[3.5e Bloodline Guide] What in the Nine Hells is a Bloodline?

[EdroGrimshell]

Thank you EdroGrimshell for your magnificent new Aberrant feats)

You are very much welcome. Glad to see it's appreciated. And as a shameless attempt to revive it, feel free to suggest new feats i can try to create for that thread and i will try to create them.

[Merchant]

Amechra: That is too cool. (Evil character plus bloodline paragon?

as well as kudos to Owrtho for the blooded race.

I was just reminded of a base class that has been brought back to life as well as being worked on. It's thread name was something about primiscuous or something. And it dealt with a single bloodline of various choices. It was interesting and I thought it would be pretty nice having a base class like that added to the blooded/blooded paragon.

And I was just wondering with the blooded and blooded paragon. If they were a Xenoalchemist with that feat that Welknair made. Blood Study? Could a Blooded gain even more bloodlines of some level with that?

[Welknair]

And I was just wondering with the blooded and blooded paragon. If they were a Xenoalchemist with that feat that Welknair made. Blood Study? Could a Blooded gain even more bloodlines of some level with that?

No, I don't believe they could. I forgot to add clarification after I changed the slot to Torso, but you cannot have both an artificial and a natural bloodline existing in the same person. Unless the Xenoalchemist has Blood Alchemy, that is. That would allow them to give an individual that has a Minor or Intermediate bloodline another Minor or Intermediate. So unless the Blooded's modified bloodlines total up to a Minor or Intermediate, they can't add more via Xenoalchemy.


After some further thought, I think you're right about the Blooded needing some tweaking, Owthro. They start out with significant disadvantages, as you said, but they quickly begin making up for it, especially if they take their racial paragon. Which is just scary. With two major, one intermediate, they get 8 ability +1s. If you choose the correct bloodlines to get those bonuses in the same areas, you have quite a bit of power there. And the bloodlines become looking particularly wonderful to casters that desire the mental boosts that they find so rare in races.

When I had original thought of a race or class using my bloodlines, the idea always revolved around changing which bloodlines were active at any given time. Though you may have the blood of eight different supernatural beings, they can't all manifest at once. The character usually started with a single Major Bloodline and access to two or three bloodlines. They could then spend a quantity of time assigning which bloodline was actually active within their Major. And then you can have all sorts of fun with Mudblood, as you can actually have all three active at once. So with this system, it eliminates some of the immediate dangers of the massive numbers of bloodlines, while still keeping it usable and interesting.

Just something to think about.

[Owrtho]

After some further thought, I think you're right about the Blooded needing some tweaking, Owthro. They start out with significant disadvantages, as you said, but they quickly begin making up for it, especially if they take their racial paragon. Which is just scary. With two major, one intermediate, they get 8 ability +1s. If you choose the correct bloodlines to get those bonuses in the same areas, you have quite a bit of power there. And the bloodlines become looking particularly wonderful to casters that desire the mental boosts that they find so rare in races.

That was my general concern. The race almost requires their paragon to not be terrible, but then if they take it, in 3 levels they practically get another class that they progress while taking levels in anything else. One thought I had was possibly giving them a 'free' bloodline level (thus allowing them to take an intermediate without needing to give anything up), then removing one of the latent bloodlines from the paragon (likely the level 2 one, and moving the bloodline level down to it's place from level 3). They would still be potentially powerful, but less so (if only slightly).

Though looking at it, doing so would allow for 2 major bloodlines and 1 minor. providing a total of +7 ability modifiers, as well as a smattering of other abilities, in exchange for -4 to abilities and 4 levels (3 paragon, 1 bloodline), which when compared to some other races with LA/HD doesn't seem that bad. Thoughts?

When I had original thought of a race or class using my bloodlines, the idea always revolved around changing which bloodlines were active at any given time. Though you may have the blood of eight different supernatural beings, they can't all manifest at once. The character usually started with a single Major Bloodline and access to two or three bloodlines. They could then spend a quantity of time assigning which bloodline was actually active within their Major. And then you can have all sorts of fun with Mudblood, as you can actually have all three active at once. So with this system, it eliminates some of the immediate dangers of the massive numbers of bloodlines, while still keeping it usable and interesting.

Well, that would actually be closer to TravelLog's idea. While I think it's a good idea that would be worth making, the idea of the blooded was for a race that would could have more than the normal bloodline strength on its own.

Still in part it can be somewhat difficult to judge bloodlines from a balance perspective at least with races. Namely as their scaling nature can make them overly weak at early levels, or overly strong at later ones (depending on what factors you give the race to try balancing it.

Owrtho

[Welknair]

That was my general concern. The race almost requires their paragon to not be terrible, but then if they take it, in 3 levels they practically get another class that they progress while taking levels in anything else. One thought I had was possibly giving them a 'free' bloodline level (thus allowing them to take an intermediate without needing to give anything up), then removing one of the latent bloodlines from the paragon (likely the level 2 one, and moving the bloodline level down to it's place from level 3). They would still be potentially powerful, but less so (if only slightly).

Though looking at it, doing so would allow for 2 major bloodlines and 1 minor. providing a total of +7 ability modifiers, as well as a smattering of other abilities, in exchange for -4 to abilities and 4 levels (3 paragon, 1 bloodline), which when compared to some other races with LA/HD doesn't seem that bad. Thoughts?

Hm. That certainly seems a bit better. Could still be quite scary though.

Well, that would actually be closer to TravelLog's idea. While I think it's a good idea that would be worth making, the idea of the blooded was for a race that would could have more than the normal bloodline strength on its own.

Still in part it can be somewhat difficult to judge bloodlines from a balance perspective at least with races. Namely as their scaling nature can make them overly weak at early levels, or overly strong at later ones (depending on what factors you give the race to try balancing it.

Owrtho

It's the nature of the beast. And ironically, I have never seen a bloodline in play. Just as I started making these, we switched to playing my homebrew system. I've never actually used a bloodline. That certainly doesn't help with trying to balance them.

As you said, the real problem is that bloodlines give scaling benefits. So you have two options to mitigate this. 1: Static penalties you have from the get-go, causing the character to be weaker early on and more powerful later as the benefits surpass the penalties or 2: Attempt to make scaling penalties. But how in the world would you get those to work--


Oh, Boccob. Cursed Bloodlines. It's like a Bloodline, except where you would have bonuses, you have penalties. Where you would have specials, you have curses and detriments. A Cursed Bloodline would be to normal Bloodlines what Flaws are to Feats, either allowing you to get one for free or cash in for some other benefit.

...

Time to make some curses.

[Owrtho]

Oh, Boccob. Cursed Bloodlines. It's like a Bloodline, except where you would have bonuses, you have penalties. Where you would have specials, you have curses and detriments. A Cursed Bloodline would be to normal Bloodlines what Flaws are to Feats, either allowing you to get one for free or cash in for some other benefit.

That certainly sounds like an interesting idea. I take it they could also qualify for a cursed mudblood bloodline, if someone wants to mix and match lesser curses to buy off a stronger bloodline? Well, I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

Owrtho

[Welknair]

That certainly sounds like an interesting idea. I take it they could also qualify for a cursed mudblood bloodline, if someone wants to mix and match lesser curses to buy off a stronger bloodline? Well, I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

Owrtho

That would certainly be possible.


Though I'd need to be careful to avoid them being able to be used for min/maxing. Which I the last thing I want to encourage.

[Cieyrin]

I just remembered something else of interest, in that the 3rd party campaign setting Midnight had something similar to bloodlines, called Heroic Paths, that are essentially Major Bloodlines without bloodline levels attached. It's somewhat balanced to the fact the setting is fairly low magic and every PC gets one. If you choose to look into it, look for the 2nd Edition, as 1st is 3.0. 2nd is expanded immensely on the material, as well as additional Heroic Paths and you can find it pretty cheap on RPG Drive-Thru, as well as other PDF sites as well, I'd imagine.

As for the bloodlines here, is there a good place to start looking though them? The bloodlines are well explained about what they are and how to use them but I seem to have missed a central page to find 'em all, unless they're in Welknair's homebrew sig...

[Amechra]

They are in his sig.

[Pyromancer999]

Just so people know, I made the Weapons of Legacy bloodline, as it was suggested I should, and also another for descendants of Monsters of Legacy, located here.

[EdroGrimshell]

I really can't wait for the Vampire Bloodline, my character in one game has a vampire theme and i hope to use it if you finish in time.

[Cieyrin]

Having read through a bunch of the bloodlines, they are put together rather well. I was reading Titankith and True Size is a bit ambiguous on what y'mean by 'usual stat modifiers.' Y'mean the table in the MM for increasing size categories, so +16 Str, -4 Dex, +8 Con? Do you get the free Natural Armor boost, too? And this is assuming you go from Medium to Huge. What if you're Small or if you're already Huge size due to Expansion? As you can see, it's a bit messy. I'd suggest going the route of Enlarge Person, Righteous Might and Expansion and define exactly what benefits you get from True Size. Othrewise, I've quite enjoyed reading through the material.

[Welknair]

Why thank you, Cieyrin. I have made edits to True Size to hopefully remove the ambiguity. Let me know if you do not find this fix satisfactory.

[Cieyrin]

Why thank you, Cieyrin. I have made edits to True Size to hopefully remove the ambiguity. Let me know if you do not find this fix satisfactory.

Better and far less ambiguous. The only thing is you can link directly to the size rules instead of people having to scroll. Links are here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/mov...aturesInCombat and here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingM...#sizeIncreases

[Welknair]

Better and far less ambiguous. The only thing is you can link directly to the size rules instead of people having to scroll. Links are here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/mov...aturesInCombat and here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingM...#sizeIncreases

Changes made. After thinking about the "two size categories larger" thing, it makes me wonder. What would happen if you had a Halfling Titankith? I think that would be an amazing character concept.

[jojolagger]

Changes made. After thinking about the "two size categories larger" thing, it makes me wonder. What would happen if you had a Halfling Titankith? I think that would be an amazing character concept.

Something like Tiny von BigMcLargeHuge?

[Cieyrin]

Changes made. After thinking about the "two size categories larger" thing, it makes me wonder. What would happen if you had a Halfling Titankith? I think that would be an amazing character concept.

Redcaps are small fey from MM3 that have Powerful Build. Works well for them, so I don't think it should be any problem for Halflings.

[Pyromancer999]

Changes made. After thinking about the "two size categories larger" thing, it makes me wonder. What would happen if you had a Halfling Titankith? I think that would be an amazing character concept.

Tordek and Regdar suddenly stopped, halting the party's progress in the corridor.

"What was that about?" asked Mialee.

"I heard something far off in the distance, like a shriek of a child" replied Regdar.

"Or the battle cry of a gnat.", chimed in Tordek.

The only thing the party saw before it was wiped out was a gigantic hammer with a tiny pair of feet poking out under it.



It'd be sort of like that.

[Cieyrin]

Tordek and Regdar suddenly stopped, halting the party's progress in the corridor.

"What was that about?" asked Mialee.

"I heard something far off in the distance, like a shriek of a child" replied Regdar.

"Or the battle cry of a gnat.", chimed in Tordek.

The only thing the party saw before it was wiped out was a gigantic hammer with a tiny pair of feet poking out under it.



It'd be sort of like that.

I vaguely recall a Pixie Barbarian in Neverwinter Nights at some point with a Medium Battle Axe. Amusing, he was. Same image.

[Amechra]

I have another bloodline-using base class for you all to peruse:

The Gestaltwandler.

Essentially, it is Shapechange Druid+Bloodlines+Favored Enemyish ability vs. your bloodline affinities.

Yay, bonus to damage against anyone on Valentine's Day at dusk whose Truenames are known to the attacker!

[Merchant]

I remembered a little while back ago that there was a class called the foregoer. It had a family tie kind of feel to it. It was a mongrel folk prestige class.Mongrel folk seem like a good race that could have a high chance of bloodlines.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...47&postcount=1

How would that ability come into play. Simply added ones bloodline to ones own?

Sorry if it seems like i'm competing homebrew vs another. Sometimes they aren't compatible. I'm just wondering.

[Welknair]

I remembered a little while back ago that there was a class called the foregoer. It had a family tie kind of feel to it. It was a mongrel folk prestige class.Mongrel folk seem like a good race that could have a high chance of bloodlines.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...47&postcount=1

How would that ability come into play. Simply added ones bloodline to ones own?

Sorry if it seems like i'm competing homebrew vs another. Sometimes they aren't compatible. I'm just wondering.

Currently, as written, there would be no connection between the Foregoer and my Bloodlines. You'd simply be a Foregoer that has a bloodline. However, if I were the DM I'd allow you to select Bloodlines for Racial Traits, and instead of selecting a single racial trait, you gain the first Special Ability. Second time taking it, you gain the second Special, the third you get the Affinity, and a +1 to the first Ability that the bloodline gives a bonus to.

Not a perfect fix, but it'd work.


Edit: And don't forget to check out the new Blood King base class!

[Pyromancer999]

The Blood King class is pretty good. Gives access to pretty much Five+ Major Bloodlines at 20th. Everyone should check it out.

Also, one person I know was looking at your bloodlines, and suggested that players should be able to give up feat slots(such as those available through normal gain(1,3,6,9, etc.) instead of class levels if they want. What do you think of this? Would it work, and if so, how many feat slots do you think would be equivalent to a bloodline level?

[Amechra]

Feat slots from levels? Have them lose the ones at 3rd, 6th, and 12th; feats are actually more valuable than levels, just due to relative scarcity (you have 20 levels, but only ~7 feats from levels.)

Maybe make them incapable of gaining feats on those levels; this would include Bonus Feats from anything but their bloodline...

[flabort]

Mind if I park this here? Feel free to pick it apart, discard it, and/or ignore it, or alternatively praise it or actually use it in a game.

This is my interpretation of a Race that grants two major bloodlines (which may potentially be Mudblood).
It sucks for casters, but that's not the point.

Spoiler

Show

Dire Mudblood
A Dire Mudblood does not come from any race in particular. Rather, they are a complete mixture of races, and magical beings. The extremely mixed up combination of several potentially arcane ancestries and bloodlines results in a rare mutation, a horrible creature that should never have been.

Racial Features:
Monstrous Humanoid
+2 Con, +2 Str, -4 Cha (minimum 1), -4 Int (minimum 3), -2 Wis (minimum 1)
Large Size: -1 to armor class, -1 on attack rolls, -4 to hide, +4 to grapple, lifting and carrying limits double those of a medium character
Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet
A Dire Mudblood's base land speed is 20 feet
Racial Hit die: A Dire Mudblood begins with 8 levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 8d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +8, and Base Saving Throw bonuses Fort +2, Ref +6, and Will +6.
Racial Skills: A Dire Mudblood's monstrous humanoid levels give it 11 x (2+Int mod, minimum 1) skill points. Its class skills are Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Search, and Spot.
Special Qualities: Fast healing 2, Double Major Bloodline
Automatic Languages: Common
Bonus languages: Any, excepting secret languages like Druidic
Favored Class: Fighter

Double Major Bloodline: The Dire Mudblood may take two major bloodlines at once. He gains the abilities and bonuses of both bloodlines each level, although if they gain bonuses to the same skills or abilities they do not stack. The Dire Mudblood is treated as if he had already taken two Bloodline Levels for each bloodline for purposes of when he stops gaining abilities from them, although he does not obtain any additional bonuses or effective character level from this. He must still take another bloodline level for each major bloodline before or at 12th level, or suffer the usual penalties. Taking only one bloodline level before 12th level negates the penalties for one bloodline, but not the other.
The Mudblood bloodline is the most frequent bloodline to show through, due to it's extremely mixed origins.

Yeah, it's a bit weird. 8 HD, net -6 to ability scores, and whatnot.

[Welknair]

Also, one person I know was looking at your bloodlines, and suggested that players should be able to give up feat slots(such as those available through normal gain(1,3,6,9, etc.) instead of class levels if they want. What do you think of this? Would it work, and if so, how many feat slots do you think would be equivalent to a bloodline level?

Feat slots from levels? Have them lose the ones at 3rd, 6th, and 12th; feats are actually more valuable than levels, just due to relative scarcity (you have 20 levels, but only ~7 feats from levels.)

Maybe make them incapable of gaining feats on those levels; this would include Bonus Feats from anything but their bloodline...

Well many Bloodlines give bonus feats, the most notable example being the Inherent which I recently made for your feat chains, Pyromancer. And that gives one every other level at Major.. So giving up feats.. Hm. I don't think three feats are proper recompense for a Major.. All natural feats for Intermediate seems like it'd be a bit harsh. Bloodlines really were made with level-loss in mind. Changing to feats is going to be a tad odd. Perhaps each feat spent on the bloodline would---

Dormant Blood
You have called forth the power of a bloodline within you that once lay dormant
Benefit: You are treated as if you had a Major Bloodline and were a character of second level for purpose of determining which abilities you gain from said bloodline and the power of those abilities.
Special: This feat may be taken more than once. Each time you may choose to either select a new Bloodline, or be treated as if you were two levels higher in a Bloodline you have already selected. You may not select a Bloodline which you already possess as a Natural Bloodline. If you have Bloodline Points to allocate, you are treated as if you had two points currently allocated to any bloodline you selected, plus an additional two for each additional time you selected that bloodline. These points may not be Shifted, though they do count towards the limit on how many may be allocated. Inherent is not a valid choice for this feat.

Mind if I park this here? Feel free to pick it apart, discard it, and/or ignore it, or alternatively praise it or actually use it in a game.

This is my interpretation of a Race that grants two major bloodlines (which may potentially be Mudblood).
It sucks for casters, but that's not the point.

Spoiler

Show

Dire Mudblood
A Dire Mudblood does not come from any race in particular. Rather, they are a complete mixture of races, and magical beings. The extremely mixed up combination of several potentially arcane ancestries and bloodlines results in a rare mutation, a horrible creature that should never have been.

Racial Features:
Monstrous Humanoid
+2 Con, +2 Str, -4 Cha (minimum 1), -4 Int (minimum 3), -2 Wis (minimum 1)
Large Size: -1 to armor class, -1 on attack rolls, -4 to hide, +4 to grapple, lifting and carrying limits double those of a medium character
Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet
A Dire Mudblood's base land speed is 20 feet
Racial Hit die: A Dire Mudblood begins with 8 levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 8d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +8, and Base Saving Throw bonuses Fort +2, Ref +6, and Will +6.
Racial Skills: A Dire Mudblood's monstrous humanoid levels give it 11 x (2+Int mod, minimum 1) skill points. Its class skills are Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Search, and Spot.
Special Qualities: Fast healing 2, Double Major Bloodline
Automatic Languages: Common
Bonus languages: Any, excepting secret languages like Druidic
Favored Class: Fighter

Double Major Bloodline: The Dire Mudblood may take two major bloodlines at once. He gains the abilities and bonuses of both bloodlines each level, although if they gain bonuses to the same skills or abilities they do not stack. The Dire Mudblood is treated as if he had already taken two Bloodline Levels for each bloodline for purposes of when he stops gaining abilities from them, although he does not obtain any additional bonuses or effective character level from this. He must still take another bloodline level for each major bloodline before or at 12th level, or suffer the usual penalties. Taking only one bloodline level before 12th level negates the penalties for one bloodline, but not the other.
The Mudblood bloodline is the most frequent bloodline to show through, due to it's extremely mixed origins.

Yeah, it's a bit weird. 8 HD, net -6 to ability scores, and whatnot.

Major Titankith/Dragon Descendant Barbarian. Time to kick some butt.

[flabort]

Major Titankith/Dragon Descendant Barbarian. Time to kick some butt.

Both gain bonuses to strength, con, and wis. They gain the same values of bonuses.

..., although if they gain bonuses to the same skills or abilities they do not stack.

So if one gained a higher strength than the other, and one a higher Con....
OK, so the special abilities make it still worth it.
Yeah, I just threw the race together in a couple of seconds. I was thinking I should have bumped it up to 10 HD... But no. You still want to get 2 class levels in before taking the two bloodline levels, so that you still gain some sort of bonus from them other than "You Don't get a penalty".

...Wait, Does that mean you like it, or you don't?

Edit: you inspired me. I read the Glamerkin bloodline, I'm going to create a bloodline of my own (Damn those lonely wizards!).

[Pyromancer999]

Well many Bloodlines give bonus feats, the most notable example being the Inherent which I recently made for your feat chains, Pyromancer. And that gives one every other level at Major.. So giving up feats.. Hm. I don't think three feats are proper recompense for a Major.. All natural feats for Intermediate seems like it'd be a bit harsh. Bloodlines really were made with level-loss in mind. Changing to feats is going to be a tad odd. Perhaps each feat spent on the bloodline would---

Dormant Blood
You have called forth the power of a bloodline within you that once lay dormant
Benefit: You are treated as if you had a Major Bloodline and were a character of second level for purpose of determining which abilities you gain from said bloodline and the power of those abilities.
Special: This feat may be taken more than once. Each time you may choose to either select a new Bloodline, or be treated as if you were two levels higher in a Bloodline you have already selected. You may not select a Bloodline which you already possess as a Natural Bloodline. If you have Bloodline Points to allocate, you are treated as if you had two points currently allocated to any bloodline you selected, plus an additional two for each additional time you selected that bloodline. These points may not be Shifted, though they do count towards the limit on how many may be allocated.

Looks pretty interesting actually. Also, I was looking at Monster Classes, an old project on these forums, thinking of making a bloodline or two of my own based on the abilities there, when I sort of got a spark of an idea: a generic bloodline that lets you gain abilities from monster classes. I'm not sure if it would work or not, but I'm interested in your opinion of this idea.

[flabort]

here's that bloodline. I fear it may be too strong...

[EdroGrimshell]

I just noticed you do not have bloodlines for some existing systems like psionics, incarnum, and pact magic.

I'd also like to see a bloodline for these things if possible.