How many times can a character expect to be returned to life from levels 9 to 16?

[DracoDei]

Exactly what it says in the title.

More precisely I'm asking how many levels are likely to be lost in most campaigns to Raise Dead, Resurrection, and similar less-than-perfect means of revivification. Are their any particular bands in this level range where death is more/less common?

Actual play results are especially valuable, but, if possible, please give your impression of if the campaign was of average, lower than average, or above average lethality.

This is for some homebrew I'm working on, but since I'm asking for play-test data from campaigns that don't necessarily involve homebrew, this is the appropriate place to ask.

More specifically (in case anyone was curious), I am designing a base class* with a class feature that means how many times you were returned to life before the campaign starts actually makes a difference.
*Mythos, and thus rather high-powered.

[Elder_Basilisk]

It depends on the campaign, players, and characters. When I played through Age of Worms, we had a death at level 5 or so, a TPK at level 7, and then we didn't have another death until level 19 or 20 (and then it was only one or two deaths and they were fixed immediately). In other campaigns and in organized play campaigns though, I've seen players with a lot of deaths under their belt. Sometimes it's a campaign/adventure issue. Tomb of Horrors will often rack up a higher body count than Valley of the Pretty Butterflies and Ponies and Fluffy Nonthreatening Bunnies. (Though if I ever saw an adventure that really had that name, I'd suspect it was ironic and be prepared for a meatgrinder). It will also depend upon the DM. Some DMs couldn't kill an 8th level PC with the tarrasque but other DMs threaten epic level characters with kobolds. And it depends on the players too. The proverb is, "stupidity leads to character creation" and I've played with some people who can't get a PC to 5th level in an organized play campaign without dying at least once while other players will take multiple PCs to retirement with at most one death.

In general, though, I think that deaths will often cluster around:

Level 1. Orc+greataxe+natural 20+1st level PC = character creation. First level characters are fragile and they will often die just to bad luck.
Level 5-6. players start to encounter a lot of things they may not have run up against before: fireball, 3d6 negative channel energy, trolls and dire apes with rend, dive pouncing griffons, raging barbarians with two attacks per round. Those who aren't prepared and who don't adapt quickly create a death toll. These are also the levels where a lot of ineffective builds begin to show their weaknesses. The guy who though wizard 1/rogue 2/monk 2 was a good idea is really starting to feel the pain. Full BAB classes start to pull away from 3/4 BABs who've been relying on a high stat and a big weapon without further build investment.
Level 11-13. The game changes again. A lot more foes have spell like abilities, high DR, and alternate movement modes. The foes who are just straightforward melee beatsticks have really started to toughen up.
Level 16+. At this point, the game starts to really depend upon your character's preparation. A lot of encounters can be instantly deadly if you haven't pepped mind blank/death ward/life's grace/etc.

[TheCorsairMalac]

My group is just ending a campaign that's run from 1st level to 17th. I would describe our campaign as above average lethality(Beholders, disintegration rays, flesh to stone rays, black lotus extract, monsters that deal 2d6 constitution damage, a grappling match with an adult dragon...etc. Here's what I've gathered as far as deaths and resurrections:

With four players we totaled 5 deaths and uncounted close calls. Everyone died once. The wizard died twice. Two deaths happened before 10th level. Three happened after level 10. Only one was from hit point loss(On a critical hit). All 4 other deaths were from failed saving throws. One to black lotus extract, one to a fireball, one to the death throes of a frost worm, one to a paralysis/coup-de-grace combo.

Unless your players are especially crafty and careful, I would expect them to die at least once each in the level 10-15 portion of the game. Save-or-die abilities are definitely the most likely way to go. Unexpectedly, fortitude and reflex saves seemed more lethal than will saves.

[Pex]

How often is a character expected to die? I'm personally more concerned about how often a Raise Dead or Resurrection is needed rather than gaining their benefit at all. If Raise Dead is happening too often, the real question is why are characters dying too often. If it's one particular player, that's on him and should be taught to play better, told to knock it off if he's being obtuse on purpose, or shown the door. If it's multiple players then it's on the DM. He should be taught to run the game better, told to knock it off if he's killing PCs on purpose, or removed from the DM chair.

[DracoDei]

It depends on the campaign, players, and characters. When I played through Age of Worms, we had a death at level 5 or so, a TPK at level 7, and then we didn't have another death until level 19 or 20 (and then it was only one or two deaths and they were fixed immediately). In other campaigns and in organized play campaigns though, I've seen players with a lot of deaths under their belt. Sometimes it's a campaign/adventure issue. Tomb of Horrors will often rack up a higher body count than Valley of the Pretty Butterflies and Ponies and Fluffy Nonthreatening Bunnies. (Though if I ever saw an adventure that really had that name, I'd suspect it was ironic and be prepared for a meatgrinder). It will also depend upon the DM. Some DMs couldn't kill an 8th level PC with the tarrasque but other DMs threaten epic level characters with kobolds. And it depends on the players too. The proverb is, "stupidity leads to character creation" and I've played with some people who can't get a PC to 5th level in an organized play campaign without dying at least once while other players will take multiple PCs to retirement with at most one death.

In general, though, I think that deaths will often cluster around:

Level 1. Orc+greataxe+natural 20+1st level PC = character creation. First level characters are fragile and they will often die just to bad luck.
Level 5-6. players start to encounter a lot of things they may not have run up against before: fireball, 3d6 negative channel energy, trolls and dire apes with rend, dive pouncing griffons, raging barbarians with two attacks per round. Those who aren't prepared and who don't adapt quickly create a death toll. These are also the levels where a lot of ineffective builds begin to show their weaknesses. The guy who though wizard 1/rogue 2/monk 2 was a good idea is really starting to feel the pain. Full BAB classes start to pull away from 3/4 BABs who've been relying on a high stat and a big weapon without further build investment.
Level 11-13. The game changes again. A lot more foes have spell like abilities, high DR, and alternate movement modes. The foes who are just straightforward melee beatsticks have really started to toughen up.
Level 16+. At this point, the game starts to really depend upon your character's preparation. A lot of encounters can be instantly deadly if you haven't pepped mind blank/death ward/life's grace/etc.

My group is just ending a campaign that's run from 1st level to 17th. I would describe our campaign as above average lethality(Beholders, disintegration rays, flesh to stone rays, black lotus extract, monsters that deal 2d6 constitution damage, a grappling match with an adult dragon...etc. Here's what I've gathered as far as deaths and resurrections:

With four players we totaled 5 deaths and uncounted close calls. Everyone died once. The wizard died twice. Two deaths happened before 10th level. Three happened after level 10. Only one was from hit point loss(On a critical hit). All 4 other deaths were from failed saving throws. One to black lotus extract, one to a fireball, one to the death throes of a frost worm, one to a paralysis/coup-de-grace combo.

Unless your players are especially crafty and careful, I would expect them to die at least once each in the level 10-15 portion of the game. Save-or-die abilities are definitely the most likely way to go. Unexpectedly, fortitude and reflex saves seemed more lethal than will saves.

Let me summarize just to double check that we are communicating clearly: Between the two of you, you are saying that the number of average deaths should be some fraction until about level 13, where it would actually hit "One full death on average", and that the rate of increase should increase at level 10 or 11 and* then continue to climb fairly sharply until level 15 where it should slow down in its rate of increase until the character hits level 17.

Remember, if we ignore such things as hiring casters from outside the party, I only care about the 9 to 17 range. Anything at 8th or lower means Raise Dead may not be something that is within price reach/available in the first place. At 17th or higher True Resurrection can be assumed, and so no experience points are lost to level loss.
*Compared to the jump from "just hit level 9 for the first time" to "ditto, but for 10th".

Spoiler: Behind the scenes... read this if you think it would help but DO NOT let yourself get distracted from answering the question(s) I actually asked.

Show

Quick and Dirty Overview of Mythos Classes:

1. Not my invention
2. Very high-powered (meant to bring non-fullcasters closer to Tier 2 so they can play with the wizards and clerics).
3. Work a bit like the warlock in that you get a menu of options to choose from when leveling up, but you can use all the options you have selected at-will with a few rare exceptions.
4. Can spend XPs and GPs to buy additional picks off the various lists of powers. This can only be done if you have at least half your class levels in the particular class in question.

The particular class I am trying to create is called the Phileotheysia. It does not have its own thread yet. "Sacrifice, sometimes to the point of martyrdom" is one of their themes.

In aid of this, a quirk of their class features is that when they would lose XPs for coming back to life, those XPs instead go into a separate pool*. They still end up losing a level, they just have some XPs to spend on buying more goodies. Not actually a benefit in the course of playing them, but still better than completely losing those XPs.
*Very vaguely like an Artificer's crafting reserve, but not filled up by leveling, but only by being returned to life by a method that results in level loss.

As a stickler for mathmatical accuracy, I thought I would provide an optional rule about character creation at level 9+ that gives a few bonus XPs based on the number of times the character would have died on average reaching that level. Or rather that an average character from a class that doesn't have any special quirks about being revivified, because I want to be a bit conservative here. I suspect most GMs won't allow this anyway, but my intellectual nature requires me to include it.

How often is a character expected to die? I'm personally more concerned about how often a Raise Dead or Resurrection is needed rather than gaining their benefit at all. If Raise Dead is happening too often, the real question is why are characters dying too often. If it's one particular player, that's on him and should be taught to play better, told to knock it off if he's being obtuse on purpose, or shown the door. If it's multiple players then it's on the DM. He should be taught to run the game better, told to knock it off if he's killing PCs on purpose, or removed from the DM chair.

I wasn't asking "what to do if it is happening too often", I was asking "Assuming revivification with level loss usually (always) happens for deaths in that 9 to 17 range of levels, what is the average number of deaths that a character of any given level can be expected to have racked up?"

Note that fractions count. We are talking about averages after all.

[Florian]

Actual play results are especially valuable, but, if possible, please give your impression of if the campaign was of average, lower than average, or above average lethality.

With me, it ends up mostly being entirely TPK or just some hp damage in the level range we talk about here. Instant-Rez spells like Breath of Life did a lot to make it that way, that why the mentioned Rez spells never really show up.
For the few situations real resurrection had to be used in past campaigns, the players mostly teleported somewhere a True Resurrection was available (or used a Binding spell to call in an Outsider that could do it on the spot), and circumvented the use of lesser spells like Reincarnate or Resurrection.

[DracoDei]

I take it breath of life doesn't lose one a level then?

[Florian]

I take it breath of life doesn't lose one a level then?

Nope. But it must be cast immediately after death occurred, so mostly still in combat.

[Quertus]

This seems like a trick question.

Revivify results in no loss of level, and comes on line at level 9.

Regeneration, Close Wounds, and Amulet of Emergency Healing can prevent death from damage, and can come on line even earlier.

Even a single charge of a Ring of Nine Lives can prevent most any death.

And many characters who die are not resurrected, even if the option is available.

So let's see... What can I remember...

Key: K H G Q G M S N X

Party 0: 5 characters, 3 final deaths, 5 deaths+++++, 3 prevented deaths in 4 levels.

Party 1: 4 characters, 1 death+ in 2 levels.
Party 2: 4 characters, 1 death- in 2 levels.
Party 3: 4 characters, 0 deaths in 2 levels.
Party 4: 6 characters, 2 final deaths, ~30 not deaths in 8 levels
Party 5: 5 characters, 1 death+ in 3 levels
Party 6: 5+5 characters, 0 deaths in 8 levels
Party 7: 5+5 characters, 1 death+, 1 not death, 1 cohort final death in 8 levels
Party 8: 7 characters, 3 final death in 6 levels.

Most of the groups I'm in really don't like to lose levels, so we'll spring for true resurrection (scroll, or cast directly).

So, in about 240 character levels in that range, I have:
8 deaths where they brought in a new character;
8 deaths where they did not lose a level;
1 death where they lost a level;
~34 events which were technically not deaths due to regeneration or immediate action responses.

it's looking like a character who survived through that range will have an average of one resurrection per 30 levels (or about one per 15 levels, if you count bringing a new character, which it sounds like it should). But I may be forgetting some deaths in there somewhere.