Fighter 20 vs Warlock 10 [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

mgshamster

2016-05-08, 08:34 PM

Build a level 20 fighter and/or a level 10 warlock. Pit them together.

Who wins?

Let's see some actual builds here. No Schrodingers.

Current builds:

Made by JNAProductions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20756848&postcount=8)

Fighter (Champion) 20
Wood Elf

Strength 9
Dexterity 20 (14 Base, +2 Race, +4 ASIs)
Constitution 18 (14 base, +4 ASIs)
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 14 (12 base, +1 Race, +1 Feat)
Charisma 12

Dex +2 (Levels 4, 6)
Sharpshooter (Level 8)
Resilient (Wsidom) (Level 12)
Con +2 (Levels 14, 16)
Mobile (level 19)

Armed with Studded Leather and a Longbow. Has the Defensive and Archery Fighting styles.

AC 18
HP 204
Move 45'

Made by Malifice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20757364&postcount=74)

My Fighter 20 build is the switch hitter:

Feats/ ASI: Lucky, Alert, Resilient [wisdom], Great weapon master, Sharpshooter, +4 Strength, +2 Dex

Str: 20
Dex: 18
Wis: 14
Con: 12
Int and Cha: 8

Battlemaster: Precise strike, Tripping attack, Menacing attack, Riposte, others. Archery F/S.

Equipment: Full plate, Greatsword, Maul, Longbow

Made by MaxWilson (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20757130&postcount=42)
Rolls: 13 13 8 11 12 15
Degalus Magnus Benedictus, small, solid-looking man with a square face and an open manner.
LG Human Baker/Retired soldier (Pythium army), Eldritch Knight 20
Str* 11 Dex (16) 20 Con* 14 Int 12 Wis* (13) 14 Cha 8 HP 164 [* = proficient save]
Good-natured, kind, earnest, trusting; naturally quiet, but likes to talk about his wife and kids back home to anyone who asks about them; socially-awkward, unable to let a joke die. Doesn't trust most Pythium aristocrats--"they only care about each other."
Skills: Athletics, Acrobatics, Perception, Stealth, Insight; baker's tools, poisoner's kit; Common, Dwarvish
Feats (8): Sharpshooter, Dex 16 => 18, Dex 18 => 20, Alert, Mobile, Lucky, Resilient (Wis), Warcaster
Cantrips (3): Mold Earth [for digging in fortifications], False Fetters [née Booming Blade], Prestidigitation [great for cleaning baking implements]
Spells (13): Darkness, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Shield, Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Fire Shield, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Fireball, Expeditious Retreat*, Magic Weapon*, Blink*, Dimension Door* [* = non-evoc/abj]
Spell points: 38

Made by AvatarVecna (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20765039&postcount=177)

Half-Orc Champion 20
Level 1 Stats: 16/14/16/8/12/8
Level 20 Stats: 20/14/18/8/14/8
Saves: +11/+2/+10/-1/+8/-1
Feats/ASIs: Tavern Brawler (Con)/Grappler/Resilient (Wis)/Tough/Str +4/Con +1/Wis +1
Fighting Styles: Dueling/Mariner

AC: 13
HP: 19d10+130 (average 244)
Attack: 4 attacks, +11
Damage: 1d4+7
Crit: 19-20, 3d4+7

Made by NewGM (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20780619&postcount=517"")

Wizard(Bladesinger)
High Elf

Strength 10 (+0) [10]
Dexterity 16 (+3) [14, +2 race]
Constitution 14 (+2) [14]
Intelligence 16 (+3) [15, +1 race]
Wisdom 9 (-1) [9]
Charisma 9 (-1) [9]

Feats: War Caster, Lucky

AC 13(Mage Armor)+3(dex)+3(int from blade song)=19
AC with Shield spell 24
HP 62

Spells (Prepared 13):
Cantrips (5 known): Fire Bolt, Booming Blade,
1st(4 slots, known 10): Mage Armor, False Life,
2nd(3 slots, known 4): Mirror Image,
3rd(3 slots, known 4): Blink, Vampiric Touch, Haste,
4th(3 slots, known 4): Fire Shield, Polymorph, Stone Skin, Greater Invisibility,
5th(2 slots, known 4) Animate Objects, Wall of Force,
Active spells: either Greater Invisibility, Blink, Fire Shield, Animate Objects (tiny) or Polymorph (T-Rex)

Made by NewGM (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20757105&postcount=39)
Warlock (Pact of the Blade, Fiend Patron) 10
Hill Dwarf
Dwarf Weapon Proficiencies
Dwarven Resilience (+1 hp per level)

Strength 9
Dexterity 14
Constitution 18 (15 base, +2 Race, +1 ASI)
Intelligence 9
Wisdom 9 (8 base, +1 Race)
Charisma 16 (+1 ASI)

Feats/ASI:
Tough (+2 hp per level)
Ability Score Increase (+1 Con, +1 Cha)

Armed with Mage Armor and a Pact Weapon Longbow (proficient as per Jeremy Crawford ranged weapons are allowed).

Important Class Features: Dark Ones Own Luck (add 1d10 to ability check or save), Fiendish Resilience (resistance against piercing damage).

Invocations: Fiendish Vigor (At-Will False Life, up at start of combat since there is no down side to having it up at all times +1d4+4 temp hp), Sculptor of Flesh (Mammoth, T-Rex), Thirsting Blade (2 attacks with pact weapon per round), Mire the Mind (Cast Slow with a spell slot), (??? don't care about 5th one)

Spells (2 spell slots up to 5th):
1st(1): Armor of Agythys (25 temp hp), Expeditious Retreat (+30 move speed), Hex (+1d6 damage)
2nd(1): Mirror Image, Hold Person, Blindness/Deafness
4th (): Dimension Door

AC 15
HP 83 (Tough, Hill Dwarf) (virtual 172 on average against the Fighter, +100 more for Polymorph)
Move 25' (500' with Dimension Door, or 50' with Expeditious Retreat)

Strategy is if they are super far apart to use Dimension Door to close the gap. Then pepper the Fighter with pact weapon arrows after casting Hex or Blindness on the Fighter. If Dimension Door isn't used, they can use the spell slot on Mirror Image or Expeditious Retreat or use it to polymorph into a Mammoth or T-Rex for another couple hundred temp hp. The Mammoth can dash for 80 feet of movement if Expeditious Retreat is up it can go another 40 feet for a total of 120 feet per round. If the DM allows you could drop your bow and quiver polymorph into a Giant Ape and pick it back up and shoot away.

And that's barring things that would kill a Fighter like casting Fly to get above them and then polymorphing into a Whale that would require the DM to be involved.

Made by MaxWilson (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20757130&postcount=42)
My warlock:
Rolls: 14 15 14 11 10 10
Diana Floralia Minerva, "My father's house will rise again!"
N Human Pythium Noble, Warlock 10
Beautiful, athletic, intelligent, determined, patient, humorless; single-mindedly devoted to restoring the wealth and honor of her fallen bloodline. Chosen avenue: bounty hunting, treasure-hunting
Str 10 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 12 Wis* 10 Cha* (16) 20 HP 73 [* = proficient save]
Skills: Arcana, Intimidation, Stealth, Insight, Perception; Common, Giantish
Pact: Fiend + Chain
Feats (3): Spell Sniper, Cha 16 => 18, Cha 18 => 20
Cantrips (4): Thunderclap, Greenflame Blade, Minor Illusion, Blade Ward
Invocations (5): Voice of the Chain Master, Devil's Sight, Eldritch Spear, Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast
Spells (10): Hex, Armor of Agathys, Fireball, Expeditious Retreat, Fly, Counterspell, Hold Person, Vampiric Touch, Hypnotic Pattern, Dimension Door
Spell points [per short rest]: 14

Made by djreynolds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20792001&postcount=651)
Half Orc 20th level Champion

14/13/15/9/13/8

20/13/16/9/14/8
defensive and duelist style
HP 184
AC 21 with full plate, shield, +1 defensive style
+11 to hit
4 attacks
1d8 rapier +5 and +2
resilient wisdom
defensive duelist
shield master
lucky
mage slayer
ASI strength
ASI strength

Mobile is a nice feat, but I'm just going to hound you.
Shield master for dex evasion and shoving after or before I've swung my rapier 4 times at you in a round.
Defensive duelist, +6 to AC on a reaction, meaning, one melee attack will never land
Mage slayer coupled with proficiency in wis, con, and strength
Lucky, insurance on top of rerolling saves 3xs a day anyhow
resilient wisdom, +8 on wisdom saves along with everything else

Using the dodge action, a lot

Made by Giant2005 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20765040&postcount=178)

Relevant Starting Abilities: 16 Str, 14 Dex, 16 Con, 9 Wis
Race: Variant Human
Archetype: Champion
Feats/ASIs: Tavern Brawler, Resilient: Wis, Tough, +10 ability points
Fighting Styles: Dueling, ?
Relevant Skills: Athletics, Stealth
Final Abilities: 20 Str, 16 Dex, 20 Con, 10 Wis, AC 13, 264 hp

First turn: Ambush the Warlock from Stealth. Stab him with your bottle and hit him with the rock in your other hand in order to figure out which damage is more effective: piercing or bludgeoning. Drop the useless weapon and use your other two actions to knock him prone and grapple him. Use your action surge to beat him senseless with the rock.
Second turn: Beat him more senseless with the rock. Smile as you trigger your action surge to do some more.
Third turn +: Keep beating him with the rock until he is paste.

Assuming the Warlock has 16 AC, you should be inflicting 39.255 DPR against him (or 31.9 if he is using Darkness/Devil's Sight) per attack action, which means he should be long dead before turn 3.
The Warlock will be inflicting 20.275 DPR against the Fighter via EB+Hex, or 18.4 with Darkness/Devil's Sight.

The Warlock doesn't have a lot of hope.

Made by Max Wilson (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20792828&postcount=658)
Rolls: 12, 11, 8, 11, 10, 10
Barton, N human hermit, Moon Druid 10.
Resents human intrusions on wilderness; thinks animals are morally equal to humans; is very willing to drive out settlers/intruders, and will kill if necessary for the "greater good" as measured in terms of total lives
Str 10 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8 HP 63 AC 15
Skills: Survival, Nature, Arcana, Stealth, Perception
Feats: Mobile, Sentinel, Lucky
Equipment: Crossbow, Scimitar (Finesse), Hide Armor, Shield
Cantrips (4): Mold Earth, Shape Water, Thorn Whip, Produce Flame [all used for keeping out humans]
Spells: Darkvision, Spike Growth, Meld Into Stone, Conjure Animals, Greater Restoration, Wall of Flame, Longstrider, Cure Wounds, Healing Word, Call Lightning

Prefers to fight at night when fighting is necessary. Very patient fighting style, opportunistic.
Basic tactics for 1 vs 1 fight during the day (I assume night fighting is irrelevant):
(1) (vs. melee foe in cramped quarters) Longstrider + Conjure Animals V + Giant Constrictor Snake form to restrain enemies/grant advantage to self; OR
(2) (vs. melee foe in open terrain) Longstrider + Call Lightning + stay out of range (Hide if necessary; will discourage pursuit if necessary by Thorn Whip + move 50' away, which denies opportunity attack because of Mobile). Can devolve to #1 if enemy closes the distance.
(3) (vs. ranged foe) Longstrider + Conjure Animals V + Earth Elemental form (burrow beneath earth to get close). Earth Elemental will retain shield from human form (AC 19) and use Earth Glide to melee kite the ranged foe while it deals with the animals.

In all cases, when reduced to 50% HP, Barton will flee and hide, using conjured animals or Spike Growth to cover his escape route. He will take a short rest (either in Earth Elemental form or in a stone via Meld Into Stone) and re-assess his options.

If he gets to influence which animal spirits are conjured, Barton would generally prefer an even mix of Giant Owls and Giant Poisonous Snakes, and will direct the owls to flyby and try to knock the enemy prone first, then all the animals attack at advantage. Once there are only a few animals left (e.g. 2-4 giant owls and no snakes) the Giant Owls will be directed instead to try to grapple the enemy and fly with him up into the air as high as possible while any remaining Giant Owls (besides the successful grappler) continue attacking. Barton will recast Conjure Animals if he is in human form when there are 0-2 animal spirits left alive.

If you want to have your build listed here for this thread, please let me know.

JNAProductions

2016-05-08, 08:56 PM

DeAnno

2016-05-08, 08:59 PM

The Warlock could have Spell Sniper to equalize range, though that's pretty bad in general. More typically, he could be walking around hiding under a cloud of darkness, but that will eventually run out and the Archer can probably kite until then.

NewDM

2016-05-08, 09:00 PM

Build a level 20 fighter and/or a level 10 warlock. Pit them together.

Who wins?

Let's see some actual builds here. No Schrodingers.

All it takes is landing a single Hold Person on the Fighter and its over. They walk up and melee spell critical until the fighter is gone. The fighters 'stay alive' feature will only trigger a few times before it fails. They are not proficient against the Wisdom saving throw and likely dumped the Wisdom stat. This means a DC 17 Wisdom save with a +0 bonus. That's about 15% chance to make the save. If they somehow manage to make the save the Warlock has another slot to do it again. The chance to succeed twice on that save is 2.25%. After about 4 rounds there is a 48% chance they will make at least one save. So the Warlock has about 4 rounds to crit kill the fighter to death. I'd go with pact of the blade and choose the extra attack and the extra charisma damage which will probably be enough to take the fighter out.

Keep in mind the fighter can probably kill the Warlock in 2 rounds of 4 attacks. However the Warlock only has to land a single Hold Person to win and the Warlock will have the higher dexterity so that they will win initiative more often than not.

JNAProductions

2016-05-08, 09:02 PM

All it takes is landing a single Hold Person on the Fighter and its over. They walk up and melee spell critical until the fighter is gone. The fighters 'stay alive' feature will only trigger a few times before it fails. They are not proficient against the Wisdom saving throw and likely dumped the Wisdom stat. This means a DC 17 Wisdom save with a +0 bonus. That's about 15% chance to make the save. If they somehow manage to make the save the Warlock has another slot to do it again. The chance to succeed twice on that save is 2.25%. After about 4 rounds there is a 48% chance they will make at least one save. So the Warlock has about 4 rounds to crit kill the fighter to death. I'd go with pact of the blade and choose the extra attack and the extra charisma damage which will probably be enough to take the fighter out.

Keep in mind the fighter can probably kill the Warlock in 2 rounds of 4 attacks. However the Warlock only has to land a single Hold Person to win and the Warlock will have the higher dexterity so that they will win initiative more often than not.

Um... Wisdom is one of the major saves, and Fighters are both SAD and have extra ASIs. Why would they dump Wisdom and not take Resilient (Wisdom)?

NewDM

2016-05-08, 09:02 PM

Fighter wins. Fighter has Sharpshooter, a Longbow, and a 600' range. Eldritch Blast's range is a mere 120' (300' with Eldritch Spear) meaning the Fighter has at least 4 rounds to wail on the Warlock. (Effectively 6, with Action Surges.)

That's 24 Attacks, hitting on a (AC 13+2=15 for the Warlock, +6 Proficiency+5 Dexterity+2 Archery-5 Precision Shot for +8) 7 (so about 17 hits) for 1d8+15 damage each.

That's 331 damage, not counting any superiority dice, crits, or spells.

The Warlock could have Spell Sniper to equalize range, though that's pretty bad in general. More typically, he could be walking around hiding under a cloud of darkness, but that will eventually run out and the Archer can probably kite until then.

both of these assume they encounter each other at greater than 600 feet. Dimension door reaches 500 feet, but takes a spell slot.

DeAnno

2016-05-08, 09:05 PM

All it takes is landing a single Hold Person on the Fighter and its over. They walk up and melee spell critical until the fighter is gone. The fighters 'stay alive' feature will only trigger a few times before it fails. They are not proficient against the Wisdom saving throw and likely dumped the Wisdom stat. This means a DC 17 Wisdom save with a +0 bonus. That's about 15% chance to make the save. If they somehow manage to make the save the Warlock has another slot to do it again. The chance to succeed twice on that save is 2.25%. After about 4 rounds there is a 48% chance they will make at least one save. So the Warlock has about 4 rounds to crit kill the fighter to death. I'd go with pact of the blade and choose the extra attack and the extra charisma damage which will probably be enough to take the fighter out.

Keep in mind the fighter can probably kill the Warlock in 2 rounds of 4 attacks. However the Warlock only has to land a single Hold Person to win and the Warlock will have the higher dexterity so that they will win initiative more often than not.

If the Fighter is a Monster Hunter he can add his d12 superiority die to his Wisdom save, and if he has Resilient Wis and started with even 11 Wisdom he is rocking a +7 bonus naturally. Throw in the save rerolling feature and it's very risky to rely on such a strategy, not to mention the short range of Hold Person at only 60 feet!

JNAProductions

2016-05-08, 09:06 PM

smcmike

2016-05-08, 09:12 PM

All it takes is landing a single Hold Person on the Fighter and its over. They walk up and melee spell critical until the fighter is gone. The fighters 'stay alive' feature will only trigger a few times before it fails. They are not proficient against the Wisdom saving throw and likely dumped the Wisdom stat. This means a DC 17 Wisdom save with a +0 bonus. That's about 15% chance to make the save. If they somehow manage to make the save the Warlock has another slot to do it again. The chance to succeed twice on that save is 2.25%. After about 4 rounds there is a 48% chance they will make at least one save. So the Warlock has about 4 rounds to crit kill the fighter to death. I'd go with pact of the blade and choose the extra attack and the extra charisma damage which will probably be enough to take the fighter out.

Keep in mind the fighter can probably kill the Warlock in 2 rounds of 4 attacks. However the Warlock only has to land a single Hold Person to win and the Warlock will have the higher dexterity so that they will win initiative more often than not.

Why will the warlock have higher dex? Are dex fighters not a thing? If we are building for PVP, I assume the fighter would go dex, and probably also grab Alert. A Champion would have +13 initiative. I don't think the warlock is getting a turn.

Also, wis isn't the top dump stat in most fighter builds - they've heard of hold person too.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-08, 09:14 PM

And it's not like Hold Person is the end-all be-all anyway; it's a great effect, if it works, but even if the fighter flubs the first save, they still get a chance to make the rest of them.

NewDM

2016-05-08, 09:22 PM

If the Fighter is a Monster Hunter he can add his d12 superiority die to his Wisdom save, and if he has Resilient Wis and started with even 11 Wisdom he is rocking a +7 bonus naturally. Throw in the save rerolling feature and it's very risky to rely on such a strategy, not to mention the short range of Hold Person at only 60 feet!

Yeah, so we are building a fighter specifically to avoid a single spell, I'd say the Warlock won at that point anyway. Not to mention the Warlock can grab a few levels of Sorcerer to give disadvantage on the saving throw with Heightened Spell.

So this build to counter one spell requires:
Archetype
Feat
Save Re-rolling feature(??? what is this called and where is it)

Whereas the Warlock is using:
Pact
1 of 10 spells known and 1 to 2 spell slots
2 Eldritch Invocations (2 attacks and +Cha to damage)

Throw in the Fey Patron and they can teleport and become invisible with Misty Step
Instead grab the Fiend for Fiendish resilience and choose the damage resistance for the weapon the fighter is using, its fair game since the fighter is building against knowing the Warlock has Hold Person.

Other than that if you encounter each other in a normal situation like in most published adventures, the fight will go to whoever gets initiative.

JNAProductions

2016-05-08, 09:22 PM

I posted a Fighter build. Please post a Warlock build that can beat it at level 10.

It's not even optimal-it's a freaking CHAMPION. So should be easy, neh?

emeraldstreak

2016-05-08, 09:23 PM

Build a level 20 fighter and/or a level 10 warlock. Pit them together.

Who wins?

Let's see some actual builds here. No Schrodingers.

LOL

PvP doesn't work like that.

Give pre-knowledge time, pre-buff time, description of the fight's location (unless they have enough pre-knowledge to hunt each other around the world/planes) which includes not only terrain, but lighting, weather, everything relevant, and starting distance.

Either give sources, or all will be allowed.

smcmike

2016-05-08, 09:27 PM

Yeah, so we are building a fighter specifically to avoid a single spell, I'd say the Warlock won at that point anyway. Not to mention the Warlock can grab a few levels of Sorcerer to give disadvantage on the saving throw with Heightened Spell.

Not without ceding this single-class challenge, he can't.

So this build to counter one spell requires:
Archetype
Feat
Save Re-rolling feature(??? what is this called and where is it)

Fortunately, a fighter gets all of those things. And the feature is called Indomitable. The fighter can reroll three saves.

Whereas the Warlock is using:
Pact
1 of 10 spells known and 1 to 2 spell slots
2 Eldritch Invocations (2 attacks and +Cha to damage)

Throw in the Fey Patron and they can teleport and become invisible with Misty Step
Instead grab the Fiend for Fiendish resilience and choose the damage resistance for the weapon the fighter is using, its fair game since the fighter is building against knowing the Warlock has Hold Person.

Fighters generally have ways to deal multiple damage types.

JNAProductions

2016-05-08, 09:29 PM

Fighters generally have ways to deal multiple damage types.

Not so much at range. My build, for instance, only does piercing damage at range.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-08, 09:31 PM

Yeah, so we are building a fighter specifically to avoid a single spell, I'd say the Warlock won at that point anyway. Not to mention the Warlock can grab a few levels of Sorcerer to give disadvantage on the saving throw with Heightened Spell.

Considering that Wisdom saves are among the most common save in the game, I'm fairly certain you won't be taken seriously for suggesting they're doing it to dodge a single particular spell. proficiency in Wisdom saving throws in a good thing to get on any Fighter build, because it's a well-known weakness of most fighters that people will try to exploit.

Other than that if you encounter each other in a normal situation like in most published adventures, the fight will go to whoever gets initiative.

Truly the most relevant part of your post. Either post a full build, or continue arguing about your cat-in-a-box build.

JNAProductions

2016-05-08, 09:40 PM

Warlock (Fiend Pact) 10
Half Elf

Strength 8
Dexterity 16 (15 Base, +1 Race)
Constitution 16 (15 base, +1 race)
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 8
Charisma 20 (14 base, +2 race, +4 ASIs)

Cha +2 (Levels 4, 8)

Invocations known are:
Agonizing Blast
Armor of Shadows
Devil's Sight
Sculptor of Flesh
Minion's of Chaos

Spells known are:
0th
Eldritch Blast
Chill Touch
Blade Ward
True Strike
1st
Armor of Agathys
Hex
Arms of Hadar
2nd
Hold Person
Darkness
3rd
Fly
Vampiric Touch
4th
Dimension Door
Banishment
5th
Hold Monster

With 2 level 5 slots.

Pact of the Tome, learning Shocking Grasp, Thorn Whip, and Shillegah.

Fiend Pact, resistant to piercing damage.

AC 16
HP 83
Move 30'

tieren

2016-05-08, 09:41 PM

The fighter is a gnome with advantage on all int, wis, and CHA saves. The best you can do is negate advantage, you can not impose disadvantage.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-08, 09:43 PM

The fighter is a gnome with advantage on all int, wis, and CHA saves. The best you can do is negate advantage, you can not impose disadvantage.

It's worth mentioning that the fighter build in this thread is a Wood Elf, not a Gnome...unless it was intended to be?

JNAProductions

2016-05-08, 09:45 PM

So now, let's see. Let's assume they start 50' away from each other. Fighter is more likely, by a small margin, to win initiative. But let's assume Warlock wins, just to give them the edge.

They cast Hold Person, DC 17. Fighter has a +8 to save, so needs a 9, and gets a reroll with Indomitable. He saves 60% of the time, upping to 84% with Indomitable.

Fighter than novas, Action Surging for 8 attacks at +8, so needing 8s to hit. Hits 65% of the time, so that's 5 hits, each for 1d8+15 damage. That's 97~98 damage, resisted, so it's really 49. The Warlock is now half-dead. (Fighter also moves 45' away.)

Warlock then has to Dash to get within Hold Person range.

Fighter then Action Surges again and kills the Warlock.

Overall? Fighter has a 84% chance of winning, no questions asked. And even if the Warlock manages a Hold Person, they're still not guaranteed a win.

I intended Wood Elf, for that extra move speed.

Specter

2016-05-08, 09:45 PM

Grod_The_Giant

2016-05-08, 09:52 PM

It's worth mentioning that the fighter build in this thread is a Wood Elf, not a Gnome...unless it was intended to be?
There's no designated build for either class.

I can't see giving this to the Warlock. The original post was citing Darkness, but that's a Concentration spell against a guy who's probably making nine attacks (at a much higher bonus) a round. One or two hits and that's gone, and then you're dead. Save or Lose? Three rerolls a day (more if you take Licky) say "good luck." You've got at best two shots, and the Fighter has what, 200-some hp to your 70ish? He'll kill you in one turn, while you'll need to wail away for a couple even if he's just standing there paralyzed.

JNAProductions

2016-05-08, 09:54 PM

I've posted two builds. Fighter has an 84% chance of winning in two turns (not counting if the Fighter wins initiative) even against a Fiendlock who resists piercing damage.

Addaran

2016-05-08, 09:55 PM

The fighter is an EK. He starts the combat invisible, then stab+ hold person the warlock (with disadvantage!). Then he can just do 4 attacks per round and action surge.

But.... why 20 vs 10? The lvl 20 class will win against a lvl 10 one in like 90% of the matches-up.

tieren

2016-05-08, 09:55 PM

It's worth mentioning that the fighter build in this thread is a Wood Elf, not a Gnome...unless it was intended to be?

Sorry I meant that's how I would do it, not as a reference to the posted build.

I think the biggest differences are the asi's. The warlock has 2 which probably went to stats. The fighter has maxed attack stat and con and plenty left for whatever feats he wants.

Giant2005

2016-05-08, 09:57 PM

Sure Resilient: Wisdom is nice, but it is hardly necessary - JNA's build is evidence enough of that. 204 HP and AC 18 is all you need. Just throw away Resilient: Wis and replace it with nothing and you still have an easy win.
The Warlock would need to manage to keep the Fighter Paralyzed for 7 rounds in order to down the Fighter, and he only has two spell slots to do it with. The Fighter (that doesn't have Resilient: Wis) would have to roll a 15 or higher to save. The odds of him failing to make that roll twice with 11 attempts, are simply too small to care about.

bid

2016-05-08, 09:57 PM

JNAProductions

2016-05-08, 09:59 PM

No setup has been defined.

Chainlock should have an easy time avoiding the fighter until nighttime. Darkness, EB for 10 minutes, dimension door away, short rest and repeat.

Warlock charms a level 20 barbarian, convince him the fighter is a criminal and brings popcorn.

Please define a scenario.

Erm... Even with Darkness, you still need to hide to have him not know where you are. The Fighter might have Disadvantage to hit, but he just drops prone, giving the Warlock Disadvantage as well, and the Fighter has better to hit and more attacks and only slightly less damage (9.5 per hit, as compared to 10.5 for the Warlock).

AvatarVecna

2016-05-08, 10:02 PM

Xetheral

2016-05-08, 10:02 PM

Unless the player behind the warlock is a moron, Warlock. On melee, Darkness and Devil's Sight lock the fighter, and at range those invocations along with Eldritch Spear lock the fighter as well. No need to even use spells (other than EB at range).

Using JNA's builds...

Each attack that the fighter makes against a darkness-shrouded warlock has a 42.4% chance of hitting for 1d8+15 damage, or a 81.1% chance of hitting for 1d8+5. Since the goal is to break concentration, let's go with the latter. That's an average of 3 hits (6 with action surge). The warlock has a 70% chance of making a DC 10 con save to not lose concentration on the darkness spell. So, the Warlock has a 34.3% chance of succeeding at all three saves and keeping darkness up for more than one round (or 11.8% of succeeding all six if the fighter action surges). Not looking good for the strategy of opening the fight by casting darkness.

JNAProductions

2016-05-08, 10:03 PM

Firstly, this is assuming the Warlock wins initiative, which isn't a gimme.

Second, assuming the ranged build already presented, the Warlock can blast up to 2 blasts per turn at the Fighter; the Fighter isn't a particular melee monster, so they would probably stay outside of the Darkness, meaning the Warlock isn't getting advantage to attack them.

Thirdly, the Fighter has no reason not to use to the Dodge action and their level 18 Regen feature to tank the 2 EBs per round and wait it out.

The Warlock has a +9 (with disadvantage) to hit AC 18; that means that out of 400 attacks, 1 would be a crit, 143 would be hits, and 256 would be misses; assuming the Warlock build presented in this thread, that's 1d10+1d6+5 (assuming hex) on a hit, and double dice on a crit. Thus, average damage is 5.06 ({[1*22]+[143*14]+[256*0]}/400), which is perfectly respectable...until the Regeneration kicks in halfway down their HP track, and they're getting healed 9 points every round. That's gonna be hard to keep up with; you'll need a lot of luck. And that Darkness spell don't last forever, even if the Fighter never fires into it blindly...which they likely will, all things considered.

Nah, Fighter just goes Prone. That gives ranged attacks disadvantage, and the Fighter can still shoot into the Darkness.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-08, 10:04 PM

Using JNA's builds...

Each attack that the fighter makes against a darkness-shrouded warlock has a 42.4% chance of hitting for 1d8+15 damage, or a 81.1% chance of hitting for 1d8+5. Since the goal is to break concentration, let's go with the latter. That's an average of 3 hits (6 with action surge). The warlock has a 70% chance of making a DC 10 con save to not lose concentration on the darkness spell. So, the Warlock has a 34.3% chance of succeeding at all three saves and keeping darkness up for more than one round (or 11.8% of succeeding all six if the fighter action surges). Not looking good for the strategy of opening the fight by casting darkness.

To be entirely fair to the Warlock, their chances of making the save get a good deal better if they have the War Caster feat.

tieren

2016-05-08, 10:04 PM

JNAProductions

2016-05-08, 10:05 PM

Not even, just use lucky feat to roll an extra to hit die and pick which one you use, turns disadvantage in magical darkness to superadvantage.

My build does not have Lucky. But you could certainly have it, just replace Mobile or Resilient.

Xetheral

2016-05-08, 10:08 PM

To be entirely fair to the Warlock, their chances of making the save get a good deal better if they have the War Caster feat.

True, but JNA's builds did not. If the warlock *did* have Warcaster, or Resilient (Con), then it will have a lower charisma, worse odds to hit, and less damage.

Also, even with Warcaster, the warlock still only manages to succeed all three saves 75% of the time (and all six saves only 56% of the time).

AvatarVecna

2016-05-08, 10:08 PM

Nah, Fighter just goes Prone. That gives ranged attacks disadvantage, and the Fighter can still shoot into the Darkness.

Fair enough. It's worth mentioning, though, that my math was a bit off, because I forgot that it's multiple attacks a round...so the Warlock will average 10.12 DPR, which is enough to eventually brute-force your way past the Fighter's Regen...but it's a long road ahead.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-08, 10:10 PM

True, but JNA's builds did not. If the warlock *did* have Warcaster, or Resilient (Con), then it will have a lower charisma, worse odds to hit, and less damage.

Also, even with Warcaster, the warlock still only manages to succeed all three saves 75% of the time (and all six saves only 56% of the time).

True enough, true enough.

mgshamster

2016-05-08, 10:28 PM

But.... why 20 vs 10? The lvl 20 class will win against a lvl 10 one in like 90% of the matches-up.

Because in another thread someone said the warlock was so over powered that it could beat a level 20 fighter even at level 10.

So instead of derailing that thread, I started a new one where we could play around with the idea.

NewDM

2016-05-08, 10:29 PM

Right, actual build time.

Fighter (Champion) 20
Wood Elf

Strength 9
Dexterity 20 (14 Base, +2 Race, +4 ASIs)
Constitution 18 (14 base, +4 ASIs)
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 14 (12 base, +1 Race, +1 Feat)
Charisma 12

Dex +2 (Levels 4, 6)
Sharpshooter (Level 8)
Resilient (Wsidom) (Level 12)
Con +2 (Levels 14, 16)
Mobile (level 19)

Armed with Studded Leather and a Longbow. Has the Defensive and Archery Fighting styles.

AC 18
HP 204
Move 45'

Easily capable of kiting the Warlock indefinitely, plinking away at range whenever the Warlock is far enough away. And honestly? Even in a straight, toe-to-toe shootout, my money is on the Fighter.

Yep so we have the psychic fighter. See my build below.

Why will the warlock have higher dex? Are dex fighters not a thing? If we are building for PVP, I assume the fighter would go dex, and probably also grab Alert. A Champion would have +13 initiative. I don't think the warlock is getting a turn.

Also, wis isn't the top dump stat in most fighter builds - they've heard of hold person too.

Sure if you are building a fighter that can specifically take out a Warlock and psychically knows every feature of the Warlock, and their tactics. This isn't Schrodinger's Fighter here.

And it's not like Hold Person is the end-all be-all anyway; it's a great effect, if it works, but even if the fighter flubs the first save, they still get a chance to make the rest of them.

Unless they are specifically built to counter it the average fighter will have a 15% chance to succeed on the save and the Warlock will get crit damage and 2 attacks every round on the fighter chewing through its hit points pretty fast.

Here's my psychic Warlock build to counter the Fighter build posted above to counter Hold Person:

Warlock (Pact of the Blade, Fiend Patron) 10
Hill Dwarf
Dwarf Weapon Proficiencies
Dwarven Resilience (+1 hp per level)

Strength 9
Dexterity 14
Constitution 18 (15 base, +2 Race, +1 ASI)
Intelligence 9
Wisdom 9 (8 base, +1 Race)
Charisma 16 (+1 ASI)

Feats/ASI:
Tough (+2 hp per level)
Ability Score Increase (+1 Con, +1 Cha)

Armed with Mage Armor and a Pact Weapon Longbow (proficient as per Jeremy Crawford ranged weapons are allowed).

Important Class Features: Dark Ones Own Luck (add 1d10 to ability check or save), Fiendish Resilience (resistance against piercing damage).

Invocations: Fiendish Vigor (At-Will False Life, up at start of combat since there is no down side to having it up at all times +1d4+4 temp hp), Sculptor of Flesh (Mammoth, T-Rex), Thirsting Blade (2 attacks with pact weapon per round), Mire the Mind (Cast Slow with a spell slot), (??? don't care about 5th one)

Spells (2 spell slots up to 5th):
1st(1): Armor of Agythys (25 temp hp), Expeditious Retreat (+30 move speed), Hex (+1d6 damage)
2nd(1): Mirror Image, Hold Person, Blindness/Deafness
4th (): Dimension Door

AC 15
HP 83 (Tough, Hill Dwarf) (virtual 172 on average against the Fighter, +100 more for Polymorph)
Move 25' (500' with Dimension Door, or 50' with Expeditious Retreat)

Strategy is if they are super far apart to use Dimension Door to close the gap. Then pepper the Fighter with pact weapon arrows after casting Hex or Blindness on the Fighter. If Dimension Door isn't used, they can use the spell slot on Mirror Image or Expeditious Retreat or use it to polymorph into a Mammoth or T-Rex for another couple hundred temp hp. The Mammoth can dash for 80 feet of movement if Expeditious Retreat is up it can go another 40 feet for a total of 120 feet per round. If the DM allows you could drop your bow and quiver polymorph into a Giant Ape and pick it back up and shoot away.

And that's barring things that would kill a Fighter like casting Fly to get above them and then polymorphing into a Whale that would require the DM to be involved.

JNAProductions

2016-05-08, 10:32 PM

Fighter can kite him still, has superior range, and even with resistance, superior damage.

Edit: Also, can't use Expeditious and Polymorph at the same time. Both are Concentration.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-08, 10:33 PM

Yep so we have the psychic fighter. See my build below.

Sure if you are building a fighter that can specifically take out a Warlock and psychically knows every feature of the Warlock, and their tactics. This isn't Schrodinger's Fighter here.

Unless they are specifically built to counter it the average fighter will have a 15% chance to succeed on the save and the Warlock will get crit damage and 2 attacks every round on the fighter chewing through its hit points pretty fast.

Here's my psychic Warlock build to counter the Fighter build posted above to counter Hold Person:

Warlock (Pact of the Blade, Fiend Patron) 10
Hill Dwarf
Dwarf Weapon Proficiencies
Dwarven Resilience (+1 hp per level)

Strength 9
Dexterity 14
Constitution 18 (15 base, +2 Race, +1 ASI)
Intelligence 9
Wisdom 9 (8 base, +1 Race)
Charisma 16 (+1 ASI)

Feats/ASI:
Tough (+2 hp per level)
Ability Score Increase (+1 Con, +1 Cha)

Armed with Mage Armor and a Pact Weapon Longbow (proficient as per Jeremy Crawford ranged weapons are allowed).

Important Class Features: Dark Ones Own Luck (add 1d10 to ability check or save), Fiendish Resilience (resistance against piercing damage).

Invocations: Fiendish Vigor (At-Will False Life, up at start of combat since there is no down side to having it up at all times +1d4+4 temp hp), Sculptor of Flesh (Mammoth, T-Rex), Thirsting Blade (2 attacks with pact weapon per round), Mire the Mind (Cast Slow with a spell slot), (??? don't care about 5th one)

Spells (2 spell slots up to 5th):
1st(1): Armor of Agythys (25 temp hp), Expeditious Retreat (+30 move speed), Hex (+1d6 damage)
2nd(1): Mirror Image, Hold Person, Blindness/Deafness
4th (): Dimension Door

AC 15
HP 83 (Tough, Hill Dwarf) (virtual 172 on average against the Fighter, +100 more for Polymorph)
Move 25' (500' with Dimension Door, or 50' with Expeditious Retreat)

Strategy is if they are super far apart to use Dimension Door to close the gap. Then pepper the Fighter with pact weapon arrows after casting Hex or Blindness on the Fighter. If Dimension Door isn't used, they can use the spell slot on Mirror Image or Expeditious Retreat or use it to polymorph into a Mammoth or T-Rex for another couple hundred temp hp. The Mammoth can dash for 80 feet of movement if Expeditious Retreat is up it can go another 40 feet for a total of 120 feet per round. If the DM allows you could drop your bow and quiver polymorph into a Giant Ape and pick it back up and shoot away.

And that's barring things that would kill a Fighter like casting Fly to get above them and then polymorphing into a Whale that would require the DM to be involved.

You're still ignoring that a Fighter taking Resilient: Wisdom is not a Fighter doing something to specifically counter Hold Person, it's a Fighter doing something to counter the vast majority of effects in the game that can still threaten it; it's not a Fighter intentionally choosing something specifically to screw over Warlocks.

EDIT: I only mention it because you're using it as an excuse to build a build that's specifically built to fight this Fighter...and not even that well.

MaxWilson

2016-05-08, 10:36 PM

Build a level 20 fighter and/or a level 10 warlock. Pit them together.

Who wins?

Let's see some actual builds here. No Schrodingers.

My fighter:
Rolls: 13 13 8 11 12 15
Degalus Magnus Benedictus, small, solid-looking man with a square face and an open manner.
LG Human Baker/Retired soldier (Pythium army), Eldritch Knight 20
Str* 11 Dex (16) 20 Con* 14 Int 12 Wis* (13) 14 Cha 8 HP 164 [* = proficient save]
Good-natured, kind, earnest, trusting; naturally quiet, but likes to talk about his wife and kids back home to anyone who asks about them; socially-awkward, unable to let a joke die. Doesn't trust most Pythium aristocrats--"they only care about each other."
Skills: Athletics, Acrobatics, Perception, Stealth, Insight; baker's tools, poisoner's kit; Common, Dwarvish
Feats (8): Sharpshooter, Dex 16 => 18, Dex 18 => 20, Alert, Mobile, Lucky, Resilient (Wis), Warcaster
Cantrips (3): Mold Earth [for digging in fortifications], False Fetters [née Booming Blade], Prestidigitation [great for cleaning baking implements]
Spells (13): Darkness, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Shield, Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Fire Shield, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Fireball, Expeditious Retreat*, Magic Weapon*, Blink*, Dimension Door* [* = non-evoc/abj]
Spell points: 38

My warlock:
Rolls: 14 15 14 11 10 10
Diana Floralia Minerva, "My father's house will rise again!"
N Human Pythium Noble, Warlock 10
Beautiful, athletic, intelligent, determined, patient, humorless; single-mindedly devoted to restoring the wealth and honor of her fallen bloodline. Chosen avenue: bounty hunting, treasure-hunting
Str 10 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 12 Wis* 10 Cha* (16) 20 HP 73 [* = proficient save]
Skills: Arcana, Intimidation, Stealth, Insight, Perception; Common, Giantish
Pact: Fiend + Chain
Feats (3): Spell Sniper, Cha 16 => 18, Cha 18 => 20
Cantrips (4): Thunderclap, Greenflame Blade, Minor Illusion, Blade Ward
Invocations (5): Voice of the Chain Master, Devil's Sight, Eldritch Spear, Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast
Spells (10): Hex, Armor of Agathys, Fireball, Expeditious Retreat, Fly, Counterspell, Hold Person, Vampiric Touch, Hypnotic Pattern, Dimension Door
Spell points [per short rest]: 14

For the sake of the scenario, we'll say this is a "friendly" duel between professional colleagues of sorts, a sort of training exercise (w/ healers on staff to minimize accidental deaths). It's an outdoor area, several acres in size, like a paintball field. In fact, let's make this a capture-the-flag challenge: you win by knocking the other guy out OR capturing his flag and taking it to your objective.

Early game: Minerva casta Armor of Agathys V and then Flies 20' up into a tree to observe, Degalus Mage Armors himself, dumps a bunch of dirt on his flag to conceal it, and then stealthily races off into the trees (w/ Expeditious Retreat up) to try to snag her flag first.
She spends: 12 spell points
He spends: 4 spell points

Her stealth roll: d20+6 (18, does not beat his passive Perception)
His stealth roll: d20+11 (29, beats her passive Perception)

Contact, round 1:
Degalus spots Minerva hovering in a tree, halts right there to exploit the opportunity.
Degalus' declared action: headshot Minerva until she falls out of the sky, Action surging if necessary, then shoot her some more if she looks still conscious, then move towards her flag and drop prone
Minerva's declared action: implicit delay due to not being aware of the threat
Degalus has +8 to hit, does d8+15 damage per hit. Minerva has AC 14. He needs 6 or better, and gets advantage on his first shot.
Rolls: hit (5) for 20, then she rolls concentration (d20+2 (8, failure)) and falls 20' for 5 points of damage, and she's now prone but still conscious. So he shoots again and hits (12) for 18, misses (1), hits (12) for 19. At this point she's taken 62 points of damage but is still conscious, so he Action surges for a hit (9) for 16, which drops her down to 0 HP so he stops shooting, moves towards her flag, drops prone, and waits to see if she was faking him out. Medical personnel approach to find her well on her way to stabilizing on her own, but they Healing Word her up anyway and she gets up, walks over to Degalus, and shakes his hand. He acknowledges warily but respectfully and they clear the field for the next pair of combatants.

Edit: whoops, forgot about her temp HP and presumable resistance to piercing damage. Re-computing, I'm going to assume that she's out of sling range (120'), so his damage is all piercing:
She takes 10 damage on the first hit, then fails concentration and falls for 5. Then she takes 9, 9, 8 (halving the damage rolled previously) for 41 points of damage, 25 of which came out of Armor of Agathys, so now she's down 16 HP to 57 and he still has three more shots because he doesn't stop shooting until she's at zero. But as it turns out, he rolls exactly 3 on all three of those shots (go figure), so now he's prone and it's her turn.

She's got enough juice left in her for a Hex spell [last 2 spell points] but he's out of Hex range (because sling range > Hex range) so:
Minerva's declared action: fire back w/ Eldritch Blast and duck behind a tree.
Rolls: she's got +9 to hit and his AC (not using a shield because bow) is 18, so she needs a 9 or better at disadvantage. Out of four shots, she hits on one for 12 points of damage. (Rolls: hit (9) for 12, misses 1, 4, 4). He rolls (d20+8 (14)) on his concentration check and passes.

She's at 57 HP, he's at 152 HP.

Round 2. They have the same Int so must declare actions simultaneously.
Degalus' declared action: sprint towards her flag (100' total movement after getting up from prone + Expeditious Retreat bonus action), and use item manipulation to stow bow, then drop prone
Minerva's declared action: delay

Degalus completes his sprint and is now only 60' away from the flag and 80' from Minerva at the base of the tree, lying prone

Minerva's declared action: Hex + Eldritch Blast (disadvantage because he's prone), then get behind a tree again. She's skinny enough that it's partial cover unless he moves at least 40', but he can, so she also drops prone.
Rolls: 1, 3, 2, 5, all misses.

She's at 57 HP, he's at 152 HP.

Round 3.
Degalus' declared action: delay
Minerva's declared action: same as last time, get to her feet, Hex + Eldritch Blast (disadvantage), drop prone again behind the tree.

Rolls: she hits (19) for 10, misses (2), hits (16) for 15, misses (5). Degalus rolls a 17, 17 for concentration checks.

Degalus' declared action: get to his feet, move 60' to her flag, pull out a sling, and headshot her (at disadvantage, d4+15 on a hit) four times, Action surging if necessary to do it again, then drop prone.
Rolls: hit (9) for 17, hit (8) for 19, hit (7) for 17, miss (4), hit (11) for 17 and she's down.

She's at 0 HP, he's at 127 HP.

As before, she gets healed and they shake hands.

JoeJ

2016-05-08, 10:38 PM

Armed with Mage Armor and a Pact Weapon Longbow (proficient as per Jeremy Crawford ranged weapons are allowed).

If the warlock gets a magic item, doesn't the fighter get one too?

JNAProductions

2016-05-08, 10:39 PM

Pact Weapon is a class feature, not an item. It's cool.

bid

2016-05-08, 10:41 PM

Each attack that the fighter makes against a darkness-shrouded warlock has a 42.4% chance of hitting for 1d8+15 damage, or a 81.1% chance of hitting for 1d8+5.
Not really, you will automatically miss if you aim at the wrong spot.

JNAProductions

2016-05-08, 10:42 PM

Not really, you will automatically miss if you aim at the wrong spot.

But, unless you use your action to hide, you still know what spot they're in.

bid

2016-05-08, 10:42 PM

Pact Weapon is a class feature, not an item. It's cool.
Pact weapon can't do bow without a real magic weapon.

Naanomi

2016-05-08, 10:44 PM

Pact Weapon is a class feature, not an item. It's cool.
It can only be a ranged weapon if it is a bound real magic item, the base ability can't be a ranged weapon

Edit: too slow!

AvatarVecna

2016-05-08, 10:44 PM

Pact weapon can't do bow without a real magic weapon.

As NewDM mentioned in the quoted section, one of the edition writers has confirmed that it's supposed to work with ranged weapons, and their word is accepted as errata (or is official errata, I forget which).

JoeJ

2016-05-08, 10:45 PM

Pact Weapon is a class feature, not an item. It's cool.

Melee pact weapon is a class feature. Missile weapons can't be pact weapons unless they're magical.

As NewDM mentioned in the quoted section, one of the edition writers has confirmed that it's supposed to work with ranged weapons, and their word is accepted as errata (or is official errata, I forget which).

That's in the April Sage Advice, and it's magical missile weapons only.

JNAProductions

2016-05-08, 10:45 PM

Look, the Warlock is getting its ass kicked either way. Why not let them have a longbow? Hell, they don't even need a magic one-the Fighter has no resistance to non-magic damage.

NewDM

2016-05-08, 10:47 PM

Erm... Even with Darkness, you still need to hide to have him not know where you are. The Fighter might have Disadvantage to hit, but he just drops prone, giving the Warlock Disadvantage as well, and the Fighter has better to hit and more attacks and only slightly less damage (9.5 per hit, as compared to 10.5 for the Warlock).

Nope.

"Darkness creates a heavily obscured area. Characters face darkness outdoors at night (even most moonlit nights). within the confines of an unlit dungeon or a subterranean vault, or in an area of magical darkness."

"A heavily obscured area-such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage-blocks vision entirely. A creature in a heavily obscured area effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see appendix A)"

"BLINDED

A blinded creature can't see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage. and the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage.

"

They would have to guess where the Warlock is in the darkness, they would have disadvantage on attacks and the Warlocks attacks have advantage.

So now, let's see. Let's assume they start 50' away from each other. Fighter is more likely, by a small margin, to win initiative. But let's assume Warlock wins, just to give them the edge.

They cast Hold Person, DC 17. Fighter has a +8 to save, so needs a 9, and gets a reroll with Indomitable. He saves 60% of the time, upping to 84% with Indomitable.

Fighter than novas, Action Surging for 8 attacks at +8, so needing 8s to hit. Hits 65% of the time, so that's 5 hits, each for 1d8+15 damage. That's 97~98 damage, resisted, so it's really 49. The Warlock is now half-dead. (Fighter also moves 45' away.)

Warlock then has to Dash to get within Hold Person range.

Fighter then Action Surges again and kills the Warlock.

Sorry this wouldn't happen the Warlock would use another strategy at this point like Dodge and move, or Darkness or Polymorph (T-Rex).

Overall? Fighter has a 84% chance of winning, no questions asked. And even if the Warlock manages a Hold Person, they're still not guaranteed a win.

I intended Wood Elf, for that extra move speed.

If they manage a Hold Person they can wail on the fighter until the Fighter saves.

Sure Resilient: Wisdom is nice, but it is hardly necessary - JNA's build is evidence enough of that. 204 HP and AC 18 is all you need. Just throw away Resilient: Wis and replace it with nothing and you still have an easy win.
The Warlock would need to manage to keep the Fighter Paralyzed for 7 rounds in order to down the Fighter, and he only has two spell slots to do it with. The Fighter (that doesn't have Resilient: Wis) would have to roll a 15 or higher to save. The odds of him failing to make that roll twice with 11 attempts, are simply too small to care about.

7 Rounds is doable with 2 slots if the Fighter is saving a +0. One spell will give around 4 failed saving throws just over half the time.

JNAProductions

2016-05-08, 10:49 PM

Nope.

"Darkness creates a heavily obscured area. Characters face darkness outdoors at night (even most moonlit nights). within the confines of an unlit dungeon or a subterranean vault, or in an area of magical darkness."

"A heavily obscured area-such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage-blocks vision entirely. A creature in a heavily obscured area effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see appendix A)"

"BLINDED

A blinded creature can't see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage. and the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage.

"

They would have to guess where the Warlock is in the darkness, they would have disadvantage on attacks and the Warlocks attacks have advantage.

Sorry this wouldn't happen the Warlock would use another strategy at this point like Dodge and move, or Darkness or Polymorph (T-Rex).

If they manage a Hold Person they can wail on the fighter until the Fighter saves.

7 Rounds is doable with 2 slots if the Fighter is saving a +0. One spell will give around 4 failed saving throws just over half the time.

Bolded the important bit. Wisdom saves are both COMMON and IMPORTANT. Not taking Resilient Wisdom is dumb. So a good level 20 Fighter will have around a +8.

NewDM, please use one of the listed builds or make your own.

Giant2005

2016-05-08, 10:53 PM

Pact Weapon is a class feature, not an item. It's cool.

It is stupid, but according to Crawford, the Warlock can make a magical ranged weapon his pact weapon, but not a non-magical ranged weapon.
Not that it matters anyway, considering that even if he could bond with a normal bow, nothing that was posted comes even close to closing the gap.

Xetheral

2016-05-08, 10:53 PM

Not really, you will automatically miss if you aim at the wrong spot.

The warlock is either carrying the target of the darkness with him (in which case the warlock is located at exact the center of the darkness) or the darkness is immobile, and the fighter just leaves and waits for the darkness to expire.

Second, as JNA pointed out, under many interpretations of the (highly controversial) hiding rules, the location of all non-hidden creatures is automatically known, even when they can't be seen. (I don't rule that way, but it's a common interpretation.)

Nope.

"Darkness creates a heavily obscured area. Characters face darkness outdoors at night (even most moonlit nights). within the confines of an unlit dungeon or a subterranean vault, or in an area of magical darkness."

"A heavily obscured area-such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage-blocks vision entirely. A creature in a heavily obscured area effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see appendix A)"

"BLINDED

A blinded creature can't see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage. and the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage.

"

First, don't forget the errata. Second, whether or not blind characters automatically know the location of non-hidden opponents is very much an open (and unresolvable) question.

mgshamster

2016-05-08, 10:55 PM

My fighter:
Rolls: 13 13 8 11 12 15
Degalus Magnus Benedictus, small, solid-looking man with a square face and an open manner.
LG Human Baker/Retired soldier (Pythium army), Eldritch Knight 20
Str* 11 Dex (16) 20 Con* 14 Int 12 Wis* (13) 14 Cha 8 HP 164 [* = proficient save]
Good-natured, kind, earnest, trusting; naturally quiet, but likes to talk about his wife and kids back home to anyone who asks about them; socially-awkward, unable to let a joke die. Doesn't trust most Pythium aristocrats--"they only care about each other."
Skills: Athletics, Acrobatics, Perception, Stealth, Insight; baker's tools, poisoner's kit; Common, Dwarvish
Feats (8): Sharpshooter, Dex 16 => 18, Dex 18 => 20, Alert, Mobile, Lucky, Resilient (Wis), Warcaster
Cantrips (3): Mold Earth [for digging in fortifications], False Fetters [née Booming Blade], Prestidigitation [great for cleaning baking implements]
Spells (13): Darkness, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Shield, Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Fire Shield, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Fireball, Expeditious Retreat*, Magic Weapon*, Blink*, Dimension Door* [* = non-evoc/abj]
Spell points: 38

My warlock:
Rolls: 14 15 14 11 10 10
Diana Floralia Minerva, "My father's house will rise again!"
N Human Pythium Noble, Warlock 10
Beautiful, athletic, intelligent, determined, patient, humorless; single-mindedly devoted to restoring the wealth and honor of her fallen bloodline. Chosen avenue: bounty hunting, treasure-hunting
Str 10 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 12 Wis* 10 Cha* (16) 20 HP 73 [* = proficient save]
Skills: Arcana, Intimidation, Stealth, Insight, Perception; Common, Giantish
Pact: Fiend + Chain
Feats (3): Spell Sniper, Cha 16 => 18, Cha 18 => 20
Cantrips (4): Thunderclap, Greenflame Blade, Minor Illusion, Blade Ward
Invocations (5): Voice of the Chain Master, Devil's Sight, Eldritch Spear, Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast
Spells (10): Hex, Armor of Agathys, Fireball, Expeditious Retreat, Fly, Counterspell, Hold Person, Vampiric Touch, Hypnotic Pattern, Dimension Door
Spell points [per short rest]: 14

For the sake of the scenario, we'll say this is a "friendly" duel between professional colleagues of sorts, a sort of training exercise (w/ healers on staff to minimize accidental deaths). It's an outdoor area, several acres in size, like a paintball field. In fact, let's make this a capture-the-flag challenge: you win by knocking the other guy out OR capturing his flag and taking it to your objective.

Early game: Minerva casta Armor of Agathys V and then Flies 20' up into a tree to observe, Degalus Mage Armors himself, dumps a bunch of dirt on his flag to conceal it, and then stealthily races off into the trees (w/ Expeditious Retreat up) to try to snag her flag first.
She spends: 12 spell points
He spends: 4 spell points

Her stealth roll: d20+6 (18, does not beat his passive Perception)
His stealth roll: d20+11 (29, beats her passive Perception)

Contact, round 1:
Degalus spots Minerva hovering in a tree, halts right there to exploit the opportunity.
Degalus' declared action: headshot Minerva until she falls out of the sky, Action surging if necessary, then shoot her some more if she looks still conscious, then move towards her flag and drop prone
Minerva's declared action: implicit delay due to not being aware of the threat
Degalus has +8 to hit, does d8+15 damage per hit. Minerva has AC 14. He needs 6 or better, and gets advantage on his first shot.
Rolls: hit (5) for 20, then she rolls concentration (d20+2 (8, failure)) and falls 20' for 5 points of damage, and she's now prone but still conscious. So he shoots again and hits (12) for 18, misses (1), hits (12) for 19. At this point she's taken 62 points of damage but is still conscious, so he Action surges for a hit (9) for 16, which drops her down to 0 HP so he stops shooting, moves towards her flag, drops prone, and waits to see if she was faking him out. Medical personnel approach to find her well on her way to stabilizing on her own, but they Healing Word her up anyway and she gets up, walks over to Degalus, and shakes his hand. He acknowledges warily but respectfully and they clear the field for the next pair of combatants.

Cool scenario!

A couple of questions - you say Benedictus needs a six to hit, and you had him hitting on a five. Typo?

When Minerva drops prone after the fall, did you remember that Benedictus should be firing at disadvantage?

NewDM

2016-05-08, 10:59 PM

But, unless you use your action to hide, you still know what spot they're in.

Nope. You would have to do a passive perception check to see where they are especially if you are far away.

"Perception. Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses."

"What Can You See? One of the main factors in determining whether you can find a hidden creature or object is how well you can see in an area, which might be lightly or heavily obscured, as explained in chapter 8."

"The most fundamental tasks of adventuring-noticing danger, finding hidden objects, hitting an enemy in combat, and targeting a spell, to name just a few rely heavily on a character's ability to see. Darkness and other effects that obscure vision can prove a significant hindrance."

"Darkness creates a heavily obscured area."

"A heavily obscured area-such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage-blocks vision entirely. A creature in a heavily obscured area effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see appendix A)"

"When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see."

"BLINDED

A blinded creature can't see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight. Attack rolls against the creature have advantage. and the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage.

"

As to the Pact weapon, yep. It'd have to be magical. If its not then go with EB shenanigans.

Giant2005

2016-05-08, 11:01 PM

7 Rounds is doable with 2 slots if the Fighter is saving a +0. One spell will give around 4 failed saving throws just over half the time.

It is, but no Fighter in the history has ever considered Wisdom to be a dump stat, or even needed it to be a dump stat considering they are a SAD class with more Feats/ASIs than they need.
Taking Resilient: Wisdom isn't a certainty, but was is certain is that dumping Wis and not taking Resilient: Wisdom isn't even a consideration.

If we are talking a Competent level 10 Warlock vs a competent level 20 Fighter, then the Warlock has no chance at all. Although I do agree that a level 10 Warlock would stand a solid chance against an incompetent level 20 Fighter if that is the real question that is supposed to be asked here.

NewDM

2016-05-08, 11:03 PM

Bolded the important bit. Wisdom saves are both COMMON and IMPORTANT. Not taking Resilient Wisdom is dumb. So a good level 20 Fighter will have around a +8.

NewDM, please use one of the listed builds or make your own.

JNA please read the post I was responding to. They suggested not taking Resilient(Wisdom) which would mean a +0 Wisdom saving throw for the Fighter.

MaxWilson

2016-05-08, 11:05 PM

Cool scenario!

A couple of questions - you say Benedictus needs a six to hit, and you had him hitting on a five. Typo?

When Minerva drops prone after the fall, did you remember that Benedictus should be firing at disadvantage?

My bad on the five hit--that was before I remembered to take her Dex into account. I rolled again to account for his advantage (since it was the first shot) and he got a 19, so doesn't change anything. (Could have also used his Lucky die there to smooth things over.)

Yes, I did inflict disadvantage on him on followup hits, which is why he rolled so many 3s, but I forgot to take her temp HP and piercing resist into account. Edited the post to revise the battle. It ends up being three rounds long instead of one, and he lost about 24 HP. Edit: I have no clue why I neglected to have him Shield against her hits. Also, I totally forgot to have him cast Blink before streaking off to fetch the flag. Maybe he didn't think it would be necessary.

Edit2: and I forgot to add in her Hex damage after she cast Hex. That adds another 13 HP damage, so he lost 37 total, which means that even after Second Wind at the end of combat he will still be down 14 HP.

Giant2005

2016-05-08, 11:06 PM

JNA please read the post I was responding to. They suggested not taking Resilient(Wisdom) which would mean a +0 Wisdom saving throw for the Fighter.

I didn't suggest not taking Resilient: Wis, I opted to point out that your hypothesis of a fighter not taking Resilient:Wis wouldn't make a difference. I also cited JNA's build, which had a +2 Wisdom bonus, not a +0 like what you made up all on your own.

NewDM

2016-05-08, 11:06 PM

It is, but no Fighter in the history has ever considered Wisdom to be a dump stat, or even needed it to be a dump stat considering they are a SAD class with more Feats/ASIs than they need.
Taking Resilient: Wisdom isn't a certainty, but was is certain is that dumping Wis and not taking Resilient: Wisdom isn't even a consideration.

If we are talking a Competent level 10 Warlock vs a competent level 20 Fighter, then the Warlock has no chance at all. Although I do agree that a level 10 Warlock would stand a solid chance against an incompetent level 20 Fighter if that is the real question that is supposed to be asked here.

Where is this grand study you've done to come up with the idea that Fighters don't use Wisdom as a dump stat?

They usually max out Strength (or Dexterity) and Constitution and maybe throw a 12 in Wisdom, maybe. Then they usually use most feats to continue to boost Strength (or Dexterity) to max which is 2 ASI's. Then they use the rest of their feats on things like Heavy Armor Master, Great Weapon Master, or the chain of Ranged attack feats.

NewDM

2016-05-08, 11:07 PM

I didn't suggest not taking Resilient: Wis, I opted to point out that your hypothesis of a fighter not taking Resilient:Wis wouldn't make a difference. I also cited JNA's build, which had a +2 Wisdom bonus, not a +0 like what you made up all on your own.

JNA's build was specifically made to counter Hold Person and other Wisdom saving throw spells.

Giant2005

2016-05-08, 11:13 PM

Where is this grand study you've done to come up with the idea that Fighters don't use Wisdom as a dump stat?

They usually max out Strength (or Dexterity) and Constitution and maybe throw a 12 in Wisdom, maybe. Then they usually use most feats to continue to boost Strength (or Dexterity) to max which is 2 ASI's. Then they use the rest of their feats on things like Heavy Armor Master, Great Weapon Master, or the chain of Ranged attack feats.

Okay, so using point buy, they spend 9 points raising their Dex to 15, they spend 9 points raising their Con to 15, and then they try to take the remaining 9 points in the hopes of trading it for ale?
Either they try to tade it for ale, they blow it all on stats they have no use for (Str/Int/Cha), or they use it on the one final stat that they have an actual use for (Wis). I tend to think the latter option is the most likely, but I could see a fighter being so into ale that he would be willing to trade his potential wisdom for it.

bid

2016-05-08, 11:17 PM

Because in another thread someone said the warlock was so over powered that it could beat a level 20 fighter even at level 10.

So instead of derailing that thread, I started a new one where we could play around with the idea.
This explains a lot. Maybe you pal from the other thread could come up with the scenario then?

Even with uncontested short rests every 10 minutes of combat, I'm not sure the warlock can whittle down the fighter before the day ends.

The best way seems to be:
- chainlock to spy,
- level 11 for a 3rd slot used to hex,
- greater invisibility in to surprise the fighter,
- 50% EB hit for 14 damage per turn,
- 50% arrow hit for 20 damage per turn,
- dimension door out to disengage safely,
- fighter too lazy to action surge,
- fighter too lazy to try to stop the short rest

You need 2 turns to beat the 25 hp heal from second wind: total 3 damage.
Even with surprise, no action surge and so lazy you only fire until you hit once, fighter does 10 damage.

NewDM

2016-05-08, 11:22 PM

Okay, so using point buy, they spend 9 points raising their Dex to 15, they spend 9 points raising their Con to 15, and then they try to take the remaining 9 points in the hopes of trading it for ale?
Either they try to tade it for ale, they blow it all on stats they have no use for (Str/Int/Cha), or they use it on the one final stat that they have an actual use for (Wis). I tend to think the latter option is the most likely, but I could see a fighter being so into ale that he would be willing to trade his potential wisdom for it.

This explains a lot. Maybe you pal from the other thread could come up with the scenario then?

Even with uncontested short rests every 10 minutes of combat, I'm not sure the warlock can whittle down the fighter before the day ends.

The best way seems to be:
- chainlock to spy,
- level 11 for a 3rd slot used to hex,
- greater invisibility in to surprise the fighter,
- 50% EB hit for 14 damage per turn,
- 50% arrow hit for 20 damage per turn,
- dimension door out to disengage safely,
- fighter too lazy to action surge,
- fighter too lazy to try to stop the short rest

You need 2 turns to beat the 25 hp heal from second wind: total 3 damage.
Even with surprise, no action surge and so lazy you only fire until you hit once, fighter does 10 damage.

I see everyone totally ignored the build I posted. It has the hp to survive and if you swap all the longbow stuff for Eldritch Blast stuff its pretty viable. It has around 300 hp virtually against the fighter.

bid

2016-05-08, 11:24 PM

I could see a fighter being so into ale that he would be willing to trade his potential wisdom for it.
How do you think they gained indomitable?

DeAnno

2016-05-08, 11:25 PM

I see everyone totally ignored the build I posted. It has the hp to survive and if you swap all the longbow stuff for Eldritch Blast stuff its pretty viable. It has around 300 hp virtually against the fighter.

Are you counting the Resistance to Piercing? Assuming that a level 20 Fighter doesn't have a magic weapon as his primary weapon strikes me as pretty silly.

JNAProductions

2016-05-08, 11:28 PM

NewDM, could you provide some math to your build? So we can actually see how it stacks up.

Giant2005

2016-05-08, 11:29 PM

JNA's build was specifically made to counter Hold Person and other Wisdom saving throw spells.

If that is the case, then JNA's build was made terribly as it has less Wisdom than it should.
If anyone were to optimize a pure fighter for nothing but ranged combat, their point buy would result in 15 Dex, 15 Con and 15 Wis. Anything less than that is not optimized for ranged combat, regardless of your foe.
If you were a Variant Human (or most or maybe all of the other races), you could not even out all 3 of those abilities with racial bonuses alone - that means taking a half feat at some point.
Your list of options for half feats (that don't have the other half of the feat already provided by the Fighter class abilities) that can add +1 to any of those scores are the following: Athlete, Durable, Observant, Resilient: Dex, Resilient: Wis, and Tavern Brawler.
Of those options, we can immediately throw out Athlete, Durable, Observant, and Tavern Brawler; due to them not providing a combat benefit, them not having any synergy with the build's design, or them providing some very minor combat benefits that are vastly outperformed by the other options.
That leaves Resilient: Dex, and Resilient: Wis as your only valid options for an optimized fighter for ranged combat. Sure Resilient: Dex may be taken on occasion (which would result in only a +3 Wis save bonus and the Fighter saving against the Warlock on a 14 or higher), but considering that failed Wisdom saves are considerably more detrimental than failed Dexterity saves, most would take Resilient: Wis and end up with +9 to Wis saves (and pass the Warlock's DC on an 8 or higher).
Either way, whether the Fighter needs an 8 or 14 to make his save, it is very, very unlikely that he will fail the 12 times required for the Warlock to secure the lucky victory.

Giant2005

2016-05-08, 11:35 PM

Even with uncontested short rests every 10 minutes of combat, I'm not sure the warlock can whittle down the fighter before the day ends.

The best way seems to be:
- chainlock to spy,
- level 11 for a 3rd slot used to hex,
- greater invisibility in to surprise the fighter,
- 50% EB hit for 14 damage per turn,
- 50% arrow hit for 20 damage per turn,
- dimension door out to disengage safely,
- fighter too lazy to action surge,
- fighter too lazy to try to stop the short rest

You need 2 turns to beat the 25 hp heal from second wind: total 3 damage.
Even with surprise, no action surge and so lazy you only fire until you hit once, fighter does 10 damage.

That couldn't work. The Fighter would start each of these encounters at a minimum of half hp due to his healing ability and the Warlock can't inflict enough damage with that routine to drop the Fighter from half hp. If the fighter retaliates at all, the Warlock will need to use HD to keep his hp up and will eventually run out. When the Warlock runs out, his hit and run attacks will only delay how long it takes for him to eventually die.
Of course if the Fighter is too lazy to stop a short rest, then he is probably too lazy to stop a long rest too. In which case the Warlock could just use long rests to top up his hp, and the cycle would continue infinitely, or until the fighter was annoyed enough to actually find the motivation to kill the warlock.

Giant2005

2016-05-08, 11:40 PM

I see everyone totally ignored the build I posted. It has the hp to survive and if you swap all the longbow stuff for Eldritch Blast stuff its pretty viable. It has around 300 hp virtually against the fighter.

I saw it and even referenced it in a post.
It is just there wasn't anything in there that could sway the odds in favor of the Warlock - even if he could somehow pull off the 5 or 6 spells you cited, with only two spell slots.

MaxWilson

2016-05-08, 11:42 PM

Either way, whether the Fighter needs an 8 or 14 to make his save, it is very, very unlikely that he will fail the 12 times required for the Warlock to secure the lucky victory.

Wait. Are there people who think that the Warlock in this scenario actually has a chance? Why?!? And how?

I posted a fighter (Degalus) who isn't specifically optimized for this scenario, he's just a fun way to use the stats I rolled up, but if I put him up against a hypothetical DC 17 Hold Person spell I have to re-try 68 times before he fails the initial saving throw, which is about average. (Indomitable + Lucky means he has to roll 8 or less four times in a row in order for the Hold Person to take effect, ergo 2.56% chance of failure. Obviously that uses up limited resources, but the Warlock is using limited resources too.) And that's without even factoring in Counterspell, which has the exact same range as Hold Person, and he has more spell slots than the Warlock, so technically it should actually be impossible for Hold Person to ever succeed on him in a 1:1 fight when both combatants are fresh, since it can always be Counterspelled.

(Well, not always. I guess not if the Warlock manages to hide from the fighter using Stealth or the right (non-concentration) invocations he might manage to at least cast the spell.)

Edit: oh, duh. Vanilla warlocks can only cast at max level (5th level in this case) so Counterspell can fail. I forgot about that because my warlocks use spellpoints.

Malifice

2016-05-09, 12:14 AM

Unless the player behind the warlock is a moron, Warlock. On melee, Darkness and Devil's Sight lock the fighter, and at range those invocations along with Eldritch Spear lock the fighter as well. No need to even use spells (other than EB at range).

So... the Warlock wins initiative and casts darkness on his first turn. All this does is grant the fighter disadvantage on his attack rolls, and grant the warlock advantage on his.

Then the Fighter advances, action surges and kills the Warlock.

My Fighter 20 build is the switch hitter:

Feats/ ASI: Lucky, Alert, Resilient [wisdom], Great weapon master, Sharpshooter, +4 Strength, +2 Dex

Str: 20
Dex: 18
Wis: 14
Con: 12
Int and Cha: 8

Battlemaster: Precise strike, Tripping attack, Menacing attack, Riposte, others. Archery F/S.

Equipment: Full plate, Greatsword, Maul, Longbow

Roll initiative at +9. Use a lucky re-roll if you flub it. Odds are you go first.

Advance to melee if Warlock is in range, draw one of your heavy weapons and toggle GWM 'on'. Action surge smacking him 8 times at +6. Spam precise strike to add +1d12 to your attack roll if you miss by 6 or less. Spam tripping strike to add +1d12 to your damage (and knocking him on his backside) if you hit. 4/8 hits is all you need. Use lucky to turn disadvantage from darkness into 'super advantage'.

Result = 1 dead warlock.

If Lock is not in melee range, do the same thing just using a bow and sharpshooter. Replace tripping strike with menacing strike. Again about 4/8 hits is all you need.

Result = 1 dead warlock.

If by some miracle he survives this onlsaught, repeat it next round (using your second action surge).

Only one very VERY lucky warlock survies this encounter.

Not really, you will automatically miss if you aim at the wrong spot.

Only if the Warlock is hidden. Simply being in darkness doesnt count, all this does is grant the Fighter disadvantage to attack the Warlock, and makes the Warlock immune to AoO's (you cant AoO what you cant see).

If the Warlock wants to actually be quiet in the darkness and hide in it (using his action on teh Hide action) to conceal his location in there, then fine. Then (assuming he defeats the Fighters passive perception of 18) he is hidden, and the Fighter needs to take the search action to find the square he is in.

Being invisible doesnt force your opponent to have to guess your square to make an attack (unless you are also hidden via the Hide action - which thanks to invisibility you can attempt as an action at any time). Neither does simply being inside the radius of darkness.

Warlock casts darkness, and the Fighter simply walks over and clobbers him (at disadvantage).

Now if the 'lock had cunning action (via a Rogue dip) he could cast darkness as an action, and then attempt to Hide in that darkness as a bonus action all in the same turn.

This lock doesnt have any rogue levels meaning he needs to blow an action casting darkness, and then blow another action hiding in it. His location is automatically revealed as soon as he attacks (succesful or otherwise). Its a poor strategy. If the 'lock wants to hide in the darkness as his action (the Fighters passive perception is 18) every other turn then good luck.

Nope.

"Darkness creates a heavily obscured area. Characters face darkness outdoors at night (even most moonlit nights). within the confines of an unlit dungeon or a subterranean vault, or in an area of magical darkness."

"A heavily obscured area-such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage-blocks vision entirely. A creature in a heavily obscured area effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see appendix A)"

"BLINDED

A blinded creature can't see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage. and the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage.

"

They would have to guess where the Warlock is in the darkness, they would have disadvantage on attacks and the Warlocks attacks have advantage.

No, they dont.

The blinded condition does nothing of the sort. Only when you're hidden do your opponents need to guess your square (or use the search action to find you). And you become hidden by taking the Hide action.

Standing in darkness only lets you attempt the Hide action. The Fighter can still hear you just fine. If you dont attempt to be quiet and stealthy by using the hide action (or you do attempt to hide in your darkness, and fail to beat the Fighters passive perception score) the Fighter knows (roughly) where you are, and can attack you at disadvantage.

Sorry this wouldn't happen the Warlock would use another strategy at this point like Dodge and move, or Darkness or Polymorph (T-Rex).

Darkness drops (its concentration) and the Warlock becomes a T-rex.

From this point its game over for the Warlock. That T-Rex shape will drop after the first hit from the fighters greatsword (not that it matters anyway; a Fighter 20 isnt in any threat from a T-rex as it is).

NewDM

2016-05-09, 03:03 AM

I saw it and even referenced it in a post.
It is just there wasn't anything in there that could sway the odds in favor of the Warlock - even if he could somehow pull off the 5 or 6 spells you cited, with only two spell slots.

Uh, no. I point out 3 or 4 strategies they could use with their 2 spell slots. Since we all agreed that 600 feet apart in a featureless plain was not going to happen, they have both spell slots.

Wait. Are there people who think that the Warlock in this scenario actually has a chance? Why?!? And how?

I posted a fighter (Degalus) who isn't specifically optimized for this scenario, he's just a fun way to use the stats I rolled up, but if I put him up against a hypothetical DC 17 Hold Person spell I have to re-try 68 times before he fails the initial saving throw, which is about average. (Indomitable + Lucky means he has to roll 8 or less four times in a row in order for the Hold Person to take effect, ergo 2.56% chance of failure. Obviously that uses up limited resources, but the Warlock is using limited resources too.) And that's without even factoring in Counterspell, which has the exact same range as Hold Person, and he has more spell slots than the Warlock, so technically it should actually be impossible for Hold Person to ever succeed on him in a 1:1 fight when both combatants are fresh, since it can always be Counterspelled.

(Well, not always. I guess not if the Warlock manages to hide from the fighter using Stealth or the right (non-concentration) invocations he might manage to at least cast the spell.)

Edit: oh, duh. Vanilla warlocks can only cast at max level (5th level in this case) so Counterspell can fail. I forgot about that because my warlocks use spellpoints.

See the bottom of my post.

So... the Warlock wins initiative and casts darkness on his first turn. All this does is grant the fighter disadvantage on his attack rolls, and grant the warlock advantage on his.

Then the Fighter advances, action surges and kills the Warlock.

My Fighter 20 build is the switch hitter:

Feats/ ASI: Lucky, Alert, Resilient [wisdom], Great weapon master, Sharpshooter, +4 Strength, +2 Dex

Str: 20
Dex: 18
Wis: 14
Con: 12
Int and Cha: 8

Battlemaster: Precise strike, Tripping attack, Menacing attack, Riposte, others. Archery F/S.

Equipment: Full plate, Greatsword, Maul, Longbow

Roll initiative at +9. Use a lucky re-roll if you flub it. Odds are you go first.

Advance to melee if Warlock is in range, draw one of your heavy weapons and toggle GWM 'on'. Action surge smacking him 8 times at +6. Spam precise strike to add +1d12 to your attack roll if you miss by 6 or less. Spam tripping strike to add +1d12 to your damage (and knocking him on his backside) if you hit. 4/8 hits is all you need. Use lucky to turn disadvantage from darkness into 'super advantage'.

Result = 1 dead warlock.

If Lock is not in melee range, do the same thing just using a bow and sharpshooter. Replace tripping strike with menacing strike. Again about 4/8 hits is all you need.

Result = 1 dead warlock.

If by some miracle he survives this onlsaught, repeat it next round (using your second action surge).

Only one very VERY lucky warlock survies this encounter.

Only if the Warlock is hidden. Simply being in darkness doesnt count, all this does is grant the Fighter disadvantage to attack the Warlock, and makes the Warlock immune to AoO's (you cant AoO what you cant see).

If the Warlock wants to actually be quiet in the darkness and hide in it (using his action on teh Hide action) to conceal his location in there, then fine. Then (assuming he defeats the Fighters passive perception of 18) he is hidden, and the Fighter needs to take the search action to find the square he is in.

Being invisible doesnt force your opponent to have to guess your square to make an attack (unless you are also hidden via the Hide action - which thanks to invisibility you can attempt as an action at any time). Neither does simply being inside the radius of darkness.

Warlock casts darkness, and the Fighter simply walks over and clobbers him (at disadvantage).

Now if the 'lock had cunning action (via a Rogue dip) he could cast darkness as an action, and then attempt to Hide in that darkness as a bonus action all in the same turn.

This lock doesnt have any rogue levels meaning he needs to blow an action casting darkness, and then blow another action hiding in it. His location is automatically revealed as soon as he attacks (succesful or otherwise). Its a poor strategy. If the 'lock wants to hide in the darkness as his action (the Fighters passive perception is 18) every other turn then good luck.

No, they dont.

The blinded condition does nothing of the sort. Only when you're hidden do your opponents need to guess your square (or use the search action to find you). And you become hidden by taking the Hide action.

Standing in darkness only lets you attempt the Hide action. The Fighter can still hear you just fine. If you dont attempt to be quiet and stealthy by using the hide action (or you do attempt to hide in your darkness, and fail to beat the Fighters passive perception score) the Fighter knows (roughly) where you are, and can attack you at disadvantage.

Darkness drops (its concentration) and the Warlock becomes a T-rex.

From this point its game over for the Warlock. That T-Rex shape will drop after the first hit from the fighters greatsword (not that it matters anyway; a Fighter 20 isnt in any threat from a T-rex as it is).

The Darkness thing is contested because there are several lines in the PHB that state you have to make perception checks to find someone hidden (which Darkness does). They are not silent but they are hidden which requires a check to find.

As to the T-Rex, no. You need to go back and look at your math. A single hit by any weapon will not deal 136 hit points of damage. In order to take that out the Fighter has to nova and use up their Action surge and even then its not 136 damage. They also have to drop their bow to draw the greatsword or they lose their action to do so. Which means the fighter is now unarmed for range. They also have to contend with being grappled by a giant dinosaur. Which means restrained (disadvantage on attacks). Once the T-Rex hp is dealt with you still have to contend with the Warlock's regular HP that has resistance against piercing damage and 3 extra hp per level for a total of +30 hp. Since they are starting at 50 feet from each other (as the poster above mentioned), then they don't have to use Dimension door, which means they can polymorph into a T-Rex again and repeat. The T-Rex has +10 to attack and deals 33 damage on average and has advantage on its attack once it hits for the grapple. The fighter has 224 with maximum Constitution. With an 18 AC the T-Rex has 65% chance for the first hit and 87.75% chance to hit (http://anydice.com/program/84f4) every round after that. The Fighter meanwhile has a +11 to attack and after the first hit by the T-Rex has a 90.25% chance to hit with disadvantage. That means the fighter will hit the T-Rex with 7 attacks out of 8 on an action surge or two rounds. If the Fighter deals 1d10(pole arm)+5(str)+0.8(GWF)=11.3 with 4 attacks and 1d4(pole arm bonus)+5(str)+0.5(GWF)=8 with the PAM bonus attack for a total of 53.2 for 4 regular attacks plus a bonus PAM attack that means it'll take the fighter 3 rounds to chew through the hit points of the T-Rex, meanwhile the Fighter has taken about 33*3*0.8775 = 86.8725 damage or 38% of the Fighters hit points. After that the Fighter has to contend with boosted Eldritch blasts that knock them back 10 feet and a Familiar from Pact of the Chain that uses the Help action to grant the Warlock advantage on one of its attacks each round. Attacking with Eldritch Blast at level 10 deals 2d10+6 average 16 with a +7 to attack vs. AC 18 means they hit about 75% of the time so the average goes to 12. The Fighter would then have to chew through the Warlocks 83 hit points with resistance meaning their damage for the round would be 24 (note, the average damage is 11.3 halfed that is 5.8 rounded down that's 5*4=20+4=24) That means 4 rounds to kill the Warlock with melee weapons. The average would also go down because I didn't account for the Warlocks higher AC than the T-Rex. With ranged weapons its much worse. +13 to hit, 1d10+5 damage, average 95% of the time for 9.975*4=4(rounded down for resistance)=20. Which takes 5 rounds to kill the Warlock. meanwhile the warlock has dealt 5*12=60 or 26.78% + 38% = 64.78% of the fighters health.

Looks like the Warlock should use their other spell slot on something to hinder the Fighter. If the Warlock has access to the area before hand they can spend 24 hours casting Hallow and give the Fighter vulnerability to their Eldritch Blast damage. If not, they can try Flamestrike for 8d6 damage average 28. They could use Hex to gain an additional 2d6 damage or 7 average per round on their Eldritch Blast which would make the damage 2d10+2d6+6=24 damage average and 18 after miss chance. So those 5 rounds would total 90 damage or 40% of the Fighters hit points. Added to the other 38% that's 78%, which is pretty close. A few lucky rolls on the Warlocks part and the Fighter goes down.

If they use Bane on the Fighter (from an invocation) that'll lower the fighters attack bonus by 2.5 on average meaning -2.5*0.05=-12.5% of the damage on each attack. This would lower the damage dealt by the ranged fighter to 16 (rounding down for resistance) that buys the Warlock 6 rounds, which is still not enough to take out the fighter.

Average damage with resistance would possibly be lower:
GWF PAM
Normal 5.5+5.5+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10=63/10=6.3
Resistance 2+2+1+2+2+3+3+4+4+5=28/10=2.8

Longbow
Normal 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10=55/10=5.5
Resistance 0+1+1+2+2+3+3+4+4+5=2.5

wow that's significantly lower.

Lets recalculate the fighters damage with the new averages from resistance:
+13 to hit, 1d10+5 (7.5) damage, average 95% = 7.125*4=28.5
With Bane 7.5*0.825*4=24.75

Nope still too high. So the Fighter would in fact win.

(I don't count the EK as a fighter as its a spell caster with fighter features, its a gish).

Lombra

2016-05-09, 03:07 AM

While it's a fun speculation, I don't think that PvP is a thing to consider in this game, the only things that should be compared are class builds for the same role in the party in my opinion

Kane0

2016-05-09, 03:20 AM

Not much chance for the lock 10 to beat that fighter 20. Thats a lot of ASIs and HP to deal with, not to mention all the attacks heading your way.
And thats before you even factor subclass.

Malifice

2016-05-09, 03:37 AM

The Darkness thing is contested because there are several lines in the PHB that state you have to make perception checks to find someone hidden (which Darkness does).

Darkness does not make you hidden in and of itself. Taking the Hide action (and succeeding in a Dexterity stealth check) while inside darkness (heavy obscurement) makes you hidden.

Just like casting invisibility doesnt make you hidden. It just provides the heavy obscurement that enables a stealth check via the Hide action

They are not silent but they are hidden which requires a check to find.

Now youre just making stuff up. Hidden is expressly defined in the PHB as 'unseen AND unheard'.

Darkness doesnt make you automatically hidden. It just enables the hide action by stopping you from being seen. Just like becoming invisible, or stepping behind total cover or into heavy obscurement doesnt automatically make you 'hidden'. It simply fulfills the requirement that enables the Hide action.

Cast darkness if you want on turn one. Unless you have cunning action or some other ability to hide as a bonus action that turn, you cant cast darkness AND hide in that darkness on the same turn. The Fighter now simply walks over on his turn and swings into the darkness (at disadvantage).

Just like if your Warlock cast invisibility and then walked away, the Fighter could just walk over adjacent to him and swing wildly (at disadvantage). No guessing where the Warlock is required.

Again; if the 'lock was a Rogue 2/ Lock 8 he could cast invisibility or darkness and then [cunning action] use the Hide action immediately to conceal his location. Heck, he'd probably have expertise in stealth as well.

On a side note, Arcane Tricksters with invisibility are nightmares.

As to the T-Rex, no. You need to go back and look at your math. A single hit by any weapon will not deal 136 hit points of damage.

Who cares about 136 hit points? The Fighter doesnt. The T-Rex will be knocked back into Warlock form after the Fighters first attack on his first turn after the Warlock wastes his turn casting Polymorph.

Polymorph has a duration of Concentration remember? Like Darkness and Hex, and most of the other spells you seem to forget has this (important) requirement. The Warlock casts polymorph on his turn and darkness ends, and the (now T-Rexs) turn ends (barring any movement).

Leaving a big grinning T-Rex (conentrating on remaining a T-Rex) standing in front of an angry 20th level Fighter.

The T-Rex has an AC of 13. The Fighter shrugs and simply smacks it around the head with his Maul [with great weapon master toggled on], and adds a superiority dice to the damage. Your Warlock/ T-Rex now has to pass a DC [(15+2D6+1D12)/2] Con save, or lose concentration on the spell. And if he doesnt drop concentration, the fighter repeats this attack. And then he repeats it again. And then again. And again. And again. And again. And again. Should the Fighter miss (unlikely) then he blows a sup dice to hit adding an extra +1d12 to the attack roll. God help you if he crits (even worse because it grants him an ninth attack as a bonus action thanks to GWM).

T-Rexes make Con saves at +4. Good luck.

Odds are you'll be smacked back into human form after an attack or two and then badly injured, and now out of spell slots (having used Polymorph and Darkness) and next to a fighter with a second action surge up his belt.

Any more tricks to use before the fighter action surges you into a pink goop?

dev6500

2016-05-09, 03:58 AM

Silly thread... I agree with many people. The warlock is punching a little too far above their weight class trying to fight the fighter. I suspect their best bet is to engage the fighter in the first round, and commence disengaging and run away. Once they have successfully escaped from the fighter, they at least have the chance to bombard the fighter with dream 24/7(3d6 damage per sleep attempt by the fighter) until he dies from it or hires a wizard to start divining your location. If the fighter were a champion(one of the few times being a champion is optimal), even dream would only bring the fighter down to 50% hp. Then you would have to track him down again and attempt to murder him...

In order for the warlock to really be able to do this, they would need to multiclass. Likely 2 levels of rogue for bonus action hiding. Otherwise the darkness trick is just not good enough.

If the warlock has bonus action hiding though, then they can stand in their darkness and just keep EB'ing the fighter while the fighter has to guess which tile the warlock has gone to.

krugaan

2016-05-09, 04:02 AM

a 240 hp champion fighter with con 20, toughness, plate, shield, defense fighting style can lie on the ground and read a book and the warlock will never get past his survivor regen.

2x eldritch @ +8 hit = 2(.35)(10.5) = 7.35 dmg / rnd

if the warlock gets into melee he is dead, if he doesn't he will never kill the warrior. The warrior can lie on the ground with a shield and shoot hand crossbow bolts forever until the warlock dies and the warlock has an infinitesimal chance to kill him.

Or, for extra troll points, take magic initiate and cast vicious mockery each round.

mgshamster

2016-05-09, 07:12 AM

This explains a lot. Maybe you pal from the other thread could come up with the scenario then?

Maybe! Or anyone posting here can; I figure give the warlock the best advantage, as everyone else has decided that he'll lose. The person who made that claim has already posted here, and hasn't contributed further:

Unless the player behind the warlock is a moron, Warlock. On melee, Darkness and Devil's Sight lock the fighter, and at range those invocations along with Eldritch Spear lock the fighter as well. No need to even use spells (other than EB at range).

Citan

2016-05-09, 07:29 AM

Zalabim

2016-05-09, 07:36 AM

Silly thread... I agree with many people. The warlock is punching a little too far above their weight class trying to fight the fighter. I suspect their best bet is to engage the fighter in the first round, and commence disengaging and run away. Once they have successfully escaped from the fighter, they at least have the chance to bombard the fighter with dream 24/7(3d6 damage per sleep attempt by the fighter) until he dies from it or hires a wizard to start divining your location. If the fighter were a champion(one of the few times being a champion is optimal), even dream would only bring the fighter down to 50% hp. Then you would have to track him down again and attempt to murder him...

Dream really can't kill any fighter because Second Wind only requires a short rest.

RumoCrytuf

2016-05-09, 07:36 AM

LOL

PvP doesn't work like that.

Give pre-knowledge time, pre-buff time, description of the fight's location (unless they have enough pre-knowledge to hunt each other around the world/planes) which includes not only terrain, but lighting, weather, everything relevant, and starting distance.

Either give sources, or all will be allowed.

So, a description of the BG? Alright, it's a stormy night, the fighter is a champion for an army marching on the warlocks keep. The warlocks defenses have been nigh impenetrable until now, and the fighter has worked his way into the upper levels of the keep. He has found the Warlock on top of a tower outside, consulting with his demonic lord. With an epic cry, the fighter says "Your time has come, devil-idolater!" The warlock spins around. The fighter is about 30 feet from him. Both are alone, and the Demonic Patron has used magic to seal off all routes of escape for both parties.

Now, roll initiative.

Markoff Chainey

2016-05-09, 07:54 AM

What the thread clearly shows is that a lvl 20 fighter is a monster and a lvl 10 warlock should not stand a chance...

yet, a warlock has early access to some really nasty surprises that allow him a shot at anybody regardless of their weight class if they cannot counter those.

Besides the spell goodies that any spell caster has (polymorph, hold person, dimension door, misty step, dream, familiar, any illusions...) and that basically allow a caster to choose the time and place of the engagement and also allow a quick get-away if things go bad, the warlock has IMO 2 outstanding features for such a fight:

- darkness + devil sight = not end game but nasty
and I can't understand why nobody else mentioned:
- ASCENDANT STEP - add mage hand as cantrip to move around and its basically an almost everlasting "fly" spell that lets you become a ranged weapon and spell platform. As a warlock with the spell sniper feat, it should be possible to eldritch blast everything to death from above this (boring) way.

So if you want to play an overly optimized warlock that everybody hates...

P.S.: that could be done with an Aarokblah.. birdpeople or winged tiefling as well and would not specifically require a warlock.

Citan

2016-05-09, 07:54 AM

Being invisible doesnt force your opponent to have to guess your square to make an attack (unless you are also hidden via the Hide action - which thanks to invisibility you can attempt as an action at any time). Neither does simply being inside the radius of darkness.

Now if the 'lock had cunning action (via a Rogue dip) he could cast darkness as an action, and then attempt to Hide in that darkness as a bonus action all in the same turn.

This lock doesnt have any rogue levels meaning he needs to blow an action casting darkness, and then blow another action hiding in it. His location is automatically revealed as soon as he attacks (succesful or otherwise). Its a poor strategy. If the 'lock wants to hide in the darkness as his action (the Fighters passive perception is 18) every other turn then good luck.

Standing in darkness only lets you attempt the Hide action. The Fighter can still hear you just fine. If you dont attempt to be quiet and stealthy by using the hide action (or you do attempt to hide in your darkness, and fail to beat the Fighters passive perception score) the Fighter knows (roughly) where you are, and can attack you at disadvantage.

Agreed that it would work much easier if Warlock had dipped Rogue to get Cunning Action but disagree with you on two points.

1. Why would the Warlock shoot his EB from where he stands? That would indeed be silly, hence he doesn't do that. He moves AFTER having shot. Which brings me to the other point.

2. Distance! I agree with you that, in close range (like 60-80 feet range), any DM would admit that you hear your enemy fine enough to guess where he is just by hearing, as long as you don't have a really dull passive Perception though (or you're deafened... Which is not on Warlock's list unfortunately -edit: in fact it is! for Fiend patron).
But at longer range, you cannot justify anymore that you know where he is in spite of not seeing him, because there is no reason why you would hear him unless he moves abnormaly (such as Dashing), unless DM considers you have such a high Wisdom that it means you have extremely good ears. So you will have no other option than 1) spend an action for Perception check 2) Aim at last known position and hope for the best.

The fighter is an EK. He starts the combat invisible, then stab+ hold person the warlock (with disadvantage!). Then he can just do 4 attacks per round and action surge.

This I 100% agree with. Eldricht Knight can have all necessary tools to nullify most potential winning strategies of Warlock (including Counterspell, See Invisibility, Greater Invisibility), even if he lost the Initiative race. Only archetype that is assured a win imo though.

EDIT: While I checked the invocations, I realized there is an invocation that lets you cast Slow. Seems to me a very potent Fighter counter... As long as you make it hit (confer the discussions above about Wisdom saving throws). Makes it kinda sad that save spells don't have the same kind of rule as attacks (1= autohit whatever happens). ^^

By the way, let's say on any given attack, with both opponents having Lucky feat, both want to use it. From what I understand, their effects would cancel each out so there is actually no dice influence right?

MaxWilson

2016-05-09, 08:15 AM

What the thread clearly shows is that a lvl 20 fighter is a monster and a lvl 10 warlock should not stand a chance...

yet, a warlock has early access to some really nasty surprises that allow him a shot at anybody regardless of their weight class if they cannot counter those.

Besides the spell goodies that any spell caster has (polymorph, hold person, dimension door, misty step, dream, familiar, any illusions...) and that basically allow a caster to choose the time and place of the engagement and also allow a quick get-away if things go bad, the warlock has IMO 2 outstanding features for such a fight:

- darkness + devil sight = not end game but nasty
and I can't understand why nobody else mentioned:
- ASCENDANT STEP - add mage hand as cantrip to move around and its basically an almost everlasting "fly" spell that lets you become a ranged weapon and spell platform. As a warlock with the spell sniper feat, it should be possible to eldritch blast everything to death from above this (boring) way.

I thought about it for my warlock, but eventually decided it was redundant with Expeditious Retreat and Fly (she had both) and that I couldn't afford the extra invocation for so little gain.

If she'd had it, it would have saved her 5 spell points, which would have let her get off an extra spell (Hold Person?), but probably (98%) wouldn't have changed the outcome of the fight.

mgshamster

2016-05-09, 08:53 AM

2. Distance! I agree with you that, in close range (like 60-80 feet range), any DM would admit that you hear your enemy fine enough to guess where he is just by hearing, as long as you don't have a really dull passive Perception though (or you're deafened... Which is not on Warlock's list unfortunately -edit: in fact it is! for Fiend patron).
But at longer range, you cannot justify anymore that you know where he is in spite of not seeing him, because there is no reason why you would hear him unless he moves abnormaly (such as Dashing), unless DM considers you have such a high Wisdom that it means you have extremely good ears. So you will have no other option than 1) spend an action for Perception check 2) Aim at last known position and hope for the best.

Text of the spell:

"A beam of crackling energy streaks toward a creature within range."

Ever fire tracer rounds in a machine gun? They work both ways; not only can you see where your rounds are going, but the enemy can see where they came from.

Considering the text of eldritch blast, that works very similarly to tracer rounds. After the first hit, anyone should be able to look out for the crackling beam of energy and see where the source is located.

Just a thought.

dev6500

2016-05-09, 09:06 AM

Dream really can't kill any fighter because Second Wind only requires a short rest.

My bad. I forgot about that ability because I haven't played a fighter yet. This thing is pretty done then. I think the warlock is going to have to lure the fighter to a cliff over hanging a pit of acid or lava and then repelling blast him into it...

Markoff Chainey

2016-05-09, 09:06 AM

I thought about it for my warlock, but eventually decided it was redundant with Expeditious Retreat and Fly (she had both) and that I couldn't afford the extra invocation for so little gain.

If she'd had it, it would have saved her 5 spell points, which would have let her get off an extra spell (Hold Person?), but probably (98%) wouldn't have changed the outcome of the fight.

I can totally see that it is redundant for any normal game if you have already chosen expeditious retreat and fly - but for the situation in question - building a pvp character within an open scenario, I think it is unbeatable.

Fly uses up a spell slot and last 10 min maximum. Expeditious retreat lets you run around very fast... (but you want to be unreachable for all times...)

With the invocation, you can cast levitate without a spell slot and thus cast it over and over again - and in addition with mage hand as a cantrip, you can move an additional 30 feet per turn as bonus action. (Depending on your DM, you can also move 50 ft up / down instead of just 20 from levitate.) So arguably, you can cast it continously, because once you are up at around 1000 feet it takes longer to hit ground than to recast it.

This allows you to move up to the air and stay there long before even rolling for initiative. And all weapons and most spells have a very short range compared to Eldritch Blast, especially when enhanced with the Spell Sniper Feat and another invocation..

This is why I see the ascendant step invocation as a very tough problem the warlock build can pose to an opponent that is unique to the warlock (and to all other builds that include a naturally flying race and the spell sniper feat).

Everything else that was posted here does not allow specifically the warlock to take out a lvl 20 opponent and could be done with another class too (IMO, maybe I missed something).

Citan

2016-05-09, 09:13 AM

Text of the spell:

"A beam of crackling energy streaks toward a creature within range."

Ever fire tracer rounds in a machine gun? They work both ways; not only can you see where your rounds are going, but the enemy can see where they came from.

Considering the text of eldritch blast, that works very similarly to tracer rounds. After the first hit, anyone should be able to look out for the crackling beam of energy and see where the source is located.

Just a thought.
I don't see at all how that could invalidate my point. ;)
You just have to move AFTER you used your action.

A straight up Warlock without special feats or multiclass can move 30 feet away with most races. That's not so much, but that's enough to be "in another place" than the one you were when you fired the Eldricht Blast.
So the enemy archer will still have to make a wild guess at where you moved to or just fire his arrows at the point where EB came from, in the hope that his target was stupid enough to stay in place.

smcmike

2016-05-09, 09:16 AM

I can totally see that it is redundant for any normal game if you have already chosen expeditious retreat and fly - but for the situation in question - building a pvp character within an open scenario, I think it is unbeatable.

Fly uses up a spell slot and last 10 min maximum. Expeditious retreat lets you run around very fast... (but you want to be unreachable for all times...)

With the invocation, you can cast levitate without a spell slot and thus cast it over and over again - and in addition with mage hand as a cantrip, you can move an additional 30 feet per turn as bonus action. (Depending on your DM, you can also move 50 ft up / down instead of just 20 from levitate.) So arguably, you can cast it continously, because once you are up at around 1000 feet it takes longer to hit ground than to recast it.

This allows you to move up to the air and stay there long before even rolling for initiative. And all weapons and most spells have a very short range compared to Eldritch Blast, especially when enhanced with the Spell Sniper Feat and another invocation..

This is why I see the ascendant step invocation as a very tough problem the warlock build can pose to an opponent that is unique to the warlock (and to all other builds that include a naturally flying race and the spell sniper feat).

Everything else that was posted here does not allow specifically the warlock to take out a lvl 20 opponent and could be done with another class too (IMO, maybe I missed something).

Assuming one side gets to set up however they want is one major problem with this idea.

The second, of course, is that a longbow can shoot 600'.

MaxWilson

2016-05-09, 09:16 AM

I can totally see that it is redundant for any normal game if you have already chosen expeditious retreat and fly - but for the situation in question - building a pvp character within an open scenario, I think it is unbeatable.

Fly uses up a spell slot and last 10 min maximum. Expeditious retreat lets you run around very fast... (but you want to be unreachable for all times...)

With the invocation, you can cast levitate without a spell slot and thus cast it over and over again - and in addition with mage hand as a cantrip, you can move an additional 30 feet per turn as bonus action. (Depending on your DM, you can also move 50 ft up / down instead of just 20 from levitate.) So arguably, you can cast it continously, because once you are up at around 1000 feet it takes longer to hit ground than to recast it.

This allows you to move up to the air and stay there long before even rolling for initiative. And all weapons and most spells have a very short range compared to Eldritch Blast, especially when enhanced with the Spell Sniper Feat and another invocation..

This is why I see the ascendant step invocation as a very tough problem the warlock build can pose to an opponent that is unique to the warlock (and to all other builds that include a naturally flying race and the spell sniper feat).

Everything else that was posted here does not allow specifically the warlock to take out a lvl 20 opponent and could be done with another class too (IMO, maybe I missed something).

I don't see how Ascendant Step helps. A Sharpshooter with a longbow has the exact same range as you, 600' for both. How are you going to turn that levitation capability into a victory? At best you can stalemate by simply staying thousands of feet up in the air for the rest of your life so he can't kill you.

And as you say, an Aarakocra Eldritch Knight will still hunt you down and kill you.

Cazero

2016-05-09, 09:17 AM

The greatest flaw of any "pure" Fighter build is, AFAIK, that he has no ability to discern invisible things without magic items.

Nope. The fighter doesn't have that flaw. If anyone has that flaw, it's litteraly every other class. Because action surge is the only efficient way to act upon detection of your enemy, regardless of how you actualy detected him.

There are only two possible rulings about invisibility :
-being invisible doesn't conceal your position and everyone still know it unless you had enough time to also hide. The fighter simply have disadvantage on his attack rolls and curb stomps his enemy because we're talking about a much, much lower level warlock.
-being invisible give a free hide that override passive perception. You can still locate an invisible creature with an active perception check. Assuming the fighter cannot wait it out and that the free hide was succesful (wich is far from a given, especialy since any attack and spellcasting reveals where you are wich means reaction attacks at disadvantage are fair game), he can use his action for active perception and immediately act upon a success with action surge.

I don't see at all how that could invalidate my point. ;)
You just have to move AFTER you used your action.

Doesn't help. You are casting a spell, wich means you are talking loudly and emitting magical lights during that entire round.
Also, reaction attack at disadvantage before you got to move.

RulesJD

2016-05-09, 09:25 AM

Lvl 20 Bow EK with Haste + Dispel Magic + Counterspell.

If Warlock wants to do the Darkness trick, just Dispel. If within 60ft when trying to do Darkness, just Counterspell.

Game over.

Markoff Chainey

2016-05-09, 09:30 AM

I don't see how Ascendant Step helps. A Sharpshooter with a longbow has the exact same range as you, 600' for both. How are you going to turn that levitation capability into a victory? At best you can stalemate by simply staying thousands of feet up in the air for the rest of your life so he can't kill you.

And as you say, an Aarakocra Eldritch Knight will still hunt you down and kill you.

Eldritch Spear Invocation + Spell Sniper = 1200 ft.

True... An aarakocra or a winged tiefling can do so, but those are likely more rare than a warlock.

The whole thread is about how a lvl 10 warlock can beat a lvl 20 fighter... and I am reading into it that the poster wants to know how possibly a warlock could beat a much stronger opponent.

And that is a quite interesting question - what tools can a warlock use that another class cannot to possibly beat a much stronger opponent. I agree that even my mention is not unique because it can be copied (to a degree) by a race and feat combo, but it is stronger than the mention of a single spell because that could be used by any spellcaster.

So I was thinking about problems that specifically a warlock can pose to an opponent. - Those can be countered of course, but are problems still, because any non-aarakocra or winged tiefling fighter is either quickly searching for an entrance to the underdarks or going to die.

smcmike

2016-05-09, 09:34 AM

Eldritch Spear Invocation + Spell Sniper = 1200 ft.

Nope. 600'.

Malifice

2016-05-09, 09:51 AM

I don't see at all how that could invalidate my point. ;)
You just have to move AFTER you used your action.

A straight up Warlock without special feats or multiclass can move 30 feet away with most races. That's not so much, but that's enough to be "in another place" than the one you were when you fired the Eldricht Blast.
So the enemy archer will still have to make a wild guess at where you moved to or just fire his arrows at the point where EB came from, in the hope that his target was stupid enough to stay in place.

Post fails to realise that actions in a round are simultaneous.

RickAllison

2016-05-09, 09:53 AM

Nope. 600'.

Indeed. The other poster is likely thinking about the Sorcerer Metamagic that allows for doubled range. That would work, but it violates the terms of this battle. And even then, the warlock would only have so many castings at that range...

dev6500

2016-05-09, 09:59 AM

Post fails to realise that actions in a round are simultaneous.

Actions in a round are conceptually simultaneous but not practically or actually simultaneous. Due to initiative, each person acts in order. If you shoot and kill a target before their turn in the initiative order or if you shoot a target and step back behind a wall, the target never gets to shoot back at you.

Citan

2016-05-09, 10:03 AM

Nope. The fighter doesn't have that flaw. If anyone has that flaw, it's litteraly every other class. Because action surge is the only efficient way to act upon detection of your enemy, regardless of how you actualy detected him.

There are only two possible rulings about invisibility :
-being invisible doesn't conceal your position and everyone still know it unless you had enough time to also hide. The fighter simply have disadvantage on his attack rolls and curb stomps his enemy because we're talking about a much, much lower level warlock.
-being invisible give a free hide that override passive perception. You can still locate an invisible creature with an active perception check. Assuming the fighter cannot wait it out and that the free hide was succesful (wich is far from a given, especialy since any attack and spellcasting reveals where you are wich means reaction attacks at disadvantage are fair game), he can use his action for active perception and immediately act upon a success with action surge.

Doesn't help. You are casting a spell, wich means you are talking loudly and emitting magical lights during that entire round.
Also, reaction attack at disadvantage before you got to move.
Sorry but YES that IS a flaw of a Fighter (except Eldricht Knight).
Non-EK Fighter is stuck with disadvantage on all his attacks with no way to alter this.
Most casters can get their hands on a class ability or spell that allows thems to see through invisbility.
Rogue gets it at short range at 14th level: which, by the way, strongly hints at the fact that it's a special ability to know the location of someone hidden or invisible just thanks to the hearing... Just saying for the benefit of you and all others saying that "you hear so you know" for anyone.
(For easier reference, exact text from Rogue 14th's "Blindsense" class feature: "Starting at 14th level, if you are able to hear, you are aware of the location of any hidden or invisible creature within 10 feet of you.")
IF any creature was able to know the location of another hidden creature just by the sound it emits, this would make the class feature meaningless since anyone could do better. Hence, the existence of this class feature illustrates that the sound must not considered enough to know the location of an invisible creature (except for those creatures with special senses build in such as Blindsense or Tremorsense).

As for the other point...
"You are talking loudly and emitting magical lights during that entire round" = totally made up by you. You can move in a way entirely separated from the action you take, therefore the sound and light you make during the action are totally separated from the ones you make during the move. So no, just because you take an action doesn't mean people automatically know where you are in spite of you being invisible, as long as you moved away after.

And where would the reaction attack come from? I was talking about a fight between ranged characters, or at least Warlock keeping away from melee range (doable with Repelling Blast + usual move + unknown location)...

Grod_The_Giant

2016-05-09, 10:16 AM

Fine. Ready an action to shoot back when the Warlock attacks; they'll fall their Concentration check long before you die.

tieren

2016-05-09, 10:16 AM

Sorry but YES that IS a flaw of a Fighter (except Eldricht Knight).
Non-EK Fighter is stuck with disadvantage on all his attacks with no way to alter this.
Most casters can get their hands on a class ability or spell that allows thems to see through invisbility.
Rogue gets it at short range at 14th level: which, by the way, strongly hints at the fact that it's a special ability to know the location of someone hidden or invisible just thanks to the hearing... Just saying for the benefit of you and all others saying that "you hear so you know" for anyone.
(For easier reference, exact text from Rogue 14th's "Blindsense" class feature: "Starting at 14th level, if you are able to hear, you are aware of the location of any hidden or invisible creature within 10 feet of you.")
IF any creature was able to know the location of another hidden creature just by the sound it emits, this would make the class feature meaningless since anyone could do better. Hence, the existence of this class feature illustrates that the sound must not considered enough to know the location of an invisible creature (except for those creatures with special senses build in such as Blindsense or Tremorsense).

As for the other point...
"You are talking loudly and emitting magical lights during that entire round" = totally made up by you. You can move in a way entirely separated from the action you take, therefore the sound and light you make during the action are totally separated from the ones you make during the move.

And where would the reaction attack come from? I was talking about a fight between ranged characters...

Once you attack you are no longer hidden, even if you are still invisible. You could waste an action taking the hide action, but if not the fighter is just attacking you with disadvantage, unless he has Lucky feat in which case it is with super advantage and the first hit is likely to break your concentration.

Citan

2016-05-09, 10:23 AM

Once you attack you are no longer hidden, even if you are still invisible. You could waste an action taking the hide action, but if not the fighter is just attacking you with disadvantage, unless he has Lucky feat in which case it is with super advantage and the first hit is likely to break your concentration.
I just pointed out that the Blindsense ability demonstrate that without it, one cannot automatically know the location of an invisible creature (unless he has other means to see it).
So yes, the Fighter could try to break Greater Invisibility by readying an attack when a spell is cast. But that's basically his only chance to get it. If he doesn't break the concentration on these hits then after that the Warlock moves away and Fighter will have to spend action on active Perception check or shoot in the void hoping for a stroke of luck.

Actions in a round are conceptually simultaneous but not practically or actually simultaneous. Due to initiative, each person acts in order. If you shoot and kill a target before their turn in the initiative order or if you shoot a target and step back behind a wall, the target never gets to shoot back at you.
This is also true.
But anyways, Malifice's comment fall short anyways. Because even if you consider what everyone does "simultaneous", it doesn't change the fact that people move and that this move is considered having a dedicated period of time (since you can move before an action or bonus action, after it, or in specific instances during it -aiming at Attack here-). Since the spell we talk about here is of an "instantaneous" duration, that means that the Warlock casting it will make lights and sounds during the 6 seconds, then the bolts will be unleashed instantly and he can move away after that during the "remaining time" of the round. Could we consider that the Fighter start attacking as soon as he sees the lights and sounds? Probably, but it would become tedious. First it would require some way to take the Initiative into account, by giving 1-2 second ahead for the one with the best Initiative. Second, we would have to start taking into account the time to shoot and travel speed of projectiles to see if the arrows fired have time to hit the Warlock before he start moving (no doubt at short range, less at longer). Same with EB going towards Fighter Do people really want to think about all this? :)

Also, that would make "reactions" kinda mull. Because it would mean in the previous example that, if Fighter hit the Warlock during the 6 seconds casting, it should logically (following the general rules of casting and concentration) make the casting fail. Hence martials would get very powerful on a basis against casters, without any need of feat or class features.

Cazero

2016-05-09, 10:27 AM

Sorry but YES that IS a flaw of a Fighter (except Eldricht Knight).
Most casters can get their hands on a class ability or spell that allows thems to see through invisbility.
Well, I guess that point is valid.
So the fighter can't negate invisibility. He still doesn't give a damn about it. A weakling that you can only attack with disadvantage remains a weakling and cannot possibly threaten you without strength in numbers.

Rogue gets it at short range at 14th level: which, by the way, strongly hints at the fact that it's a special ability to know the location of someone hidden or invisible just thanks to the hearing... Just saying for the benefit of you and all others saying that "you hear so you know" for anyone.
Wich means an automatic success of passive perception against any attempt to hide as long as the rogue is close enough. Not that being invisible makes you hidden.

(For easier reference, exact text from Rogue 14th's "Blindsense" class feature: "Starting at 14th level, if you are able to hear, you are aware of the location of any hidden or invisible creature within 10 feet of you.")
That's basicaly what a succesful perception check does against hiding. My worst case scenario still stands.

IF any creature was able to know the location of another hidden creature just by the sound it emits, this would make the class feature meaningless since anyone could do better. Hence, the existence of this class feature illustrates that the sound must not considered enough to know the location of an invisible creature (except for those creatures with special senses build in such as Blindsense or Tremorsense).
No, that would not make the class feature meaningless. For starters, the rogue can combine this class feature, his regular movement and a bonus action dash to cover a very wide area and locate tons of succesfuly hidden people without even rolling perception. Anyone can hear foosteps and swing in the general direction for an attack with disadvantage, but the rogue can identify a stone golem from an ordinary stone statue from the inexistant sounds of animating magic. That's how awesome it is.

Non-EK Fighter is stuck with disadvantage on all his attacks with no way to alter this.
Considering the level difference, the fighter couldn't care less about that "disadvantage" you are forcing him into.

As for the other point...
"You are talking loudly and emitting magical lights during that entire round" = totally made up by you. You can move in a way entirely separated from the action you take, therefore the sound and light you make during the action are totally separated from the ones you make during the move.

And where would the reaction attack come from? I was talking about a fight between ranged characters...
Casting a spell takes time. You don't just say a word and then do nothing with your magic for six second while you run to reposition yourself. You are already telling the words of power of your next spell, or you're dead for not being proactive enough in a fight. Consider yourself lucky that the current abstraction of the rules allows you to cast before moving and without having to declare all your spells the round before you cast them.

MaxWilson

2016-05-09, 10:45 AM

Sorry but YES that IS a flaw of a Fighter (except Eldricht Knight).
Non-EK Fighter is stuck with disadvantage on all his attacks with no way to alter this.

And yet he doesn't really care because with +13 to hit the warlock's pathetic AC (19 if Warlock took Moderately Armored and is wearing half-plate with Dex 14 and a shield, 20 if he also took Heavily Armored) he will still have plenty of chances to hit the Warlock and break his concentration, dispelling the Darkness and disadvantage. Not to mention all the other ways that the Fighter could counter disadvantage, including withdrawing to 400' and putting up a Darkness spell of his own, which means that neither of them can see the other.

(For easier reference, exact text from Rogue 14th's "Blindsense" class feature: "Starting at 14th level, if you are able to hear, you are aware of the location of any hidden or invisible creature within 10 feet of you.")
IF any creature was able to know the location of another hidden creature just by the sound it emits, this would make the class feature meaningless since anyone could do better. Hence, the existence of this class feature illustrates that the sound must not considered enough to know the location of an invisible creature (except for those creatures with special senses build in such as Blindsense or Tremorsense).

You're begging the question by assuming that "hidden" and "invisible" are synonymous. If Hidden is one step beyond Invisible (not only are you unseen, but the enemy has to guess your location to shoot you), then Blindsense means that you cannot be sneaked up on: you never have to guess, you "just know" where enemies are when they are close to you even if they are hidden. That sounds worthwhile (if a bit weak for a 14th level ability) even if invisibility does not automatically confer Hidden.

Malifice

2016-05-09, 10:49 AM

I just pointed out that the Blindsense ability demonstrate that without it, one cannot automatically know the location of an invisible creature (unless he has other means to see it).
So yes, the Fighter could try to break Greater Invisibility by readying an attack when a spell is cast. But that's basically his only chance to get it. If he doesn't break the concentration on these hits then after that the Warlock moves away and Fighter will have to spend action on active Perception check or shoot in the void hoping for a stroke of luck.

This is also true.
But anyways, Malifice's comment fall short anyways. Because even if you consider what everyone does "simultaneous", it doesn't change the fact that people move and that this move is considered having a dedicated period of time (since you can move before an action or bonus action, after it, or in specific instances during it -aiming at Attack here-). Since the spell we talk about here is of an "instantaneous" duration, that means that the Warlock casting it will make lights and sounds during the 6 seconds, then the bolts will be unleashed instantly and he can move away after that during the "remaining time" of the round. Could we consider that the Fighter start attacking as soon as he sees the lights and sounds? Probably, but it would become tedious. First it would require some way to take the Initiative into account, by giving 1-2 second ahead for the one with the best Initiative. Second, we would have to start taking into account the time to shoot and travel speed of projectiles to see if the arrows fired have time to hit the Warlock before he start moving (no doubt at short range, less at longer). Same with EB going towards Fighter Do people really want to think about all this? :)

Also, that would make "reactions" kinda mull. Because it would mean in the previous example that, if Fighter hit the Warlock during the 6 seconds casting, it should logically (following the general rules of casting and concentration) make the casting fail. Hence martials would get very powerful on a basis against casters, without any need of feat or class features.

Disagree re blind sense.

You're removing the stealth requirement from hiding simply on account of masking your presence to a single sense (sight).

Stealth is two skills - move silent AND hide. Perception is listen AND spot.

If someone fires a gun at me a few times then dashes off 30' in the darkness I could still hear him.

By RAW, hidden is unseen AND unheard and it requires the use of the stealth proficiency. Spells like invisibility and darkness simply allow the stealth check in the first place (they're no different to the lock trying to hide behind any other form of heavy obscurement).

Casters can't auto-hide. They still need to have good Dex scores and proficiency in stealth. They also need to use the Hide action.

Better yet, they should be rogues.

I suppose the lock could catch the fighter by surprise and ambush him while invisible or something, but that's a little outside the realms of what the experiment is here.

Fighter wins. Hands down.

tieren

2016-05-09, 11:09 AM

Disagree re blind sense.

You're removing the stealth requirement from hiding simply on account of masking your presence to a single sense (sight).

Stealth is two skills - move silent AND hide. Perception is listen AND spot.

If someone fires a gun at me a few times then dashes off 30' in the darkness I could still hear him.

By RAW, hidden is unseen AND unheard and it requires the use of the stealth proficiency. Spells like invisibility and darkness simply allow the stealth check in the first place (they're no different to the lock trying to hide behind any other form of heavy obscurement).

Casters can't auto-hide. They still need to have good Dex scores and proficiency in stealth. They also need to use the Hide action.

Better yet, they should be rogues.

I suppose the lock could catch the fighter by surprise and ambush him while invisible or something, but that's a little outside the realms of what the experiment is here.

Fighter wins. Hands down.

This ^^^

Basically a straight lock can not become invisible and hide in the same round, that means there will be one turn where the fighter knows where you are and only attacks with disadvantage, the exact status given with the invisible condition. If he uses one of his action surges he will fire off 8 shots and some will hit, possibly breaking concentration and 1/2 the lock's spell slots got used up to impose disadvantage on some of one round's worth of attacks.

If you are lucky enough to hold concentration and then hide the next turn you did not attack and now the fighter has to actively try to perceive you, and if successful he can then action surge and use 4 shots to try to break your concentration.

If on the third round having maintained concentration during the last 2 when you were doing no damage, you then attack at advantage (assuming the fighter doesn't impose disadvantage by going prone or something) but have now lost the hidden condition and can be shot at with disadvantage again.

You really aren't going to be very successful doing much damage in this way at all.

Addaran

2016-05-09, 11:10 AM

Because in another thread someone said the warlock was so over powered that it could beat a level 20 fighter even at level 10.

So instead of derailing that thread, I started a new one where we could play around with the idea.

Ah! That does make a lot more sense.
A few specific warlock builds could probably beat a few specific fighter builds (that have weakness) but aside from that, i really don't see it happenning.

mgshamster

2016-05-09, 11:20 AM

MaxWilson

2016-05-09, 11:41 AM

At what level would the warlock be to "win hands down" against a level 20 fighter?

Note that this is different from there being a somewhat even chance of either one winning.

So let's define "win hands down" as winning around 90% of the time, give or take.

I'm pretty sure the warlock would have a good chance at level 17. True Polymorph is pretty sweet.

I'm not sure his odds would be 90%, but they'd probably be over 50%. Depends very much on the scenario though, because (among other factors) True Polymorph only lasts for 1 hour out of 24 hours in a day.

I don't think there is a level at which the warlock always wins 90% of the time regardless of scenario.

krugaan

2016-05-09, 01:01 PM

I can totally see that it is redundant for any normal game if you have already chosen expeditious retreat and fly - but for the situation in question - building a pvp character within an open scenario, I think it is unbeatable.

Fly uses up a spell slot and last 10 min maximum. Expeditious retreat lets you run around very fast... (but you want to be unreachable for all times...)

With the invocation, you can cast levitate without a spell slot and thus cast it over and over again - and in addition with mage hand as a cantrip, you can move an additional 30 feet per turn as bonus action. (Depending on your DM, you can also move 50 ft up / down instead of just 20 from levitate.) So arguably, you can cast it continously, because once you are up at around 1000 feet it takes longer to hit ground than to recast it.

This allows you to move up to the air and stay there long before even rolling for initiative. And all weapons and most spells have a very short range compared to Eldritch Blast, especially when enhanced with the Spell Sniper Feat and another invocation..

This is why I see the ascendant step invocation as a very tough problem the warlock build can pose to an opponent that is unique to the warlock (and to all other builds that include a naturally flying race and the spell sniper feat).

Everything else that was posted here does not allow specifically the warlock to take out a lvl 20 opponent and could be done with another class too (IMO, maybe I missed something).

Moving around with mage hand takes an action, not a bonus action, but that's a clever idea. Doesn't invalidate fly, though. This thread could be the impetus for a whole new power ranking: LTKF20 ... Level To Kill Fighter 20.

DeAnno

2016-05-09, 04:43 PM

It's like every time I visit this thread I see another reason to pick Monster Hunter if you have an eye to making battles with casters easier! You can burn a Superiority die to help spot the hidden creature, another one to help make sure your attack hits, and a third to give the Warlock disadvantage on his Constitution save to retain Concentration! You can even blow two on that last part if you want to deal a bit more damage to make the save even harder!

It's weird how Wizards finally made a specialist Anti-Spellcaster Fighter but didn't even name it for what it's job was :smalltongue:

Vogonjeltz

2016-05-10, 12:17 AM

Build a level 20 fighter and/or a level 10 warlock. Pit them together.

Who wins?

Let's see some actual builds here. No Schrodingers.

I mean...the Warlock has a number of insurmountable structural problems going in:

+4 prof bonus on that Warlock means their max DC is 17. With only two ASI, they would have to start with a racial bonus to charisma and expend both ASI to get to 20; meaning no feats and baseline stats otherwise. Only has 3 spell slots.

A fighter with no particular aptitude for ranged combat would be outputting 18 damage per round, which represents about 20% of a warlock with maximized hit points and the maximum con bonus (+2) that they could achieve from starting stat array if forced to place their 2 ASI into charisma.

Summation: Warlock is unable to survive 3 rounds of attacks by the Fighter. If the Warlock is unable to kill the Fighter by round 3, they can simply assume they've died.

All it takes is landing a single Hold Person on the Fighter and its over. They walk up and melee spell critical until the fighter is gone. The fighters 'stay alive' feature will only trigger a few times before it fails. They are not proficient against the Wisdom saving throw and likely dumped the Wisdom stat. This means a DC 17 Wisdom save with a +0 bonus. That's about 15% chance to make the save. If they somehow manage to make the save the Warlock has another slot to do it again. The chance to succeed twice on that save is 2.25%. After about 4 rounds there is a 48% chance they will make at least one save. So the Warlock has about 4 rounds to crit kill the fighter to death. I'd go with pact of the blade and choose the extra attack and the extra charisma damage which will probably be enough to take the fighter out.

Keep in mind the fighter can probably kill the Warlock in 2 rounds of 4 attacks. However the Warlock only has to land a single Hold Person to win and the Warlock will have the higher dexterity so that they will win initiative more often than not.

I don't agree with your supposition that a Fighter would dump Wisdom. It's far more likely a Fighter would set Intelligence and Charisma as their lower stats, making Wisdom, at worst, a mid-range stat. Assuming this is the case, they'd have at least a +1 to it; Making it a DC 16 check. There's no reason at all the Fighter wouldn't use Indomitability giving them at least a 43% chance of shrugging off the spell on the same round it's cast and a 57% chance of shrugging it off before the Warlock gets their next turn.

Let's say a hold person lands, how long will it take for the Warlock to try and kill the Fighter?
As we have posited that wis/cha/int are the three lowest stats, it stands to reason that str or dex would be #1 and Con #2; giving the Fighter, at a minimum, a +2 con mod giving the Fighter approximately 155 hp. Warlock maximum damage is 4d10, but because they can't take any feats their attacks have both advantage and disadvantage from within 5 feet, giving them only a normal chance of hitting (+9 vs AC 18 minimum) gives a 60% chance of hitting. Damage could be up to 4d10+10 (32 * .6 = 19.2) At 19.2 damage it would take the Warlock at least 9 rounds to kill the Fighter.

That's approximately 6 more rounds than all three hold person spells that the Warlock can cast are likely to last, and there's a less than even chance the Warlock will get even a single round of Hold Person attacks off on the Fighter.

This assumes no magic items at all, giving the Warlock the best possible chance of success. If magic items are in play, the Warlock has essentially no chance at all as the Fighter is certain to have magic armor rendering the chances of even hitting them remote.

The warlock has virtually no chance of winning this combat at all.

To be entirely fair to the Warlock, their chances of making the save get a good deal better if they have the War Caster feat.

Which they can't have AND have the 20 Charisma they need to do any damage at all. It's feats or ASI, but not both. (With variant human one feat is possible (At the cost of even lower stats).

Second, as JNA pointed out, under many interpretations of the (highly controversial) hiding rules, the location of all non-hidden creatures is automatically known, even when they can't be seen. (I don't rule that way, but it's a common interpretation.)

We don't even need to refer to the, allegedly controversial, sage advice, the Fighter can simply use movement to walk into the center space. If they walk into the Warlock (can't pass through the square of a hostile opponent) they know the location. If the warlock isn't there, the object projecting darkness is. Pick it up and pocket it, stopping the darkness.

I see everyone totally ignored the build I posted. It has the hp to survive and if you swap all the longbow stuff for Eldritch Blast stuff its pretty viable. It has around 300 hp virtually against the fighter.

Virtually being the operative word. And some of that virtual hp is based on being polymorphed into a T-rex or Mammoth.

if the Fighter is too lazy to stop a short rest

Bolded...if they're lazy, they're probably in a state of perpetual short restitude/long rest.

find someone hidden (which Darkness does).

Darkness does not make someone hidden. What it does do is provide conditions (heavily obscured) in which a character may take the hide action.

The greatest flaw of any "pure" Fighter build is, AFAIK, that he has no ability to discern invisible things without magic items.

"The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves."

Malifice

2016-05-10, 01:14 AM

I mean...the Warlock has a number of insurmountable structural problems going in:

+4 prof bonus on that Warlock means their max DC is 17. With only two ASI, they would have to start with a racial bonus to charisma and expend both ASI to get to 20; meaning no feats and baseline stats otherwise. Only has 3 spell slots.

2 spell slots. The third comes online at 11th level. Eldritch blast is dealing 1d10+5 damage at this level, with two blasts at +9. Assuming an AC of 18 for the fighter, were talking about around 12 DPR from the Warlock. Against (assuming con 12) 144 hit points (and a second wind of an extra 25 or so). So it'll take around 15 rounds to kill the Fighter.

The Fighter who has two action surges up his sleeve to dish out serious pain. I cant see a Warlock surviving those first two rounds.

If the lock is Vuman he does get a feat to go with his Cha of 20. Lets give him Alert for the lols.

A fighter with no particular aptitude for ranged combat would be outputting 18 damage per round, which represents about 20% of a warlock with maximized hit points and the maximum con bonus (+2) that they could achieve from starting stat array if forced to place their 2 ASI into charisma.

My switch hitter posted above has a dex of 18 and the sharpshooter feat (and archery F/S) plus a strength of 20 and GWM. So ranged wise, its either 8 attacks on turn one at +7 dealing 1d8+14 damage per hit (plus either +1d12 to hit to land them if they miss, or +1d12 to the damage with menacing strike if they land).

Considering an AC of around 16 is the best possible for the 'lock, just shooting a bow and spamming menacing strike (with action surge) the DPR on round 1 for the fighter is around 100 points of damage. Weve factored in a Dex of 16 and Cha of 20 for the 'lock, so I cant see Con being more than 14 (so 73 hit points).

The lock dies on turn 1 (unless he is resistant to piercing damage by virtue of Fiend pact, and our 20th level archer fighter left his magic bow at home).

Even with Alert, its initiative +8 on the 'lock vs initaitive +9 [and lucky] on the fighter. The fighter has the edge in going first.

I don't agree with your supposition that a Fighter would dump Wisdom.

Neither do I. Resilient [wisdom] is virtually a feat tax for mine. Leaves fighters proficient in Str, Con and Wis saves (the three big ones). Dex saves matter less (only half damage, and the fighter has the HP to soak these kinds of attacks). Cha and Int saves are rare enough not to matter, and the Fighter has lucky and indomitable to help him out here when they do crop up.

It's far more likely a Fighter would set Intelligence and Charisma as their lower stats, making Wisdom, at worst, a mid-range stat. Assuming this is the case, they'd have at least a +1 to it; Making it a DC 16 check. There's no reason at all the Fighter wouldn't use Indomitability giving them at least a 43% chance of shrugging off the spell on the same round it's cast and a 57% chance of shrugging it off before the Warlock gets their next turn.

Its worse than that. The Fighter gets a save on his turn as well (and an extra use of indomitable up his sleeve, and in my build also has lucky). So he attempts the save on the turn the 'lock casts the spell (with lucky and indomitable and maybe even resilient [wisdom]) and then on his turn, tries again (before the 'lock can take advantage of his paralysis).

Odds are Hold person doesnt stick, and even if it does, it should drop before the 'lock can take advantage of it.

This assumes no magic items at all, giving the Warlock the best possible chance of success. If magic items are in play, the Warlock has essentially no chance at all as the Fighter is certain to have magic armor rendering the chances of even hitting them remote.

Exactly. If magic items are in play, it favors the Fighter even more. Add magic arms and armor (and miscellaneous items) into the picture, and accounting for the fact the Fighter will have more (and more potent items) on account of advanced experience level, and its even more of a no-contest.

Virtually being the operative word. And some of that virtual hp is based on being polymorphed into a T-rex or Mammoth.

Which is a terrible idea. Ploymorph is concentration. The spell wont last more than a hit or two from the Fighter on the T-Rex (AC 13 and Con save +4) before knocking the 'lock back into his natural form. The 'lock cant cast in his polymorphed form and cant concentrate on any other spells, meaning all he can do (at this point) is to close to melee range or chose a form with a good movement rate, and run like hell.

Against a 20th level battlemaster fighter with GWM and sharpshooter, this is not a good move. If he closes to melee, he dies. If he runs away, he dies tired.

Darkness does not make someone hidden. What it does do is provide conditions (heavily obscured) in which a character may take the hide action.

Exactly.

Why some people still dont get this is beyond me.

MaxWilson

2016-05-10, 02:39 AM

Let's say a hold person lands, how long will it take for the Warlock to try and kill the Fighter?
As we have posited that wis/cha/int are the three lowest stats, it stands to reason that str or dex would be #1 and Con #2; giving the Fighter, at a minimum, a +2 con mod giving the Fighter approximately 155 hp. Warlock maximum damage is 4d10, but because they can't take any feats their attacks have both advantage and disadvantage from within 5 feet, giving them only a normal chance of hitting (+9 vs AC 18 minimum) gives a 60% chance of hitting. Damage could be up to 4d10+10 (32 * .6 = 19.2) At 19.2 damage it would take the Warlock at least 9 rounds to kill the Fighter.

Ranged attacks don't take disadvantage unless there's a non-incapacitated enemy within 5'. A paralyzed enemy is incapacitated and doesn't count.

krugaan

2016-05-10, 02:52 AM

Ranged attacks don't take disadvantage unless there's a non-incapacitated enemy within 5'. A paralyzed enemy is incapacitated and doesn't count.

Jesus, you're right. I always thought it was just <= 5' is disadvatage without feats. Learn something every day!

Zalabim

2016-05-10, 04:41 AM

Depending on your DM, you can't fly around with Mage Hand+Ascendant Step because you weigh more than 10 pounds and you aren't an object. Mage Hand cannot move you, and you weigh too much for Mage Hand to haul you around by a rope.

wunderkid

2016-05-10, 07:19 AM

I'm afb right now, but for me personally my approach would go along the lines of invisibility. Sleight of hand the fighters ranged weapons away and retreat to a safe distance. (Or a familiar doing this part). If it fails you're dead. But you were dead in a stand up fight anyway. If they are holding their ranged weapon in hand or have multiple back up weapons this also doesn't work. (Although you could try to make them draw their melee weapon through shenanigans) But hey you're pitting a level 10 against a 20. There's going to be almost no 'I win in any situation'.

Following this an armour of aga combined with peppering from a range. Assuming he does close the distance and get into melee then that's minimum 70 damage from armour of aga, and hopefully between repelling blasts and kiting you can throw out enough damage. If you get the chance recast armour. (Can't remember how many spell slots a 10 lock has if it's 2 disregard that bit)

Definitely not a guaranteed win. But it's the best shot I can see a 10 lock having.

Also a good tactic for darkness is cast it on a rock on the end of a length of rope. You're no longer at the centre of the darkness it still moves with you and your free object interaction can tug or fwing the rope to move it a little . Or do the same and give the rock to your familiar. Doesn't eliminate the hide requirement but it stops it being obvious that you're in the centre.

Now a bard, that's a level 10 I could see doing pretty dang well against a 20 (non ek) fighter. I'd have to do the maths but I'm pretty sure it could win more often than not.

Edit: I checked it is only the two spell slots for 10th so ignore the extra casting of armour of aga. But the aim of the game stays the same, remove the fighters ranged weapons and hope you can kite out enough damage. Again not a reliable tactic but closest I can figure off the top of my head.

Now more interestingly I'd like to know how much better a 12th level warlock would do. Would the extra asi, eb and 2 spell slots sway it in the locks favour?

TheTeaMustFlow

2016-05-10, 08:43 AM

Now more interestingly I'd like to know how much better a 12th level warlock would do. Would the extra asi, eb and 2 spell slots sway it in the locks favour?

12th level helps the Warlock some, but I don't think it's enough to turn the tables. 13th, on the other hand, makes it interesting, as the Warlock gets access to Forcecage, which can reliably shut down any fighter apart from an Eldritch Knight (and it's fairly good against them - maybe they don't have Misty Step or Dimension Door, and how many fighters do you know with a decent Charisma save?) for an hour. Then it's only a matter of finding a way to kill them from behind an impenetrable wall, or you just scarper.

Pity Warlocks don't get Cloudkill... come to think of it, why don't they get cloudkill? It's such a nasty spell, you'd think they'd be all over it.

PoeticDwarf

2016-05-10, 09:02 AM

Build a level 20 fighter and/or a level 10 warlock. Pit them together.

Who wins?

Let's see some actual builds here. No Schrodingers.

Wow. Fighter would easily win.

wunderkid

2016-05-10, 09:06 AM

Invisible imp holding gas of some description, solid cage, an hour worth of checks perhaps? Still needs to win initative. Can't remember how suffocation works but that could be the way forward.

But then this doesn't feel like a 'warlock' win more of a generic caster play.

I mean it's nothing a bard couldn't do better.

Although for a level 10 bard I'd simply open with invisibility to allow for the setup although mundane stealth would work alright too. Follwed by max range heat metal, misty step + move to a position you can't be shot/reached. Move maybe misty and Hide the next turn. Laugh manically (internally) as the fighters takes 5d8 damage per turn for 10 turns. The example iirc had around 200 hp. The average damage you could pull off with heat metal is 225.

Iirc his passive perception was 18. The bards stealth at that level would be +12 before rolling so he has a fairly good chance of sneaking it up. One uncommon (maybe common I don't have the book to check the cloak of elven kind) magical item tips it insanely in his favour giving him advantage on stealth and dropping the fighters passive perception to 13/ disadvantage. Of course there aren't magical items in this but I can't see the fighter picking a single super low item that will have as much of an impact.

Winning is obviously not a given you're against a level 20 for flips sake but I think the bard could have a better chance than a lock.

wunderkid

2016-05-10, 09:23 AM

Fighter than novas, Action Surging for 8 attacks at +8, so needing 8s to hit. Hits 65% of the time, so that's 5 hits, each for 1d8+15 damage. That's 97~98 damage, resisted, so it's really 49. The Warlock is now half-dead. (Fighter also moves 45' away.)

A snippet from earlier my phone wasn't letting me quote it...

Just looking at this bit again. With regards to if you can somehow pilfer the fighters ranged options away from him (I also realised that taking ammo would work too. So even with him holding the weapon a quiver 'could' be lifted).

Can't remember where locks get resistance from as I'm afb. But with that in mind on average an attack does 9-10 damage. So that one casting of armour will reflect 140 damage. That's most of the fighters health gone off a single casting with only 15 of the locks health gone and one of the fighters action surges blown.

Of course this is all assuming you somehow pilfer his ranged weapons/ammo. Which is easier said than done. And still leaves you with some more damage to deal.

But so far the closest I can come to a warlock beating this insane challenge.

Gwendol

2016-05-10, 12:26 PM

Any fighter 20 will in general beat a lvl 10 warlock.

Misterwhisper

2016-05-10, 12:52 PM

MaxWilson

2016-05-10, 01:23 PM

wunderkid

2016-05-10, 01:45 PM

There is no feasible way for a level 10 warlock to ever beat a level 20 fighter unless the warlock got to set the exact specifics of the fight HIGHLY in their favor, or way outside the bell curve dice rolls.

The warlock is one of the weakest classes ever designed for D&D, who've said they were broken is just plain wrong.

Their damage is only average.
They are much better off 2 or 3 levels of warlock and then something else.
Their spell pool is so small they will never be able to keep up with actual full casters.
Their ac is going to be pretty horrible.
Their HP is average at best.
They do not have real spell slots over 5th level spells so they do not even get to option to overcast 6th through 9th level spells.
they get fewer 6th and 7th level spells than actual full casters.
They never get to change their 6th through 9th level spells, which is just plain stupid.

Their only positives are that they have a great cantrip for other people to steal nd use better, and they have a darkness gimmick that everyone also just steals and uses better.

Best fluff and RP I'm the game, but worst class design.

Assuming your dm follows the 8 encounters per day and you can rest between them at max level
4x8 = 32 spells in a day. This is frankly ridiculous and no GM would allow this.

At 6 encounters per day that's 24.

if you have a dm who is incredibly stringent on short rests and you only get 2/3 you're still going to be on around 12/16 spells a day all at 5th level not including mystic arc which adds 4 spell slots. Putting you at 36, 28, 20/16 spells per day respectively.

Full caster gets 22 spells per day. They only get +1 6th slot. +1 7th slot, then its equal 8 and 9 and -1 5th level slot. But hey you've got all those awesome low level slots still... which probably do less than EB at this point.

So for that fight before dredging the weaker spells in your reserve you get one whole extra spell than the warlock! Gasp.

Assuming in that first fight you have to blow your 5-9th level spells. And the warlock does the same. You would have cast a whole 1 more spell than him.

Then he short rests and suddenly is considerably better than the 'full caster'.

Their HP is average when compared to all classes but well above average when comparing casters which is what you're doing.

Their ac will be no worse than a full casters (bar cleric because they get full plate shenanigans)

Define 'real' spell slots. Because they get 1 8th and 1 9th same as other full casters. Only thing they miss out on is the 2nd 6th and 7th slots. And if losing those two slots really doesnt mean that much.

Pick your spells well. This is a downside but it's not exactly huge.

Yes warlocks dip very well but they aren't any weaker as a pure class than another caster. The only time they get weaker is if your dm almost never allows short rests. If your dm allows too many short rests they actually become far more powerful but in the sweet spot they are very well balanced.

Lastly pit me in a room with the fighter without ranged weaponry and my level 10 warlock has a good chance of beating the fighter (non ek). No ranged weapons isn't exactly putting the fight HIGHLY in my favour. And I'd say 10 levels for no ranged weaponry seems like a fair trade to me. No guarantee I'll win but I have a chance. If you honestly expect any level 10 to auto beat a level 20 then your idea of balance is a lot more off than I first thought

MaxWilson

2016-05-10, 01:53 PM

Lastly pit me in a room with the fighter without ranged weaponry and my level 10 warlock has a good chance of beating the fighter (non ek). No ranged weapons isn't exactly putting the fight HIGHLY in my favour. And I'd say 10 levels for no ranged weaponry seems like a fair trade to me. No guarantee I'll win but I have a chance. If you honestly expect any level 10 to auto beat a level 20 then your idea of balance is a lot more off than I first thought

That's an interesting claim. If you put two restrictions on the fighter (no ranged weaponry, non-EK) "in a room" the warlock has a "good chance" of beating the fighter. I assume you're just going to levitate over his head and EB him to death, right? Because that's your only hope, and it illustrates perfectly why no fighter should ever be without a ranged attack of some sort.

smcmike

2016-05-10, 01:58 PM

tieren

2016-05-10, 02:11 PM

RulesJD

2016-05-10, 02:14 PM

Presumably a rather high-ceilinged room....

Fighter takes out a Grappling Hook attached to 50ft of rope. Throws it at you Indiana Jones style.

Better be a high ceiling.

But I mean seriously, what level 20 Fighter wouldn't have at least some sort of Ranged weapon?

wunderkid

2016-05-10, 02:14 PM

That's an interesting claim. If you put two restrictions on the fighter (no ranged weaponry, non-EK) "in a room" the warlock has a "good chance" of beating the fighter. I assume you're just going to levitate over his head and EB him to death, right? Because that's your only hope, and it illustrates perfectly why no fighter should ever be without a ranged attack of some sort.

No nothing so crass as cheesy levitation shenanigans. And the non ek has been a core principle of this entire thread. Ek just wins basically. Pointless even trying to argue about fighting a level 20 one of those.

Armour of agathys.

35 temp hit points.

Fighter with gwm and a gw will hit you for d12 (7) +15. Halved because of damage reduction. So 11. That means 4 attacks on average to pop the armour. Which means he takes 140 damage.
I then recast it once it's popped. That's 280 damage. Even if he maxes out his damage rolls he takes 3 attacks to pop it. 205 damage which iirc is exactly his hp?

Lasts an hour. No concentration.

If you can pilfer his ranged weapons beforehand which isn't going to be impossible but wouldn't be easy then you have a 'good' (when I say good I mean good for a 10th level character in this example not that you have a good chance overall) chance of winning the stand up fight. Of course dice rolls could swing that either way and more likely in favour of the fighter.

So a single restriction.

But hey he is double your level, and clearly not scared of you for that reason, baiting him into a melee fight shouldn't be that hard even without thieving shenanigans. And you will have a good charisma being a warlock too.

krugaan

2016-05-10, 02:27 PM

No nothing so crass as cheesy levitation shenanigans. And the non ek has been a core principle of this entire thread. Ek just wins basically. Pointless even trying to argue about fighting a level 20 one of those.

Armour of agathys.

35 temp hit points.

Fighter with gwm and a gw will hit you for d12 (7) +15. Halved because of damage reduction. So 11. That means 4 attacks on average to pop the armour. Which means he takes 140 damage.
I then recast it once it's popped. That's 280 damage. Even if he maxes out his damage rolls he takes 3 attacks to pop it. 205 damage which iirc is exactly his hp?

Lasts an hour. No concentration.

If you can pilfer his ranged weapons beforehand which isn't going to be impossible but wouldn't be easy then you have a 'good' (when I say good I mean good for a 10th level character in this example not that you have a good chance overall) chance of winning the stand up fight. Of course dice rolls could swing that either way and more likely in favour of the fighter.

So a single restriction.

But hey he is double your level, and clearly not scared of you for that reason, baiting him into a melee fight shouldn't be that hard even without thieving shenanigans. And you will have a good charisma being a warlock too.

isn't it 5 points / level, so 25 points? That cuts it down to three hits for 75 damage, which you can cast twice for 150 damage.

MaxWilson

2016-05-10, 02:33 PM

No nothing so crass as cheesy levitation shenanigans. And the non ek has been a core principle of this entire thread. Ek just wins basically. Pointless even trying to argue about fighting a level 20 one of those.

Armour of agathys.

35 temp hit points.

Fighter with gwm and a gw will hit you for d12 (7) +15. Halved because of damage reduction. So 11. That means 4 attacks on average to pop the armour. Which means he takes 140 damage.

You only have damage resistance against non-magical, non-silvered weapons of one damage type. Either you have to add a new restriction ("and he doesn't have any silvered or magical weapons, and he only ever uses greatswords and never mauls or pikes, and never thinks to improvise a weapon") or you cut that in half.

But just for fun, let's say he does agree to fight you only with a nonmagical greatsword. Will you win then?

Let's say he's a battlemaster with Precise Strike, Alert and Lucky. Let's say you beat his initiative anyway. On round one, he smashes you prone and then Action Surges for a total of seven attacks. Your AC is roughly 15ish, and he's got advantage, so after accounting for your resistance and his precise strike he'll do about 70 points of damage to you on average. In exchange he'll take two or three hits from Armor of Agathys, let's say 75 points of damage, and then he'll heal about 25 points of damage with Second Wind. At this point he's at what, 75% health, and you're hovering around 0%. And then you get to do it again.

Even with all the odds (including initiative) stacked in your favor, it doesn't look good for the warlock.

Edit: oh, and you also have to stipulate that the Battlemaster didn't take Magic Initiate (e.g. Booming Blade, Fire Bolt, Absorb Elements would completely wreck your warlock's strategy) so as to never be without a ranged attack. So there's yet another restriction needed in order for the warlock to have a non-zero chance of success.

Cazero

2016-05-10, 02:57 PM

No nothing so crass as cheesy levitation shenanigans. And the non ek has been a core principle of this entire thread. Ek just wins basically. Pointless even trying to argue about fighting a level 20 one of those.

Armour of agathys.

35 temp hit points.

Fighter with gwm and a gw will hit you for d12 (7) +15. Halved because of damage reduction. So 11. That means 4 attacks on average to pop the armour. Which means he takes 140 damage.
I then recast it once it's popped. That's 280 damage. Even if he maxes out his damage rolls he takes 3 attacks to pop it. 205 damage which iirc is exactly his hp?

Lasts an hour. No concentration.

If you can pilfer his ranged weapons beforehand which isn't going to be impossible but wouldn't be easy then you have a 'good' (when I say good I mean good for a 10th level character in this example not that you have a good chance overall) chance of winning the stand up fight. Of course dice rolls could swing that either way and more likely in favour of the fighter.

So a single restriction.

But hey he is double your level, and clearly not scared of you for that reason, baiting him into a melee fight shouldn't be that hard even without thieving shenanigans. And you will have a good charisma being a warlock too.

With his first attack, the fighter grapples you. With his second attack, he locks your arms with one hand to deny you attacks and somatic and material components. With his third attack, he start strangulating you with his other hand, putting you into suffocation and denying verbal components. With his fourth attack, he might try to speed things up and break your neck. None of those triggered armor of agathys, he can stall like this for hours since you can't do anything else than try to escape only to get caught again, and action surge can give him a lot of retries if you've been particularly lucky in a given round.

Alternatively, he kills you by repeatingly throwing a rock at you. Or his helmet.

RulesJD

2016-05-10, 03:21 PM

With his first attack, the fighter grapples you. With his second attack, he locks your arms with one hand to deny you attacks and somatic and material components. With his third attack, he start strangulating you with his other hand, putting you into suffocation and denying verbal components. With his fourth attack, he might try to speed things up and break your neck. None of those triggered armor of agathys, he can stall like this for hours since you can't do anything else than try to escape only to get caught again, and action surge can give him a lot of retries if you've been particularly lucky in a given round.

Alternatively, he kills you by repeatingly throwing a rock at you. Or his helmet.

Most of what you suggested is not necessarily legal by RAW, but what is....

1. If a BM, just use Disarm and take the Warlock's Spell Focus. No more spells, wait an hour, beat to death.

2. If a Champion, Grapple -> Prone. Then, wielding the Warlock as an Improvised Weapon, beat him against the ground for 1d4+STR damage per attack. The Champion isn't "hitting" the Warlock, the ground is. So the ground takes 25 Cold damage. Rinse, repeat until AoA wears off.

Misterwhisper

2016-05-10, 03:44 PM

Armor of Agathys only cause damage while you still have those Temporary Hp. So that 25 Hp damage retaliation cold attack is going to last at most 2 hits, could easily be gone in one.

JoeJ

2016-05-10, 03:47 PM

if you have a dm who is incredibly stringent follows the guidelines in the DMG on short rests and you only get 2/3 you're still going to be on around 12/16 spells a day all at 5th level not including mystic arc which adds 4 spell slots.

Fixed that for you. And that's a 20th level, not 10th.

krugaan

2016-05-10, 03:47 PM

Armor of Agathys only cause damage while you still have those Temporary Hp. So that 25 Hp damage retaliation cold attack is going to last at most 2 hits, could easily be gone in one.

Yeah, we know that, we're factoring in fiendish resistance. On average it'll be 11 damage, so, three hits.

wunderkid

2016-05-10, 03:50 PM

You only have damage resistance against non-magical, non-silvered weapons of one damage type. Either you have to add a new restriction ("and he doesn't have any silvered or magical weapons, and he only ever uses greatswords and never mauls or pikes, and never thinks to improvise a weapon") or you cut that in half.

But just for fun, let's say he does agree to fight you only with a nonmagical greatsword. Will you win then?

Let's say he's a battlemaster with Precise Strike, Alert and Lucky. Let's say you beat his initiative anyway. On round one, he smashes you prone and then Action Surges for a total of seven attacks. Your AC is roughly 15ish, and he's got advantage, so after accounting for your resistance and his precise strike he'll do about 70 points of damage to you on average. In exchange he'll take two or three hits from Armor of Agathys, let's say 75 points of damage, and then he'll heal about 25 points of damage with Second Wind. At this point he's at what, 75% health, and you're hovering around 0%. And then you get to do it again.

Even with all the odds (including initiative) stacked in your favor, it doesn't look good for the warlock.

Edit: oh, and you also have to stipulate that the Battlemaster didn't take Magic Initiate (e.g. Booming Blade, Fire Bolt, Absorb Elements would completely wreck your warlock's strategy) so as to never be without a ranged attack. So there's yet another restriction needed in order for the warlock to have a non-zero chance of success.

Yeah no idea where i got 35 from that was completely my bad its been a long day is all i can say and it factored a lot into my theory crafting i am retracting the chance of winning being good due to the mega damage loss from my miscalculation.

But

no magical items has once again been a running theme in this thread. and nobody walks around with silvered weapons. and i cant see many battlemasters picking up magic initiate, its a strict DPS loss for 99% of situations especially booming blade, but utility for others which is what they would pick up from it rather than damaging cantrips that pale next to their damage. but hey if youre talking about counter building to try and beat a level 10 with a level 20 then thats pretty shocking. fighters get 7 ASIs. 2 are gone to max out str, 1 for wisdom saves, lucky, alert, GWM, and then likely CON for the last. that would be your typical build for using ASIs, you may pick up something slightly different but at its core it will be close to that.

The warlock would likely take lucky and Cha for his two pretty standard.

Initiative wise you're probably looking at being +3 over him. so out of 20 fights you act first in 13 he acts first in 7. but assuming the warlock does act first for the purposes of this because he is flat out dead if he doesnt act first and has no prebuffing. (again i am not even remotely claiming the warlock would have won reliably, just that he would have had a chance if my misremembering of armor was in fact right)

Assuming youre putting the stipulation of its a fight out of the blue into it then obviously the lock wouldnt have pre-buffed. if he knew it was coming at all then due to the long duration on armor he could keep it up ready. but lets assume its not up because clearly the fighter needs every advantage he can get.

So you start your attacks.

First one being a shove attempt im guessing? if so then i believe thats 25 damage there (it is a melee attack although it could be argued it doesnt hit so we will ignore that for this so it doesnt devolve into a discussion about that). the shove attempt will most likely be successful, youre at +11 he is at +5, still a chance for you to fail though but unlikely so lets assume it pulls off.

assuming every single attack hits from there on in thanks to advantage and precision. youre hitting for about 11 damage per attack. 77 total. 25 of which is soaked by the armor. you taking 75.
you then second wind.

End of round 1. youve taken 50. Warlock has taken 52.

round 2. well you can basically call this a repeat of round 1 minus the second wind.
Youve taken by this point 125, warlock has taken 104.

There is very very little 'stacked' in my favor. No ranged weapons and you not trying to counter build to fight a level 10. Stacked in my favor would be no weapons at all, prebuffing, choosing the perfect location to fight, getting an ambush off etc. In fact no preparations is stacking the fight in the fighters favor as his strength is that he doesnt need to prebuff to fight at full power.

I am theory crafting a level 10 vs a level 20. the odds of winning were always going to be slim (although the bard has a much greater chance). But for a level 10 to actually trade back more damage than taken against something DOUBLE his level is immensely strong. Like i said my memory tripped me up by thinking that armor was 35, i was misremembering my gish which used 7th level slots to pimp out the armor. So with that in mind i retract that it has a good chance of winning. It however trades incredibly hard for half of the level of the fighter. If you put the warlock to 12th level (which is what I suggested earlier) he would have a better chance. hitting the 200 damage mark vs 150ish taken. Still most likely going to end in a loss, but will fare better.

Also yeah... no...

the grappled condition does not prevent any access to semantic or material components. it does not strangle people to stop verbal components and does not cut off air supply. and attempting to break his neck would 100% be a melee attack which in turn would proc armor, grappling is still a melee attack, it doesnt use the keyword 'hit' which is the RAW reason it wont proc armor although RAI and by id imagine almost any GMs call, grappling the aura of cold that entirely covers the warlock and is what causes the damage would proc on a grapple. But thats RAI, blindingly obvious RAI but RAI nonetheless.

also a warlock will have a component pouch so his focus isnt vital just useful. Also a living being is not an improvised weapon. an improvised weapon is an object you can wield in one or two hands.

wunderkid

2016-05-10, 03:55 PM

Fixed that for you. And that's a 20th level, not 10th.

That was a counter point of warlock vs caster, not level 10 vs 20.

even at the 2 short rests thats only 6 spell slots over a day behind the full caster, thats less than 1 spell per fight difference. with the warlock maintaining level 5+ on every cast. and 13 (more than half) of the casters spells being level 4 or lower.

You could easily argue in terms of slot economy that the warlock actually comes out ahead of the full caster by the end of the day.

Just trying to point out that warlocks are not by any means an underpowered class

Giant2005

2016-05-10, 04:05 PM

wunderkid

2016-05-10, 04:15 PM

The Champion has an even easier time of it. As long as he takes the dodge action, the Warlock cannot out-damage his regen. All he needs to do is realize that Armor of Agathys hurts and then wait it out.

I do like the Magic Initiate thing though - a Fighter could take that and Spell Sniper and easily defeat the Warlock in a magical duel. That just seems so much more humbling to the overreaching Warlock.

Well the fighter could beat the half his level warlock in a magical duel, equal footings though it's basically a dead feat for the offence side of things. Could totally see it on a conceptualised character, just not as a staple part of every build.

And yeah that's why I suggested level 12 warlock, it may just be able to hedge things in its favor (well it will still lose most likely but it gets a fairly large jump in power with the 3rd asi extra ebolt and spell slots.)

Misterwhisper

2016-05-10, 04:22 PM

That was a counter point of warlock vs caster, not level 10 vs 20.

even at the 2 short rests thats only 6 spell slots over a day behind the full caster, thats less than 1 spell per fight difference. with the warlock maintaining level 5+ on every cast. and 13 (more than half) of the casters spells being level 4 or lower.

You could easily argue in terms of slot economy that the warlock actually comes out ahead of the full caster by the end of the day.

Just trying to point out that warlocks are not by any means an underpowered class

That would be fine if it was not for the fact that the 2 other primary arcane casters can do it too, and sorcerers do it better.

The Wizard can also get back a 5th level spell slot after a short rest once a day at level 10, or he can break it up into smaller increments, and still has 13 more spells than the warlock can cast.

At level 10 the warlock will have a grand total of 2 spells of 5th level, and not a thing more, no utility 1st through 4ths or backups. Want to cast darkness, yeah it can not be upcast past second level slots but oh well, burn that 5th level slot. Same with Hunger of Hadar or multiple others.

Now while you can take a short rest and get those whole 2 slots back after an hour...

The sorcerer also has 2 5th level slots, but he also has 31 spell levels that the warlock does not even get.
Thanks to the wonder of Sorcery points he also will have 10 built in sorcery points.
Buying a 5th level spell slot is only 7 sorcerery points, so he could blow the spell levels the warlock never gets in the first place to cast... shock, 7 level 5 spells a day and have 6 sorcery points left over for whatever he felt like powering in metamagic, and does not even need one short rest at all to do it.
So the warlock can cast 2 spells, rest an hour, cast 2 spells, short rest, cast 2 spells, and that is about it.
The Warlock can cast his 2, spend 12 seconds burning and converting and repeats, ending up casting more spells than the warlock anyway, and never even needs a short rest to do it, also does not have to do it at all if they do not want because they could just use those 13 other spells to cast whatever they want.
On top of that the Sorcerer:
gets Metamagics which are amazing
can actually change what spells they know past level 5 spells if they need to based on the campaign or upcoming plot changes ect.
can also actually overcast using slots for their level 6 through 9 spells which the warlock can not do at all.
can learn more than one spell per level for level 6 through 9 spells.

The Warlock is a horrible mechanic design that has to be coddled by the GM just to be able to get close to breaking even with the other arcane casters.
What if your GM does not care for short rests much, and has a fight about once or twice an adventuring day and then just does a long rest?

The warlock is borderline unplayable.
They are amazing fluff, with some unique gimmick abilities, but you will never pull your weight in a group.

If Sorcerers and Wizards did not have a way to also get spells back, and sorcerers do it even better and faster than the ability the entire Warlock is built around, it would not be so bad.

RulesJD

2016-05-10, 04:23 PM

*snip*
assuming every single attack hits from there on in thanks to advantage and precision. youre hitting for about 11 damage per attack. 77 total. 25 of which is soaked by the armor. you taking 75.
you then second wind.

*snip*

Also yeah... no...

*snip*

also a warlock will have a component pouch so his focus isnt vital just useful. Also a living being is not an improvised weapon. an improvised weapon is an object you can wield in one or two hands.

1. We're talking a fight against a BM, you forgot to factor in the Maneuver die + GWF into your damage calculation if he isn't using them for Precision. With damage modifier, average damage would be somewhere in the realm of:

1d10 (PAM = ~6 with GWM) + 15 + 4.5. So very rough average damage of ~25.5, resisted down to 12.

Except...

Presuming you did slashing, the butt end of the PAM is Bludgeoning, thus bypasses the resistance. Soooo, 1d4 (~3 with GWM) + 15 + 4.5. So that damage would be ~22.5, not resisted. Aka in 2 hits (1st main Attack, Bonus Action Butt End) your AoA is toast. So 50 damage to the Fighter, and more damage to the Warlock.

FYI, my generic level 20 BM would be PAM (V Human), GWM (4), Sentinel (6), Res (Wis)(8), +4 Str (12/14), +2 Con (16), Toughness (18)

If he hadn't found a magic weapon by 12, I would have taken Magic Initiate (Druid) for Guidance, Shillelagh, Absorb Elements). Guidance for Initiative Rolls and Shillelagh because it pairs with PAM (sadly not GWM) and Sentinel.

Skylivedk

2016-05-10, 04:23 PM

Just trying to point out that warlocks are not by any means an underpowered class

Did anyone think the warlock was underpowered?

Geez... that's a long (albeit quite entertaining) theory-craft duel for a rather stupid point. Then again. Real noblemen die over dumb sh*t.

Cazero

2016-05-10, 05:00 PM

Also yeah... no...

the grappled condition does not prevent any access to semantic or material components. it does not strangle people to stop verbal components and does not cut off air supply.
You don't get it. Grappling doesn't do all that, but the grapple is only the first attack. The fighter has three more to convert into physical contests to apply additional effects that require a grapple to be possible, such as armlock, strangulation, etc.
Also, as others pointed out, this was completely overkill since a simple disarm is more than enough to disable most spellcasting.

and attempting to break his neck would 100% be a melee attack which in turn would proc armor, grappling is still a melee attack, it doesnt use the keyword 'hit' which is the RAW reason it wont proc armor although RAI and by id imagine almost any GMs call, grappling the aura of cold that entirely covers the warlock and is what causes the damage would proc on a grapple. But thats RAI, blindingly obvious RAI but RAI nonetheless.
Whatever. The point is that the warlock will never get the opportunity to refresh the spell after the first round. It will never deal the astronomical amount of damage you calculated.

also a warlock will have a component pouch so his focus isnt vital just useful. Also a living being is not an improvised weapon. an improvised weapon is an object you can wield in one or two hands.
A component pouch is even more vulnerable to disarm than a magical focus. At least you can pick it up after the fight, while the component pouch will be torn apart and spread all it's content on the ground when hit with a bladed weapon.

MaxWilson

2016-05-10, 05:03 PM

no magical items has once again been a running theme in this thread. and nobody walks around with silvered weapons. and i cant see many battlemasters picking up magic initiate, its a strict DPS loss for 99% of situations especially booming blade, but utility for others which is what they would pick up from it rather than damaging cantrips that pale next to their damage. but hey if youre talking about counter building to try and beat a level 10 with a level 20 then thats pretty shocking. fighters get 7 ASIs. 2 are gone to max out str, 1 for wisdom saves, lucky, alert, GWM, and then likely CON for the last. that would be your typical build for using ASIs, you may pick up something slightly different but at its core it will be close to that.

That's not a counter-build against the warlock, it's my stab at building a battlemaster who walks around without any ranged weapons all the time. A normal battlemaster would just have a bow or something.

The logic goes like this: Fighters have two extra ASIs. Battlemasters already have a terrific opportunity attack due to superiority dice, but let's see if we can max out the opportunity attack to become really sticky. And Sentinel is boring (and beatable) so let's not use it. Instead, we'll take Magic Initiate for Booming Blade, which means we might as well pick up Fire Bolt and Absorb Elements at the same time (because Absorb Elements may save your life someday, e.g. against an ancient red dragon--Find Familiar would be my other top pick). Then we take Warcaster, and now an opportunity attack can do a max of:

2d6+15+7d8 (54) points of damage (35.5 initially, 18 more if the target keeps moving) plus another d12 if I spend superiority dice (e.g. Trip attack to hinder movement and set up for next round).

That is way better than Sentinel at preventing people from bypassing you, and no longer does anyone particularly want to be the guy who tries it first because it doesn't just cost their movement for the turn (which means you just Ready a move for the next guy's turn, since the Sentinel guy has already spent his reaction--Sentinel only drops your speed to zero for a turn, not a round).

I still think Eldritch Knights are far superior to battlemasters, and if I were playing a battlemaster I would just carry a longbow (even if I were Str-based), but the above is what I would rationally do if I for some reason felt like playing a melee battlemaster who didn't carry missile weapons.

The fact that it trashes a 10th level warlock in a cage match is ho hum, not interesting. It's not specialized for warlock-hunting, it's specialized for melee.

TheTeaMustFlow

2016-05-10, 05:15 PM

nobody walks around with silvered weapons

They don't? Why the calisse de tabarnak not? It costs a hundred freaking gp, that's less than decent armour. Once you've got any cash to spare whatsoever, a PC shouldn't be carrying any weapons that aren't silvered.

Misterwhisper

2016-05-10, 05:17 PM

They don't? Why the calisse de tabarnak not? It costs a hundred freaking gp, that's less than decent armour. Once you've got any cash to spare whatsoever, a PC shouldn't be carrying any weapons that aren't silvered.

More to the point, why are their no magic items?
If there are no magic items, what did the fighter at level 20 spend his mountains of gold on for the last few years?

JoeJ

2016-05-10, 05:19 PM

More to the point, why are their no magic items?
If there are no magic items, what did the fighter at level 20 spend his mountains of gold on for the last few years?

A gold plated house and a rocket car?

krugaan

2016-05-10, 05:23 PM

A gold plated house and a rocket car?

I wonder how much damage a gold plated house does when thrown.

Probably more than the rocket car.

Although, if the rocket car explodes...

Shaofoo

2016-05-10, 05:37 PM

I wonder how much damage a gold plated house does when thrown.

Probably more than the rocket car.

Although, if the rocket car explodes...

They are both improvised weapons so 1d4 damage. Maybe you can get an extra point of fire damage on the rocket car if the DM is generous.

krugaan

2016-05-10, 05:43 PM

They are both improvised weapons so 1d4 damage. Maybe you can get an extra point of fire damage on the rocket car if the DM is generous.

HILL GIANT: ME GRAB TREE! CRUSH YOU!

/deals 1d4 + str mod damage

HILL GIANT: YOU WAIT!

/whittles tree down into vague club shape

HILL GIANT: SMASH!

/deals 1d8 + str mod damage.

Oh god, you can use the improvised weapon rule to counter all sorts of foolish claims!

MUNCHKIN: I use minor conjuration to create a pound of anti-matter! DIE WORLD!

DM: 1d4 ... uhm, energy damage I guess.

MUNCHKIN: what?

DM: are you proficient in anti-matter?

MUNCHKIN: ... no.

DM: no proficiency bonus to hit. Or damage.

wunderkid

2016-05-10, 06:32 PM

That would be fine if it was not for the fact that the 2 other primary arcane casters can do it too, and sorcerers do it better.

The Wizard can also get back a 5th level spell slot after a short rest once a day at level 10, or he can break it up into smaller increments, and still has 13 more spells than the warlock can cast.

At level 10 the warlock will have a grand total of 2 spells of 5th level, and not a thing more, no utility 1st through 4ths or backups. Want to cast darkness, yeah it can not be upcast past second level slots but oh well, burn that 5th level slot. Same with Hunger of Hadar or multiple others.

Now while you can take a short rest and get those whole 2 slots back after an hour...

The sorcerer also has 2 5th level slots, but he also has 31 spell levels that the warlock does not even get.
Thanks to the wonder of Sorcery points he also will have 10 built in sorcery points.
Buying a 5th level spell slot is only 7 sorcerery points, so he could blow the spell levels the warlock never gets in the first place to cast... shock, 7 level 5 spells a day and have 6 sorcery points left over for whatever he felt like powering in metamagic, and does not even need one short rest at all to do it.
So the warlock can cast 2 spells, rest an hour, cast 2 spells, short rest, cast 2 spells, and that is about it.
The Warlock can cast his 2, spend 12 seconds burning and converting and repeats, ending up casting more spells than the warlock anyway, and never even needs a short rest to do it, also does not have to do it at all if they do not want because they could just use those 13 other spells to cast whatever they want.
On top of that the Sorcerer:
gets Metamagics which are amazing
can actually change what spells they know past level 5 spells if they need to based on the campaign or upcoming plot changes ect.
can also actually overcast using slots for their level 6 through 9 spells which the warlock can not do at all.
can learn more than one spell per level for level 6 through 9 spells.

The Warlock is a horrible mechanic design that has to be coddled by the GM just to be able to get close to breaking even with the other arcane casters.
What if your GM does not care for short rests much, and has a fight about once or twice an adventuring day and then just does a long rest?

The warlock is borderline unplayable.
They are amazing fluff, with some unique gimmick abilities, but you will never pull your weight in a group.

If Sorcerers and Wizards did not have a way to also get spells back, and sorcerers do it even better and faster than the ability the entire Warlock is built around, it would not be so bad.

The Wizard can also get back a 5th level spell slot after a short rest once a day at level 10, or he can break it up into smaller increments, and still has 13 more spells than the warlock can cast.

13 more assuming there is only a single encounter in that day. 7 more, all at a lower levels over the course of the day which is 7 more encounters. So per encounter you get to cast +1 spell. however all of your spells are at a lower level now. and will keep dwindling until youre basically an insect at the end of the day. all the while the warlock is still going strong.

Lets break down the sorc vs lock here:
Right so your example gets a whopping 7 5th level slots per day by burning out everything. with 6 sorc points left over. so over the course of an entire day 2 maybe 3 metamagics.

the 10th level warlock gets 6 5th slots in a day.

A whole 1 spell. singular. uno. and with less hit points.and way fewer other features.

So warlock loses a single spell slot over the day but all gets his pact features and invocations. while youre using one of your class features trying to pretend to be a warlock and tagging on 2 metamagics.

Spells known: Both warlock and sorc have identical spells known numbers. Here it is a tie. at base they are as versatile as each other in terms of base spells known.

then you get invocations:
A lot of pact features make level 1 spells AT WILL. Disguise self all day erry'day, silent image all the time, talk to animals like the glorious disney princess you are check, float around because you can check. Detect all the magic all the time. Along with a tonne of other groovy abilities. Technically infinite level 1 slots and extra spells known above what the sorc has. you cant choose all of these obviously but even just 1 is a lot more than the sorc has.

Sorc gets metamagic. which is sweet. Definitely the core feature to the class. and the thing that earns them the most brownie points.

Lock then gets pact features. oh pact of tome you say, 3 extra cantrips from any class, well thats already sent the warlocks versatility far ahead of the sorcs from a not spending resources standpoint. but wait theres more, you can inscribe ANY ritual you find from any class into the tome with an invocation. well now the sorc is just looking a little silly.

sorc then gets wild magic, meh to DM heavy for me, or draconic which i do very much like. the extra hp puts you to equal to that of the warlock (yay youve managed to tie again). And adding your cha damage to certain spells is nice, i mean its not adding your cha x4 each time you cast Eblast at level 20. but it does stop you falling quite so far behind in damage over the course of the day. I would in fact call this one a tie.

And now we have warlock patrons which are each pretty awesome really, temp hp pushing your ability to survive above the sorc, or a reaction teleport when youre hit which leaves you invisible. not grounbreaking but good enough. (except hurl through hell, that is just obscenely amazing).

Downtime activities.
8 hours for sleeping - 1 hour doing stuff with spells. 1 hour resting. repeat for 16 hours.

So out of combat the warlock has a LOT more spells at 10th level to play about with in a day that he controls the pace of. at 10th level like 32 vs your 15 (20 if you burnt all your sorc points for level 1 spells).

and if an ambush happens at hour 16 he has far better damage than you thanks to eblast.

So basically you get as a sorc over a warlock: metamagic. +1 max level spell slot. thats pretty much it... i mean you can nova hella hard, but situations where you can blow everything in a single encounter should be incredibly rare.

As a warlock over a sorc: tonnes of extra spells to choose from, more survivable, more out of combat utility, almost equal in combat utility (one less 5th level spell, or a lot less low level spells but a cantrip that laughs and makes up for it) conversely for every nova situation the opposite where you can rest up a lot during a day should exist.

The Warlock is a horrible mechanic design that has to be coddled by the GM just to be able to get close to breaking even with the other arcane casters.
What if your GM does not care for short rests much, and has a fight about once or twice an adventuring day and then just does a long rest?

No as explained following the base rules for short rests the warlock is only very slightly behind a full caster. if your gm runs games like that then all full casters are inherently broken as they are balanced around 8 encounters per day. If you have less than those 8 then you are making full casters more powerful. if you have more short rests than the two warlocks overtake the full caster.

The warlock is nowhere near borderline unplayable.

Now wizards are a different kettle as are clerics as their spell choice varies wildly.
warlocks are not versatile caster monkeys. they are however a better version of the sorc.

But by your argument every single class in the game thats not a full caster with a huge spells known list is unplayable and will never pull their weight? at least thats what its sounding like. because warlock will match DPS and beat DPS of a lot of classes. Has some out of combat utility too. In a non combat social situation can burn spells and then rest for an hour to refresh. Im just really not seeing your point about them being unplayable at all.

wunderkid

2016-05-10, 06:41 PM

1. We're talking a fight against a BM, you forgot to factor in the Maneuver die + GWF into your damage calculation if he isn't using them for Precision. With damage modifier, average damage would be somewhere in the realm of:

1d10 (PAM = ~6 with GWM) + 15 + 4.5. So very rough average damage of ~25.5, resisted down to 12.

Except...

Presuming you did slashing, the butt end of the PAM is Bludgeoning, thus bypasses the resistance. Soooo, 1d4 (~3 with GWM) + 15 + 4.5. So that damage would be ~22.5, not resisted. Aka in 2 hits (1st main Attack, Bonus Action Butt End) your AoA is toast. So 50 damage to the Fighter, and more damage to the Warlock.

FYI, my generic level 20 BM would be PAM (V Human), GWM (4), Sentinel (6), Res (Wis)(8), +4 Str (12/14), +2 Con (16), Toughness (18)

If he hadn't found a magic weapon by 12, I would have taken Magic Initiate (Druid) for Guidance, Shillelagh, Absorb Elements). Guidance for Initiative Rolls and Shillelagh because it pairs with PAM (sadly not GWM) and Sentinel.

The maneuvre dice in the persons example he claimed was all being used for precision (which iirc adds nothing to damage) to ensure hits over the course of the fight.

Admitedly the resistance one was someone elses call i just ran with it, if i had the ability to set up before hand id rather have armor on ready, spam blade ward, once the armor pops and you use action surge, use misty escape to counter it. (well some of it), its the only situation id say blade ward was any good as a spell haha. Again its still going to lose, id forgotten PAM and hadnt seen anyone mention it so youre right i did not factor in bludgeoning damage. if they were going the fiendish route then it would massively hamstring them.

As i said my claims were made when my sleep deprived brain was telling me the lock could armor of aga for 35, which still would be pretty solid even vs the PAM, it was also something I hadnt considered at the time though and would chew through the armor.

i think magic items are too much of a wild card. which is why they are being left out of this. its not that they havent been found but simply there are a LOT more variables when you start throwing magical items into the mix.

krugaan

2016-05-10, 06:46 PM

The maneuvre dice in the persons example he claimed was all being used for precision (which iirc adds nothing to damage) to ensure hits over the course of the fight.

Admitedly the resistance one was someone elses call i just ran with it, if i had the ability to set up before hand id rather have armor on ready, spam blade ward, once the armor pops and you use action surge, use misty escape to counter it. (well some of it), its the only situation id say blade ward was any good as a spell haha. Again its still going to lose, id forgotten PAM and hadnt seen anyone mention it so youre right i did not factor in bludgeoning damage. if they were going the fiendish route then it would massively hamstring them.

As i said my claims were made when my sleep deprived brain was telling me the lock could armor of aga for 35, which still would be pretty solid even vs the PAM, it was also something I hadnt considered at the time though and would chew through the armor.

i think magic items are too much of a wild card. which is why they are being left out of this. its not that they havent been found but simply there are a LOT more variables when you start throwing magical items into the mix.

I think the point here is that, even heavily stacking the odds in favor of the warlock with whatever conditions you like ... he has a snowflakes chance in hell of winning any fight against a fighter 20.

DeAnno

2016-05-10, 06:54 PM

i think magic items are too much of a wild card. which is why they are being left out of this. its not that they havent been found but simply there are a LOT more variables when you start throwing magical items into the mix.

When one class naturally has magic and the other doesn't choosing the leave magic items out entirely rather than make certain controlled assumptions strikes me as unwise. In this circumstance it's unlikely to change things, but if you did a similar experiment of Fighter 10 vs Warlock 10 it would get you a biased result.

Naanomi

2016-05-10, 06:56 PM

More to the point, why are their no magic items?
If there are no magic items, what did the fighter at level 20 spend his mountains of gold on for the last few years?
http://www.pvponline.com/images/blog/anh.png

Although I agree with keeping items out of it, too much table variability there to really factor them in meaningfully unless perhaps going on wealth/starting level in the DMG (which isn't a stellar judge either, but at least is impartial-ish)

DM: are you proficient in anti-matter?

MUNCHKIN: ... no.

DM: no proficiency bonus to hit. Or damage.
And *that* is why Wizards should be taking the Tavern Brawler feat!

krugaan

2016-05-10, 07:08 PM

And *that* is why Wizards should be taking the Tavern Brawler feat!

For serus!

Wizard: My familiar flies above the knight, then I cast polymorph into killer whale! WHALE BOMB, MY FAMILIAR!

DM: (tired sigh) roll an attack.

/wizard rolls a 14

DM: ... miss.

Wizard: I have tavern brawler!

DM: fine, hit. 1d4 dam...

Wizard: TAVERN BRAWLER!

DM: (groan) 1d4 + 2 damage.

Wizard: a 4! Six, SIX DAMAGE! ITS SUPER EFFECTIVE!

DM: I'm so glad you're unlikely to reproduce.

EDIT: I am *so* going to make a chain warlock that does this at least once every day.

wunderkid

2016-05-10, 07:15 PM

I think the point here is that, even heavily stacking the odds in favor of the warlock with whatever conditions you like ... he has a snowflakes chance in hell of winning any fight against a fighter 20.

Oh heavy stacking you could definitely win. Heavily stacked would be removing all weapons from the fighter in an empty room with a time limit. and suddenly that Armor of aga is soaking 9/10 attacks. (1+str/2 unarmed + resistance)

Now that would be heavily stacked xD I tried to stack it as unheavily as possible by simply getting rid of range. For a class that fights just as well up close as it does at a range. That's not a lot of stacking at all and the warlock doesn't to 'terribly' it doesn't win but it probably comes closer than a lot of others.

krugaan

2016-05-10, 07:16 PM

hmmm, hows that for a different tactic then?

Warlock hides in darkness while sending his polymorphed familiar in to attack the fighter?

I mean, it'll still be a massive crapshoot, but it's an idea.

TheTeaMustFlow

2016-05-10, 07:30 PM

Really, if I were the warlock I'd just dig a really big pit, put spikes and such in it, cover it with Hallucinatory Terrain, then try and bait the fighter into it somehow (possibly 'running' over the 'field' using Fly). It's definitely cheating, but anyone who tries to take on someone ten levels above them is getting a Darwin Award anyway.

Giant2005

2016-05-10, 07:33 PM

As i said my claims were made when my sleep deprived brain was telling me the lock could armor of aga for 35, which still would be pretty solid even vs the PAM, it was also something I hadnt considered at the time though and would chew through the armor.

It wouldn't be enough to make a difference on its own, but it might make a considerable difference.
I wonder how a Variant Human that took no ASIs would fare? Take Medium Armor, Heavy Armor and then Heavy Armor Master.
It would make Armor of Agathys a touch more effective, but more importantly it would add a significant mount to the Warlock's survivability by running around with 20 AC, more damage reduction, and Darkness/Devil's Sight.
The increased survival rate of the Warlock might help him last long enough to inflict a little more damage before the Fighter stomps his face.

Sigreid

2016-05-10, 07:38 PM

So how come when the darkness comes up it's always ignored that the fighter's bow can easily be a line effect through the darkness until/unless it hits something? That's fire, side step, fire until you hear a scream. Same works with attacking 5'squares in the darkness. You can cut down on the warlock's place to hide pretty quickly. Also, why is it assumed that the fighter doesn't carry caltrops, or oil or alchemists fire or some such? These are area denial weapons that should be in any tank's bag of tricks.

MaxWilson

2016-05-10, 07:43 PM

hmmm, hows that for a different tactic then?

Warlock hides in darkness while sending his polymorphed familiar in to attack the fighter?

I mean, it'll still be a massive crapshoot, but it's an idea.

What can you Polymorph an Imp or Sprite into that makes it worth the spell? Remember you're still limited by its CR.

So how come when the darkness comes up it's always ignored that the fighter's bow can easily be a line effect through the darkness until/unless it hits something? That's fire, side step, fire until you hear a scream. Same works with attacking 5'squares in the darkness. You can cut down on the warlock's place to hide pretty quickly. Also, why is it assumed that the fighter doesn't carry caltrops, or oil or alchemists fire or some such? These are area denial weapons that should be in any tank's bag of tricks.

I think it's because posters are taking pity on the warlock. Everyone knows the warlock is helplessly outclassed, so now the topic is "how far do you have to stack the deck in favor of the warlock to give him a 10% chance of victory." Denying the fighter any and all equipment other than a melee weapon and his armor seems to be part of that deck-stacking; and so far the warlock looks like he still loses.

krugaan

2016-05-10, 07:59 PM

What can you Polymorph an Imp or Sprite into that makes it worth the spell? Remember you're still limited by its CR.

Ah, shoot, I forgot about that. Nothing, I think. It would probably be better to stay as it is.

I think it's because posters are taking pity on the warlock. Everyone knows the warlock is helplessly outclassed, so now the topic is "how far do you have to stack the deck in favor of the warlock to give him a 10% chance of victory." Denying the fighter any and all equipment other than a melee weapon and his armor seems to be part of that deck-stacking; and so far the warlock looks like he still loses.

Essentially. Could a Fighter 20 beat a warlock without *any* equipment?

JoeJ

2016-05-10, 08:13 PM

Ah, shoot, I forgot about that. Nothing, I think. It would probably be better to stay as it is.

Essentially. Could a Fighter 20 beat a warlock without *any* equipment?

Probably not. The warlock would get so distracted by the sexy, well muscled body of the naked fighter that they'd forget why they were fighting.

krugaan

2016-05-10, 08:17 PM

Probably not. The warlock would get so distracted by the sexy, well muscled body of the naked fighter that they'd forget why they were fighting.

Nah, I think barbarian has that whole "nipple hypnosis" thing covered.

EvanescentHero

2016-05-10, 08:24 PM

Nah, I think barbarian has that whole "nipple hypnosis" thing covered.

You mean "nipnosis"?

Specter

2016-05-10, 08:32 PM

For serus!

Wizard: My familiar flies above the knight, then I cast polymorph into killer whale! WHALE BOMB, MY FAMILIAR!

DM: (tired sigh) roll an attack.

/wizard rolls a 14

DM: ... miss.

Wizard: I have tavern brawler!

DM: fine, hit. 1d4 dam...

Wizard: TAVERN BRAWLER!

DM: (groan) 1d4 + 2 damage.

Wizard: a 4! Six, SIX DAMAGE! ITS SUPER EFFECTIVE!

DM: I'm so glad you're unlikely to reproduce.

EDIT: I am *so* going to make a chain warlock that does this at least once every day.

A friend of mine actually saved us from an alley ambush by summoning a shark on top of the assailants. Good times.

krugaan

2016-05-10, 08:34 PM

You mean "nipnosis"?

I see what you did there, sir. And I applaud.

A friend of mine actually saved us from an alley ambush by summoning a shark on top of the assailants. Good times.

Hahah, that's brilliant.

Party: Oh no, we're trapped!

Hero: We'll be saved by the ... SHARKNADO(tm)!

Naanomi

2016-05-10, 09:30 PM

Ninosis? Seems like a warlock trick (20 Charisma Vs 8?)

In fact, if I was a warlock really trying to beat a 20 fighter, my first move would be a Persuasion/Deception check to end the fight and bide my time (no fighters listed took Insight); and a familiar (to Help) or Tome (for Guidance) only tip it further in the Lok's favor

RulesJD

2016-05-10, 09:34 PM

Ah, shoot, I forgot about that. Nothing, I think. It would probably be better to stay as it is.

Essentially. Could a Fighter 20 beat a warlock without *any* equipment?

Yes.

EK = Weapon Bond. Bonus Action, weapon right back in the hand. Proceed to destroy the Warlock.

jas61292

2016-05-10, 10:07 PM

Essentially. Could a Fighter 20 beat a warlock without *any* equipment?

Honestly? Probably. I'd bet on him. Especially if he used a feat on tavern brawler. Litterally can grab anything and have a weapon, and has the versitility to get around resistances a fiend warlock might have. Sure, it would be harder, but I'd still bet on the guy 10 levels higher.

And, of course, an Eldritch Knight is never without a weapon anyways. Not to mention the may have spells they could cast.

krugaan

2016-05-10, 10:17 PM

Yes.

EK = Weapon Bond. Bonus Action, weapon right back in the hand. Proceed to destroy the Warlock.

Honestly? Probably. I'd bet on him. Especially if he used a feat on tavern brawler. Litterally can grab anything and have a weapon, and has the versitility to get around resistances a fiend warlock might have. Sure, it would be harder, but I'd still bet on the guy 10 levels higher.

And, of course, an Eldritch Knight is never without a weapon anyways. Not to mention the may have spells they could cast.

Yeah ok, we know with a weapon, the EK could win. Now, how would you, as a fighter, beat the snot out of your opponent with no weapons, armor, or spells? Someone do the math on a tavern brawler build that would still be effective in a regular fight:

at least one feat spent on sharpshooter, GWM, or PAM, not that will hinder the fighter much, and one feat spent on tavern brawler.

You have one mostly empty bottle of beer, the clothes on your back, an empty coin purse, and a hangover which means you lose initiative against the warlock.

GO!

Bonus points if, at the end, you save the beer to pour on the warlocks face after you beat him senseless, somehow.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-10, 11:31 PM

Yeah ok, we know with a weapon, the EK could win. Now, how would you, as a fighter, beat the snot out of your opponent with no weapons, armor, or spells? Someone do the math on a tavern brawler build that would still be effective in a regular fight:

at least one feat spent on sharpshooter, GWM, or PAM, not that will hinder the fighter much, and one feat spent on tavern brawler.

You have one mostly empty bottle of beer, the clothes on your back, an empty coin purse, and a hangover which means you lose initiative against the warlock.

GO!

Bonus points if, at the end, you save the beer to pour on the warlocks face after you beat him senseless, somehow.

The problem with this kind of scenario is that there's the obvious cop-out counter of "well the Warlock could just fly/levitate out of melee range and blast away at the Fighter until he dies"; taking away the Fighter's weapons gives the Warlock an easy out, because one side can fly and use ranged attacks, while the other can do neither. At this point, we need an EB with fly and ranged cantrips, because being limited to melee against a flying blaster is a serious disadvantage.

Assuming the Warlock comes into melee (presumably some kind of Bladelock), rather than taking the easy win of flying blaster, this Fighter:

Half-Orc Champion 20
Level 1 Stats: 16/14/16/8/12/8
Level 20 Stats: 20/14/18/8/14/8
Saves: +11/+2/+10/-1/+8/-1
Feats/ASIs: Tavern Brawler (Con)/Grappler/Resilient (Wis)/Tough/Str +4/Con +1/Wis +1
Fighting Styles: Dueling/Mariner

AC: 13
HP: 19d10+130 (average 244)
Attack: 4 attacks, +11
Damage: 1d4+7
Crit: 19-20, 3d4+7

...will lose initiative to the Bladelock; after the Bladelock gets in their attacks (presumably including buffs from before combat started), the Fighter will begin punching. He won't attempt to Shove (even though it would help), and he wouldn't attempt to grapple (even though that's literally what he's built for), he just punches. Let's assume the Warlock has AC 18 (Armor Of Shadows, Dex 20, Shield); over the course of 20 attacks, you'll miss 6 times, hit 11 times, and crit 3 times; this gives you average Damage Per Attack of 7.4 ({[6*0]+[11*9.5]+[3*14.5]}/20). Assuming the Warlock is a Hill Dwarf with Con 20, average HP rolls, the Tough feat, and bludgeoning resistance, you have to chew through 266 HP in total (including the resistance), which means it'll take ~36 attacks for the Warlock to die. Including attacks from Action Surge, that means the Warlock needs to somehow have DPR 35 against AC 13 for 7 consecutive rounds...well, higher after you factor in Regeneration and Second Wind. Now sure, the Warlock could use Slow or Hold Person to add a few rounds onto that, or use Darkness+Devil's Sight to give disadvantage, but the Fighter can use Grappling and Shoving to tip the scales back in his favor.

Assuming the Warlock is wielding a Greatsword (yes, I know I said they're using a shield earlier, just roll with it), and assuming they somehow only miss on a nat 1, and they have advantage, and they have Hex up, they're looking at hit/crit damage of 3d6+5/6d6+5. That's an average Damage Per Attack of 11.985 ({[1*0]+[360*10.5]+[39*26]}/400), which has their DPR right around 24...nowhere near the DPR 35 they need to make the fighter use his Second Wind or Regen.

Giant2005

2016-05-10, 11:31 PM

djreynolds

2016-05-11, 01:47 AM

Build a level 20 fighter and/or a level 10 warlock. Pit them together.

Who wins?

Let's see some actual builds here. No Schrodingers.

I would think on just possibly double the HPs, the fighter would win. Also remember EB has to roll to hit, its not vs a save, full plate and a shield is 20AC. EK gets the shield spell for melee defense or versus ranged attacks. Every fighter is taking resilient wisdom.

The survivor ability is upwards of 10 free hit points a turn in regeneration if the fighter is below half hit points. I could just take the dodge action while you're trying to hit me. S&B and rapier, defensive duelist vs your pact weapon.

The warlock would be hard pressed. He would need magic initiate just for cure wounds.

wunderkid

2016-05-11, 01:54 AM

Relevant Starting Abilities: 16 Str, 14 Dex, 16 Con, 9 Wis
Race: Variant Human
Archetype: Champion
Feats/ASIs: Tavern Brawler, Resilient: Wis, Tough, +10 ability points
Fighting Styles: Dueling, ?
Relevant Skills: Athletics, Stealth
Final Abilities: 20 Str, 16 Dex, 20 Con, 10 Wis, AC 13, 264 hp

First turn: Ambush the Warlock from Stealth. Stab him with your bottle and hit him with the rock in your other hand in order to figure out which damage is more effective: piercing or bludgeoning. Drop the useless weapon and use your other two actions to knock him prone and grapple him. Use your action surge to beat him senseless with the rock.
Second turn: Beat him more senseless with the rock. Smile as you trigger your action surge to do some more.
Third turn +: Keep beating him with the rock until he is paste.

Assuming the Warlock has 16 AC, you should be inflicting 39.255 DPR against him (or 31.9 if he is using Darkness/Devil's Sight) per attack action, which means he should be long dead before turn 3.
The Warlock will be inflicting 20.275 DPR against the Fighter via EB+Hex, or 18.4 with Darkness/Devil's Sight.

The Warlock doesn't have a lot of hope.

You have one mostly empty bottle of beer, the clothes on your back, an empty coin purse, and a hangover which means you lose initiative against the warlock.

I'm not sure an Ambush really goes with the spirit of losing initiative.

But assuming a rock is added to the list of things he has access to.

Warlock gets initiative. Casts Armor.

Your options are to either a) throw your rock or bottle doing d4+5 (8) bludgeoning damage. Which would likely drop to 4 because of DR.

B) get in close and start wailing. Doing this however results in taking 100 damage if you are using slashing or 175 bludgeoning to pop the armour. The warlock recasts next turn.

we are assuming the Warlock is the one instigating against the unarmed hungover fighter here as that makes logical sense.

Now the dynamic changes a little if there is a lot of debris around. However this limits the fighter to 2 attacks per round each attack doing 4 bludgeoning damage. Meaning 3 full rounds to get past the temporary hit points of one shield. But he could mix his attack types controlling the date he took so it was not lethal.

I still think the fighter would edge out on top. But naked and hungover with just coin purse and bottle and nothing else it would be pretty tough

Giant2005

2016-05-11, 02:38 AM

djreynolds

2016-05-11, 03:00 AM

What about absorb elements, used by an eldritch knight? Or anyone with magic initiate.

JellyPooga

2016-05-11, 04:45 AM

You have one mostly empty bottle of beer, the clothes on your back, an empty coin purse, and a hangover which means you lose initiative against the warlock.

GO!

Bonus points if, at the end, you save the beer to pour on the warlocks face after you beat him senseless, somehow.

Warlock wins Initiative, casts Fly and laughs at the helpless, ground-bound Fighter.

Fighter looks around for a dead pidgeon (there's always a dead pidgeon around when your hungover and being attacked by scrawny guys with delusions of grandeur, right?), grabs a wing feather and casts Fly himself, with a world weary sigh.

EK proceeds to pound the now terrified Warlock into submission with his fists, looks down at the senseless fool lying bleeding on the ground, looks at his beer bottle, and shrugs, tosses the bottle away, robs the Warlock and goes back into the tavern to get another drink.

It's going to be one of those days again...

wunderkid

2016-05-11, 05:23 AM

The stealth was mostly just to cut out cheese like being kited by a flying enemy.
The rock or bottle inflicts 1D4+7 per round, so on average it would take 3 hits to get through Armor of Agathys, so two castings of AoA would result in 150 damage against the fighter, which leaves him 114 remaining. At 10.275 DPR (20.275 minus 10 from the fighter's regeneration), it would take the Warlock 12 rounds to get through the remaining hp.
With 16 Con (a very generous number considering I already attributed the Warlock with having 16 Dex and 20 Cha, with only 2 ASIs to work with), a level 10 Warlock has 83 hit points. At 39.255 damage per action, it will take the Fighter 3 actions to get through it, which means the Warlock would be defeated at the end of round 2.

The naked fighter secures the win with 10 rounds of leeway.

I agree I've ignored kiting cheese as much as possible. It looks good on paper, hard to pull off in character, although repelling blast and walking away would have an impact on a few rounds. Potentially a lot of rounds depending on the area you're fighting in.

I'm clearly missing something, where does 1d4+7 come from? I can see +5 from strength. Not sure where the extra +2 comes from but it is very important it's the difference between 3 and 4 attacks the difference between 150 and 200 damage so please clarify this bit.

And the warlocks hp would be 143. (50 temp hp from aga).

That's 6 actions to pop him.

With repelling blast being thrown into the mix too say potentially working for 2 rounds. You're 10 round window of safety is now only 4. If that +7 was an error then that effectively 5 rounds worth of eblasts so your window becomes 0 rounds of comfortable safety.

Of course you still have second wind and what not.

Still very likely a loss. But I still say 12 is a better level to attempt this, 10 is a pretty uneventful level. At 12 things start getting interesting. Still not even but could be closer

AvatarVecna

2016-05-11, 05:31 AM

I'm clearly missing something, where does 1d4+7 come from? I can see +5 from strength. Not sure where the extra +2 comes from but it is very important it's the difference between 3 and 4 attacks the difference between 150 and 200 damage so please clarify this bit.

Dueling Style gives +2 damage for one-handed weapons; might be just me, but I'm fairly certain one hand counts as a one-handed weapon for the purposes.

Giant2005

2016-05-11, 05:34 AM

I'm clearly missing something, where does 1d4+7 come from? I can see +5 from strength. Not sure where the extra +2 comes from but it is very important it's the difference between 3 and 4 attacks the difference between 150 and 200 damage so please clarify this bit.
Dueling.

And the warlocks hp would be 143. (50 temp hp from aga).
That is a good point - I forgot to consider the temp hp from AoA, although you accidentally added 60 hp rather than 50. The value would be 133. So it would only take 4 actions to down the Warlock (133 / 39.255 = 3.4)

wunderkid

2016-05-11, 06:04 AM

Ah yes forgot one handed style even existed I've never seen it used xD and you're right it I'd 133hp. But yeah warlock will lose at level 10, he will give it a good go, at 12 he may have a chance as he will net quite a bit from those 2 levels (64 extra hp/temp hp, an extra blast, an extra asi) but it's still highly unlikely he will win as we haven't even considered crits yet which is what the champion is good for, a half orc hungover with a bottle.

Ek just wins basically.

jas61292

2016-05-11, 08:14 AM

Warlock wins Initiative, casts Fly and laughs at the helpless, ground-bound Fighter.

TBH, this wouldn't even happen that often. Assuming Champion, which a lot if of people have been for the regeneration, the fighter would have remarkable athlete, making his absolute minimum initiative +3. And for a no armor build, even one focusing on Str, it is more likely to end up at least +5. The warlock, on the other hand, is going top be stuck at +3 at most, unless he sacrifices damage and DCs. So, while the warlock certainly could win initiative, he is slightly more likely to lose, get grappled, and get his face beaten in by a rock.

Vogonjeltz

2016-05-11, 10:39 AM

Ranged attacks don't take disadvantage unless there's a non-incapacitated enemy within 5'. A paralyzed enemy is incapacitated and doesn't count.

Oops! Sorry guys, my bad I should have known better.

re-calc:
9.75% chance of critting (from range)
84% chance of hitting (from range)
6.25% chance of missing (from range)

93.75% chance of critting (from 5ft)
6.25% chance of missing (from 5ft)

from beyond 5ft: (2d10+10 x .84) + (4d10+10 x .0975) = 20.76
from 5ft: .9375 x 4d10+10 = 30

So from 5 ft it would take an average of 6 rounds of paralyzed eldritch blasts to kill the Fighter. Unfortunately for the Warlock, none of this matters, as previously determined, in even the worst case scenario the Fighter is most likely not paralyzed for even a single round of attacks.

Now more interestingly I'd like to know how much better a 12th level warlock would do. Would the extra asi, eb and 2 spell slots sway it in the locks favour?

No. The warlock simply can't compete with the Fighter's offense or defense, their saving throw spells have next to no chance of landing or sticking long enough to have any effect at all. Casting armor of agathys costs an action that the Warlock doesn't have to spare. They are dead in 3 turns, AoA only prevents 25 damage as a 5th level casting.

wunderkid

2016-05-11, 02:05 PM

No. The warlock simply can't compete with the Fighter's offense or defense, their saving throw spells have next to no chance of landing or sticking long enough to have any effect at all. Casting armor of agathys costs an action that the Warlock doesn't have to spare. They are dead in 3 turns, AoA only prevents 25 damage as a 5th level casting.

You're right it prevents 25. But each casting reflects 75 on average. So 12th level with 3 slots. Is 225 reflection. Even if each only soaked two attacks it's still 150 damage across 3 rounds which is far more than EB could pull off. Plus it has mitigated 75 damage you would have taken.

I'd say you could spare an action for those numbers.

Of course as mentioned it does need you to have pilfered his ranged weapons. Or to bait him into honorable combat with no ranged weaponry. And still doesn't mean you're going to win. But it's probably the best chance you have as hold person obviously won't work. And eblasts won't do enough either.

Gwendol

2016-05-11, 02:15 PM

Somehow, the idea that the warlock may stay a greater chance of winning if locked in close combat with a fighter seems like an even worse situation than a ranged fight.

MaxWilson

2016-05-11, 03:15 PM

Somehow, the idea that the warlock may stay a greater chance of winning if locked in close combat with a fighter seems like an even worse situation than a ranged fight.

I thought we'd reached the point of concluding that he's going to be locked in unarmed combat with the fighter? If you can get the fighter to agree to leave his armor behind and never cast any spells at all, you might have a winning combination. If that doesn't work, see if you can get him to agree to fight underwater too, then just use your Book of Ancient Shadows to cast Water Breathing and you're golden.

georgie_leech

2016-05-11, 03:45 PM

I thought we'd reached the point of concluding that he's going to be locked in unarmed combat with the fighter? If you can get the fighter to agree to leave his armor behind and never cast any spells at all, you might have a winning combination. If that doesn't work, see if you can get him to agree to fight underwater too, then just use your Book of Ancient Shadows to cast Water Breathing and you're golden.

So, the current list of stuff to get the Warlock 10 an easy win is no weapons for the Fighter, no armor for the Fighter, the Fighter loses initiative (with an implied lack of surprise for the Fighter), underwater?

wunderkid

2016-05-11, 03:48 PM

RulesJD

2016-05-11, 03:49 PM

SpawnOfMorbo

2016-05-11, 03:50 PM

It really shows the balance of the Fighter Class when people need to compare it at level 20 to other classes that are at lower levels.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-11, 03:54 PM

So, the current list of stuff to get the Warlock 10 an easy win is no weapons for the Fighter, no armor for the Fighter, the Fighter loses initiative (with an implied lack of surprise for the Fighter), underwater?

Actually, being underwater doesn't really help a ton; several of the presented fighter builds assumed they had disadvantage on attacks anyway, had fantastic Athletics checks, and had at least Con 18; that gives them a good 5 minutes of holding their breath in combat, which (based on evidence in this thread) is at least twice as much time as they need to kill the Warlock.

Giant2005

2016-05-11, 03:59 PM

Gwendol

2016-05-11, 04:02 PM

It really shows the balance of the Fighter Class when people need to compare it at level 20 to other classes that are at lower levels.

I don't think it's a comparison worth making though. The fighter stays relevant through the game.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-11, 04:11 PM

I think the point was the third casting would take an action the Warlock doesn't have. If he is dead in two rounds, then there is no third round to cast a third AoA.

It's also worth mentioning that the Warlock has only two slots with which to cast the spell, so even if they were still alive by the third round, they couldn't recast it.

jas61292

2016-05-11, 04:13 PM

It really shows the balance of the Fighter Class when people need to compare it at level 20 to other classes that are at lower levels.

Except that the comparisons have all turned into a joke about how much you have to gimp the fighter to make it so that... they still win.

RulesJD

2016-05-11, 04:18 PM

I don't think it's a comparison worth making though. The fighter stays relevant through the game.

Eeeeeeeeeeeh.

Honestly there are level 10 builds that could take out a level 20 Fighter without much trouble, even an EK. The Warlock is hamstringed by its relatively crappy spell selection. A level 10 Wizard wouldn't have much trouble destroying a level 20 Fighter without nearly the same amount of restrictions.

jas61292

2016-05-11, 04:22 PM

AvatarVecna

2016-05-11, 04:31 PM

It would still require a lot of restrictions. A Fighter would just have far too good stats and too much HP to be taken out by anyone that low a level. I mean, people are stacking things in the warlocks favor as much as they can, and it still gets destroyed. If the fighter is actually given fair treatment, no class is going to even come close at level 10.

It would be a very different case if we were talking about a focused combat mage, I must admit. An evoker wouldn't stand a chance, to be sure, but a necromancer? If we're assuming that the 10th level Necromancer has their undead army, we're looking at a maximum of 19 undead servitors, each with 10 extra HP and +4 to damage; I can't say for sure it would guarantee the Wizard a win, but that kind of advantage in the action economy is definitely a point in the wizard's favor that makes it an actual question. The Warlock is mostly losing because the Fighter gets sooooo many more attacks than the Warlock; surrounding the fighter with undead either gives the wizard a few extra turns to attack with their spell or gives them several extra attacks in the form of undead body slams.

Kane0

2016-05-11, 04:32 PM

Cast banishment and run away?

Indomitable is still a problem, but at least its not a Wis save which he's likely proficient in with all his bonus ASIs

MaxWilson

2016-05-11, 04:34 PM

Eeeeeeeeeeeh.

Honestly there are level 10 builds that could take out a level 20 Fighter without much trouble, even an EK. The Warlock is hamstringed by its relatively crappy spell selection. A level 10 Wizard wouldn't have much trouble destroying a level 20 Fighter without nearly the same amount of restrictions.

Did the thread topic just shift? :)

I can think of some ways that might have a 50% chance of success (at most) against a 20th level fighter with no restrictions. I can't think of anything a 10th level wizard could do that would let him "destroy... without much trouble" a 20th level fighter, unless you're counting something like "cast ten Glyphs of Warding in a row (all of them summoning Air/Earth/Fire elementals)" and then trick the fighter into walking into the glyphs.

Even that approach could fail, but the point is that it's a cheesy scenario which in my view doesn't count.

It would be a very different case if we were talking about a focused combat mage, I must admit. An evoker wouldn't stand a chance, to be sure, but a necromancer? If we're assuming that the 10th level Necromancer has their undead army, we're looking at a maximum of 19 undead servitors, each with 10 extra HP and +4 to damage; I can't say for sure it would guarantee the Wizard a win, but that kind of advantage in the action economy is definitely a point in the wizard's favor that makes it an actual question. The Warlock is mostly losing because the Fighter gets sooooo many more attacks than the Warlock; surrounding the fighter with undead either gives the wizard a few extra turns to attack with their spell or gives them several extra attacks in the form of undead body slams.

I would bet on the fighter in that fight. (I assume he's an Eldritch Knight similar to Degalus, whom I rolled up in post #42 of this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20757130&postcount=42). I take no responsibility for Fighters created by other people.)

jas61292

2016-05-11, 04:39 PM

It would be a very different case if we were talking about a focused combat mage, I must admit. An evoker wouldn't stand a chance, to be sure, but a necromancer? If we're assuming that the 10th level Necromancer has their undead army, we're looking at a maximum of 19 undead servitors, each with 10 extra HP and +4 to damage; I can't say for sure it would guarantee the Wizard a win, but that kind of advantage in the action economy is definitely a point in the wizard's favor that makes it an actual question. The Warlock is mostly losing because the Fighter gets sooooo many more attacks than the Warlock; surrounding the fighter with undead either gives the wizard a few extra turns to attack with their spell or gives them several extra attacks in the form of undead body slams.

It definitely would depend on how you define the rules. I mean, arguably, you could say having an undead army is similar to pre-buffing, and would therefore be giving one side an advantage that the other is not afforded. If the wizard was forced to raise the undead during combat, things are not going to go well for him. And that's not even mentioning that even doing that is arguably stacking things in his favor by conveniently providing the necessary corpses on the battlefield.

There are a lot of other factors in play too, but I feel like unless you are giving some sort of time or resource advantage to the wizard, its not even going to be close.

Gwendol

2016-05-11, 04:40 PM

AvatarVecna

2016-05-11, 04:46 PM

[COLOR="#0000FF"]I would bet on the fighter in that fight. (I assume he's an Eldritch Knight similar to Degalus, whom I rolled up in post #42 of this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20757130&postcount=42). I take no responsibility for Fighters created by other people.)

Don't get me wrong, so would I. But it actually becomes a slight question rather than a guarantee: with the Warlock builds, I ran numbers to show how screwed they were even with the Fighter completel hamstrung; with this minionmancy tactic, I'd run the numbers to make sure I knew for sure who would win.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-11, 04:50 PM

It definitely would depend on how you define the rules. I mean, arguably, you could say having an undead army is similar to pre-buffing, and would therefore be giving one side an advantage that the other is not afforded. If the wizard was forced to raise the undead during combat, things are not going to go well for him. And that's not even mentioning that even doing that is arguably stacking things in his favor by conveniently providing the necessary corpses on the battlefield.

There are a lot of other factors in play too, but I feel like unless you are giving some sort of time or resource advantage to the wizard, its not even going to be close.

It's similar to pre-buffing, but part of why pre-buffing was allowed at all was that it was reasonable; it's reasonable for the Warlock to have their Armor of Shadows already active because it lasts so long, for instance. For similar reasons, it's not a huge stretch of the imagination to come up with a reason why a necromancer who's had access to Animate Dead for at least 4 levels would have undead servitors with them at the start of the fight. The full 19 is unreasonable, but maybe 10? That's more reasonable, and doesn't cost all their slots to maintain.

But yeah, a Wizard with no prep-time, whether that includes long-term pre-buffing or animating the dead, is going to get their ass kicked.

jas61292

2016-05-11, 04:56 PM

It's similar to pre-buffing, but part of why pre-buffing was allowed at all was that it was reasonable; it's reasonable for the Warlock to have their Armor of Shadows already active because it lasts so long, for instance. For similar reasons, it's not a huge stretch of the imagination to come up with a reason why a necromancer who's had access to Animate Dead for at least 4 levels would have undead servitors with them at the start of the fight. The full 19 is unreasonable, but maybe 10? That's more reasonable, and doesn't cost all their slots to maintain.

But yeah, a Wizard with no prep-time, whether that includes long-term pre-buffing or animating the dead, is going to get their ass kicked.

Yeah, I can agree with that. I mean, long term buffs like Mage Armor that don't require anything specific to activate would obviously be up already. And having some undead would certainly be reasonable for a Necromancer. I'm just saying a lot depends on what rules you want to use, and what is considered reasonable. I mean, while having some undead around at all times can make sense, using up the majority of your slots every single day on it, might not be. I'd certainly agree that wizards would have a better shot than a warlock. But I still don't think its much of a shot at all.

RulesJD

2016-05-11, 05:10 PM

Did the thread topic just shift? :)

I can think of some ways that might have a 50% chance of success (at most) against a 20th level fighter with no restrictions. I can't think of anything a 10th level wizard could do that would let him "destroy... without much trouble" a 20th level fighter, unless you're counting something like "cast ten Glyphs of Warding in a row (all of them summoning Air/Earth/Fire elementals)" and then trick the fighter into walking into the glyphs.

Even that approach could fail, but the point is that it's a cheesy scenario which in my view doesn't count.

*snip*

Let me introduce you all to the Wall of Force spell. Also know as the "Neener neener I win" button for Wizards with access to level 5+ spells.

Wall of Force in half-dome over the Fighter. If it's an EK, make it a complete sphere.

EK

If it tries to Counterspell, just Counter-counterspell. You can't Dispel a Wall of Force, can't teleport through it. Use time to cast Blink, Mirror Image, etc. for buffs and Greater Invisibility as the last one (breaks concentration). Drop bombs from distance (Blink/Mirror Image getting you through several rounds). If Great Invis gets broken, I would go for Animate Objects for doing damage to an EK, as moving out of their range provokes AoO, unless they use Misty Step which you can Counterspell (and they can't Counter-counterspell because they've used their Bonus Action to cast a spell, tada).

If it is a BM or Champion, just lol. Half-dome hovering 1/2 inch off the ground. Blink/Mirror Image for giggles. Drop non-concentration based cantrips their way until they die, you've got 100 rounds. If they somehow survive, just do it again. If the Champion is out-regenerating, drop in some Fireballs, Cones of Cold.

Alternatively:

1. Animate Objects + Blink is hilarious.

2. Phantasmal Force = good luck as an non-EK on that -1 not-proficient Int save (no one takes Resiliency (Int)).

3. Polymorph into a Giant Ape. Human Variant for Resiliency (Con) + Giant Ape con mod = likely to make most concentration saves. Work through all the Fighter's resources before popping out against a heavily damaged Fighter while you are down....one 4th level spell slot.

4. I haven't even mentioned which School of Wizard I would go with yet.

Evocation would probably be the easiest because of Int-mod to damage + Magic Missile hitting for 7d4+42 (~60) out of a 5th level slot against your Wall of Forced butt. 2-3 (lower level slots obviously) will burn through even a Champs resistance once brought down to 1/2 health.

Divination would of course be laughable depending on Portent rolls. Suggestion + auto-fail roll = I'm just a lowly weakling, take off all your gear and beat me with just your hands.

jas61292

2016-05-11, 05:27 PM

If it tries to Counterspell, just Counter-counterspell. You can't Dispel a Wall of Force, can't teleport through it. Use time to cast Blink, Mirror Image, etc. for buffs and Greater Invisibility as the last one (breaks concentration). Drop bombs from distance (Blink/Mirror Image getting you through several rounds). If Great Invis gets broken, I would go for Animate Objects for doing damage to an EK, as moving out of their range provokes AoO, unless they use Misty Step which you can Counterspell (and they can't Counter-counterspell because they've used their Bonus Action to cast a spell, tada).

Uh... says who? Ethereal travel is called out as not working, but nothing in teleportation spells says anything about the ethereal plane. An eldritch knight would laugh at that attempt to stop him (and if you counterspell his counterspell of it, you can't counterspell his misty step. EDIT: and nor could you use it to cast Shield to protect you sorry ass as he action surges all over you). The Champion or Battlemaster, maybe not so much. Though, you can bet they will be using their great athletics to dig their way out (battlefield permitting).

DeAnno

2016-05-11, 05:36 PM

can't teleport through it

Can you explain where in the Wall of Force spell it says you can't teleport through it? Forcecube is a similar effect that specifically calls out a required Charisma save, Wall of Force makes no such mention.

If it is a BM or Champion, just lol. Half-dome hovering 1/2 inch off the ground. Blink/Mirror Image for giggles. Drop non-concentration based cantrips their way until they die, you've got 100 rounds. If they somehow survive, just do it again. If the Champion is out-regenerating, drop in some Fireballs, Cones of Cold.

If the dome is high enough off the ground for you to shoot cantrips through, it is high enough off the ground for the Fighter to shoot his crossbow out of at you. Blink is pretty easily defeated by readied attack actions, and Mirror Image is going to tend to get torn down fairly quickly due to the mirrors having garbage AC without the Shield spam you're likely going to do.

2. Phantasmal Force = good luck as an non-EK on that -1 not-proficient Int save (no one takes Resiliency (Int)).

3. Polymorph into a Giant Ape. Human Variant for Resiliency (Con) + Giant Ape con mod = likely to make most concentration saves. Work through all the Fighter's resources before popping out against a heavily damaged Fighter while you are down....one 4th level spell slot.

Yeah, Battlemaster and Champion aren't great for 1v1s against casters. An EK or a Monster Hunter is going to be more problematic though, since both are better at Int saves. Monster Hunters are quite good at disrupting concentration (damage die + 5 stat + 10 for GWF/SS + 2d12 superiority dice and applying disadvantage on the Conc save). EKs could just dispel your polymorph, and then Action Surge to explode your face.

Divination would of course be laughable depending on Portent rolls. Suggestion + auto-fail roll = I'm just a lowly weakling, take off all your gear and beat me with just your hands.

Do you even know how Fighter class features work? You apply your portent roll and then the fighter uses Indomitable to ignore it, wasting your Portent and rerolling his save. Not to mention that's the sort of Suggestion that should probably fail if you've already trapped him in a Wall of Force.

For the record, I think that Wizard 10 properly set up and winning initiative (or just having time to prebuff sufficiently) is probably going to win this, but you're making a lot of stupid assumptions that would quite literally get your wizard killed in a real situation.

MaxWilson

2016-05-11, 06:00 PM

Yeah, I can agree with that. I mean, long term buffs like Mage Armor that don't require anything specific to activate would obviously be up already.

That's not so obvious really. How many wizards really dedicate 3 spell slots per day to keeping Mage Armor up and running constantly? It's kind of similar to how certain people talk about Foresight giving advantage on everything, "all the time", but since it only lasts for eight hours, it's really only up 1/3 of the time.

One of the great weaknesses, and strengths, of a wizard is that the wizard is all about preparation. Give him time to prepare and he can take on anything. (For small values of "anything" that is.) But the fighter is ready for everything, all the time. Even if you catch him naked in the shower, he can summon his rapier with his bonus action, cast Mage Armor, and Action Surge a full round of attacks against you. (I wanted to write "summon his longbow" but then realized that it doesn't come with ammunition. So yeah, there's noticeable degradation in his capabilities when he's in the shower, but he can still kill your face off.)

And that is why D&D fighters and wizards have always needed each other. One is bursty-but-limited, the other is consistent-all-the-time. Put them together and you have a bag full of pure win. 5E changes this dynamic a little (cantrip attacks, and fighters now have burst capabilities too) but at a fundamental level it still continues to be the case.

jas61292

2016-05-11, 08:17 PM

That's not so obvious really. How many wizards really dedicate 3 spell slots per day to keeping Mage Armor up and running constantly? It's kind of similar to how certain people talk about Foresight giving advantage on everything, "all the time", but since it only lasts for eight hours, it's really only up 1/3 of the time.

One of the great weaknesses, and strengths, of a wizard is that the wizard is all about preparation. Give him time to prepare and he can take on anything. (For small values of "anything" that is.) But the fighter is ready for everything, all the time. Even if you catch him naked in the shower, he can summon his rapier with his bonus action, cast Mage Armor, and Action Surge a full round of attacks against you. (I wanted to write "summon his longbow" but then realized that it doesn't come with ammunition. So yeah, there's noticeable degradation in his capabilities when he's in the shower, but he can still kill your face off.)

And that is why D&D fighters and wizards have always needed each other. One is bursty-but-limited, the other is consistent-all-the-time. Put them together and you have a bag full of pure win. 5E changes this dynamic a little (cantrip attacks, and fighters now have burst capabilities too) but at a fundamental level it still continues to be the case.

Fair enough. I was just giving them the benefit of the doubt. I'm normally very against letting the casters having theoretical preparation, but I thought a mage armor was harmless enough. That said, you make a fine point. Unless you dedicate 3 slots a day to it, there is a decent chance you won't have it up. Would it be reasonable to do so? No. But is it a guarantee? Absolutely not.

But yeah, quicker preparedness is an advantage of a fighter. A fighter without a weapon can at least use something improvised or a fist and still be at least ok. And an EK is never without a weapon. On the other hand, a caster without their focus/pouch is a lot more limited. Not completely so, but while I fighter is just doing what he does a bit worse, the caster is completely cut off from some of their abilities.

MaxWilson

2016-05-11, 10:58 PM

Fair enough. I was just giving them the benefit of the doubt. I'm normally very against letting the casters having theoretical preparation, but I thought a mage armor was harmless enough. That said, you make a fine point. Unless you dedicate 3 slots a day to it, there is a decent chance you won't have it up. Would it be reasonable to do so? No. But is it a guarantee? Absolutely not.

But yeah, quicker preparedness is an advantage of a fighter. A fighter without a weapon can at least use something improvised or a fist and still be at least ok. And an EK is never without a weapon. On the other hand, a caster without their focus/pouch is a lot more limited. Not completely so, but while I fighter is just doing what he does a bit worse, the caster is completely cut off from some of their abilities.

Well, the fighter is cut off too from some abilities, because as noted, Weapon Bond won't give you ammunition.

NewDM

2016-05-11, 11:33 PM

Warlock wins Initiative, casts Fly and laughs at the helpless, ground-bound Fighter.

Fighter looks around for a dead pidgeon (there's always a dead pidgeon around when your hungover and being attacked by scrawny guys with delusions of grandeur, right?), grabs a wing feather and casts Fly himself, with a world weary sigh.

EK proceeds to pound the now terrified Warlock into submission with his fists, looks down at the senseless fool lying bleeding on the ground, looks at his beer bottle, and shrugs, tosses the bottle away, robs the Warlock and goes back into the tavern to get another drink.

It's going to be one of those days again...

Yeah, if you want to go caster vs. caster, then do that. There are better casters than an EK. To me an EK is not a fighter its a half fighter half wizard.

Now if we go with other classes, a bladesinger wizard 10 would tear up a level 20 fighter that was not a caster. It would even have a chance against a an EK.

This is because with blade singing and a maxed dex (high elf) you can achieve AC 24 when you need them (shield). You can also polymorph several times, or go Greater Invisibility. If you are fighting the ranged fighter you keep them still with Booming Blade, and maybe keep a haste on you for the extra attack and damage (not to mention higher AC).

Wizard(Bladesinger)
High Elf

Strength 10 (+0) [10]
Dexterity 18 (+4) [14, +2 race, +2 ASI]
Constitution 14 (+2) [14]
Intelligence 16 (+3) [15, +1 race]
Wisdom 9 (-1) [9]
Charisma 9 (-1) [9]

Feats: War Caster, ASI (Dex)

AC 13(Mage Armor)+4(dex)+3(int from blade song)=20
AC with Shield spell 25

Active spells: either Greater Invisibility, Blink, Fire Shield, Animate Objects (tiny) or Polymorph (T-Rex)

Greater Invisibility: If this spell is active the Fighter has disadvantage on attacks and the bladesinger has advantage on attacks against the fighter.

Blink: Half the time the wizard is just gone. In order to do anything about this the Fighter has to ready an action to attack cutting their 4 (or 5) attacks down to 1. Meanwhile the Bladesinger is whaling away at full power with Booming Blade or another instant damage spell.

Fire Shield: Not the best option, but every time the fighter hits the Bladesinger it pays a damage tax.

Animate Objects: Animating a bunch of coins can DPR the fighter out pretty quick.

Polymoprh (T-Rex): Just match the fighters attack and damage potential until they eat through your hp. Grapple and restrain the Fighter for adv/disadvantage combo. This spell is particularly hilarious with blink (a non-concentration spell) active.

Good luck trying to interrupt this Bladesingers concentration they have a very low chance unless the fighter manages to do more than 20 damage on a single attack and even then its in the single percentage digits. Bladesingers get to add their Intelligence modifier to the concentration save as well as having advantage and their Constitution bonus.

Then of course when the fighter does land a blow they can absorb the damage by giving away lower level slots that they won't be using. A 3rd level slot absorbs 15 damage.

If the fighter is an EK and tries to counterspell, this wizard will just counterspell the counterspell. They have more slots so they win that race.

So yeah, there are classes that can win against a level 20 fighter.

MaxWilson

2016-05-12, 12:13 AM

Yeah, if you want to go caster vs. caster, then do that. There are better casters than an EK. To me an EK is not a fighter its a half fighter half wizard.

Now if we go with other classes, a bladesinger wizard 10 would tear up a level 20 fighter that was not a caster. It would even have a chance against a an EK.

This is because with blade singing and a maxed dex (high elf) you can achieve AC 24 when you need them (shield). You can also polymorph several times, or go Greater Invisibility. If you are fighting the ranged fighter you keep them still with Booming Blade, and maybe keep a haste on you for the extra attack and damage (not to mention higher AC).

Make sure you (counter-intuitively) cast Shield V, because an EK can just Counterspell your basic Shield I.

I doubt that's going to be enough to save your life but it should at least prevent him from headshotting or power attacking you, which will roughly double your survivability. Polymorph is a lost cause, and Haste is risky, and I doubt Booming Blade (even if you hit with it, which you probably won't) and its little 2d8 of damage is going to deter the EK from moving if he wants to move, which he probably doesn't because hello, ranged fighter. (And since he's not headshotting you he doesn't even lose anything if you stand right in his face and make him pull out a rapier instead of his bow.) The only real reason he would have to move is if you're playing games with total cover. Is that what you have in mind?

And don't forget about the fighter's own opportunity attack, and the possibility of grapples. The Bladesinger's best chance of winning is going to thinking outside the box--if he tries to slug it out he will lose. Summoning Magma Mephits (for four simultaneous castings of Heat Metal) might be worth trying; so would spells like Blink and Mirror Image.

djreynolds

2016-05-12, 12:22 AM

When I go S&B fighter, I go rapier and shield. And all I need is a 13 in dexterity to use defensive duelist once a round for up to +6AC vs a melee attack, or even booming blade. Even a strength based fighter can afford a 13 in dex.

If you're invisible, I may just take the dodge action the whole time. We'll see how long one minute goes by.

And since I have a shield I may take shield master and just prone you and use the mobile feat and just walk away.

The fact is you still have to hit me, and my AC may be 20 with full plate and shield.

It'll be a tough fight, but the fighter has double your HP, AC 20. And you proficiency score is a +3 or +4, while mine is a +6.

bid

2016-05-12, 12:22 AM

R.Shackleford

2016-05-12, 12:28 AM

Except that the comparisons have all turned into a joke about how much you have to gimp the fighter to make it so that... they still win.

I think the point is that if you even entertain "hmm can a level 10 X class best a level 20 Y class" then your level 20 Y class is broken.

Like, it shouldn't be a contest no matter which level 10 class you picked versus which level 20 class you pick.

But then again I believe the fighter shouldn't be no more than 5 to 8 levels long as you don't really gain anything past those levels.

Edit

Like... If you took two defensive linemen, one from high school and one from the NFL and said "who wins in a shoving match"... It is a no brainer that the NFL player, no matter how good the high school player is, will utterly destroy the high school player (and probabaly accidently kill them due to the sheer power difference).

The difference between the fighter (at 20) and other classes (say at 10) is more like a 16 seed NCAA tournament team versus a 1 Seed NIT tournament team...

Giant2005

2016-05-12, 12:54 AM

it shouldn't be a contest

It isn't. This thread proved that quite conclusively.

Vogonjeltz

2016-05-12, 01:06 AM

You're right it prevents 25. But each casting reflects 75 on average. So 12th level with 3 slots. Is 225 reflection. Even if each only soaked two attacks it's still 150 damage across 3 rounds which is far more than EB could pull off. Plus it has mitigated 75 damage you would have taken.

I'd say you could spare an action for those numbers.

Of course as mentioned it does need you to have pilfered his ranged weapons. Or to bait him into honorable combat with no ranged weaponry. And still doesn't mean you're going to win. But it's probably the best chance you have as hold person obviously won't work. And eblasts won't do enough either.

It can't reflect 75 on average unless it took an average of 3 hits to deal 25 damage. With GWM/Sharpshooter it's going to take 1-2 hits for an average of between 25-50 damage reflected per casting...but this defense requires a spell slot to use and the Warlock only has 2-3 depending on the 10-11 level changeover, worse, the Warlock would be incapable of using the theoretically dangerous Hold Person or any other spell at all.

The Fighter is going to plow that Armor of Agathys and not even look back.
Battlemasters easily blow out the damage from superiority dice, Champions auto-heal and go crit-fishing, and EK's could simply counter-spell all Warlock's spell slots without breaking a sweat.

A 10 Warlock is meat for the grinder against a 20 Fighter of any sub-class.

djreynolds

2016-05-12, 01:22 AM

I have yet to understand this whole thread.

Obviously the fighter and ranger are poorly written classes. Are we all just finding this out?

Is that the fighter's fault or the game designers. Are we mocking something made-up?

I find the cantrips boring and cheesy, and over-powered. An eldritch blast is doing 4d10 at 17th level, actually all cantrips are doing 4dsomething at 17th, a fighter doesn't even have a 4th attack till 20th level.

But the reality is this, I can make an 8th level champion fighter, with 2 levels of warlock and EB, and be pretty formidable. Its not like I need the other 8 levels of warlock.

I've played a champion and loved it. Its a great class. Its feels realistic to me.

Malifice

2016-05-12, 01:47 AM

Wall of Force in half-dome over the Fighter. If it's an EK, make it a complete sphere.

If it is a BM or Champion, just lol. Half-dome hovering 1/2 inch off the ground.

The fighter stands on his helmet. Your move. Not sure how you intend on targeting him. You've only got 1 cm of space to shoot through, and its at ground level.

Also - can you show me in the spell description where it says the fighter cant just simply grab the edges and push the wall off himself? Its not anchored to anything. Why cant he lift it off himself seeing as youve left him some nice handolds?

Here is the spell description:

'An invisible wall of force springs into existence at a point you choose within range. The wall appears in any orientation you choose, as a horizontal or vertical barrier or at an angle. It can be free floating or resting on a solid surface. You can form it into a hemispherical dome or a sphere with a radius of up to 10 feet, or you can shape a flat surface made up of ten 10-foot-by-10-foot panels. Each panel must be continguous with another panel. In any form, the wall is 1/4 inch thick. It lasts for the duration. If the wall cuts through a creature’s space when it appears, the creature is pushed to one side of the wall (your choice which side). Nothing can physically pass through the wall. It is immune to all damage and can’t be dispelled by dispel magic. A disintegrate spell destroys the wall instantly, however. The wall also extends into the Ethereal Plane, blocking ethereal travel through the wall.'

Doesnt say anywhere the wall cant be moved. Seems to me like the wall is quite moveable, particularly if not anchored to anything. A creature trapped in a sphere would roll downhill for example.

1. Animate Objects + Blink is hilarious.

Requires two rounds for a 50 percent defence. You'll be dead by round on account of 2 action surges by then, and your animated objects will be back to being normal ones after you fail your first con save.

2. Phantasmal Force = good luck as an non-EK on that -1 not-proficient Int save (no one takes Resiliency (Int)).

Oh noes! 1d6 psychic damage per turn. Useful distraction tactic though.

3. Polymorph into a Giant Ape. Human Variant for Resiliency (Con) + Giant Ape con mod = likely to make most concentration saves. Work through all the Fighter's resources before popping out against a heavily damaged Fighter while you are down....one 4th level spell slot.

When you polymorph you replace your stat block with the critters stat block. Resilient Con doesnt transfer with the switch.

And congratulations. You've just used a 4th level slot (and your action) to disable your spells and give yourself an AC of 12 (and a con save of +4) against a GWM fighter 20 with an action surge and superiority dice up his sleeve. Youll be lucky to remain in ape form after a single swing at most, and I assure you you'll be dead before you can act again.

Evocation would probably be the easiest because of Int-mod to damage + Magic Missile hitting for 7d4+42 (~60) out of a 5th level slot against your Wall of Forced butt. 2-3 (lower level slots obviously) will burn through even a Champs resistance once brought down to 1/2 health.

Single target, so you only add Int the once.

Divination would of course be laughable depending on Portent rolls. Suggestion + auto-fail roll = I'm just a lowly weakling, take off all your gear and beat me with just your hands.

He drops his weapons, moves over and uses his first attack to put you in a headlock [grapple you], his second to disarm you of your components, his third to strip you of any spell foci, and he then proceeds to beat you to death with his fists (spamming menacing strike on each punch) for 1d12+6 damage per hit for attacks 4-7. Finally he jams his hand over your mouth with his final attack (opposed str athletics check).

If you deal a single point of damage, your suggestion ends and he may draws his maul. Or just keep throttling you to death. Either works.

This all kind of ignores the fact that all the fighter has to do is win initiative, walk over and clobber the Wizard (who assuming a Con and Dex of 14, and Mage armor pre cast, has 62 HP and an AC of 15 (20 with shield). The Fighter enters the battle with +9 to initiative and 3 lucky re-rolls, 8 sup dice (d12s) precise strike, disarming strike, knockdown strike, menacing strike and others, two action surges, indomitable, archery F/S a maul, greatsword and bow (Str 20, Dex 18), GWM, Alert, Resilient [Wisdom], Lucky and the Sharpshooter feats.

With 8 attacks at (1d20+6) vs AC 20 (assuming shield), the ability to add +1d12 to a miss (turning it into a hit) and dealing (2d6+15+1d12) per hit, the Wizard basically just dies if he loses initiative.

All things being equal, the Fighter wins initaitive, and its a lucky wizard 10 indeed that survives a full action surging/ novaing fighter 20.

He certainly wont survive a second action surge, so he'd better have one of those 5th level slots up his sleeve and ready to cast.

Envyus

2016-05-12, 01:54 AM

A better way to compare classes rather then having them fight each other is to have them fight a decently tough Monster.

Lets toss a Behir on them. See which of the two does better.

Lets assume they are starting 50 feet away in some random dungeon chamber with a 20 ft tall roof.

Gwendol

2016-05-12, 02:19 AM

Let me introduce you all to the Wall of Force spell. Also know as the "Neener neener I win" button for Wizards with access to level 5+ spells.

Wall of Force in half-dome over the Fighter. If it's an EK, make it a complete sphere.

EK

If it tries to Counterspell, just Counter-counterspell. You can't Dispel a Wall of Force, can't teleport through it. Use time to cast Blink, Mirror Image, etc. for buffs and Greater Invisibility as the last one (breaks concentration). Drop bombs from distance (Blink/Mirror Image getting you through several rounds). If Great Invis gets broken, I would go for Animate Objects for doing damage to an EK, as moving out of their range provokes AoO, unless they use Misty Step which you can Counterspell (and they can't Counter-counterspell because they've used their Bonus Action to cast a spell, tada).

If it is a BM or Champion, just lol. Half-dome hovering 1/2 inch off the ground. Blink/Mirror Image for giggles. Drop non-concentration based cantrips their way until they die, you've got 100 rounds. If they somehow survive, just do it again. If the Champion is out-regenerating, drop in some Fireballs, Cones of Cold.

Alternatively:

1. Animate Objects + Blink is hilarious.

2. Phantasmal Force = good luck as an non-EK on that -1 not-proficient Int save (no one takes Resiliency (Int)).

3. Polymorph into a Giant Ape. Human Variant for Resiliency (Con) + Giant Ape con mod = likely to make most concentration saves. Work through all the Fighter's resources before popping out against a heavily damaged Fighter while you are down....one 4th level spell slot.

4. I haven't even mentioned which School of Wizard I would go with yet.

Evocation would probably be the easiest because of Int-mod to damage + Magic Missile hitting for 7d4+42 (~60) out of a 5th level slot against your Wall of Forced butt. 2-3 (lower level slots obviously) will burn through even a Champs resistance once brought down to 1/2 health.

Divination would of course be laughable depending on Portent rolls. Suggestion + auto-fail roll = I'm just a lowly weakling, take off all your gear and beat me with just your hands.

There's a lot of if's and but's implied in the scenarios outlined above. Cone of cold doesn't pass through the wall of force, and if you imply the wizard will lie flat on his belly, right next to the gap in order to shoot fireballs... Nah. Aiming the streak from afar? I would pull out the geometric calculation showing the distance of the wizard to the WoF, the size of the gap, the thickness of the WoF (1/4 inch), to see if there truly is a LoE.

Gwendol

2016-05-12, 02:36 AM

Malifice

2016-05-12, 02:58 AM

Well, fireball works as long as the wizard can make sure the impact happens inside the sphere. However, as you note above it does not appear to be immovable, contrary to Forcecage. Also, does a wall of force even have weight? Looks like it makes for a lousy trap.

The wall of force is definately in the realms of 'DM's call'.

Perfectly flat floors arent exactly common however, and this fighter has a maul and a greatsword to dig his way out of any earth or stone or wood (carve out a big enough chunk to wriggle through anyways). With a strength of 20 we can assume it wont take him more than a few rounds to do so (barring some kind of perfectly flat cement floor).

Re fireball, In my games I require a spell attack roll vs AC 10+cover to lob a fireball through a narrow slit or small gap, or to obtain equal pinpoint precision. Its a DMs call thing. Gives spell sniper another thing to do also.

Again, you need a perfectly flat floor (or to be standing next to the crack) to even have LOS in the first place.

That said a long rest class hitting an encounter fully rested at the start of an adventuring day has more options to nova than a short rest class does. A Paladin 10 could give the fighter a reasonable run for his money by nova smiting.

Of course by the end of the adventuring day, the battle swings in favor of the fighter even more, so there is that.

Gwendol

2016-05-12, 03:58 AM

DM call or not, is is explicitly not immovable. It is described as either free floating or resting on a solid surface. OTOH it is not described as weightless either.

Malifice

2016-05-12, 04:12 AM

DM call or not, is is explicitly not immovable. It is described as either free floating or resting on a solid surface. OTOH it is not described as weightless either.

The 3e version expressly didnt move:

'The wall cannot move, it is immune to damage of all kinds, and it is unaffected by most spells...'

The 5e version omits this information about the wall not being moveable. It looks like the wall can be moved or toppled.

I'd probably rule its 'more or less' immobile. Maybe allow it to be moved with a very high Str [althletics] check. Beats me.

Forcecage is expressly immobile, but thats a 7th level spell:

'An immobile, invisible, cube-shaped prison composed of magical force springs into existence around an area you choose within range. The prison can be a cage or a solid box as you choose.'

Rhedyn

2016-05-12, 05:36 AM

The fighter wins most of the time. There is always exceptions but the fighter has the overwhelming advantage.

Hold person + melee crits = some damage. Fighter is fine

Hard cc = fighter still fine

What a warlock would need is lots of room and a fighter bad at range combat with little gap closures. Or the warlock needs to hyper combo while the Fighter does nothing of sort. In most situations the warlock is dead before their turn even happens.

RulesJD

2016-05-12, 09:12 AM

DM call or not, is is explicitly not immovable. It is described as either free floating or resting on a solid surface. OTOH it is not described as weightless either.

Sweet jesus you people have no idea how 5e spells work.

No, a Wall of Force is not movable. How do I know?

Because a Otto's Resilient Sphere specifically IS movable. Even describes how it is. A lack of something (saying it is or isn't movable) doesn't not equal that the opposite is automatically true, ESPECIALLY WHEN THE DEVELOPERS SPECIFICALLY INCLUDED IT ELSEWHERE.

E for effort, F for execution. Your BM/Champion are 100% stuck inside the sphere, baring digging out of it.

Level 10 Wizard (and this part will be reaching but I have it on both of my high level Wizards after the SCAG rebuild) casts Mold Earth to fill back in whatever the Fighter digs out after 5-6 rounds of digging.

On to the next bit of fallacies....

RulesJD

2016-05-12, 09:34 AM

Can you explain where in the Wall of Force spell it says you can't teleport through it? Forcecube is a similar effect that specifically calls out a required Charisma save, Wall of Force makes no such mention.

If the dome is high enough off the ground for you to shoot cantrips through, it is high enough off the ground for the Fighter to shoot his crossbow out of at you. Blink is pretty easily defeated by readied attack actions, and Mirror Image is going to tend to get torn down fairly quickly due to the mirrors having garbage AC without the Shield spam you're likely going to do.

Yeah, Battlemaster and Champion aren't great for 1v1s against casters. An EK or a Monster Hunter is going to be more problematic though, since both are better at Int saves. Monster Hunters are quite good at disrupting concentration (damage die + 5 stat + 10 for GWF/SS + 2d12 superiority dice and applying disadvantage on the Conc save). EKs could just dispel your polymorph, and then Action Surge to explode your face.

Do you even know how Fighter class features work? You apply your portent roll and then the fighter uses Indomitable to ignore it, wasting your Portent and rerolling his save. Not to mention that's the sort of Suggestion that should probably fail if you've already trapped him in a Wall of Force.

For the record, I think that Wizard 10 properly set up and winning initiative (or just having time to prebuff sufficiently) is probably going to win this, but you're making a lot of stupid assumptions that would quite literally get your wizard killed in a real situation.

1. Spells don't pass through it. If you want to interpret that it means you can Teleport (lets be honest with an EK that means Misty Step) through it that's fine, but it would have to be established ahead of time.

If so, then obviously Wall of Force wouldn't be used against an EK and the Wizard still has their Reaction

2. So very, very false. I'm not shooting Cantrips through, which with 1/2 inch would provide 3/4 cover. I'd be using Save vs. DC ones, which don't involve any attack roll at all. Say Hi to Acid Splash for me as all I need is an opening big enough to get the spell through, which 1/2 inch is more than plenty.

Do this for me. Go grab a ruler and measure out a 1/2 inch. Now turn it vertical. Now try to imagine shooting anything through that which wont automatically land in the dirt in front of you, much less 60ft away.

3. Readied Attack Action = ONE attack, not an entire set of Actions. With that 1 spell I got a 50% chance of you getting, at best, 1 attack, maybe. 75% reduction in your ability to attack sounds like a pretty fair trade off.

4. I don't care what a Monster Hunter can do. It's not legal for the games I play so it isn't relevant to me.

5. He could try to Dispel it, because Polymorph is a level 4 spells he would need to make a DC 14 Int check without proficiency. Would fail about 45% of the time.

6. Action Surge, assuming Greatsword + GWM + Criting for a Bonus attack (less than half as likely but I'm switching everything and giving the freaking lvl 20 EK the benefit of the doubt) = ~125 damage if ALL attacks hit (which would be against AC 21 with Shield up). In reality, the EK will have +6 to hit if going with GWM, so lets take that ~125 damage down by 70% to account for the 15 needed to hit to account for the misses, so ~40-55 damage at best. Average Health of a 16 Con Wizard will be 72, so nope, he survives your big scary Action Surge (again assuming that the Wizard didn't Blink away).

7. Yes, I do know how Portent rules work. Good point about Indomitable, I'll just stick with my DC 17 Int save with Phantasmal Force so again, good luck with that. Indomitable doesn't mean you succeed, it means you get a shot at rolling again. Targeting Int/Cha saves means your Fighter, even your EK, is going to be screwed against a Divination Wizard, much less a Necromancer or an Evocation Wizard.

8. So far the BEST you've got is that maybe a Wall of Force wouldn't trap an EK ONLY IF you ignore the "spells can't pass through it" language and interpret that to mean that spells which permit teleportation let you pass through.

Forcecage is different btw because you can purposely have it have 1/2 inch openings AND doesn't require Concentration. But at this point you're making concessions to have your level 20 Fighter survive in a fight against a level 10 Wizard, so the Wizard's already won.

On to the next one...

Rysto

2016-05-12, 09:36 AM

2. So very, very false. I'm not shooting Cantrips through, which with 1/2 inch would provide 3/4 cover. I'd be using Save vs. DC ones, which don't involve any attack roll at all. Say Hi to Acid Splash for me as all I need is an opening big enough to get the spell through, which 1/2 inch is more than plenty.

3/4 cover provides a +5 to DEX saves.

Cybren

2016-05-12, 09:45 AM

It's a weird interpretation of "pass through" that you think teleporting involves moving between the space you're teleporting in to. Which is the opposite of what "teleport" means. If also find it questionable that you can target someone with a spell when the only opening is a half inch wide.

RulesJD

2016-05-12, 09:50 AM

The fighter stands on his helmet. Your move. Not sure how you intend on targeting him. You've only got 1 cm of space to shoot through, and its at ground level.

Also - can you show me in the spell description where it says the fighter cant just simply grab the edges and push the wall off himself? Its not anchored to anything. Why cant he lift it off himself seeing as youve left him some nice handolds?

Here is the spell description:

'An invisible wall of force springs into existence at a point you choose within range. The wall appears in any orientation you choose, as a horizontal or vertical barrier or at an angle. It can be free floating or resting on a solid surface. You can form it into a hemispherical dome or a sphere with a radius of up to 10 feet, or you can shape a flat surface made up of ten 10-foot-by-10-foot panels. Each panel must be continguous with another panel. In any form, the wall is 1/4 inch thick. It lasts for the duration. If the wall cuts through a creature’s space when it appears, the creature is pushed to one side of the wall (your choice which side). Nothing can physically pass through the wall. It is immune to all damage and can’t be dispelled by dispel magic. A disintegrate spell destroys the wall instantly, however. The wall also extends into the Ethereal Plane, blocking ethereal travel through the wall.'

Doesnt say anywhere the wall cant be moved. Seems to me like the wall is quite moveable, particularly if not anchored to anything. A creature trapped in a sphere would roll downhill for example.

Requires two rounds for a 50 percent defence. You'll be dead by round on account of 2 action surges by then, and your animated objects will be back to being normal ones after you fail your first con save.

Oh noes! 1d6 psychic damage per turn. Useful distraction tactic though.

When you polymorph you replace your stat block with the critters stat block. Resilient Con doesnt transfer with the switch.

And congratulations. You've just used a 4th level slot (and your action) to disable your spells and give yourself an AC of 12 (and a con save of +4) against a GWM fighter 20 with an action surge and superiority dice up his sleeve. Youll be lucky to remain in ape form after a single swing at most, and I assure you you'll be dead before you can act again.

Single target, so you only add Int the once.

He drops his weapons, moves over and uses his first attack to put you in a headlock [grapple you], his second to disarm you of your components, his third to strip you of any spell foci, and he then proceeds to beat you to death with his fists (spamming menacing strike on each punch) for 1d12+6 damage per hit for attacks 4-7. Finally he jams his hand over your mouth with his final attack (opposed str athletics check).

If you deal a single point of damage, your suggestion ends and he may draws his maul. Or just keep throttling you to death. Either works.

This all kind of ignores the fact that all the fighter has to do is win initiative, walk over and clobber the Wizard (who assuming a Con and Dex of 14, and Mage armor pre cast, has 62 HP and an AC of 15 (20 with shield). The Fighter enters the battle with +9 to initiative and 3 lucky re-rolls, 8 sup dice (d12s) precise strike, disarming strike, knockdown strike, menacing strike and others, two action surges, indomitable, archery F/S a maul, greatsword and bow (Str 20, Dex 18), GWM, Alert, Resilient [Wisdom], Lucky and the Sharpshooter feats.

With 8 attacks at (1d20+6) vs AC 20 (assuming shield), the ability to add +1d12 to a miss (turning it into a hit) and dealing (2d6+15+1d12) per hit, the Wizard basically just dies if he loses initiative.

All things being equal, the Fighter wins initaitive, and its a lucky wizard 10 indeed that survives a full action surging/ novaing fighter 20.

He certainly wont survive a second action surge, so he'd better have one of those 5th level slots up his sleeve and ready to cast.

1. See prior post that I'm not using Attack Roll cantrips, I'm using DC Save ones. You only need Line of Effect + Line of Sight. No attack roll needed.

2. See prior post about a spell that has specific rules for a Wall/Sphere being moved. Wall of Force does not, in fact it literally has the magical ability to push you INSIDE of it, so no, you aren't grabbing it and moving it.

3. 16 Con + Resiliency Con = +7 to Concentration saves. Not great, but easy to take the chance.

4. Phantasmal Force of an image of burning chains being wrapped around you and walls of spikes of necrotic death immediately around you. Or any other image. Phantasmal Force = hard CC with an even remotely creative player. So yes, it's only 1d6 pyschic. It also completely disables you unless you make a DC 17 Int save (can Indomintable that one) one casting or a DC 17 Int Check (can't indomintable that one) for every subsequent check. Good luck with your -1 Int modifier while the Wizard is STILL ATTACKING each round, which your Phantasmal Force'd mind will rationalize as damage from the spike wall/chains/acid/whatever. Don't blame me for people not knowing how Phantasmal Force works.

5. Good call about the Resiliency not carrying over into Polymorph. But if its a BM, remember, 1/2 inch Wall of Force so no, you wont be swinging with anything at all. See prior post that possibly an EK could get out IF you rule in favor of the level 20 Fighter.

6. NOOOOOOOPE. You add your Int mod to each missile of Magic Missile. Why? Because jeremy crawford said so (all the missiles hit simultaneously so you only roll 1d4 + 1 + Int mod to calculate the damage for all the missiles). The original Int mod only once is idiotic anyways, but there you have it.

7. You are assuming you can do a LOT more than you actually can with Grapple checks, but again, you're already assuming so much in favor of the level 20 Fighter, as with the previous poster, the level 10 Wizard has already won if you need to change THAT MUCH in favor of the Fighter.

A remotely competent Wizard has 16 Dex and 16 Con (Resiliency Con) and 16 Int at the start of their career.

Your Fighter only automatically wins if they start 30ft or less and wins Initiative. Start at 35ft? Nope (unless PAM so we'll make it 45ft). You do realize you're grasping at straws to find a way for your level 20 Fighter to beat, I reiterate, a level 10 Wizard right? We had to give EVERYTHING in favor of the level 10 Warlock. I haven't asked for a single thing in favor of the level 10 Wizard, so I'm pretty sure the Wizard starting the fight isn't much to ask for haha.