Episode IX - The Rise of Skywalker

[Blackhawk748]

By all means, let's make sure our futuristic fantasy movie series based on cinematic visual storytelling properly holds up to realism.

The old "Its Fantasy!" Argument. I want things to have some level of internal consistency. Having an interceptor, that flies at incredibly high speeds, decide to skim the ground for god knows what reason and then have her jump over and land behind what is clearly some sort of jet propulsion is just moronic. Every part of that scene is stupid.

Like I said, swap that thing with an F16 and tell me how well it holds up. It doesn't, so don't try to recreate a scene that used a prop plane.

I'm only speculating here, but I'll spoiler it just in case I happen to be right:

Spoiler

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My guess is that Kylo is piloting it. They aren't fighting, he's training her.

Spoiler: Reaction

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No. No. NO! A thousand times no! And a thousand nos again! Kylo is gone. He's a horrible human being that is beyond redemption. He killed his dad and was trying to kill his mother. He's a manipulative abusive monster. I don't care that his backstory is sad (and forced as hell) I don't care that he wants to be King Edglord I. No. Let Ray kill him. Preferably by decapitation.

[Rodin]

*takes a look at thread*

Well, I certainly don't want to be taking part of a discussion in THAT environment of hate and vitriol.

I'll just say that I'm hyped to see the conclusion of the sequel trilogy, if not at the same level of hype I hold for Endgame.

I'll be back in 8 months, when I can be told why I'm objectively wrong for liking these movies that supposedly trampled my childhood.

[Lethologica]

This whole "a thousand generations live in you now" bit bugs me. Rey doesn't have to be the Avatar.

[Fyraltari]

Maybe Sidious made a Sith holocron?

Why isn't the tie interceptor firing? Is the pilot thinking "instead of my 4 rapid fire blasters, I am going to run into Rey at high speed." If he did hit her, he wouldn't be able to see out the windshield because of all the guts and blood.

Because it was sabotaged, because Kylo is trying to take her in alive, because this some weird kind of reflex training, because this is a dream, because, because, because, because. can't we wait until the actual freaking mowine before nitpicking its logic?

-Does the cackling at the end mean that Palpatine survived the fall? Because Dark Maul survived a fall from a great height. So did Luke Skywalker. And Anakin Skywalker. Hmmm..... Does this mean Mace Windu could still be alive? Maybe he is Rey's father.

We've seen Palpatine explode (also he'd be well over 110 by the time of that movie). If he survivd there's magic at play. Might just be flashback though
.

*takes a look at thread*

Well, I certainly don't want to be taking part of a discussion in THAT environment of hate and vitriol.

I'll just say that I'm hyped to see the conclusion of the sequel trilogy, if not at the same level of hype I hold for Endgame.

I'll be back in 8 months, when I can be told why I'm objectively wrong for liking these movies that supposedly trampled my childhood.

Yeah that's basically any Star Wars discussion these days. See you in eight months.

This whole "a thousand generations live in you now" bit bugs me. Rey doesn't have to be the Avatar.

You're reading literally a pretty straigthforward metonymy. The legacy of a thousand generations lives within her

[jayem]

Those would work sure, if 'Skywalker' was being used in the singular here, but it's pretty obviously not being used that way. Skywalker, as an individual in the context of Star Wars film means Luke Skywalker - not Anakin, not any of Luke's relatives from the EU, not Leia, just Luke. And Luke's dead. Is he going to rise from the grave? I suppose the title works if either Rey or Kylo are going to become 'Skywalker' to be remembered by the title for a thousand years or something, but that's terrible for a whole bunch of other reasons.

If he were (or they wanted speculation of that) this is the week for such a trailer.

I don't see that happening straight (It's not the Matrix or LotR), but something more significant and personal than Obi-Wan.
If I were filling in the movie from that, Palps would exist in spirit as a power but not really a person (you don't see him and it's more evil). Luke would 'rise' on a number of levels (as a symbol for the republic, as a spirit-guide, into the force, in Rey's thoughts, as a dynasty, perhaps even as an El-cid moment) with it being slightly ambiguous as to what was meant.

[napoleon_in_rag]

I'm going to wait until the actual movie - we've seen trailers before that left out visual effects for some reason. Maybe when it comes out the fighter will charge her weapons blazing.

True. It's not like there was another Star Wars movie trailer with a female protagonist facing off against a tie fighter that turned out not to be in the movie.

[Wraith]

We've seen Palpatine explode (also he'd be well over 110 by the time of that movie). If he survivd there's magic at play. Might just be flashback though

In the Expanded Universe, Palpatine/Sidious was notorious for having cloned himself a bunch of times and having his "force ghost" transferring to a new body each time in order to live an unnaturally long life.

I'm kind of hoping that's where they are going with this; that Snoke was an old, decrepit clone of Sidious and now he's back in another new body to take revenge on Luke Skywalker's last two students. That would tie the story together quite nicely, as well as averting one of the big criticisms that Snoke was just "some guy" who came out of nowhere.

[Daimbert]

The things that struck me about the trailer:

1)It's clearly retconning TLJ. Luke saying that they prepared her the best they could with thousands of years of Jedi lore is both pretty much false -- he didn't train her much at all and the best she has are those books -- AND contradicts Yoda's comment that they weren't useful to her anyway. Yes, there are ways to explain that away, but it clearly moves away from the theme. This holds for a number of things as well, including giving Luke a prominent voiceover in the trailer and even the title that hints at Rey being a Skywalker or at least something new coming out of that.

2) I don't think they've learned that outside of some specific groups of fans Rey's not that interesting a character. The focus on her and how awesome she is is not selling the movie to me.

3) I have little faith in them using Palpatine properly, but him being a corrupting Force Ghost on the order of Exar Kun could work.

4) Without seriously retconning TLJ, it will be ridiculous if this is the end of the saga because the First Order is too powerful and the Resistance too weak for one movie to settle that even to the level of Return of the Jedi, and even changing the leader won't realistically -- even in Star Wars -- reform it that quickly. There are options, but all of them are ridiculous (the Remnant, for example).

This really does seem to be shifting the tone away from TLJ back to something closer to the rest of the movies, but I didn't think TFA did that well and have no confidence that this movie can pull it off, especially given the trailer.

[Fyraltari]

The things that struck me about the trailer:

1)It's clearly retconning TLJ. Luke saying that they prepared her the best they could with thousands of years of Jedi lore is both pretty much false -- he didn't train her much at all and the best she has are those books -- AND contradicts Yoda's comment that they weren't useful to her anyway. Yes, there are ways to explain that away, but it clearly moves away from the theme.

Luke doesn't say he passed on thousand years of Jedi Lore and Yoda never said they weren't useful in any way, he said the very opposite.

This holds for a number of things as well, including giving Luke a prominent voiceover in the trailer and even the title that hints at Rey being a Skywalker or at least something new coming out of that.

Starting with her breathing over a black screen is a direct call-back to the teasers of TLJ so I doubt that.

2) I don't think they've learned that outside of some specific groups of fans Rey's not that interesting a character. The focus on her and how awesome she is is not selling the movie to me.

What, you expect the movie not to focus on the protagonist?

3) I have little faith in them using Palpatine properly, but him being a corrupting Force Ghost on the order of Exar Kun could work.

Agreed.

4) Without seriously retconning TLJ, it will be ridiculous if this is the end of the saga because the First Order is too powerful and the Resistance too weak for one movie to settle that even to the level of Return of the Jedi, and even changing the leader won't realistically -- even in Star Wars -- reform it that quickly. There are options, but all of them are ridiculous (the Remnant, for example).

The FO lost the majority of their fleet as well as their two humonguous ships and two of their leaders with the supporting two despising each other. They left TLJ in terrible shape. Meanwhile the Allinace went from thirty fighters to a fully-fledged fleet in-between ANH and TSB.

[The Jack]

It's a struggle to be positive.

I didn't like JJ's directing in the first place
I don't think he can recover well from TLJ
Nothing contradicts this.

[Peelee]

The FO lost the majority of their fleet

When? Even in the OT the Empire never lost a majority of their fleet, is the FO literally only a dozen ships strong at full power?

[Fyraltari]

When? Even in the OT the Empire never lost a majority of their fleet, is the FO literally only a dozen ships strong at full power?

The FO was never the empire. Their whole philosophy is to make even bigger ships/vehicle because they can’t afford the near-limitless armadas of the Empire so, yeah, unless somebody can pull a quote that contradicts it (I’m not going to pretend I have read much, let alone all of the EU material around the Sequel Era) I feel confident in stating they lost their main fleet.

[Peelee]

The FO was never the empire. Their whole philosophy is to make even bigger ships/vehicle because they can’t afford the near-limitless armadas of the Empire so, yeah, unless somebody can pull a quote that contradicts it (I’m not going to pretend I have read much, let alone all of the EU material around the Sequel Era) I feel confident in stating they lost their main fleet.

TFA. Starkiller Base's firing lens alone is nearly as big as the entire Death Star. They clearly COULD afford the near-limitless armada. See also: The Last Jedi, Canto Bight, with the ultra-wealthy. "There's only one business in the galaxy that gets you this rich." Heavily implying that the FO had the money to give them.

[Fyraltari]

TFA. Starkiller Base's firing lens alone is nearly as big as the entire Death Star. They clearly COULD afford the near-limitless armada. See also: The Last Jedi, Canto Bight, with the ultra-wealthy. "There's only one business in the galaxy that gets you this rich." Heavily implying that the FO had the money to give them.

We’ve already had the this discussion, peelee, when you are an interstellar power with casual FTL travel money and resources are no object (the asteroid belt of the real solar system alone is enough material to build a Death Star and then some). What they lack is the sheer manpower of the Empire. A single star destroyer is several tens of thousands of crewmember who require training. The FO is located in the Fringes where there is little to no population compare to the Core Worlds where the Empire has its seat of power.

[Peelee]

We’ve already had the this discussion, peelee, when you are an interstellar power with casual FTL travel money and resources are no object (the asteroid belt of the real solar system alone is enough material to build a Death Star and then some). What they lack is the sheer manpower of the Empire. A single star destroyer is several tens of thousands of crewmember who require training. The FO is located in the Fringes where there is little to no population compare to the Core Worlds where the Empire has its seat of power.

And they solve this problem in the movies by stating child soldiers. You know I have a massive library of the old EU books, and am building my library on new EU, but I'm still an ardent supporter of the movies bearing the onus of explaining themselves adequately. As far as the movies are concerned, there is no reason for them to not have a larger fleet (if not Empire-large, then at least significantly larger than the scant few ships we've seen). TLJ opening crawl openly stares they now reign over the galaxy - you need ships for that, manpower, you can't just say "well your systems are ours now, just trust us on this, you'll proudly never see us though."

[Frozen_Feet]

Re: "Thousand generations live in you"

I talked about this after TLJ came out and people were calling Yoda a horrible person for not caring about burning books:

Ghosts of Jedi Masters from countless generations live as one with the Force. None of the information would've been lost with those books, as you could gather from Luke himself having a casual chat with a long-dead master.

It's been my theory for a time now that Rey is a conduit of the Force and is being instructed by knowledge of all those Force ghosts. That's why, in TLJ, she showcases sudden knowledge of several lightsaber styles.

Of course, this leaves the door open for Sith ghosts influencing Rey... because as also showcased in TLJ, she is quick to give in to the dark side if she thinks it will give her the answers she wants. So... "no-one is truly gone" indeed.

[Fyraltari]

And they solve this problem in the movies by stating child soldiers. You know I have a massive library of the old EU books, and am building my library on new EU, but I'm still an ardent supporter of the movies bearing the o us of exolai ING themselves adequately. As far as the movies are concerned, there is no reason for them to not have a larger fleet (if not Empire-large, then at least significantly larger than the scant few ships we've seen). TLJ opening crawl openly stares they now reign over the galaxy - you need ships for that, manpower, you can't just say "well your systems are ours now, just trust us on this, you'll proudly never see us though."

Yeah, and they don't have so many of those child soldiers either, they're even giving them second chances when tey screw up. I mean planets are big and a galaxy is a lot of planets. A dozen Star destroyer isn't "a scant few ships" there's also a huge number of smaller ships with them (how many TIE again?) besides all those who died on Starkiller and the Supremacy.

And "the first order reigns supreme" doesn't necessarly mean they've physically conquered the entire galaxy (in the couple hours between TFA and TLJ, that would be quite a feat) it very well can mean that they're the biggest superpower left.

[Peelee]

Yeah, and they don't have so many of those child soldiers either

Source?

And "the first order reigns supreme" doesn't necessarly mean they've physically conquered the entire galaxy (in the couple hours between TFA and TLJ, that would be quite a feat) it very well can mean that they're the biggest superpower left.

If your superpower has only a dozen ships, it shouldn't be hard for a few of the richer planets to band together and cobble up something that could take them on, barring some sort of super tech the FO has. I with count hyperspace tracking as a game changer as far as that goes.

So which is it? Are they a superpower, or do they have so few ships you could count them on both hands?

[Blackhawk748]

We’ve already had the this discussion, peelee, when you are an interstellar power with casual FTL travel money and resources are no object (the asteroid belt of the real solar system alone is enough material to build a Death Star and then some). What they lack is the sheer manpower of the Empire. A single star destroyer is several tens of thousands of crewmember who require training. The FO is located in the Fringes where there is little to no population compare to the Core Worlds where the Empire has its seat of power.

The Resurgent Class Star Destroyer takes about 74k crew to man, which is double that of an Imperial II Star Destroyer. Except a Resurgent has something like triple (or more) the firepower and nearly double the Fighter Support, they can manage to build these things as well as the Supremacy (which is a giant floating Factory ship, not a Warship)in the middle of flipping nowhere so ya, I don't think that TLJ was that much of a setback for them materialistically. Morale wise? Sure, maybe. But actually loses? No.

It's not even a Pyrric victory for them. They blasted apart the one thing that was fighting them, the Resistance. The New Republic was a joke for not having a fleet, not even one to un-mothball as far as I'm aware, so they're no threat, and a single Resurgent can roll over any system that isn't called Kuat Drive Yards or in Hutt Space.

Also, personnel are never stated to be their limiting factory. It's constantly stated that resources are their problem, and guess what? They can recycle those 20 destroyed/crippled Resurgent's from TLJ into at least 10 functional ships, probabl more. Seriously, they walked out of TLJ smelling like roses.

[Sapphire Guard]

I hear Resistance establishes the FO have dozens of fleets, but I haven't seen it so can't confirm.

[Fyraltari]

Source?

They don't waste them like the Empire did. Seeing as they are even more insane than the empire, I guess they don't feel they have a choice.

If your superpower has only a dozen ships, it shouldn't be hard for a few of the richer planets to band together and cobble up something that could take them on, barring some sort of super tech the FO has. I with count hyperspace tracking as a game changer as far as that goes.

So which is it? Are they a superpower, or do they have so few ships you could count them on both hands?

Everybody else disarmed, remember? I would expect the taking them on to be what this movie is about.

The Resurgent Class Star Destroyer takes about 74k crew to man, which is double that of an Imperial II Star Destroyer. Except a Resurgent has something like triple (or more) the firepower and nearly double the Fighter Support, they can manage to build these things as well as the Supremacy (which is a giant floating Factory ship, not a Warship)in the middle of flipping nowhere so ya, I don't think that TLJ was that much of a setback for them materialistically. Morale wise? Sure, maybe. But actually loses? No.

It's not even a Pyrric victory for them. They blasted apart the one thing that was fighting them, the Resistance. The New Republic was a joke for not having a fleet, not even one to un-mothball as far as I'm aware, so they're no threat, and a single Resurgent can roll over any system that isn't called Kuat Drive Yards or in Hutt Space.

Also, personnel are never stated to be their limiting factory. It's constantly stated that resources are their problem, and guess what? They can recycle those 20 destroyed/crippled Resurgent's from TLJ into at least 10 functional ships, probabl more. Seriously, they walked out of TLJ smelling like roses.

You sure they don't mean resources as in people (because that's definitely a use I have seen)? Because else, well that doesn't make sense with how space work (hardly a new thing for star wars) or with what's seen.

Anyway, regardless of wether that was their sole or main fleet, lossing both their superships and an entire fleet is still a big loss. And the Resistanc estill has allies (they were trying to contact them, remember?) even though they declined to show up (I mean the FO had just blown a planet from the other side of the galaxy, that's a wise response), so with the Resistance for them to band around (the one thing Snoke was afraid of (putting out the flame of hope, etc) I wouldn't yell plot hole if the s;pace battles in the film are even match (which they probably won't be because dramatic tension and all).

[Iruka]

I have nothing else to contribute to this thread.

[napoleon_in_rag]

I mean, Lando.

I am probably breaking with much of the fandom but I think the one of the Disney's mistakes with both TFA and TLJ is including too many characters from the original trilogy. It's one thing to include a character because its necessary for a major plot point (Han Solo) but its another to shoe horn in a character just for fan service (C3PO). I feel like, after Han's death, they didn't know what to do with Chewy other than munch on porgs and stand in the background. R2D2's role as a plucky droid has been taken by BB8 and now all he does is occasionally play a holo when necessary. C3PO is just there.

The best thing they could do with Lando is have him show up and fly off into the sunset with the Millenium Falcon, Chewie, C3PO, and R2D2.

I feel the new trilogy should be about the new characters - Finn, Rey, Poe, and Kylo. Too many of the old characters just clutter up the screen.

[Peelee]

They don't waste them like the Empire did.

Thats a mighty low bar to pass. It doesn't say to me what it says to you.

Everybody else disarmed, remember? I would expect the taking them on to be what this movie is about.

No. I remember the federal government disarming, which means the systems themselves need to arm for whatever various reasons. No word on the galaxy universally disarming.

[Blackhawk748]

I hear Resistance establishes the FO have dozens of fleets, but I haven't seen it so can't confirm.

The wiki simply states this:

At its height, the First Order Navy had constructed hundreds of capital ships.

So over 300, because you typically won't describe less than that as hundreds, meaning that, at worst, the battle in TLJ had them lose less than 10% of the overall naval strength. Yes the crippling of the Supremacy sucks.

Oh, the also apparently have Star Dreadnaughts, y'know, Super Star Destroyers? Ya, so thats a thing.

You sure they don't mean resources as in people (because that's definitely a use I have seen)? Because else, well that doesn't make sense with how space work (hardly a new thing for star wars) or with what's seen.

Anyway, regardless of wether that was their sole or main fleet, lossing both their superships and an entire fleet is still a big loss. And the Resistanc estill has allies (they were trying to contact them, remember?) even though they declined to show up (I mean the FO had just blown a planet from the other side of the galaxy, that's a wise response), so with the Resistance for them to band around (the one thing Snoke was afraid of (putting out the flame of hope, etc) I wouldn't yell plot hole if the s;pace battles in the film are even match (which they probably won't be because dramatic tension and all).

Here's the quote:

Taking inspiration from the Imperial-class Star Destroyers of the Old Empire, but lacking the resources to construct huge numbers of these capital ships, First Order designs would consciously emulate the psychological factor of the previous Imperial Era ships.

That quote doesn't sound like a manpower shortage, that sounds like an actual physical resource shortage. ALso, I was wrong, the Resurgence Class has nearly SEVEN TIMES the firepower of a single Imperial II Class Star Destroyer as it has (and this is canon) 1500 Turbolaser and Ion Cannons, while the Imperial II is listed as having 76+ Turbo Laser Batteries, 50 Heavy Turbolaser Cannons and 20 Heavy Ion Cannons. Even if we consider the battery to consist of four guns each, that only brings the standard Imperial II to 376 guns, which still puts the Resurgent at five times the massed firepower.

Thats more Firepower than a Golan III Defense Platform, which is a fixed position defensive space Station. Resurgent's have just shy of 1/3 the firepower of an Executor Class Super Star Destroyer at 1/6 the size. And all of this is without really losing out on speed, maneuverability, or defensive capability as they have a boatload of Point Defense Turrets.

God I hate those ships, their design is so lazy.

[jayem]

The Resurgent Class Star Destroyer takes about 74k crew to man, which ...

Means basically North Korea could crew 10, 100 if they called up their reserves.
Or alternatively that the battles effect on the first order (assuming it was the same size as France) would be comparable to WW1 (if you exclude the effect of the wounded survivors).

Also, personnel are never stated to be their limiting factory.

Just as well.

[J-H]

My optimism is gone. If the reviews are super good I might Redbox it...but that's what we did with TLJ and it was bad. Pulling the Emperor out NOW is not an encouraging sign. Randomly making Daisy or someone else a Skywalker is dumb. Maybe it's Ben Solo (Kylo Ren) proclaiming himself the Skywalker Emperor? That wouldn't make sense for a trilogy-ender, though.

Meh.

[Blackhawk748]

Means basically North Korea could crew 10, 100 if they called up their reserves.
Or alternatively that the battles effect on the first order (assuming it was the same size as France) would be comparable to WW1 (if you exclude the effect of the wounded survivors).

Its an Interstellar power, they are way bigger than France by sheer necessity. 74k is nothing to a power that measures their holding in planets.

snip

Thank you for that.

[napoleon_in_rag]

Because it's visually evocative of the crop duster scene in North by Northwest and aside from a couple of bullet ricochets in one moment it was trying to run its target down.

I think this is a glimpse into the mind of J. J. Abrams.

I can imagine him in film school, sitting on a dirty couch, smoking something, and watching North by Northwest. "Dude, you know what would make this movie better? What if Cary Grant jumped OVER the biplane? That would be sooooo cool! Why didn't Hitchcock do that?"

As I recall from the movie, if the pilot wasn't trying to kill Cary Grant with the propeller, he probably wouldn't have hit the truck and died.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Excuse me, that title is wrong. I believe it should be "LANDO'S BACK BABY!"

It's kind of funny, we're at a point where how hyped people (including me) are for a characters is based not on how much they were featured in the original trilogy, but more on how little they were featured in anything else Star Wars we've seen.