit much.
Anakin's dark side moment was nice. I'll say more about his fall when giving my thoughts on the season/serie as a whole, but I'll say that I liked it better than last time, in part due to hisunapologecticnessunapologecticityunapologectichoodunapologetic attitude.
I would say that Satine is an interesting character, but... She's Padmé. No, really. She's a Jedi love interest who he met years ago when protecting her (with Qui-Gon) during a military crisis, she's the leader of her planet and the head of a political movement opposed to the war (and she's opposed to violence in general) and she's a surprisingly good fighter. The only point missing is the never-ending wardrobe. So, yeah, she's Obi-wan's Padmé.
I don't think the writers figured out how far her pacifism goes, though. Is she willing to fight to defend others or not? Also her debates with Obi-Wan seems to shift as his position is murky too.
But really this episode is all about Obi-Wan. We're finally seeing some cracks in Mr. Perfect Jedi's shining image. Turns out he, just like both of his apprentices, struggled with letting go of his attachments and almost quit the Order. ('coz yeah, this was totally an option for Anakin. One that would have solved all his problems. Hell, he could even have re-engaged into the Republic Army and they'd have given him his rank back in a snap.) That's very good, the Jedi live by hard principles and it'd be ridiculous for Obi-Wan, Yoda or any other not to struggle with them. Especially for Qui-Gon's student and Luke & Anakin's Master. Of course the difference is that, in the end, Obi-wan chose the Order before his own happiness, the wisdom of which is debatable.
Also it's nice to see Obi-Wan confide in Anakin. Like friends do.Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-09-28 at 05:32 PM.
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Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2020-09-04, 06:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time
Im a fan of the character development that Obi-wan gets during this arc, though i could do without Satine. As you say, she's kind of a rerun of Padme, and her kinda-sorta pacifist ideals both clashed with my mental image of the Mandalorians, and confused me as to what she actually stands FOR.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-09-04, 08:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-09-04, 08:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-09-05, 05:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time
People aren't homogenous, I have no problem with the idea of a pacifist Mando but her ideals are too poorly defined. It'd have been better if they had decided to have her an absolute not-even-in-self-defense kind of pacifist I think. I'm also not entirely sure Star Wars is the right franchise to have a war/peace debate, because
A) It thrives on black-and-white morality with a side full of bad guys and a side full of good guys who fight for ill-defined reasons and
B) It's an action franchise, it needs its heroes to fight people so its decked is stacked against the pacifists from the word go.Forum Wisdom
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2020-09-05, 07:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-09-05, 07:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time
Since Obi-Wan says there was a civil war when she came to power and of the three members of her government, two (so far) turned out to disapprove of it, I think one can say that they were introducing some complexity to Mandalorian culture. A retcon to be sure but one that points out the logical consequence to the Mandalorians’ unhealthy fixation on warfare rather that claim it didn’t exist.
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2020-09-05, 08:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time
Oh, that reminds me. How did the pacifists win the civil war? Like, come on. Theyre pacifists, theyre literally defined by their unwillingness to use violence. And if everybody in her government are secretly still big in the warrior culture, it still doesnt explain how she actually ended up in charge. A coup shouldnt have been necessary in the first place if she was that unpopular.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-09-05, 09:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time
If Person A wants war with Person B and Person B wants war with Person C and Person C wants war with Person A then Person D who doesn't want a war might make a case for a period of peace while everyone else works out how the war should start as no individual group wants to overextend themselves knowing that there are people who will take advantage of a weakened position.
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2020-09-05, 09:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-09-05, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-09-05, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-09-05, 10:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time