LGBTAitP #39: Making Your Way in the World Today....

[Lentrax]

... takes everything you've got
Taking a break from all your worries, sure would help a lot
Wouldn't you like to get away?

Hello folks! This is the thirty-ninth edition of the LGBTAitP thread! The thread is to support, celebrate and discuss anything that falls outside the bounds of what is heterocisnormative. It is first of all a support thread, and then an education thread. If you want answers about some of the more difficult and trigger inducing aspects of LGBTA, there are a number of people listed below who can answer questions.

Please note that although the title of the thread names only the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Asexual communities, it is intended as an all inclusive environment. Everyone is welcome. L, G, B,T, A, Q, I, A, N, V, P, R, Q, Ω, ♅, everyone. As long as they behave themselves.

If you have a question or two about LGBTA+, you can ask it here! You can ask for advice and support in here.

In addition, many members are willing to give private advice one on one, either through email or PM. The best way to do this is asking for PM help in thread, or else to PM one of the following people:

Spoiler

Show

Name: Especially familiar with the topic(s) of
KenderWizard: General/basics, gender and feminism, bisexuality
Musashi: General/basics, asexuality/demisexuality, depression
noparlpf: General/basics, asexuality, greysexuality, biology, Skype
Lea Plath: Genderfluidity
Lycunadari: Genderqueer and agendered
Eldest: General/basics, bisexuality, polyamory, pansexuality will Skype(voice if needed, no video)
Karen Lynn: General/basics, pansexuality, polyamory, will Skype(no voice or video, however)
HMS Sophia: Trans stuff (esp hormones)
Lix Lorn: General/basics
Tanail: Trans stuff (esp emotional issues), Skype(no voice or video, however)
Absol197: Gender identity issues
Warkitty: Academic/technical discussions
Lentrax: General/basics, depression, bullying
Wormwood74: Transgender legal issues, transgender outside contacts
Astrella: GSRM rights, feminism, trans stuff, Skype
Asteron Questar: Relationships, depression
Mystic Muse: Skype-y goodness.
Socratov: Skype-ness
Chess435: Skype
Irish Musician: PM, Rants/Venting
Metditto: PM/Skype for L, T, GQ, BDSM(Off-thread or Spoiler Triggered), demisexual, feminism, therapy, depression, dissociative identities
inuyasha: Shoulder on which to cry, someone to listen
Partysan: PM/Skype, polyamory, pansexuality, BDSM(Off-thread or Spoiler Triggered), Rants/Venting

Some people are also willing to talk off-board, through Skype or email or other means, this is especially useful if your question involves board-forbidden topics such as religion or politics. Also, we can't (and ethically shouldn't!) give medical advice. If you need medical advice, please see a professional!


Here are the rules of this thread!

• Everyone is welcome. Let's try to keep from seeming otherwise.
• Keep this topic free of politics and religion. (so, don't violate the board rules, plz)
• It's beyond the scope of this thread to discuss whether LGBT is "Right." (And really, most discussions probably should avoid moralizing too much anyway)
• Please refrain from posting sexually explicit content. (Keep it friendly as well as board safe )

Here are the links for the previous threads, where much of use or interest may be found:

Spoiler

Show

1. LGBT people in the playground
   
2. LGBT people in the playground - part II
   
3. LGBTitp - part III
   
4. LGBTitp 4: We are a family?
   
5. LGBTitp - Part Five
   
6. LGBTitp - Part Six
   
7. LGBTitp - Part Seven
   
8. LGBTitp - Part Eight
   
9. LGBTitp - Part Nine
   
10. LGBTAitp - Part Ten
    
11. LGBTAitp - Part Eleven
    
12. LGBTAitp - Part Twelve
    
13. LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen
    
14. LGBTAitp - Part Fourteen
    
15. LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen
    
16. LGBTAitp - Part Sixteen
    
17. LGBTAitp - Part Seventeen
    
18. LGBTAitp - Part Eighteen!
    
19. LGBTAitp - Part Nineteen
    
20. LGBTAitp - Part Twenty - Critical Hit!
    
21. LGBTAitp - Part Twenty-One - BLACKJACK!
    
22. LGBTAitP Part 22: The Best There Is
    
23. LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?
    
24. LGBTAitP: Alphabet Soup-with 24 different Vitamins!
    
25. LGBTAitP part 25: Doing Away With Subtitles
    
26. LGBTAitP 26: No Time For Snappy Titles
    
27. LGBTAitP 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
    
28. LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
    
29. LGBTAitP #29: The Rainbow Outreach Program
    
30. LGBTAitP 30: Free Cuddles (Enquire Within)
    
31. LGBTAitP #31: Cuddles Are On Back Order. Have Some Snuggles!
    
32. LGBTAitp #32: The Great Plushie Invasion!
    
33. LGBTAitp #33: The Thread at the End of the Rainbow!
    
34. LGTAitP #34: <3!!
    
35. LGBTAitp #35: What Midlife Crisis? :3
    
36. LGBTAitp #36: May Contain Bites!
    
37. 
    LGBTAitP #37: Once upon a time...
    
38. URL="http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=290671"LGBTAitP #38: Once More With Feeling!![/URL]

And, for reference, here is the Thousand&Wordster Dictionary of Commonly Used LGBTAitp Words and Phrases

Spoiler

Show

Lagerbeta: A fine brewski to be drunk by queers and allies.
LGBT: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans*
Trans*: Transsexual and Transgender
LGBTA: LGBT+Asexual/Allies
QUILTBAG:

Spoiler

Show

Q - Queer and Questioning
U - Unidentified
I - Intersex
L - Lesbian
T - Transgender, Transexual
B - Bisexual
A - Asexual
G - Gay, Genderqueer

Allies: Straight people that support equality for sexuality and gender minorities.
MtF: Male-to-Female: A woman born with male nibblies, who may or may not be seeking HRT and/or SRS. (AKA: trans woman)
FtM: Female-to-Male: A man born with female nibblies, who may or may not be seeking HRT and/or SRS. (AKA: trans man)
GQ: Genderqueer.
CS: Cis-sexual: sex and gender match (a male with male nibblies, a female with female nibblies.
TS: Transsexual: Sex and gender disparity.
HRT: Hormone replacement therapy. MtF's take more progestrogens and oestrogens and FtM's take more testosterone (I think?)
SRS: Sex Reassignment Surgery: Surgery to replace/transform a vagina into a penis, or vice versa depending on direction. Mastectomies or plastic surgery may be used on breasts.
FFS: Facial Feminization Surgery: Plastic surgery to reduce chin/nose/cheekbones. not very common.
AFAB/AMAB: Assigned Female/Male at Birth
FAAB/MAAB: Female/Male Assigned at Birth.


Man: A cisman or transman. Male.
Woman: A ciswoman or transwoman. Female.
Androgyne: Gender Identity with male and female aspects.
Genderfluid: Someone who fluctuates between male and female.
Agendered: Someone who feels neither male nor female.
Third-gendered: Someone who fits in a local society's third gender, usually male performing female tasks, occasionally vice versa.
Masculine: Something generally associated with men.
Feminine: Something generally associated with women.

Lesbian: A woman who is attracted to women.
Gay: A man who is attracted to men.
Homosexual: A person who is attracted to members of their gender.
Heterosexual: A person who is attracted to members of the opposite gender.
Bisexual: A person who is attracted to two genders (usually men and women, sometimes transgender instead of one of those).
Pansexual: A person who is attracted to people regardless of gender.
Asexual: A person who does not feel any/some sexual attraction.
Demisexual: A person who is sexually attracted to someone(s) they have formed an intense emotional relationship with.
Polyamorous: A person who is interested in a relationship with more than one person.
Radosexual: A person who is only attracted to rad people.
Pomosexual: A person who avoids SO labels.

Sexual Orientation: How one identifies who they are attracted to. (SO)
Gender Identity: How one feels inside society's idea of "man, woman, or other". (GI)
Gender Expression: How one expresses their GI to society. (GE)
Significant Other(s): Person you are in a relationship with. (SO)

Webcomics that touch on... Well, everything related to the thread.

Spoiler

Show

Venus Envy. Long dead webcomic. The creator has chosen not to continue it and move forward in life.
Rain. A story of a MtF girl in high school.
Khaos Komix.As the creator puts it(from his site): "A complete GLBTWTFBBQ comic about gender and sexuality. (Trigger warnings for EVERYTHING and nothing is safe for work.)"
Always Raining Here. "Adrian is heartsick, Carter is horny. This is a story about their misadventures as awkward teenagers as they fumble through unrequited romances."
Tripping over you.An awkward blind date leads to better options.
Questionable Content. The LGBTA characters are well done, and not stereotypes.
What's normal anyway. An FtM webcomic. Seems decent so far.

I know I missed a few webcomics, and if anyone finds more, feel free to PM them to me with a brief description, and I will add them.

The Brand New LGBTA Arts & Crafts Thread!


Thank you all for asking me to start the new thread.

It means a lot to me to know that I have some folks out there who can appreciate the trials and tribulations of one such as I.

I love you all so much... And yeah. Totally shedding tears on my ipad right now.

*so many hugs*

[Dark Elf Bard]

*nuzzles and bloops nose of everyone comfortable*

*gives muffins to everyone who isnt*

I have recently learned to make muffins and that is basically all I eat now.

[Karen Lynn]

D: MAI NOES WAS BOOPEDED!!!

New thread! Gotta say I has nothing really to add yet. Got made into a staff member of another forum for free form role play. Working on my voice more. Have a dermatologist appointment Monday for my skin.

[Kneenibble]

As is semi-traditional for me, budgie hugs for the new thread!

Spoiler

Show

And a special one just for Karen!

Spoiler

Show

Also, hello Dark Elf Bard. You are a muffin yourself.

[Dark Elf Bard]

Knee! I did not know you weren't dead!

[MetDitto]

My queerfriend has a gender therapist appointment for the first time - super excited for zir :3 and zie got confirmation for housing at university so it's all awesome! I have my next therapist appointment next monday and I'm going to ask about HRT, since I've come out to most everyone important except my stepmother... I've already been to my therapist quite a bit and she's awesome so I'm sure she'll say yes and sign stuff but here's something from her website:

Additionally, if you identify as transgender and choose to transition we are happy to facilitate that process, including assistance in telling family members, referrals to medical practitioners, assessments and letters required for surgery, etc. We are available as an ally to accompany you on the journey that you determine will lead to the greatest sense of wholeness and congruence for you.

so it's... I'm hopeful. Also she's helping me with my alters and junk. I also got housing with my friend Sebastian - we got an apartment on campus. Prior to that confirmation I was worried about being put in an all-male dorm but that is no longer an issue. Plan on coming out to him soon :3

[KenderWizard]

((hugs)) for Lentrax
It makes me happy to think that nominating you for the thread opening made you smile.

And a special one just for Karen!

Spoiler

Show

This picture might be The Best Picture.

This is a really interesting story about a woman who had to use a passport that said "M" instead of "F" for several years. She has some funny stories, some crappy stories and some scary stories.

[Astrella]

@MetDitto, that's great!

Does anyone know of some good voice related resources / have some more detailed advice?

Maybe its the speaker on my phone or your mic(assuming phone) but it sounded to me more effeminate, flamboyant male. >.<

Ouch.

(I really don't like the word effeminate, cause it's very gender-policy and I've had it slung at me a lot when I was younger... not that you'd necessarily know that... )

I believe Astrella is talking through her nose, which is why you may think there is a mic/speaker problem.
Advice, if you would like it:

Spoiler

Show

Don't shy away from chest talking, and by chest talking I mean using your diaphragm. In an effort to make your pitch higher, you have moved where your voice comes from, from your throat to your nose. I would urge you to work on talking from your throat, but keep the high pitch of your voice to sound more feminine. Talking through your nose, while easy, will hurt you in the long run, even physically. So I would try using your upper register but at the same time using your diaphragm to push the air through your throat, and not through your nose.

~Matthew~

I don't think the speaking through my nose is cause of the avoiding chest voice, because that's a criticism I've had thrown at me more often even years ago and I think it's mostly because I breathe exclusively through my nose.

Any more advice on how I'd talk through my throat though?

Nice voice, sounds already very feminine
And to answer your question: Yes, i for one record everything.

Thank you.

Hey, that's basically my job around here.

Also, your voice sounds cute. You sound much more American than I expected! I wouldn't be sure if it was a boy or a girl talking if I heard it and didn't know it was you.

Well, most of my English speaking skills come from hanging out with my friends on mumble, and they're primarily US-based.

Just frustrated right now.

I'll calm down in a day or so amd figure it out.

But thanks.

*offers hugs*

Hey there, there's something I'd like to discuss about the LGBT "community" in general.
(Under spoiler, but no trigger that I know of.)

Spoiler

Show

A couple weeks ago, BF and I met with his aunt (who is a transwoman who's started transitioning not too long ago; I'll refer to her as A from now on).
We ended up talking about the LGBT community. Turns out that A tried to get in contact with the city's group, but it went rather badly, and when she invited another transwoman from that group in her home, it went even worse (mainly because that woman went TMI within 2 minutes of knowing each other without being invited to do so).
So, now, A is more or less actively avoiding the community. She just wants to live her life. (No criticism at all, just an observation.)

BF does mostly the same. I'm aware he's on a FtM dedicated forum, but that's mostly to get and share practical advice, and I only know it because he gave me the address. Many of our friends are LGBT, but we met them because of common interests THEN learnt they were LGBT, or through other LGBT friends who might be more in touch with the comm IRL than we do. So, he's not really involved at all either (keeping in mind he's not just trans but bi; still no criticism about involvement or lack thereof).

And here I stand, semi-actively documenting myself and staying in LGBT threads (okay, just this one actually, the parts of the Internet I frequent that happen to have been taken over by radicals don't count). I'm, IMHO, more aware than the average person, but I still look out to educate myself even better. Not sure I'm doing anything that makes a difference, pretty sure I'm not, but I want change.
And I'm kinda sorta an ally, or at least many people would agree I'm not queer enough to ride. (But that's not exactly the point I'm wishing to discuss, because I've accepted that what group I'm supposed to belong to is not what matters, but what I do, and so far I don't think I've done anything bad to people in that aspect.)
So, in light of this, I find I'm in a strange position. In retrospect, I wonder why I'm getting so involved when I don't specifically belong. At which point you're a bad person for not getting involved about an issue - and which issues - and at which point you're bad for getting too involved in something that's not your business - and therefore how much is my business. If I had the right reasons for seeking this comm, or not (given I came because I wanted to educate myself among people who weren't aggressively radicals, and LGBT people tend to have more insight about LGBT issues than, you know, straight cis people*).
At least I know I have the right reasons for staying: you're all great people, I'm glad to help you when I can, and I like to think the advice or comfort I provide can be useful sometimes.

One big thing I've learnt here is that the LGBT "community" - or most communities really - is not actually a monolithic community at all (let me add this is a lesson I've learnt about communities in general, and not just this one). It's mostly just a bunch of people who have one thing in common, but it's not enough to ensure they'll get along. They might want very different things, or they might want to reach the same goal with opposite and contradictory means. And it's very hard to tell who's right. If we could do so, we would have found the ultimate anti-bigotry weapon ages ago.
It's more like there are many smaller LGBT communities, whose members sometimes never really meet at all, because, paradoxically, the one other thing they have in common is they believe they should never have to meet at all. Like, let's say, I'm technically part of the Belgian community here in France but I'd be hard-pressed to find a Belgian here and have no interest to look for one in particular, even though I'm not rejecting my nationality and culture either.

So, what's the underlying interrogation here, you may ask if you've been crazy enough to read the whole wall of text? I'd say it is "Is getting involved in a LGBT comm important for you, and why?". I suppose it might make more sense for allies to answer that one, but I'll welcome all opinions.



*Also about feminist issues, but I'm the sort of person who considers LGBT and feminist issues to be intertwined to an important degree, what with the sex-shaming and body policing etc.

It's been very important. Most of my friends are queer and community and resources have helped me discover things... queer groups can annoy me though, especially with internal biphobia and transphobia and such and there's a lot of adherence to gender stereotypes in some trans groups that really annoys me...

[Jormengand]

New thread! Woo!

Am back. Did you all miss me?

[Irish Musician]

I don't think the speaking through my nose is cause of the avoiding chest voice, because that's a criticism I've had thrown at me more often even years ago and I think it's mostly because I breathe exclusively through my nose.

Any more advice on how I'd talk through my throat though?

Spoiler

Show

I would suggest trying to move you voice back into your throat. What I mean by that is....when you talk through your nose you should be able to feel yourself pushing your voice into your nose. When you bring it back into your throat, you can feel it move back down into it. I have something that might help, it will take some time and will feel REALLY weird considering you breath exclusively through your nose, but try it anyway.

Have you ever acted like you had a cold and stopped you nose up from side your head so no air could get in here anymore? I want you to really concentrate on keeping your nose plugged from the inside (and if you don't know how to do that work on that first) and talking from your throat. Don't try too much in girl-mode voice, I want you to just work on breathing through your mouth more and not using your nose as much. I know it will feel like two steps backwards, but it will really help in the long run by not making your voice so nasally. Once you get the hang of that, try introducing the higher registers into your throat and finding a good high, but not falsetto, register in your voice and really work on pushing from your diaphragm and keeping your voice in your throat. If you have any questions, feel free to ask anytime either here or in PM!

New thread! Woo!

Am back. Did you all miss me?

Course

~Matthew~

[WarKitty]

Rainbow Cat says hello:

Spoiler

Show

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/user_images/2017000/maxygirlforever-2017863_450_448.jpg

[noparlpf]

*snip*
So, what's the underlying interrogation here, you may ask if you've been crazy enough to read the whole wall of text? I'd say it is "Is getting involved in a LGBT comm important for you, and why?". I suppose it might make more sense for allies to answer that one, but I'll welcome all opinions.

Not specifically, no. Partially because asexual doesn't count in some places (it is usually just LGBT after all) and partially because meeting new people in real life is scary.

My queerfriend has a gender therapist appointment for the first time - super excited for zir :3 and zie got confirmation for housing at university so it's all awesome! I have my next therapist appointment next monday and I'm going to ask about HRT, since I've come out to most everyone important except my stepmother... I've already been to my therapist quite a bit and she's awesome so I'm sure she'll say yes and sign stuff but here's something from her website:

so it's... I'm hopeful. Also she's helping me with my alters and junk. I also got housing with my friend Sebastian - we got an apartment on campus. Prior to that confirmation I was worried about being put in an all-male dorm but that is no longer an issue. Plan on coming out to him soon :3

Sounds good.

This is a really interesting story about a woman who had to use a passport that said "M" instead of "F" for several years. She has some funny stories, some crappy stories and some scary stories.

Hm, neat. I'll read it later; I'm in class. (I've already been in this room for six hours and I can't leave for about another four hours. Ugh. Two back-to-back classes, then an evening exam.)

[Jormengand]

Course

~Matthew~

Good good. Situation is henceforth normal.

~Antony~

[Mono Vertigo]

Thanks for your answers so far! The fact I might be more involved in these things than the people close to me who are directly concerned.
Also the whole "safe space" thing. We've seen discussions in this very series of thread on the subject, and sometimes I do wonder how much space I should put between myself and the concerned parties, especially in places that are not specifically labelled as "safe". Should have mentioned in the original post, but that's also part of why I'm thinking about it now.

Thanks for your link, Kender! I'm glad the scary stories weren't as horrible as I'd feared.

@MetDitto: yeah, I'd say you have pretty good reasons to be hopeful. You go, both your friend and you!

[Eldest]

*hugs everybody*

Had a bad day yesterday. Having a good one today. That's all for me right now.

[Mono Vertigo]

*hugs back*
No more yesterdays. Hopefully.

[Eirala]

*hugs everybody*

Had a bad day yesterday. Having a good one today. That's all for me right now.

*hugs*

Also *welcomebackhugs* for Jormengand

[Jormengand]

Also *welcomebackhugs* for Jormengand

*Is welcomebackhugged*

Aie!

[Socratov]

welcome back poeple who have rejoined..., but first a relic form the old thread (alsways wanted to use the word in context )

(big, big relic)

Spoiler

Show

Hey there, there's something I'd like to discuss about the LGBT "community" in general.
(Under spoiler, but no trigger that I know of.)

Spoiler

Show

A couple weeks ago, BF and I met with his aunt (who is a transwoman who's started transitioning not too long ago; I'll refer to her as A from now on).
We ended up talking about the LGBT community. Turns out that A tried to get in contact with the city's group, but it went rather badly, and when she invited another transwoman from that group in her home, it went even worse (mainly because that woman went TMI within 2 minutes of knowing each other without being invited to do so).
So, now, A is more or less actively avoiding the community. She just wants to live her life. (No criticism at all, just an observation.)

BF does mostly the same. I'm aware he's on a FtM dedicated forum, but that's mostly to get and share practical advice, and I only know it because he gave me the address. Many of our friends are LGBT, but we met them because of common interests THEN learnt they were LGBT, or through other LGBT friends who might be more in touch with the comm IRL than we do. So, he's not really involved at all either (keeping in mind he's not just trans but bi; still no criticism about involvement or lack thereof).

And here I stand, semi-actively documenting myself and staying in LGBT threads (okay, just this one actually, the parts of the Internet I frequent that happen to have been taken over by radicals don't count). I'm, IMHO, more aware than the average person, but I still look out to educate myself even better. Not sure I'm doing anything that makes a difference, pretty sure I'm not, but I want change.
And I'm kinda sorta an ally, or at least many people would agree I'm not queer enough to ride. (But that's not exactly the point I'm wishing to discuss, because I've accepted that what group I'm supposed to belong to is not what matters, but what I do, and so far I don't think I've done anything bad to people in that aspect.)
So, in light of this, I find I'm in a strange position. In retrospect, I wonder why I'm getting so involved when I don't specifically belong. At which point you're a bad person for not getting involved about an issue - and which issues - and at which point you're bad for getting too involved in something that's not your business - and therefore how much is my business. If I had the right reasons for seeking this comm, or not (given I came because I wanted to educate myself among people who weren't aggressively radicals, and LGBT people tend to have more insight about LGBT issues than, you know, straight cis people*).
At least I know I have the right reasons for staying: you're all great people, I'm glad to help you when I can, and I like to think the advice or comfort I provide can be useful sometimes.

One big thing I've learnt here is that the LGBT "community" - or most communities really - is not actually a monolithic community at all (let me add this is a lesson I've learnt about communities in general, and not just this one). It's mostly just a bunch of people who have one thing in common, but it's not enough to ensure they'll get along. They might want very different things, or they might want to reach the same goal with opposite and contradictory means. And it's very hard to tell who's right. If we could do so, we would have found the ultimate anti-bigotry weapon ages ago.
It's more like there are many smaller LGBT communities, whose members sometimes never really meet at all, because, paradoxically, the one other thing they have in common is they believe they should never have to meet at all. Like, let's say, I'm technically part of the Belgian community here in France but I'd be hard-pressed to find a Belgian here and have no interest to look for one in particular, even though I'm not rejecting my nationality and culture either.

So, what's the underlying interrogation here, you may ask if you've been crazy enough to read the whole wall of text? I'd say it is "Is getting involved in a LGBT comm important for you, and why?". I suppose it might make more sense for allies to answer that one, but I'll welcome all opinions.



*Also about feminist issues, but I'm the sort of person who considers LGBT and feminist issues to be intertwined to an important degree, what with the sex-shaming and body policing etc.

So, forst off I haven't joined any LGBT community besides here (though I just seem to have gotten stuck here by some wonderful people and their affectionate grappling skills ) and my friend who is LGBT (I don't know if 2 people can be a community, but it always felt like somesuch). I don't have any reason or need to (being a fringe 'member' sometimes called ally, sometimes being that counterargument for the sake of arguing). I do come here however to meet wonderful people and, you know, do the nice thing once in a while... I've got this weird karma thing going on on a conscious level stimulating me in doing good or at the ery least trying to be sensible for myself and others. yeah I'm weird like that. of which part is what matt explains in his post (thanks for that by the way, saves a lot of trouble, toil and effort, and it's really well put).

Very good question, Musashi. I have to go with chess on this one and say, "No, not really." However, LGBTA rights (same sex marriage, equal work practices, etc) are something I very much hold dear and definitely push for in my every day life. I wouldn't necessarily be a part of a LGBTA community because, honestly, a lot of them (this one aside) that I have approached are very, "Oh....you're straight and cis? Well, I guess you can hang around us or whatever, just don't get in our way," kind of thing. It was as if because I was straight, I was somehow automatically against them and wanted all of them to be straight and Cis too. Like you said, in the LGBTA community as a whole, there are lots of smaller mini-communities that seem to branch off from one another, so it does get confusing as to what, exactly, the LGBTA community is.....if it is, in fact, one singular entity.

That being said, I love you all

~Matthew~

(bolding mine), and yeah, this is a major problem within the LGBT community. I have often discussed this with my friend, who basiacally went nuclear at those people when I mentioned I found such people, saying that they "...are a disease, the worst bigots and basically toxic for the entirety of LGBT-kind." (I have edited out the forum unfriendly words a bit, the fragment was in no way pg-13. I doubt it could actually make R-rated...

for the rest happiness and sunshine, courage and wisdom (sorry, have a lot of muscle ache due to new holiday job and using muscles I haven't used in a long time, so maybe after the weekend I have hugs to spare again)

[Lauren]

*nuzzles and bloops nose of everyone comfortable*

*gives muffins to everyone who isnt*

I have recently learned to make muffins and that is basically all I eat now.

Can I have nuzzles and nose bloops AND muffins? I'm greedy.

[MetDitto]

Spoiler

Show

I wouldn't necessarily be a part of a LGBTA community because, honestly, a lot of them (this one aside) that I have approached are very, "Oh....you're straight and cis? Well, I guess you can hang around us or whatever, just don't get in our way," kind of thing.

(bolding mine), and yeah, this is a major problem within the LGBT community. I have often discussed this with my friend, who basiacally went nuclear at those people when I mentioned I found such people, saying that they "...are a disease, the worst bigots and basically toxic for the entirety of LGBT-kind." (I have edited out the forum unfriendly words a bit, the fragment was in no way pg-13. I doubt it could actually make R-rated...

trigger warnings yo.

Spoiler

Show

It's important that people realize GSRMs are so marginalized in almost every society that safe spaces for them are necessary. Straight people and cis people have privilege, whether they like it or not. They can say anything about being straight or cis anywhere they want, with no repercussions. A gay man in Africa? A lesbian woman in Europe? A trans person in America? There are so many horrible things that can happen, execution, corrective rape, genital mutilation. Not to say these don't happen to straight or cis people. Just so much more to queer minorities that safe places are necessary. And then a heteronormative person comes in and wants their opinion to lead the discussion and drown out the minority voice. I'm not saying anyone here has done that, but the GSA at my school had to ban a straight cis guy from coming because he would suggest that coming out wasn't that difficult, or that lesbians just hadn't met the right guy yet, or that trans people weren't real because gender wasn't real.

[Socratov]

last post before bedtime

trigger warnings yo.

Spoiler

Show

It's important that people realize GSRMs are so marginalized in almost every society that safe spaces for them are necessary. Straight people and cis people have privilege, whether they like it or not. They can say anything about being straight or cis anywhere they want, with no repercussions. A gay man in Africa? A lesbian woman in Europe? A trans person in America? There are so many horrible things that can happen, execution, corrective rape, genital mutilation. Not to say these don't happen to straight or cis people. Just so much more to queer minorities that safe places are necessary. And then a heteronormative person comes in and wants their opinion to lead the discussion and drown out the minority voice. I'm not saying anyone here has done that, but the GSA at my school had to ban a straight cis guy from coming because he would suggest that coming out wasn't that difficult, or that lesbians just hadn't met the right guy yet, or that trans people weren't real because gender wasn't real.

answer(spoilered for same reason)

Spoiler

Show

I do realize that, however, privilige (as I said earlier) is not something 1) one can control, 2)not saying all (I mean, it's a difference in chance of things happening, not a discrete measure.

I see how the example you mention does turn things sour. I also want to illustrate that while some cis-white-male-etc. people are bad eggs (one thing i am definately not denieing, sorry if I led you to believe this), so are some of the LGBT people who basically drive away peopel who are trying to be helpful by supporting the cause, individual people and (if possible) extending their privileges for the LGBT cause (like Matt here). Denieing those people to try and help basically antagonizes them to the (local) LGBT cause, which is (if I'm right) detrimental to what LGBT people are trying to achieve.

I may come across a bit strong on this issue since this effect is the very thing holding LGBT people back in achieving their goals (and it is the very thing LGBT peopel in general are trying to obliterate).

tl;dr - Do unto others as you would have them unto you. Plain and simple.

[Astrella]

I don't think it's a major problem within the LGBT+ community at all and I agree with MetDitto, I'm completely open to allies, but it's important to understand when you are in a queer space that queer people can't safely talk about their sexuality / gender and other issues everywhere, and to respect those spaces.

Edit; you know what's holding us back? Bigots. No-one else.

[MetDitto]

Spoiler

Show

I do realize that, however, privilige (as I said earlier) is not something 1) one can control, 2)not saying all (I mean, it's a difference in chance of things happening, not a discrete measure.

Spoiler

Show

It doesn't matter if you can control it or not. It's there, the least you can do is acknowledge that and understand what that means (including that one might need to not be in a place to make it safe for other people).
And it's not just a minor difference in chance of something happening. The general population has somewhere between a 5% and 10% suicidal ideation rate. Transgender populations? 65% ideation, 40% attempted. Privilege means something significant, and suggesting that it doesn't is the definition of privilege.

Spoiler

Show

I see how the example you mention does turn things sour. I also want to illustrate that while some cis-white-male-etc. people are bad eggs (one thing i am definately not denieing, sorry if I led you to believe this), so are some of the LGBT people who basically drive away peopel who are trying to be helpful by supporting the cause, individual people and (if possible) extending their privileges for the LGBT cause (like Matt here). Denieing those people to try and help basically antagonizes them to the (local) LGBT cause, which is (if I'm right) detrimental to what LGBT people are trying to achieve.

Spoiler

Show

It's not driving away people, it's asking them to respect a safe space. And not respecting that is why there needs to be a safe place in the first place. The rest of society caters to cisnormative/heteronormative people. Straight and cis allies that understand that won't stop helping the cause because of this, and if they do, they weren't really allies to begin with.

Spoiler

Show

I may come across a bit strong on this issue since this effect is the very thing holding LGBT people back in achieving their goals (and it is the very thing LGBT peopel in general are trying to obliterate).

tl;dr - Do unto others as you would have them unto you. Plain and simple.

Spoiler

Show

This is literally the opposite of the problem. I think it's the old white cis guys that don't pass laws respecting the identities of thousands of peoples that are the problem, and the people electing them. Namely, the bigots.

[Jormengand]

-Stuff-

Spoiler

Show

Obviously, LGBTetc people need safe spaces, but that doesn't mean that straight people can't help them. If we're pushing them away, what are we proving?

[KenderWizard]

Thanks for your answers so far! The fact I might be more involved in these things than the people close to me who are directly concerned.
Also the whole "safe space" thing. We've seen discussions in this very series of thread on the subject, and sometimes I do wonder how much space I should put between myself and the concerned parties, especially in places that are not specifically labelled as "safe". Should have mentioned in the original post, but that's also part of why I'm thinking about it now.

Thanks for your link, Kender! I'm glad the scary stories weren't as horrible as I'd feared.

Yeah, I got really anxious reading it, I was really hoping nothing really awful happened to her!

I'm not precisely sure about your concern about safe spaces, but a space isn't safe by nature of excluding certain groups of people, it's safe by nature of everyone being good to one another and respectful.

[Eldest]

Spoiler

Show

It doesn't matter if you can control it or not. It's there, the least you can do is acknowledge that and understand what that means (including that one might need to not be in a place to make it safe for other people).
And it's not just a minor difference in chance of something happening. The general population has somewhere between a 5% and 10% suicidal ideation rate. Transgender populations? 65% ideation, 40% attempted. Privilege means something significant, and suggesting that it doesn't is the definition of privilege.

Depressing correction and my own thoughts

Spoiler

Show

40% attempted and survived, unknown sucessful suicides. Study by a pro-LGBTA group so possible bias in reporting numbers, but should be somewhat reliable.

I do agree with the idea that safe places should exist. My definition, however, differs. Safe places should make nobody uncomfortable. That does not mean people like Mathew can't join and help others, in spite of not needing the safe spot himself. Safe places are entire able to kick out the bigots and people who make others uncomfortable. This shouldn't be abused, though.

[KenderWizard]

So, I shared my little essay on nail polish and gender policing (slightly adapted), on The Everyday Sexism Project facebook page. It's a feminist group that shares examples of sexism and discusses topics related to intersectional feminism. And the responses are so lovely I wanted to share them with ye, especially Lena.

My adapted post:

Spoiler

Show

A friend of mine is a young woman who went to work wearing nail polish the other day. Unfortunately for her, she's a transwoman, and she still has to present as a boy at work for the moment. A customer took the time to complain about the "boy wearing nail polish" and she got in trouble. It's a horrible thing to happen and it's a blatant example of gender policing. Gender policing is always wrong, almost always misogynist, seemingly always transphobic, but not restricted to trans-identifying people.

It's very obvious from a very young age that boys and girls, men and women, are supposed to be Different, and there are behaviours, attitudes and expressions that are gendered. These are, if not entirely culturally constructed, then certainly culturally enforced. There is little attention paid to the fact that all behaviours and expressions are part of overlapping distributions of popularity (ie, it's not "Women wear nail polish", it's "Lots of women wear nail polish and very few men do").

So take the nail polish. Expressing anything on your nails, taking care of your nails, showing off your nails; these are all gendered behaviours and expressions. It's a girly thing to do, it's something women do. It can be something women are _expected_ to do. If I was to go to some places with my short, unpainted nails, people would actually comment on that. Dipwits, but still. I would be ignoring a feminine behaviour that I _should_ be engaging in. Lucky for me, I've got a feminine voice and a cute little round face, I'm busty and curvy, and my body hair is so fair and fine as to be invisible. I'll be policed, but I'll be allowed get away with it, because I'm generally conforming. (Sexism.)

If a man, call him Matthew, showed up with his nails neatly groomed and painted, I'm sure all hell would break loose, at least in the dipwits' minds. Immediately, it would be assumed he was gay, no question. There is no reason, in this system, for a man to take on female-gendered behaviour, because women are classed as less-than. Being gay is to engage in a womanly behaviour (attraction to men), and therefore, it's assumed you've crossed the Gender Police Rubicon and could, at any moment, do other wildly inappropriate gendered things. (Sexism and homophobia.)

But what actually happened is that my friend, call her Alanna, showed up with painted nails. Alanna has been told that to be a woman, she needs to conform to these standards, and starting from a less privileged position than me, she's expected to work harder, to take more care with her expression. And anyway, she wants to paint her nails, and why not, it's fun. But to do so in a male-assigned body is to invite scorn. This is where gender policing becomes more vicious, because Alanna has been put in a vulnerable position. Being cisgendered is inarguably the best defense against gender policing. Trans people are punished for conforming, punished for not conforming, punished for complaining that they can't win. Because some people apparently really care about what other people near them might be doing and how that might, I dunno, slightly impinge on their cossetted little world view. (Transphobia.)

It's not to say gender policing doesn't harm cisgendered people, it absolutely does. Children especially are monitored, and people in the public eye. "That's for girls.", "That's a boy's toy.", "Don't cry like a girl!", "Man up.", "Pink isn't for little boys.", "You can't play with mammy's lipstick, it's only for girls.".

Nail polish isn't inherently female. It's not dangerously female. It's not politically female, or it shouldn't be. It's coded as feminine in our culture, and that's fine. But it's not Just For Girls And Only Girls And Only Female-Assigned-At-Birth Girls Or Else. And it's not true that seeing it on a male-assigned-bodied person is some travesty against nature. It's just unusual.

Dress codes and the like are fine, since this happened at a workplace. I'm all for it. Same uniform, good neat image. No long hair in the food, excellent. Clean hands and short nails, sounds good. But as soon as it gets into "X for women and Y for men", it becomes bull****. It gets to be "men can't do any feminine things, and women are mandated to do feminine things". That hits men hard, women harder and trans people hardest, like so many gender inequalities. It's official gender policing, and it's damn hard to fight against. A lot of people just don't see the problem with this stuff, which frankly baffles me, but there you go.

It's not right. I hope the next time Alanna wears nail polish, people compliment the colour if they like it and otherwise hold their poisoned tongues. For the rest of us, all we can do is keep breaking down those barriers, don't police each other's gender, and raise any kids we have or care for without teaching them to police gender either.

And here are the responses:

Spoiler

Show

LB Administrative note: This is lovely and so I really wanted to post it but want to say right now - we will NOT tolerate ANY comments/questions/debate on this thread about trans identity - trans women are women and this group will not allow that to be called into question so this is a warning up front that anybody posting such comments will be banned immediately.
Kendernote: This is probably because of two people who made trans-erasing comments a week or so ago and started a big argument. Anyone can join the group and the administrators are really good but sometimes it happens that none of them are online.

N So sorry to hear your friend had that trouble - the customer clearly has no life, and her boss needs some remedial schooling.

BC Can I say that I LOVE the moderation of this group. Thank you for taking such a strong line on transphobia, homophobia and classism. It makes me feel much safer in this space.

LM Sad to hear this. I've done my boyfriends nails on occasion because he likes them neat and slightly shiny! And he works in retail, told me it helps him sell. And I agree with you on uniform policing being different based on gender. Enrages me.

O That's awful your friend experienced that :( I completely agree with you about the gender policing, it's ridiculous that men can't show care or attention to themselves and engage in things like nail painting etc, because it's seen as for females only, such a load of bull****!! As Natalie said the customer clearly has no life! and as such they have to fill their empty life by trying to get someone into trouble for something which they should be allowed to do no matter what their gender!!

BH It's sad to hear this. I work in an office with a trans woman and a trans man and I've never seen them treated with anything but respect. There's also a guy who works in a different department who wears a skirt and heels along with his shirt and tie, because he finds it comfortable. I feel so privileged to work in such an open and accepting place so it's a shame to hear stories like this.

Kender Thank you for taking a no-nonsense line, Laura. And thank you to everyone for the comments. I'll share them with my friend, she'll love to hear them!

Edit: Update:
LW I've nothing terribly useful to add alas but it's really awful for your friend. :( Posts like this are a great reminder for the cis gendered among us a) of our privilege and b) some of what we can do to undermine and stand against gender policing. Thanks for posting and hugs to your friend. x

Edit: Update 2
É This is a very well written argument. I'm sorry your friend has to endure this horrendous discrimination. Today, my four year old boy asked to have his toe nails painted "like mummy". I happily obliged.

F If wearing nails polish makes her happy, that's all that matters. Happy people make the world a happy place. I'm so sorry to hear such discrimination. Hugs to you both.

S That was really well written, I really appreciate you posting it.

LW Me too É, mine had red nails (to the knuckles) for a while when he did it himself...

And here's the link, if anyone's in The Everyday Sexism Project group on facebook, or wants to be!

[Mynxae]

From old thread:

Yep, Mynxae was my first boyfriend. We broke it off though due to distance issues.

Unfortunately, yes. And we don't talk as much as we used to, not nearly as much. Heck, I'm lucky to have a conversation with Chessy once a week these days.

[Eirala]

Small rant again

Spoiler

Show

Had a discussion again today with my mum (as always now when i bring it to her attention that she adressed me wrong), and there were many questionable things she said but the "best" one was: "You need to go to a psychologist so that you don't mind being called your birthname any more." Because if you're too lazy to correct your own behaviour, just change the other person instead The essence of transphobia, if you think about it.
Also she does not see the need to apologize or even just correct herself after the adressed me wrong.