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Thread: "Don't Screw This Up."
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2021-10-30, 01:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Don't Screw This Up."
The longer I think about it, the less the "rogue agent" approach seems like a likely play. Hard to imagine the end goal there: "whoops, Other Gods, that rebel goblin went and cast The Ritual, and now I have control of the Snarl's portal. Golly, how embarrassing! Well, now that I have it..." You can't really pass off an active hostage scenario as a serendipitous accident.
I could be wrong, but it feels like you're setting up a "TDO's silence is no worse than Thor's" argument here, which is confusing to me. I'm not saying TDO's lack of response to Redcloak is bad or shows flawed judgment, and I'm not comparing his behavior to other gods', except for the purpose of context.
I'm saying I find TDO's lack of response STRANGE, especially given that he talked to Jirix and even gave a message for Redcloak and called him his "true prophet." If he agrees with what RC's doing, why doesn't he talk directly? We've seen Thor and Hel talk directly to their clerics.
This isn't criticism. It's speculation.Last edited by Ionathus; 2021-10-30 at 01:52 PM.
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2021-10-30, 02:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Don't Screw This Up."
My point is that it's not strange or suspicious at all, unless Thor's behaviour counts as strange and suspicious as well, because talking to one's clerics, important as they may be, is the exception rather than the norm. Jirix and Durkon are not good examples, because both of them only got to talk with their respective gods after they died, which Redcloak never did.
I'm also trying to point out that Big Purple does talk to his clerics, if not directly, through the Mantle. And ifSpoiler: SoDis to be believed, he even updates the info the Mantle imparts with its wearer whenever he finds out something important, since Redcloak tells Xykon it was created before the Gates were.Last edited by Metastachydium; 2021-10-30 at 02:02 PM.
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2021-10-30, 02:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-10-30, 02:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Don't Screw This Up."
The main problem with the "plausible deniability" scenario is that the deniability is not at all plausible. Without their spells, clerics are basically warriors with a worse BAB, and the spells come from the cleric's god, so it's not like he couldn't have stopped the "rogue agent" any time he saw fit.
Also, the Dark One is not on speaking terms with the other gods and as far as he knows, he has nothing to lose. Why on earth would he put effort into engineering a scenario where he can "save face"?Last edited by Metastachydium; 2021-10-30 at 02:39 PM.
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2021-10-30, 02:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-10-30, 03:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Don't Screw This Up."
You're probably looking for this.
Originally Posted by @RichBurlewFeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2021-10-30, 03:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Don't Screw This Up."
Thanks for the quote. But I was wondering more about the way Durkon gave his regular updates.
I don't think a spell was specified in comic and I somehow thought it was a side effect of praying for new spells. Durkon was talking to Thor in the beginning, but this was a joke only.Spoiler: I'm a seer
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2021-10-30, 05:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Don't Screw This Up."
Regarding Durkon's importance. Up until he found out about the gates during the Azure City arc he was just another random cleric. We have no idea how often he's spoken to his high priest in the time thats passed since they became High Priest, (to say nothing of the previous one). Also Durkon notes during the desert arc that he doesn't think asking Thor for help will do any good, (though i think he says he will try, then of course Haley, Elan, and V get kidnapped and the things occupy their attention so he may never have got the chance)
Also the mission Thor gives Durkon took some real explaining time, if he never normally prepares commune more than once Thor doesn't exactly have the time he need to explain it all to him, (not to mention he can't show him the gravestones which Thor seemed to think as really important). So they absolutely could have spoken in between on rare, (doesn't normally answer Durkon after all), occasions. For that matter the fact that Thor can set a "ringtone" for a specific Cleric implies he has a system in place so that he can talk to specific Clerics of import more regularly. That implies he does talk directly to some of his clerics.
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2021-10-30, 05:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Don't Screw This Up."
We have a pretty good idea. He never had any contact to high priestess Rubyrock. He didn't even know she got this position.
Durkons reward in Azure city was a diplomatic mission to the Dwarven land, to ask the former HP to end his exile. He never got the answer of HP Ruby, where she told him his exile was over and only learned this later, after his own death.
So they (Thor and Durkon) absolutely could have spoken in between on rare, (doesn't normally answer Durkon after all), occasions. For that matter the fact that Thor can set a "ringtone" for a specific Cleric implies he has a system in place so that he can talk to specific Clerics of import more regularly. That implies he does talk directly to some of his clerics.
So no, they were not talking before Durkon died.
I also disagree with your conclusion regarding the implications of the ability to set ringtones, but I can't give a definite answer here. It just seems like Thor is known to ignore calls and in order to establish communication, something out of the ordinary has to happen. Maybe the high priest can talk to him from time to time, perhaps in order to let them know a godsmoot is necessary, but there might be another way.Spoiler: I'm a seer
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2021-10-30, 05:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Don't Screw This Up."
It should be noted that before Durkon learned of the Gates, he was already "special": He was the subject of a prophecy by Odin that Thor assumed his dad made for a good reason. It's possible Thor ghosted Durkon to avoid messing up Odin's plan.
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Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2021-10-30, 06:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Don't Screw This Up."
This would imply that Durkon had a special ringtone already. The "don't take this call" tone. Possibly mute.
I think Thor would have told Durkon about this, since Thor seems to take interest in his followers. Saying "I'm sorry I never accepted your calls before, but it could have messed up your destiny. I will listen now" would feel more in line with the way Thor acted around Durkon and Minrah. At least that's my impression. Might be wrong.Spoiler: I'm a seer
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2021-11-01, 09:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Don't Screw This Up."
I still don't think that the situations are close enough to explain the silence. Thor is established as chaotic and not very organized, plus Durkon's quest is only one of many his followers are undertaking, so Thor's got a lot of irons in the fire, so to speak, and has to split his attention. TDO's situation is much more like Hel's -- she has a very specific plan to obtain more power/influence for herself, and it all hinges upon this singular cleric, so she talks to him all the time and gets updates, provides guidance, etc.
We've been shown Hel, Loki, and Thor all interacting with their followers without the necessity of killing & resurrecting a messenger...I feel like there's something extra going on with TDO or else he'd be doing the same thing.
As a side note, in SoD when Redcloak portrayed TDO as an eloquent and diplomatic leader, that could be reinterpreted as Redcloak having rose-colored glasses...but what's interesting is that Jirix portrayed him in the same light and with the same eloquent personality. Either Jirix was lying too, or TDO really is like that - even if he's also a vicious warlord.
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2021-11-01, 09:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Don't Screw This Up."
TDO spoke to RC through Jirix. Divine beings do stuff like that with some frequency. (See also Cumae, Delphi, Dodona (in the Greek Traditions) as places where Oracles are used as a conduit for deities to speak to mortals).
What's going on here? Why hasn't TDO ever talked to his own high priest, even if just to encourage him?
Why was he so quick to reach out to Jirix by comparison?
Given how much attention was paid to it in #1206, I get the feeling we're supposed to think something's not quite right about his dynamic with Redcloak.
I just don't know how to reconcile that with how he called Redcloak his "true prophet" and gave Jirix a message for him.
And to put the cherry on top of this sundae, Thor gave Durkon some special tools (gloves, hammer) to go forth and do great things.
Someone is channeling their inner Sidgi.Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
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2021-11-01, 10:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Don't Screw This Up."
No, Hel's situation is nothing like Big Purple's. We have seen all of Hel's clerics ever during this iteration of the world. Meanwhile, Big Purple is the deity of a very populous species with lots of clerics. He does have other duties, the Plan's just more important (just as saving the world forever should be more important for Thor than soaking his feet).
We've been shown Hel, Loki, and Thor all interacting with their followers without the necessity of killing & resurrecting a messenger...I feel like there's something extra going on with TDO or else he'd be doing the same thing.
As a side note, in SoD when Redcloak portrayed TDO as an eloquent and diplomatic leader, that could be reinterpreted as Redcloak having rose-colored glasses...but what's interesting is that Jirix portrayed him in the same light and with the same eloquent personality. Either Jirix was lying too, or TDO really is like that - even if he's also a vicious warlord.
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2021-11-01, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Don't Screw This Up."
No argument from me. I never said he was.
What do you mean, not quite right? TDO does things his way. Who are you, or I, mere mortals, to say what is the correct way for TDO to interact with his clerics?
Deities speak to their servants in whatever ways they find suitable.Jirix died, TDO was going to see him when he showed up in that afterlife, and IIRC raise dead (the spell) had been granted to RC who brought Jirix back.
My first instinct would be to say "oh, he just likes Jirix more than Redcloak." And maybe that's what's going on, maybe Redcloak is the eldest child who's held to a higher standard and has to do all the dirty work, while the younger child Jirix gets attention and support from Dad. But maybe it's something else. Maybe talking to a dead cleric is easy, because they're stopping by your house while you're home, whereas talking to a living cleric is like a Zoom video call with bad reception -- a lot of hassle for not much payoff.
Either way, I think it's demonstrated that Redcloak wishes he had more direct support/interaction with his deity, and I believe we will see this become important soon.
I don't think we know enough to say "talking to a living cleric is ONLY possible if XYZ." The examples of cleric-to-god interactions in the comic seem to imply there are a number of ways to get in touch. I think it's much more demonstrated that the gods don't LISTEN to those clerics' attempts at communication very often, but I do believe they are possible because we've seen them happen.
Incidentally, how did Loki "trick" Hilgya? She asked to find Durkon and he told her where to go. That she first had to exorcise a vampire from his body doesn't change the fact that she still got to find and confront him and, according to her reaction, get what she personally needed out of it.Last edited by Ionathus; 2021-11-01 at 10:58 AM.
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2021-11-01, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Don't Screw This Up."
I feel like folks are really overthinking this. Gods don't communicate directly with living mortals except in very rare circumstances - usually in the "Cryptic prophecy with incomplete information" style. It's not just the agreement between them to keep the peace that stops them from doing so, it's just their nature.
It's going to be the case with ANY story involving deities - why don't they just solve the problem? Because the story isn't about them, it's about mortal people who are like us overcoming challenges. In Lord of the Rings, it's clear that the Valar want Sauron defeated, so why don't the help more than the occasional bit of luck or prophetic vision? Because that's not the way it works. Durkula was a unique case, otherwise characters have to just stumble around hoping they get it right just like in real life.Some people think that Chaotic Neutral is the alignment of the insane, but the enlightened know that Chaotic Neutral is the only alignment without illusions of sanity.
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2021-11-01, 11:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Don't Screw This Up."
And where did I say this is not the case?
I think it's much more demonstrated that the gods don't LISTEN to those clerics' attempts at communication very often,
but I do believe they are possible because we've seen them happen.
Incidentally, how did Loki "trick" Hilgya? She asked to find Durkon and he told her where to go. That she first had to exorcise a vampire from his body doesn't change the fact that she still got to find and confront him and, according to her reaction, get what she personally needed out of it.
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2021-11-01, 11:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Don't Screw This Up."
Ah, so you've met us
Gods don't communicate directly with living mortals except in very rare circumstances - usually in the "Cryptic prophecy with incomplete information" style. It's not just the agreement between them to keep the peace that stops them from doing so, it's just their nature.
It's going to be the case with ANY story involving deities - why don't they just solve the problem? Because the story isn't about them, it's about mortal people who are like us overcoming challenges. In Lord of the Rings, it's clear that the Valar want Sauron defeated, so why don't the help more than the occasional bit of luck or prophetic vision? Because that's not the way it works. Durkula was a unique case, otherwise characters have to just stumble around hoping they get it right just like in real life.
My point is that breaking this radio silence to give Jirix encouragement he didn't seem to need, and give Redcloak an unhelpful secondhand reminder of the pressure that's on him, feels like it's implying/setting up something out of the ordinary.
Emphasis mine; maybe you weren't talking about it in the broader "physically capable" sense, but that's how I originally read it.
"Trick" might be a strong term. My point is, Big Purple tells his Bearers exactly what it is that they are expected to do. Loki ignored Hilgya right until the point when he became actively interested in killing "Durkon" (i.e. Greg) and then he sicced Hilgya on the Church of Hel without ever mentioing what that involves or who exactly she's sent after.
Both of those versions of the Dark One make sense in context. And I know that gods can behave differently in different circumstances...because regular mortals do that, too. But because Redcloak drew attention to it in #1206, I feel like we're going to find out something about this difference.
Yeah. And I like that.
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2021-11-01, 11:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Don't Screw This Up."
I've been mulling this topic over for a bit. (Slow day at work.) I think there's three main factors to consider here.
1.) Jirix is the only one to have had direct contact with the Dark One in many years.
Nobody else has talked directly to the Dark One in decades, as far as we know. Not Redcloak, and (importantly) not the other gods. It's been reinforced multiple times that the Dark One has been incommunicado for several decades. He asked Jirix to pass a message on to Redcloak, so he's taking an interest in what's happening in the material plane, which makes it even weirder that he won't talk to Redcloak directly. Hel, as a counter-example, was perfectly happy to chat to her minion. So we know that this communications blackout is, on some level, a choice.
Jirix also wasn't dead for very long. Probably less than an hour. In his own telling of the story, the Dark One appeared to him as soon as he appeared in the afterlife. So the Dark One isn't off on god business elsewhere, he's actively monitoring the situation. Plus, he's got a lot riding on this. What else is he doing, advising goblin dirt farmers somewhere?
2.) Jirix's encounter with the Dark One is presented in crayon form.
This meeting, which is the only scrap of information we have about the Dark One that isn't 30 years old, is explicitly framed as a story that Jirix is telling. That doesn't necessarily mean that Jirix is lying, but it opens the door to it not quite having been true. It's not third-person-omniscient but first-person-limited, and that's probably important.
In my opinion, the first two points hint that there's something wrong with the Dark One. He's dead, or imprisoned, or corrupted, or has been replaced with an impostor, or something. He either can't talk to Redcloak directly (because he's incapacitated) or he won't (because Redcloak would notice if something was wrong with the Dark One.) The Plan is running on autopilot, and the Dark One's clerics are tapping into a reservoir of leftover divine energy.
Jirix's testimony is the only evidence we have that the Dark One is around, and is who we believe he is. It seems to me that Jirix might've been corrupted as well, or he's lying, or whatever replaced the Dark One successfully deceived him, or maybe what came back after his resurrection wasn't Jirix.
However, there's a problem with this.
3.) Jirix is barely a character.
Jirix hasn't been seen for about a decade. When he was in the comic, he was a tertiary character in a side-plot. What do we actually know about him? Well, he's probably mid-level, and Xykon considers him fun. He's probably more Chaotic and/or has a higher Charisma stat than Redcloak. That's pretty much it.
If the Dark One wasn't actually around, it would be another huge twist. It would be another complication that would likely throw the plot in a different direction. It feels... strange to have this sort of thing hinge on the word of a character who's otherwise totally unimportant to the plot. Jirix could be an unreliable narrator, but he hasn't exactly been set up as one. You can do this sort of thing as an author, but I don't think OOTS is the kind of story that pivots on the actions of extremely minor NPCs that briefly appeared ten years ago.
So, TL;DR: No idea what's going on! But this is all very weird, and that's probably important.
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2021-11-01, 12:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Don't Screw This Up."
What I meant was "his special ringtone came with the mission, and Thor didn't give him said mission until after he died, so were it not for his death, his calls would have ended up in the 'never answered' bin with all the others."
Yeah, each god interacts with their followers in a very on-brand way. As I said in my response to P-rex, the thing that's striking to me is how TDO has put out two personas: the Dark One that's demanding and aloof with his High Priest and expects him to just do his bidding without any nurturing/revelations, and the Dark One who directly reveals himself to a lower cleric just to inspire him on a much less warlike/aggressive mission.
For all we know, not pestering Redcloak might as well be his way of expressing his satisfaction (if Red's doing evrything right, he doesn't need instructions).
Both of those versions of the Dark One make sense in context. And I know that gods can behave differently in different circumstances...because regular mortals do that, too. But because Redcloak drew attention to it in #1206, I feel like we're going to find out something about this difference.
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2021-11-01, 12:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Don't Screw This Up."
Thanks for your comments! I agree on Jirix's relative unimportance (although there's still a prevalent theory amongst forum readers that Jirix will assume the Crimson Mantle after Redcloak's character arc leads him to die without redemption), and that also makes me think he's more likely to have been honest in his revelation.
Also, the "TDO is actually dead/captured/missing" theory has never stuck for me, because like you said it'd be a weird confusing direction to take the story without any extra setup. Plus, I think if clerics are praying to a specific god they do actually need that god's active approval for their prepared spells. The Creed of the Stone is different, but theistic clerics do seem to need that actual back-and-forth from an extant god.
Good to know, thanks for clarifying.
For all we know, not pestering Redcloak might as well be his way of expressing his satisfaction (if Red's doing evrything right, he doesn't need instructions).
Before #1206, Redcloak's conversation with Jirix made total sense in the moment. It was only when I re-read it recently that I thought, hey, Redcloak has never spoken to The Dark One directly about anything, never gotten advice from him, never told him how things are going, and now we know that it bothers him! I wonder if Redcloak was masking some jealousy of Jirix in that moment.
Ugh, why couldn't *I* have gotten impaled by an iron prison bar?? Jirix has all the luck.
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2021-11-01, 12:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-11-01, 12:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Don't Screw This Up."
Depends -- is it a +5 Iron Prison Bar of Badassery?
Reminds me of the Holy Brick on a Rope from The Weekly Roll
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2021-11-01, 12:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-11-01, 01:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Don't Screw This Up."
Obviously, V had secretly cast greater magic wapon on the prison bar. Her direct attacks were just a distraction.
(Color blue to taste)Spoiler: I'm a seer
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2021-11-01, 01:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Don't Screw This Up."
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2021-11-04, 01:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Don't Screw This Up."
Warhammer 40,000 Campaign Skirmish Game: Warpstrike
My Spelljammer stuff (including an orbit tracker), 2E AD&D spreadsheet, and Vault of the Drow maps are available in my Dropbox. Feel free to use or not use it as you see fit!
Thri-Kreen Ranger/Psionicist by me, based off of Rich's A Monster for Every Season
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2021-11-04, 05:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Don't Screw This Up."
I guess I should have specified "except early comic jokes"... well, that's my mistake.
But even if we don't ignore it, this was only about spell selection. Granting spells is something The Dark One does for Redcloak as well, so it's not an unfair advantage Durkon has.Spoiler: I'm a seer
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2021-11-04, 09:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Don't Screw This Up."
Hel had one cleric. Of course she answered its calls. Even after it made a few friends.
Thor and Loki have uncounted clerics. I'd imagine they get tired of answering calls, which is why they hire sec... devas to do the job.
But TDO has another issue:
Interacting on the mortal plane costs divine energy.
As a new deity, TDO must dole out spells to all his clerics so they can increase the amount of belief and worship he gets, with the goal of earning devotion and souls. This costs divine energy, and the largest single consumer of this energy is our buddy Redcloak. Granting a single 9th level spell consumes the energy of 81 first level spells, and we know RC isn't frugal with his casting.
Commune is not free. How much more does it cost for a diety to actually converse with a mortal?
Aside from the devotion granted by each goblinoid who was slain in RC's quest, has Redcloak actually spread the worship of or belief in TDO? Has he brought in a single new soul?
It seems to me that RC is not the only one investing heavily in a sunk cost fallacy.
It may be that, having spent so much already, there would need to be a really good reason for TDO to pay the roaming charges to talk to Redcloak.Last edited by brian 333; 2021-11-04 at 09:37 PM.
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2021-11-05, 09:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Don't Screw This Up."
TDO running into TNSTAAFL made me grin.
There's no such thing as a free lunch, see R. A. HeinleinAvatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society