Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Math"

[Wraith]

The Old Thread Is Gone. All Hail the New Thread.


Cheesegear presents Cheesegear's Newbie Guide on How to pick Warhammer 40K army, by Cheesegear (and contributors).

Disclaimer: This is not a guide to say which armies are 'better' than other armies. Except in hyperbole. The 'stars' notation is for what Newbies should play. By no means does this mean that you shouldn't play Chaos Daemons. It means that if you're a new player and don't fully understand the rules to the game, it might be hard to make Daemons work.

Any unit that gets specifically mentioned is a stand-out unit, or will represent a 'must-have' unit that the army has.

General Advice for all armies;
Where possible, you should always talk to a GW Staff Member. No, you don't have to actually listen to or do anything they say. But, you should at least talk to them so they can point you in at least a general direction. Don't buy anything on your first trip into the store. GW Staff are very persuasive, and you can - or will - often end up buying something you don't even want.
If and when you do finally decide on an army, play a few games in an actual GW Store using the Store's models. Otherwise, where possible, use proxy models. This will give you a basic understanding of most of the rules and the turn sequence and a general idea of how your army-of-choice plays. Or, at least give you an idea that an army or unit that you thought was cool, really isn't. Or maybe that particular army just isn't for you. And that unit that 'looks cool' doesn't fit your play style.
Read a Codex. Whatever gets said on the internet, means absolutely nothing if you don't have a Codex to understand what's being said. This ties into the above in that it's kind of important that you have played a few games and know the rules.
GW doesn't mention it all that much, but; You don't have to use your army's Codex for your army. For example; It's perfectly reasonable to, say, use the Chaos Space Marine Codex to represent a 1st Company of Loyalist Marines. You can, in fact, use Imperial Guard models to represent Tau, or Eldar. Just so long as your models look suitably awesome and your models conform to the rules of a different list (the WYSIWYG rule). If you can also give a background justification - or 'fluffy' reason - for why your Imperial Guard are wielding Shuriken or Pulse Rifles; Even better!
In regards to the above; 'Counts as' models can generally be shown to be a fluffy reason for why you have what you have. So, maybe your Imperial Guard regiment has a lot of Ogryns. You can use an Ogryn-holding-a-Lascannon as your 'Heavy Weapon Team'. As long as it's WYSIWYG, and at least makes a passing attempt at conforming to the rules (such as base size/shape), nobody cares. However, GW really doesn't like it when you come into their store and start using a different company's miniatures to play a GW game. However, making a scratch-build from Green Stuff and Plasticard is totally okay. Just so long as you aren't giving their competitors money, eh?
With that said; Painting, Green Stuff, Plasticard and Conversions in general, the only way to get better at it, is to practice. Start easy, start small. Start with adding cloaks to troops. Large, rectangular pieces of Green Stuff. Easy. Maybe you'll be confident to add textures. Ability comes with practice. And, there are literally dozens of tutorials to be found on YouTube. And hundreds of tutorials just about everywhere else.
Less is more. Don't try to equip your unit to do everything. Assign your units to fulfill a role, and let them do it. Don't waste points on things you aren't going to use.
Bodies are far more important than Wargear. Do not spend 100 extra points on Wargear, if you could otherwise spend 100 points on buying a whole unit. Wargear is not a substitute for models. Well, it is. But, it's a poor substitute.
In regards to the above two points, very rarely, should you spend more than 200 points on a single model (such as an HQ model), or 300 points on a single unit.
Troops. Win. Games. Do not, under any circumstances, skimp out on your Troops selection. More often than not they are the cheapest unit in the Codex, and, Troops are the only units who can capture an objective. Any unit can contest an objective, but, only Troops can claim objectives. All contesting objectives will do is get you is a Draw.
Assault on Black Reach. Bad for Space Marine players. Good for Ork Players.
Vehicles and You (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8118712&postcount=1011).
Cheesegear's Speaking Of Tournaments.... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8301600&postcount=42) General themes to consider when attending a competitive arena.

Wraith's Handy-Dandy Guide to Painting and Assembling an Army (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8722344&postcount=1421)

Closet_Skeleton says:
"Every Troops choice you spend on a non-Scoring unit is Troops choice wasted."

How To Write An Army List (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8702512&postcount=1358) | Sample (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8713541&postcount=1393)

Should you buy a Battleforce? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8821178&postcount=299) In most cases, yes.

Guide to Armies
Space Marines (Codex Marines, SMs):
Pros: Space Marines are the eponymous 40K army. They are the army by which all other armies are judged. Just about all their units can be outfitted in many different ways to fulfill many different roles (but, in regards to General Advice, they should only try to do one thing at a time). With few exceptions, the entire army selection is plastic for easy conversions and assembly (and, most of the metal models you don't even need). As plastics, the army is also relatively cheap to buy.
GW Staff are extremely knowledgeable on all things Space Marine.
Troops unit choice with the ability to Infiltrate and have Sniper Rifles.
Power Armour and Bolters.

Cons: Honestly, none. Save for the common misinformation that GW Staff will tell you to get you to buy certain units and sets (like Assault on Black Reach). But, this is by no means bad. As a Space Marine is a Space Marine. And pretty much all the units in the Codex can be useful one way or another.
One such example is that there is a growing proportion of Space Marine players who feel - despite the fluff and the statline - that Scout Squads are superior to Tactical Squads (the reason why is outside the scope of this guide).
The only truly bad thing about Space Marines, is that everybody has them. GW sells them at every opportunity. All starter sets ever produced by GW has contained Space Marines as one of the 'learner' armies. By extension, a lot of people turn to Space Marines because that's what they learned the game with, but, what they don't realise, is that the Assault on Black Reach starter kit is weak.

Recommendation for Newbs; *****. But the Assault on Black Reach kit isn't a good start to a Space Marine army. GW likes misinformation.
* or ** depending on whether or not you care about being 'just like everyone else'.
What's so bad about AoBR? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7733811&postcount=990)

Codex Space Marines theoretically allows you to build 7 different 'themes' of Space Marines (even though it's 6) based around what colours and which Special Characters you like. However, any special character can be used in any Chapter, painted any colour that you choose. So, really, what Chapter you choose is kind of irrelevant since you can use other Chapters' special characters anyway.

The common belief is that 'Space Marines is Space Marines'. They all have Power Armour and Bolters. All of the above applies to the below;
Dark Angels: Outdated Codex. A few minor differences. Many people are best off going with Codex Marines rather than playing by Dark Angels rules. The only reason to play Dark Angels is for Ravenwing. And, even then, sometimes you might be better off with Codex Marines with a 'Captain on Bike'. *
Black Templars: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8100822&postcount=940) Outdated Codex. Slightly more focused on close combat. With some unique rules. ***
Space Wolves: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8450662&postcount=510) Space Wolves are actually the 'most fair' list out of all the Space Marine variants. They're a solid list. They have no actual 'bad' or 'trap' units. ****
Blood Angels: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8391413&postcount=357) The only real difference in the List is more options to take Jump Packs, Fast vehicles, and a slight bonus to Deep Striking. Staggeringly similar to Codex Marines otherwise and you wont actually lose much by playing Blood Angels. ****

If you don't understand just what it is that makes these Chapters unique as opposed Codex Marines (read their respective Codecies), or you don't like or don't plan on using what makes them unique; You're better off sticking to Codex Marines. You can still paint your Space Marines as Blood Angels and use Codex Marines.

Chaos Space Marines (Chaos Marines, CSMs):
Like Space Marines, but Evil. So, just about everything that applies to Space Marines applies to Chaos Space Marines.
Pros: Chaos Space Marines are slightly more focused on close combat than their Imperial counterparts - but, by no means to they have to be. CSMs are not necessarily 'better' than regular SMs. Just...Different. Each faction has different toys at their disposal.
There are a variety of different ways you can outfit your squads, and it's kind of difficult to find any two CSM armies the same.
Power Armour and Bolters.
Converting your 'Starter Box' Space Marine army to Chaos Marines is fairly easy. Just add spikes and arrows and mutations.

Cons: There are options in the Codex. Too many options some say. It's very easy to get confused on what or what not to get for your squads and characters. And it's even easier to go overboard on wargear and skills and the like (remember; Wargear != Bodies).
CSMs are also a fairly commonly seen army as they cater to the people who want to play Space Marines, but, think that 'Evil is Cool'. Some do consider who they get associated with as a bad thing.
The 'some of everything' approach that a lot of new players have when collecting their armies doesn't really work for Chaos Marines. Most of the time, you're best off going all-out on one or two of the Cult units (below).

Recommendation for Newbies: ****

Chaos Space Marines (Cults):

Contributions supplied by Winterwind, DaedalusMkV and unknowingly by Myatar Panwar

World Eaters/Khorne-based/Beserkers:
Lots of attacks...Aaand...That's about it. Khorne Beserkers have WS 5 and also gain Furious Charge, meaning that when Assaulting, they're hitting and wounding most things on 3s and 2/3s. Their initiative 5 (when Assaulting) helps them a lot when they can strike before most enemies and kill them before they get attacks back. Khorne Berzerkers are fairly good at what they do, but, their individual unit effectiveness is directly proportional to their opponent's armour save.
Meaning, that, for the most part, you need lots of Beserkers. Lots. Khorne Beserker armies also don't function very well without Rhinos, as their only ranged weapons are Pistols. So, this is a lot of currency. On top of which; As they lack ranged weapons, Obliterators, Vindicators and Defilers are almost required for the army.
Khorne Lords and Daemon Princes are considered to be the least efficient. The Daemon Weapon gives you double the chance to hurt yourself. As well as +2D6 Power Weapon attacks is pretty much overkill. You don't really need that many.
Their special character - Kharn - is quite good though.
*** You will need Rhinos. Luckily, Berzerkers come in boxes of 12 (which is more than the other Cult units) and are plastic. Which is good.

Thousand Sons/Tzeentch-based:
All models with the Mark of Tzeentch gain an Invulnerable save. Or, their save gets improved if they already have one. This makes Tzeentch-based lists very tough to kill on the outset.
Onto specialised units; Thousand Sons are a Troop choice that comes with a 4+ invulnerable save, and have AP3 Bolters. Perfect for objective-squatting. This also makes them deadly in ranged firefights - and their invulnerable save makes them hard to kill on the return. Being Slow and Purposeful, it's a good idea to get as much use our their Bolters as you can get.
Thousand Sons also have a Sorcerer as their 'Sergeant'. Chaos Psychic Powers being as they are, this is quite good, as most 'shooting' powers tend to be AP3 or better, or allow no save at all. The Sorcerer also comes with a Force Weapon (add Warptime for fun). Meaning units with an Independent Character kind of need to think twice before Assaulting Thousand Sons units.
However, units without Independent Characters (that you can't target), and other dedicated Assault units will have an easy time. As Thousand Sons are the worst Assault unit in the Codex. But, this isn't saying a whole lot, as they're still Space Marines.
Tzeentch Daemon Princes and Sorcerers are quite good, able to choose and use two powers in the same turn. As well as receiving a better Invulnerable save. Tzeentch Lords are 'okay'. The Tzeentch special character - Ahriman - is pretty good. But, far too overpoints'd.
*** Thousand Sons boxes are expensive. But, you get plenty in a box.

Emperor's Children/Slaanesh-based/Noise Marines:
Marks of Slaanesh add to Initiative. This means pretty much everything in the CSM army will be functioning at Initiative 5. If you're unit holds Power Weapons, you can do a lot of damage before your opponent even gets to attack.
Noise Marines. Are. Amazing. Sonic Blasters are essentially Storm Bolters that get an extra shot if you're standing still. A Blastmaster, is a S8, AP3 Blast weapon that causes Pinning. Do you want yet? Just before Assaulting, the Noise Marine Champion has access to a S5, AP3 Flamer. This will kill things dead. Then Assault, at Initiative 5 (if you're opponent didn't fail their Morale check from you shooting the crap out of them, that is) and you can do some serious damage.
Daemon Princes and Sorcerers gain Lash of Submission. Usually considered one of the more unfair psychic powers as it allows you to move your opponent's models. Where? Into Dangerous Terrain, out of their precious cover, towards your own models into Assault range, or even just moving their Heavy Weapon team out of LoS.
Chaos Lords with Blissgiver are perfect Character killers as with 3+D6 attacks and Initiative 6, they only need to cause one wound (with a 'Power Weapon') to kill pretty much anything they want.
Lucius the Eternal is just as good as - if not better than - Kharn. And doesn't even cost that many points.
**** The Noise Marine box doesn't come with with many Sonic Blasters. They are, however, available in bulk from Mail Order. But, they're not that important. You're really only getting Noise Marines for Blastmasters and Doom Sirens.

Death Guard/Nurgle-based/Plague Marines:
Extra Toughness. Might not seem like much. But, it's (usually) the most expensive Mark for units that can take it for a reason. Works best on models in Terminator Armour or models on Bikes.
Plauge Marines are pretty much exactly the same as regular Chaos Marines, except with Toughness 5 and Feel No Pain. They're extremely hard to kill. On top of which, they have Defensive Grenades. And that's pretty good. Aaand...That's about it actually. Not much can be said about Plague Marines except exactly that.
The Mark of Nurgle is mostly wasted on Daemon Princes as they don't really need the extra Toughness compared to what else they could take and Sorcerers on gain access to Nurgle's Rot, which, again, compared to other powers, isn't that great. As Nurgle's Rot works best in close combat. But, Nurgle Sorcerers only get one psychic power per turn. So, it's Nova, or use the Force Weapon.
On Chaos Lords (especially in Terminator Armour), the Mark of Nurgle is alright. Giving access to a reasonably good Daemon Weapon.
The special character for Death Guard is Typhus. He's pretty damn good. Opinion appears to be divided on whether or not he's worth the points. He has Wind of Chaos, and Nurgle's Rot (otherwise known as Nurgle's Nova). And he auto-passes all psychic tests when using those powers. As well as having the Nurgle-based Daemon Weapon, that also counts as a Force Weapon. As well as Terminator Armour and Defensive Grenades. Whether you like him or not is your choice.
**** Plague Marines are pretty boring for options. But, Toughness 5 and Feel No Pain are really, really good. And the Mark of Nurgle is usually the most expensive Mark for those who would get any real use out of it.

Tyranids ('Nids):
If you think of the movie Alien, or Starship Troopers, Tyranids aren't far off the mark.
Pros: Tyranids are primarily seen as a close combat swarm army. The big Tyranids are extremely customisable and immensely powerful in whatever role you want to give them (but you should only choose one role at a time, remember), and, the smaller Tyranids come in massive numbers designed to make your opponent crap themselves on just how many bodies you can put on the table. The Tyranids also possess one of the most deadly close combat units in the entire game.
A Troops choice that can Infiltrate.
Most of the army is plastic. And, many of the metal models you only need a few of. So, per box, Tyranids are pretty cheap. Also, the Tyranid Battleforce is generally considered the 'best' one. Although, it's definitely recommended by most of the internet that you get two.

Cons: Like CSMs, it's often possible to overload your Monstrous Creatures with too many biomorphs (wargear), which gets expensive. Fast. And, many of the smaller Tyranids are designed for one unchangeable role. The smaller Tyranids can't adapt their units for what they want to do. A Tyranid army is usually seen as very shooty-heavy, or very assault-heavy. It very - extremely rarely - can be both. Often, trying to be both is actually a detriment to the Tyranid army.

Without the bigger Tyranids to back them up, the smaller Tyranids suddenly become a lot more vulnerable, partly because they already have low toughness and high armour saves to begin with. Therefore, you may need to spend a bit of money on the larger, more expensive models.
As a swarm army, box-per-box, you also don't get very many points in each box. This means you'll probably have to end up spending a lot of money to get a decent amount of points onto the table.

Also, like SMs and CSMs, if a 14 year old kid isn't playing SMs or CSMs, then they're playing Tyranids.

Reccomendation for Newbies: ** to ****. Depending on how much real-world currency you have to spend. If you don't have a lot of money, you wont be able to field a lot of bodies or acquire the larger Monstrous Creatures. If you can field ~50 Termagants and 50 Hormagaunts per battle and have Monstrous Creatures to back them up...Good.

Eldar:
Elves. In SPAAACE!
Pros: The Eldar boast a 'swiss army knife' army. They have a unit for everything and every unit can do their job well. Each and every unit looks vastly different to every other unit, and are actually supposed to be painted in different colours to each other. So, you have a huge variety of models and colours. If variety is important to you.
Most of the army can Fleet. All Eldar tanks are Fast, Skimmers, and the army contains Eldar Jetbikes (which have different rules to 'normal' Jetbikes). In short, the Eldar army boasts speed and maneuverability.
As with their Infantry, they also have HQ units to fit certain roles. An Autarch can be outfitted to suit almost any battlefield role. Eldar Farseers and Seer Councils are powerful psykers. And the Avatar is a close combat Monster (literally).
A lot of the metal models in the range come in reasonable sized boxes at a (fairly) reasonable price. The good news is, you usually don't need too many of the metal models.
Troops unit choice with the ability to Infiltrate and have Sniper Rifles.
A Wraithlord is one of the scariest models in the game. An absurdly high Toughness and a reasonable armour save. And can kill troops and heavy armour with equal ease. Often at the same time. It's strength 10 and Monstrous Creature status also means it can rip apart tanks even when it's guns are suited to killing Infantry. It even causes Instant Death on most Infantry that attack it. Including a lot of HQ characters.
Wraithguard are like smaller Wraithlords high Strength and Toughness, with a good save and toting around deadly guns.
...It's possible to build an entire army out of Wraithguard and Wraithlords.

Cons: Low 'Elf' Toughness.
The sheer amount of variety can sometimes make it hard to decide which units to take. Especially since some of the units in the Eldar army overlap, but, achieve their role in slightly different ways. And it's these 'slightly different ways' that can make or break the unit depending on your opponent. Some particular units are even useless or near-useless depending on your opponent.
Every unit fills a role. And is unadaptive. You can't manipulate any squad to do anything other than what it was designed to do (except Dire Avengers). And, in smaller point games where you can't afford to take every unit you want, you'll know that you're missing that unit. Because nothing else you have will be able to perform as well as the missing unit.
It's these missing units that make of most of the metal models that will be in your army. You'll need the metal models.
Individual Wraithguard units can often be prohibitively expensive in currency.
Taking too many Wraithlords in your army will have people crying for curdled dairy products. That is; Cheese. In lower point games, just one Wraithlord is enough for "OMG! Cheese!" cries.

Recommendation for Newbies: *** or ****. The Eldar army is an army where it's hard - but not impossible - to go wrong. With such a huge mandatory variety in models, an 'I want every unit' mindset (common in newbies) is actually beneficial to the Eldar army setup.

Dark Eldar (DE):
Like Eldar, but evil (there's an argument that Dark Eldar are more evil than 'regular Chaos'). But vastly different.
Pros: The Dark Eldar as just as fast and just as maneuverable - if not more - as their 'good' Eldar counterparts. Except pack a lot more firepower. Each and every unit is customisable (unlike Eldar) to attack different things. Splinter Cannons for killing Infantry and Dark Lances for popping tanks. And you can fit a lot of both in an army.
The Dark Eldar close combat portion of the army is nothing to be sneezed at either. The Dark Eldar Lord (home of the 2+ Invulnerable Save) and Incubi retinue is one of the single-deadliest close combat units in the game (the only one better this author can think of is Necron Pariahs). Wyches are also very good.
The Dark Eldar also posses Raiders. A Fast, Skimming, Open-Topped Transport vehicle. For some, this means putting a squad of Warriors in and flying them around the battlefield and shooting anything that moves thanks to being open-topped.
Because a Raider is also Fast, and Open-Topped, and some Dark Eldar Infantry are also Fleet, it means Dark Eldar are often capable of the 'First Turn Assault'. Given just how effective Dark Eldar assault units are, this can only end well.
Also being Open-Topped, it means that when (rarely if) the Raider is destroyed, it's occupants can bail out easier.
In the hands of someone who has played Dark Eldar a long time, the army is staggeringly effective.

Cons: Fragile. Fragile. Fragile. The Dark Eldar army is best described as 'shock and awe' (read the fluff :smallwink:). The goal of the army is to butcher and hamstring the opponent as quickly and as brutally as possible. If it isn't blindingly obvious that the Dark Eldar are winning by Turn 3 or 4, then they probably wont win the battle at all. By turn 3 or 4, most of the Dark Eldar Raiders should be destroyed (if they're not, laugh), leaving the Dark Eldar to rely on their enormous Toughness of 3, or Jetbikes.
The Dark Eldar have huge reliance on their Raider transport vehicles. This will end up costing a fair bit of currency in the end as nearly every unit will need one for extra protection or speed.
A lot of (effective) Dark Eldar armies tend to look the same.
A lot of the models are old and/or 'not very pretty'. However, some people don't mind that they're 'not pretty', because they're Dark Eldar. They're not supposed to be attractive like 'good' Eldar.
Old Codex. This isn't necessarily a bad thing as the 3rd Ed. Dark Eldar Codex still stands up against recent 5th Ed. Codecies. It isn't bad...Just...Old. And it may or may not be missing out on some fun toys that the other races have been getting.

Recommendation for Newbies: ** or ***. The Dark Eldar are easy to learn, but hard to master. But, once mastered...The Dark Eldar tend to either win by a significant margin (often by Turn 3 or 4), or lose spectacularly (by Turn 5 or 6). If you don't like the models, you can always take regular Eldar, add spikes and make some really awesome conversions. But, doing this is hard.

Necrons:
Think The Terminator, or perhaps think of Undead metal skeletons. And you can think of the Necrons.
Pros: Some of the toughest basic Troops in the entire game.
Power Armour and Bolters. Except 'Necron Bolters' have a special version of Rending-but-not-quite, allowing them to wound Toughness 8 or better models or cause Glancing Hits to any vehicle. Including Land Raiders. Yes. The basic Troop type, with no options, can cause Glancing Hits against Land Raiders.
As well as their reasonable Toughness and 'Power Armour', they come with the We'll Be Back rule. Essentially your models can stand back up, even after they've been 'killed'. Like Undead. Or T-800s. Essentially, the Necrons are hard to kill. And sometimes don't even stay dead.
Warscythes - available to Necron Lords and Pariahs - are the best weapon in the entire game. Ignoring all saves - including Invulnerable Saves - and rolling 2D6 for Armour Penetration. Given that both Lords and Pariahs have Strength and Toughness 5, they can and will carve through almost anything put in front of them. Not even 'hard' units, that rely on 2+ armour and Invulnerable saves (like Space Marine Terminators) need to think twice about assaulting Pariahs.
The Necron army list is straightforward. You don't have to worry about whether to take Flamers or Plasmaguns. The unit is the unit. No fiddling necessary.
Most of the (useful) Necron model range is plastic. And also come at a high in-game points cost. For this reason, the Necrons are probably the cheapest army to buy when it comes to currency.
Necrons are extremely easy to paint.
The C'Tan. The Necrons are able to field near-literal Gods on the battlefield.
The Monolith. There's a legend that if you crack it open, it's full of cheese! (http://tsoalr.com/?p=361)
Disclaimer: Cheesegear does not endorse breaking your Necron Monolith to find out if cheese is inside it.

Cons: First and foremost, the Phase Out rule. When an arbitrary proportion of your army is destroyed, the Necron army automatically loses. Regardless of the mission being played, the opponent has the same objective; 'Kill them all'.
Certain units are able to mitigate Phase Out from happening. One of the best ways to do this is to take a lot of the cheaper - and less fun - units in the army. For this reason, a lot of (effective) Necron armies tend to look pretty boring and are always pretty similar.
The only real individuality to be found in the entire Necron army list is to be found on the Necron Lord. No other unit truly allows options except for whether to take grenades or not.
The Assault capabilities of the Necron army is pretty effective, but, minimal. Either being expensive in points (like the aforementioned awesome Pariahs) and/or are not Troops. The Necron list also has a profound lack of Power Weapons, which doesn't help. The only power weapons found in the Necron list are Warscythes, which are only found on the expensive units; Lords and Pariahs (please note that Warscythes are awesome, however).
Pariahs may be totally awesome, and perhaps the best unit in the game, but, they don't come with the Necron rule. Meaning, every Pariah you get for your army, means that you're one step closer to Phasing Out earlier.
The basic Necron Troop comes at a high points cost, for this reason, Necrons do not often do well in games that are less than 1000 points.
(Unless the opponent doesn't entirely know what they're doing, and doesn't know how to defeat We'll Be Back or force a Phase Out).

Recommendation for Newbies: The Necrons are a very straightforward list. Very few options to get confused about, and extremely easy to paint. Necrons are very much like the Dark Eldar. It's very easy to make a bad list. It's also very easy to make a completely devastating list if you know what you're doing.
* if you can't get your head around Phase Out or want a list that offers variety.
**** or even ***** if you're looking for an easy army to put together and paint. And you can get your head around Phase Out, and know how to make it less bad.

Tau:
With help provided by Nameless Ghost, Ricky S and Selrahc

Tau are the archetypal alien race. Very progressive technology and a near-utopic society. Also draws several parallels to Mechs and Exosuits - if you like that sort of thing.
Pros: Firepower. You want a really 'Shooty' army? You pick Tau.
Like Necrons and Space Marines, you actually can't go very far wrong with the 'normal' Troop choice; Fire Warriors. They have a decent save of 4+, so they aren't dying en masse to Bolter fire. And they boast the best base-Troop weapon in the game. Yes. Better than Bolters. Easily. Their Transport (Devilfish), similarly, for it's points cost is one of the best in the game. Second only to the Eldar Wave Serpent. You can field a very respectable army fielding nothing but Fire Warriors and Devilfish - just bring some anti-armour weapons.

HQ and Elites choices field some very respectable units in the form of Crisis Suits and Stealth Teams. Effectively your Mechs/Exosuits/Gears. With their ability to take a wide array of guns, on top of their ability to fire at multiple units at the same time, it makes them a very nice support unit for your Fire Warriors. Or, even a front-line squadron if you're brave enough. Crisis Suits also possess Jet Packs, rather than Jump Packs. Which is a really cool bonus to have. As it allows you to move in the Assault phase for move-shoot-move combos like Eldar Jetbikes.

Tau Heavy Support though is what you're really looking at. Broadsides are exactly what their name suggests if you're into Naval Warfare. Broadsides carry Railguns; High-strength guns designed to annihilate whatever they're pointed at. And they do it well too.
This author would be remiss if he didn't also mention Hammerheads. One of the better tanks in the game.

Cons: Tau fold like paper in Assault. What they do in Shooting, they lose out in Assault. Even worse than Necrons. Low Weapon Skill, low Toughness, low Initiative, and no access to Power Weapons or weapons that don't allow saves in Assault. Their decent armour saves them somewhat, but not much.

The Tau also have more than their fair share of 'trap' units. Which, outside of Themed Lists, don't actually do very well.
Like taking Kroot. Kroot are better in Assault than pretty much anything else in the army, but, that's not really saying much. You're best off with more Fire Warriors.
Ethereals are extremely good. But, your opponent will pretty much always target him first. And then he becomes a massive liability for your army.

Like Tyranids and Chaos Marines, it's kind of hard not to go overboard on Wargear options on your Crisis Suits, because they're all just so good. Leaving you fewer points to spend on Fire Warriors. Not only that, Crisis Suits are not Terminators, and don't do real well under fire.

Heavy Support choices are expensive in points. Problem is, if you don't take them, you're seriously missing out on some really impressive firepower options.

Recommendation for Newbs; *** The Battleforce is one of the better ones around, so long as you remember that the Kroot are essentially 'free'; If you didn't pay currency for them, you're under no obligation to use them. Replace them with Fire Warriors as soon as you can. The Tau way of battle also requires a lot of tactics to use well (similar to Eldar), in that you need to prioritise fire and occasionally you have no choice but to sacrifice the odd unit here and there. Tau often play very static roles, unless you shell out extra currency for Devilfish. Which isn't always the best thing in the world. And no. There really isn't a way around being bad at Assault. The best thing you can hope for is that you've shot the crap out of your enemy before they get there.

Chaos Daemons (Daemons, CDs)
Daemons. They come out of the Warp to eat your face. That's about all you need to know.
Pros: Chaos Daemons, as an army, possess some of the more powerful units in the game. Strong HQs, strong Elites, reasonably impressive Fast Attack, and some strong Heavy Support in the form of Soul Grinders and Daemon Princes.
The entire army is Invulnerable and sports Eternal Warrior and Fearless on every single unit except the Soul Grinder. But, as a Daemon, the Soul Grinder gets some pretty impressive things on its own. So, Power Weapons and other low AP ranged weapons don't really have any extra effect on Daemons. Your opponent is basically wasting points.
Very powerful Assault army if you can get it there. It only takes three or four models to wipe out an opposing unit of 10 even on a fairly average day.
Very fast army. A number of Beasts/Cavalry and Jump Infantry units, and the whole army Deep Strikes.
High diversity and distinctive imagery of all it's units.
Most of the army is plastic (or soon will be), which keeps currency costs low.

Cons: *Deep Breath* Well, deployment. Before any game even starts, you're at a disadvantage. You can't actually plan with Chaos Daemons. Before the game starts, divide your army in half. Half your army arrives on Turn 1 via Deep Strike, and the rest of the army trickles in over the rest of the game.

...The really annoying part, is that you don't actually get to pick which half you get on the first turn. The only way to make a 'plan' with Daemons, is to have symmetrical halves, so, no matter what comes down, you've got what you want. Which means, all that diversity in models goes out the window as you now need to duplicate every unit. Leading to 'cookie cutter' units. Which nobody really likes - unless you want that.

Yeah, the entire army arrives via Deep Strike and reserves. It's both good and bad, it's more often bad. Since Chaos Daemons have a real lack of shooting. The opposite of Tau, who have low Assault. But, due to Deep Striking, and the disallowance of Assault, your army will get shot at before you get to Assault with your units.

This is solved by 'aggressive Deep Striking', which is ignoring terrain difficulties, and deploying as close to your enemy as you possibly can so you can Assault next turn. This means that you could take casualties from Difficult Terrain, and following Shooting phase from your opponent. To do this, you need lots of models, which costs currency.

The Codex - like Eldar - has a higher-than-normal amount of unit redundancy. Some of those diverse units that you like, just wont be taken because there are other units that can do the same job, better. Like Necrons, Daemons' Elites and Fast Attack choices are mostly just more powerful versions of the Troops units. Because of this reason, Daemons' Troops are pretty lackluster in comparison to everything else. Except that you have to take Troops...well, because they're your Troops. Which is even worse because those Troops units aren't exactly cheap in points.

With such a low save, Fearless is quite often a hindrance. And, unlike Orks or Tyranids, Daemons don't usually have the numbers to keep up a sustained losing-assault. But, Daemons don't usually lose Assault (even with such small unit sizes). So, you've got that.

Recommendation for Newbies: * The deployment rules are like nothing a new player would be able to deal with. Not to mention the complexity and tactics that you need with a Chaos Daemons army in order to win.
** If you really like the imagery and painting/conversion opportunities that Chaos Daemons presents.
Sadly, Daemons are more Cons than Pros unless you build your list a specific way. Which you - a new player - probably wont do.

Daemonhunters and Grey Knights (DHs, GKs): **

Witch Hunters and Sisters of Battle (WHs, SoBs): ***

Orks: *** to ***** depending on how much currency you have (horde army). Extra points because it's the more useful of the AoBR Starter Armies. So, a decent Ork army actually comes stock in the 'newbie box'.

Imperial Guard (IG): * to ***** depending on how much currency you have. A ***** IG army is the single-most expensive army in the entire game. Even more than Daemonhunters.
Imperial Guard Tanks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8434669&postcount=476).

Still to come;
Imperial Guard, Daemon and Witch Hunters and Orks.
These armies I have lot of experience with. Send PMs if you believe you have advice that I might leave out.

Actually looking for, or things I can't write myself;
More General Advice (I think I've covered most of it).

SEND PMs. Don't Derail Thread.
Please submit suggestions for additions to the guide to my PM box as to keep from derailing the thread. Also, try and keep it general. Specifics can be delved into after the aspiring player has picked an army.

19.6.10 - Linked to "Wraith's Handy-Dandy Guide to Painting And Assembling An Army"
20.6.10 - Linked to "How To Write An Army List"
2.7.10 - Linked to Battleforce evaluations and cost-effectiveness.
01.10.10 - Linked to "Speaking Of Tournaments: General Pointers For the Tournament-Bound Army List"

Orks is next (Coming: TBA)

Predecessors:
* Warhammer 40K Tactics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29297)
* Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101608)
* Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119333&highlight=Warhammer)
* Warhammer 40K Tactics IV - The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133984&highlight=Warhammer)
* Warhammer 40K Tactics V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141538&highlight=Warhammer)
* Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149084&highlight=Warhammer)
* Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156779&highlight=Warhammer)

Last Time, on DragonBall Z 40k-in-the-Playground......
Is it a good idea to make your moves according to what the 'average' dice roll says should happen? Should you try not to rely on statistics and instead command through sheer gut instinct? Math vs. Entrails, the debate rages on....
Tren reckons that his Night Spinner is brilliant, and no one has yet told him that he's wrong. Is the all-seeing eye of Cheesegear losing focus, or are the pointy-eared weirdos finally on to something....?
Winterwind has asked 3 times that someone show him a Mech-Eldar army list, but to no avail. Won't someone please think of the Winterwinds!?! :smallfrown:


(Thread Title still up for debate, let me know if someone has something better)

[Trixie]

Also, there was a question if anyone uses ICs, which I'd like to hear, too :smallwink:

[Shas aia Toriia]

You mean like Special Characters IC's? Because those get used a lot.
Or are you talking about the kind of deal where you run your Captain straight down the middle of the field with no support?

[Wraith]

I think he means the former, Shas. Otherwise, since most HQ choices are Independent Characters, it would be a very simple topic :smallsmile:

Anyway, since you asked Trixie, I personally do not use Special Characters very often, but only because I have played only Eldar and (briefly) Daemonhunters for the last 5 years and they never seem to be worth the hassle.

Don't get me wrong, Eldar SC's are quite good (some more so than others, of course) but none of them seem to do anything that I can't already do with an Exarch or Farseer, who are cheaper and thus let me field more useful stuff besides.
Occasionally, when we're making a big game into an even bigger one (3000points+) I might drop Karandras into my Scorpions unit or Maugan Ra into my Dark Reapers, but in truth I don't really want them there - it's just a way for me to get another 7 attacks in close combat or another 5 shots with Reaper launchers without forking out a lot of money on another squad of models and another FoC choice.

And don't even bother asking about the DH characters, for the same sort of thing is true of them too - particularly the Grey Knight SC who gives your opponent a free Lord of Change.... :smalleek:


EDIT: And a Robert Palmer reference is almost as good as this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ&ob=av3e).

Nice choice, dsmiles. I was almost going to use "Everything More Dakka Than Everything Else" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMSGU4GYNFc&feature=related) in the same sort of tone, but I thought it a little smug to start a new thread AND to choose my own, unapproved title to boot. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Changed 'IC' to 'SC', as kindly pointed out below :smalltongue:

[IthilanorStPete]

Special characters! SCs, not ICs! (I'd hope basically everyone uses the latter)

[dentrag2]

As a Necron player, I'd LOVE to have a special character... And would probably use him in every match just for the heck of it. No, the Nightbringer and Deciever don't count.

[Trixie]

Mostly, I meant uniques. I ask, because I asked around the local tourney scene (local, meaning = my country), and found two formats are really popular:

A) You have 1 HQ, 2 Troops, 1 Elite, 1 FA, and 1 HS. After you fill all of them, you get another 1 FA, HS, Elite, and so on.

B) You can't take two units with the same name. So, no for one unit of LC and one of TH Termies, but taking standard and assault Termies is okay. The limit is only waived when you run out of choices in given category, especially troops.

Both formats disallow named ICs, and are supposed to stop "spam" of the strongest units. I think they're both... weird, to say the least.

And now I wonder, are unique ICs so broken and spam as big a problem that you have to do this?

[Gruffard]

IMHO, it depends on the point value.

In say 2k+ your enemy most likely has a enough points to soak the damage the big scary SC can do, or have something to counter it, but depending on your army, at smaller games say 1k or so, some armies barely meet the min requirements for the tourny force chart requirements. That and some armies don't have decent SC, or only have one anyone might honestly consider (for one reason or another).

[dsmiles]

Unfortunately, Tau SCs seem kinda weak to me. I'd rather put my Shas'O'Ukos in a FW XV-8 series (81, 84, or 89) with his two bodyguards and let him go to town. Alternately, I hide my (as yet) unnamed ethereal behind his FW bodyguards (Now with CARBINES!) in the back of the army (as best I can).

EDIT: @Trixie: Wait, what? Can't take two units with the same name? I don't get it...My army list has more than one unit of FWs...I have to give up all but one unit of the mainstay of my force?

[Winterwind]

Winterwind has asked 3 times that someone show him a Mech-Eldar army list, but to no avail. Won't someone please think of the Winterwinds!?! :smallfrown:
:smallbiggrin:

Technically, I asked only once for a list (namely that of Tren, since he'd stated he was having a fair amount of success with it), the other times I only asked how effective Mech-Eldar were (which was answered to my satisfaction).

But, if we're at this topic anyhow, I can try to write up an army list and ask what people think of it.

Keep in mind I've never played against Eldar, so my understanding of what works with them and what doesn't may be somewhat... foggy. :smallwink:

HQ
Farseer - 110 Points
- Runes of Warding, Spirit Stones. Doom

ELITES
Striking Scorpions (x10) - 212 Points
- Exarch, Scorpions Claw, Stalker, Shadow Strike

Fire Dragons (x10) - 192+130 Points
- Exarch, Dragon Breath, Crack Shot, Tank Hunters
+ Wave Serpent with Twin-Linked Eldar Missile Launchers and Spirit Stones

TROOPS
Pathfinders (x10) - 240 Points

Pathfinders (x10) - 240 Points

Guardian Jetbikes (x6) - 152 Points
- Shuriken Cannon (x2)

Guardian Jetbikes (x6) - 152 Points
- Shuriken Cannon (x2)

FAST ATTACK
Vyper - 60 Points
- Scatter Laser

Vyper - 60 Points
- Scatter Laser

HEAVY SUPPORT
Fire Prism - 150 Points
- Holo-field

Fire Prism - 150 Points
- Holo-field

Night Spinner - 150 Points
- Holo-field

Total: 1998


Alternately exchange the Night Spinner for another Fire Prism.

Also alternately, replace the two squads à 6 jetbikes with 2 cannons with four squads à 3 jetbikes with 1 cannon.

Less Wave Serpents, Vypers and Elites than I would have liked... still, how's that look? :smallsmile:


Also, there was a question if anyone uses ICs, which I'd like to hear, too :smallwink:Well, as I already said in the old thread, I don't use any, but they are quite frequently used by other people at my shop, much to my chagrin. Assuming you mean SCs, not ICs, that is. :smallwink:


EDIT: @Trixie: Wait, what? Can't take two units with the same name? I don't get it...My army list has more than one unit of FWs...I have to give up all but one unit of the mainstay of my force?Note these rules also allow you only 2 Troop choices, ever. So, it seems rather clear to me the people devising those did... not exactly think it through too much. :smalltongue:

[Trixie]

EDIT: @Trixie: Wait, what? Can't take two units with the same name? I don't get it...My army list has more than one unit of FWs...I have to give up all but one unit of the mainstay of my force?

I said the limit is waived when you deplete the category. IIRC, for Tau, that would be taking Firewarriors, Kroot, get a waiver, again, Firewarriors, Kroot, etc.

Yes, I know it's weird. It must suck for everyone who isn't Necron.

But the loss of unique ICs sucks too, especially for Dark Angels, Tau, SM, and Blood Angels. This outright deletes some very nice lists.


Note these rules also allow you only 2 Troop choices, ever. So, it seems rather clear to me the people devising those did... not exactly think it through too much. :smalltongue:

That 'etc' included Troops and HQs, too. Yes, I shold have clarified. Still, the upper limit is still the standard GW one, it's the way of filling it that is modified.


And don't even bother asking about the DH characters, for the same sort of thing is true of them too - particularly the Grey Knight SC who gives your opponent a free Lord of Change.... :smalleek:

Which would be good if C:CSM still had Lords of Change. As of now, there's one Codex that can use it, and their GD's are probably already upgraded, as someone in the old thread pointed out.

So, can anyone even benefit from this? :smallconfused:

[Incomp]

And don't even bother asking about the DH characters, for the same sort of thing is true of them too - particularly the Grey Knight SC who gives your opponent a free Lord of Change.... :smalleek:



Sir, I assume you are referencing Brother-Captain Stern, no? Stern does not give your opponent a free Lord of Change. What Stern does do is allows them to upgrade a greater daemon (taken via the adversaries special rule, which I've never seen anyone utilize) into a Lord of Change at no extra cost. So the opponent gets a 100-point Lord of Change, made better by the fact that the rule still works in 5th edition, unlike much of the rest of the codex.

But Stern's pretty bad anyway, so it's not like you'd want to take him even without that dubious disadvantage.

EDIT: As for SC's in general...well, at the place I play, it varies depending on the army. Every obnoxious 12-year old ork player I know (there are many) fields Ghazkull (or however you spell that, you know what I mean) and all the other obnoxious 12-year olds, (tyranid players) field the Swarmlord and that unique zoanthrope as much as possible. However, I rarely see SM, IG (wait, does Pask count?), or Tau special characters.

[dsmiles]

I said the limit is waived when you deplete the category. IIRC, for Tau, that would be taking Firewarriors, Kroot, get a waiver, again, Firewarriors, Kroot, etc.

Yes, I know it's weird. It must suck for everyone who isn't Necron.

But the loss of unique ICs sucks too, especially for Dark Angels, Tau, SM, and Blood Angels. This outright deletes some very nice lists.

Look, I like my Tau, but even I have to say, "Kroot? Eww."
I have them in one 'themed' army list that I just play for gits and shiggles. It's an 'Alien Auxiliaries' List so, Kroot and Vespids (again, eww).

And the loss of SCs isn't that painful to me, as a Tau player. The only one I really like is Shas'O'Redsuitguy with the Eldar(Necron?) artifact sword thingy, and I don't even use one...I just like his fluff.

EDIT: @Trixie: Probably doesn't suck much for 'Nids either. Because, you know, Without Number.

[Shas aia Toriia]

But Stern's pretty bad anyway, so it's not like you'd want to take him even without that dubious disadvantage.

I'm pretty sure all 3rd ed. SC's are garbage, Stern is no exception.

[Winterwind]

Look, I like my Tau, but even I have to say, "Kroot? Eww."
I have them in one 'themed' army list that I just play for gits and shiggles. It's an 'Alien Auxiliaries' List so, Kroot and Vespids (again, eww).

And the loss of SCs isn't that painful to me, as a Tau player. The only one I really like is Shas'O'Redsuitguy with the Eldar(Necron?) artifact sword thingy, and I don't even use one...I just like his fluff.Only, ironically, using that particular SC would have enabled you to skip the Kroot under those rules, if he was not forbidden also. :smalltongue:

[Incomp]

I'm pretty sure all 3rd ed. SC's are garbage, Stern is no exception.

2 wounds? 5+ Invulnerable save? 3 attacks? Are you kidding?

I also think it's funny that he's cheaper than a regular Grand Master.

[Trixie]

And the loss of SCs isn't that painful to me, as a Tau player. The only one I really like is Shas'O'Redsuitguy with the Eldar(Necron?) artifact sword thingy, and I don't even use one...I just like his fluff.

Commander Farsight. Incidentally, I meant him, when I mentioned Tau. I know that if I ever started Tau army, he would lead it. He is so much cooler than all the other HQs combined :smalltongue:

Also, I have checked, and it appears literally no one can take free LoC. C:CSM doesn't have them, C:CD doesn't have GD's you can upgrade, C:DH doesn't have stats for such an upgrade. So, it's paper scare.

[Wraith]

Sir, I assume you are referencing Brother-Captain Stern, no? [.....]
But Stern's pretty bad anyway, so it's not like you'd want to take him even without that dubious disadvantage.

Opponent has a Daemon Prince, pays nothing (+/-0 points) and it turns into a Lord of Change. Meh, it was close enough for me :smalltongue:

Like you say about Stern being bad, I'd genuinely prefer to pay the 40 points difference and take an ordinary Grand Master with the same equipment. That's equivalent to.... What, nearly one Grey Knight with a Psycannon? Not a big loss. And what I get in return does virtually the same thing, but is much better because I'd be allowed to give him Psy-bolts and some other useful things to boot. :smallsmile:

See what I mean about ordinary IC's being just as good - if not better - than a lot of SC's? And given that in this case it's a GREY KNIGHT hero, that's pretty embarrassing....! :smallsmile:

[Incomp]

Also, I have checked, and it appears literally no one can take free LoC. C:CSM doesn't have them, C:CD doesn't have GD's you can upgrade, C:DH doesn't have stats for such an upgrade. So, it's paper scare.

Okay, here's how it works: Your opponent decides to wreck his carefully planned list and use the adversaries rule, taking a greater daemon from C:DH for 100 points and dropping something. You then inform him you are using Brother-Captain Stern, which allows them to "upgrade" (your opponent's GD may be better if they're lucky) their GD to a Lord of Change for no cost. The Lord of Change was provided by the old C:CSM I would assume. Nowadays it is helpfully provided by C:CD.

EDIT: and yeah, Wraith, a grand master (4 points more expensive base, comes with same gear as Stern except no Grimore) IS better than Stern, unless you really really like The Strands of Fate.

[Winterwind]

So... no comments on that list I posted up there? :smallwink:

(Usually, I wouldn't be whining so shortly after posting it, but seeing as there is at least one Eldar player who has responded to posts made after I posted that list, but not mine, an Eldar player renowned for his helpfulness towards less experienced players no less, I figure it may have been overlooked :smalltongue: :smallwink:)

[dsmiles]

Commander Farsight. Incidentally, I meant him, when I mentioned Tau. I know that if I ever started Tau army, he would lead it. He is so much cooler than all the other HQs combined :smalltongue:


Cooler, yes, but I'm in a campaign with a few friends, and I have an XV-8 pilot who ended up getting promoted to Shas'El, then to Shas'O (within 8 months), so it's a matter of personal accomplishment for me now. Plus, with him, I can use any of the FW XV8-series models for his Crisis Suit. (And I really love posing and painting those things! :smallbiggrin:)

[SmartAlec]

So... no comments on that list I posted up there? :smallwink:

If you're going that heavy on the armour, you might want to try adding Spirit Stones. Generally you won't want to reroll a 'stunned' result on the damage table with the holo-fields, but if your tanks are hit and unable to fire, you really, really want them to be able to move out of sight and not get hit again. Against many opponents, you're going to stand or fall by those fire prisms.

[Arcanoi]

I also think it's funny that he's cheaper than a regular Grand Master.

It's important to remember that Brother-Captain Stern is in fact a Brother-Captain, of which there are many, who come in at 61pts each. The Grey Knight Grandmaster is a 0-1 choice, because there is only one Grandmaster.

I'd much rather SCs were rubbish than game-breaking. I'd prefer if they were useful without being broken, but failing that, I'd rather they were rubbish.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Yes; how dare I think differently? Clearly I need to be educated. :smallannoyed: If being a proponent of using statistics the way you do means I'd end up treating people the way you do, I'm pretty sure I want nothing to do with it. Period. You could show me how to blow up the freaking moon with little plastic soldiers, and I wouldn't care a bit.

So what if people believe something different from you? It's not your place to educate anybody. If you want to educate someone, teach them the rules; don't treat your addiction to math like it's the end all, be all.

On a d6, you are going to roll a 4+ roughly half the time. That is a fact.
3+? 2/3. 4+, then 3+? 1/3. 3+ with a re-roll? 8/9. Maths deals in facts.

Dismissing that is tantamount to thinking 2+2=5, and is very similar to claiming any scientific theory as "just a theory".
N.B. Scientific theories have to undergo rigorous testing and collection of huge amounts of data before they can be called a theory.

Also: ad hominem? Really?


B) You can't take two units with the same name. So, no for one unit of LC and one of TH Termies, but taking standard and assault Termies is okay. The limit is only waived when you run out of choices in given category, especially troops.

That's pretty friggin' ridiculous. That's very friggin' ridiculous.


taken via the adversaries special rule, which I've never seen anyone utilize

I don't think it exists any more.


But Stern's pretty bad anyway, so it's not like you'd want to take him even without that dubious disadvantage.

Really? He's 44 points less than a Grandmaster (w/Holocaust, Hammerhand and Grimoire), and has -1A, -1W, and his re-roll thing, which has an immense effect. Bear in mind that any accumulated re-rolls are lost at the end of the player turn, so the opponent can only really use it in Assault, in which case, he's got another re-roll for his armour save.

Winterwind: I'm not sure about the 2x10 Pathfinders. I'd probably drop them down to 2x5 and take some more psykery. Especially Fortune.
I'd also drop Tank Hunters from the Fire Dragons. You have nine Meltaguns, after all.
I'm not sure where the Farseer is meant to go.
Also, your list seems kinda...small. Especially for 2k.

[Wraith]

So... no comments on that list I posted up there? :smallwink:

(Usually, I wouldn't be whining so shortly after posting it, but seeing as there is at least one Eldar player who has responded to posts made after I posted that list, but not mine, an Eldar player renowned for his helpfulness towards less experienced players no less, I figure it may have been overlooked :smalltongue: :smallwink:)

Sorry WW, I was digesting your list as I typed my previous post,but then forgot to respond proper as I was busy adding links to the OP. But since that other helpful Eldar Player won't step up, I suppose I could offer my thoughts.... :smalltongue:

In short, it looks good as a fairly balanced list that tries to fight all-comers, while preferring to do it with more Skimmers than not. You've made the right choice my Infiltrating the Scorpions instead of giving them a transport, despite it upsetting your overall theme, and although the two units of Pathfinders would be just fine as Rangers, I think I understand why you have gone all-out and upgraded them. Perhaps consider taking one Squad of Pathfinders and one of Rangers, which should give you enough points back to invest in more Jetbikes?

I think you're also right to have two squads of 6 Jetbikes, because ultimately they're only T(4) with guardian Armour, and will be wiped out quickly in a smaller amount (see above regarding getting more!)
I agree that it's a shame you ran out of room for another Vyper, as I would really like to run some myself, but in a coin-toss between that and a Night Spinner I think we'd argue a lot and neither would be a particularly better choice than the other so you're not doing anything wrong there.

The only outright criticism that I would offer is that your Farseer looks lost on his own like that.
I'm assuming that he'd join one of the Pathfinder units and spam Doom all game, but you might also consider putting him on a Jetbike with a Singing Spear and running him with one of the Squads.
He can still Doom anything that needs it, but you'll also have a useful anti-tank unit should the need arise (and it very well might, since your only dedicated alternatives are the Fire Prisms, which aren't very efficient and yet are extremely big, attractive targets).

If I were going to make a Mech-List, it would look very different - I'd have a Seer Council-on-Jetbikes instead of Scorpions and probably a Squad of Shining Spears instead of the Fire Dragons - if you;re going to have Jetbikes, have LOTS of them, I say! - but as I said about your list would be the more balanced (and probably far more successful) one :smallsmile:

[Ninja Chocobo]

I think you're also right to have two squads of 6 Jetbikes, because ultimately they're only T(4) with guardian Armour, and will be wiped out quickly in a smaller amount (see above regarding getting more!)

Minor point: Guardian armour is 5+, Jetbikes have a 3+.

[Cheesegear]

SUPER LONG MULTI-MEGA POST!!!


Is it a good idea to make your moves according to what the 'average' dice roll says should happen?

Yes, and No. I think that yes, Statistics has a place, in fact, you don't even need statistics because anyone with a brain, at all, ever, can surely realise that WS5 is better than WS3, and that S/T 4 is better than S/T 4/3.

You don't need statistics. You can surely, without fail, say that 'on average' a Khorne Berzerker will kick the crap out of a Kroot. It's simple numbers on a page, guys. 7 > 4. Everyone knows already.

'Average' dice rolls...Don't belong in 40K. Any decent statistician will tell you that normal distribution doesn't exist with samples under 30. Have you ever rolled 30 dice at once? Unless you're Orks, Guard or 'Nids, probably not. However, that's one of the reasons why good Guard and 'Nids list can consistently win. Because the dice will actually roll what the theory says.

Furthering this, a good statistician will tell you that samples sizes should be somewhere in the two to three hundred range...


Tren reckons that his Night Spinner is brilliant, and no one has yet told him that he's wrong. Is the all-seeing eye of Cheesegear losing focus, or are the pointy-eared weirdos finally on to something....?

Does it count if I was asleep? :smallconfused:

Anyway...


I love my Night Spinner, it's fantastic against just about everything. A S6 rending large blast is nothing to scoff at

Yes it is.


and even with AP- it's going to be forcing a lot of wounds.

High Strength doesn't mean anything if you still get a save. Rending may pay off a few times in game, but, it's not something you can rely on, and therefore not good.

At BS3, it doesn't really get that many Hits in the first place anyway.


For me personally, since most of my local metagame consists of Space Marines, I don't even notice the AP-.

I wish I played in your meta-game. If someone is throwing AP- weapons, then I'm laughing. If I'm not playing Space Marines, then the Night Spinner still allows for cover saves.


People also tend to seriously underestimate having to take a difficult/dangerous terrain check next time you move.

That's probably the only good thing about it. But, you're paying 115 points for privilege. And that's before the pretty costly vehicle upgrades. As a Barrage weapon, it also causes Pinning, I'll give it that.


It's great at sniping special models

No it isn't. Because it's your opponent that decides who takes the wounds.


Actually come to think of it, the same 2000pt mech list has gone 6-0 so far, primarily against Vulkan lists and mech IG, with I think one game against nids.

You're playing 2000 points? Then there's really no excuse to be taking the Night Spinner if you've got that many points. I'm also assuming you're giving vehicle upgrades, which are expensive.

D-Cannons. Also barrage. 3 of them for 150 points gives Multiple Barrage. They always wound on 2s (so could be equivalent to S6 most of the time). Are AP2, so will kill any and everything. Rending isn't an issue. And then on a 6, they get super-Rending causing Instant Death. The only thing that Night Spinners have over D-Cannons is range. But, I think if you're playing a Mech List, you have plenty of long-ranged firepower already.
Add a Warlock with Conceal or Destructor.

A Dark Reaper Exarch with a Tempest Launcher on his own is better than a Night Spinner. Except that he's not on his own and has bodyguards to take wounds for him. For extra survivability.

A Wraithlord takes dual Flamers, EML and Scatter Laser.

Trip-War Walkers on Outflank with dual Scatter Lasers each.

FA 12 is not that tough. Especially if you're also not a Wave Serpent.

A non-upgraded Night Spinner, in lower point games does wonders for it's points cost. In formats where Infantry are the name of the game (like in 1000 points). But, just like anything that you qualify with 'for it's points cost', once you hit larger-scale games, it quickly becomes not that good. Maybe you could try three Fire Prisms.

S6, AP3 is way better than S6, AP-, Rending.
Also, Fire Prisms are BS4, not BS3.


Also, there was a question if anyone uses ICs, Special Characters which I'd like to hear, too :smallwink:

Space Marines, yes. The Space Marine special characters allow for pretty high diversity among the most-played army in the game. Without special characters, all Space Marine armies are pretty much the same, and therefore crap.

Dark Angels without Special Characters are fail. There is zero reason to play Dark Angels if you can't use their Characters. Because some of them are pretty good.

Space Wolves, yes. However, I don't see Ragnar, Ulrik or Bjorn used at all.

Blood Angels, initially, Mephiston was seen quite a lot. But, my meta-game reacted staggeringly quickly to him. Or, perhaps, the Tyranid Codex that came out a few months before already had people reacting to psyker-MCs. However, unlike Tyranids, there are no multiple-MCs to be found in Blood Angels.

These days I see I lot of Gabriel Seth and Tycho in smaller games. And Astorath in larger games for Hammernator killing and lots of passed failed Black Rage rolls. The extra Death Company though, I don't see too often.

Chaos Daemons, yes. Every list I have ever written, and those very few that I've played against, have had a Special Character in it. With the possible exception of Masque, all the Daemons' characters are fairly good in a Codex that otherwise fairly sucks. SCs give CDs that extra oomph that they need.

Chaos Marines, not really. I see Typhus with stunning regularity. It allows people running mass Plague Marines to keep a not-terrible Comp Score that they'd get if they ran Lash-Princes. Because the army makes sense. "Oh, tons of Plague Marines, you're such a cheater! Oh, you're running Typhus? You're playing Death Guard then, that's cool. Have some Comp Points."
I've seen Abaddon used a few times. He's that good. I, myself, thought about running Lucius, but, I never got my CSM army off the ground.

Daemonhunters...No. Just...No. A regular Grand Master is way better than Sten. And Coteaz is too costly. And if you actually use his ability to take 15 Henchmen, he can't fit in a Chimera for mass-fail times.

Dark Eldar...They're all fairly amazing in their own way. Since I've never really talked about DE special characters, I'll do so now.

Asdrubael Vect is a Fast, Skimming Land Raider. With two Disintegrators and a Dark Lance (and two Splinter Pistols), as BS6. Sure, he's Open-Topped, but, he's still Armour 14.

Kruellagh the Vile has Saga of the Warrior Born. Watch her rack up lots of kills. As per the broken wording of 3rd Ed. Codecies, if she is accompanied by a Retinue, she is no longer an Independent Character, and so can't be targeted in Assault. Although, she is missing a key piece of Wargear that Archon's need; The Shadow Field.

Lelith is exactly what you want. For some reason, she is cheaper than an Archite with the exact same wargear. I see her used a lot with 'that Dark Eldar player', she also chooses what Combat Drugs she gets (although you can only choose one). The only thing she's missing is Plasma Grenades. Although if you pick Always Strike First for her Combat Drug there's no problem. She costs 90 points. The model is sweet.

A regular Archite, with the exact same wargear is 143 points. Comes with Plasma Grenades and the ability to take more than one Drug. For +50 Points. Seriously. That's the difference.

If you're taking Incubi, and not taking Drazhar, you fail. Spectacularly. The model is awesome. Even if you're not taking Incubi, every Dark Eldar player should have Drazhar in their collection.

Urien Rakarth automatically wounds with his attacks (suck it, Wraithlord). Pity his WS and I isn't that good for an Eldar SC. Although he does walk around with the Crucible of Malediction, which is helpful considering that psykers are all the rage these days. Then he runs around with super-Grotesques. Which are pretty cool.

Decapitator is fun like Ymgarl Genestealers are fun. Except that you don't need to place him in terrain. But, you can't put him in your opponent's DZ. He's an HQ choice though, which is weird these days for something that does what he does (Sly Marbo, Deathleaper), and should be an Elites choice. However, unlike Sly and 'Leaper, Decapitator can actually do things on the turn he's revealed.

Eldar have the Wonder Twins. They're better than the other HQ options you can take of the same calibre. So there's no reason not to take them.

Imperial Guard...Creeeeeeeed! I've seen Stracken used in specialised lists built around him. Marbo. Yes. Harker and Bastonne have been used well in my area.
I've also seen Pask being failingly used in Vanquishers. And expertly used in an Exterminator.

Necrons; Nightbringer...Wins! Deceiver is good too. But not quite as good as Nightbringer.

Orks; Grotsnik, Wazdakka and Zagstruk. And G*. Damn. Zogwort.

Tau, I don't see any SCs get used.

Tyranids; Swarmlord. I myself, will use the Parasite of Mortrex someday. Doom of Malan'tai stopped being used a lot when he got nerfed by the FAQ. He's still used, just not as often.

Witch Hunters; Both of them are pretty good. I see Celestine a few times. And there's a guy who has his Master of the Forge, a bunch of Dreadnoughts and Karamzov stomping around the field. It's quite a sight. And works pretty well.

To those places that don't allow Special Characters, I can only say that you should cry more and harden up. Use Comp Scores.

The only character that my area has even thought about banning was Zogwort.

Using more than one Special Character isn't exactly banned. But, you're going to get lots of...Unpleasantness directed towards yourself. And your Comp Score goes down the drain.


I'm pretty sure all 3rd ed. SC's are garbage, Stern is no exception.

Dark Eldar disagree. The Nightbringer disagrees. The Deciever convinces you that you are right, and continues to allow you to wallow in your misconception that benefits him. Celestine says 'whatever' and then her army of raging Sisters comes to kill you for Heresy.

[dsmiles]

Eldar have the Wonder Twins.

Wonder Twin powers, ACTIVATE!

(and this was all I got out of your entire post. sorry. :smalltongue:)

[Dinkyass]

Whoa. New thread already.

Anyway! So I've been informed that there is going to be a 500 point tournament with some modified rules in my area soon. Basically what was changed was we are only allowed to take the following:

0-1 HQ choices (Yes we can play without HQ choices)
1-3 Troop Choices
0-2 Elite Choices
0-2 Fast Attack Choices
0-2 Heavy Support Choices

Also, the following rules have been implemented:
1. No models with more than 2 wounds.
2. No units with an armor save of 2+.
3. No Special Characters
4. No Ordnance Weapons
5. Total Armor Value of vehicles must not go over 33.

As usual, I plan on fielding a Vanilla Space Marine army. Here is my current list:

Sternguard Veteran Squad x5 [125]
Sternguard Veteran Squad x5 with Power Fist[150]
Razorback with Assault Cannon [75]
Razorback with Assault Cannon [75]
Scouts with Sniper Rifles x5 [75]


The thing is, I'm going to be fighting a lot of MEQ lists, and I'm not sure if I'm properly equipped to deal with them. I've imagined quite a few lists such as a Space Wolves list with 2 squads of Long Fangs, or a Blood Angels list with 20 Assault Space Marines, some Power Fists and a Sanguinary Priest, things like that. Do you guys have any suggestions on whether I should change my list or on how I should deal with such lists if I come across them?:smallconfused:

[Ceridan]

Comp score?

[Razaele]

Comp score?

Where I'm from, those don't exist. :smallamused:

[Cheesegear]

Comp score?

Composition Score. Basically, is your army fair? If not, you start a tournament with less points than some whose list is fair. Not everyone uses them. I don't know why. It keeps things fair.

It's incredibly useful in competitive areas such as mine. A common phrase after a friendly game in my area is "How would you rate that list?"

[Razaele]

Composition Score. Basically, is your army fair? If not, you start a tournament with less points than some whose list is fair. Not everyone uses them. I don't know why. It keeps things fair.

I guess the idea never came to our country. :smalltongue: I've brought it up before, but all I got was a bunch of raised eyebrows and strange looks. :smallsigh:

[Cheesegear]

I guess the idea never came to our country. :smalltongue: I've brought it up before, but all I got was a bunch of raised eyebrows and strange looks. :smallsigh:

Maybe the thread title should change to

"Why do I have to re-write a Comp: 0 list?"

[Ninja Chocobo]

No it isn't. Because it's your opponent that decides who takes the wounds.

Not for Dangerous Terrain they don't. One in six isn't great, sure, but it's better than you'd get with any other weapon.

Daemonhunters...No. Just...No. A regular Grand Master is way better than Sten.

Explain how. Also, if nothing else he lets you take a second GK HQ. And thus a second GKT retinue.


Orks; Grotsnik, Wazdakka and Zagstruk. And G*. Damn. Zogwort.

Grotsnik isn't very good. Feel no Pain on a unit is nice, as is giving Meganobs invul saves. What is less nice is being led around by a Rhino or Landspeeder or similarly crappy vehicle.
Since it's not Rage, it can't be circumvented by getting in a transport.

[Incomp]

A regular grey knight grand master is waay better than Stern, because his profile is better (significantly, mind you) and the grand master is only slightly more expensive. That reroll ability Stern has...meh. It'll help, like having a master-crafted weapon helps; it's a benefit for sure, but I doubt that it would change the course of the game.

EDIT: As for comp scores, I'd never heard of them before reading this thread. They do sound like a pretty good idea, I have to say. However, my area isn't hyper-competitive.

[Cheesegear]

Not for Dangerous Terrain they don't. One in six isn't great, sure, but it's better than you'd get with any other weapon.

It's not better than a D-Cannon or Tempest Launcher. Or Fire Prisms.


Explain how. Also, if nothing else he lets you take a second GK HQ. And thus a second GKT retinue.

How is a Grand Master better than a Brother-Captain? Really? The numbers on the page say so.

Stern also doesn't have access to an Icon of the Just. Which is kind of important on a special character.

Anyway, you should already have two GKT squads. You really don't need a third. Especially if it's costing you an extra 120 points over normal to do so.


Grotsnik isn't very good. Feel no Pain on a unit is nice, as is giving Meganobs invul saves. What is less nice is being led around by a Rhino or Landspeeder or similarly crappy vehicle.

'Leading Around' a unit is harder to do than you think. Especially when the Ork opponent figures out what you're doing, and immediately sets the rest of army onto the task of busting that unit.

[Ceridan]

Maybe the thread title should change to

"Why do I have to re-write a Comp: 0 list?"

So how does the Comp score system work? I assume a Comp: 0 in the above is horrible broken, so what is the scale?

[Cheesegear]

So how does the Comp score system work? I assume a Comp: 0 in the above is horrible broken, so what is the scale?

There is no scale. That's what confuses a lot of people. It's a handicap, and it is directly proportional to everyone else. I can take the same list to any given tournament and be given anywhere between a 1 and 4. It all depends on how the TO and friends feel about my list in comparison to everyone else at the tournament.

There is no 'system' to define your Comp Score before your TO gives it to you.

Comp: 0 is a Forced Rewrite. You're not allowed in the tournament with your current list. There is no point in you showing up because you know that you will win.

[Ceridan]

There is no scale. That's what confuses a lot of people. It's a handicap, and it is directly proportional to everyone else. I can take the same list to any given tournament and be given anywhere between a 1 and 4. It all depends on how the TO and friends feel about my list in comparison to everyone else at the tournament.

Comp: 0 is a Forced Rewrite. You're not allowed in the tournament with your current list. There is no point in you showing up because you know that you will win.

Ah. So if I had a 4 list and played aginst your 1 list what would the handicap do? Is it something mechanical or is it that someone could just say; he beat me because I had a list that was crap?

Oh, and can you give an example of a Comp: 0 list, and where would that DE Wytch army you mentioned in one of your battle reports rate?

[Cheesegear]

Ah. So if I had a 4 list and played aginst your 1 list what would the handicap do? Is it something mechanical or is it that someone could just say; he beat me because I had a list that was crap?

No. That's not what it's for. It only counts at the end of the day.

I've said once or twice before, going into a tournament with a 'killer' list and coming out with all Major Victories is pretty easy. However, if some guy with a less-powerful list also gets all Major Victories, he ends up winning the day because he's actually a better general (or lucky) because he doesn't have a broken list.

Ultimately, Composition is an extra 1-10 points added on to your final score. And is used fairly often to determine final winners.


Oh, and can you give an example of a Comp: 0 list, and where would that DE Wytch army you mentioned in one of your battle reports rate?

Comp 0? 60 Scouts with Sniper Rifles earned me a Forced Rewrite...
The Wych Cult army has already been mentioned in one of my tournament-reports before with a Comp Score of 3.
That should give you an idea of just how awesome the Comp 1 and 2 lists were...

[Ceridan]

Ah, that make sense. So, can you give an example of a Comp: 0 list, and where would that DE Wytch army you mentioned in one of your battle reports rate?

[Ninja Chocobo]

It's not better than a D-Cannon or Tempest Launcher. Or Fire Prisms.

Better for picking out a character.

How is a Grand Master better than a Brother-Captain? Really? The numbers on the page say so.

A Grand Master is way better than a Brother-Captain, yes.
Stern however is only 1W and 1A behind the GM, for a non-trivial amount of points.


Stern also doesn't have access to an Icon of the Just. Which is kind of important on a special character.

Less important given his Retinue. Also given his re-rolls.


'Leading Around' a unit is harder to do than you think. Especially when the Ork opponent figures out what you're doing, and immediately sets the rest of army onto the task of busting that unit.

If they're on foot, they're only moving 6+d6" a turn, and they can only Assault after doing so one of those turns. If they're in a vehicle, it can be Stunned or Immobilised pretty easily. Leading them around with a single unit is hard, yes. But what happens if you drop an empty Drop Pod 11" behind them? They move, Assault, kill it, and are an extra 11-d6" away from your lines. It's pretty easy to manoeuvre in such a way that you're controlling the placement of the closest unit and the second-closest unit.
Also, they have to Assault a unit. Which means they have to disembark from a vehicle. And if they have to move to re-embark, they can't.

[Cheesegear]

But what happens if you drop an empty Drop Pod 11" behind them?

That's something I've never considered doing. I wasn't aware that you could even have empty Pods. However, now that I think about it, you can.

[Ninja Chocobo]

That's something I've never considered doing. I wasn't aware that you could even have empty Pods. However, now that I think about it, you can.

..Wasn't it you who was talking about having five Pods, two of which were empty, for the purposes of Drop Pod Assault?
..Maybe I've got you confused with our local power-gamer.

[Cheesegear]

..Wasn't it you who was talking about having five Pods, two of which were empty, for the purposes of Drop Pod Assault?

No, it wasn't. But thanks for the idea. But, I still need unit/s in my army capable of taking a Drop Pod as a Dedicated Transport in the first place. You can't take them on their own. And, considering that I like Bikes and Scouts...

Still, the Grotsnik-factor is kind of irrelavent. Since the question was 'Who uses Special Characters'. And my answer was that people in my area do. Not that I thought he was any good and somesuch.

Also, I believe the tactic is to let Grotsnik run around by himself, not to actually put him in a unit where he can wreck it. The only reason he gets taken is to get Invulnerable saves for anyone.

[Ninja Chocobo]

No, it wasn't. But thanks for the idea.

Also, if you drop it empty, you can get into it. The wording runs "Once the passengers have disembarked..."


Still, the Grotsnik-factor is kind of irrelavent. Since the question was 'Who uses Special Characters'. And my answer was that people in my area do. Not that I thought he was any good and somesuch.

Misunderstood you there, based on the fact you seemed to have opinions on other characters.


Also, I believe the tactic is to let Grotsnik run around by himself, not to actually put him in a unit where he can wreck it. The only reason he gets taken is to get Invulnerable saves for anyone.

Yeah, that's a much better idea.
Still, for his kill point and slot there's better things available.

On Stern's re-roll: The fact is, it's so very versatile. Reserves? Scatter? Terrain? Saves? Leadership? You can re-roll any of these, for any squad. The opponent gets a re-roll, too, but chances are the roll they use it on won't be half as critical.

[Cheesegear]

Also, if you drop it empty, you can get into it. The wording runs "Once the passengers have disembarked..."

Have you tried doing that? And did you get punched in the head?


Misunderstood you there, based on the fact you seemed to have opinions on other characters.

The opinions were pretty much why those characters got taken. I do talk to people about their army lists and find out why they take what they take.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Have you tried doing that? And did you get punched in the head?

I played Orks.
I mention it merely as an "Oh ho ho ho isn't RAW silly" point.

[Razaele]

Guys, could I please have an opinion on my 500 point army list?:smallsmile:

[lord_khaine]

Eldar have the Wonder Twins. They're better than the other HQ options you can take of the same calibre. So there's no reason not to take them.


Who are you talking about here?

[Kzickas]

Who are you talking about here?

I would assume one is elrad since a rerollable 3++ save, 3 wounds and the ability to kill any powerfists with mindwar is very nice

[lord_khaine]

I would assume one is elrad since a rerollable 3++ save, 3 wounds and the ability to kill any powerfists with mindwar is very nice

Ahh yeah, i was a bit unsure about if the wording on Mind War would allow it to pick out models from a unit.

[LCP]

You don't need statistics. You can surely, without fail, say that 'on average' a Khorne Berzerker will kick the crap out of a Kroot. It's simple numbers on a page, guys. 7 > 4. Everyone knows already.

That’s nowhere near as useful, though. Knowing “my unit stats are bigger than yours” does not quantify the kind of success you can expect.


'Average' dice rolls...Don't belong in 40K. Any decent statistician will tell you that normal distribution doesn't exist with samples under 30. Have you ever rolled 30 dice at once? Unless you're Orks, Guard or 'Nids, probably not. However, that's one of the reasons why good Guard and 'Nids list can consistently win. Because the dice will actually roll what the theory says.

Furthering this, a good statistician will tell you that samples sizes should be somewhere in the two to three hundred range...

Firstly – combat rolls aren’t normal distributions! Each individual set of rolls (to hit, to wound, to save) is a binomial distribution, and the final ‘success’ (i.e. unsaved wounds) distribution is what comes out of the end when you pass those three distributions through each other (which isn’t even binomial – check out the distribution I generated, it has an asymmetry due to the number of unsaved wounds having a lower-end cap at 0). Take your number of events (rolls) high enough, and sure, the binomial distributions will approximate normal distributions, but why would you want to do that?

The variance on a binomial distribution is given by np(1-p). For ten rolls, not thirty, assuming your success probability is 0.5 (i.e. needing a roll of 4+ for whatever you’re doing) that gives a standard deviation of ~1.6, which means you can expect your total number of successes to lie within ~1.6 of the expectation value with ~68% confidence. 68% confidence that your number of successes will lie between 4.4 and 6.6 - that’s far from useless. For rolls where you need a 3+ or a 2+, the spread is tighter still. Propagating these errors through the various stages of to hit, to wound and to save is more work than I’m prepared to do right now, and would probably increase them a bit, but it still gives the lie to your claim that dice quantities less than thirty are completely futile subjects for statistical analysis.

Also, I’d like to know where you read/heard these numbers of 30 and 200-300, since they are almost meaningless without context. When ‘any decent statistician’ was talking about whether a normal distribution ‘existed’ – were they talking about whether it could be called continuous to within a good approximation? Because that’s irrelevant to this discussion, it’s a quality of the normal distribution that doesn’t matter here. What kind of precision were they requiring in fulfilling the criteria of the distribution? A science or engineering context is probably going to be demanding orders of magnitude more accuracy than you require when you’re talking about casual gaming with dice. I’m currently on a summer placement at my uni’s Physics department, and if you applied the criteria for ‘good statistics’ from the experiment I’m running – looking at the statistical distribution of flaws on an optical fibre – you’d be demanding that math-hammer grant its users oracular superpowers. And that's not what we're after - math-hammer only has to be at the very shallow end of the accuracy pool to be useful in this very casual context.

So, yeah, [citation required]. My statistics are a bit rusty, so I might well have made a mistake, but if I have I’d be interested in hearing it.

[dsmiles]

There is no scale. That's what confuses a lot of people. It's a handicap, and it is directly proportional to everyone else. I can take the same list to any given tournament and be given anywhere between a 1 and 4. It all depends on how the TO and friends feel about my list in comparison to everyone else at the tournament.

There is no 'system' to define your Comp Score before your TO gives it to you.

Comp: 0 is a Forced Rewrite. You're not allowed in the tournament with your current list. There is no point in you showing up because you know that you will win.

This, I don't get. If it's entirely subjective how can it be a rule at wargame tournaments? (I can understand paintjob getting/losing you points - in a separate category. My paitjob has nothing to do with the playability of my army.) Seriously, a rules-legal list is a rules-legal list. If you don't know how to make an effective army list (like me) don't participate in tournaments (like me) until you do know how. It's like M:tG. A deck is a deck. If your deck sucks, you lose more than you win. It's a fact of life: Games are not fair. They favor the skilled, and there is no 'level playing field.' [/rant]

[† Dran †]

Maths hammer is a great way of using theory to prove that you should win. Play the game and I bet that you will still lose.

I can write a list that should be nigh unstoppable and that should win me every single match I play, but we use dice in this system and the dice gods are crazy creatures.

I don't need Citation to prove that im right, I know I am cause I've played so many games. I've seen a unit of hamminators die in one round of combat against grots. GROTS. Tell me how that happened? I've also seen a single warlock solo a unit of 10 assault marines and win.

Now im not going to argue that there's not an average to dice, but just because there is doesn't mean that in this game im going to get the average.

[Cheesegear]

Games are not fair. They favor the skilled, and there is no 'level playing field.'

40K does not favour the skilled. There is no skill in dice rolls. There is no skill in the ability to have more money than everyone else and the ability to buy six Land Raiders.

The internet, being what it is, now allows you to net-list like all get out. You post a list, and 'the internet' will change it for you. The internet will give you the best possible outcomes for your list. There is no skill in following others' opinions.

Ultimately, without composition scores, you end up having six out of the top eight lists being Space Wolves or Blood Angels, no-one should even bother turning up if they aren't a power-gaming git. And that's fine. That's what 'Ard Boyz tournaments exist for.

However, there's a line on how much of a complete douchebag you're allowed to be. And Composition Scores raise that line. Composition Scores want you to bring a different army to what people have already seen eight thousand times before. Composition Scores want the tournament to not be 'Space Wolves vs. Blood Angels, and other lists are just in the way'.

Composition Scores encourage diversity by fairness. Maybe you haven't read Page 2 of the rulebook? :smallwink:

[dsmiles]

However, there's a line on how much of a complete douchebag you're allowed to be. And Composition Scores raise that line.

*wiggles fingers*

This is not the line you're looking for.

[lord_khaine]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear
You don't need statistics. You can surely, without fail, say that 'on average' a Khorne Berzerker will kick the crap out of a Kroot. It's simple numbers on a page, guys. 7 > 4. Everyone knows already.

Statistisk become usefull though, when you are 4 berserkers and 9 Kroots, or when some of the stats are higher, while some are lower on the models you compare.

[Cheesegear]

Statistisk become useful though, when you are 4 berserkers and 9 Kroots, or when some of the stats are higher, while some are lower on the models you compare.

Yeah. Sure. But you can't actually use Statistics in the game. At least, you can't do in-depth calculations at the board, whether or not you should Assault if you've got 4 Berzerkers or 5. At the time, there's probably nothing else for the Berzerkers to do anyway, so they may as well Assault.

[crazedloon]

*snip*

Though it is valid to say a good list is easier to play than a poor list. Overpowered choices can make a bad player a mediocre one. I think its a fine line and only a great general will make any list (good or bad) perform to its best or better degree. Sure there is luck involved but there is the same luck that things go your way as things go against you so that has little to do with it.

I think the comp score is ridiculous because there is no hard fast rule about what list gets what comp score. It is arbitrary and based on the TOs opinion which may be wildly wrong about certain aspects of the game. Or ,even worse, the TO will favor certain players or lists because he/she prefers those player or lists.

As for the idea of net listing I think you are overrating the effectiveness of such a plot. The 6 of 8 torny you are referring to (at least I assume you are refering to the one I mentioned) actually had quite a few big names from all over the country, as it was one of the last GT qualifiers, including some "big internet celebs." These are the sort of guys who are listened to when people get their net advice, or straight copied for the uncreative. However they were not the guys who won. Indeed the top 2 places were taken by two players from my local store who have little to no internet presence and made their list the good ol fashioned way. I.E. they played with them and fine tuned them. Than they just played them well. These last two things are something you can not get from net listing. Indeed they are the most important part of the game IMHO. That is if you do not know how to use your list you will more than likely loose no matter what sort of cheese you have. If you make bad game decisions no matter what cheese you have you will loose. These two things can not be taken into consideration when you look at a list and award it a comp score.

A comp score is not an entirely bad idea (it has some rather good intentions) but I do not think it is the best way to go about it. Particularly becuase you can apparently win the tourny via wins but loose the whole thing becuase some guy thinks your list is too powerful or underestimated the power of other lists.

[LCP]

Yeah. Sure. But you can't actually use Statistics in the game. At least, you can't do in-depth calculations at the board, whether or not you should Assault if you've got 4 Berzerkers or 5. At the time, there's probably nothing else for the Berzerkers to do anyway, so they may as well Assault.

You can do the complex stuff pre-game. The basic maths is the same, you tend to just be permuting a few parameters: it's not difficult to get an idea for the usual kind of spread, and then just remember that in the context of quick and easy expectation value calculations. Plus, some tests are so ubiquitous (like Ld checks) that a single calculation can set you in good stead for every single subsequent game.

For example, probably the calculation that I did the most over my career as a gamer: 20-strong block of Saurus Warriors vs. a similar block of Dark Elf warriors.

11 attacks hit on 4s: 11/2 hits, round down to 5.
5 hits wound on 3s: 10/3 wounds, round down to three
3 wounds saved on 6s: 1/2 of a save, but I've already been conservative so I discard it. 3 Druchii bite the dust.

I can expect a ~20% spread within one standard deviation, which, rounding up, makes my result variable by 1 either way. So I can expect 2-4 Druchii to die with reasonable confidence; the chances of the result being more extreme in either direction are only ~30%, which means that the chances of the result being worse are only ~15% (maybe a little higher, since the distribution is slightly asymmetric).

That's exactly the mental arithmetic I'd do, written out: it takes about 20 seconds, tops.


Maths hammer is a great way of using theory to prove that you should win. Play the game and I bet that you will still lose.

Really? I'll bet that you'll win harder than you predicted pretty much just as often as you lose. Because that's how stats work. Everything else you said is just the reiteration of the trivial point that you can't expect the expectation value to come up on every single die. No-one's saying that.

[Wraith]

A Grand Master is way better than a Brother-Captain, yes.
Stern however is only 1W and 1A behind the GM, for a non-trivial amount of points.

Grand-Masters also come with a fully-powered Nemesis Force Weapon, whereas Stern lacks the 'Instant death' ability due to being a newbie :smalltongue: That's a 40pt piece of wargear compared to everyone else' 30pt Relic Blade, for free.
Grand Masters are also allowed to take Icon of the Just (an Iron Halo, by any other name, and therefore awesome) and Psy-bolts, as well as pick and choose his own Psychic Powers.

More importantly - and I have only just noticed this myself - but Grey Knight Grand Masters are Grey Knights, whereas Brother-Captain Stern is not.

Seriously, go look for yourself: He is named "Brother-Captain Stern of the Grey Knights", but under his rules he specifically lacks the "Grey Knight" mechanic which allows him to take advantage of things like Shrouding, Fearless, True Grit (!) and the Aegis. Common Sense is not RaW. :smallbiggrin:

But he's 4pts cheaper, so that's alright. :smalltongue:


Who are you talking about here?

Autarchs and Farseers, who can be tooled up to do the exact same task as either Special Character (albeit much more economically).

Admittedly in this case the Phoenix Lords are BETTER than a dedicated Autarch in terms of stats and (some of) their rules, but for what you're paying and what you're getting the Autarch is still really good.
I'd much rather take a "Striking Scorpion Autarch" and a couple more actual Scorpions than to just take Karandras after all, and that is saying something impressive when he is one of the better Phoenix Lords already.

[hamishspence]

Grand-Masters also come with a fully-powered Nemesis Force Weapon, whereas Stern lacks the 'Instant death' ability due to being a newbie :smalltongue: That's a 40pt piece of wargear compared to everyone else' 30pt Relic Blade, for free.

Are you sure about that? Last time I read the codex, I seem to recall it saying that he counts as a Grand Master for the purposes of his weapon being a Force weapon.

[Ninja Chocobo]

whereas Stern lacks the 'Instant death' ability due to being a newbie :smalltongue:

Guess again.


Grand Masters are also allowed to take Icon of the Just (an Iron Halo, by any other name, and therefore awesome) and Psy-bolts, as well as pick and choose his own Psychic Powers.

Pretty sure Holocaust and Hammerhand are the two best.


Seriously, go look for yourself: He is named "Brother-Captain Stern of the Grey Knights", but under his rules he specifically lacks the "Grey Knight" mechanic which allows him to take advantage of things like Shrouding, Fearless, True Grit (!) and the Aegis. Common Sense is not RaW. :smallbiggrin:

He's also in a squad that's got all that.


But he's 4pts cheaper, so that's alright. :smalltongue:

Try 44. 34, if you're not taking the Grimoire. Most don't I guess.


Autarchs and Farseers, who can be tooled up to do the exact same task as either Special Character (albeit much more economically).

You will not get a farseer as good as Eldrad for the points. He's pretty ridiculous.

[Cheesegear]

He is named "Brother-Captain Stern of the Grey Knights", but under his rules he specifically lacks the "Grey Knight" mechanic which allows him to take advantage of things like Shrouding, Fearless, True Grit (!) and the Aegis. Common Sense is not RaW. :smallbiggrin:

I had not picked up on that. Interesting. However, whenever he joins a GK unit, he would gain Fearless, as per the rules. As far as Shooting attacks are concerned, ICs can not be targeted, instead, the unit is. And a GK unit has Shrouding. Last, he's in Terminator Armour, he wouldn't benefit from True Grit even if he did have it. :smalltongue:

But, lack of Aegis kind of hurts. There are a few powers in the game that specifically target characters (Zogwort, Mind War*) that he'd have no resistance against.

Still, you shouldn't be taking Brother-Captains in the first place. Look at the Grand Master, just look at him. His ability to be tooled out in any way you want is what sells him. Especially the Icon of the Just. If you don't have Eternal Warrior, your invulnerable had better be amazing. And that's not mentioning the b0rked version of Psychic Hoods that GKs get.

Holocaust is good. Hammerhand not so much. I vastly prefer Word of the Emperor. Stern comes with Grimoire of True Names. You don't really need it. Pass.

For me, it's the statline of the Grand Master. Extra wounds and more attacks, considering you aren't Eternal Warrior, is always a plus. You need to do the maximum amount of damage in the short time that you have.

*Mind War is making a comeback in my area as one of the better Farseer powers, used similarly to Blood Boil (BA). Except that Mind War potentially rapes ICs and MCs in half.

Stern just isn't that good. The ability to give the wargear you actually want, and the statline, is what makes a Grand Master better. Wraith is right that Stern isn't that good. But his reasoning is flawed.

[hamishspence]

Since "Grey Knight Hero" is 0-1, you can't have two ordinary Grand Masters, or a Grand Master and an ordinary GKH.

You can have a Grand Master and a Stern though.

So, maybe, you might take Stern when you want two leader guys both with retinues?

[Penguinizer]

I'm curious, is it worth using Kharn in a CSM army? What I had in mind was: Him and berserkers in a land raider. Supported by some plague marines in Rhinos. Maybe a Dread or Defiler.

[Cheesegear]

So, maybe, you might take Stern when you want two leader guys both with retinues?

Pass. GKTs come stock with Brother-Captains, who also aren't bogged down with piles of useless Wargear.

Brother-Captain and two GKTs, 143 points. 3 Wounds, 8 Attacks, 3 Storm Bolters, etc. The same invulnerable save and everything. GKTs come stock as GKs, wheras Stern isn't, etc.

Unless you're using your Elite slots for something better than GKTs (!?), there's really no reason why you would need 2 for HQs.

Grand Master + GKTs, normal GKTs.
If you really need a third, more expensive group of GKTs, then sure, waste your points on Stern.

[Wraith]

Guess again.

Yeah, I realised that as soon as I got up and walked away from the keyboard. Still, if even just for fluff reasons, "Counts As" <<<< "Actually Is" :smallwink:


Pretty sure Holocaust and Hammerhand are the two best.

Truth be told, none of the Daemonhunters' Psychic Powers are very good - even the ones that still have a use and especially compared to Codex: Space Marines. The best of a poor bunch doesn't rank them very highly.
They're both very context-sensitive, Hammerhand in particular. Swapping your Nemesis Force Weapon for a Power Fist-without-the-Power might help crush a vehicle, but a lot of the time you'll get the same result by spamming s6 attacks at one (Land Raiders and Monolith aside, of course). No use against anything with a save of any kind, though.

And Holocaust... I have issues with anything that inflicts s5 hits on my own unit, armour save or otherwise. Why take the risk, when you've already used up your Good Luck on avoiding a Perils of the Warp test? :smalltongue:

(Because we all know that's how the dice work, right? They all have a pre-set limit of good and bad rolls, and the more you use up one then the more likely you'll get the other.... :smallbiggrin: )


He's also in a squad that's got all that.

True, but that just means that his Squad is awesome. He, individually, is not as good as an ordinary Grey Knight in the sense that they have all these special rules and he does not.

Remember how people complained about Mephiston, because he was a Blood Angels' character without the Blood Angels' defining traits, like Red Thirst and such? Blood Angels are a great army, marred by their special rules that randomly make them less controllable.
Stern approaches it from the other direction - the special rules he should have are GREAT, but he alone is without them. That makes him a poor special character because he is not powerful enough! :smalltongue:


You will not get a farseer as good as Eldrad for the points. He's pretty ridiculous.

No, but if all I want is a Psyker that will target other SC's and models carrying Heavy Weapons or to carry Runes in order to mess up my opponents' Psykers, a couple of ordinary Farseers are more than enough to get the join done at around half the price.

That's the point I'm trying to make - a lot of Special Characters are good, but I don't like to take them because they do too much and I'm paying a lot of points for abilities and equipment that I don't want to use, either because they're inappropriate for the Squad that they're traveling in or because they are not as effective against my opponents' army.

I realise that a lot of this is only my opinion and in reality I may well be better off taking a character that can do other things should my grand master plan fall apart.
But to me, characters and units are all tools that are there to perform their specific task and sending them at something else is reckless and inefficient - blame that on playing Eldar for 10 years, I guess :smallbiggrin:

[Winterwind]

If you're going that heavy on the armour, you might want to try adding Spirit Stones. Generally you won't want to reroll a 'stunned' result on the damage table with the holo-fields, but if your tanks are hit and unable to fire, you really, really want them to be able to move out of sight and not get hit again. Against many opponents, you're going to stand or fall by those fire prisms.Holo-fields do not allow to re-roll anyway - they force you to roll twice and you have to pick the lower result.

I figured that if something got close enough to my Fire Prisms to stun them, I'd be able to just slaughter it with the rest of my army before it got a second shot. But you're probably right; I'll try to get these Spirit Stones.


Winterwind: I'm not sure about the 2x10 Pathfinders. I'd probably drop them down to 2x5 and take some more psykery. Especially Fortune.I just realized I got Spirit Stones on the Farseer, but didn't buy him a second power. :smallbiggrin:
I have to admit, I kinda underestimated how many actually quite decent saves I do have in that army (and thus the value of Fortune). I'll make sure to get it.

Though I'd really rather keep the Pathfinders. I really like them conceptually... :smallfrown:


I'd also drop Tank Hunters from the Fire Dragons. You have nine Meltaguns, after all.Well, it's not that expensive, and it would help against bad luck. :smallwink:
Also, against Monoliths and heavy targets if I'm forced to shoot from a bigger distance for whatever reason (like, say, the Serpent being shot down or something like that).


I'm not sure where the Farseer is meant to go.I figured either the Rangers or the Fire Dragons. Though Wraith is absolutely right, putting him on a bike is infinitely superior, and I'm ashamed I didn't think of that (I kinda forgot that putting a Farseer on a bike does not immediately mean one has to build a Seer Council, which might be nice, but absolutely doesn't fit into the army points-wise).


Also, your list seems kinda...small. Especially for 2k.I'm... not really sure how I can help that. I'm reasonably sure I didn't screw up my math... :smallredface:


Sorry WW, I was digesting your list as I typed my previous post,but then forgot to respond proper as I was busy adding links to the OP. But since that other helpful Eldar Player won't step up, I suppose I could offer my thoughts.... :smalltongue::smalltongue:

You know damn well I meant you! ;)


In short, it looks good as a fairly balanced list that tries to fight all-comers, while preferring to do it with more Skimmers than not. You've made the right choice my Infiltrating the Scorpions instead of giving them a transport, despite it upsetting your overall theme, and although the two units of Pathfinders would be just fine as Rangers, I think I understand why you have gone all-out and upgraded them. Perhaps consider taking one Squad of Pathfinders and one of Rangers, which should give you enough points back to invest in more Jetbikes?To explain some of my reasoning here - as I said before, I always wanted to start an Eldar army some time, and my initial plan was to go for something Alaitoc-esque - I always liked Pathfinders from the first moment I read the codex (also, I'll freely admit, Cheesegear's love for sniper-scouts further encouraged me to try some snipers myself :smalltongue:).

On the other hand, I also always liked the looks of the Eldar vehicles. And since my CSM army is very infantry-focused, with few vehicles, I figured, why not do something different this time? Hence, Mech-list.

And finally I decided, hey, perhaps that's not incompatible. Hence, the above sniper+skimmer-list.

My next thought was, hey, if I already have infiltrating troops, why not make that another theme of the army and have even more infiltrating stuff, to further mess up the opponent's plans. Hence, Scorpions (rather than Banshees in a Serpent, as I had originally intended).

As for the Pathfinders being Pathfinders, rather than Rangers - I kinda think 5 points per model is a bargain, considering how much they gain. AP1 for one third, rather than one sixth of their shots, and 4+ cover turning into 2+ cover? I may be wrong, but getting four Pathfinders for the price of five Rangers seems totally worth it to me.

I'm wondering now if it wouldn't be best to somehow free up another 24 points and split the Pathfinders into three squads of 7 models each. Would allow better mission objective coverage, more flexibility, and lastly, more chances to pin targets...


I think you're also right to have two squads of 6 Jetbikes, because ultimately they're only T(4) with guardian Armour, and will be wiped out quickly in a smaller amount (see above regarding getting more!)
I agree that it's a shame you ran out of room for another Vyper, as I would really like to run some myself, but in a coin-toss between that and a Night Spinner I think we'd argue a lot and neither would be a particularly better choice than the other so you're not doing anything wrong there.Alrighty. :smallsmile:

About the Vypers - are Scatter Lasers the right choice on them, or would that army likely benefit more from some other weapon?


The only outright criticism that I would offer is that your Farseer looks lost on his own like that.
I'm assuming that he'd join one of the Pathfinder units and spam Doom all game, but you might also consider putting him on a Jetbike with a Singing Spear and running him with one of the Squads.
He can still Doom anything that needs it, but you'll also have a useful anti-tank unit should the need arise (and it very well might, since your only dedicated alternatives are the Fire Prisms, which aren't very efficient and yet are extremely big, attractive targets).You are absolutely right. That's infinitely better. :smallsmile:

Only, why a Singing Spear instead of a Wraithblade? Is giving up one attack really worth that shot?

...matter of fact, how does that shot even work? Is it a "wounds on 2+, S9 against vehicles" shot like its close combat capabilities, or just a "wounds everything on 4+", as S:X usually means? The codex (at least, the German one) is kinda unclear there, as it seems to talk only about how the Spear works in assault...

If the shot works the same way as it does in assault, I absolutely see why one would want to replace the Wraithblade, of course.

Also, wouldn't it make sense to get a Warlock (potentially also with a Singing Spear) for the other Jetbike-team, then? It would allow both teams to fulfill the same roles.


If I were going to make a Mech-List, it would look very different - I'd have a Seer Council-on-Jetbikes instead of Scorpions and probably a Squad of Shining Spears instead of the Fire Dragons - if you;re going to have Jetbikes, have LOTS of them, I say! - but as I said about your list would be the more balanced (and probably far more successful) one :smallsmile:Yay! :smallbiggrin:


I'm curious, is it worth using Kharn in a CSM army? What I had in mind was: Him and berserkers in a land raider. Supported by some plague marines in Rhinos. Maybe a Dread or Defiler.I'm somewhat doubtful about Kharn personally. Because, the way I see it, a regular undivided Chaos Lord with Daemon Weapon comes much cheaper, and, while perhaps not wounding everything on 2s, he's usually got more attacks. And he doesn't slaughter his own squad in the process.
Though, I guess if you play against lots of Monstrous Creatures frequently, Kharn might be worth it.

[Arcanoi]

I'm somewhat doubtful about Kharn personally. Because, the way I see it, a regular undivided Chaos Lord with Daemon Weapon comes much cheaper, and, while perhaps not wounding everything on 2s, he's usually got more attacks. And he doesn't slaughter his own squad in the process.
Though, I guess if you play against lots of Monstrous Creatures frequently, Kharn might be worth it.

Kharn hits on 2s. This is good, since just about nothing else does that in Close Combat. He's got WS7, so lots of stuff hits him on 5s. This is good, since his T4 3+/5++ save without Eternal Warrior is crap. He needs the charge to be worth his points, but he can give a nasty surprise to T3 and T4 models when 6 S6 I6 PW attacks roll in. Kharn is decent, and that's about it.

[lord_khaine]

I figured either the Rangers or the Fire Dragons. Though Wraith is absolutely right, putting him on a bike is infinitely superior, and I'm ashamed I didn't think of that (I kinda forgot that putting a Farseer on a bike does not immediately mean one has to build a Seer Council, which might be nice, but absolutely doesn't fit into the army points-wise).

What about leaving him inside a Waveserpent?

You mostly want him for his powers, and with the WS you can move him around the battlefield to where he is needet, while having the option of dropping a group of guidet Fire dragons to do some troubleshooting.

(with doom+guide being reverved for something really annoying, like huge angry Tyranids)

[Closet_Skeleton]

Though it is valid to say a good list is easier to play than a poor list.

Not always, at least not in games like fantasy warhammer that actually require tactics. A powerful empire list is very differant from an easy to use one, especially back in 6th edition.

[Tren]

Ignoring some of the more snide comments, lets address some points.


Yes it is. Thank you for that elucidating tidbit of wisdom. Your reasoning is sound, your rhetoric flawless. Truly, I've never seen the "nuh-uh!" argument used to such inspiring effect.


High Strength doesn't mean anything if you still get a save. That's a patently ridiculous statement. Are you saying you'll never fire at a unit unless you're going to ignore their armor saves? S6 is still quite important if it means you're wounding on a 2+. Given the proliferation of cover and 3++ saves in the game these days, volume of fire and forcing armor saves is often one of the best ways to deal units that have good saves. For all your argument that common sense is all you need to evaluate a unit's effectiveness, I wouldn't think I'd have to explain why wounding on a 2+ against most all infantry is better wounding on 3-6+.

Besides, the initial wounds from the blast isn't the main focus of the Nightspinner, it's the difficult and dangerous terrain tests.


At BS3, it doesn't really get that many Hits in the first place anyway. With twin-linked BS3, it's more accurate than most blast weapons out there, like the Demolisher Cannon or Battle Cannon. Unless you're going to suggest all blast weapons are categorically unreliable to the point of uselessness, I fail to see how the Nightspinner is worse off than most blast options.


If someone is throwing AP- weapons, then I'm laughing. If I'm not playing Space Marines, then the Night Spinner still allows for cover saves. If they're in area terrain, sure. If you're going to suggest that all of your opponent's models are always occupying area terrain, I'm calling shenanigans. With a 72'' barrage and a 12'' movement, it's rarely going to be an issue that there's not an exposed unit somewhere on the board to shoot at. And again, are you seriously suggesting that you'll never fire at unit if they've got a cover save?


As a Barrage weapon, it also causes Pinning, I'll give it that.
It can definitely be handy.




No it isn't. Because it's your opponent that decides who takes the wounds.

Not from a dangerous terrain test. The monofilament rule means the next time that unit moves every individual model has to take a dangerous terrain check, and has a 1/6 chance of taking a wound with no save.


D-Cannons. Also barrage. 3 of them for 150 points gives Multiple Barrage. They always wound on 2s (so could be equivalent to S6 most of the time). Are AP2, so will kill any and everything. Rending isn't an issue. And then on a 6, they get super-Rending causing Instant Death. The only thing that Night Spinners have over D-Cannons is range.

D-cannons are probably the best option for Support Weapons, but in general, Support Weapons are very easily killed, immobile, and probably overpriced. The D-cannon has 1/3 the range of the Spinner, can't relocate if necessary, and can fairly easily be wiped out by bolter fire. It is certainly more lethal than the Spinner, but they depend on the enemy coming to you, are fairly squishy, and doesn't have some of the suppressive utility of forcing difficult terrain checks.


A Dark Reaper Exarch with a Tempest Launcher on his own is better than a Night Spinner. Except that he's not on his own and has bodyguards to take wounds for him. For extra survivability.

That I'll agree to, but he's also a giant fire magnet. Any Marine player who has faced the exarch before will pull out all the stops to kill the Reapers and prevent them from removing an MEQ squad a turn. You're also talking ~150pt base for that setup, assuming you take a minimum-sized squad of 3 (not the best idea on a T3 unit, and you're talking 35pts for your ablative wounds there).

And to get the most bang for your buck on the Reaper exarch, he should really have a Fortune/Guide Seer backing him up. Even with BS5, the multiple barrage rules can hose you if you scatter bad enough on that first shot, and even a 3+ armor won't save you when most basic guns still wound you on a 3+. At this point you're talking a minimum of ~270pts and an HQ slot.

It'll absolutely kill MEQs like mad, but it costs a fair bit. It also won't make you any friends. People used to boycott my army if I had Dark Reapers in my list, to the point it's not worth fielding them anymore.


A Wraithlord takes dual Flamers, EML and Scatter Laser.

Very survivable, modest ranged firepower; not so great in a mobile, meched up list like mine that frequently plays the Reserves game. Also, more expensive.


Trip-War Walkers on Outflank with dual Scatter Lasers each.

Fantastic option. They're viable anti-armor, especially with the ability to outflank behind and nail back armor. They're fairly fragile though once they've outflanked. They're also more expensive, and generally speaking don't last very long if you deploy them regularly, meaning they'll tend to have fewer rounds of shooting due to outflanking.


FA 12 is not that tough. Especially if you're also not a Wave Serpent. Absolutely agreed, though the Nightspinner has the advantage of being able to stay out of Line of Sight if need be, and with a 72'' range can outrange many anti-AV options.


Maybe you could try three Fire Prisms.

I have in fact, and in my experience the third one often ends up that the third one is, well, a third wheel. As far as anti-tank goes, it's a less accurate lascannon. And as far as anti-infantry, the games I've played with it have proven the Nightspinner to be a better anti-infantry option between the base S6 large blast, and the subsequent Dangerous Terrain checks, in addition to also being pinning and causing difficult terrain.


S6, AP3 is way better than S6, AP-, Rending.
Also, Fire Prisms are BS4, not BS3.

Yes, in the same way that $20 is better than $10. Because you're talking twice the number of points and HS slots. Not to mention, being direct fire there's much more likely to be intervening terrain/models granting cover, which sort of diminishes the AP3. Though admittedly, being able to angle and shoot from either prism tends to ameliorates that a bit.




Asdrubael Vect is a Fast, Skimming Land Raider. With two Disintegrators and a Dark Lance (and two Splinter Pistols), as BS6. Sure, he's Open-Topped, but, he's still Armour 14.

While I love the model, the fluff, and pretty much everything about Vect, he's still 277pts and a powerfist will make short work of his AV11 in close combat.

[Cheesegear]

Not always, at least not in games like fantasy warhammer that actually require tactics. A powerful empire list is very differant from an easy to use one, especially back in 6th edition.

WH40K and WHFB are two completely different games. WHFB has staggeringly more tactics and strategy required to play it than WH40K. In 40K, you can pick up a very powerful army, despite knowing near-nothing about the game, and win.


That's a patently ridiculous statement. Are you saying you'll never fire at a unit unless you're going to ignore their armor saves? S6 is still quite important if it means you're wounding on a 2+. Given the proliferation of cover and 3++ saves in the game these days, volume of fire and forcing armor saves is often one of the best ways to deal units that have good saves.

One of the best. But not the best. The best way to get rid of cover saves is to ingore it. The best way to deny armour saves is to have good AP. Which a Dark Reaper Exarch does in spades.
D-Cannons, also wound on 2s, but, are AP2. Also likely to get one or two more hits than the Large Blast.


For all your argument that common sense is all you need to evaluate a unit's effectiveness, I wouldn't think I'd have to explain why wounding on a 2+ against most all infantry is better wounding on 3-6+.

D-Cannons. Trip-War Walkers with Star Cannons.
Nowhere did I say that 'wounding on 2+ was bad'. I said it was bad if your opponent still gets a save. D-Cannons don't allow saves. War Walkers with Star Cannons pump out 24 S6 shots.


Besides, the initial wounds from the blast isn't the main focus of the Nightspinner, it's the difficult and dangerous terrain tests.

Which isn't very good against a Mechanised List. Either they have Dozer Blades or are Skimmers.
And it isn't very good against a stand-and-shoot list who aren't likely to move very much.


I fail to see how the Nightspinner is worse off than most blast options.

Don't think I ever said it was. But, due to Leman Russes being AV14 on the front, and Lumbering Behemoth rule, as well as another bunch of weapons on it. A Leman Russ is better than a Nightspinner.


If they're in area terrain, sure. If you're going to suggest that all of your opponent's models are always occupying area terrain

Most of the time.


And again, are you seriously suggesting that you'll never fire at unit if they've got a cover save?

Pretty sure every single argument you've had so far has been a Straw Man. Because that's not what I said at all.


Not from a dangerous terrain test. The monofilament rule means the next time that unit moves every individual model has to take a dangerous terrain check, and has a 1/6 chance of taking a wound with no save.

*shrug* 1/6 isn't enough to rely on. At least, not if I have to pay points for it which could be better spent on something else.


It is certainly more lethal than the Spinner, but they depend on the enemy coming to you, are fairly squishy, and doesn't have some of the suppressive utility of forcing difficult terrain checks.

What's the rest of your army doing to allow your D-Cannons to get shot at?


And to get the most bang for your buck on the Reaper exarch, he should really have a Fortune/Guide Seer backing him up.

He should. But he doesn't. He doesn't need it. For optimal configuration, sure probably. But he doesn't need to be that good when he ignores cover at AP3. Whatever he does hit is dead.


Even with BS5, the multiple barrage rules can hose you if you scatter bad enough on that first shot,

Ready. Check this out. This is a Straw Man...
With BS5 and Multiple Barrage, it's more accurate than most blast weapons out there, like the Plasma Cannon or Frag Missiles. Unless you're going to suggest all Blast weapons are categorically unreliable to the point of uselessness, I fail to see how Dark Reapers is worse off than most blast options.


and even a 3+ armor won't save you when most basic guns still wound you on a 3+. At this point you're talking a minimum of ~270pts and an HQ slot.

No. You are. I'm not.


It also won't make you any friends. People used to boycott my army if I had Dark Reapers in my list, to the point it's not worth fielding them anymore.

I've said it once before, there are some people on this board who definitely play in a very wussy meta-game. Tell them to harden the f* up. Tell them to learn how to Alpha Strike dangerous units.


Very survivable, modest ranged firepower; not so great in a mobile, meched up list like mine that frequently plays the Reserves game.

Then use Outflanking War Walkers with Starcannons. Use Autarchs.


Absolutely agreed, though the Nightspinner has the advantage of being able to stay out of Line of Sight if need be, and with a 72'' range can outrange many anti-AV options.

Except then Scatters max distance due to not being able to see.


Not to mention, being direct fire there's much more likely to be intervening terrain/models granting cover, which sort of diminishes the AP3.

No it doesn't. It doesn't do anything of the sort. If a Marine is standing in 4, or 5+ cover, AP3 means he's forced to take cover saves, rather than 3+. There's a reason that Marines are a lot less reliant on cover than most armies. Because their armour is better than most cover saves.


While I love the model, the fluff, and pretty much everything about Vect, he's still 277pts and a powerfist will make short work of his AV11 in close combat.

How did you get your Fast, Skimmer vehicle that's dedicated to shooting the crap out of stuff into Assault?

[EleventhHour]

Don't think I ever said it was. But, due to Leman Russes being AV14 on the front, and Lumbering Behemoth rule, as well as another bunch of weapons on it. A Leman Russ is better than a Nightspinner.


To be fair, there aren't many tanks better than a Leman Russ (or nine.)

:smalltongue:

[Winterwind]

What about leaving him inside a Waveserpent?

You mostly want him for his powers, and with the WS you can move him around the battlefield to where he is needet, while having the option of dropping a group of guidet Fire dragons to do some troubleshooting.

(with doom+guide being reverved for something really annoying, like huge angry Tyranids)I forget - can I have an IC leave a unit by having that unit leave a transport without him, and can I have him rejoin the unit by having the unit get on the transport again? (Away from rule book)

If so, that would work, too, though I still think Wraith's variant is likely superior (as it turns an otherwise nice but ignorable unit into something far more dangerous).


@Tren: So, again, would you mind posting that list you are using? :smallwink:

[Cheesegear]

To be fair, there aren't many tanks better than a Leman Russ (or nine.)

Agreed.


@Tren: So, again, would you mind posting that list you are using? :smallwink:

Also, agreed. What makes the Night Spinner so useful in your list when just about every other Eldar player I know pretty much ignores it?

[MountainKing]

Is it able to make Dangerous Terrain extra dangerous? Or is there a limit to how many Dangerous Terrain checks a unit gets subjected to per piece of terrain?

If you can force more DT checks, that might make it more worthwhile...

[Incomp]

That's an interesting question. I don't have my rulebook with me, but I would assume a unit takes one dangerous terrain test for every piece of dangerous terrain it passes through. So if you dropped it on a unit that was already in dangerous terrain, I guess they would have to take two checks, with potentially nasty results.

But like I said, I'm not with my rulebook right now.

[IthilanorStPete]

I forget - can I have an IC leave a unit by having that unit leave a transport without him, and can I have him rejoin the unit by having the unit get on the transport again? (Away from rule book)


No on both counts - an IC has to join/leave a unit as part of his own movement.
EDIT: Corrected: See Keris Rain's post below.

[Winterwind]

Is it able to make Dangerous Terrain extra dangerous? Or is there a limit to how many Dangerous Terrain checks a unit gets subjected to per piece of terrain?

If you can force more DT checks, that might make it more worthwhile...If you are already in Dangerous Terrain, turning the Dangerous Terrain into Dangerous Terrain will not change anything. You roll just one test. At least, I'm pretty sure that's how it works (cannot check to be entirely certain - still away from rulebook). But, how often does one see Dangerous Terrain anyway (outside of jump troops, bikes, vehicles or such moving through regular terrain)?

Also, somebody said before in this thread that failed Dangerous Terrain tests allow no save. As I said, I'm away from my rulebook, but I'm fairly sure that's not entirely accurate - Invulnerable Saves still apply.


No on both counts - an IC has to oin/leave a unit as part of his own movement.Okay, thanks. That's what I thought.
In that case, keeping the Farseer in the Serpent at all times while dropping the Dragons when needed without him isn't going to work.

[MountainKing]

If you are already in Dangerous Terrain, turning the Dangerous Terrain into Dangerous Terrain will not change anything. You roll just one test. At least, I'm pretty sure that's how it works (cannot check to be entirely certain - still away from rulebook). But, how often does one see Dangerous Terrain anyway (outside of jump troops, bikes, vehicles or such moving through regular terrain)?

I'm totally unfamiliar with the Nightspinner; does it actually make the terrain Dangerous Terrain, or does it force the unit to make saves as if passing through Dangerous Terrain? If it's the latter, it could be said that it's not actually changing the terrain, it's just forcing the save.

[Keris]

I forget - can I have an IC leave a unit by having that unit leave a transport without him, and can I have him rejoin the unit by having the unit get on the transport again? (Away from rule book)
No on both counts - an IC has to oin/leave a unit as part of his own movement.
It's a yes on both counts, actually. Page 67 of the rulebook, the "Independent characters embarking and disembarking" section:
"If either an independent character or a unit is already in a vehicle, the other may join them by embarking too[...] They can also disembark separately by either the unit or the characters disembarking while the others remain onboard".

[Winterwind]

I'm totally unfamiliar with the Nightspinner; does it actually make the terrain Dangerous Terrain, or does it force the unit to make saves as if passing through Dangerous Terrain? If it's the latter, it could be said that it's not actually changing the terrain, it's just forcing the save.As far as I remember, it's formulated as "The next time the unit moves, it counts as if moving through Difficult and Dangerous Terrain".


It's a yes on both counts, actually. Page 67 of the rulebook, the "Independent characters embarking and disembarking" section:
"If either an independent character or a unit is already in a vehicle, the other may join them by embarking too[...] They can also disembark separately by either the unit or the characters disembarking while the others remain onboard".Oh, okay. In that case, it would work. :smallbiggrin:

...think I'll try doing the jetbike thing nonetheless though, if I can figure out a good-looking way to get a Farseer onto a Jetbike in the first place.

[IthilanorStPete]

It's a yes on both counts, actually. Page 67 of the rulebook, the "Independent characters embarking and disembarking" section:
"If either an independent character or a unit is already in a vehicle, the other may join them by embarking too[...] They can also disembark separately by either the unit or the characters disembarking while the others remain onboard".

...Huh. Never noticed that part!

[MountainKing]

As far as I remember, it's formulated as "The next time the unit moves, it counts as if moving through Difficult and Dangerous Terrain".


So... maybe? I don't have the Eldar codex, so I'm still as uninformed as I was when I asked the first question, but I would be inclined to say that if it doesn't actually change the terrain type for a turn, it's just forcing the save... so if the unit is already in Difficult Terrain, it would be taking two.

At the same time, that strikes me as cheesy and loopholey (and it's my perspective!), so I'm probably wrong.

[lord_khaine]

So... maybe? I don't have the Eldar codex, so I'm still as uninformed as I was when I asked the first question, but I would be inclined to say that if it doesn't actually change the terrain type for a turn, it's just forcing the save... so if the unit is already in Difficult Terrain, it would be taking two.


The Nightspinner isnt in the eldar codex, that might very well also explain why so few people are using it.


Also, agreed. What makes the Night Spinner so useful in your list when just about every other Eldar player I know pretty much ignores

The efford it would take to get a model they are not even sure would work?

[Cheesegear]

The effort it would take to get a model they are not even sure would work?

Proxies for a few games would tell you exactly how it works. If you've ever read anything I've ever written about the player-base in my area, you'd know that if a model was worth having, they'd have it. I've never seen a single person use it since it was released. Actually, Tren is the only person I have ever seen that likes it.

No-one I physically know - myself included - uses the Night Spinner. What makes it so important in Tren's list? What is the rest of his list?

Why on earth would you need a 72" range weapon (on top of a 12" move) outside of Apocalypse? I'm a Space Marine player, and I have never noticed not having more than 48" range. The Thunderfire Cannon is the only thing with 60" range, and even then it never moves, and I don't recall ever needing the 60" anyway. And, even then, I'm starting to ditch the TfC for more 48" range weapons...

[crazedloon]

If you've ever read anything I've ever written about the player-base in my area, you'd know that if a model was worth having, they'd have it.

.... That seems a little odd or self important. If you were to say "your area has players who have large collections which include all models and yet you never see it played," that would be reasonable. However to assume your area is full of the best gamers who are 100% of the time correct about model choices. Or that a model can be as good as another but becuase it is newer less people play it ,due to older models already being owned. reasonable but that your area is infallible is ridiculous.

I have seen it in use. Did not pay attention to the game as I was not in it and had my own to play. But I would say try it out and see how it works as it has some nice effect.

[Cheesegear]

If you were to say "your area has players who have large collections which include all models and yet you never see it played," that would be reasonable.

This would be part of it.


Or that a model can be as good as another but because it is newer less people play it, due to older models already being owned.

This doesn't really have anything to do with it. People bought the new Fire Prism kit like people will always buy new things. People are running the new Fire Prism kits, but not the Night Spinner. So, they clearly have the opportunity to make a Night Spinner, but are choosing not to.

...Because the Night Spinner is 'not that good'.


your area is infallible is ridiculous.

That's not what I said at all. I wish people would actually read what I write. And/or not Straw Man.

My area is hyper-competitive (even with Comp Scores in use). I know why my area doesn't use Night Spinners. Because AP- is crap. Pretty much on par with why people don't use the Leman Russ Punisher. Because counting things as Difficult and Dangerous Terrain is really only only effective if your opponent moves. Or isn't a vehicle that has a Dozer Blade or is a Skimmer than can pretty much ignore Difficult and Dangerous Terrain (why people don't use Tremor Shots of a TfC, or why 'not that many' people use Murderous Hurricane), because 72" range really isn't needed, because in 1500-2000 points you can afford pretty much anything else that will do the same job better, etc.

Never did I say, ever, that my area was infallible. I said that my area doesn't use it .

Then I went on to ask what makes it so good or intergral in [B]Tren's list. In fact, I was implying or suggesting that my area was missing something and that Tren might have a good idea that I've never seen before.


Please read what I write. Don't assume that I'm 'suggesting' or 'implying' something that I'm not when what I've said is clearly written. Pretty sure you guys know by now that if I'm thinking something, I'm going to say it. Shas'a pointed it out a long time ago as a negative quality.

[crazedloon]

I don't understand why you must use the strawman reference every-time someone disagrees with you. I never said that you said that you area was Infallible. I assume putting words in your mouth is what you mean by strawman.

What I did was make the simple translation of what you typed. My reference to what you typed is the reason I quoted you so I shall do it again and explain it in pieces so that we do not have any strawmen in the room :smallconfused:



If you've ever read anything I've ever written about the player-base in my area,

I presume this is intended to set a precedence of legitimacy of the claim or quality of players. However in all truth all I know about your local players is that you beat them a lot and they are anal retentive about models.


you'd know that if a model was worth having, they'd have it.


The logical next step is that any model they do not have is not worth having. There is no room ,in what you said, for there to be an error in your locals judgment since you are using it as a basis for the claim that the night spinner is bad.

this is an extreme I will admit but if you are of the opinion that the locals might be wrong, than do not use them as an example or reason not to take the nightspinner. Indeed your quote in context is not needed and proves nothing.

Perhaps what should have been said is that you have never seen one played, since no one has used one in your area, and therefor have no idea how it would play on the table.

edit: also it is really hard to reply to things when you edit nearly at the rate that people post.

[_Zoot_]

Ok, here goes!

I'm kinda new to 40K, (that is to say that I haven't played much and am not good with the rules) and I just wrote up this Imperial Guard Army list that I am thinking of entering in a 1500 point tournament. This is both the first tournament that I have been (or will be) in and the first proper list that I have written up.

If you be so kind as to look over the list and make sure that it is legal (as I may have missed something) and then give me any advice that you can think of as to how to improve it etc.

I did use the guides at the start of the tread (it needs a Guard one =P) and so I hope that the list is ok.

The List
Imperial Guard Army List


HQ

Company Command Squad -150
Company Commander, 4 x Verterans, Master of Ordanance, Officer of the Fleet
Regimental Standard, Vox-Caster, Carapace Armour


Elites

StormTroopers -117
Sergent, 6 x StormTroopers


Troops

Infantry Platoon

Platoon Command Squad -40
Platoon Commander, 4 x Guardsmen
Vox-Caster, 2 x Sniper Rifles

Infantry Squad -85
Sergent, 9 x Guardsmen, Commisar
Grenade Launcher, Vox-Caster
Commisar has Boltpistol, Powerfist and Carapace armour

Infantry Squad -75
Sergent, 7 x Guardsmen, Lasconnon (heavy Weapons team)
Vox-Caster

Heavy Weapons Squad -60
3 x Mortar

Infantry Platoon

Platoon Command Squad -35
Platoon Commander, 4 x Guardsmen
Vox-Caster

Infantry Squad -60
Sergent, 9 x Guardsmen
Grenade Launcher, Vox-Caster

Infantry Squad -55
Sergent, 9 x Guardsmen
Vox-Caster

Heavy Weapons Squad -65
3 x Autocannons


Fast Attack

Scout Sentinel Squadron -105
3 x Sentinels


Heavy Support

Leman Russ Main Battle Tank -195
Lasconnon, Dozer Blade, Extra armour, heavy bolter sponsons

Leman Russ Main Battle Tank -195
Lasconnon, Dozer Blade, Extra armour, heavy bolter sponsons

Leman Russ Executioner -260
Lasconnon, Extra armour, Plasma cannon sponsons



Total - 1497 points

If I have made any glaring mistakes then please tell me.

[Incomp]

I'd love to critique your list, Zoot, but my level of expertise with imperial guard is infinitesimal. So I will, because I like to hear myself talk type but the advice I give isn't to be relied on in this case.

Glancing over it, I don't see anything that looks illegal.

I will say your list looks...odd. Your units are asymmetrical (i.e. different squad sizes and varied upgrades with no logic my layman eyes can detect), which is not necessarily bad, but...it's ugly.

Ummm....I don't know how many guardsmen you can manage to throw out on the battlefield, but you have about 40 in this list. Those are gonna get torn apart almost instantly. T3, almost always no save...well, get 'em in cover as much as possible. Would it be possible (again, I do not know the codex.) to put the squads in chimeras? That would be a massive increase in survivability and mobility for the squads, and multilasers are decent weapons to boot. (Granted, chimeras ARE additional killpoints, but I try not to worry about such things :D)


Don't worry, I'm sure somebody who knows what they're talking about will speak up and tell me I'm wrong on multiple counts. That's just what happens.

[Arcanoi]

HQ
Company Command Squad -150
Company Commander, 4 x Verterans, Master of Ordanance, Officer of the Fleet
Regimental Standard, Vox-Caster, Carapace Armour


'Kay. I'd replace the Regimental Standard with a mortar/Missile launcher and a sniper rifle.



Elites
StormTroopers -117
Sergent, 6 x StormTroopers


A Stormtrooper unit like this is essentially worthless rubbish. Stormtroopers are not as good as they seem. AP3 is great, but only worth 3 times its weight in AP5. And you can get 3x as much AP5 for cheaper than this.



Troops
Platoon Command Squad -40
Platoon Commander, 4 x Guardsmen
Vox-Caster, 2 x Sniper Rifles

'Kay. Make it 3x Sniper Rifles.



Infantry Squad -85
Sergent, 9 x Guardsmen, Commisar
Grenade Launcher, Vox-Caster
Commisar has Boltpistol, Powerfist and Carapace armour

Commissars with Power Fists are rubbish. Give the squad a Lascannon or something.



Infantry Squad -75
Sergent, 9 x Guardsmen, Lascannon (heavy Weapons team)
Vox-Caster

Give the squad a Grenade launcher. Just cuz it has a Lascannon doesn't mean it won't end up shooting at other stuff.



Heavy Weapons Squad -60
3 x Mortar


Yes.



Platoon Command Squad -35
Platoon Commander, 4 x Guardsmen
Vox-Caster

Give it some Sniper Rifles.



Infantry Squad -60
Sergent, 9 x Guardsmen
Grenade Launcher, Vox-Caster

Needs a heavy weapon.



Infantry Squad -55
Sergent, 9 x Guardsmen
Vox-Caster

Needs Grenade Launcher and heavy weapon.



Heavy Weapons Squad -65
3 x Autocannons


Yes.



Fast Attack
Scout Sentinel Squadron -105
3 x Sentinels

Multilaser Sentinels will disappoint you.



Heavy Support

Leman Russ Main Battle Tank -195
Lascannon, Dozer Blade, Extra armour, heavy bolter sponsons

Leman Russ Main Battle Tank -195
Lasconnon, Dozer Blade, Extra armour, heavy bolter sponsons


Drop the Dozer Blade and Extra armour, exchange for Plasma sponsons or drop the sponsons entirely.



Leman Russ Executioner -260
Lasconnon, Extra armour, Plasma cannon sponsons


Looks good on paper, but look how much you're paying for it. Exchange for another MBT or some lascannon heavy weapon squads.

[Klose_the_Sith]

To add a bit of context to what Zoot posted, the tournament is not a competitive one, but a local one organised just for the fun of it. Which is only exacerbated by 4/6 games (IIRC) using non-standard formats.


I know why my area doesn't use Night Spinners. Because AP- is crap. Pretty much on par with why people don't use the Leman Russ Punisher.

Now this part just makes me curious. You so often speak out against AP - as nullifying the weapon, so why do you recommend giving shotguns to Scouts?

I've been wondering the benefits of shottie-scouts for a while, so I'm curious to hear what you say :smallsmile:

(Also, why the hell do my Scout Bikers have shotguns? They have twin-linked, relentless bolters. They gain NOTHING from Assault 2 Str 4 Ap - weapons ... I think.)

[DaedalusMkV]

Because AP- is crap. Pretty much on par with why people don't use the Leman Russ Punisher. Because counting things as Difficult and Dangerous Terrain is really only only effective if your opponent moves. Or isn't a vehicle that has a Dozer Blade or is a Skimmer than can pretty much ignore Difficult and Dangerous Terrain (why people don't use Tremor Shots of a TfC, or why 'not that many' people use Murderous Hurricane), because 72" range really isn't needed, because in 1500-2000 points you can afford pretty much anything else that will do the same job better, etc.
Not having so much as read the Night Spinner rules I'm not going into the rest of your post, but:
A: The Leman Russ Punisher sucks because Heavy 20 doesn't mean squat when you're still only BS3 and S5, while Blast templates still work perfectly at low BS and all have great S. Trust me, making it AP4 wouldn't make it worth taking (AP3 would, but that's a whole other ball game). There's a reason that the only tanks people take are Russes, Demolishers and to a lesser extent Eradicators unless Passk comes into play.
B: Difficult/Dangerous terrain is important to a varying degree based on your opponent. Shooty armies? They'll shrug it off, stand still and keep blasting. Orks, Tyranids or any other non-mech assault army? They get slowed down and lose 18% of your squad or lose a turn? Ouch. Doesn't hurt that AP- doesn't change much against either of those armies. Oh, and regarding skimmers, unless it's a Tau vehicle with Sensor Spines (an expensive and uncommonly used upgrade) it's still effected by DT if it starts or ends in terrain, so the Night Spinner would still affect it.
C: 72" range can be handy, though you're right in that it's basically irrelevant for a Fast Skimmer. Less mobile units can have difficulties even with a 48" range, god knows it's happened to my Lascannons and Autocannons before, though the extra 12" from movement puts you back in the "everything's in range" catagory. I'm certainly glad that my Broadsides are packing the full 72" range; I'd have a lot less choice when deploying them otherwise. Still, 60" is usually all you need.

Ok, here goes!

The List
Imperial Guard Army List


HQ

Company Command Squad -150
Company Commander, 4 x Verterans, Master of Ordanance, Officer of the Fleet
Regimental Standard, Vox-Caster, Carapace Armour


Elites

StormTroopers -117
Sergent, 6 x StormTroopers


Troops

Infantry Platoon

Platoon Command Squad -40
Platoon Commander, 4 x Guardsmen
Vox-Caster, 2 x Sniper Rifles

Infantry Squad -85
Sergent, 9 x Guardsmen, Commisar
Grenade Launcher, Vox-Caster
Commisar has Boltpistol, Powerfist and Carapace armour

Infantry Squad -75
Sergent, 7 x Guardsmen, Lasconnon (heavy Weapons team)
Vox-Caster

Heavy Weapons Squad -60
3 x Mortar

Infantry Platoon

Platoon Command Squad -35
Platoon Commander, 4 x Guardsmen
Vox-Caster

Infantry Squad -60
Sergent, 9 x Guardsmen
Grenade Launcher, Vox-Caster

Infantry Squad -55
Sergent, 9 x Guardsmen
Vox-Caster

Heavy Weapons Squad -65
3 x Autocannons


Fast Attack

Scout Sentinel Squadron -105
3 x Sentinels


Heavy Support

Leman Russ Main Battle Tank -195
Lasconnon, Dozer Blade, Extra armour, heavy bolter sponsons

Leman Russ Main Battle Tank -195
Lasconnon, Dozer Blade, Extra armour, heavy bolter sponsons

Leman Russ Executioner -260
Lasconnon, Extra armour, Plasma cannon sponsons



Total - 1497 points

If I have made any glaring mistakes then please tell me.

Command Squad: You've gone a little bit overboard here. While it's pretty decent overall, I'd reccomend dropping either the MoO or the MotF. The MotF is probably worse unless your metagame involves a hell of a lot of Reserves lists and outflankers.
Stormtroopers: I hate the new Stormtroopers with a burning passion, and yours serve no real purpose. IMO, the only ways to use these guys are as suicidal Tank Hunters with a pair of Meltaguns, using their Deep Strike reroll or a full squad in a Chimera using the Scout choice. Either way, they're almost certainly inferior point-for-point to Veterans with the Grenadiers doctrine.

Platoon 1: Your PCS is fine.
Your first Infantry Squad is illegal; Commissars can only have Power Fists when attached to a Platoon Command Squad or taken as a Commissar Lord. It sucks, but that's how it is. Also, there's no point to taking Commissars unless you plan to make use of the Combined Squads special rule; an excellent idea, but it doesn't seem to be what you're going for here.
Your second squad is meh. I prefer my Lascannons without a bunch of useless Lasguns standing around, so that I can make full use of the Bring it Down! Order. You'll likely find more success giving midrange or anti-infantry weapons such as Autocannons or Heavy Bolters on your infantry squads and making use of the First Rank Fire etc. Order.
Mortar squads kick ass. Good to see one in there. :smallbiggrin:

Platoon 2:
No upgrades on the PCS? Blech. Either toss a Power Fist on the Commander and give everyone else Laspistols and Chainswords or give them a Meltagun/Flamer/Grenade Launcher/Whatever quartet. It's too cheap not to, and nude squads don't do much.
Squad 1's fine, especially if you merge it with squad 2. Cheap and powerful with liberal application of the FRFSRG Order.
Autocannon Teams are also good, though I prefer to put my ACs in my Infantry squads since they fit well there. Still, nothing wrong here.

Fast Attack:
I occasionally use this setup myself. Cheap and reasonably killy, as well as capable of tying up PF-less Marines or any sort of Guard or non-MC Tyranids for a long, long time in assault. For the giggles, you can also toss them at Ork mobs and watch them explode like little manned timebombs, taking out dozens of Orks at a time. Moral of the story is, Multilaser-equipped Scout Sentinels are extremely versatile and very useful. That said, maybe split them up into a group of two and a loner, possibly giving the loner a Lascannon to make up for your weak AT.

Tanks: And now we come to the meat of the list.
Russ 1: Dozer Blade and Extra Armour are a waste. You should never have a reason to move your Russ into area terrain, even if you plan to move at all with a Sponson-equipped Russ, and that's fully 25 points a tank. Use the 50 points you save on giving more AT guns to your infantry. Remember that Leman Russes are first and foremost an anti-infantry platform though they can be decent at destroying tanks. Only aim for vehicles if the infantry targets run out or you're totally desperate.

Executioner: Check the points. Now compare them to a Demolisher with nothing but a Hull Lascannon, Extra Armour and a Heavy stubber. Now check them again. Now realise that a Demolisher Cannon is overall at least as good as an Executioner's plasma turret. Finally, switch to the Demolisher and save yourself 60(!) points and have a tank that's much more versatile and not much worse, and suffers no penalty when moving 6". Much better, right?
Sorry if that sounds like a lot of negative, and your army will do fine as written (with the removal of the illegal Power Fist), but there's a lot of small tweaks necessary in any first-time list.

[_Zoot_]

Ok, I have revised the list (not sure if it's any better, I think it is however):

The List 2.0
Imperial Guard Army List


HQ

Company Command Squad -150
Company Commander, 4 x Verterans, Master of Ordanance, Officer of the Fleet
Regimental Standard, Vox-Caster, Carapace Armour


Troops

Infantry Platoon 1

Platoon Command Squad -45
Platoon Commander, 4 x Guardsmen
Vox-Caster, 2 x Sniper Rifles

Infantry Squad 1 -70
Sergent, 7 x Guardsmen, Autocannon
Grenade Launcher, Vox-Caster


Infantry Squad 2 -85
Sergent, 7 x Guardsmen, Autocannon
Vox-Caster, plasma gun

Infantry Squad 3 -60
Sergent, 9 x Guardsmen
Vox-Caster, Grenade Launcher

Heavy Weapons Squad -60
3 x Mortar

Infantry Platoon 2

Platoon Command Squad -45
Platoon Commander, 4 x Guardsmen
Vox-Caster, 2 x Flamers

Infantry Squad 1 -70
Sergent, 7 x Guardsmen, Autocannon
Grenade Launcher, Vox-Caster

Infantry Squad 2 -70
Sergent, 7 x Guardsmen, Autocannon
Vox-Caster, Grenade launcher

Infantry Squad 3 -60
Sergent, 9 x Guardsmen
Vox-Caster, Grenade Launcher

Heavy Weapons Squad -75
3 x Lascannons


Fast Attack

Scout Sentinel Squadron -105
3 x Sentinels


Heavy Support

Leman Russ Main Battle Tank -170
Lasconnon, heavy bolter sponsons

Leman Russ Main Battle Tank -170
Lasconnon, heavy bolter sponsons

Leman Russ Executioner -245
Lasconnon, Plasma cannon sponsons



Total - 1480 points

I'm going to keep the executioner as I already own it (I bought most of the army off my brother, he had the tank) and I don't really want to spend even more money to buy a different tank.

If you have any comments then I would love to hear them! Also, suggestion for what to do with the last 20 points are welcome!

[SmartAlec]

Don't see the problem with the Nightspinner. Against armies with low armour forces (Orks, Tyranids, Imperial Guard, other Eldar) it's going to be reasonably effective. All other times, your opponent still can't ignore it because it's a fast, flying objective-contesting machine that can safely be hidden for most of the game without sacrificing much firepower.

[Elm11]

Hey Everyone :smallsmile:. I just managed to (hopefully) fix most of the issues with my unit list (tell me if i'm still screwing it up). I'm playing Tau in a 1500 point tournament, with a fairly small army currently, and several units i'd rather not field (they're marked inside). I intend to buy new models soon, to boost me up to 1500, so i'd love tips on what to get.




HQ:

1 Shas’o (165)
Weapon Systems: burst cannon, plasma rifle, missile pod
Support Systems: Shield Generator, Target lock, multi tracker
Wargear: Iridium Armour

1 Crisis Suit Shas’vre (95)
Weapons Systems: burst cannon, plasma rifle, missile pod
Support Systems: Targeting array, Target lock, multi tracker

*NOTE: I’m new to Tau and almost certain I can’t take this much stuff, but I think I’ve missed it in the Codex, please correct me.*

Elites:

Stealth Suit Team: (142)
2 XV25 Stealth suit Shas’ui (60)
1 XV25 Stealth suit Shas’Vre (40)
1 Fusion blaster
Targeting Arrays, Markerlight

Troops:

All fire warriors are equipped with pulse rifles

Tau Fire Team with Devilfish (235)
12 Fire Warrior Shas’la (110)
1 Fire Warrior Shas’ui (20)
Photon Grenades

Tau Fire Team: (140)
12 Fire Warrior Shas’la (110)
1 Fire Warrior Shas’ui (20)
Photon Grenades


Kroot Carnivore Squad:
12 Kroot Carnivores (84)

*NOTE: I want to get rid of these asap. I’m aware that they’re completely useless and I intend to get another fire team instead.*

Fast Attack:

Drone Squadron:
8 gun drones (96)

NOTE: I’m not convinced that these are useful. I discovered recently that all the left over drones I had from sets could be turned into a squad, so I did.

Heavy Support:

Broadside:

1 Broadside Battlesuit Shas’vre (95)
Support system: Targeting array
Wargear: hard wired multi Tracker

Hammerhead Gunship:

1 Hammerhead Gunship (185)
Railgun, Burst cannons
Wargear: Disruption pod, targeting array, multi tracker, target lock

Total Point Cost:

1227 Points.

I’m aiming for a 1500 point army, and as you can see, I’m still short some forces. Other than dropping the kroot, I’d love some suggestions as to what I should do with the remaining points, or modify in the current list.

This is my current thought on an improved list coming in at 1499 points :smallbiggrin:



HQ:

1 Shas’o (140)
Weapon Systems: burst cannon, plasma rifle, missile pod
Support Systems: multi tracker
Wargear: Iridium Armour

1 Crisis Suit Shas’vre (90)
Weapons Systems: burst cannon, plasma rifle, missile pod
Support Systems: Targeting array, multi tracker

Elites:

Stealth Suit Team: (142)
2 XV25 Stealth suit Shas’ui (60)
1 XV25 Stealth suit Shas’Vre (40)
1 Fusion blaster
Targeting Arrays, Markerlight

Stealth Suit Team: (142)
2 XV25 Stealth suit Shas’ui (60)
1 XV25 Stealth suit Shas’Vre (40)
1 Fusion blaster
Targeting Arrays, Markerlight

Troops:

All fire warriors are equipped with pulse rifles

Tau Fire Team with Devilfish (235)
12 Fire Warrior Shas’la (110)
1 Fire Warrior Shas’ui (20)
Photon Grenades

Tau Fire Team with Devilfish (235)
12 Fire Warrior Shas’la (110)
1 Fire Warrior Shas’ui (20)
Photon Grenades

Tau Fire Team with Devilfish (235)
12 Fire Warrior Shas’la (110)
1 Fire Warrior Shas’ui (20)
Photon Grenades

Heavy Support:

Broadside:

1 Broadside Battlesuit Shas’vre (95)
Support system: Targeting array
Wargear: hard wired multi Tracker

Hammerhead Gunship:

1 Hammerhead Gunship (185)
Railgun, Burst cannons
Wargear: Disruption pod, targeting array, multi tracker, target lock

Total Point Cost:

1499 Points.

Cheers,

Elm11

[SmartAlec]

All this is my opinion, but here goes...

I think maybe reducing the general and his bodyguard to only two weapons might be wise. Maybe dropping the burst cannon, things have gotten bad if you're actually close enough to the enemy to use it.

And speaking of suits... crisis teams! They are the heart and soul of a Tau army. They don't look like much, but with two full teams in your lineup, after having to endure 6 plasma rifle shots and 12 missile pod shots a turn without being able to shoot back will drive your opponent crazy.

I've found Stealth Suits have never worked for me. They're reasonably well protected against gunfire, but the problem is that to use their weapons, they usually end up being the only thing in range of the enemy army, so they get hammered either way. I'd take a crisis suit team any day.

I've found that the Codex actually describes effective Tau battle strategy pretty well. Stay mobile; hold no objectives until the last minute. Whittle down your opponent and then zip forward and lay down the pain once he's exposed. You outrange the majority of most static armies, so they'll be forced to move if they want to engage you. Getting that other Fire warrior squad another Devilfish can't hurt. However, if you want to have a stationary squad, fitting them with a markerlight and sticking a couple of seeker missiles to your vehicles could be fun.

Don't underestimate how annoying drone squadrons are. Try deep striking them. Getting them in the rear armour of vehicles and tanks and letting rip with that many S5 shots can get the occasional lucky hit. The look on your opponent's face if you take down a Leman Russ or something this way is worth it.

Above all, remember - playing Tau is about frustrating your opponent and denying him clear shots. They're probably the closest thing in 40K to a modern army.

[Cheesegear]

Now this part just makes me curious. You so often speak out against AP - as nullifying the weapon, so why do you recommend giving shotguns to Scouts?

I've been wondering the benefits of shottie-scouts for a while, so I'm curious to hear what you say :smallsmile:

Right, stay with me.
I don't necessarily endorse Shotgun Scouts. Keep in mind that I take units of 5 Scouts, in a Land Speeder Storm. Remember that. It's important. Keep in mind that I also don't take a lot of them.

Units of 10 Scouts, take Rifles, as Rifles in that number are actually effective.
Bolters? Please. Use Tactical Squads if that's what you want.

So, Combat Blades vs. Shotguns is what you're asking me, I guess. Although, actually, you have Shotguns and Bolt Pistols, so...

So, a Scout with a Combat Blade shoots a Bolt Pistol in his shooting phase, then Assaults with 3 Attacks, but, to do so, he needs to get out of his Land Speeder Storm. Now, on WS3, a Close Combat attack can be made better or worse by your opponent's Weapon Skill. There aren't too many things with WS2, so, you're always hitting on 4s or 5s. And, close combat attacks may as well be AP-. And, Assault attacks are also based from Initiative. You wont always go first. You could lose attacks.

Shotguns, however. Two S4 shots, with AP-. You're looking at ten shots. Or, you can shoot 5 Pistol shots at AP5. Against anything with better than 5+ armour, you're better off with Shotguns - you get more shots. Against armour 5 or worse, you're only just better off shooting 5 Bolt Pistols. However, you have a Shotgun and Bolt Pistol, so you can do whatever you want. Tactical Flexibility, see? Which Combat Scouts don't have.

Cover saves? Well, again, Pistols and Shotguns have the same strength, neither of them negate Cover Saves, but Shotguns have more shots.

Shotguns are the exact same strength and AP of your Assault attacks, but have a 12" range, and you don't have to get out of your Storm to do it. If you want, you can Assault for 2 Attacks each.

So...
Combat Blades; Bolt Pistol shot, 3 attacks if Assaulting.
Shotguns; Bolt Pistol or Shotgun shots, depending on situation. 2 Attacks if Assaulting.

Ultimately, due to Shotguns being just as good as close combat attacks, you've got four 'attacks' either way. Except 2 of those attacks are done at Initiative one billion (being Shooting attacks, your opponent doesn't get to attack back either), and have range.

Shotgun Scouts aren't so good in sustained Assaults. But, units of 5, Assaulting out of a Land Speeder Storm (Cerebrus Launchers), aren't for Sustained Assaults. They're Shock Troopers.

So...They have two 'attacks' at range. Then can Assault - if they want - for, ultimately, the same effectiveness as Combat Scouts. Except that Shotgun Scouts don't have to get out of their Storm - drive-by - and don't need to Assault if they don't want to, and still do what they're for. But they can Assault. Again, Tactical Flexibility.

If Combat Scouts aren't Assaulting, they're not doing their job. They have one role. Units of 5 Combat Scouts, also don't do very well if their Transport gets Destroyed.
If something is over 6" away (after movement)...Well, what are Combat Scouts going to do? Once again, Shotgun Scouts also have Bolt Pistols...So can do exactly the same thing, or not, and use Shotguns, if their opponent has better than 5+ armour or a cover save.

You also kind of need to take into account that in the army that I take Shotgun Scouts in, I'm taking 20-30 Sternguard. I don't really need Sniper Rifles. I'm also taking 10-20 Grey Knights. I don't need Combat Scouts.

Sniper Rifles > Shotguns > Combat Blades > Bolters.

Bolters would actually be better than Combat Blades if it wasn't for the fact that Tactical Squads didn't already do the same thing, better, for not that many points extra. And that you can Drop Pod Bolters (Tactical Squads/Sternguard) into Rapid Fire range on the first turn anyway.


Also, why the hell do my Scout Bikers have shotguns?

Because Matt Ward is a hack? Look at the fact that regular Space Marine Bikers also have Bolt Pistols...

[Trixie]

I assume putting words in your mouth is what you mean by strawman.

Strawman = setting argument only similar to what your opponent says then kicking it into the ground. I don't remember you doing this, though.



However in all truth all I know about your local players is that you beat them a lot and they are anal retentive about models.

This. By the way, first official model for Relic Blade just showed up. I wonder, will they say all models armed with it are now illegal, as was suggested before? :smallamused:


edit: also it is really hard to reply to things when you edit nearly at the rate that people post.

This. Sorry CG, can't you type your posts fully before you post them? You tend to edit them a few times, posting in pieces, which means no one will actually read it (as people rarely re-read old posts, especially when thread's moving fast). It's annoying, especially if you wrote something actually useful, and only by chance anyone ever sees it :smallfrown:

If there's something important you want to add, it's better to make new post, not double the old one.


I will say your list looks...odd. Your units are asymmetrical (i.e. different squad sizes and varied upgrades with no logic my layman eyes can detect), which is not necessarily bad, but...it's ugly.

It's called realism :smalltongue:


Kroot Carnivore Squad:
12 Kroot Carnivores (84)

*NOTE: I want to get rid of these asap. I’m aware that they’re completely useless and I intend to get another fire team instead.*

If you don't like Kroot, why not take Commander Farsight? You lose ability to field what you don't want, you gain some nice tricks :smallwink:

[Cheesegear]

Strawman = setting argument only similar to what your opponent says then kicking it into the ground.

"A Straw Man Argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position."

Such as "So you're saying...", "Are you implying...", and is often used by Reductio ad absurdum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum). Or, taking your defender's argument, and extending it to something ridiculous, but not always.

Basically, Straw Man is misrepresenting your opponent's arugment. Just as the above.
"If you don't like Night Spinners, then clearly you don't like Leman Russes..."


This. By the way, first official model for Relic Blade just showed up. I wonder, will they say all models armed with it are now illegal, as was suggested before? :smallamused:

Which model? :smallconfused:


This. Sorry CG, can't you type your posts fully before you post them? You tend to edit them a few times, posting in pieces, which means no one will actually read it (as people rarely re-read old posts, especially when thread's moving fast). It's annoying, especially if you wrote something actually useful, and only by chance anyone ever sees it :smallfrown:

I'm sorry that I remember something useful five minutes after posting. However, due to the forum's rules on double-posting, I have to wait until someone else posts. Which might be a while. Or not. In some cases.

[Trixie]

Such as "So you're saying...", "Are you implying...", and is often used by Reductio ad absurdum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum). Or, taking your defender's argument, and extending it to something ridiculous, but not always.

And this is different from what I said how? :smalltongue:


I'm sorry that I remember something useful five minutes after posting. However, due to the forum's rules on double-posting, I have to wait until someone else posts. Which might be a while. Or not. In some cases.

No one minds five minutes, but I remember I saw posts edited when they were already deep in the thread.

On a side note, that post about shotguns was the old CG people like. I used to wonder who would take them, but now, with that vehicle, I can see most of the point. One nitpick, though - you compare 1+3 attacks vs 2+2. On paper, it looks good, but shouldn't it be 1+3 vs [2+2 or 2], as you can drive them out of your assault range with enough wounds? Of course, driving people back can be good, too.

By the way, these "5 minutes" technically can be described as 'strawman' as well :smalltongue:

[onasuma]

Kroot Carnivore Squad:
12 Kroot Carnivores (84)

*NOTE: I want to get rid of these asap. I’m aware that they’re completely useless and I intend to get another fire team instead.*

This saddens me. Kroot are such a useful unit when used properly - a full squad standing in some trees become a cheap and very survivable firing line or can equally be used in very small units to speed bump off some of the bigger threats your army is likely to face. Add in some hounds and you're even getting some attacks in before many commonly used assualt troops.

[Cheesegear]

The Land Speeder Storm changes everything. :smallwink:

However, even with Combat Scouts, Shotguns are two Handed Weapons, you also don't lose anything at all by giving the Sergeant a Power Fist. It's why I also run;

Scouts (X)
Combat Blades
Sergeant; Power Fist and Shotgun

[QUOTE]One nitpick, though - you compare 1+3 attacks vs 2+2. On paper, it looks good, but shouldn't it be 1+3 vs [2+2 or 2], as you can drive them out of your assault range with enough wounds? Of course, driving people back can be good, too.

Sure, I guess. But that's not something you can really control. And you can drive them back with Bolt Pistol shots as well, so, null argument. Them's all the dice rolls. Them's the breaks you can get with any Assault unit. Especially when up against Combat Tacticsing Space Marines.

[Elm11]

This saddens me. Kroot are such a useful unit when used properly - a full squad standing in some trees become a cheap and very survivable firing line or can equally be used in very small units to speed bump off some of the bigger threats your army is likely to face. Add in some hounds and you're even getting some attacks in before many commonly used assualt troops.

That's fair enough, i suppose i worded that quite poorly. I should say, that rather than them being useless, i don't find a use for them in my playing style, which involves mobile firebases and diversionary tactics rather than static engagements or close combat. I'm also a poor player when it comes to kroot, so I'd rather not use them when there are firewarriors available instead.

[Trixie]

Now, you're taking not-editing too far. No one said anything about fixing obvious mistakes, eh? :smalltongue:


Sure, I guess. But that's not something you can really control. And you can drive them back with Bolt Pistol shots as well, so, null argument. Them's all the dice rolls. Them's the breaks you can get with any Assault unit. Especially when up against Combat Tacticsing Space Marines.

If the enemy unit ran after receiving 5 pistol shots, it wasn't a threat to begin with. Even with abnormal rolls, making anything run is pretty improbable. Hell, giving more than one wound is.

10 shots, though, have a good chance even with enemies more numerous than the scouts, unless you want to argue doubling the numbers doesn't affect outcomes much :smalltongue:

[SmartAlec]

One of the most effective Tau armies I ever saw was nothing but Crisis teams, Fire Warriors in Devilfish, and Hammerheads. It was like trying to fight smoke.

Edit: Just noticed the lack of drones for your battlesuits. They're very good! They're excellent stunt doubles or 'extra lives', and great ways to ensure that the occasional lucky lascannon shot or whatever someone gets on your suits means nothing.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Alright, had a 1250 Game v Blood Angels

What did I learn? Well, not that much ...

My Captain with Relic Blade ate something like three squads though, which was funny and he even almost forced a draw by Storm-Bolter sniping most of his objective squad. Plus his Sanguinary Guard were killed (except for the Fist-wielding Sergeant) by some scouts I infiltrated, further proving how bad SG are - 100 Points killing 215? That's a nasty point sink.

In the end I didn't have enough tanks and my power armour just failed me too much. There were a couple things that would've changed the game that didn't happen and I had some bad luck, but I think it was a worthy defeat. Blood Angels didn't traumatise me even if my loss looked bad (the survivors didn't reflect the reality of the game).

One last thought -

When a Vindicator, a Plasma Cannon, Two Plasma Rifles and ~10 Marines Rapid Firing doesn't manage to cleanse a single squad and you fail 5/6 Power Armour Saves in return? The dice have finally abandoned you.


Right, stay with me.
<Snip'd>

That was ... a very excellent summary. I'm still fond of my infiltrating Scouts with blades and a Power Fist, but there was some really, really good advice in that. Thanks Cheesegeary person :smallsmile:


Because Matt Ward is a hack? Look at the fact that regular Space Marine Bikers also have Bolt Pistols...

I'm guessing it's to represent the fluff, cause Bikers probably would carry side-arms. It's just fluff with no in-game point, I 'spose.

[Cheesegear]

That was ... a very excellent summary. I'm still fond of my infiltrating Scouts with blades and a Power Fist, but there was some really, really good advice in that.

Does the Sergeant have a Shotgun and Power Fist? :smalltongue:
An earlier post explains why.

[onasuma]

That's fair enough, i suppose i worded that quite poorly. I should say, that rather than them being useless, i don't find a use for them in my playing style, which involves mobile firebases and diversionary tactics rather than static engagements or close combat. I'm also a poor player when it comes to kroot, so I'd rather not use them when there are firewarriors available instead.

Yeah, I do find kroot work better with a static fire base, but i wouldnt recommend giving up on them as a whole so readily.

[Arcanoi]

If the enemy unit ran after receiving 5 pistol shots, it wasn't a threat to begin with. Even with abnormal rolls, making anything run is pretty improbable. Hell, giving more than one wound is.

10 shots, though, have a good chance even with enemies more numerous than the scouts, unless you want to argue doubling the numbers doesn't affect outcomes much :smalltongue:

Getting two wounds on a squad of Devastators or 3 on a squad of Guardsmen with Boltpistols isn't altogether too unlikely. Besides, killing too much of a unit isn't actually a bad thing, as far as I know. Other than Space Marines, there's a decent chance it won't rally, and either way it can't shoot heavy weapons.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Does the Sergeant have a Shotgun and Power Fist? :smalltongue:
An earlier post explains why.

I haven't modelled him as such, it's just the pistol :smalltongue:

Although I did want to give him the shotgun, but the power fist was on the wrong hand for the only good shottie I could give him (from a scout bike).

I'll probably give the next Scout Sergeant Power Fist + Shotgun.

[Cheesegear]

I'll probably give the next Scout Sergeant Power Fist + Shotgun.

PROTIP; Use the kickarse Shotgun-arm from the Scout Bikes. Use the pointy-Power Fist from the Assault Squad box.

[Razaele]

Ok, just got back from play testing my initial 500 point army. I got beaten so badly that it was just funny after a while.:smalltongue:

My first battle was against a Space Wolf player who brought a couple of Long Fang Squads and a squad of Blood Claws. On turn one both of my Razorbacks had magically transformed into craters, and my Sternguards were left with only the Blood Claws to shoot. I tried diving them into cover, but one of the squads got assaulted by the remains of the Blood Claws and the other just got blown to pieces by Krak Missiles. The Scouts had almost no effect on the game.

My second battle was against a Tyranid player who plans on bringing nothing but Genestealers. Again, I was massacred. I even tried deploying my Sternguards inside of the Razorbacks so they wouldn't be assaulted the moment the Genestealers came onto the board, but the sheer volume attacks that the Stealers were able to toss at my Razorbacks made the point almost moot. Sure, I was able to get a turn of shooting in, but a lot of them were still standing when the bolter shells stopped flying. Needless to say, my Sternguard Veterans were massacred. You could literally see the body parts flying a mile away. Again, the Scouts had almost no effect on the game.

I'm thinking of dropping the Razorbacks. Sure they're pretty powerful in their own right, but it just feels like I could be spending my points better. Maybe I can get myself another half-man squad of Sternguards and trick some of them out with maybe combi-plasmas or combi-meltas just to take care of light vehicles?:smallconfused: If anyone has any opinions on this, I'd really appreciate some feedback!:smallbiggrin:

[Winterwind]

I even tried deploying my Sternguards inside of the Razorbacks so they wouldn't be assaulted the moment the Genestealers came onto the board, but the sheer volume attacks that the Stealers were able to toss at my Razorbacks made the point almost moot.This line puzzles me. What size were those tables you were playing on? At that size of the game, you should have been playing on a 48"x48" table - the Genestealers should require some two turns of running towards you before they even reach you, and most definitely not be able to assault you the moment they come onto the board.

If you were playing on a smaller table, well... that just doesn't work. You might as well half the range of all your weapons and drop your armour saves to 5+ instead of 3+, and it would probably still be less weakening to your army than playing against a Genestealer-using Tyranid player on a table so small the Genestealers can pull off first turn assaults.

If, on the other hand, the reason they were able to do that was because you'd deployed so much at the sides of the table... well, never do that against Genestealers. :smallwink:

[Incomp]

Well, thing is, you were waiving force organization for those battles, yes? (Didn't sound like any of the armies were legal) The game is not really balanced that way.

[Winterwind]

So, I still have three questions from two pages ago that still remain unanswered. :smallwink:

1. What is generally speaking the best weapon to use on Vypers, respectively which weapons make sense on them and which are traps?
2. How does the shot of the Singing Spear work?
3. Is my thinking that the Pathfinder upgrade on Eldar Rangers is pretty much always worth it correct (and if not, why)?

[Lycan 01]

Let me take a look at your list, Zoot. I'm no expert with the Guard, but I have some experience with them, and Cheesegear pretty much taught me almost everything I'd need to know about them. :smalltongue:



HQ

Company Command Squad -150
Company Commander, 4 x Verterans, Master of Ordanance, Officer of the Fleet
Regimental Standard, Vox-Caster, Carapace Armour

Why no special or heavy weapons, like an Autocannon, Sniper Rifles, or Grenade Launchers? The Regimental Standard is only useful if your Command Squad gets involved in an Assault, which it shouldn't...


Troops

Infantry Platoon 1

Platoon Command Squad -45
Platoon Commander, 4 x Guardsmen
Vox-Caster, 2 x Sniper Rifles

Infantry Squad 1 -70
Sergent, 7 x Guardsmen, Autocannon
Grenade Launcher, Vox-Caster


Infantry Squad 2 -85
Sergent, 7 x Guardsmen, Autocannon
Vox-Caster, plasma gun

Infantry Squad 3 -60
Sergent, 9 x Guardsmen
Vox-Caster, Grenade Launcher

Heavy Weapons Squad -60
3 x Mortar

Looks good, though you could switch those grenade launchers for plasma guns. I'd personally suggest a Commissar with a power weapon. For a massive squad of 30 Guardsmen, that +1 Leadership and Summary Execution will reduce the chances of them breaking and running after the first round of losses (because Guardsmen drop like flies), and Stubborn + Power Weapon will come in soooo handy if your Guardsmen get assaulted.


Infantry Platoon 2

Platoon Command Squad -45
Platoon Commander, 4 x Guardsmen
Vox-Caster, 2 x Flamers

Infantry Squad 1 -70
Sergent, 7 x Guardsmen, Autocannon
Grenade Launcher, Vox-Caster

Infantry Squad 2 -70
Sergent, 7 x Guardsmen, Autocannon
Vox-Caster, Grenade launcher

Infantry Squad 3 -60
Sergent, 9 x Guardsmen
Vox-Caster, Grenade Launcher

Heavy Weapons Squad -75
3 x Lascannons

I'm confused. You have a squad of Lascannons, which are for heavily armored opponents and vehicles, but you've got grenade launchers and flamers on your troopers, which is for swarms and light-armored foes. This platoon is a mix of both sides of the spectrum - not a good idea. So what exactly are you going for?


Fast Attack

Scout Sentinel Squadron -105
3 x Sentinels

I've heard mixed things about Sentinels. You may be better off leaving them out and using the points for more Guardsmen or tanks. :smallconfused:


Heavy Support

Leman Russ Main Battle Tank -170
Lasconnon, heavy bolter sponsons

Leman Russ Main Battle Tank -170
Lasconnon, heavy bolter sponsons

Leman Russ Executioner -245
Lasconnon, Plasma cannon sponsons

Isn't an Executioner the one with a Plasma Cannon & lascannon sponsons, not vice versa? :smallconfused:


Total - 1480 points

For those last 20 points, I'd say switch out some of those grenade launchers for plasma guns, or getting Med-Kits for your command squads. Actually, do that. Medics give your command squads Feels No Pain. Your command squads being able to ignore wounds on 3+ is ALWAYS a good thing. :smallamused:

[Incomp]

A coupla things, Lycan.



Medics give your command squads Feels No Pain. Your command squads being able to ignore wounds on 3+ is ALWAYS a good thing


FNP is on a 4+.



Isn't an Executioner the one with a Plasma Cannon & lascannon sponsons, not vice versa?


No sir, IG tanks have hull-mounted lascannons and AFAIK either heavy bolters or plasma cannons for sponsons. The executioner has a triple plasma cannon turret if I recall correctly.

[IthilanorStPete]

Yeah, Executioner's main gun is a triple plasma cannon. Leman Russes have a hull-mounted heavy bolter by default that can be swapped for a heavy flamer or lascannon; sponson options are heavy bolters, heavy flamers, multi-meltas, or plasma cannons.

[Kzickas]

What's the best way to take out dark reapers as csm?

[Lycan 01]

My bad, away from Codex. :smalltongue: But still, my advice still stands. FNP is too important to pass up on a unit you need to keep your army running efficiently.


So last night I played a Capture and Hold game against my Space Marine buddy, and for the first time ever I wasn't able to knock out his Dreadnaught in the first turn. Ironically, we'd just discussed why I always did that, and he lamented that my fear of it had prevented him from ever getting to see how effective it actually was, or if it was a waste of points. Well, a few bad rolls later, he was able to see how effective it was on his turn.

Yeah. Turns out I was right to fear that Assault Cannon and Storm Bolter. :smallannoyed:

My army had a few power klaws and a killa kan, but they were too far away to be of any use. The Dreadnaught proceeded to ravage my shoota boyz, and then tangled my 'Ard Slugga Boyz in an assault for the whole game. I gave the Nob a 'Eavy Choppa, but he needed a 6 to actually get a Glancing Hit on that sucker. Yeah. For some reason, that stupid Nob never rolled a 6 on his damage. So charging the enemy objective fell to my Shoota Boyz, who actually did amazingly well even though they had nothing but shootas - no nobs or anything, since I expected them to just serve as a distraction.

On the flip side, it was awesome when my Warboss ate his Librarian. :smallamused:

The game ended on Round 6, my objective capped, his contested - Imperial Victory.

Oh, and his Dreadnaught punted my Killa Kan. XD

[Klose_the_Sith]

So, I'm contemplating a pretty weird unit choice for when I expand to 1750 ...

How does everyone feel about drop podding in a Chapter Master + Honour Guard? :smallamused:


PROTIP; Use the kickarse Shotgun-arm from the Scout Bikes. Use the pointy-Power Fist from the Assault Squad box.

I said I wanted to do that :smalltongue:

It's just that I'd already given out and painted the two Assault Squad power fists (one to a scout bike sergeant, funnily enough). So oh well.

[Arcanoi]

My army had a few power klaws and a killa kan, but they were too far away to be of any use. The Dreadnaught proceeded to ravage my shoota boyz, and then tangled my 'Ard Slugga Boyz in an assault for the whole game. I gave the Nob a 'Eavy Choppa, but he needed a 6 to actually get a Glancing Hit on that sucker. Yeah. For some reason, that stupid Nob never rolled a 6 on his damage. So charging the enemy objective fell to my Shoota Boyz, who actually did amazingly well even though they had nothing but shootas - no nobs or anything, since I expected them to just serve as a distraction.


Every Boyz mob needs a Nob with PKlaw. Nobs with Big Choppas only belong in Nob squads.

[Trixie]

So, I'm contemplating a pretty weird unit choice for when I expand to 1750 ...

How does everyone feel about drop podding in a Chapter Master + Honour Guard? :smallamused:

Unique CMs are better.

Plus, the problem with this, is, simply, that the HG is no Sternguard, it won't harm anyone bad with shooting. It is also no Vanguard, and won't assault out of the drop pod just as it lands.

So, you have this very expensive unit, with very weak shooting, especially if they have pistols, just under enemy guns. And, artificer armor will only take so much, seeing how it has no invulnerable save.

Is there something wrong with this plan? :smalltongue:

Now, if you drop them on the first turn, along with 2-3 more drop pods, it's different matter, but this requires Spear of Sicarus-like army.

[Incomp]

What's the best way to take out dark reapers as csm?

Never having fought Dark Reapers myself...I would guess a demolisher cannon shell, like so many other of 40k's problems.

Failing that, try Thousand Sons. With a 4+ invulnerable save they can take serious punishment, and AP 3 bolters oughta deal with those dark reapers and their silly little Space Elf toughness 3.

Assaulting them with berserkers, terminators, hell, even possessed oughta do. :D

Try summoning lesser daemons up the reapers' ass, via icon in rhino. Remember, lesser daemons of C:CSM CAN assault the turn they arrive.

Just some ideas.

REMEMBER: Tailoring your list is Not Cool.

EDIT: Klose, I would recommend razorbacking them instead, if that's possible.

[Razaele]

This line puzzles me. What size were those tables you were playing on? At that size of the game, you should have been playing on a 48"x48" table - the Genestealers should require some two turns of running towards you before they even reach you, and most definitely not be able to assault you the moment they come onto the board.

If you were playing on a smaller table, well... that just doesn't work. You might as well half the range of all your weapons and drop your armour saves to 5+ instead of 3+, and it would probably still be less weakening to your army than playing against a Genestealer-using Tyranid player on a table so small the Genestealers can pull off first turn assaults.

If, on the other hand, the reason they were able to do that was because you'd deployed so much at the sides of the table... well, never do that against Genestealers. :smallwink:
Yeah, that was actually my mistake. Sorry, it was my first time fighting a Tyranid army. I guess I would have done a lot more damage if I had deployed my army in the middle of the map, giving everyone another entire turn of shooting. But the thing is I was deploying first and I had no idea if he was infiltrating or outflanking. If I had put everyone in the middle, he could have infiltrated within 18' of my army, and if I remember correctly there was also some impassable terrain near the middle of the map which blocked LoS perfectly, which means he might have been able to infiltrate within 12'.


Well, thing is, you were waiving force organization for those battles, yes? (Didn't sound like any of the armies were legal) The game is not really balanced that way.
Yes we were. These are the rules for our 500 point tournament. And yes, I have noticed that there are balance issues when the force organization chart goes out the window.

0-1 HQ choices (Yes we can play without HQ choices)
1-3 Troop Choices
0-2 Elite Choices
0-2 Fast Attack Choices
0-2 Heavy Support Choices

Also, the following rules have been implemented:
1. No models with more than 2 wounds.
2. No units with an armor save of 2+.
3. No Special Characters
4. No Ordnance Weapons
5. Total Armor Value of vehicles must not go over 33.

On another note, is it just me or is it a little difficult playing a Space Marine army in really small point battles? I have a bad feeling that it really is just me, but I just want to make sure.:smallwink:

[Cheesegear]

1. What is generally speaking the best weapon to use on Vypers, respectively which weapons make sense on them and which are traps?

They're all pretty good, really.
It's a Fast vehicle. So, always try and make sure one of your weapons is S4 (or less). Broadly speaking, it's pretty much exactly the same as a Land Speeder. And I love those things.

For starters; Unless you're really strapped for points, always upgrade to that Shuriken Cannon. 10 points. Do it.

Eldar Missile Launcher and Shuriken Cannon is rather nice. It's what I run on Wave Serpents. As the EMLs are an S4 (Pinning) weapon, and occasionally, with it's speed, it can bust medium tanks on their side or rear armour. Due to EMLs being Pinning, and Shuriken Cannons being S6, this is better than a Land Speeder Typhoon. For less points.

Scatter Laser...Meh. Wave Serpents get them Twin-Linked, War Walkers run around with two of them. Again, upgrade to a Shuriken Cannon. One of Eldar's strengths is the ability to put of a lot of S6 weapons on the board. Due to the Scatter Laser's AP6 (and the fact that you can get them just about anywhere else), I prefer...

Dual Shuriken Cannons, for cheaper.

Starcannons, I'm not really a fan of at all. In fact, I'm not really a fan of AP2 weapons to begin with. As there aren't that many things in the game that walk around with 2+ armour. There's a few, but not many. Due to the fact that Vypers are pretty speedy, and get angles on vehicles like nobody's business, I'd probably prefer either of the above two for tank-hunting, for loads of S6 shots.
S7 is only good for AV13, which is Vindicators and Dakka-Preds. However, like I said, Vypers are maneuverable. You shouldn't ever have to shoot them in the front armour anyway.

Take Starcannons if you have to deal with Plague Marines or Terminators. As everything else, being S6, and therefore double T3, will ignore FNP on those Imperial Guard Command Squads and whatnot.

(You guys did know that FNP doesn't work against weapons that cause Instant Death, right?)

Bright Lance. I can see why you'd want to put a BL on a Vyper. But, you're getting pretty expensive there. It's not exactly a trap, per se. It's just expensive. Wave Serpents get them Twin-Linked. Wraithlords can take them, giving them something to do while they walk up the field, etc.
And, again, due to the Vyper's maneuverability, you shouldn't really be shooting at any armour value over 12 anyway...


How does the shot of the Singing Spear work?

...I think Page 27 explains it pretty well...


Is my thinking that the Pathfinder upgrade on Eldar Rangers is pretty much always worth it correct (and if not, why)?

Yes and no.
They're very, very good when used correctly. But, 24 points a model puts them on the same footing as Grey Knights and some of those Chaos Marine units.

At 24 points each, you can't exactly spam them like you can with Space Marine Scouts, since they're nowhere near as durable as Space Marines. So you tend to only have one, maybe two units of them. If you use them wisely, they're pretty great. Don't use them for shooting vehicles. It's a huge waste of Infantry-killing potential.

Space Marine Scouts are different, as they get Missile Launchers, and aren't quite as killy against Infantry as Pathfinders are.

Pathfinders are also super-duper reliant on their cover save. There are a bunch of things that can negate this. Some of them can even Alpha Strike.
(Ironclad Ozai springs to mind...)


How does everyone feel about drop podding in a Chapter Master + Honour Guard? :smallamused:

*Breathes through teeth*
Not the best. One of the better things a Chapter Master can do, is lay down an Orbital on the first turn. If you're running him in a Drop Pod, you'll need to give him Terminator Armour for Relentless if you're doing that. However, I have mentioned this before (specifically when talking about Pedro though), when you drop into your opponent's DZ, then follow that with an Orbital, keep in mind that it will Scatter the maximum distance. You can end up hitting your own units, and Orbitals turn infantry squads into paste.

[B]Trixie is correct; Honour Guard are not Sternguard, and they're not Vangaurd, and they don't get FNP like a normal Command Squad either. A decent Honour Guard also costs a lot of points. You'll also notice that a regular Command Squad can take pretty much anything they want that isn't a Relic Blade.

Marneus Calgar is the bomb. Seriously. He has five attacks since he's got dual Power Fists. And he re-rolls To Wound. God of War is the best. No. Seriously. You thought Combat Tactics was broken? God of War breaks Combat Tactics even further.

...I don't use Calgar for the sole reason that he's a Land Raider. Lysander is only slightly worse for a lot less points.

...Great. Now I want to run Lysander and Calgar in the same list. Thanks a lot.

Pedro...You don't need Honour Guard. He's a Chapter Banner unto himself. And if you're running Pedro and paying points for Honour Guard, it means you're not paying points on Sternguard.


I've got another BatRep to write up. It's a 1750 game, so it's a big'un. It's against that Tyranid player that I played the other week. Since he cheated (didn't know the rules of of his own list) last time, we had a rematch.

[Razaele]

...Great. Now I want to run Lysander and Calgar in the same list. Thanks a lot.


Wouldn't that mean that Calgar would no longer be able to use God of War?:smallconfused:

[Cheesegear]

Wouldn't that mean that Calgar would no longer be able to use God of War?:smallconfused:

Actually, it would. Since God of War is not a 'second' Chapter Tactics. :smallfrown:

[Razaele]

Awww. Would've been cool too.:smallfrown:

[Cheesegear]

Awww. Would've been cool too.:smallfrown:

Hmm...It seems that Calgar doesn't synergise with any of the other characters. Like, at all. He doesn't even work that well with Sicarius since God of War makes 'everyone is Ld10' useless.

The best combos are still;
Sicarius and Pedro/Lysander
Pedro and Lysander
Tigurius and Kor'Sarro (This one isn't even that good either, but it's still better than most)

[Lycan 01]

Every Boyz mob needs a Nob with PKlaw. Nobs with Big Choppas only belong in Nob squads.

Didn't have a spare PK model. :smallsigh:



So my Space Marine buddy and me are working on a bit of a deal. He wants my Tau Firewarriors, simply for the sake of modelling and painting. But I need them to make Stormtroopers, so my Daemonhunter army will have troops choices. So, we're discussing him buying me a unit of X value for me, in exchange for me giving him the Tau kit. Naturally, I'd love some Grey Knights, but those are crazy expensive. So, we're pondering a space marine kit I could do some conversion work with...

So what kit would be the easiest to make Grey Knights from? The Dark Angels Conversion Kit, with is mostly robed space marines but I know it comes with about 4 power weapons and lots of religeous-y bits? The Dark Templars Conversion Kit, which I don't know the total contents of? Or just a standard Space Marine Kit? :smallconfused:

I've got a handful of spare bolters to make Storm Bolters with, and at least 4 spare power swords. So conversion work, as far as weapons go, shouldn't be too crazy hard...

[DranWork]

you want the bt box, has the Errant helms in it for easy conversion. Plus chains robes and all the like are great.

[Lycan 01]

How many power weapons does it have? Or at least weapons that can be counted as Force Weapons in some context... And are their any arms that are posed like the their pointing out and/or firing a bolter one-handed? Those would make my job so much easier. :smalltongue:

Though I suppose I could ravage the massive pile of Chaos Marine bits my bro has, and steal some bolt pistol arms for that purpose. :smallconfused:

[Cheesegear]

So what kit would be the easiest to make Grey Knights from?

Didn't we already discuss this, like three times now? :smallconfused:

I made my GKs out of the Command Squad box, and the Black Templar upgrade box. That gets you five chest-pieces with raised gorgets to get the errant-armour style. And it also gets you five 'knight' heads.

Although, making knight heads is easy with a knife and drill. Maybe some green stuff. And raised gorgets can be made out of Plasticard very easily.


The Dark Angels Conversion Kit, with is mostly robed space marines but I know it comes with about 4 power weapons and lots of religeous-y bits?

It comes with one, or two Power Swords, although I think of those is a Terminator Power Weapon. Or it comes with three. I can't remember. I'll have to go digging in my bitz box. Except I think half of those Power Weapons come from the Ravenwing sprues...

And it comes with a Power Maul.
So, 3-4 Power Weapons of varying shapes. One of which belongs on a Terminator.


The Dark Templars Conversion Kit, which I don't know the total contents of?

Four. Two swords, two axes, and two Power Fists as well. But, the BT sprues don't come with legs. The Command Squad box that you should also get will give you a fifth Power Weapon.


The best thing I've seen though, is using the straight parts of paperclips (http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=34406). Or you can just straight-up Mail Order in some Halberds.

[Mr Chief]

Hey guys, iv been having trouble beating my elder friend. Iv got a squad of eight nob bikers led by a warboss on a bike, supported by some battlewagon and trukk boys. The trouble arises when the farseer starts using his psychic powers, he mind wars my painboy, which always kills him then proceeds to bladestorm and fire prism the squad to death. What should I use to beat him, we usually play 1000-1500 point games.

[Lycan 01]

@ Cheesegear: Sorry, I have the memory capabilities of a dead elephant. :smalltongue:

Sounds like the BT's are a good investment, or at least they would be... if they had legs. How can they be 30 bucks and not come with something as basic as legs?! :smalleek:

Though those paper clip conversions look quite good, and some of them are just plain awesome. Maybe a regular SM kit + paperclips would be a better, and cheaper, option. Though there'd be no official "knight" helmets. I suppose some greenstuff could solve that problem...

I'd love to do the whole "BT + Command Squad" plan, but I DOUBT my buddy is willing to pay more than 30 bucks for this deal. :smalltongue:



@ Chief: Do you Biker Nobs have a Painboy? :smallconfused:

[Cheesegear]

Though there'd be no official "knight" helmets. I suppose some greenstuff could solve that problem...

This works on Power Armour helmets too (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/USABOB/40K/GKTHelmetTutorial.jpg).


@ Chief: Do you Biker Nobs have a Painboy? :smallconfused:

They do. And the Farseer Mind Wars it. The only way to get out of Mind War is to be in Assault. Failing that, you use Zogwort on his Farseer.

[Lycan 01]

Oh, I misread that as him have a Weirdboy... :smallredface:

[Klose_the_Sith]

Heh, yeah. Didn't think it'd go too well - just the idea of an assault oriented wtf squad DS'ing in on turn 1 kind of amused me.

Plus I was considering synergising it with some sniper scouts - pin down an expensive unit, then cleanse them with a turn 2 assault. Ah well, I suppose I'll just have to do something else crazy.

5 Drop-Podding Ironclads
2 Chaplains leading Assault Scouts in 750
Drop-Podding Honour Guard
Drop Podding Thunderfire? :smalltongue:

[Cheesegear]

Drop Podding Thunderfire? :smalltongue:

Is terrible. Artillery can't fire if they move (i.e; Disembark from a Transport). :smallwink:

[Klose_the_Sith]

Is terrible. Artillery can't fire if they move (i.e; Disembark from a Transport). :smallwink:

You'd almost think I wasn't being serious :smallwink:

EDIT: Might as well make this post a little less pointless

1500 List, as it stands

HQ

Chaplain 125
Jump Pack, Digital Weapons

Troops

Tactical Squad (10) 230
Meltagun, Plasma Cannon
Sergeant w/Power Sword
+ Rhino

Tactical Squad (10) 225
Meltagun, Missile Launcher
Sergeant w/Power Sword
+ Rhino

Tactical Squad (10) 190
Plasma Rifle, Lascannon
Sergeant w/Bolter

Scout Squad (5) 100
Combat Blades, Sergeant w/Power Fist

Fast Attack

Scout Bike Squad (4) 145
Astartes Grenade Launchers
Sergeant w/Power Fist

Assault Squad (10) 235
Flamers; Sergeant w/Power Fist

Heavy Support

Vindicator 125
Siege Shield

Vindicator 125
Siege Shield

My Assault Squad are always kind of 50/50 as to whether or not they perform, so I'm thinking of dropping them for Hammernators and upgrading my Chaplain to a Captain, then running the two as a group. (Yes, footslogging. So nyeah.)

The problem with that is it takes a fair chunk of manoeuvrable bite out of my list and that when my Assault Squad does perform it's often spectacular. So I'm thinking of keeping them and just enjoying inconsistency.

I'm also considering maybe chucking fists on the Tactical Squads, just as a way of spending left-over points if I get them. But my swords did well v Blood Angels, so I'm not overly stressed about the change.

[Cheesegear]

My Assault Squad are always kind of 50/50 as to whether or not they perform, so I'm thinking of dropping them for Hammernators and upgrading my Chaplain to a Captain, then running the two as a group. (Yes, footslogging. So nyeah.)

From what I can see, I'm not quite sure what the Scout Bikes are bringing to the table. And you should be really running squads of 10 Combat Scouts, instead of a unit of 5. As it stands though, you could probably drop the Scout Bikes for a Land Speeder Storm, then use whatever points you have left to upgrade your Chaplain to Shrike.

Infiltrating Assault Squads will be Assaulting on the first turn. The Fleet, combined with the Land Speeder Storm, as well as the <24" Scout move will have your Scouts Assaulting on the first turn as well.

[Klose_the_Sith]

From what I can see, I'm not quite sure what the Scout Bikes are bringing to the table. And you should be really running squads of 10 Combat Scouts, instead of a unit of 5. As it stands though, you could probably drop the Scout Bikes for a Land Speeder Storm, then use whatever points you have left to upgrade your Chaplain to Shrike.

Infiltrating Assault Squads will be Assaulting on the first turn. The Fleet, combined with the Land Speeder Storm, as well as the <24" Scout move will have your Scouts Assaulting on the first turn as well.

The Scout Bikes are generally pretty good at peppering vulnerable units and throwing an opponents lines into disarray (seeing as they can start virtually anywhere they want), which can be very useful when it leads to your opponent fighting on two fronts and over-stretching himself.

I'll consider the Storm + Shrike, though. Once again you've said something I wasn't sure of, then followed it up with really good advice on how to re-shape my list :smallwink:

[Winterwind]

They're all pretty good, really.

*elaboration on weapons*Alright, thank you. That was highly helpful. :smallsmile:


It's a Fast vehicle. So, always try and make sure one of your weapons is S4 (or less). [...]

For starters; Unless you're really strapped for points, always upgrade to that Shuriken Cannon. 10 points. Do it.Aren't these two statements contradictory? :smallconfused:
I mean, okay, they aren't for the EML, but for all the other options (including the dual Shuriken Cannon one)...


(You guys did know that FNP doesn't work against weapons that cause Instant Death, right?)How couldn't I know? It's one of the most common sources of death for my poor Plague Marines. :smallfrown:


...I think Page 27 explains it pretty well...Well, as I said before, at least in the German codex that page seems to talk only about how it works in close combat, and doesn't mention how the shot works at all. So I'm kind of confused whether it works the exact same way as in close combat (wounds on 2+, S9 against vehicles), or whether it's just the "wounds on 4+" that S:X usually implies.


*elaboration on Pathfinders*Thanks again. :smallsmile:

My main question is, does it ever make sense to use un-upgraded Rangers? It just seems to me they gain so much by the Pathfinder upgrade that one should pretty much never use regular Rangers...


I've got another BatRep to write up. It's a 1750 game, so it's a big'un. It's against that Tyranid player that I played the other week. Since he cheated (didn't know the rules of of his own list) last time, we had a rematch.Oooh. Looking forward to that. :smallsmile:

[lord_khaine]

FNP is on a 4+.

So, do we have a candidate for next thread title here :smalltongue:

[Cheesegear]

Once again you've said something I wasn't sure of, then followed it up with really good advice on how to re-shape my list :smallwink:


Alright, thank you. That was highly helpful. :smallsmile:

It appears that I'm returning to form. :smallamused:


Aren't these two statements contradictory? :smallconfused:

Yes, yes they are. Since Vypers are Fast, feel free to ignore the S4 comment. But, apparently I'm not allowed to edit my posts anymore. So I have to wait until I get made to look like an idiot before I can tell people what I really meant.


So I'm kind of confused whether it works the exact same way as in close combat (wounds on 2+, S9 against vehicles), or whether it's just the "wounds on 4+" that S:X usually implies.

Wounds on 2+, S9 vs. vehicles. Yep.


My main question is, does it ever make sense to use un-upgraded Rangers? It just seems to me they gain so much by the Pathfinder upgrade that one should pretty much never use regular Rangers...

Unless you're strapped for points. Not really.

[Klose_the_Sith]

It appears that I'm returning to form. :smallamused:

I didn't think you ever lost it, you just stopped posting as regularly ... plus that Kroot debate is a walking mathhammer nightmare on legs, regardless of which side you take.

Now go write that Battle Rep - I'm so curious to see what all the hubbubs about :smallwink:

[Cheesegear]

I didn't think you ever lost it, you just stopped posting as regularly ... plus that Kroot debate is a walking mathhammer nightmare on legs, regardless of which side you take.

I was actually referring to the Night Spinner debacle.


Now go write that Battle Rep - I'm so curious to see what all the hubbubs about :smallwink:

How come I'm always the one writing Battle Reports? Can't someone else write one for once?

What's the hubbub? Swarmlord vs. Falcon. Yeah. That's right.

[_Zoot_]

The only problem with giving a Med pack to my Command squad is that it costs 30 points and I only have 20...

[lord_khaine]

How come I'm always the one writing Battle Reports? Can't someone else write one for once?


I wrote one in the last thread, i might write another one if i get a interesting battle.

[Winterwind]

Yes, yes they are. Since Vypers are Fast, feel free to ignore the S4 comment. But, apparently I'm not allowed to edit my posts anymore. So I have to wait until I get made to look like an idiot before I can tell people what I really meant.Ah, I see.
...as far as I'm concerned, I see nothing wrong with your usage of editing, but that's just me (heck, I edit my posts more often than not, too).


Wounds on 2+, S9 vs. vehicles. Yep.Splendid. :smallcool:


Unless you're strapped for points. Not really.Alright, got it.

Thanks again! :smallsmile:


How come I'm always the one writing Battle Reports? Can't someone else write one for once?Well, I write Battle Reports for WHFB moderately often, if that counts. :smallredface:

I haven't had all that many WH40k games lately (and the last one I did ended after three-and-a-half turns with my opponent giving up after providing excellent proof why Daemons are too unreliable). But when I get a good one, I'll make sure to write it up.

[ShadowFighter15]

Since most people here in Toowoomba (and apparently the rest of Australia if what Cheesegear's said is right) use 1750 point lists, I figured I'd try and do one up to get an idea of what else I should buy in the near future. I've probably spent too many points here and there or grabbed stuff that isn't as useful as it looks on paper, but that's what internet feedback's for, right?

Also, anything marked with an asterisk is something I already own and have built (except for the Sternguard squad; they're only half-built at the moment).

HQ
Captain Lysander - 200 Points

ELITES
Assault Terminator Squad (x5) - 200 Points*
2x Lightning Claws
3x Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields

Dreadnought - 145 Points*
Twin-Linked Lascannon
Missile Launcher

Sternguard Veterans (x10) - 335*
4x Combi-Meltas, Melta Bombs, Power Weapon
+ Drop Pod*
Locator Beacon

TROOPS
Tactical Squad (x10) - 230 Points*
Meltagun, Plasma Cannon, Melta Bombs
Sergeant: Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon
+ Rhino*

Tactical Squad (x10) - 270 Points*
Plasma Gun, Missile Launcher, Melta Bombs
Sergeant: Bolt Pistol and Power Weapon
+ Razorback*
Twin-linked Lascannon

FAST ATTACK
Assault Squad (x10) - 235 Points*
2x Flamer
Sergeant: Bolt Pistol, Power Fist

Land Speeder (x2) - 120
Both w/ Multi Meltas

Total: 1745 Points

I'm stumped on where to put those last five points, and I may just be paranoid, but I feel the lack of Heavy Support might cause some problems. Anyway, I'd appreciate any feedback I could get on this list.

[Klose_the_Sith]

I was actually referring to the Night Spinner debacle.

Oh, that. I didn't even read that cause I don't see them used and I don't play Eldar :smallwink:


How come I'm always the one writing Battle Reports? Can't someone else write one for once?

What, you want me to write about being almost tabled by Blood Angels? How about when I was almost tabled by Chaos? Or Tau?

I have won a grand total of one game in my whole experience with the game. I for one am justified in not writing Battle Reports, because no-one would learn anything new from seeing my lists fail :smalltongue:

[dsmiles]

plus that Kroot debate is a walking mathhammer nightmare on legs, regardless of which side you take.

Can I get a w00t for kr00t?!??!?

(Sorry, I couldn't help myself. :smalltongue:)

[Cheesegear]

Since most people here in Toowoomba (and apparently the rest of Australia if what Cheesegear's said is right) use 1750 point lists...

*Cracks open a White Dwarf (June's)...Goes to the back for tournament dates/details*
1750, 1750, 1750, 1500, 1750, 1750, 1500, 1850 (Tasmania fail), 1750, 1750, 1750, 1750, 1000x3, 750, 1500

I think it's safe to say that 1750 tournaments are relatively common. And Tasmania fails. Yes, that's also meant to be 750. Not 1750. It's for Ball & Chains and Youngbloods/Newbs.

Onto the list...


Captain Lysander - 200 Points

Yep. Good choice. I think he's the most powerful in the Codex. A lot of other people like He'Stan, Sicarius or Pedro. Depending on how they play.

Shrike is pretty good. But people don't seem to like him very much. I think partially due to the kind of army you have to play to work with him.


Assault Terminator Squad (x5) - 200 Points*
2x Lightning Claws
3x Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields

You're better off with Lightning Claws to Thunder Hammers going 4:1 with a Chaplain. However, since you're slogging it (or Deep Striking), I'd probably suggest 0:5.
If you're going to run 0:5 though, you might want to drop Lysander.


Dreadnought - 145 Points
Twin-Linked Lascannon
Missile Launcher

There are better things to spend your points on. But, this is one of the better set ups for a Dreadnought.


Sternguard Veterans (x10) - 335
4x Combi-Meltas, Melta Bombs, Power Weapon
+ Drop Pod*
Locator Beacon

Lose the Melta Bombs. Lose the Power Weapon. Trade it for a Fist. Might want to put in more Meltas and add a Heavy Flamer or two. If you're running a lot of Hammernators, drop Lysander for He'Stan. He makes your Hammernators and Suicide Sternguard better.


Tactical Squad (x10) - 230 Points
Meltagun, Plasma Cannon, Melta Bombs
Sergeant: Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon
+ Rhino

Tactical Squads can take Melta Bombs? :smallconfused:
I assume you meant on the Sergeant. Drop the Melta Bombs. Swap your Rhino for a Razorback. Combat Squad up. Leave the Plasma Cannon on the ground firing every turn, run the Power Weapon up where it's needed. Better yet, swap the Power Weapon for a Meltagun or Plasma Gun.


Tactical Squad (x10) - 270 Points
Plasma Gun, Missile Launcher, Melta Bombs
Sergeant: Bolt Pistol and Power Weapon
+ Razorback: Twin-linked Lascannon

Lose the Melta Bombs. Might want to swap out the Missile Launcher for a Heavy Bolter. I would.

And really. 1750, and only two Troops units? That's how you want to play is it? My first thought would be to drop the Dreadnought. You should have four Troops units in 1750. At least. Before you Combat Squad.


Assault Squad (x10) - 235 Points
2x Flamer
Sergeant: Bolt Pistol, Power Fist

I'd go with a Lightning Claw and Melta Bombs. A Lightning Claw will be more effective on whatever you're using Flamers on.


Land Speeder (x2) - 120
Both w/ Multi Meltas

Is He'Stan in the list? No? Didn't think so. These are pretty garbage. Grab Typhoons or Assault Cannons. Or drop these in favour of more Troops.


I feel the lack of Heavy Support might cause some problems. Anyway, I'd appreciate any feedback I could get on this list.

A problem I see is that you're taking 3 Elite slots. They're chewing a lot of your points up. Sternguard and Terminators? Since they don't all have Storm Shields, they're not going to last very long when they get shot at. And, Assault Terminators aren't really the kind of Terminators you want to Deep Strike. Not to mention that Assault Terminators kind of make Lysander redundant.

My first thought is to drop the Land Speeders and Dreadnought. 280 points right there. A few tweaks here and there, will get you to 300 points, which is enough for two Scout Squads with Rifles and Missile Launcher.

Or a Tactical Squad - or two - in Razorbacks.

Yeah, pretty much the main problem is lack of Troops.

[Trixie]

*Breathes through teeth*
Not the best. One of the better things a Chapter Master can do, is lay down an Orbital on the first turn. If you're running him in a Drop Pod, you'll need to give him Terminator Armour for Relentless if you're doing that. However, I have mentioned this before (specifically when talking about Pedro though), when you drop into your opponent's DZ, then follow that with an Orbital, keep in mind that it will Scatter the maximum distance. You can end up hitting your own units, and Orbitals turn infantry squads into paste.

Marneus Calgar is the bomb. Seriously. He has five attacks since he's got dual Power Fists. And he re-rolls To Wound. God of War is the best. No. Seriously. You thought Combat Tactics was broken? God of War breaks Combat Tactics even further.

...I don't use Calgar for the sole reason that he's a Land Raider. Lysander is only slightly worse for a lot less points.

...Great. Now I want to run Lysander and Calgar in the same list. Thanks a lot.

Um... I wanted for a long time to run a piece asking why you consider Lysander to be the best when for mere 50 points more you can have Calgar. Seriously. If all the extra things he gets for these were instead one 50 points upgrade character, everyone would take him. He would be one of the most underpriced units in the game. And, if you need teleport homer, he gets Terminator Armor free.

Looks like I don't have to, now :P


Actually, it would. Since God of War is not a 'second' Chapter Tactics. :smallfrown:

Um, I haven't noticed this before. Hmmm. Though, wait a second, Calgar does have Chapter Tactics. It is in his Special Rules. It's just 'normal' Chapter Tactics, though modified by God of War. All the other Special Rules replacing Chapter Tactics state that you have to pick between two ICs Chapter Tactics, not two unique Chapter Tactics.

I could be wrong, though, still, it would be weird if some shmucker could override Chapter Master so easily.

But then again, both unique CMs in the C:SM are so pants they don't even get artificer armor, despite other ICs from their Chapters having it. Maybe they're just so not-assertive? :P


Hmm...It seems that Calgar doesn't synergise with any of the other characters. Like, at all. He doesn't even work that well with Sicarius since God of War makes 'everyone is Ld10' useless.

Nope. God of War doesn't work on all morale and on pinning checks. Making sure your units are immune to dice rolls even in this regard is good, too, as then you're pretty much sure how they will always behave.

If you have them both, your army is now Fearless, but doesn't have a single penalty (like fearless wounds) included in that.

[Cheesegear]

Um... I wanted for a long time to run a piece asking why you consider Lysander to be the best when for mere 50 points more you can have Calgar.

Because I just said. The difference between Calgar and Lysander isn't that much. For 50 points. Calgar can shoot. Lysander makes the squad he's with shoot better. Especially important when using Vengeance Rounds with your Sternguard.

Second, Lysander has a 3+ Invulnerable. It counts for a lot.

Lysander also busts Land Raiders and Monoliths with ease. And can one-shot Warbosses.


And, if you need teleport homer, he gets Terminator Armor free.

No he doesn't. It costs 15 points.


Um, I haven't noticed this before. Hmmm. Though, wait a second, Calgar does have Chapter Tactics. It is in his Special Rules. It's just 'normal' Chapter Tactics, though modified by God of War.

It's not Chapter Tactics. Look again. It's Combat Tactics. It gets replaced by anyone who does have Chapter Tactics.


I could be wrong, though, still, it would be weird if some shmucker could override Chapter Master so easily.

You are wrong. Any not-Ultramarine IC (who has Chapter Tactics) over-rides Calgar. Because they all replace Combat Tactics with Chapter Tactics. I guess because Calgar has Combat Tactics, the idea is that when you take another SC, they replace Calgar's CTs with their own ChT making Calgar part of the Chapter that you're trying to make.

For example, when you take Lysander and Calgar, Calgar becomes Stubborn (because he has Combat Tactics), and God of War no longer applies (to anyone who isn't Calgar, himself) because nobody has Combat Tactics anymore.


If you have them both, your army is now Fearless, but doesn't have a single penalty (like fearless wounds) included in that.

What? I just checked, and you were right in the part I'm not quoting that God of War doesn't work for Pinning checks. They're not Fearless. They're Ld10 for Pinning. Slightly different.

Second, and I also just noticed, Calgar doesn't work if he's not on the table - or dead. Unlike every other character.

[Klose_the_Sith]

You are wrong. Any not-Ultramarine IC (who has Chapter Tactics) over-rides Calgar. Because they all replace Combat Tactics with Chapter Tactics. I guess because Calgar has Combat Tactics, the idea is that when you take another SC, they replace Calgar's CTs with their own ChT making Calgar part of the Chapter that you're trying to make.

For example, when you take Lysander and Calgar, Calgar becomes Stubborn (because he has Combat Tactics), and God of War no longer applies (to anyone who isn't Calgar, himself) because nobody has Combat Tactics anymore.

Man, you'd think the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines would be more assertive. Looks like he's every other Chapter Master's bitch :smallamused:

[crazedloon]

But, apparently I'm not allowed to edit my posts anymore. So I have to wait until I get made to look like an idiot before I can tell people what I really meant.

I hope this is not in reference to what I mentioned. If it is I am sorry it is not what I meant. It just so happens that discussions between members get particularly heated when it is assumed that each person catches every edit before they click post for their response. Further arguments than involve claims that a person did not read an edit is where problems occur. It is not only with you that this happens indeed it is with anyone on the forum and therefor does not mean you should feel you shouldn't edit. It is just best to assume ,if you fixed something with an edit, that your edits are missed for the first few following responses to your post.

[Trixie]

I hope this is not in reference to what I mentioned.

Eh, that quote was in part a strawman our dear CG so loathes ;P

No one said we have a problem with you fixing obvious mistakes or typos, my post from the beginning was about something you used to do sometimes - that is, tripling the size of posts that were on the verge of falling off the page and erasing whole relevant sections. Which was both annoying, and in part wasted effort, as a lot less eyes even had a chance to notice what you wrote.

As for Calgar - I'm still at loss why both unique CMs have worst armor possible. Duh.

[Cheesegear]

Man, you'd think the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines would be more assertive. Looks like he's every other Chapter Master's bitch :smallamused:

Not even that.
He's subject to other Chapters' Captains. And He'Stan doesn't even have a Battle-Rank, and he still tells Calgar what to do. :smallwink:


As for Calgar - I'm still at loss why both unique CMs have worst armor possible. Duh.

Both? By my count there's five...

Calgar runs around in Power Armour. Upgrades to Terminator Armour - if he wants to. But, the Power Armoured Calgar models comes from 2nd Ed (in fact I'm pretty sure he's just in 2nd Ed.-size Terminator Armour) and there aren't too many people who have that model. So, he's pretty much always in Terminator Armour...For 265 Points.
Pedro...Well...They don't have too many suits of Terminator or Artificer Armour around. What with their armoury detonating...You wont recover too much from that kind of explosion.

Dante is crap. Everyone knows.
Logan is a beast. And costs even more than Calgar.
Azrael...I forget. I'm AFC and I haven't memorised the Dark Angels Codex like the back of my hand yet (aside from Sammael and Ravenwing) because I really haven't wanted to. I think he's roughly on par with Sicarius on the "What's competitive?" scale. All the Dark Angels characters are. But, like I've said before, the rest of the DA Codex is pretty bad.

[ShadowFighter15]

You're better off with Lightning Claws to Thunder Hammers going 4:1 with a Chaplain. However, since you're slogging it (or Deep Striking), I'd probably suggest 0:5.
If you're going to run 0:5 though, you might want to drop Lysander.

The idea with a 2:3 ratio was so that they would still get a fair number of attacks in at their Initiative, while the Storm Shields would help with survivability. I was trying to get a bit of a balance. I may buy another Assault Termi kit in the future, just to give myself a bit more freedom with armament and possibly to knock-up a terminator-clad Captain/Chapter Master, maybe to use instead of the actual Lysander model (since he was going to be refluffed as a captain in my own chapter rather than Lysander moonlighting for another chapter). Though with your comments outside of the spoiler, I may ditch the termies until I can find a good way to work them into the list.


There are better things to spend your points on. But, this is one of the better set ups for a Dreadnought.

I'm tempted to go with an Ironclad I got recently, but that may turn out to be a bigger point-sink than a normal dread.


Lose the Melta Bombs. Lose the Power Weapon. Trade it for a Fist. Might want to put in more Meltas and add a Heavy Flamer or two. If you're running a lot of Hammernators, drop Lysander for He'Stan. He makes your Hammernators and Suicide Sternguard better.

The abundance of Melta Bombs in the list is probably paranoia left over from my first 40k game where a drop-podding Ironclad slaughtered my infantry in hand-to-hand (though the fact I forgot about Combat Tactics and where I deployed probably factored into that more than anything). I'm not sure about going with more combi-meltas, due to lack of available parts. I can knock together another three or four using a pack of five metal melta guns I got a while ago and some left-over bolt pistols, but I'd have to buy more stuff for anything more. As for the Heavy Flamers, I remember you mentioning that they're in the Terminator kit, is there only one in the kit? And how hard is it to modify them for normal Marines to use?


Tactical Squads can take Melta Bombs? :smallconfused:
That's a typo.

I assume you meant on the Sergeant. Drop the Melta Bombs. Swap your Rhino for a Razorback. Combat Squad up. Leave the Plasma Cannon on the ground firing every turn, run the Power Weapon up where it's needed. Better yet, swap the Power Weapon for a Meltagun or Plasma Gun.

Might keep the power weapon for now until I've got a few more games under my belt and have a better idea of what other armies are in town (only seen Marines, Wolves, Blood Angels, Eldar and 'nids so far and I think there's a Necron player around). And how often my tac squads end up in close-combat.


Lose the Melta Bombs. Might want to swap out the Missile Launcher for a Heavy Bolter. I would.

And really. 1750, and only two Troops units? That's how you want to play is it? My first thought would be to drop the Dreadnought. You should have four Troops units in 1750. At least. Before you Combat Squad.

Yeah, I kind of got a little carried away on the elite choices. Should've sorted out troops first, in hindsight. Might grab another tac squad and some sniper scouts. Maybe a Land Speeder Storm.


I'd go with a Lightning Claw and Melta Bombs. A Lightning Claw will be more effective on whatever you're using Flamers on.

I'm actually tempted to stick with the Power Fist for a bit of IC-killing. Had a second 1000-point game of 40k on the weekend against a Blood Angels player and the Fist managed to kill Dante. Granted, he doesn't have Eternal Warrior but even if they do have EW it's still not something they can ignore.


Is He'Stan in the list? No? Didn't think so. These are pretty garbage. Grab Typhoons or Assault Cannons. Or drop these in favour of more Troops.

I figured some multi-melta Land Speeders would work well at anti-armour work, considering their speed. Though this could be a case of 'good on paper, bad in practice'. I'll see if I can squeeze them in with Typhoons or not.



A problem I see is that you're taking 3 Elite slots. They're chewing a lot of your points up. Sternguard and Terminators? Since they don't all have Storm Shields, they're not going to last very long when they get shot at. And, Assault Terminators aren't really the kind of Terminators you want to Deep Strike. Not to mention that Assault Terminators kind of make Lysander redundant.

My first thought is to drop the Land Speeders and Dreadnought. 280 points right there. A few tweaks here and there, will get you to 300 points, which is enough for two Scout Squads with Rifles and Missile Launcher.

Or a Tactical Squad - or two - in Razorbacks.

Yeah, pretty much the main problem is lack of Troops.

I had a feeling I was a bit light on troops, but wasn't sure how to work them in. I've gone over the list and removed the dread, the speeders and the termies and added a pair of scout squads, both with sniper rifles and missile launchers, with one squad led by Telion.

The Sternguard Sergeant got a Power Fist and both he and the Tactical sergeants lost the melta bombs. The Assault Sarge has a lightning claw and melta bombs (although it'll be a while before I get around to making him WYSIWYG; what with him already having a power fist and there not being any lightning claws to replace it with - except for the left-over ones from the Assault Termie kit, but that'd require a fair bit of knife-work) and I've got 33 points left over. Here's the list in full if that was too hard to follow:

HQ
Lysander - 200 Points

ELITES
Sternguard Squad (x10) - 340 Points
Power Fist, 4x Combi-meltas (might add heavy flamers depending on how many you get in the Termi kit and how hard they are to adapt for use with normal Power Armour)
+ Drop Pod
Locator Beacon

TROOPS
Tactical Squad (x10) - 270 Points
Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter
Sergeant: Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon
+ Razorback
Twin-Linked Lascannons

Tactical Squad (x10) - 270 Points
Meltagun, Plasma Cannon
Sergeant: Bolt Pistol and Power Weapon
+ Razorback
Twin-Linked Lascannons

Scout Squad (x10) - 227 Points
Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher
Camo Cloaks (AFC at the moment, but I assume that Telion has is own cloak. The squad price is only counting the nine cloaks for the regular scouts)
Sergeant Telion

Scout Squad (x10) - 180 Points
Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher
Camo Cloaks

FAST ATTACK
Assault Squad (x10) - 230 Points
2x Flamers
Sergeant: Bolt Pistol, Lightning Claw, Melta Bombs

Total: 1717 Points

[One Step Two]

Azrael has artificer armour and his miget gives him and his unit a 4+ save, he carries a mastercrafted Relic blade, and-master crafted Combi-plasma. Not a bad deal for 225 points. But taking him means you're using a sub-standard marine army instead of ravenwing or deathwing.

[Cheesegear]

Azrael has artificer armour and his miget gives him and his unit a 4+ save, he carries a mastercrafted Relic blade, and-master crafted Combi-plasma. Not a bad deal for 225 points.

Yes. It is a bad deal. I thought he was less than that. I think I'd stick with Sicarius who does pretty much exactly what Azrael does, plus FNP and the ability to screw around with a Tactical Squad.

EDIT: I'm back home with a Codex in my hand. Azrael is pants. Just like every DA Character. Ignore that. Azrael rocks like a Ducati.

[DaedalusMkV]

So, I did decide to go with my Tau for the next couple of games, and I'm in the process of getting them ready to go now. Sadly, my broken skimmer bases proved completely unsalvagable and I was forced to either build my own, which would have required a couple hours at the hardware store and in the workshop and wouldn't have looked terribly good in any case, or spend $5 on a couple of new ones online. I also grabbed a Pirhana, since I've been wanting to test out Fusion Blaster Piranhas for a while now. I'm looking at list building right now, and I'll be working with a variant of what I've been using up to now. It's 1700 points, the standard at my LGS. Here's the list after my first draft:

HQ:
Shas'el: Cyclic Ion Blaster, Plasma Rifle, Targetting Array, Hard-Wired Multitracker, Shield Drone - 115

Elites
2 Crisis Suits: Plasma Rifle, Fusion Blaster, Multitracker - 124
2 Crisis Suits: Twin-linked Plasma Rifles, Flamers - 116


Troops:
10 Fire Warriors: Shas'ui, Bonding Knife - 115
10 Fire Warriors: Shas'ui, Bonding Knife - 115
10 Fire Warriors: Shas'ui, Bonding Knife - 115
10 Fire Warriors: Shas'ui, Bonding Knife - 115

Fast Attack:
6 Pathfinders - 72
-Devilfish: Disruption Pods - 85
6 Pathfinders - 72
-Devilfish: Disruption Pods - 85
1 Piranha: Fusion Blaster, Targetting Array, Disruption Pod - 75

Heavy Support:
Hammerhead: Railgun, Burst Cannons, Disruption Pod, Multitracker, Target Lock - 170
Hammerhead: Railgun, Burst Cannons, Disruption Pod, Multitracker, Target Lock - 170
2 Broadsides: 1 with Target Lock, 1 with Drone Controller and a Shield Drone - 160

Total Points: 1702

Some notes: Two of the Fire Warrior squads mount up in the Pathfinders' Devilfish at the beginning of my turn; they'll use them just like a normal mechanised Fire Warrior team afterwards. The other two provide fire support while holding onto any objectives in my own half of the board.
I'm trying out two new units in this list: The Piranha, obviously, and the second squad of Crisis Suits. I've heard good things about the Burning Eye (TL Plasma) configuration as an anti-MEq platform, though I've never tried them out personally. Flamers are my usual back-up weapon for TL-weapon 'suits, and I think they fit wonderfully with that config, making it far more versatile that its usual "shoot me at Terminators" status, if only with quite a bit of difficulty.
Comments and criticisms welcome, of course.

[One Step Two]

Yes. It is a bad deal. I thought he was less than that. I think I'd stick with Sicarius who does pretty much exactly what Azrael does, plus FNP and the ability to screw around with a Tactical Squad.

EDIT: I'm back home with a Codex in my hand. Azrael is pants. Just like every DA Character. Ignore that. Azrael rocks like a Ducati.

Six S6 attacks at I5 on the charge? Damn right he does. Unlike alot of 4th ed heroes, the man is properly wargeared up to the eyeballs. Rites of battle? Win. 4+ invulnreble save for the _entire_ unit, extra nifty.

[dsmiles]

So, I did decide to go with my Tau for the next couple of games, and I'm in the process of getting them ready to go now. Sadly, my broken skimmer bases proved completely unsalvagable and I was forced to either build my own, which would have required a couple hours at the hardware store and in the workshop and wouldn't have looked terribly good in any case, or spend $5 on a couple of new ones online. I also grabbed a Pirhana, since I've been wanting to test out Fusion Blaster Piranhas for a while now. I'm looking at list building right now, and I'll be working with a variant of what I've been using up to now. It's 1700 points, the standard at my LGS. Here's the list after my first draft:

HQ:
Shas'el: Cyclic Ion Blaster, Plasma Rifle, Targetting Array, Hard-Wired Multitracker, Shield Drone - 115

Elites
2 Crisis Suits: Plasma Rifle, Fusion Blaster, Multitracker - 124
2 Crisis Suits: Twin-linked Plasma Rifles, Flamers - 116


Troops:
10 Fire Warriors: Shas'ui, Bonding Knife - 115
10 Fire Warriors: Shas'ui, Bonding Knife - 115
10 Fire Warriors: Shas'ui, Bonding Knife - 115
10 Fire Warriors: Shas'ui, Bonding Knife - 115

Fast Attack:
6 Pathfinders - 72
-Devilfish: Disruption Pods - 85
6 Pathfinders - 72
-Devilfish: Disruption Pods - 85
1 Piranha: Fusion Blaster, Targetting Array, Disruption Pod - 75

Heavy Support:
Hammerhead: Railgun, Burst Cannons, Disruption Pod, Multitracker, Target Lock - 170
Hammerhead: Railgun, Burst Cannons, Disruption Pod, Multitracker, Target Lock - 170
2 Broadsides: 1 with Target Lock, 1 with Drone Controller and a Shield Drone - 160

Total Points: 1702

Some notes: Two of the Fire Warrior squads mount up in the Pathfinders' Devilfish at the beginning of my turn; they'll use them just like a normal mechanised Fire Warrior team afterwards. The other two provide fire support while holding onto any objectives in my own half of the board.
I'm trying out two new units in this list: The Piranha, obviously, and the second squad of Crisis Suits. I've heard good things about the Burning Eye (TL Plasma) configuration as an anti-MEq platform, though I've never tried them out personally. Flamers are my usual back-up weapon for TL-weapon 'suits, and I think they fit wonderfully with that config, making it far more versatile that its usual "shoot me at Terminators" status, if only with quite a bit of difficulty.
Comments and criticisms welcome, of course.

3 Questions:
1. No rail rifles on your pathfinders?
2. No flechette discharger on your piranha? (With the short range on the fusion blaster, it needs the defense, IMO.
3. More of an observation. With that many pathfinders, your list is practically begging for a skyray.

[Kzickas]

Infiltrating Assault Squads will be Assaulting on the first turn.

Unless your enemy is an eldar running elrad in which case he can simply move any units in charge range to the other end of his deployment zone after you deploy infiltrators

[Cheesegear]

Unless your enemy is an eldar running elrad in which case he can simply move any units in charge range to the other end of his deployment zone after you deploy infiltrators

*Shrug* Only a problem if you're opponent is playing Eldar, and only if they're running Eldrad. Not common enough to worry about. It would be bothersome if there were other (more Marine-like...) armies that could do it. But there aren't.

The Callidus can do it. But, again, only if your opponent runs a Callidus. And that's a pretty big 'if'. Since the Eversor exists...

[Winterwind]

Necrons with a Deceiver can do it, too. And if my friend, who's been comparing the trends in a wide variety of Necron forums is to be believed, the Deceiver is pretty much default in competitive Necron lists these days.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Azrael is pants. Just like every DA Character. Ignore that. Azrael rocks like a Ducati.

There's a contradiction in that statement.
Pants...generally means bad.

[DaedalusMkV]

3 Questions:
1. No rail rifles on your pathfinders?
2. No flechette discharger on your piranha? (With the short range on the fusion blaster, it needs the defense, IMO.
3. More of an observation. With that many pathfinders, your list is practically begging for a skyray.

1: Eew no. My Pathfinders are enough of a fire magnet to an opponent who knows what they're doing as is. Adding Rail Rifles would make them even more likely to be dead before I can blink. Also, I need those Markerlights. Rail Rifles are okay, but I think I'm better off just using the Pathfinders to support my anti-MEq Battlesuits.
2: Nah, I dropped the Flechettes for other things. I do like Flechettes, but the little guy was getting pretty expensive as-is, and frankly I'll be surprised if it survives nuking an enemy tank anyways. I'll keep it in mind as I go along, though.
3: Why, if I may ask? What's the benefit of going with a Sky Ray over an equivalently priced Hammerhead? The HH has a better gun that's more versatile and gets the same number of shots overall. The Sky Ray has more Markerlights. I suppose I could try one out though... I do have a Sky Ray turret hanging around, and this list is kind of about trying new things... Maybe. I'll think about it. I'd rather just throw some Seekers at my Pirhana and Devilfish, though. Hmm... That sounds like a good idea. Now where can I find 30 points for that...

[Trixie]

Also - with the amount of Bonding Knives you have, you might really want to take a look at Farsight/O'Shova :smalltongue:

[dsmiles]

1: Eew no. My Pathfinders are enough of a fire magnet to an opponent who knows what they're doing as is. Adding Rail Rifles would make them even more likely to be dead before I can blink. Also, I need those Markerlights. Rail Rifles are okay, but I think I'm better off just using the Pathfinders to support my anti-MEq Battlesuits.
2: Nah, I dropped the Flechettes for other things. I do like Flechettes, but the little guy was getting pretty expensive as-is, and frankly I'll be surprised if it survives nuking an enemy tank anyways. I'll keep it in mind as I go along, though.
3: Why, if I may ask? What's the benefit of going with a Sky Ray over an equivalently priced Hammerhead? The HH has a better gun that's more versatile and gets the same number of shots overall. The Sky Ray has more Markerlights. I suppose I could try one out though... I do have a Sky Ray turret hanging around, and this list is kind of about trying new things... Maybe. I'll think about it. I'd rather just throw some Seekers at my Pirhana and Devilfish, though. Hmm... That sounds like a good idea. Now where can I find 30 points for that...

I kind of like to keep a Skyray around. Unlimited range, and no LOS necessary from the Skyray. It really depends on your table size, I guess. If you have enough seekers on just your DF and Piranhas, don't use it. I like the HH better, overall. But for those hard-to-reach places, I prefer the Skyray.

[Gruffard]

Because with a Sky ray you can shoot all 6 shots in turn one and watch all your enemies transports go boom, and maybe a light tank. Your hammerhead takes 6 turns to shoot 6 shots, how often have you seen your tank last every turn?

[DaedalusMkV]

I kind of like to keep a Skyray around. Unlimited range, and no LOS necessary from the Skyray. It really depends on your table size, I guess. If you have enough seekers on just your DF and Piranhas, don't use it. I like the HH better, overall. But for those hard-to-reach places, I prefer the Skyray.
Fair enough. Unlimited range is no big deal; 72" plus your full move should cover the full table and you still need LOS and range from your static, shorter-ranged Markerlights.

Also - with the amount of Bonding Knives you have, you might really want to take a look at Farsight/O'Shova :smalltongue:
I hope that was a joke... Because I want nothing more than to drop half of my Pathfinders and Hammerheads so I can grab Farsight and use all those extra Crisis Suit models I don't have. To save 20 points on Bonding Knifes. That would be excellent.
I know it was a joke. But don't tell anyone XD

Because with a Sky ray you can shoot all 6 shots in turn one and watch all your enemies transports go boom, and maybe a light tank. Your hammerhead takes 6 turns to shoot 6 shots, how often have you seen your tank last every turn?
Quite commonly? About five games in six at least one of them lasts the game, and often both of them as well. They're Hammerheads; they're harder to kill than Land Raiders at range, and plenty fast to avoid enemy attacks.

Admittedly, I've never used a Sky Ray myself, and I haven't run any Seeker Missiles since the very beginning of 5th edition over 2 years ago, so maybe I'm wrong, but it just seems like the Hammerheads are so much more useful. But hey, I'm still contemplating the 'Ray. I might give it a shot. I do love my Railheads, though...

[Gruffard]

If I run 3 heavies I tend to do one Broadside team, one Hammerhead and one skyray. For balance in options, but overall it depends on in what point league I am in. I tend to find a team of broadsides and a hammerhead is more then enough to cover most heavy tanks, and the seeker missiles can be used for the transports/lighter tanks. Plus I love firing off more then half the payload in the first turn and forcing a few units to footslog it.

[dsmiles]

Fair enough. Unlimited range is no big deal; 72" plus your full move should cover the full table and you still need LOS and range from your static, shorter-ranged Markerlights.

Shorter ranged markerlights with a scout move. They can be in place and you can use those seekers asap.:smallbiggrin:

[crazedloon]

sky rays are a subpar option IMHO (never used or seen one used so take what follows with a grain of salt. edit:though I do play tau and know how the other heavy options work)

Skyrays replace/fill in for the taus troop options' fatal flaw i.e. no heavy weapons. It does this by allowing them to shoot heavy weapons (str 8 missles) The problem is that you are wasting another whole force slot (which has better options) to fill a hole. It would be sorta like if a imperial guard regiment could not have any heavy weapons in its platoons but had heavy weapons teams in the heavy slot. You could take heavy weapons teams to make up for the lack of teams in your troop slots or you can take the leman russes which are far superior. In this example the Russes are obviously hammerheads or broadsides.

If you feel the need to fill in your lack of heavy weapons with unlimited range missles just add them to your hammer head. Now your hammer head can do the same thing a sky ray can but also has a rail rifle. Or you can pick up a few piranha with seeker missles and fusions guns and you have much more effective vehicle hunting with the same weapons as the skyray.

[Cheesegear]

The idea with a 2:3 ratio was so that they would still get a fair number of attacks in at their Initiative, while the Storm Shields would help with survivability.

Storm Shields only really help if all your Terminators have them. Once you start taking more than 3 wounds at a time, especially from pesky pie plates and Plasma Cannons, you'll be allocating wounds to the Lightning Claws, and they wont last too long. Unless they're in a Land Raider.

If you teleport into your opponent's Deployment Zone, you'll find that Player Psychology will take over, and they'll FIRE EVERYTHING! at them. I know there are some people who are willing to use a 200 point unit for nothing except being a Fire Magnet. But, that's not my style. I don't like Deep Striking Assault Terminators. It gets...Messy. For me.


I may buy another Assault Termi kit in the future

You should have parts left over from your first box, yes? If so, buy the regular box of Terminators, get some cool parts (like a Heavy Flamer), and just use your spare Lightning Claws and Storm Shields on the regular Terminators.


I may ditch the termies until I can find a good way to work them into the list.

Ways to use Terminators.
Regular; Deep Strike with Storm Bolters and Assault Cannon. Metal Storm. I really don't like Terminators doing anything else. I suppose when they get really bored they can Power Fist a tank.
Assault, Lightning Claws:Thunder Hammers;
4:1; Add a Chaplain. Put in Land Raider. If you're using a Crusader, might want to go 5:2 and Chaplain, or 6:2.
0:5+; Hammernators. Do whatever you want. It'll work.

You don't need Hammernators if you're running Lysander. Or vice versa.


I'm tempted to go with an Ironclad I got recently, but that may turn out to be a bigger point-sink than a normal dread.

Depends how you use it. Mine never, ever, ever leaves home without a Drop Pod. Dual Heavy Flamers for winning times. Add He'Stan.


The abundance of Melta Bombs in the list is probably paranoia left over from my first 40k game where a drop-podding Ironclad slaughtered my infantry in hand-to-hand...

See? Ironclads. Drop Pods. ???. Profit.


though the fact I forgot about Combat Tactics

Speaking of...Are you sure you want to run Lysander? Combat Tactics is very good. Way better than Stubborn is.


As for the Heavy Flamers, I remember you mentioning that they're in the Terminator kit, is there only one in the kit? And how hard is it to modify them for normal Marines to use?

Yes, and easy.


Yeah, I kind of got a little carried away on the elite choices. Should've sorted out troops first, in hindsight. Might grab another tac squad and some sniper scouts. Maybe a Land Speeder Storm.

Are your opponents cool with proxy models? I highly suggest trying out a Land Speeder Storm before you actually go and buy one...They're not for everybody, to put it lightly.


Granted, he doesn't have Eternal Warrior but even if they do have EW it's still not something they can ignore.

I think you'll find that models with Eternal Warrior generally do ignore Power Fists. I know Lysander does.


I figured some multi-melta Land Speeders would work well at anti-armour work, considering their speed. Though this could be a case of 'good on paper, bad in practice'.

It is. But not with He'Stan.

Tip; I've mentioned He'Stan a lot. There's a reason for that. You should take him.


I had a feeling I was a bit light on troops, but wasn't sure how to work them in.

Really? Most people find working in Troops the easy part. It's working in everything else that's supposed to be hard.


Here's the list in full if that was too hard to follow:

...Right...


Lysander - 200 Points

I don't think this list works with him very well.


Sternguard Squad (x10) - 340 Points
Power Fist, 4x Combi-meltas
+ Drop Pod
Locator Beacon

Why Locator Beacon? Do you Deep Strike your Assault Squad as well? Because that's a Terrible (capital T) idea. If you were using Vanguard, it'd be a different story.

Or are you Deep Striking Lysander? Because you don't need to. A Drop Pod fits 12, and Lysander loves Sternguard. Or maybe you already knew that.

Second, you're planning to Alpha Strike those Combi-Meltas. Problem is, you don't have enough of them. And you only get one shot. You need to hit. Use He'Stan. Or get more Meltas.


Tactical Squad (x10) - 270 Points
Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter
Sergeant: Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon
+ Razorback
Twin-Linked Lascannons

Nice. Although I think given the squad armament, you don't really gain anything by having a 75 Point Razorback running around.


Tactical Squad (x10) - 270 Points
Meltagun, Plasma Cannon
Sergeant: Bolt Pistol and Power Weapon
+ Razorback
Twin-Linked Lascannons

This one works better with the Razorback since a Meltagun is not a Plasma Gun. The problem with this squad is, though, to get the full effect of the squad, you'll be needing to Combat Squad every single game. Which you might not want to do.

...Don't feel bad. Building an 'optimal' Tactical Squad is actually one of the harder things that Space Marine players have to do.


Scout Squad (x10) - 227 Points
Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher
Camo Cloaks
Sergeant Telion

No.
If you want a 3+ save, you can get Tactical Marines for the same price as a Scout in a Camo Cloak. Cloaks are the worst.

Telion is a waste. He's really not worth the points IMO. You know in this squad, alone, is 80 points worth of stuff. With the +75 points you've got from ditching the Razorback up above, you've got a spare ~150 points.

Which is a whole 'nother Scout Squad. Or Devastators with Missile Launchers. Trip-Attack Bikes with Multi-Meltas? No, really. Any of those things would be better than Camo Cloaks and Telion.


Scout Squad (x10) - 180 Points
Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher
Camo Cloaks

Another 30 point waste. This puts you at 180+ points. If you drop Lysander for Vulkan, you get another 5 points to boot. And Ironclad in a Drop Pod with dual Heavy Flamers is 185 Points...Think about it.


Assault Squad (x10) - 230 Points
2x Flamers
Sergeant: Bolt Pistol, Lightning Claw, Melta Bombs

Yep.


Total: 1717 Points

Are you supposed to have 1750? Or 1700? Either way, you've got problems with that points total.


There's a contradiction in that statement.
Pants...generally means bad.

Huh...So it is. Weird. I always thought that 'Pants' meant 'good'. Because, you know...Pants are awesome.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Quite commonly? About five games in six at least one of them lasts the game, and often both of them as well. They're Hammerheads; they're harder to kill than Land Raiders at range, and plenty fast to avoid enemy attacks.

How is a Hammerhead harder to kill than a Land Raider? :smallconfused:

I get that it can stay out of range, to an extent, but it's FA 13, SA 12 and vulnerable to being shaken/stunned. I see other tanks popping them open all the time.

Not that there's anything wrong with them, cause they're still excellent vehicles. I just don't buy the unbreakable.

[Cheesegear]

Not that there's anything wrong with them, cause they're still excellent vehicles. I just don't buy the unbreakable.

Hammerheads...Unbreakable? Pretty sure those are the first things to die when I play against Tau. However, that is me, though. Most Medium/Heavy Tanks don't last past Turn 2 against my armies.

[onasuma]

I disagree with cheese on the camo cloaks issue. A 3+ cover save unit of scouts is suprisingly survivable (assuming its approprietly positioned). Ive got a small squad of camo cloaked bolter scouts (to anger him further :smalltongue:) in my Iron Hands army and they always seem to do pretty well sitting away from the combat.

[Klose_the_Sith]

I disagree with cheese on the camo cloaks issue. A 3+ cover save unit of scouts is suprisingly survivable (assuming its approprietly positioned). Ive got a small squad of camo cloaked bolter scouts (to anger him further :smalltongue:) in my Iron Hands army and they always seem to do pretty well sitting away from the combat.

Go to ground for a 2+ Cover Save :smallbiggrin:

[Cheesegear]

I disagree with cheese on the camo cloaks issue. A 3+ cover save unit of scouts is suprisingly survivable (assuming its approprietly positioned).

You can get it to 2+ if you run Lysander or a Techmarine (by which I mean a Thunderfire Cannon) as well. Still, I'm just not one to rely on Cover Saves too much. The sheer abundance of low-cost Template and 'ingore cover' weapons makes cover fairly unreliable.


Ive got a small squad of camo cloaked bolter scouts (to anger him further :smalltongue:)

Camo Cloaks...And...Bolters!? The nonsensery of the entire sentence boggles my mind. You're aware you can get Tactical Marines instead, right? ...For the same points cost!?

...Yeah, but you already knew Scouts with Bolters (let alone Camo Cloaks) would break my brain.

[dsmiles]

How is a Hammerhead harder to kill than a Land Raider? :smallconfused:

I get that it can stay out of range, to an extent, but it's FA 13, SA 12 and vulnerable to being shaken/stunned. I see other tanks popping them open all the time.

Not that there's anything wrong with them, cause they're still excellent vehicles. I just don't buy the unbreakable.

I think we're getting into specific vehicle upgrades here like the Decoy Launchers and the Disruption Pods.
I'll be the first to admit that I'm not up to par (knowledge-wise) on anything non-Tau, and I have to do a lot of studying before each game, so AFB I don't know what land raiders are capable of.

[ShadowFighter15]

Storm Shields only really help if all your Terminators have them. Once you start taking more than 3 wounds at a time, especially from pesky pie plates and Plasma Cannons, you'll be allocating wounds to the Lightning Claws, and they wont last too long. Unless they're in a Land Raider.

I did put them together under the assumption I'd be able to get them in a Land Raider, but I won't be buying the model of it for a while and I'm not sure how to work it into the list.


You should have parts left over from your first box, yes? If so, buy the regular box of Terminators, get some cool parts (like a Heavy Flamer), and just use your spare Lightning Claws and Storm Shields on the regular Terminators.

Might do, and if I have a body left over I might be able to make a Terminator-clad Captain/Chapter Master for future use.


Ways to use Terminators.
Regular; Deep Strike with Storm Bolters and Assault Cannon. Metal Storm. I really don't like Terminators doing anything else. I suppose when they get really bored they can Power Fist a tank.
Assault, Lightning Claws:Thunder Hammers;
4:1; Add a Chaplain. Put in Land Raider. If you're using a Crusader, might want to go 5:2 and Chaplain, or 6:2.
0:5+; Hammernators. Do whatever you want. It'll work.

You don't need Hammernators if you're running Lysander. Or vice versa.

*puts above quote into Notepad doc titled "Marine Tactics I'll Probably Forget"*


Depends how you use it. Mine never, ever, ever leaves home without a Drop Pod. Dual Heavy Flamers for winning times. Add He'Stan.

Was going to run it with one melta and one flamer, though that might be because the first thing the Ironclad in my first game did was immobilise my Rhino with its melta. I was also planning from the start to run it with a Pod; if I'm going to have a dread starting on my side of the table, he'll be packing the biggest guns I can get my hands on (which at the moment are the lascannon & missile rack from the kit). It'd take him too long to get across the table otherwise and he'd just be a big fire-magnet.


See? Ironclads. Drop Pods. ???. Profit.

I'd known before the game that Pod-clads could be scarily dangerous, but there's a difference between seeing it mentioned on forums and working it out from the codex, and actually seeing it in action.


Speaking of...Are you sure you want to run Lysander? Combat Tactics is very good. Way better than Stubborn is.

Which is my main problem. I'm wanting to run He'Stan, but part of me just keeps recoiling from the near-cheese. Though I may just bite the bullet and go with Vulcan.


Yes, and easy.

Good to know.


Are your opponents cool with proxy models? I highly suggest trying out a Land Speeder Storm before you actually go and buy one...They're not for everybody, to put it lightly.

They're fine with proxy models; all three games I've had so far (had one against an ork army yesterday afternoon - I lost, but it was pretty close: Pitched Battle Annihilation, lost 5-6 but the game ended early at the end of turn 3 because he had to head home. I might've been able to get another couple of kill points from blowing up some of his wagons) I've used a captain model to proxy a Jump-Pack Chaplain. Still haven't gotten around to gluing the Chaplain together yet.


I think you'll find that models with Eternal Warrior generally do ignore Power Fists. I know Lysander does.

Fair point. I'll see how the claw goes with the assault sarge.


It is. But not with He'Stan.

Tip; I've mentioned He'Stan a lot. There's a reason for that. You should take him.

I assume you mean "not without He'Stan." :smalltongue:

Like I said, I'm leaning towards getting him. Especially after facing him in my first game; just about all of my casualties were from him and the Ironclad.


Really? Most people find working in Troops the easy part. It's working in everything else that's supposed to be hard.

Well I started off with the two tac squads and then sorted out all the other units before coming back to Troops. Don't know why, in hindsight.


Why Locator Beacon? Do you Deep Strike your Assault Squad as well? Because that's a Terrible (capital T) idea. If you were using Vanguard, it'd be a different story.

Actually I can't remember why I put that on there.


Or are you Deep Striking Lysander? Because you don't need to. A Drop Pod fits 12, and Lysander loves Sternguard. Or maybe you already knew that.

I did, plus I wouldn't want to deep-strike an IC unless he was coming down as part of a squad.


Second, you're planning to Alpha Strike those Combi-Meltas. Problem is, you don't have enough of them. And you only get one shot. You need to hit. Use He'Stan. Or get more Meltas.

Like I said, access to combi-melta bits is kind of limited without spending stupid amounts of money (plus four of the Sternguard I've built so far have normal bolters). This is just making He'Stan even more appealing.


Nice. Although I think given the squad armament, you don't really gain anything by having a 75 Point Razorback running around.

Should I mount the squad in a Rhino or are they fine on their own?


This one works better with the Razorback since a Meltagun is not a Plasma Gun. The problem with this squad is, though, to get the full effect of the squad, you'll be needing to Combat Squad every single game. Which you might not want to do.

...Don't feel bad. Building an 'optimal' Tactical Squad is actually one of the harder things that Space Marine players have to do.

Might leave this squad as-is. See how it goes and change if it doesn't work out.


No.
If you want a 3+ save, you can get Tactical Marines for the same price as a Scout in a Camo Cloak. Cloaks are the worst.

Telion is a waste. He's really not worth the points IMO. You know in this squad, alone, is 80 points worth of stuff. With the +75 points you've got from ditching the Razorback up above, you've got a spare ~150 points.

Which is a whole 'nother Scout Squad. Or Devastators with Missile Launchers. Trip-Attack Bikes with Multi-Meltas? No, really. Any of those things would be better than Camo Cloaks and Telion.

Fair enough, might go with the Attack Bikes (I like the models more than the other options you've listed and I've been wanting a way to get some bikes into this list).


Another 30 point waste. This puts you at 180+ points. If you drop Lysander for Vulkan, you get another 5 points to boot. And Ironclad in a Drop Pod with dual Heavy Flamers is 185 Points...Think about it.

This'd actually give me a good reason to finish that Ironclad (got the sub-assemblies all built except for the right arm and then I'll just have to glue the torso and feet to the legs, then stick it on the base... messed up the Hurricane Bolter though; glued the bolters in upside-down:smallredface:).



Are you supposed to have 1750? Or 1700? Either way, you've got problems with that points total.

It was supposed to be a 1750 point list, I was just stumped on what to spend the left-over points on. I'll make some changes to the list and see what it all adds up to.

[One Step Two]

I think we're getting into specific vehicle upgrades here like the Decoy Launchers and the Disruption Pods.
I'll be the first to admit that I'm not up to par (knowledge-wise) on anything non-Tau, and I have to do a lot of studying before each game, so AFB I don't know what land raiders are capable of.

A Landraider is considered the pinnacle tank of the Imperium, and indeed ingame it is second only to the Monolith to many players.

14 AV on all sides, a half dozen or so Variations that can fufill multiple roles. But in most cases, it is an assault fitted heavy vehicle armed with devastating firepower. In its basic configuration the Landraider has an assault ramp with a 10 man capacity, armed with two twin-linked Lascanon and twin-linked heavy bolters.

Power of the machine spirit means that the Landraider can fire one more weapon that it should be able to on any turn, so rules for combat speed, crew shaken and crew stunned means little to the Landraider, so even the refuge of a glancing hit means little to it.

Power of the Machine Spirit is on every single variant of the landraider, so if you cannot kill it, chances are it will turn around and vapourise whatever could be a threat to it.

[dsmiles]

A Landraider is considered the pinnacle tank of the Imperium, and indeed ingame it is second only to the Monolith to many players.

14 AV on all sides, a half dozen or so Variations that can fufill multiple roles. But in most cases, it is an assault fitted heavy vehicle armed with devastating firepower. In its basic configuration the Landraider has an assault ramp with a 10 man capacity, armed with two twin-linked Lascanon and twin-linked heavy bolters.

Power of the machine spirit means that the Landraider can fire one more weapon that it should be able to on any turn, so rules for combat speed, crew shaken and crew stunned means little to the Landraider, so even the refuge of a glancing hit means little to it.

Power of the Machine Spirit is on every single variant of the landraider, so if you cannot kill it, chances are it will turn around and vapourise whatever could be a threat to it.

Range, Strength and AP rating?

Hammerhead with railgun: r:72", s:10, ap:1 (or r:72", s:6, ap:4, large blast, if you fire a submunitions round)
hammerhead with ion cannon (why?): r:60", s:7, ap:3

[Winterwind]

I'd known before the game that Pod-clads could be scarily dangerous, but there's a difference between seeing it mentioned on forums and working it out from the codex, and actually seeing it in action.In the last 2v2 tournament last Saturday here, there was a team that brought some 8 or 9 Furioso, Death Company and Ironclad Dreadnoughts, in Lucius-Pattern Drop Pods from Imperial Armour (these being the ones that cost like 30 points more than regular Drop Pods, but allow to assault after leaving them immediately).

I hear they managed to practically table an army on their very first turn...


Which is my main problem. I'm wanting to run He'Stan, but part of me just keeps recoiling from the near-cheese. Though I may just bite the bullet and go with Vulcan.Having played against He'Stan several times by now, I don't think the "near-" is appropriate in front of cheese. :smalltongue:
I can, however, testify that he is tremendously powerful.


I assume you mean "not without He'Stan." :smalltongue:He was referring to your "good on paper, bad in practice" line. As in, multi-meltaing Land Speeders are good on paper but bad in practice - but not if you use He'Stan.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Range, Strength and AP rating?

Hammerhead with railgun: r:72", s:10, ap:1 (or r:72", s:6, ap:4, large blast, if you fire a submunitions round)
hammerhead with ion cannon (why?): r:60", s:7, ap:3

Str and Ap isn't the issue here, it's how killable you are at range that I was questioning. Yes, a Hammerhead has a better gun. (Although it could still lose a shoot-out with a Land Raider, as stun/shaken will turn your Hammerhead into a brick, but not a Land Raider).

[One Step Two]

Range, Strength and AP rating?

Hammerhead with railgun: r:72", s:10, ap:1 (or r:72", s:6, ap:4, large blast, if you fire a submunitions round)
hammerhead with ion cannon (why?): r:60", s:7, ap:3

Well for starters, all Landraiders are BS4, considering the majority of weapons are twin-linked. And something else about power of the machine spirit, just to add, using it, means you can fire at a different unit from what other weapons might.

Standard Landraider
2x Twin-linked Lascannons: Heavy 1, 48", S9, AP2.
Twin-linked Heavy Bolter: Heavy 3, 36", S5, AP4.

To this above landraider you can add a Multi-Melta (Heavy 1 24", S8 AP 1 Melta), and a Hunter-killer Missile (Unlimited Range, S8, AP3, One shot).

In regards to any of the weapons, power of the machine spirit means they can move 12" and still fire a weapon, which gives their lascannon a range of 60" and a 4+ cover save in addition to all it's other goodies to keeping it hard to hit.

[SmartAlec]

Well, there's a reason Land Raiders are 100 points more than a Hammerhead.

That said, at extreme range they've got similar odds - Hammerhead's single s10 AP1 weapon vs. Land Raider's AV14 vs. Land Raider's single s9 AP2 weapon vs. Hammerhead's AV13.

If you added a few of the available upgrades to the Hammerhead - counts as Fast, always obscured - things draw quite level.

Essentially, though, it's because of the two armies' very different underlying ideas. Space Marines - survivability and strength in redundancy; Tau - combined arms and evasion of enemy fire.

[Closet_Skeleton]

That said, at extreme range they've got similar odds - Hammerhead's single s10 AP1 weapon vs. Land Raider's AV14 vs. Land Raider's single s9 AP2 weapon vs. Hammerhead's AV13.


For tanks at extreme range, space marines have deep striking meltas.


Six S6 attacks at I5 on the charge? Damn right he does. Unlike alot of 4th ed heroes, the man is properly wargeared up to the eyeballs. Rites of battle? Win. 4+ invulnreble save for the _entire_ unit, extra nifty.

So he's as good as a cover save and worse than a techmarine. Woo. He's be even worse if Dark Angels hammernators didn't suck.

[One Step Two]

For tanks at extreme range, space marines have deep striking meltas.

And Blood Angels can Deepstrike Landraiders with metlas.


This reminds me, a member of my local club scratchbuilt a Storm Raven using a Valkyrie and a Rhino, I'll try and get photos this friday. Bloodstrike missiles: Scary.

[Closet_Skeleton]

And Blood Angels can Deepstrike Landraiders with metlas.

Except they have no bloody reason too, since they have combi melta sternguard like everyone else, and doa assault marines with melta guns (an okay sub par substitute) and doa vanguard veterans with melta bombs (a terribly overpriced substitute).

A deep striking land raider can power of the machine spirit a multi melta that it needs to pay extra points for (whoo, an expensive version of the worst form of dreadnought in a drop pod) or unload a unit with meltas (whoo, an expensive drop pod without a drop pod's special rules).

My Blood Angels army has managed two victories against infantry guard.

Libriarian
Hand flamer, jump pack, fear of the darkness, unleash rage

Elites
Sanguinary Priest
1 with bike and melta bombs, 1 with power weapon and jump pack

Troops
10 assault marines
sergeant with power fist and hand flamer, 2 hand flamers

10 assault marines
sergreant with inferno pistol and power sword, 2 melta guns

10 tactical marines
sergerant with bolt gun and power fist, plasma gun and plasma cannon

Only about 3 assault marines survived both times, but the four flamers hitting those poor guard won the battle for me. That and feel no pain.

The master of ordnance hurt a lot though. I do feel that if he'd just given his sergeants power fists I wouldn't have stomped over him in every combat.

[Incomp]

In the last 2v2 tournament last Saturday here, there was a team that brought some 8 or 9 Furioso, Death Company and Ironclad Dreadnoughts, in Lucius-Pattern Drop Pods from Imperial Armour (these being the ones that cost like 30 points more than regular Drop Pods, but allow to assault after leaving them immediately).

I hear they managed to practically table an army on their very first turn...


Really? IA is legal at your tournaments? That seems silly to me...



Having played against He'Stan several times by now, I don't think the "near-" is appropriate in front of cheese. :smalltongue:
I can, however, testify that he is tremendously powerful.


I don't think He'Stan is cheesy at all. His special rules are good, but they're a waste unless you build your army around them. (Meltas, meltas, meltas, hammernators. It's what I'd take anyway.) It's a case of getting your points' worth, really. However, He'Stan himself is not tremendously powerful. He has a captain's profile, IIRC, with a 3+ invulnerable save, a master-crafted relic blade and a heavy flamer. I'm not too scared of that.

[SmartAlec]

For tanks at extreme range, space marines have deep striking meltas.

Sure, but if you're going to throw in stuff like that into the 'duel', the other side could probably afford two Hammerheads.

[Cheesegear]

Sure, but if you're going to throw in stuff like that into the 'duel', the other side could probably afford two Hammerheads.

Which means jack. Since the Sternguard Combat Squad out of the Drop Pod and kill both tanks on Turn 1. I do it all the time.

There are more ways than Suicide Sternguard. I myself also like Attack Bikes, and regular Bike squads with Meltas. Scout Bikes with Power Fists are also fun. Same deal for Land Speeder Storms with Assault Cannons and Scouts with Power Fists that are in your opponent's DZ on Turn 1. Etc.

[Ninja Chocobo]

and a 4+ cover save

I think you have been misinformed.

The Hammerhead is the one with the 4+ cover at range.


Really? IA is legal at your tournaments? That seems silly to me...

Anyone who doesn't think so look up the Hades Breaching Drill. Yes, those are its abilities.

[SmartAlec]

Which means jack. Since the Sternguard Combat Squad out of the Drop Pod and kill both tanks on Turn 1. I do it all the time.

A combat squad? Do you mean a squad of ten divided into two combat squads of five?

[Winterwind]

Really? IA is legal at your tournaments? That seems silly to me...Matter of fact, part of the reason these two people played a list as ridiculous as that is that they wanted to prove to the store owner that allowing IA at tournaments was a bad idea.

Alas, in one game they were up against an Inquisitor with two Mystics, who was able to mess up those incoming Dreadnoughts, and in another there was some special rule in place that said that all non-vehicle units came back over the table's edge after being destroyed, so them practically tabling the enemy before the enemy even got a single turn didn't accomplish anything. In the third game though, their opponents lost before getting a single turn. Still, they only made place 3 and didn't convince the store owner that IA is the most poorly balanced piece of squig-dung ever printed.


I don't think He'Stan is cheesy at all. His special rules are good, but they're a waste unless you build your army around them. Which is why you do just that when you take him. And then, he becomes quite cheesy indeed.


(Meltas, meltas, meltas, hammernators. It's what I'd take anyway.) That makes it even worse, as it proves he improves precisely the parts of the codex even more powerful that are the most powerful already anyway.


It's a case of getting your points' worth, really. However, He'Stan himself is not tremendously powerful. He has a captain's profile, IIRC, with a 3+ invulnerable save, a master-crafted relic blade and a heavy flamer. I'm not too scared of that.Re-rollable S6 attacks combined with 2+/3+ saves are not scary? I beg to differ. :smalltongue:


A combat squad? Do you mean a squad of ten divided into two combat squads of five?Yes. I haven't ever seen Sternguard used in a different way.

[EleventhHour]

I think you have been misinformed.

The Hammerhead is the one with the 4+ cover at range.

Move 12", get a 4+ cover save. Use PotMS to fire a (las/assault cannon, etc).

Unless the newer edition changed it. I never really ever learned my way through the changes between 4th and 5th.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Move 12", get a 4+ cover save.

That is...not the case.
You get a 4+ cover save only if you are a Fast Skimmer that has moved more than 12".

[Winterwind]

That is...not the case.
You get a 4+ cover save only if you are a Fast Skimmer that has moved more than 12".I'm away from my rulebook, and it has never been relevant to me, so I may be wrong, but I don't think you need to be a Skimmer for that. Moving more than 12" should be enough, no matter what you are.

[IthilanorStPete]

I'm away from my rulebook, and it has never been relevant to me, so I may be wrong, but I don't think you need to be a Skimmer for that. Moving more than 12" should be enough, no matter what you are.

It's only Fast Skimmers.

[SmartAlec]

Yes. I haven't ever seen Sternguard used in a different way.

Well. Assuming that the Tau player has allowed you to do this by deploying both tanks close enough to each other - an unforgivable mistake - the Sternguard will still be destroyed, for certain. Jumping into the middle of a Tau army is a death sentence.

Essentially, you're betting 300+ points worth of stuff and putting it in fatal danger for the chance of getting first-strike-kill capacity... on 300 points worth of stuff.

In a regular 1500 points game, that's a whole fifth of your army you're gambling with there.

And so many things can go wrong. It's a risky gamble. If the Tau player deploys at range, as they likely should, whatever you send into there is going to be too far from support. If you're aiming for the back or rear armour, the drop pod might even scatter off the board. Power fists are going to be of limited effectiveness against skimmers, as usual, so all you have is that one initial shot. This kind of throwing-your-army-at-the-enemy-in-bits strategy is exactly what the Tau are made to fight.

This kind of chess-piece-exchange style of play seems weird.

[One Step Two]

Well. Assuming that the Tau player has allowed you to do this by deploying both tanks close enough to each other - an unforgivable mistake - the Sternguard will still be destroyed, for certain. Jumping into the middle of a Tau army is a death sentence.

Essentially, you're betting 300+ points worth of stuff and putting it in fatal danger for the chance of getting first-strike-kill capacity... on 300 points worth of stuff.

In a regular 1500 points game, that's a whole fifth of your army you're gambling with there.

And so many things can go wrong. It's a risky gamble. If the Tau player deploys at range, as they likely should, whatever you send into there is going to be too far from support. If you're aiming for the back or rear armour, the drop pod might even scatter off the board. Power fists are going to be of limited effectiveness against skimmers, as usual, so all you have is that one initial shot. This kind of throwing-your-army-at-the-enemy-in-bits strategy is exactly what the Tau are made to fight.

This kind of chess-piece-exchange style of play seems weird.


Firstly, you're not wrong. It's a risk, a heavy one, but there's a reason for that. First and foremost, depending on your deployment, some players have little choice about how and where they can deploy vehicles, especially if they want to keep them hull down, or out of LoS, if you're a canny player, you can choose a deployment which does just that. Forcing a tight deployment to maximise the impact of such a manuever.

Secondly, it's a worthwhile sacrafice, even if it is 1/5th of your army, because that's 2 units of sternguard (since they combat squad'd up) and the still armed Drop pod to contend with in the tau deployment area. This forces them to drop whatever tactics they planned to immediately shoot everything at the big fat menaces in their DZ, it means the rest of your army is now less likely to be shot at in the following turn. And if those 3+ saves do their thing, it may mean that those Sternguard live to be a present threat for another turn.

Losing peice of peice doesn't seem to make sense untill you remember, there's more than one peice in the game. Exposing a rook to be taken by a bishop may mean you can move the queen to threaten other peices.

[Winterwind]

It's only Fast Skimmers.Oh. Okay. In that case, my bad, sorry. :smallredface:


And so many things can go wrong. It's a risky gamble. If the Tau player deploys at range, as they likely should, whatever you send into there is going to be too far from support. If you're aiming for the back or rear armour, the drop pod might even scatter off the board. Power fists are going to be of limited effectiveness against skimmers, as usual, so all you have is that one initial shot. This kind of throwing-your-army-at-the-enemy-in-bits strategy is exactly what the Tau are made to fight.Sternguard have combi-melters. 10 of them. There's no need for them to go for side or rear armour, and the likelihood of the targets they shoot at surviving is... not very high. :smallwink:


This kind of chess-piece-exchange style of play seems weird.The thing is, it's the Space Marine player who decides which chess pieces get exchanged. They see how your army is deployed, they see what you have, and then they decide in which place exactly they can drop the Sternguard to cause the most damage to your army and your plans. So, even if it ends up being a 300 points for 300 points exchange, the Space Marine player has lost 300 points that had no role in his plans other than doing their job and dying there, while you have lost the 300 points the Space Marine player deemed to be the most dangerous and crucial for your cause.

[ShadowFighter15]

In the last 2v2 tournament last Saturday here, there was a team that brought some 8 or 9 Furioso, Death Company and Ironclad Dreadnoughts, in Lucius-Pattern Drop Pods from Imperial Armour (these being the ones that cost like 30 points more than regular Drop Pods, but allow to assault after leaving them immediately).

I hear they managed to practically table an army on their very first turn...:smalleek:


Having played against He'Stan several times by now, I don't think the "near-" is appropriate in front of cheese. :smalltongue:
I can, however, testify that he is tremendously powerful.This is why I was reluctant to take him, would've felt like I was being too cheesy.


He was referring to your "good on paper, bad in practice" line. As in, multi-meltaing Land Speeders are good on paper but bad in practice - but not if you use He'Stan.

Ah.:smallredface:

[SmartAlec]

I think this kind of strategy is much more effective against some armies than others.

Against, for example, Imperial Guard, Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Necrons etc you're often dealing with the same philosophy of army selection. These are not flexible armies; they're often built around a solid core. If you break part of that core, you can often collapse them.

Against other armies, things change a bit. Tau can rapidly redeploy firepower. Tyranids can swarm you. Eldar and Dark Eldar sit in the middle of that, Eldar being an interesting combination of flexibility and specialisation. These armies are, I think, intended to be less based around a core and more flexible in terms of the distribution and speed of their killpower. Few units are essential. Each of these forces has the capability to accommodate a punch like that.

You can still play Tau or Eldar or even Tyranids as if they're Space Marines, but I think that's the wrong way to go about this. And when I say that this kind of sacrificial move is entirely the wrong way to go about fighting them, I mean it. You're right in that the highest level of warfare is to attack the enemy's plans rather than their army, but that works both ways. If the enemy knows you're prepared to try and sacrifice your troops this way, then he or she can be ready for it.

If you've ever played chess, then you might know that early attempts to push piece-exchanges rarely go well, unless you know exactly what you're doing and your opponent does not.

Most of the Tau victories I've seen happen very much the same way. The Tau army is deployed across the board; the enemy advance, there's some first strikes; the Tau defeat the first strikes, and back off, consolidating; the enemy army continues to advance, but is eventually whittled down; the Tau army begins advancing again around turn 4 as the enemy's killpower is steadily reduced.

Maybe you've had different experiences, but experience has made me be very doubtful concerning the sacrificial-squad approach, here.

(As for the Sternguard's survival, it's pretty bleak. Too many ap3+ weapons, and markerlights can make them sure to hit.)

[Winterwind]

I think this kind of strategy is much more effective against some armies than others.

*explanation*

Maybe you've had different experiences, but experience has made me be very doubtful concerning the sacrificial-squad approach, here.Your reasoning is sound. While I'd think there usually was some target that was more crucial to the opponent and his or her plans than the rest, I could easily see that strategy falter against a foe against which it is poorly suited. I'll just have to take your word for it - firstly, it's been a while since I played against Tau the last time, secondly, I don't play Space Marines myself anyway, so all my experiences with drop-podding Sternguard is from when it was used against me (and more often than not, it actually failed - I may be playing Chaos Space Marines, but I have no Land Raiders, no Defilers, and my most vulnerable and important squads are always deployed in cover, so the worst thing the Sternguard can do is blowing up my Rhinos - which tend to stand far apart). But I've watched enough games/played in 2v2s, where it proved devastating - especially against heavily mechanized lists. Like, the Sternguard blowing up a Chaos Land Raider and a Defiler in a single turn against a different CSM player.


(As for the Sternguard's survival, it's pretty bleak. Too many ap3+ weapons, and markerlights can make them sure to hit.)Oh, there is no doubt at all that they'll die. The question is whether whatever they take down before they do makes that worth it, and how beneficial to the Space Marine player them drawing all the fire away from the rest of the army proves to be.

[dsmiles]

Matter of fact, part of the reason these two people played a list as ridiculous as that is that they wanted to prove to the store owner that allowing IA at tournaments was a bad idea.


Really? Taros Campaign doesn't seem that overpowered for what it gives the Tau (read: mostly kroot and kroot-related stuff). The variant XV8s aren't that potent, and the only one that can't get those options through the normal 'dex is the XV81 (smart missiles). The pathfinder tetra is junk (IMO), and I don't know anyone who plays with the aircraft. Granted, I like the heavy drones, and the new XV9s are pretty awesome (again IMO), but they're not in the IA series yet, just a rule sheet that comes with the model.

[Winterwind]

Really? Taros Campaign doesn't seem that overpowered for what it gives the Tau (read: mostly kroot and kroot-related stuff). The variant XV8s aren't that potent, and the only one that can't get those options through the normal 'dex is the XV81 (smart missiles). The pathfinder tetra is junk (IMO), and I don't know anyone who plays with the aircraft. Granted, I like the heavy drones, and the new XV9s are pretty awesome (again IMO), but they're not in the IA series yet, just a rule sheet that comes with the model.What I've heard about the IA books so far indicates that they are full of tons and tons and tons of choices ranging between 'badly underpowered' and 'okay-ish', with a few that are so ridiculously overpowered in between that every 12 year old munchkin would have been too ashamed to come up with them. Of course, pretty much only the latter ones get used...

[dsmiles]

What I've heard about the IA books so far indicates that they are full of tons and tons and tons of choices ranging between 'badly underpowered' and 'okay-ish', with a few that are so ridiculously overpowered in between that every 12 year old munchkin would have been too ashamed to come up with them. Of course, pretty much only the latter ones get used...

Probably typical gaming company stuff: give the overpowered stuff to the most used armies, and the average stuff to the less used ones. That's probably why it worked out well for the Tau with not being overpowered. :smallwink:

[Winterwind]

Probably typical gaming company stuff: give the overpowered stuff to the most used armies, and the average stuff to the less used ones. That's probably why it worked out well for the Tau with not being overpowered. :smallwink:Indeed. That's what annoys me the most about Imperial Armour - not only does it seem atrociously balanced, but all the really overpowered choices I've heard about so far went, without exception, to Imperial Guard and Space Marines. I.e., two armies that definitely do not need to get even better. :smallsigh:

I usually try to be as open to the other players playing whatever they want to play as I can (though I dislike the vast prevalence of Special Characters around here greatly), but I have drawn the line at Imperial Armour. I flat-out refuse to play against armies utilizing that.

...of course, at tournaments, one doesn't really have a choice regarding that. Almost makes me glad I missed that one. :smallfrown:

[dsmiles]

Indeed. That's what annoys me the most about Imperial Armour - not only does it seem overpowered, but all the really overpowered choices I've heard about so far went, without exception, to Imperial Guard and Space Marines. I.e., two armies that definitely do not need to get even better. :smallsigh:

Yeah. I can't say that the Tau got shafted, but I'm willing to bet DE did. Did they even do an IA for DE?

[Winterwind]

I don't know, but I don't think so. (Also, I made an edit to my last post)

[dsmiles]

I'll pretty much play against anybody, SC, IA or whatever. I lose a lot, being a beginner, and all. I've never been shafted by somebody using FW stuff, and I can't say I would feel bad if somebody did use it against me to great effect. After all, it's a war, it's a game, and both of those are about winning (except most Roleplaying Games). To me, all's fair, as long as it's legal by the books.

[Winterwind]

The problem is that some things possible in Imperial Armour can literally prevent you from playing. It really is possible you put your army on the table, the opponent gets the first turn, and when your turn comes around, you'll find that half your army is already gone or tied up in close combats it will die to when the close combat phase rolls around. A turn later, your entire army is gone. I don't mind losing, but if half my models vanish before I can even do anything with them, what's the point in putting them out there in the first place? :smallwink:

[dsmiles]

The problem is that some things possible in Imperial Armour can literally prevent you from playing. It really is possible you put your army on the table, the opponent gets the first turn, and when your turn comes around, you'll find that half your army is already gone or tied up in close combats it will die to when the close combat phase rolls around. A turn later, your entire army is gone. I don't mind losing, but if half my models vanish before I can even do anything with them, what's the point in putting them out there in the first place? :smallwink:

While I see your point, I like a little realism in wargaming. You know, "the country with the most money in their military budget wins." I just wish our country had more money in their military budget. I just don't get paid enough to play Warhammer (so I'm switching to mostly Warmachine, with Warhammer as a side project).

[onasuma]

You're aware you can get Tactical Marines instead, right? ...For the same points cost!?

Of course I could, but I try to play a very agile list in which infiltrate, scout, and move through cover are a key point. Small groups of scouts run move into cover close to the enemy deployment zone and rapid fire at them while the real men move in in rasorbacks.

[crazedloon]

Did they even do an IA for DE?

No they have 2 vehicles in the entire series of IA. Each of them fliers and IMHO each of them worse than a ravager which is half the price.

[MountainKing]

IRT Land Raider/Hammerhead discussion: Honestly, I think it's kind of pointless to compare the two of them, because the two things have different roles. The Hammerhead is for reaching out and touching somebody with a really big gun, and the Land Raider is for driving up, spewing out a bunch of infantry, and helping *them* reach out and touch somebody. It's kind of apples to oranges, in my mind.

By statline only, the Land Raider is "better". It's got more guns, more armor, and a really sweet ability.

Getting all crazy into discussing how different tactics and such make either tank explode is kind of silly; sure, it's the point of the thread, but that's tactics. When you're comparing two units, shouldn't it be more about the size of the hammer, and not about how you wield it? :smallwink:

[lord_khaine]

So, i recently noticed Space Marine vehicles with the ability to ignore either the melta or the lance rule, how ordinary is that, and who is it that gets it?

[Wraith]

Black Templars' Land Raider Crusader can get a 'Blessed Hull', which negates the 'Lance' special rule. Daemonhunters almost get a 'Blessed' upgrade for their vehicles, but it's a different ability with a similar name.

....And that seems to be it, unless there is something in the Imperial Armour books that I (and, I have to admit, no one I have ever met in person) own. :smallconfused:

[Trixie]

Stormraven and Caestus Ram both have ceramite (anti-melta) armor. I remember something else does. GK vehicle? Monolith ignores melta as well. Though, half of the melta weapons aren't really "melta", so that ability doesn't help as much.

[Wraith]

GK Vehicles don't get it, they get 'Blessed' instead (an upgrade that makes it harder for Daemons to Assault them). Well remembered on the Stormraven, though I don't think even the most bizarre of2v2 armies would feature a Space Marine Monolith! :smallbiggrin:

Also, just had to Google a Caestus Ram to find out what it actually was - way to go with the obscure reference, Trixie :smallsmile:
Good God, but it's an ugly model though..... :smallconfused:

[lord_khaine]

Ahh, nice to hear those abilities isnt that common again, and cant be combined by SM.

I guess a handful of Brightlances and a bus full of fire dragons should keep me safe then :)

[One Step Two]

Way back in 3rd Edition, when some Chapters (mostly the founding ones) had their own rules, Salamanders had Ceramite Plating Vehicle upgrade, which made their tanks who bought it, immune to the Melta rule. I miss my salamanders army. Chaplin with Thunder Hammers for free, the original Salamander Mantle which was the forebarer of the Adamantine Mantle, and dual flamer (well, any assault weapon really) Tactical squads, with the drawbacks that they all acted at one less iniative than their codex entries, and all Fast attack choices were 0-1.

[MountainKing]

Ahh, nice to hear those abilities isnt that common again, and cant be combined by SM.

I guess a handful of Brightlances and a bus full of fire dragons should keep me safe then :)

I'll wager that if somebody wanted to play around using Allies, they could find a way to nullify one of those two things. :smallwink: In the grimdark future, you're never truly safe. :smallbiggrin:

[Ninja Chocobo]

Indeed. That's what annoys me the most about Imperial Armour - not only does it seem atrociously balanced, but all the really overpowered choices I've heard about so far went, without exception, to Imperial Guard and Space Marines. I.e., two armies that definitely do not need to get even better. :smallsigh:

Not so! The Big Squiggoth is pretty ridiculous too!
Not as ridiculous as the Breaching Drill, which is and always will be the most ludicrously overpowered piece of kit in IA, but pretty bad.


GK Vehicles don't get it, they get 'Blessed' instead (an upgrade that makes it harder for Daemons to Assault them). Well remembered on the Stormraven, though I don't think even the most bizarre of2v2 armies would feature a Space Marine Monolith! :smallbiggrin:

If we're talking Blood Angels, there is precedent.

[Cheesegear]

I did put them together under the assumption I'd be able to get them in a Land Raider, but I won't be buying the model of it for a while and I'm not sure how to work it into the list.

That...Unsettles me. That you bought Terminators to be used in conjunction with another model that
a) You don't have. And is also one of the single-most expensive things in the hobby outside of Forgeworld, and so you're unlikely to get it for quite some time anyway, and
b) You can't work the Land Raider into a list anyway.

...It's a common mistake. GW Staff convince people to buy models that they can't and/or don't know how to use all the time. However, I kind of get the feeling that this was a concious descision on your part to do what you've done - which kind of makes it worse. :smallfrown:


Might do, and if I have a body left over I might be able to make a Terminator-clad Captain/Chapter Master for future use.

Maybe. You should have ten Terminator Bodies from two boxes. If you have Hammers and Shield to spare, I'd put those on your Terminators first. Then, I'd make four LC Terminators, just so you can make that magic 4:1 ratio of LC/THs.

You should have 4 Lightning Claws, 5 Thunder Hammers. And a tenth body to spare.

Then use that 10th 'spare' Terminator, give him all the 'Sergeant' upgrades from the regular Terminator box (that you don't get in the Assault Terminator box), and make him a Chapter Master. I wouldn't make him a Captain, because Captains are much better on Bikes or Jump Packs, IMO.

Or use a unique Captain.

The other thing you can do with your last Terminator, is make a Chapter-Appropriate Marneus Calgar (Chapter Master, told you). Everyone needs one. I still haven't made my Vladamir Pugh. Which kind of disappoints me. And I don't really know how to make a Hawk Lords' (Raven Guard) Calgar.


I was also planning from the start to run it with a Pod; if I'm going to have a dread starting on my side of the table, he'll be packing the biggest guns I can get my hands on (which at the moment are the lascannon & missile rack from the kit).

Venerable Dreadnoughts are good for that, as they have extra BS, and can force your opponent to re-roll those Crew Stunned/Shaken rolls to Weapon Destroyeds or Immobiliseds.


I'd known before the game that Pod-clads could be scarily dangerous, but there's a difference between seeing it mentioned on forums and working it out from the codex, and actually seeing it in action.

It really depends on what's in them. And where they land.


It was supposed to be a 1750 point list

...So...I managed to pull ~190 points out of your list that you 'wasted'. And you're telling me that you still had another 30 points to go...And you couldn't work in Terminators?
Twin Dakka-Preds? Autolas Preds?

230 Points is also twin Vindicators. Just saying.


Alas, in one game they were up against an Inquisitor with two Mystics, who was able to mess up those incoming Dreadnoughts

Uhh...Somebody cheated. The Drop Pod is the thing that Deep Strikes. The Dreadnought is merely disembarking from a vehicle, not Deep Striking.

Quite a few people get that wrong, actually. Mystics should not have given shots against them.

You can't Assault - or move - out of a normal Drop Pod, not because you just Deep Striked, but because the squad inside just disembarked from a Transport that had just counted as moving at combat speed. It's also super-sweet that you can land next to terrain (because a Drop Pod does that) and deploy from the Drop Pod, 2" straight into cover, no dangerous terrain saves required. Because you're exiting a Transport, not Deep Striking.


That makes it even worse, as it proves he improves precisely the parts of the codex even more powerful that are the most powerful already anyway.

The reason He'Stan is so good is that he improves Flamers and Heavy Flamers. Generally regarded as 'crap' and 'mediocre' respectively. He also makes Combi-Meltas on everything that can take one viable. He makes Land Speeders with dual Heavy Flamers (or Multi-Meltas) viable, etc.

Hammernators and Suicide Sternguard are super-powerful already. He'Stan doesn't really change that.


Re-rollable S6 attacks combined with 2+/3+ saves are not scary? I beg to differ. :smalltongue:

He's pretty much Lysander without Eternal Warrior. He loses S10 for S6, Initiative. And fires a Master-Crafted Heavy Flamer. And can Sweeping Advance.

I mostly only use Lysander because in my meta-game, Eternal Warrior is pretty much mandatory, and my army setup benefits from Stubborn tremendously. I don't even have any Flamers, I sometimes use Heavy Flamers on my Sternguard, but they're the first things I take out when I need more points for a different army concept, etc.
I don't have Hammernators (because Lysander's in the army), and Sternguard Combi-Meltas missing is made up for by having lots of Combi-Meltas.

He'Stan is wasted on me. If I wanted that kind of army, though, I'd have it.


Yes. I haven't ever seen Sternguard used in a different way.

ORLY? You've never seen a Pedro-style army in action?


First and foremost, depending on your deployment, some players have little choice about how and where they can deploy vehicles

Spearhead f*s you up. Especially if your opponent - who deploys first - actually knows how to play Spearhead effectively. I've mentioned how to do it a few times in my Battle Reports.


Secondly, it's a worthwhile sacrafice, even if it is 1/5th of your army, because that's 2 units of sternguard (since they combat squad'd up) and the still armed Drop pod to contend with in the tau deployment area.

This. If your army starts falling back, you've got enemy units within 6" so you can't regroup. Do Bonding Knives help with that? ATSKNF doesn't...

If you failed your Morale check on your opponent's turn, and can't regroup on your turn, you've just run away for two turns in your own Deployment Zone. You're off the board.


This forces them to drop whatever tactics they planned to immediately shoot everything at the big fat menaces in their DZ, it means the rest of your army is now less likely to be shot at in the following turn. And if those 3+ saves do their thing, it may mean that those Sternguard live to be a present threat for another turn.

This. Again. Due to the way Sternguard work, the first turn they drop, they should lay waste to whatever they're pointed at. In your opponent's turn, they should get shot at, take a few casualties. In your turn again, they've probably done their thing, and should be just softening up whatever the next high-value target is for the rest of your army.

Suicide Sternguard are for killing things that need to die in the first turn.


Losing peice of peice doesn't seem to make sense untill you remember, there's more than one peice in the game. Exposing a rook to be taken by a bishop may mean you can move the queen to threaten other peices.

This pretty much defines everything that's wrong with 'this unit is better than that unit' discusstions, as the game is played as a whole. Not individual units versing each other.


As for the Sternguard's survival, it's pretty bleak. Too many ap3+ weapons, and markerlights can make them sure to hit.)


Oh, there is no doubt at all that they'll die. The question is whether whatever they take down before they do makes that worth it, and how beneficial to the Space Marine player them drawing all the fire away from the rest of the army proves to be.

Winterwind QFT. They don't call them Suicide Sternguard for nothing you know. It's true for just about any army, ever. Whatever you have, in your opponent's Deployment Zone is going to die...Or your opponent is an idiot.

However, you, being a smart player, have put them in your opponent's Dragonball Z for a reason. Because whatever that particular unit is, can do an f*ton of damage when it's in the middle of everything.

Put a proper unit (ten, so they can take casualties) of Scouts with a Locator Beacon near, or in your opponent's DZ. Use a Land Speeder Storm, or get Shrike to make them Fleet.

Use Tigurius to get your Reserves in. Or play Blood Angels for DoA. Watch as you drop two or three units of Vanguard into your opponent's Dying Zebras on the second turn.

Drop Hammernators in. Anytime. Your opponent will have a panic attack.
Drop Ironclads or Librarian Furiosos. Unless your opponent is playing Tyranids or MC Eldar (MCs > Walkers), he'll have a panic attack too.

Play Dark Eldar. Put a Webway portal in your opponent's DZ. Wreak havoc. Of course, there are ways to beat a Webway Portal, but, since no-one plays Dark Eldar anymore, only the most competitive players (or people who read it in a forum one time...) will know how to completely ruin it.

Drop nine Tyranid Warriors with Deathspitters.
Drop Zoanthropes.
Drop 20+ Gargoyles and/or Hive Tyrants (with wings).
Drop Malan'Tai.
Ymgarls. Lictors. Deathleaper.

Hell, even Tau have Crisis Suits.

...The thought that 'they're going to die' is not the thought you have when you Deep Strike into your opponent's DZ. It's how much carnage they can pull off when they get there.
...Of course, it takes finesse.


Yeah. I can't say that the Tau got shafted, but I'm willing to bet DE did. Did they even do an IA for DE?

I brought it up once, that the Tau get nothing out of Apoc/IA. Trixie, who I think is second only to Zorg on what comes out of Forgeworld only came up with the Manta as the 'best' thing that Tau have...And that's pretty crap compared to everything else in IA.

[SmartAlec]

Suicide Sternguard are for killing things that need to die in the first turn.

...The thought that 'they're going to die' is not the thought you have when you Deep Strike into your opponent's DZ. It's how much carnage they can pull off when they get there.
...Of course, it takes finesse.

I don't like these four sentences.

If your battleplan is contingent on something being destroyed in the first turn, it's not a very good plan. In fact, I don't think there IS such a thing as 'needs to die in the first turn', outside of Imperial Armor.

And I don't think 'finesse' is the word to use to describe suicidal attacks. That is the very opposite of finesse. That is classic Imperium brute-force tactics at their most basic. If you can win often without putting your troops onto fatal terrain and without losing a squad, then I think you will be able to speak of finesse.

Is defensive strategy a lost art? It feels that way, sometimes.

EDIT: Don't think I don't understand the nature of sudden first-strikes. I do. I can see the value of forcing your opponent to redeploy, and of attempting to cripple the enemy's best units asap. But the trouble with these things is, once you've used them on someone once, they know what's coming and that tactic is much less effective against them.

It's Fool's Mate, to bring back the chess metaphor.

[DaedalusMkV]

I brought it up once, that the Tau get nothing out of Apoc/IA. Trixie, who I think is second only to Zorg on what comes out of Forgeworld only came up with the Manta as the 'best' thing that Tau have...And that's pretty crap compared to everything else in IA.
The Remora Drone Fighters are playable enough, certainly more than the Manta. Railgun Tigersharks are plenty good, being a Superheavy Flyer with good BS carrying a gun that's either a Destroyer weapon or a Demolisher Cannon equivalent with better range, twin-linked. But the meat of the Tau Apocalypse stuff? Their Datasheets, no doubt. The Stealth Suit Datasheet is made of win, the Pathfinder Datasheet amounts to "I have 24 Pathfinders wherever I want to on the board, whenever I want them to show up. They can still shoot when I deploy them. You can only shoot them if you're within 20". My entire army is BS5 against anything I get two Markerlight counters on." Finally, the Armoured Interdiction Cadre is incredibly cheap generates a couple of free markerlight counters to anything the command tank can see. The Kroot sheet basically gives you the entire Kroot Mercs codex in legal form for your army, and the Devilfish one makes all of your 'Fish Fast for 100 points, which can be an incredible deal.

Note that most of the above comes from Apoc:Reloaded and the free sheets from GW's website. If you're just using the stock Apoc book, the Tau really are pretty poor off. With everything they have access to in Apoc? They've got some great stuff. Yeah, the Tau don't get the rediculous Superheavies of the other factions, but they get more than enough in Apocalypse to make the game plenty fun. You know who really gets nothing in Apoc? DE, Necrons, Daemons, and the Inquisition factions have less than six total datasheets each, compared to the Tau's ~14.

Edit: Removed a couple of minor inaccuracies.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Uhh...Somebody cheated. The Drop Pod is the thing that Deep Strikes. The Dreadnought is merely disembarking from a vehicle, not Deep Striking.

Guess again. (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180153_Daemonhunters_FAQ_2004-08_5th_Edition.pdf)

[Cheesegear]

If your battleplan is contingent on something being destroyed in the first turn, it's not a very good plan.

What? By destroying your opponent's biggest and nastiest unit, on the first turn, makes the rest of the game incredibly easy. Nothing is 'contingent' on the Sternguard. They just do their job incredibly effectively.

You seem to think that if the Sternguard don't kill it in the first turn, then nothing else will. That's definitely not the case.


And I don't think 'finesse' is the word to use to describe suicidal attacks. That is the very opposite of finesse.

What squad are you using? What unit are you using it to kill? Are you willing to risk Scatter? What if you're not using Drop Troops? What if you're using Outflankers? Super-Quick Bike Squads.

Only Space Marine armies and 'Nids have access to Drop Pods. Everyone else has to Alpha Strike differently. How? Sometimes the 'Nids don't even use Spores. But they can still Alpha Strike.


But the trouble with these things is, once you've used them on someone once, they know what's coming and that tactic is much less effective against them.

That's not the case. It's a first turn drop (but not always). There's absolutely nothing they can do about it. They can't hide in Terrain, because Drop Pods don't land in terrain. They can't bunch their units together, because Pods (and Spores, and Mawlocs, etc) ignore enemy units as well.

Locator Beacons and Vanguard. What can you do about it? Nothing.

That's the entire point. Your opponent can't do anything about it. Even if he does know it's coming. It's what it's called Alpha Striking. Terrain is pretty much everywhere. The Ymgarls will get you every time.

Oh, you can avoid Ymgarls by not entering terrain. Yeah. Do that. Don't get cover saves from enemy fire. See how that works out for you.


Because 'Victory Points' are no longer used anymore, such as they were in old editions (seriously, some people don't even know that VPs still exist in 5th, that's how 'never used' they are), it doesn't matter if your units don't survive.

The only units that matter are Troops. If they're not Troops, feel free to get them killed at the earliest opportunity if that's what the situation calls for. In Annhilation, you need to be more conservative. But, that's only one third of your games.

[lord_khaine]

I'll wager that if somebody wanted to play around using Allies, they could find a way to nullify one of those two things. In the grimdark future, you're never truly safe.


Well, there is allways Wraithguards to fall back on, for when you really want to crash that monolith.


That's not the case. It's a first turn drop (but not always). There's absolutely nothing they can do about it. They can't hide in Terrain, because Drop Pods don't land in terrain. They can't bunch their units together, because Pods (and Spores, and Mawlocs, etc) ignore enemy units as well.


They can put their entire army in reserve? i have seen some armies that do it.

[Cheesegear]

They can put their entire army in reserve? i have seen some armies that do it.

That's a huge mistake. Anybody who has seen the picture of the White Scars and Kroot knows. Besides, putting your entire army in Reserve, with no guarantee when they'll come on? It's worse than a Dawn of War setup.

And Chaos Daemons get a way better deal than that, and that's actually their biggest weakness.

You could put your entire army in Reserve. But, you're basically just giving your opponent a 'free' turn in which none of his stuff gets shot at, and he gets to redeploy his forces as he sees fit, move his Fast units onto objectives, or move into cover, etc. And you wont even stop him doing whatever he wants until at least the second turn.

Putting your entire army in Reserves - without Outflank/Deep Strike - achieves nothing except to 'run out the clock', and if your opponent has Infiltrators, he can seriously mess up your day, as seen in White Scars vs. Kroot.

Got the Sep-Dec release dates and previews for Black Library today too...
Hunt for Voldoris - Raven Guard and White Scars, yes!
The second Ciaphas Cain omnibus. YES! As well as another book. Double YES!
The First Heretic. YES!!!
A Garro audio book. GARRO! I hope his voice actor is at least as bad arse as Colonel Stracken's is...I'm hoping that this will be the story of the creation of the Inquistion (read the ending of Flight of the Eisenstein).
Dead Men Walking *Head explodes from excitement*

...Although, TBH, my head just exploded from The First Heretic (Aaron Dembski-Bowden!) and Garro (James Swallow!!!) alone. The rest are just gravy.

[lord_khaine]

That's a huge mistake. Anybody who has seen the picture of the White Scars and Kroot knows. Besides, putting your entire army in Reserve, with no guarantee when they'll come on? It's worse than a Dawn of War setup.

And Chaos Daemons get a way better deal than that, and that's actually their biggest weakness.

You could put your entire army in Reserve. But, you're basically just giving your opponent a 'free' turn in which none of his stuff gets shot at, and he gets to redeploy his forces as he sees fit, move his Fast units onto objectives, or move into cover, etc. And you wont even stop him doing whatever he wants until at least the second turn.


This cant be true, since the player in question had a crushing victory, and unless you are playing against Tau then i doubt the opponent can put down enough infiltrators to pull it off.

The reason for why he put all his stuff into reserve was that the opponent suddenly had a entire turn where he couldnt shoot at anything, the best he could do was to move around a bit.

Then on his turn he was able to deploy his units in response to the opponents setup, leading to a crushing victory.

[Klose_the_Sith]

This cant be true, since the player in question had a crushing victory, and unless you are playing against Tau then i doubt the opponent can put down enough infiltrators to pull it off.

The reason for why he put all his stuff into reserve was that the opponent suddenly had a entire turn where he couldnt shoot at anything, the best he could do was to move around a bit.

Then on his turn he was able to deploy his units in response to the opponents setup, leading to a crushing victory.

Those would be a really impressive sequence of 4+'s :smalleek:

[SmartAlec]

What? By destroying your opponent's biggest and nastiest unit, on the first turn, makes the rest of the game incredibly easy. Nothing is 'contingent' on the Sternguard. They just do their job incredibly effectively.

You seem to think that if the Sternguard don't kill it in the first turn, then nothing else will. That's definitely not the case.

No, that's what you are giving the impression of. I know there are other ways of achieving the same objective, and that's why I say sacrificing a large chunk of your army to do it is wasteful.


That's not the case. It's a first turn drop (but not always). There's absolutely nothing they can do about it. They can't hide in Terrain, because Drop Pods don't land in terrain. They can't bunch their units together, because Pods (and Spores, and Mawlocs, etc) ignore enemy units as well.

Locator Beacons and Vanguard. What can you do about it? Nothing...

That's the entire point. Your opponent can't do anything about it. Even if he does know it's coming. It's what it's called Alpha Striking. Terrain is pretty much everywhere. The Ymgarls will get you every time.

Oh, you can avoid Ymgarls by not entering terrain. Yeah. Do that. Don't get cover saves from enemy fire. See how that works out for you.

There are plenty of things you can do about it. Before the first turn, there is deployment. Part of it is psychological warfare - making it seem to your opponent that whatever strategy they have in mind will not achieve anything. Practically, though, that's achieved a number of ways. Predicting what your opponent's target will be, and setting up accordingly to make things difficult for them - in the Drop Pod's case, deploying close to the edge of the board and using screening units. In deep-striking units' case, keeping as close to terrain as possible. Equipping/upgrading a unit accordingly to serve as 'bait', and leaving them apparently vulnerable can be effective, especially if it leaves the striking unit out in the open.

If they're going to be after a unit, putting that unit on a high level or in a building can thwart various kinds of alpha strikes. With a fast-moving army, you can arrange your whole setup around the alpha strike and then redeploy to meet the oncoming army without much loss of firepower (such as the ymgarl you mentioned - there's more ways to get a cover save than using terrain). if you keep outflanking in mind, you can refuse one flank and cover the other. Leaving yourself some room to retreat is always something that needs bearing in mind.

What size table are you playing on here?


The only units that matter are Troops. If they're not Troops, feel free to get them killed at the earliest opportunity if that's what the situation calls for. In Annhilation, you need to be more conservative. But, that's only one third of your games.

This is the fallacy that leads to boring strategy, I think. All units matter. You have paid for their killpower, and decisive, impressive victory comes from not just applying that killpower to best effect, but also conserving it so that you have as much killpower to apply in any given turn as you can. Winning because you threw part of your army into the wind doesn't strike me as particularly impressive, because if your opponent couldn't deal with something so obvious, they're not much of an opponent. It may work for you, but to my mind it's lazy generalship.

As an aside, putting your entire army in reserve can often work very well. It's the typical strategy of mechanised Eldar armies, for example.

[dsmiles]

I brought it up once, that the Tau get nothing out of Apoc/IA. Trixie, who I think is second only to Zorg on what comes out of Forgeworld only came up with the Manta as the 'best' thing that Tau have...And that's pretty crap compared to everything else in IA.

I gotta admit, most of the IA/Apocalypse stuff for Tau is pretty craptastic. I do like the FW XV8-series models (XV-89 being XV8 w/iridium armor, XV-84 being XV8 w/markerlight, and the XV-81 having smart missiles) and the new(ish) XV9 Hazard Suits are alright as FA. Heavy drones make the drone squad a slightly more viable choice, though I still wouldn't take a drone squad if you paid me. :smalltongue: I haven't played with anyone using air support, so I can't speak for the Manta/Orca/whatever.

[Cheesegear]

This cant be true, since the player in question had a crushing victory, and unless you are playing against Tau then i doubt the opponent can put down enough infiltrators to pull it off.

You are aware of the list that I - myself - run, right? :smallconfused:


No, that's what you are giving the impression of. I know there are other ways of achieving the same objective, and that's why I say sacrificing a large chunk of your army to do it is wasteful.

A large chunk? ...335 Points. To kill roughly anything, and then some? I'd pay it.


There are plenty of things you can do about it. Before the first turn, there is deployment. Part of it is psychological warfare - making it seem to your opponent that whatever strategy they have in mind will not achieve anything.

Except that wont work if your opponent actually knows how to play. I know the Sternguard work. I know Ymgarls work. There's really nothing you can put on the board that will change my mind. Because I know exactly what those units can and can't take on.


in the Drop Pod's case, deploying close to the edge of the board and using screening units.

Doesn't really work. Trust me. It helps. But it doesn't save you.


[I]Equipping/upgrading a unit accordingly to serve as 'bait', and leaving them apparently vulnerable can be effective, especially if it leaves the striking unit out in the open.

Again, doesn't work if you're opponent knows how to play. Especially since he's allowed to freely look at your list anytime he wants and know exactly what is 'bait' and what your 'real' units are.


What size table are you playing on here?

6x4', with lots of terrain and LoS Blockers. More than normal.


This is the fallacy that leads to boring strategy, I think. All units matter. You have paid for their killpower, and decisive, impressive victory comes from not just applying that killpower to best effect, but also conserving it so that you have as much killpower to apply in any given turn as you can.

Victory doesn't need to be impressive. You just need to win. Besides, if I'm not playing Tyranids or Chaos Marines, the Sternguard are the only part of my army that dies anyway.

Did you ever see my Space Wolves vs. Tyranids where I lost only one model in the entire game because my Alpha Strikes were that good? Did you see the game vs. Eldar where my Ironclad killed two units pretty much on his own, and never even got touched?


Winning because you threw part of your army into the wind doesn't strike me as particularly impressive, because if your opponent couldn't deal with something so obvious, they're not much of an opponent. It may work for you, but to my mind it's lazy generalship.

That's your call. But, winning is winning. And tournament tables don't care how you won. Just that you did.