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Thread: Ethical Quagmires
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2016-02-02, 03:18 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2015
Ethical Quagmires
I made these up in a different thread (not mine), but everyone seems to be ignoring me... How would you guys react in these wacky scenarios?
SpoilerHere's another one: They are starving and come into a city with plenty of gold. But here's the thing; the cities entire economy operates on theft! There is no currency, if you want bread then you have to go to the baker and steal it. The baker gets all his baking supplies by stealing them. Why does he bake food for other people just so they can steal it, though? Because the king stole his daughter! And told him to do it or she dies!
Here's a good one: They're walking along the road when they hear a dragon beating it's wings overhead. Just then, a bullywog comes crashing to the ground, shattering all his bones. He begs for an end to his misery. Do the PCs try to keep him comfortable as he passes, or do they kill him right there and end his misery? If they try to heal him, they learn that he actually has a deathwish and will fight them to the death.
The PCs make good friends with the prince of whatever kingdom they are in.. The prince is soon to be married to the princess of a foreign land which they have been warring with for generations. This marriage will cement an alliance which will end this war that has cost hundreds of thousands of lives. The prince actually likes the party paladin so much that he makes him the best man. On top of that, the prince is totally in love with the princess and has never felt this way about a woman before. On the day of the wedding, it is revealed that the foreign princess has been cheating on the prince with one of her knights. The paladin walks in on them in the act. She begs him not to say anything. If anyone finds out about this, the princess and the knight will be executed, and the war will surely continue for 100 more years. If the paladin doesn't say anything, then he will be letting the prince down. What does he do??
The PCs are now part of a resistance group that defends the meek and helpless against the evil empire. Said resistance consists of a warrior class - who go to free refugees and undermine the empire (destroy their resources, etc) - and the refugees - old people, women & children - who cannot fend for themselves. Food is limited and they hardly ever even get a solid meal every day. The leader lives by a communist ideal, everyone gets an equal share regardless if they are a warrior or not. A group within the warriors believes they should be getting a larger share of the food, so they can become stronger and therefore fight harder - potentially bringing in more food/resources; however, the balance is so precarious that taking even 10% more food would cause the elderly to starve. Resistance leader tells him that's not gonna fly. Warrior douche pulls a sword on the leader, wants to start a mutiny. Leader is outnumbered and will certainly die without intervention. What do the PCs do?
PCs are walking in the city and inadvertently kill a guy somehow, perhaps by causing a large load to fall off some scaffolding and crush him. Some dude leaning on the scaffolding and thinks he was responsible, starts freaking out. There are no other witnesses. Guards arrive, arrive at the conclusion that the dude killed the guy. Whoever was responsible is going to jail, no question. Do the PCs take responsibility or let the innocent guy rot in jail?
SpoilerWhat would you do if the love of your life was suffering kidney failure, and the only way to save her was to either donate your own kidney (and survive but be severely weakened) or kill your father and take his? On top of that, once you give her your [ /fathers] kidney, she decides she doesn't love you anymore and you're left alone.
What if you walked into a town and the first thing you see is an orc male/elf female couple, and they are so giddy with excitement as they approach the town hall to file for a marriage license. You smile and wish them a happy future, thinking nothing of it, then you and your party goes your own way. 20 minutes later, you see a crowd forming outside the town hall. They're all elves and they are chanting something about no orc/elf relations. The couple is being strung up, upside down, by their legs over the front door to the hall. People begin throwing rocks at them. They are going to get stoned to death if no one stops this barbaric practice. Your bard, being the charismatic one, tries to calm down the crowd, but their leader interjects and says you're destroying his culture. What do you do?
There's an evil regime being supported by a faceless megacorporation. The evil regime rules with an iron fist, but they ensure stability in the region. Everyone is entitled to a good education in STEM fields for free (provided they are intelligent enough to study it after "high school". Otherwise they become farmers or laborers) and is decently fed. However, they have a strict propaganda machine. Everyone is taught to never question the government. All forms of entertainment are in praise of the government. Dissidents are sent to prison camps and never heard from again. On top of that, the entire country is made to serve the faceless megacorporation, feeding them resources so they can build their World Ending DeviceTM... On the other side, you have nomadic rebels living in the mountains. They celebrate art and culture, preach individual freedom, etc. However, they are just totally crap at womens rights. They think women are nothing more than objects and child-bearers. These are ideals they have carried over from before the days of the evil regime, and think that men are the only important figures in their culture. In fact, they are also like the greeks in that they practice pederasty - meaning that women are used solely for procreation, and a real loving relationship is between 2 men. Their leader is power hungry and wants to spread chaos, because he believes that living in a society of order cannot be considered life. Which side would you go with?
Here's some new ones that came out during the course of the topic (not all mine). I don't know what the character limit is but I hope I can fit them all.
SpoilerHere's a new one I thought of last night.
In your world, the great and noble Plated Mammoth are prized hunting trophies for rich nobles, who travel the world to obtain one of these status symbols. The Plated Mammoth has a large migratory course throughout much of the continent each year, but for the winter they convene at the north pole for mating season. The northern barbarians there have based their culture around the primal animal spirits, one of which are the mammoth. Sadly, the mammoth is nearing extinction because of the over hunting around the continent.
Here's the thing - the barbarians use the plated mammoth as a staple food source. It is their main source of protein throughout the year. The barbarian hunting was sustainable for generations upon generations, up until about 20 years ago when it became fashionable for southerners to hunt them on their migration and mount them on their walls or outfit their guards with the powerful plating. It is also ingrained in their culture as a rite of passage - a boy does not become a man until he has participated in his first mammoth hunt.
They still have a meager amount of other protein sources - fish and caribou and such... but those are not nearly enough to feed their whole society. After all, they are in one of the most remote parts of the world. There are not many other animals out there. However, the barbarians are tied to the land and believe that the spirits would not let them starve. If you choose to convince them to move south, you will find yourself unable to do so. The elders will hear nothing of it. Some of the younger generations might leave, but the majority will follow the elders.
How do you solve the extinction of the plated mammoth and prevent the barbarians from starving?
Spoiler: Probably still crapOne day in your adventures, you are fighting an evil tyrant. As you are about to strike the final blow, he tears open a portal in space & time, hurling you into an alternate universe where you are totally unaware of their history.
You wake up in some strange ruins, where ancient tablets tell you a strange tale. You learn that the land suffers from a terrible cycle of life & undeath. Every 1000 years, a curse befalls the land and people begin to lose their sense of being. They become lifeless hollows who are incapable of anything other than attacking whatever may disturb their rest. You continue through this land, fending off these lifeless husks, until you reach a seaside town where you meet actual living beings. Something about this town disturbs you, though. The people are very suspicious of your presence. Most will not speak to you, instead keeping their heads down and continuing their daily chores, trying their hardest to ignore you.
Eventually, a priest and his two guards in blindingly bright full plate; carrying imposing halberds; faces covered in full helms, come out of the cathedral. The rickety priest hails your party and welcomes you to the hamlet of Meridia. He tells you a short history of the town and elaborates on the undead curse. They cycle began when man first broke their pact with the true god, Avakath. Foolish men began to doubt the all encompassing love of Avakath. They came up with their own gods, or worshiped other idols like the nature spirits, or cultural heroes who supposedly ascended to godhood through their pious deeds. In truth, the only way to avoid this curse is through extreme devotion to Avakath, through extreme sacrifice and self-flagellation. The source of the curse is desire, for it is desire which leaves us empty inside and causes us to consume endlessly.
The priest offers you food and lodging for the night. In the middle of the night, you are woken by screams coming from outside. A horde of undead is attacking the town. After your party dispatches them (assuming you haven't left or leave the town to die - see, I'm not railroading you!) the priest remarks that you are all obviously powerful warriors. He asks that you go into the mountains nearby, where there is a heretic wizard who has defied the teachings of Avakath. You must slay him, as he is practicing dark magicks that tear the very fabric of nature.
You arrive there and meet a young necromancer. He welcomes you warmly and asks if you came from Meridia. You are not the first band of adventurers who have came to slay him, but there is no need for that. He explains to you that he is researching a way to break the undead curse. He has found a way, but at a terrible cost. The only way to end the curse is to sever the hold of Avakath on the land. This is achieved by slaying the 4 great giants and using their hearts in a dark ritual which will end the cycle, but will also bring a terrible blight upon the land. Avakath will lose his grip on the world, which will have the side-effect of causing many forms of plant and animal life to cease living as well, for Avakath is the patron of life itself.
The necromancer also tells you that he once worked alongside the priest. They worked together on trying to find a way to end the undead curse. What they discovered is that the giant hearts can also be used to strengthen Avakath. Doing so will solidify his hold on humanity. They would all become his mindless slaves, working as a perfect hive mind. In this sense, it would cause all to become undead - but instead of mindless killers, they remain "living matter" and their consciousness exists in a dream-world utopia, and they will work solely to build monuments to the glory of Avakath. The necromancer left after learning this, because he did not think that forfeiting your free will was worth it.
After gathering the giant hearts (assuming you didn't just kill the necromancer/kill everyone at this point) you begin the ritual (either severing or strengthening Avakath) the unfathomable form of Avakath appears to you directly. He tells you that since you are from outside this reality, he is unable to mind-control you or make you undead. You adventurers are from outside this reality, and outside his grasp. If you choose to strengthen him, he will not only let you live (which would keep him interested - having creatures to speak to outside his hive mind) but his servants will give you all you desire. As many lovers as you wish, and entertainment you like, etc. He may also be able to find a way to send you back to your reality.
Do you help Avakath, or end the curse?Last edited by Douche; 2016-02-23 at 08:28 AM.
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2016-02-02, 04:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
- Location
Re: Ethical Quagmires
I can't take this one seriously enough to make a real stab at it; it would depend on my PC how I'd react if I came across it in-game. Out of game, I'd be snickering or rolling my eyes, depending on how seriously I thought the
Heal him and try to talk him out of his deathwish, putting him on a suicide watch if needs be. Probably leaving him to NPCs who have more time and expertise (even though, metagame-wise, I know that's condemning him to death because NPCs are automatically incompetent in these situations).
Tell the prince, and pull the princess and him together to figure out what they're going to do about it. It's not my responsibility to expose it to the world, but it is my (paladin's) duty to tell the prince, so he can make a decision. And to encourage him not to make a rash one out of pique and hurt.
I would recommend going through with the marriage and trying to help the girl love her husband, because politics trump love in these things, but there's the possibility for it there (since at least one side IS in love).
Stop the mutiny and explore options calmly once the mutineers are put down. Though why the refugees are being kept in a position where they cannot provide for themselves baffles me; they should be forming their own fiefdom at this point, if there are really that many of them.
Morally and ethically, confession is the right thing to do. Deal with the adventure that comes from that.
Donate my kidney, and be heartbroken when she leaves me. She's the love of my life, after all.
Eye-roll at the obvious political commentary, then intervene because the only people hurting anybody are the violent mob. What are they, Menites (from IK)?
Improbable. Fascism is a form of socialism, and therefore the economy is probably not able to support this largesse. More believable. The prosperity and word of sufficient food and education is probably part of this propaganda. N. Korean citizens are told they're the happiest, healthiest, best-fed people on Earth, after all.
So any number of modern dictatorships, with an extra façade of a megacorporation rather than just "the government."
Neither. I work my way into the "rebel" group and take it over by winning the hearts and minds of the freedom-loving individuals by demonstrating the logical fallacies inherent to their sexist ideologies and exposing their leadership for the corrupt just-like-their-enemies jerk he is, then help the newly refurbished resistance establish itself elsewhere. We can worry about what to do about the Evil Empire once we are better situated, because going to war seems less productive than building up our Good Empire.
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2016-02-02, 04:57 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
Re: Ethical Quagmires
You didn't specify a setting, which makes pretty big difference, so I'm going to go with D&D, since some of the examples imply it.
Theft-based economy:
And presumably the people the baker steals supplies from are also producing said supplies under threat from the king? This just sounds like a strange and unnecessarily oppressive form of state-controlled communism. Whether I'd try to overthrow it would depend on the same factors as any other oppressive regime - ability and consequences. Oh, and obviously steal food if they won't sell it to me - if I'm starving, I would do that regardless of the society being weird anyway.
Suicidal Bullywug:
If I can heal broken bones, do so. After that, if he remains suicidal then that's up to him. If I can't heal broken bones, nor get him to anyone that can, then put him out of his misery as requested.
Wedding Paladin:
This is a tough one - it depends on how much I (as said Paladin) value the ideal of 'Truth' compared to other ideals like 'Peace'. If I did tell the Prince, I would try my hardest to prevent him acting rashly on this.
Resistance group:
Prevent the mutiny. Tell said mutineers that if they're willing to have their allies starve in order to be fed better, they should **** off and go become mercenaries. This would be more of a dilemma if the alternative was just the non-warriors being miserable and unhealthy, and the result was significantly better performance from the warriors.
Accidental death:
Not a quagmire, the ethical option is obviously to confess. Not saying all characters I play would do that, but the good-aligned ones (and some others) would. Not that confessing necessarily means accepting arrest either, however.
Kidney failure:
Also not a quagmire - murdering your father for a kidney is pretty obviously not ethical.
Orc/Elf couple:
Shut down the mob. Reply to leader - "I destroy cultures all the time, like last week when I smashed the altar of those Dagon cultists and killed the giant fish monster that was an avatar of their god. Why would you expect different treatment?"
LE vs CE:
Support neither. If I can subvert one of the sides to not being evil, do so and then support them.Last edited by icefractal; 2016-02-02 at 08:04 PM.
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2016-02-02, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2008
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- Xin-Shalast
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Re: Ethical Quagmires
1. Kill the king and conquer the city with my actually loyal force, institute reforms, view losing a thirds of the population as acceptable losses coming from such a bad start. Freeing the large number of hostages would at least win a lot of hearts and minds initially. Give the DM a swirly.
2. Heal it enough so it's not dying but not enough to be a threat. Talk to it. Let te party face work his mojo and have a new exotic member of our retinue. Give the DM a wedgie if he derails this.
3. Kill the knight in bed, let the prince decide the rest. Make a note to conquer that country and see if its princes are wiser than the princesses when it comes to marrying to legitimize my rule. Pants the DM.
4. Save the leader,don't be scrubs in the first place. Make the DM eat dog food.
5. Explain what happened, murder the guard if they try to do anything more stupid than just take us directly to the magistrate. Show the DM's baby photos to his crush.
6. Give her my kidney as a temporary measure while we grow her a new one. Take my kidney back afterward, regardless of her attempts to flee. Trick the DM into eating meat flavored gum.
7. Mindrape them into being peaceable and offering them the choice of going back to elf land, living peaceably, or being replaced by a nearly exact copy of themselves that doesn't care. If this is elf land, ask the DM why there was a living orc in the first place while giving him Indian burns.
8. Kill the leaders of both sides and conquer the whole kit and kaboodle with an army of angels. Then sit down with the DM and have an intervention, because we're his friends and we care about him and we see his calls for help.
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2016-02-02, 05:55 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2013
Re: Ethical Quagmires
Fun. But a bit too easy to answer(even if they are controversial questions).
Hungry with gold in a theft based economy:
Buy food. My gold is valuable for more than mere coinage and thus is a "trade"able asset. However I would not stick around for long since it is not a healthy society.
A bullywog requests death:
Inquire why they want to die (particularly looking for an alternate solution).
Upon learning there is no alternate, inquire how the bullywog wants to die.
Finally preform the death in a manner that both of us agree upon.
Cheating princess:
Why is she cheating? Will she credibly stop? If not, then will the Prince be willing to play King Arthur to her Queen Guinevere? If not, then the secret will be kept but a different alliance arrangement would be needed. The details would be arranged by the Princess and the Prince.
Starving resistance mutiny:
Intervene to halt the fighting (current leader surviving is coincidental). The two groups need each other so starving the elderly is not a solution. However, food volunteered from the refugees to the warriors will be accepted.
Accidental death:
Depends on the setting/city.
Unjust government -> Prevent arrest
Just but no mercy -> Disprove any attempts to convict
Just & Wise -> Take responsibility
Kidney failure:
1 death vs 1 poor health. While not morally obligatory, the self sacrificing donation would be the right thing to do.
Stoned to death:
They can keep their culture but they cannot keep their victims.
Tale of 2 tyrannies:
Fight the stronger tyranny(megacorp) without supporting the less powerful one(nomadic rebels).Last edited by OldTrees1; 2016-02-02 at 05:59 PM.
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2016-02-02, 06:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2012
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- *Redacted*
Re: Ethical Quagmires
The answer is to all of these is to kill them and loot their corpse. That's what any self-respecting PC would do.
Last edited by BootStrapTommy; 2016-02-04 at 08:12 PM.
Please take everything I say with a grain of salt. Unless we're arguing about alignment. In which case, you're wrong.
Former EMPIRE2! Player: Imperator of the Nihoni Dominion
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My Awesome Campaign Setting
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2016-02-02, 07:50 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
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2016-02-03, 04:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
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- UK
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Re: Ethical Quagmires
The problem is the alignment (or similar) of my Character as these will change the answer
I shall answer based on 2 major PC’s I play in AD&D – one NE (Illusionist / Thief) and one CN (Ranger / Druid)
Theft-based economy:
And presumably the people the baker steals supplies from are also producing said supplies under threat from the king? This just sounds like a strange and unnecessarily oppressive form of state-controlled communism.
NE: who cares – Steal what I need a move on
CN: Assuming all the people are being controlled in a similar way by the king then I would steal but leave gold behind as fare payment – If the society does not see stealing as a “Crime” then its not my job to change it
Suicidal Bullywug:
If I can heal broken bones, do so. After that, if he remains suicidal then that's up to him. If I can't heal broken bones, nor get him to anyone that can, then put him out of his misery as requested.
NE: Kill him and take anything he has on him
CN: Heal him but is a cruel world out there and if that’s what he wants to do let him
Wedding Paladin:
This is a tough one - it depends on how much I (as said Paladin) value the ideal of 'Truth' compared to other ideals like 'Peace'. If I did tell the Prince, I would try my hardest to prevent him acting rashly on this.
NE: Tell the Paladin to keep out of it – it’s a political marriage. Then use the info to blackmail the Princess (and when queen) become the power behind the throne
CN: Not my Problem
If Paladin: I would not tell the Prince and this marriage will save many lives. I might challenge the knight though for breaking his vows
Resistance group:
Prevent the mutiny. Tell said mutineers that if they're willing to have their allies starve in order to be fed better, they should **** off and go become mercenaries. This would be more of a dilemma if the alternative was just the non-warriors being miserable and unhealthy, and the result was significantly better performance from the warriors.
NE: Encourage the mutiny and if the confusion take what I want. If it looks worth it take over
CN: Probably stop the mutiny
Accidental death:
Not a quagmire, the ethical option is obviously to confess. Not saying all characters I play would do that, but the good-aligned ones (and some others) would. Not that confessing necessarily means accepting arrest either, however.
NE: whatever!, who cares
CN: Tell the guy / guards it was not him but an unspecified urchin that did it
Kidney failure:
Also not a quagmire - murdering your father for a kidney is pretty obviously not ethical.
NE: Get a healer to fix them (AD&D) or find another match and take it from them
CN: Give them my Kidney
Orc/Elf couple:
Shut down the mob. Reply to leader - "I destroy cultures all the time, like last week when I smashed the altar of those Dagon cultists and killed the giant fish monster that was an avatar of their god. Why would you expect different treatment?"
NE: Pick up a few rocks and have some fun
CN: If that’s their society then let them get on with it
LE vs CE:
Support neither. If I can subvert one of the sides to not being evil, do so and then support them.
NE: Sell them out to the Corp
CN: Help the rebels – sounds more fun
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2016-02-03, 05:42 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2014
Re: Ethical Quagmires
Spoiler: Prince and PrincessThe PCs make good friends with the prince of whatever kingdom they are in.. The prince is soon to be married to the princess of a foreign land which they have been warring with for generations. This marriage will cement an alliance which will end this war that has cost hundreds of thousands of lives. The prince actually likes the party paladin so much that he makes him the best man. On top of that, the prince is totally in love with the princess and has never felt this way about a woman before. On the day of the wedding, it is revealed that the foreign princess has been cheating on the prince with one of her knights. The paladin walks in on them in the act. She begs him not to say anything. If anyone finds out about this, the princess and the knight will be executed, and the war will surely continue for 100 more years. If the paladin doesn't say anything, then he will be letting the prince down. What does he do??
A princess trapped in a political marriage? You know how the stories go - the princess manages to get away somehow, maybe even with the help of the PCs, and stuff happens to ensure everything eventually gets to a happy ending!
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2016-02-03, 06:35 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2015
Re: Ethical Quagmires
SpoilerHere's another one: They are starving and come into a city with plenty of gold. But here's the thing; the cities entire economy operates on theft! There is no currency, if you want bread then you have to go to the baker and steal it. The baker gets all his baking supplies by stealing them. Why does he bake food for other people just so they can steal it, though? Because the king stole his daughter! And told him to do it or she dies!
Here's a good one: They're walking along the road when they hear a dragon beating it's wings overhead. Just then, a bullywog comes crashing to the ground, shattering all his bones. He begs for an end to his misery. Do the PCs try to keep him comfortable as he passes, or do they kill him right there and end his misery? If they try to heal him, they learn that he actually has a deathwish and will fight them to the death.
The PCs make good friends with the prince of whatever kingdom they are in.. The prince is soon to be married to the princess of a foreign land which they have been warring with for generations. This marriage will cement an alliance which will end this war that has cost hundreds of thousands of lives. The prince actually likes the party paladin so much that he makes him the best man. On top of that, the prince is totally in love with the princess and has never felt this way about a woman before. On the day of the wedding, it is revealed that the foreign princess has been cheating on the prince with one of her knights. The paladin walks in on them in the act. She begs him not to say anything. If anyone finds out about this, the princess and the knight will be executed, and the war will surely continue for 100 more years. If the paladin doesn't say anything, then he will be letting the prince down. What does he do??
The PCs are now part of a resistance group that defends the meek and helpless against the evil empire. Said resistance consists of a warrior class - who go to free refugees and undermine the empire (destroy their resources, etc) - and the refugees - old people, women & children - who cannot fend for themselves. Food is limited and they hardly ever even get a solid meal every day. The leader lives by a communist ideal, everyone gets an equal share regardless if they are a warrior or not. A group within the warriors believes they should be getting a larger share of the food, so they can become stronger and therefore fight harder - potentially bringing in more food/resources; however, the balance is so precarious that taking even 10% more food would cause the elderly to starve. Resistance leader tells him that's not gonna fly. Warrior douche pulls a sword on the leader, wants to start a mutiny. Leader is outnumbered and will certainly die without intervention. What do the PCs do?
PCs are walking in the city and inadvertently kill a guy somehow, perhaps by causing a large load to fall off some scaffolding and crush him. Some dude leaning on the scaffolding and thinks he was responsible, starts freaking out. There are no other witnesses. Guards arrive, arrive at the conclusion that the dude killed the guy. Whoever was responsible is going to jail, no question. Do the PCs take responsibility or let the innocent guy rot in jail?
What would you do if the love of your life was suffering kidney failure, and the only way to save her was to either donate your own kidney (and survive but be severely weakened) or kill your father and take his? On top of that, once you give her your [ /fathers] kidney, she decides she doesn't love you anymore and you're left alone.
What if you walked into a town and the first thing you see is an orc male/elf female couple, and they are so giddy with excitement as they approach the town hall to file for a marriage license. You smile and wish them a happy future, thinking nothing of it, then you and your party goes your own way. 20 minutes later, you see a crowd forming outside the town hall. They're all elves and they are chanting something about no orc/elf relations. The couple is being strung up, upside down, by their legs over the front door to the hall. People begin throwing rocks at them. They are going to get stoned to death if no one stops this barbaric practice. Your bard, being the charismatic one, tries to calm down the crowd, but their leader interjects and says you're destroying his culture. What do you do?
There's an evil regime being supported by a faceless megacorporation. The evil regime rules with an iron fist, but they ensure stability in the region. Everyone is entitled to a good education in STEM fields for free (provided they are intelligent enough to study it after "high school". Otherwise they become farmers or laborers) and is decently fed. However, they have a strict propaganda machine. Everyone is taught to never question the government. All forms of entertainment are in praise of the government. Dissidents are sent to prison camps and never heard from again. On top of that, the entire country is made to serve the faceless megacorporation, feeding them resources so they can build their World Ending DeviceTM... On the other side, you have nomadic rebels living in the mountains. They celebrate art and culture, preach individual freedom, etc. However, they are just totally crap at womens rights. They think women are nothing more than objects and child-bearers. These are ideals they have carried over from before the days of the evil regime, and think that men are the only important figures in their culture. In fact, they are also like the greeks in that they practice pederasty - meaning that women are used solely for procreation, and a real loving relationship is between 2 men. Their leader is power hungry and wants to spread chaos, because he believes that living in a society of order cannot be considered life. Which side would you go with?
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2016-02-03, 08:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2006
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- England
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Re: Ethical Quagmires
Last edited by comicshorse; 2016-02-03 at 08:59 AM.
All Comicshorse's posts come with the advisor : This is just my opinion any difficulties arising from implementing my ideas are your own problem
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2016-02-03, 11:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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- Xin-Shalast
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2016-02-03, 11:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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- Phoenix, AZ
- Gender
Re: Ethical Quagmires
"If they try to heal him, they learn that he actually has a deathwish and will fight them to the death."
"Come back here and take what's coming to ya! I'll bite your legs off!"
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2016-02-03, 11:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
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2016-02-04, 12:47 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: Ethical Quagmires
If the crowd can't be calmed, use whatever minimum force is required (and possible) to rescue the couple and escort them to a place where they'll be safe. If somebody in the crowd claims that I'm destroying their culture I calmly respond, "Yes, I am. This part of it, anyway."
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2016-02-04, 01:50 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
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- Here.
Re: Ethical Quagmires
Theft-Based Economy:
Unfortunately, I cannot take this scenario seriously. If this actually happened in-game, I would sidebar with the DM to figure out how such a system can operate without collapsing on itself. If the answer is "magic" or something, I would just leave the kingdom and find my quests in someplace a bit more sane (and where my WBL won't be constantly at risk from, well, everyone).
Suicidal Bullywug:
A character's beliefs on voluntary euthanasia is not relevant to the good-evil axis. A character can be good and respect a creature's right to request its own death; a character can also be good and believe that a creature has a duty to live out life even in suffering. Depending on the naivete, the social background, and the personal beliefs of my character, I can see them doing anything - quick death, or try to help them then apply self-defense when they attack. Alternatively, heal them, then have their world views shattered while they try to sort out their views on the ethics of voluntary euthanasia on their own. All of those are valid for good characters (and good paladins).
Wedding Paladin:
On an objective basis, hiding the princess's cheating will result in the greatest good. Most of my paladins with an okay WIS score will attempt to cover for the princess; he will seek other ways to try to keep the peace and help the prince find peace first, of course, but this is exactly why the paladin code does not guard against lying.
The princess, of course, will also get the standard banal 2 hour lecture(tm). If anything, I will take steps to remind the princess of the position that she's in, and the horrors that will happen if she keeps on taking the selfish path. I will also try to watch over the relationship for a while if possible, just to ensure peace to the best of my abilities.
Even if the GM declared outright that a paladin can fall for lying or hiding the truth, I will do this regardless. Because peace is more important than shiny holy powers.
Resistance Group:
Stopping the mutiny is pretty much going to be the standard good answer here. The mutineer's decision is a selfish one that is threatening the stability of the group; he's acting in an evil manner here. I will do everything I can to talk him down and ensure that the situation doesn't come to blows, of course.
Accidental Death/Kidney Failure:
Confessing is easily the morally right option here for the first one. For the second one, under (almost) no circumstance would killing your father to harvest his organs EVER be the right thing to do.
Orc/Elf Couple:
If we're still talking about moral quandaries, then "destroying their culture" is the right thing to do. It's the same with evil cultists that murder people; culture doesn't make people above reproach for something like a lynch mob. (Objectively, of course. Most of my actual characters, good or not, will likely have biases that color their world view in some way, and thus may react differently to this situation. They won't be morally justified, but we are all humans after all. Or humanoid. Or weird other XP-giving race.)
LE vs CE:
If the big ol' tyrant empire isn't trying to build an World-Ending Device, then I have a selection of good characters that would be totally okay with them. The World-Ending Device makes the first part of this a bit silly; of course you're going to oppose that as a good character. It's totally possible to believe in Totalitarianism and still be good, but world-ending though?
Also, this isn't a binary decision. I think a lot of good characters built on modern values would support neither of them. Personally, if you removed the World-Ending Device from the empire, then it would really just be a somewhat stricter form of Ye Old Good Kingdom (with a king that is possibly a bit more selfish). As for the latter, the moral decision would already be to not support these people, either; to change them from within, or do something to ensure a much better treatment for the women. The weird power-hungry chaos-spreading leader just makes this that much more apparent.
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2016-02-04, 02:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ethical Quagmires
You can't just leave. You're starving to death.
The system operates on a long tradition of thievery. They worship a god of theft, and actually obtain most of their resources by stealing from a neighboring city. Other than that, they also receive a lot of foreign aid from other countries.
Their king is actually a figurehead to the demon of gluttony. It is corpulent and slug-like, and has the power to instill an unquenchable avarice in whomever it meets.
Last edited by Douche; 2016-02-04 at 03:26 PM.
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2016-02-04, 03:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-02-04, 03:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ethical Quagmires
I see. Then this is not really a moral quandary, either. There's no reason to not oppose a system created by a demon that wants to mess up other people. it's not even a naturally occurring tradition, but an artificial one that is reeking of extra-planar evil.
Unless if you mean if a good person would follow the tradition of stealing in order to feed themselves, in which case the answer is probably a no, unless if I can truly ensure that the other party would not suffer excessively for it AND that I have a greater purpose in participating in these shenanigans. Like, for example, surviving for long enough to enact a plan against the demon that I'm reasonably sure would work and create better living conditions.
But on a more personal level, I honestly can't see myself playing a good character that comes out of that setting and isn't an adventurer looking into the place from outside. Anyone who grew up in that kind of setting will probably be at least neutral to have survived for long enough to be able to choose paladin-hood in the first place.
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2016-02-04, 03:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ethical Quagmires
You're not from this city. You were travelling and arrived here.
And yeah, hahaha... This is a ridiculous scenario. I only added these details to attempt to make sense of it cuz of your post, lol.
Anyway, the society still worshiped the god of thieves before the demon arrived. It was their culture that attracted him.
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2016-02-04, 03:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ethical Quagmires
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2016-02-04, 03:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ethical Quagmires
And others are outright poisonous, destroying those who adhere to them and only sustaining themselves by feeding off of victims to make up for what they take from their own. When they run out of victims, they consume themselves from within until there's nothing left.
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2016-02-04, 03:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-02-04, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ethical Quagmires
The elf men are actually deeply insecure about orcs taking their women. They see it as an insult to their manhood and it makes them feel inadequate.
However, intervening in this scenario will cause the entire town to turn hostile towards you - including the other orcs who are subjugated.
Good idea, Dr. Manhattan!Last edited by Douche; 2016-02-04 at 04:06 PM.
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2016-02-04, 04:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-02-04, 04:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ethical Quagmires
While I do subscribe to that philosophy, no, that is not to which I was referring. As it's applicable by anybody looking at cultures for signs of harmful traits, I will not identify the ones I specifically think are so, as this isn't the thread for it. ;)
Or, in professor-speak, I leave that as an exercise for the reader. ~_^
Nonsense. Everybody knows all elves are female!
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2016-02-04, 04:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ethical Quagmires
Steal the food. Leave town.
Kill it.
Conceal the evidence.
Slaughter warrior douche immediately. Attempt to reason with his replacement.
Make a point of avoiding knocking over scaffolding in the future. Lucky that fool was there.
Mourn her death from kidney failure.
Release the couple. Unlikely to hear whatever 'interjection' the crowd has.
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Side with the mega-corporation. Their propaganda can be undone, presumably the other guys are going on some kind of twisted tradition which will be harder to undo.
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2016-02-04, 05:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ethical Quagmires
Well, I did say they were too easy didn't I. Let's see these amendments.
Not really an answer. If it is merely hopelessness, then provide hope. If it is merely grief and sorrow, then provide comfort and happiness. If they desire death as an end in itself, then provide death.
Well this is the hardest of the possible cases.
War will reignite regardless of what I do since it is too late to pull the "Just trust me Prince, arrange an alternate peace arrangement". So keep silent but have the knight stationed to chastely prevent the princess from cheating for as long as possible. They are unlikely to survive the next time either is caught.
While the most morally superogatory action would be to take responsibility, I think I would instead let the innocent go to jail and then disprove the false allegations. Thus the innocent would be in jail, but only for a time before released.
Separately I would do what was needed to atone for the accidental death I caused.
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2016-02-04, 05:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ethical Quagmires
If the prince won't forgive, even after time to cool off and think about it, then he isn't really in love with her. He's just lusting after her.
And he's also not really all that loyal to his kingdom, given that the peace brokered by this marriage is so important to its well-being.