OOTS #1155 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

Damn, the dwarf supernatural safety measures plain suck if vampires can just waltz in such an important place.

How did they exactly survive so long without some other random vampire just taking over?

Vampires are rare, and the ones that existed to date have never had reason to interfere in a vote to affect the decision of a demigod who only occasionally even needs to cast a vote in a secret meeting that 99.999....% of mortals never know about.

It's really not farfetched.

[Ivrytwr]

Oh, no! Look out Mother they're right behind you!
Thanks Giant.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

it seems like the bad guy's plan relies heavily on the Idiot Ball trope for it to work.

No, it simply means you are jumping to conclusions.

Grey Wolf

[GregTD]

On the plus side, they won't be killing her

[schmunzel]

I still fail to see how this plan is gonna work, like, at all.

Case 1, they kill and vamp all the elders who then proceed to vote. The dwarf demigod receives a bunch of "yes" from undead vampire dwarves matching Hel's affiliation. Huh.
Case 2, they dominate them all who then proceed to vote. The dwarf demigod receives a bunch of highly questionable "yes" that would doom the entire dwarven race and doesn't even bother to scry down for a second to make sure no foul play is at hand. Huh.

Hopefully there'll be some twist or reveal to make this more believable, because as of now it seems like the bad guy's plan relies heavily on the Idiot Ball trope for it to work.

"You cast that vote and I wont kill your daughter.
deal????"

how about that??

sch

[GregTD]

As OotS knows the purpose of the vampire's invasion, this leads to the question of why they bothered with Thor's temple. They could have moved to the real target and wait for Durkula's party to come to them.

Because so long as the bad guys are just dominating people, the harm they're doing can be easily reversed.

Get to full strength, THEN attack.

As for "why didn't they go to the Council in the first place?" Because having your enemy divide his forces makes a good time to whittle him down. Especially if you can attack the enemy in a place where there are no innocent victims around.

Which makes going after Greg's forces far away from the Council building the right choice.

[137beth]

Vampiric irony! Aside from dominating the dwarves though, I'm not sure what other tricks the vamps have up their sleeves.

[Rrmcklin]

Vampires are rare, and the ones that existed to date have never had reason to interfere in a vote to affect the decision of a demigod who only occasionally even needs to cast a vote in a secret meeting that 99.999....% of mortals never know about.

It's really not farfetched.

Basically. It's something we, as the audience, think about because we know it's actually happening, but nothing about this situation (or something similar) should be taken as likely enough to warrant particularly strong protections.

[SilverCacaobean]

Close to the surface? The theory about Durkon finding a way to expose the Vampires to sunlight sounds more and more likely.

[GregTD]

I still fail to see how this plan is gonna work, like, at all.

Case 1, they kill and vamp all the elders who then proceed to vote. The dwarf demigod receives a bunch of "yes" from undead vampire dwarves matching Hel's affiliation. Huh.
Case 2, they dominate them all who then proceed to vote. The dwarf demigod receives a bunch of highly questionable "yes" that would doom the entire dwarven race and doesn't even bother to scry down for a second to make sure no foul play is at hand. Huh.

Hopefully there'll be some twist or reveal to make this more believable, because as of now it seems like the bad guy's plan relies heavily on the Idiot Ball trope for it to work.

What part of "the Dwarf God swore an oath to abide by the votes of the Clan Council" did you miss?

[Rrmcklin]

What part of "the Dwarf God swore an oath to abide by the votes of the Clan Council" did you miss?

I assume the part where Davlin isn't assumed to be stupid enough to go by the votes of a bunch of obviously dominated dwarves that aren't thinking for themselves.

Now, my first thought would be "there are certain facts about the plan that we don't know", but "how will this work" is still a valid thing to wonder about.

[GregTD]

I assume the part where Davlin isn't assumed to be stupid enough to go by the votes of a bunch of obviously dominated dwarves that aren't thinking for themselves.

Now, my first thought would be "there are certain facts about the plan that we don't know", but "how will this work" is still a valid thing to wonder about.

Did you even look at the comic before "responding"?

[Elanasaurus]

Vampiric irony! Aside from dominating the dwarves though, I'm not sure what other tricks the vamps have up their sleeves.

They could use violence! And threats of violence, as already mentioned here.

[Peelee]

I assume the part where Davlin isn't assumed to be stupid enough to go by the votes of a bunch of obviously dominated dwarves that aren't thinking for themselves.

One could assume that Dvalin would immediately stop Hel's plan to begin with, going by that logic. It's not a matter of intelligence. He has to do things a certain way. He's the one who specifically set things up that way. It's not stupidity, it's being hoisted on one's own petard.

[Verappo]

She's only existed for a page and I already love this long-suffering daughter. She's obviously heard this a thousand times before. I will tentatively put her in my "second favourite dwarf" category for now.

In my mind, long-suffering daughter is basically the dwarven equivalent of O'chul in that her and Roy have never met before, but he would still feel an "odd, spiritual kinship" with her

[Aveline]

Close to the surface? The theory about Durkon finding a way to expose the Vampires to sunlight sounds more and more likely.

Ooh! Ooh! I like this a lot.

Durkon uses the Hammer of Loki Sucks to collapse the roof and shine light on the remaining vampires, poetically mirroring Tenrin's sacrifice.

[Elanasaurus]

One could assume that Dvalin wouldn't immediately condemn nearly all dwarves to Hel to begin with, going by that logic. It's not a matter of intelligence. He has to do things a certain way. He's the one who specifically set things up that way. It's not stupidity, it's being hoisted on one's own petard.

I think it's one thing to obey the will of the Council, and another thing to decide their fate for himself. The question is whether the vampires' votes count as "the will of the Council".

[Rrmcklin]

One could assume that Dvalin wouldn't immediately condemn nearly all dwarves to Hel to begin with, going by that logic. It's not a matter of intelligence. He has to do things a certain way. He's the one who specifically set things up that way. It's not stupidity, it's being hoisted on one's own petard.

I mean, I think there's a pretty clear distinction between asking someone's opinion/vote even when their answer is likely to be obvious, and going "well, these people are clearly mind-controlled by a malicious third party, but it still counts as their voice".

[Larre Gannd]

In my mind, long-suffering daughter is basically the dwarven equivalent of O'chul in that her and Roy have never met before, but he would still feel an "odd, spiritual kinship" with her

I mean, Roy has never been slow to state his opinions, except when it comes to Paladins.

[DuoRogue]

Oh right, this is an issue that needs solving. WHOOPS

[Aveline]

Did you even look at the comic before "responding"?

Did you?

The comic says he swore an oath to obey the will of the council, and if the elders are dominated then their votes do not reflect their will.

[Keltest]

One could assume that Dvalin would immediately stop Hel's plan to begin with, going by that logic. It's not a matter of intelligence. He has to do things a certain way. He's the one who specifically set things up that way. It's not stupidity, it's being hoisted on one's own petard.

Dvalin presumably cares about the legitimacy of the vote. To that end, the idea that he would accept a "yes" vote at face value strains credulity.

[schmunzel]

She's only existed for a page and I already love this long-suffering daughter. She's obviously heard this a thousand times before. I will tentatively put her in my "second favourite dwarf" category for now.
<snip>

Who else is in there ??

Ooh! Ooh! I like this a lot.

Durkon uses the Hammer of Loki Sucks to collapse the roof and shine light on the remaining vampires, poetically mirroring Tenrin's sacrifice.

Buy burying a lot of other (presumably) innocent dwarves under said rubble with arms of their loved ones still firmly grasped???

sch

[Rrmcklin]

Did you even look at the comic before "responding"?

1) Unnecessarily rude, and putting response in quotes means nothing here.

2) Yes, I've read the strip. It still says nothing about the actual issue people are having. If Davlin is actually going to go "vampires dominating them and making them say something still counts" then, yes, that is ridiculous and I understand being annoyed with it. I just assume there's more to it than that that we haven't been filled in on yet.

[Fyraltari]

As OotS knows the purpose of the vampire's invasion, this leads to the question of why they bothered with Thor's temple. They could have moved to the real target and wait for Durkula's party to come to them.

The vampire bothered because Durkon* wanted an ironic place to kill Roy inside of (plus more vampires) and probably wanted to kill him in person. The Order went to the temple because it was their only way into the city. They attacked Durkon* rather than go to the council chamber because they didn't know he had sent vampires ahead and they didn't want to give him a chance to kill more people (I think).

Bytheway, seems like a good time to double down on my theory that Durkon's destruction is going to be the roof. The elder just mentioned how close they are to the surface.

You know, I just realize that it makes a whole lot of sense for Firmament (meaning sky) to be the highest city of the Dwarven Lands and the seat of the Priest of Thor: Thor is a sky god.

Also, I like how she can't even think of something better to do, she's just sure that if she thought about it she'd be able to find something better to do. The epitome of complaining for complaining's sake. Love it.

Dwarves live monger, that means they have more practice at being old.

None of the elders can be vamped without the spell that speeds up the process. Do any of the vamps left have it?

Yes, probably. Two of the Creeders prepared the ambush and it's later confirmed that it meant accelarating vampires. One of these two is with the Ex-Exarch and it seems reasonable that he preapared the spell as well. Dominating these guartds insteas of vamping them was probably to avoid giving it away to the Elders.

Vampiric irony! Aside from dominating the dwarves though, I'm not sure what other tricks the vamps have up their sleeves.

That's the point don't you think?

[Peelee]

I think it's one thing to obey the will of the Council, and another thing to decide their fate for himself. The question is whether the vampires' votes count as "the will of the Council".

I mean, I think there's a pretty clear distinction between asking someone's opinion/vote even when their answer is likely to be obvious, and going "well, these people are clearly mind-controlled by a malicious third party, but it still counts as their voice".

Dvalin presumably cares about the legitimacy of the vote. To that end, the idea that he would accept a "yes" vote at face value strains credulity.

Assume that Dvalin does find out. He still doesn't know the actual will of the council, and we're right back to "welp he just decides himself." Which is the one thing we know he won't do, and I highly doubt the plot will move towards "well we'll just wait until we get a good council vote."

[Aveline]

Buy burying a lot of other (presumably) innocent dwarves under said rubble with arms of their loved ones still firmly grasped???

sch

He could do it safely, if they are near enough to the surface. There's only two actual vampires so only a small patch of sun is needed. It would still be a poetic reflection.

[SilverCacaobean]

I mean, I think there's a pretty clear distinction between asking someone's opinion/vote even when their answer is likely to be obvious, and going "well, these people are clearly mind-controlled by a malicious third party, but it still counts as their voice".

The point is that Dvalin isn't the final arbiter of their decision in any way, so he is probably unable to nullify just like that. He must have set up some rules that he is bound to follow for this procedure, and even though I'm not sure what exactly the vampires will do, they must have a way of subverting said rules.

[GregTD]

Dvalin presumably cares about the legitimacy of the vote. To that end, the idea that he would accept a "yes" vote at face value strains credulity.

Well, congratulations! you don't need to feel any dramatic tension, because you "know" exactly what Dvalin will do even if Hel's plan is carried out perfectly!

Cool! So you can kick back, watch, and enjoy the artwork, while the rest of us can follow the plot.

Looks like a great deal for everyone involved, no?

[Rrmcklin]

Assume that Dvalin does find out. He still doesn't know the actual will of the council, and we're right back to "welp he just decides himself." Which is the one thing we know he won't do, and I highly doubt the plot will move towards "well we'll just wait until we get a good council vote."

That is an interesting point I suppose - he might not actually meet them in person. But then that leaves the question of why dominate the Council instead of just killing all of them and send the vote without anyone knowing?

And if he does meet them in person him not being able to tell would be ridiculous unless the swirly eye effect isn't visible to the characters. But I see no reason to think that. So it kind of seems like you're admitting there's no way this does make sense.

Because while exploiting archaic rules and loophole abuse can go so far, eventually the audience is going to start calling bull**** on things.

The point is that Dvalin isn't the final arbiter of their decision in any way, so he is probably unable to nullify just like that. He must have set up some rules that he is bound to follow for this procedure, and even though I'm not sure what exactly the vampires will do, they must have a way of subverting said rules.

How many times am I going to have to say I think there's more to this? I'm responding to the idea that "what, sure he'll tell they're dominated but it won't matter" and why some people (myself included) would have an issue with that. I don't think that's going to be the case, but if it is, it's perfectly understandable to dislike it.