Suppose Vaarsuvius' 25-word Sending was to Inkyrius. What would it be?

[vonBoomslang]

I'll admit, Inkyrius was my guess for exactly who V was trying to contact via sending. Maybe start at making amends, maybe offer a thoughtful apology, maybe simply reassure that they are still okay and out to save the world and would like to discuss matters once that is done, if I is willing.

But as it was, that was not to be, even though I feel it was suitably foreshadowed (strip #1046). So I'm curious, what do y'all think could be in a 25 word message to a former and perhaps some day again mate?

[RatElemental]

I'll just go ahead and bring these over from the 1188 thread, since there was plenty of speculation going on there about what it was if it was to Inky.

"I was an arrogant fool, did a terrible thing, and am more sorry than I could say in countless words. Love and miss you terribly." No wait for a reply.

"Words cannot express how sorry I am. I do not expect forgiveness, just be safe: world at stake. My mentor may be able to help."

"I am so sorry. You were right. Have a good life and take care of the children. World at risk, please talk to my mentor."

Then you need to send to the mentor too. You can save a word by remembering the mentor's name.

[DLcygnet]

"I'm sorry, Inkyrius. Please be safe.
Battle over fate of the World at North Pole. Send Aarindarius.
Will return when debt to fiends is paid."

Although, that last bit sounds a tad ominous and posthumous.

[The Pilgrim]

"I'm sorry"
"It's all my fault"
"Those pants don't make you look fat"
"Remember to turn off lights after leaving a room"

[Darth Paul]

"You were right-
I apologize-
Love to you and children-
Fate of world at stake-
Will send more later-
I may have left oven on"

[Dr.Zero]

"You were an arrogant fool. Uninterested to how many people I could help with those powers. I will save the world then kick your ass."

[Themrys]

Whatever it was, I bet Vaarsuvius needed Blackwing's help (or someone else's) to put it all in only 25 words.

And probably also some help on formulating it.

Vaarsuvius would probably want to put the warning of the world ending first. Blackwing would have to point out that Inkyrius is unlikely to listen to a message that does not start with an apology.

[137beth]

"You were an arrogant fool. Uninterested to how many people I could help with those powers. I will save the world then kick your ass."

Somehow I doubt V would actually want to say something like that.

[Peelee]

Somehow I doubt V would actually want to say something like that.

Especially considering how many they did help with those powers.

[Dr.Zero]

Somehow I doubt V would actually want to say something like that.

You are right.

But I can still hope. Because, come on, Ink's behaviour is clearly an example of guilty feeling manipulation. And egocentrism, of course.

"I sold my soul to fiends". The answer: not assuming he has done that to save you and your kids, even if he just did. Non at least inquiring the reason. "I simply thought that I had some sort of say in what happened to your soul. I apologize for the presumption."

He says he still needs the power. The answer: not assuming he knows what he is doing with his own damned soul. Non at least inquiring the reason (he might need them to, I dunno, save a bunch of kids, or bring to safety the last survivors of a city destroyed by a lich, or try to vanquish the aforementioned lich). "No. NO."

"I am sorry. I still need to fix everything." The answer: not assuming he maybe has something important to fix (the aforementioned survivors and lich). Not at least trying to get an explanation later. Divorce, with child custody.

That is the perfect depiction of a psychological abusive relationship, trust me.

[Emanick]

You are right.

But I can still hope. Because, come on, Ink's behaviour is clearly an example of guilty feeling manipulation. And egocentrism, of course.

"I sold my soul to fiends". The answer: not assuming he has done that to save you and your kids, even if he just did. Non at least inquiring the reason. "I simply thought that I had some sort of say in what happened to your soul. I apologize for the presumption."

He says he still needs the power. The answer: not assuming he knows what he is doing with his own damned soul. Non at least inquiring the reason (he might need them to, I dunno, save a bunch of kids, or bring to safety the last survivors of a city destroyed by a lich, or try to vanquish the aforementioned lich). "No. NO."

"I am sorry. I still need to fix everything." The answer: not assuming he maybe has something important to fix (the aforementioned survivors and lich). Not at least trying to get an explanation later. Divorce, with child custody.

That is the perfect depiction of a psychological abusive relationship, trust me.

Depends on the context. If V was a generally loving and noble spouse, Inkyrius might have made other assumptions. But if Inky is used to neglect from hir spouse, it makes sense for hir to interpret V's behavior in that light.

I don't disagree with you on the nature of what a psychologically abusive relationship is at all, by the way - I just don't think that's what we're meant to interpret V's and Inky's relationship as (at least, with psychological manipulation on Inkyrius's end).

[Peelee]

You are right.

But I can still hope. Because, come on, Ink's behaviour is clearly an example of guilty feeling manipulation. And egocentrism, of course.

"I sold my soul to fiends". The answer: not assuming he has done that to save you and your kids, even if he just did. Non at least inquiring the reason. "I simply thought that I had some sort of say in what happened to your soul. I apologize for the presumption."

You missed a beat there. "Is this what you were looking for? Is this the 'ultimate arcane power' that you needed so badly? Is this why you left me alone to raise our children for six years? So you could turn yourself into THIS?" Dude left to study and adventure, except whoops, comes back with their soul traded off. Acts so little like the V that Inky knew that Inky believes demons are inhabiting V's body. For a spouse, that's one hell of a radical departure.

He says he still needs the power. The answer: not assuming he knows what he is doing with his own damned soul. Non at least inquiring the reason (he might need them to, I dunno, save a bunch of kids, or bring to safety the last survivors of a city destroyed by a lich, or try to vanquish the aforementioned lich). "No. NO."

Missed another beat there. Before V said they still needed the power, V said, "You stubborn FOOL! Do you know-", complete with evil eyes, aggressive stance, and arcane power flowing from their hands. Inky has hands in defensive position. The children are crying out in terror. I absolutely agree that this is abusive, but it sure as hell ain't Inky doin' the abusing.

Also, missed V lying. "I...I had no choice!" The fiends very specifically and deliberately presented V with an alternate choice, which V believed feasible. Whoops!

"I am sorry. I still need to fix everything." The answer: not assuming he maybe has something important to fix (the aforementioned survivors and lich). Not at least trying to get an explanation later. Divorce, with child custody.

Inky gave V an ultimatum - Inky or V's power. Now, I'm not going to pretend ultimatums are a sign of a healthy relationship, but if you give someone an ultimatum of "that or me" and they choose that? They don't get to complain that they lost "me." V made their choice. V accepts that they have to live with it.

[Dr.Zero]

Depends on the context. If V was a generally loving and noble spouse, Inkyrius might have made other assumptions. But if Inky is used to neglect from hir spouse, it makes sense for hir to interpret V's behavior in that light.

I don't disagree with you on the nature of what a psychologically abusive relationship is at all, by the way - I just don't think that's what we're meant to interpret V's and Inky's relationship as (at least, with psychological manipulation on Inkyrius's end).

We are not meant to interpret it like that, I agree with you.
Nonetheless I can't manage to shake off that bad feeling I get reading that page.

You missed a beat there. "Is this what you were looking for? Is this the 'ultimate arcane power' that you needed so badly? Is this why you left me alone to raise our children for six years? So you could turn yourself into THIS?" Dude left to study and adventure, except whoops, comes back with their soul traded off. Acts so little like the V that Inky knew that Inky believes demons are inhabiting V's body. For a spouse, that's one hell of a radical departure.

Missed another beat there. Before V said they still needed the power, V said, "You stubborn FOOL! Do you know-", complete with evil eyes, aggressive stance, and arcane power flowing from their hands. Inky has hands in defensive position. The children are crying out in terror. I absolutely agree that this is abusive, but it sure as hell ain't Inky doin' the abusing.

Also, missed V lying. "I...I had no choice!" The fiends very specifically and deliberately presented V with an alternate choice, which V believed feasible. Whoops!
Inky gave V an ultimatum - Inky or V's power. Now, I'm not going to pretend ultimatums are a sign of a healthy relationship, but if you give someone an ultimatum of "that or me" and they choose that? They don't get to complain that they lost "me." V made their choice. V accepts that they have to live with it.

Trust me, I missed nothing.
The whole speech was, indeed, guilty feelings manipulation.
As the whole "me or that" is, again, manipulation. Specially without knowing what "that" V needed to do was.
About V's rage burst, that is another typical reaction with a passive aggressive spouse who uses guilty feeling manipulation: pushing you with tantrums and troll logic till the point where you are near to explode, then blaming you for your reaction. And if you manage to control yourself and give up the argument, then blaming you because you don't care. It's so typical that it's almost chilling.

I've no problem to say V might have been a neglecting and workaholic spouse.

But that doesn't make anything Ink does during that encounter less abusive.
The total lack of trust, the constant assumptions "you have done something wrong/what you do is not so important as ME", the guilty feeling triggering speeches, the complete lack of interest about the reasons that are behind your own spouse actions, the passive aggressive "oh, I thought ... I apologize for the presumption", scream "me, me, me and even more ME!".

It doesn't even matter if V had or less good reasons, because they were never the subject of his spouse's interest.

(BTW: I think we agreed somewhere that the plan proposed by the fiends wasn't going to work. And leaving a whole fleet of survivors wandering around the sea and not trying to stop a mass murderer like Xykon just because your spouse says "that or me" would hardly be a good example for your children.
"Oh, you know, I could have saved countless lives, that one time, if I brought to safety that fleet and if I managed to destroy Xykon. But my love, here, said no. And I obeyed and didn't even try. So happy of my choice, now. Learn this lesson, kids! Your marriage and your spouse's tantrums are more important than anything."
But, again, jokes aside, the argument is moot: Ink wasn't interested in what V needed to do, and surely wasn't interested in debating the chances of success.)

[Rrmcklin]

Considering that basically everything we've been shown, and just the general context of knowing pre-character development V, placing any of the blame for their unhealthy relationship on Inky strikes as completely ridiculous.

But, people completely miss/reinterpret the obvious all the time when it comes to things like this, so it's not really surprising.

[Peelee]

As the whole "me or that" is, again, manipulation. Specially without knowing what "that" V needed to do was.

I agreed already on that, ultimatums are a huge red flag. But V did know the "that" - it was to work through whatever happened as a family. And, again, V chose "not Inky." V was still the one to cast off the relationship. You saw it happen. Doing other stuff was more important. Doing it now was more important.

V had a choice.

Just like how V had a choice to not dance with the metaphorical devils. Because whether the alternate plan would have worked or not is irrelevant; what mattered is V believed it would, so V did have a choice, so V went into that whole thing lying to Inky about it.

[Oerlaf]

Although many hesitate about enchantment spells, I would not hesitate to use it if I was going to fix what I had misdone.

V is capable of casting 8th-level spells, so if I were in his place I would cast a demand spell instead of sending: "It was foolish to deal with the fiends, I'm sorry. I should have never chosen them instead of you. Forgive me! Marry me once again!". The last two sentences would be the suggestion contained in the message.

If I were the DM, I would use the following: "A very reasonable suggestion causes the save to be made with a penalty (such as -1 or -2)" and impose a -2 penalty on Inky's Will save.

However, I would rather wait until I reach 17th level and gain 9th level spell slots. A *wish* spell would really fix this: "I wish Inky and my children lost any memories of what happened in the night that I fought the dragon to defend them and Inky had never issued a divorce paper!".

[Peelee]

Although many hesitate about enchantment spells, I would not hesitate to use it if I was going to fix what I had misdone.

V is capable of casting 8th-level spells, so if I were in his place I would cast a demand spell instead of sending: "It was foolish to deal with the fiends, I'm sorry. I should have never chosen them instead of you. Forgive me! Marry me once again!". The last two sentences would be the suggestion contained in the message.

If I were the DM, I would use the following: "A very reasonable suggestion causes the save to be made with a penalty (such as -1 or -2)" and impose a -2 penalty on Inky's Will save.

What would the very reasonable suggestion be? I'm assuming it would come after the staggeringly unreasonable suggestion of "person divorcing me, remarry me."

[Oerlaf]

What would the very reasonable suggestion be? I'm assuming it would come after the staggeringly unreasonable suggestion of "person divorcing me, remarry me."

The suggestion spell is limited to a sentence or two, and the demand spell I'm talking about can contain the first spell in the message. The first part of the demand gives the reason. The suggestion need not be reasonable even in 3.5. The last two sentences are the suggestion itself. It just must sound reasonable. Since there are precedents in real world, where couples divorced and then made up again, I fail to see what unreasonable is there.

That part is taken from the suggestion spell, which the demand contains. If the suggestion sounds very reasonable, the target has a -1 or -2 penalty on their Will save against the suggestion.

[Peelee]

The suggestion is limited to a sentence or two. The first part of the demand gives the reason. The suggestion need not be reasonable even in 3.5. The last two sentences are the suggestion itself. It just must sound reasonable. Since there are precedents in real world, where couples divorced and then made up again, I fail to see what unreasonable is there.

There are precedents in the real world of a person surviving multiple atomic bomb blasts, but I wouldn't call "expecting to survive even one" reasonable. Similarly, I would call V saying to Inky "I'm sorry, so take me back now" staggeringly unreasonable.

[Oerlaf]

There are precedents in the real world of a person surviving multiple atomic bomb blasts, but I wouldn't call "expecting to survive even one" reasonable. Similarly, I would call V saying to Inky "I'm sorry, so take me back now" staggeringly unreasonable.

Perhaps. But the spell does not require the suggestion to be reasonable. It only requires the suggestion sound reasonable.

For example, in real life if a spouse is caught cheating, how would he or she reasonably act? Begging for forgiveness, of course!

[Peelee]

Perhaps. But the spell does not require the suggestion to be reasonable. It only requires the suggestion sound reasonable.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that holds and also Inky doesn't have massive negative modifiers to interactions with V. Spell is good for an hour per level, which means once the timers up, it's back to divorce town, population: Vaarsuvius.

[Oerlaf]

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that holds and also Inky doesn't have massive negative modifiers to interactions with V. Spell is good for an hour per level, which means once the timers up, it's back to divorce town, population: Vaarsuvius.

It's not that easy. It takes a DC 25 Sense Motive check to discern that Inky behaved under the influence of an enchantment spell, and nowhere in the SRD did I find that the target knows it has been a target of the spell unless it succeeds on a saving throw in the case the spell has no obvious visual effects.

[137beth]

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that holds and also Inky doesn't have massive negative modifiers to interactions with V. Spell is good for an hour per level, which means once the timers up, it's back to divorce town, population: Vaarsuvius.

Now you are just being silly. The population of divorce town also includes Inkyrius, since they too are getting divorced

[Kish]

Holy crap. "I'd just mind control my spouse into taking me back, since in my judgment I'm sufficiently remorseful for what I previously did that they should forgive me" manages to be even worse than Dr. Zero's "shove away the actual events of the comic and impose something else in their place" approach.

[Vinyadan]

I Want Power! I Want Power! I Want Power! I Want Power! I Want Power! I Want... Oh, hi. How are the kids? MORE POWER!

[Oerlaf]

Holy crap. "I'd just mind control my spouse into taking me back, since in my judgment I'm sufficiently remorseful for what I previously did that they should forgive me" manages to be even worse than Dr. Zero's "shove away the actual events of the comic and impose something else in their place" approach.

I acknowledge that this kind of mind control is an evil act. However, if one has no other choice left and has the power to fix it, why not?

If I were Severus Snape, I would cast Obliviate on Lily Evans without any remorse or brew an oblivion potion :-)

And there is one spell that also could possibly fix everything in a moment of time. However, this spell does have an Evil descriptor unlike a demand one. Mindrape from BoVD. If the target fails a Will save, the caster learns everything that creature knows, and the caster can erase or add memories as she sees fit. It is a 9th-level spell though.

[Darth Paul]

Consider that Inkyrius' motive for divorce was also based on witnessing V cast the Familicide spell, which V explained in excruciating detail. It's hard to believe Inky was just off panel and didn't get the gist of it.

They also admit that V might have made the only prudent choice in saving their family from the dragon. That's not the point. The point is, now the family is saved, and V is still (to all appearances) an avatar of pure arcane evil power. V isn't letting it go. So, Inky makes the correct judgement that their family isn't really the uppermost thing in V's mind. V doesn't just want to save their family- V must fix everything, and do it with arcane power. That's the point of V's character arc, after all- and V has to get broken by Xykon before learning that you can't fix everything with arcane power. But man, you can sure break a lot of stuff. Your family's hearts, things like that.

[RatElemental]

I acknowledge that this kind of mind control is an evil act. However, if one has no other choice left and has the power to fix it, why not?

If I were Severus Snape, I would cast Obliviate on Lily Evans without any remorse or brew an oblivion potion :-)

And there is one spell that also could possibly fix everything in a moment of time. However, this spell does have an Evil descriptor unlike a demand one. Mindrape from BoVD. If the target fails a Will save, the caster learns everything that creature knows, and the caster can erase or add memories as she sees fit. It is a 9th-level spell though.

Even more heinously, the programmed amnesia spell does more or less the exact same thing but isn't flagged evil.

But then I think the only really ethical way to use enchantment magic in this situation would begin and end at getting them to listen to and let you make your case without it, then accept whatever the decision may be. Even that probably goes a bit too far though, I think.

[Dr.Zero]

Holy crap. "I'd just mind control my spouse into taking me back, since in my judgment I'm sufficiently remorseful for what I previously did that they should forgive me" manages to be even worse than Dr. Zero's "shove away the actual events of the comic and impose something else in their place" approach.

Actually I didn't shove away any actual event, mind you.
It's the interpretation that, somehow, I'm supposed to give to those events that clearly clashes with the interpretation I'd give it in real life.
If you have problem with it, imagine V being not a genderless fantasy-powerful-wizard, but a female successful surgeon, who needs to go to operate someone; or a very successful policewoman expert in terrorism, who needs to go to talk about hostages. Shouting and clenching tightly her fists in rage and frustation at the the start, then giving up at the end. And leave Ink's speeches exactly as they are. If you cannot see the psychological manipulative attitude, fine, because that's the most clear explanation I can give.

Said that, I don't want another "slaves must stay slave, if fighting for freedom means hurting other people", "gods don't consider their followers like cattle, because they are not literally cattle" and so on endless debate, so I'll stop to derail the thread and won't reply anymore.

[Themrys]

Actually I didn't shove away any actual event, mind you.
It's the interpretation that, somehow, I'm supposed to give to those events that clearly clashes with the interpretation I'd give it in real life.
If you have problem with it, imagine V being not a genderless fantasy-powerful-wizard, but a female successful surgeon, who needs to go to operate someone; or a very successful policewoman expert in terrorism, who needs to go to talk about hostages. Shouting and clenching tightly her fists in rage and frustation at the the start, then giving up at the end. And leave Ink's speeches exactly as they are. If you cannot see the psychological manipulative attitude, fine, because that's the most clear explanation I can give.

I just yesterday read a book on domestic abuse. A book by an expert. And ... I do not see what you see there.

If you have so much interaction with abusive men that you immediately interpret Inky as such, I feel sorry for you.

You must be aware that Inkyrius does not know what Vaarsuvius is doing at the moment (unlike Durkon, V never said anything about regularly sending home)

To Inky, it looks like V is just running around adventuring and killing the monster of the week, rather than trying to save the world.

And there's quite a few things that speak against Inky being an abuser.

For one, Vaarsuvius obviously went off adventuring (which at this time was simply, let's say, a career improving move) leaving Inky to shoulder the responsibility for caring for the children while completing his baker apprenticeship. Men who think themselves above women do not often shoulder the double burden of breadwinner baker and caring for children so that their wife can advance her career. Not saying it can't happen, but it is rather unlikely.

Second, when Inky told V that the kids were with his parents and there was a fancy dinner on the table ... it seemed rather like V was the one who acted in a hurtful way.

And then there's the very important fact of V having evil speech bubbles. That is, at the very least, akin to someone obviously suffering from severe drug addiction in the real world.

So, perhaps Inky is a man who, unaware that his successful surgeon wife is still on duty at the hospital and urgently needs to operate on someone, begs her to stay home and deal with her drug problem.
A bit different.