Miniatures Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVII: Tyranids Finally Found A Friend [Archive]

Cheesegear

2016-10-12, 03:27 AM

**8th Edition is coming in Q2, 2017. It is unwise to start a new army at this time.**

Warhammer 40,000 in the Playground

I'm new to the hobby. Which army should I start?
It really depends on what you want to play. And how your meta-game shapes up. Find out what everyone else is playing near you, and play anything not those armies for best results. Otherwise, if you're starting from scratch with no-one really to play with - or, you've got a friend who is also starting from scratch - buy the Dark Vengeance starter box.

What's Dark Vengeance?
Dark Vengeance contains a rulebook and a bunch of dice.

It contains roughly 850 Points worth of Dark Angels. However, it only contains around 500 points worth of Chaos Space Marines. Of course, if you're playing DV as it's meant to be played, you're never using all of the models at once so the points difference doesn't really matter.

However, in practical terms, the Dark Angels are only barely legal and lack enough Scoring models. And, while the CSMs are legal, they're almost 300 points behind and lack anything that packs a decent punch. You will also need the relevant Codecies for your faction as it will dramatically change the way you play the game as opposed to using the reference sheets that come with DV.

How much does it cost?
The Dark Vengeance box, one Codex, one other box of your choosing, and a Starter Paint Set costs you about the same as a Playstation 3 and one game*. In both cases, you'd be good to go for about a month. This author thinks of most boxes as console games, and Flyers and Land Raiders are the AAA-Title Collector's Edition game. The difference being that in this hobby you can use all your 'games' at the same time, and continuously.

Is WH40K expensive? Yes. I suppose it is. We all know it is. But, practically speaking, it's no more expensive than any other hobby.

*Priced in $AU where everything is more expensive - although the ratios should be the same.

Okay, I've got everything. What next?
Play some games. Playing some actual games, is a far, far better learning experience than anything you could glean from the internet. Although we really would appreciate some stories and how you're finding your army.
Find out what works for you, find out what doesn't (just because the internet likes something, doesn't mean you will too). You, more than anyone know who your opponents are and what they're putting on the table. You are in the best position to find out what you need to bring to the table.

However, if you're still stuck. Just ask.

How many points do I need? What size board do I need?
There are ways that you can play 200, 400 and 500 point games using altered rules. But, if you want to play the game as-is, the recommended minimum is 750.

The game 'balances out' at 1500. Most games should be played at this level since pretty much all armies get a fair shake.

However, in other meta-games, find out what the local tournament standard is. Most people in your area should be playing at that points level. While you're at it, here's How to write an army list. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8702512&postcount=1358)

As for board size; a 4x4' table can accommodate up to 1250 with reasonable room left for movement. But, after that you should probably look at finding a 6x4' area. The floor is never a bad start.

I did what you said and I still lost. What gives? :smallfurious:
First, this game is all about dice. Dice are random (most of the time anyway), sometimes you just get bad rolls all game and there's nothing you can really do about it. It's best to accept it, otherwise you're not going to have a very fun time.

Sometimes your opponent can make a minor change in his list - like changing from Plasma Cannons to Lascannons. That can totally alter the flow of the game and what happens when they next play you.

Sometimes the terrain placement is just bad (or the terrain itself is bad) and right from Deployment you can find yourself getting shot at and there's nothing you can do about it. Really, this can only stress how important terrain can be to how the game gets played.

And, lastly, maybe you just 'did it wrong'? Maybe you used [X] to shoot [Y] when they should have been shooting [Z]. Maybe you Charged, when the better move could have been moving backwards and Rapid Firing instead? There are all sorts of ways you can be out-played. You didn't just lose because your opponents' Queens are overpowered.

Terrain? You said this hobby was only as expensive as any other.
Yes and no. Most of your 'starting' terrain can be household items. Books. Soda-cans. Small boxes. Whatever.

If you look around the internet, you can also find a few tutorials on how to make some really decent-looking terrain. Made out of what you essentially would have otherwise thrown in the bin.

Only GW Terrain actually costs you any significant money. Making your own should only cost a few dollars tops - and your time and effort.

How much terrain do I need?
Up to 12 pieces is the official word. However, that can get crowded pretty fast if you've got big pieces.

A better guide is roughly anywhere between 25-33% of the board should be covered by terrain. On a standard 6x4' table, you would want anywhere between 6-8' square of terrain. It seems like a lot. But if you divide that up to 7-12 pieces, it doesn't look like much. Or you could just put a 2x3' block in the centre of the board. :smallsigh:

I don't like using Special Characters, and I think Allies are dumb.
Your opponents probably don't. Special Characters are pretty powerful and there's no real reason that you shouldn't be using them if your opponents are. That's not to say that all Special Characters are good - they aren't - and certainly don't get the impression that just because it's a Special Character that you need to use it - you don't. But some of them are still good and they do make certain armies a lot better.

However, Allies, on the other hand. Are often a required part of the game. Some armies just don't have the units required to fend off other units. Does this make the game unfair? Kind of. But, GW doesn't update their entire range at once (it's a big range), and so some units are always going to be better than others. But, allowing Allies is a big step to evening the playing field.

So which Allies should I pick?
Depends on your army, and what units you already have. Ask in the thread.

I can't paint.
Like any skill worth having, you get better if you practice. 90% of a good paint job is just brush control - how much paint you put on your brush and where you put it. The other 10% is just colour theory (yeah, it's a thing). The most important tool this author has is a $5 Colour Wheel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20355942&postcount=1425). :smallwink:

But, on a more serious note, the only real reason that you need to paint is if you want to participate in tournaments. Well, that and painted models just look better - if you've practised, of course.

Unfortunately, painting is a practical skill, not knowledge. The only person who can get you better at painting is you. Wraith has put together how you can go about Painting your army without losing your mind. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8722344&postcount=1421)

Which army is the best?
That's a loaded question. It depends what points limit you're playing at (at 1500 there really isn't one). But, there is no 'best' army. Plasma beats Terminators beats Mech beats Plasma. 40K is much like Rock, Paper, Scissors. None of the armies are 'best', as each army can be countered. Some armies are better than others, but there is no 'best'.

However, as you play the game you will notice that your Codex doesn't have the units that beat another Codex. That's not to say that you haven't won any games, and it's not to say that your opponents' armies haven't lost several games to armies that just aren't yours. It just means that your army can't beat your opponent's army with what you've got available to you. That's why Allies need to be in the game.

Wait, so there are bad Codecies?
Yes. But, every Codex should be usable between 1000-1500 points. So, no matter what army you pick, you'll be okay within those points limits, or, you should be. If you find that your Codex/Army isn't doing well against certain opponents, and there's nothing you can do; You may need Allies.

Helpful Army Building Guides
7th Edition Guides
Blood Angels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18559882&postcount=120)
Chaos Space Marines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17547175&postcount=1006)
- Traitor's Hate and Traitor Legions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21498383&postcount=1370) by LeSwordfish
Chaos Daemons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18615478&postcount=343)
Cult Mechanicus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19564617&postcount=969)
Dark Eldar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18231371&postcount=779)
Deathwatch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21105269&postcount=563)
Grey Knights (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18892643&postcount=999)
Harlequins (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21117961&postcount=617)
Imperial Agents (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21504500&postcount=1399)
Khorne Daemonkin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19029512&postcount=1236) by Grim Portent
Necrons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20054321&postcount=401) by Requizen
Skitarii (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19433696&postcount=665)

Space Marines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19496134&postcount=821)
- Space Marines, Part II: Chapter Tactics and Special Characters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19522424&postcount=849)
- Space Marines, Part III:
- - Shadow Force Solaq (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19991666&postcount=259)
- - Kauyon Detachments and Formations (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20044717&postcount=378)

Space Wolves (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17946320&postcount=453) by Squark
Tyranids (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17664323&postcount=1310) by Wraith

Tau Empire (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15454276&postcount=563) by Tome
- Farsight Enclaves (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?341687-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XX-quot-Barrage-is-the-new-Precision-Shot-quot&p=17347839&viewfull=1#post17347839) by Tome

Orks
-WAAAGH!!! Ghazghkull (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?359820-Warhammer-40k-Tabletop-XXI-Preferred-Enemy-%28Dice%29&p=17723456#post17723456)

(Misc.) Fighter Aces (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18500576&postcount=1350) by Vaz
A Guide to Fortifications - Stronghold Assault (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17823987&postcount=287)

Kill Team
Guide to Kill Team Specialists (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21252937&postcount=1293)

Building on a Budget
Orks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19212984&postcount=139)
Dark Angels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19240362&postcount=203)
Chaos Space Marines (Nurgle) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19362421&postcount=492)
Blood Angels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19273122&postcount=258)
Grey Knights (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20242483&postcount=981)
Tau Empire (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20284052&postcount=1252)
Eldar Craftworlds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19470100&postcount=779)
Tyranids (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19306045&postcount=329)

Forge World
Siege Assault Vanguard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17668255&postcount=1326)

Imperial Armour
(IA1/2E) Imperial Guard Armoured Battle Group (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16838329&postcount=972) by Issabella
(IA2/2E) Space Marine Vehicles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16977518&postcount=1084)
(IA3/2E) Elysian Drop Troops (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?341687-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XX-quot-Barrage-is-the-new-Precision-Shot-quot/page3&p=17310139#post17310139) by Issabella
(IA9 / 10) Space Marine Chapter Tactics and Special Characters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16807713&postcount=890)
(IA12) The Dark Harvest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16994548&postcount=1096) - Necrons
(IA12) The Minotaurs and Krieg Assault Brigade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17033958&postcount=1143) - Space Marines and Imperial Guard

30K/Heresy Guides
30K Relics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18500576&postcount=1350) by Vaz
Solar Auxilia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18471119&postcount=1234) by Vaz
Taghmata Omnissiah Army List (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18522411&postcount=1421) by Vaz
Questoris Knights (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18471124&postcount=1235) by Vaz

30K/Legion Rules
Legion Crusade Army List (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17232158&postcount=1308)
Legion Special Rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17243267&postcount=1322)
The Primarchs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17250802&postcount=1330)

Previous Threads
* Warhammer 40K Tactics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29297)
* II: Tactics for the Tactics God (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101608)
* III: Hats for the Hat Throne (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119333)
* IV: The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133984)
* V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141538)
* VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149084)
* VII: Common Sense is not RAW. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156779)
* VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Maths (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165820)
* IX: "Mech Is King? I Never Voted For It!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175990)
* X: "Everybody expects the Inquisition!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184538)
* XI: "More Threads than your Tactical Squad has Room for!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193025)
* XII: "Now in Rapid Fire range!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199750)
* XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208838)
* XIV: "Pray for 6s!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221858)
* XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232277)
* XV: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248423)
* XVII: "Tyranids Don't Have Friends." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265917)
* XVIII: "Fortune Favours the Careless!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282842)
* XIX: Understand the Gravity of the Situation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303801-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XIX-quot-Understand-the-gravity-of-the-situation-quot)
* XX: Barrage is the new Precision Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?341687-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XX-quot-Barrage-is-the-new-Precision-Shot-quot)
* XXI: Preferred Enemy (Dice) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?359820-Warhammer-40k-Tabletop-XXI-Preferred-Enemy-(Dice))
* XXII: I C'Tan Has Cheese? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?388399-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXII-I-C-Tan-Has-Cheese#post18535364)
* XXIII: I Do Not Like Green Tides and 'Hann (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411374-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXIII-I-Do-Not-Like-Green-Tides-and-Hann)
* XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444969-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXIV-And-They-Shall-Know-No-Fluff&p=19863366&viewfull=1#post19863366)
* XXV: Friends Are Better Than Wraithknights
* XXVI: Frequently Asked, Frequently Ignored (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?476885-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXV-Friends-Are-Better-Than-Wraithknights)

Here's a bunch of Battle Reports (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18936242&postcount=1125) for you to read. Plenty of army lists in there.

Tome

2016-10-12, 09:38 AM

*continues to froth at the mouth at the thought of plastic sisters*

Forum Explorer

2016-10-12, 01:57 PM

So rumors of 8th are basically that it's going to be a big change. I've seen at least one statement saying not as big as AoS was to Fantasy, but we will see. Overall, I don't like 7th, so I'm hopeful.

Boci

2016-10-12, 02:04 PM

Continue the theme of things carrying from the previous thread -

Fixing the Dark Eldar: How would these tweaks work for making Dark Eldar more competitive amoung friends:

Add phantasm grenades to the default gear of all DE units that need it.

Hit the Ground Running: Understanding the importance of speed in a raid, Dark Eldar will often jump out of speeding vehicles to get into melee that much quicker. Breaking their fall (and sometimes their neck) with a roll, the screaming sadists pounce upon their enemies, letting the pain flow.
Any infantry model from the Dark Eldar codex may disembark from a vehicle that has flat-outed in the shooting phase. Any unit that does so much test for difficult terrain. In all other instances, use the regular rules for disembarking units.

Steady Aim: Use to firing from swearing vehicles in both the entrance and exit parts of their raid, Dark Elder can aim better than most in such circumstance. Whenever a model from the Dark Elder codex is snapfiring from having jinked or being embarked upon a vehicle which jinked, they may resolve their shooting at BS 2 rather than 1. They may still not use template weapons, and if another effect would cause them to snap fire then they must do so as described in the rule book. Reavers instead fire at their full ballistic skill, but otherwise follow the same restrictions.

And just to give a minor drawback to go with these bonuses that shouldn't adversely effect them too much (in that if this rule triggers they are already in trouble) -

Quick to Fall: Dark Eldar rely on ending combat with a decisive blow before the opponent is even aware what has happened, and tend to get itchy around an opponent that doesn't go down fast. If a unit from the Dark Eldar codex ever needs to make a leadership test as a result of losing combat, they roll 3d6 and discard the lowest.

Would that work?

Forum Explorer

2016-10-12, 02:18 PM

RyumaruMG

2016-10-12, 02:33 PM

So I recently started playing with one of my friends - I do Orks, he does CSM. I am convinced his dice have an unbridled hatred for my vehicles.

As in, his dice, every time he scores a penetrating hit on them, roll sixes. He is four for four on blowing up my stuff with this.

Tzeentch is a ****.

LeSwordfish

2016-10-12, 02:36 PM

Any plan to link the new thread in the old one?

And Citation Please for the great big warning at the top of the first post.

DaedalusMkV

2016-10-12, 02:48 PM

Continue the theme of things carrying from the previous thread -

Fixing the Dark Eldar: How would these tweaks work for making Dark Eldar more competitive amoung friends:

Add phantasm grenades to the default gear of all DE units that need it.

Presumably you mean Plasma grenades, since Phantasm grenades are never needed, and would not be a good thing to have on every unit (and I don't mean that in a 'you wouldn't want to' way).

Hit the Ground Running: Understanding the importance of speed in a raid, Dark Eldar will often jump out of speeding vehicles to get into melee that much quicker. Breaking their fall (and sometimes their neck) with a roll, the screaming sadists pounce upon their enemies, letting the pain flow.
Any infantry model from the Dark Eldar codex may disembark from a vehicle that has flat-outed in the shooting phase. Any unit that does so much test for difficult terrain. In all other instances, use the regular rules for disembarking units.

So... You like 30+2d6" charge range? We can go back to the bad old days, where Dark Eldar either instantly won the game or instantly lost based entirely on whether they got the first turn or not? This is a terrible idea, without fail. Either let them disembark after moving 12", if you feel that allowing the possibility of turn 1 charges is extremely important to you, or just make their melee units better so you don't need to be able to turn 1 charge every unit in the enemy army for them to not suck.

Steady Aim: Use to firing from swearing vehicles in both the entrance and exit parts of their raid, Dark Elder can aim better than most in such circumstance. Whenever a model from the Dark Elder codex is snapfiring from having jinked or being embarked upon a vehicle which jinked, they may resolve their shooting at BS 2 rather than 1. They may still not use template weapons, and if another effect would cause them to snap fire then they must do so as described in the rule book. Reavers instead fire at their full ballistic skill, but otherwise follow the same restrictions.

Just let them shoot at full BS. It wasn't OP when they could do it before and it wouldn't be OP now.

Turalisj

2016-10-12, 03:23 PM

There's something strange
In the underhive
Who ya gonna call?
Death Watch!

Brookshw

2016-10-12, 03:29 PM

I tried out kill team at ye olde local gaming store but the guy demoing it didn't seem entirely familiar with the a few of the rules.

When your army is down by 50% of the models, then every turn you make a leadership test per model to see if it leaves the fight, correct? So per model and per turn once you hit 50?

Moving over this question from previous thread.

Is it just my brief experience or does this moral rule screw over orks or other armies with low leadership and where the mitigation is in multitudes?

DataNinja

2016-10-12, 04:23 PM

Is it just my brief experience or does this moral rule screw over orks or other armies with low leadership and where the mitigation is in multitudes?

Wouldn't it (theoretically) be more difficult to get them down to that 50% point in the first place, if you are bringing multitudes of cheap units?

Drasius

2016-10-12, 05:41 PM

Brookshw

2016-10-12, 06:07 PM

Yes and yes. The idea being that it's difficult to kill a sufficient amount of mooks before they reach combat and chop you up, in addition to using your leaders ld within 6" and, if you have read Cheesegears guide, you're leader hopefully has fearless, so you won't have to check at all. Who it really screws over is moderate ld "elite" armies who bring an average number of troops who have no special defences and have average to poor ld.

Fair point and thanks for confirming. Speaking of Cheese's guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?490777-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXVI-Frequently-Asked-Frequently-Ignored&p=21252937&highlight=kill+team#post21252937), I didn't notice it in the army guides in the first post, thought I'd mention it as it could be a useful reference to put in.

Cheesegear

2016-10-12, 06:18 PM

Is it just my brief experience or does this moral rule screw over orks or other armies with low leadership and where the mitigation is in multitudes?

Yes.

Boyz: They have the option to take 4+ Armour, so they should. Unfortunately, this puts them at 10 points a model, plus a Nob with Power Klaw (and/or Kombi-Skorcha), and a Rokkit is going to set you back ~130 Points. Luckily, this does leave room for Tankbustas or Warbikers. Of course, you can always not take the 'Eavy Armour, but if you're doing that, you're going all in with over 20 models. Your opponent doesn't have enough bullets for them all. Remembering that aside from Rending Volley (kill any model with this rule ASAP), each model can only kill one model per turn.

Gretchin: No.

Burna Boyz: No.

Tankbustas: If you go first, you get an extra VP. Bomb Squigs hit on 2+ (give whoever has the Bomb Squigs, Ignores Cover), and they all carry Rokkits. They're very, very strong in the Kill Team format...Providing that you go first. Since there's no competition in the Elites slot, at minimum buy-in, they're 65 Points, and that's pretty good. As with all things Orky, their 6+ no Save is going to get them killed really, really fast. Either you go all-in on Tankbustas, and build your entire Kill Team around them, or you take the minimum 65 Points, to get five Rokkits into your Team.
(Boyz [x10]; Nob w/Power Klaw & Tankbustas [x5] = Only 160, but all your dudes have 6+ no Save)

Nobz: Take the 4+ Armour (or a Warbike). At 21 Points per model, they do...Fine. 2 Wounds is a lot in Kill Team. But, it's just not good enough. x3 Warbiker Nobz will set you back 135 Points, unfortunately, this does take your Elite slot, which means no Tankbustas, so you'll either have to fill out your numbers with Boyz with a 6+ no Save, or something from Fast. Hint; Choose something from Fast.

Kommandos: Infiltrate is good, but not if the model only has a 6+ no Save. Sensing a pattern?
- Snikrot: 60 Points for a single model with a 6+ no Save is simply too much.

Trukk: Tank Bustas can porcupine out of one. Just remember that a Trukk is not a Land Speeder Storm, and the fact that a Trukk is Open-Topped means all your 6+ no Save dudes will die to Templates, unlike SM Scouts, who have 4+ Armour and only die to Heavy Flamers.

Stormboyz: At 9 Points a model, they've traded their 'Eavy Armour for Jump Packs. This actually isn't a bad trade, especially if you take, like...15 of them. The appeal of Stormboyz is that your opponent simply isn't going to have enough bullets to kill them all, before they Charge on Turn 2. Cover is God-mode in Kill Team, and, unfortunately, that means making Dangerous Terrain checks with your Boyz...Who only have 6+ no Save. It's entirely possible that your Stormboyz can give up First Blood because one of them broke their ankle. It looks like the minimum buy-in for Stormboyz is 45 Points...But it's actually more like 90, and closer to 120. However many it takes so that you can still take Tankbustas. :smallwink:

Deffkoptas: At 30 Points each, they're not even bad. T5, 4+ Armour, 2 Wounds, can Jink if needed. Moves 12" a turn. Takes Rokkits. Deffkoptas are very strong if you're taking <3 of them. Especially since they have Scout (which is often overlooked). However, once you get to 4 models, you start to see the 30 points each price tag start to hurt, since now you've paid 120 Points for four models. A feasible Kill Team is simply Rokkit Spam; Deffkoptas and Tankbustas. Deffkoptas (T5, 4+, 2 Wounds) will ideally draw the fire away from your Tankbustas, and that'll give your 6+ no Save models some breathing room. Unfortunately, you're playing against an experienced opponent, who knows that killing your 6+ no Save dudes will also kill your Deffkoptas simply when they fail a Leadership check.
Expensive models with low Leadership (e.g; Grotesques) are real bad. Especially if they aren't Fearless. This is - again - where Necrons are great, since everything they own is Leadership 10. But we're not here to talk about Necrons.

Warbikers: 'About half' as expensive as Deffkoptas, but not quite as good. For one thing, no Twin-Linked Rokkits and no Scout. 5 Warbikers with a Nob with Power Klaw is 125 Points. This'll leave room for three more Nobz in 'Eavy Armour and an upgrade or two (i.e; Big Choppas). Or you can play with the ratio with 3 Warbikers and Nob/w/PK, and 4-5 Nobz in 'Eavy Armour. Or you can just do something with Boyz or Tankbustas. Except you just have to remember that if your opponent kills the models with 6+ no Save, the ones with low(er) Leadership and better Saves will simply die anyway. And that sucks.

Warbuggies: The best unit in the book for Kill Team, by far. x5 Warbuggies with Twin-Linked Rokkits will only set you back 125 Points. They can Outflank which is great for late-game, and they come with not!Dozer Blades, and they pack Twin-Linked Rokkits. It doesn't matter what you put in the other 75 Points because Warbuggies don't have Leadership and don't make Break Tests. As we know, AV10 is 'T6.5', which means that your opponent is only going to have 2-3 models that can reliably hurt your 'Buggies, and you should target those immediately. Armour Spam (yes, even AV10!) is a pretty easy win mode for KT. The problem with 'Buggies, unfortunately, is that they're a 2nd Ed. model (made for Gorkamorka) that hasn't been changed in almost two decades (1997), and are really expensive for no reason for such an ugly as sin model.

Brookshw

2016-10-12, 06:54 PM

Warbuggies: The best unit in the book for Kill Team, by far. x5 Warbuggies with Twin-Linked Rokkits will only set you back 125 Points. They can Outflank which is great for late-game, and they come with not!Dozer Blades, and they pack Twin-Linked Rokkits. It doesn't matter what you put in the other 75 Points because Warbuggies don't have Leadership and don't make Break Tests. As we know, AV10 is 'T6.5', which means that your opponent is only going to have 2-3 models that can reliably hurt your 'Buggies, and you should target those immediately. Armour Spam (yes, even AV10!) is a pretty easy win mode for KT. The problem with 'Buggies, unfortunately, is that they're a 2nd Ed. model (made for Gorkamorka) that hasn't been changed in almost two decades (1997), and are really expensive for no reason for such an ugly as sin model.

Cool, Thanks for the advise! As to the buggies, agreed they're ugly but a few land speeders and a bit box can sort out some alternatives!

Blackhawk748

2016-10-12, 07:36 PM

Cool, Thanks for the advise! As to the buggies, agreed they're ugly but a few land speeders and a bit box can sort out some alternatives!

For my Warbuggies i use Mantics Warpath Buggies, they looks sweet:

http://store.miniwargaming.com/images/P/MGWPO11-1.jpeg

Theres also a nice quad version, sadly if you want them youll have to find them on Amazon or somethingcuz Mantic is currently redoing Warpath, so the minis are getting redone.

Turalisj

2016-10-12, 11:30 PM

Does anyone have any advice on building terrain? I was thinking foam blocks shaped into what you need?

Voidhawk

2016-10-13, 02:10 AM

Lady Atia's blog (https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/) is the most reliable place to find things. She centralizes a lot of the more reliable sources.

Looking on her blog, there's a link to a New Bloodbowl Website. (http://www.bloodbowl.com/) It's got profiles on the new models for the Human, Orc, and Skaven teams, as well as returning Star Players such as Morg 'N Thorg. Apparently there's a full reveal happening at the Spiel Game Fair in Germany today.

Blackhawk748

2016-10-13, 05:47 AM

Does anyone have any advice on building terrain? I was thinking foam blocks shaped into what you need?

I dont make terrain but a buddy that does uses foam blocks and a heat knife.

LeSwordfish

2016-10-13, 05:51 AM

If you can get your hands on the old "How To Make Wargames Terrain", that's a fantastic resource for terrain construction (though by now a little out of date.)

Brookshw

2016-10-13, 06:35 AM

Does anyone have any advice on building terrain? I was thinking foam blocks shaped into what you need?

Depends what you're looking to make, buildings, hills, ruins? Foam blocks, sheet foam, plaster and various other pieces for texture are pretty common. There are many textured plasticard you can pick up online to add some more "realism" especially for buildings. Model train sites tend to have a lot of useful info and often sell practical materials.
Here are a few links I've found informative.

Hills/Crags (http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Making_Dynamic,_Craggy_Hills)
Makezine (http://makezine.com/2011/10/21/skill-builder-tabletop-gaming-modeling-tips-and-tricks/)
Woodland Scenery. (http://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/show/video/c/terrainformation)

*.*.*.*

2016-10-13, 07:46 AM

So, for a massive mutant horde, is it better to use Renegades and Heretics or the HH Warp Cults list?

Grim Portent

2016-10-13, 10:22 AM

So, for a massive mutant horde, is it better to use Renegades and Heretics or the HH Warp Cults list?

Imperial Militia and Cults is probably the best. It has the cheapest units, they can all get Zealot for a one off cost for the army, as well as army wide Rending. They don't get all the gear and gimmicks renegades get, but I would comfortably say they're better.

Requizen

2016-10-13, 10:44 AM

I dunno if it's crazy, but I'm bringing a Catacomb Command Barge to a GT this weekend. List if interested:

Decurion
Reclamation Legion
CCB: 2+/4++/Warscythe/Res Orb
Warriors x10
Warriors x10
Immortals x5
Tomb Blades x3: 3+/Ignores Cover
Tomb Blades x3: 3+/Ignores Cover

Destroyer Cult
DLord: Solar Staff/Res Orb (Warlord)
Destroyers x2, Heavy
Destroyers x2, Heavy
Destroyers x2, Heavy
Heavy Destroyers x3

Forsworn Knight Detachment
Renegade Knight: Avenger Gatling, Avenger Gatling, Meltagun

No Wraiths, no star. I ran a 3 round tourney on Sunday with Knight + Destroyers, and it performed well (better than Wraiths because I suck at rolling in assault)... but felt like it was missing something. I couldn't really fit a Canoptek Harvest in without sacrificing too much, but I could fit in a Command Barge. At worst, it draws Meltas away from the Knight for a bit. At best, it gets to things like Pathfinders or Warp Spiders and butchers them. Completely immune against Scatbikes and Warp Spiders until penned (assuming I can keep the butt covered). I generally don't like running lone vehicles, but I've also got the Knight... so it's not all that bad?

If nothing else it'll be different.

*.*.*.*

2016-10-13, 11:51 AM

Imperial Militia and Cults is probably the best. It has the cheapest units, they can all get Zealot for a one off cost for the army, as well as army wide Rending. They don't get all the gear and gimmicks renegades get, but I would comfortably say they're better.

That's what I was largely thinking as well. Thanks for the input.

Grim Portent

2016-10-13, 12:40 PM

Oh, and cults also has better psykers than Renegades do, since they use main rulebook powers and can join units.

Also better Ogryn since the milita/cult ones can take power axes and be T6 with the right option.

Bobby Baratheon

2016-10-13, 12:46 PM

Militia and cults can also get vets with S5 laslocks and a heavy weapons team with AP3 autocannons, although I'm not sure that's compatible with the cult variant. Not gamebreakers, but nice little tricks like that make it a fun list IMO.

Blackhawk748

2016-10-13, 04:37 PM

Imperial Militia and Cults is probably the best. It has the cheapest units, they can all get Zealot for a one off cost for the army, as well as army wide Rending. They don't get all the gear and gimmicks renegades get, but I would comfortably say they're better.

Eh the ability to respawn platoons is a pretty amazing ability tbh.

Grim Portent

2016-10-13, 04:52 PM

Eh the ability to respawn platoons is a pretty amazing ability tbh.

It certainly is, but Fearless Rending models with 3 Attacks on the charge for 2 ppm is scary even to Primarchs.

RyumaruMG

2016-10-13, 05:18 PM

Tvtyrant

2016-10-13, 05:22 PM

I have been thinking about using acolytes in rockgrinders as a dedicated anti-horde unit for genestealer cult. 5 acolytes with hand flamers in a rockgrinder with an incinerator, maybe give it a bomb cache for 6 templates and a large blast a turn when up close.

Drasius

2016-10-13, 05:26 PM

Blackhawk748

2016-10-13, 08:43 PM

It certainly is, but Fearless Rending models with 3 Attacks on the charge for 2 ppm is scary even to Primarchs.

Wow....thats cheap, so ya, go with that

I've recently acquired some Space Marines, and since the acquisition included a Librarian, I'm actually vaguely tempted to paint them as Blood Ravens. Problem is, I don't know what to do for their Chapter Tactics. I like the idea of using the Salamanders' rule that gives them Master-Crafted gear to represent their collection of relics and gifts, but for a second rule, I wanted something to reflect their tactical style or large numbers of Librarians, and haven't found anything to fit the bill. Does anyone have any ideas?

When in doubt, Ultramarines.

Cheesegear

2016-10-13, 09:30 PM

I've recently acquired some Space Marines, and since the acquisition included a Librarian, I'm actually vaguely tempted to paint them as Blood Ravens. Problem is, I don't know what to do for their Chapter Tactics. I like the idea of using the Salamanders' rule that gives them Master-Crafted gear to represent their collection of relics and gifts, but for a second rule, I wanted something to reflect their tactical style or large numbers of Librarians, and haven't found anything to fit the bill. Does anyone have any ideas?

Salamanders for spamming Master-Crafted gear is actually interesting. Though outside of Plasma and Grav Pistols (i.e; One shot weapons) I've never seen it actually do anything, especially since Plasma and Grav Pistols are some of the biggest wastes of points you can actually make, even if they are Master Crafted (though it absolutely helps). I've only ever seen He'Stan and spamming Combi-Meltas, but, whatever you want to do...

The best use of Blood Ravens has always been to take units out of the Grey Knights book, except that doesn't help you unless you go into it knowing what you're doing, and 'acquiring' models doesn't really feel like you get a whole lot of choice in the matter. If you are actually interested in spamming Librarians (get a Grey Knight Strike Squad box), you can always spam Conclaves, but that'll give you diminishing returns as you inevitably will double-up on Powers, and each unit can only cast a Power, once per turn.

But, you have one Librarian. Every Space Marine player and their dog runs a Librarian, regardless of Chapter Tactics. Imperial Fists have the best Librarian that isn't Tigurius, and Salamanders can take a Relic that guarantees them a better version of what is arguably the only good Pyromancy Power that isn't the Primaris. White Scars Librarians can pick up the best Power from Divination using the best Relic in the entire game, etc.

Librarians aren't something to base your army around, since every Space Marine Chapter can do it. The only thing you really get to decide that's unique-but-not-really to you, is what kind of Librarian you want.

RyumaruMG

2016-10-13, 09:40 PM

When in doubt, Ultramarines.

I have been informed that I will be given a new and profoundly uncomfortable storage space for my Marines if I use anything from the Ultra-Smurfs. My friend is not a fan of Matt Ward.

I've also considered just using Salamanders, or going full Jackass and making them Angry Marines.

For reference, the transfer sheet I have has the decals for Salamanders, Ultra-Smurfs, White Scars, or Imperial Fists (though I think these are actually Crimson Fists icons). I guess I would like to run whichever would be most fun, though it should be noted that I don't have any actual bikes for Scars.

Cheesegear

2016-10-13, 09:45 PM

I have been informed that I will be given a new and profoundly uncomfortable storage space for my Marines if I use anything from the Ultra-Smurfs. My friend is not a fan of Matt Ward.

Matt Ward is irrelavent in both the 6th and 7th Ed. Codecies. Your friend is an arse, tell him to take his outdated memes back to 2008.

I guess I would like to run whichever would be most fun, though it should be noted that I don't have any actual bikes for Scars.

You don't need Bikes to play 'Scars. White Scars have the best Chapter Tactics in the game, because Space Marines are a ranged combat army, and Hit & Run gets your Marines with Boltguns out of Melee where they don't want to be. White Scars in Drop Pods are very good. White Scars in Rhinos/Razorbacks are very good. White Scars on Bikes are very good. White Scars on foot are very good. White Scars are very good.

Blackhawk748

2016-10-13, 10:06 PM

I have been informed that I will be given a new and profoundly uncomfortable storage space for my Marines if I use anything from the Ultra-Smurfs. My friend is not a fan of Matt Ward.

Oh for f--ks sake, the fanboy is gone. The Ultramarines have returned to their 4th ed style glory. Tell him to get the feth over himself.

RyumaruMG

2016-10-13, 10:23 PM

Yes, because telling one of my friends that people on the internet told him to go jump in a lake is a great idea. :smallyuk:

Little rude, but fine, I get the point. Sorry I asked.

Cheesegear

2016-10-13, 10:26 PM

Yes, because telling one of my friends that people on the internet told him to go jump in a lake is a great idea.

No. You tell him to. If you want to play Ultramarines, then play Ultramarines. If your friend says you can't because of a Codex two editions ago, then you tell him he's an arse. We don't have anything to do with it.

RyumaruMG

2016-10-13, 10:30 PM

Blackhawk748

2016-10-13, 10:36 PM

I don't particularly want to play them, either. I'm dropping it. I just wanted to have a bit of fun while bringing up that Ultramarines aren't much of an option.

Fine, I'll rephrase - what chapters of Marines are fun? Bear in mind I'm an Ork player mainly and also have to deal with a lot of Chaos Terminators and shenanigans with Deep Striking Helbrutes.

Imperial Fists are always good, White Scars, as stated, are solid. Besides the Ultramarines my next favorite Chapter is probably Iron Hands, and they are still good.

Cheesegear

2016-10-13, 10:52 PM

Fine, I'll rephrase - what chapters of Marines are fun? Bear in mind I'm an Ork player mainly and also have to deal with a lot of Chaos Terminators and shenanigans with Deep Striking Helbrutes.

'Fun' is relative. What is it that you want to do?

Every Chapter of Marines is viable, except Black Templars. Do you have access to Angels of Death?

Ultramarines: Will give you Combat Doctrines, which is at least two turns of re-rolls To Hit for Tacticals and Devastators (and everything else), and Turn 3 will usually result in usage of the Assault Doctrine, giving you re-rolls in Melee. Ultramarines are very newbie friendly because the first two turns of the game - the most important turns of the game - are full of re-rolls. This means that Plasma weapons are actually usable, and Plasma Pistols and Grav Pistols don't totally suck - but they're still pretty bad at 15 Points. Sicarius is a force multiplier. Tigurius is one of the best Psykers in the game who also has the best Trait in the book. Cassius is a beat stick, and Telion has the same Trait as Tigurius, but isn't a Librarian. Basically, if you're Ultramarines, you can put anything on the board and it will at least do something. Another point in Ultramarines' favour is that they don't need AoD.

White Scars: Hit & Run is one of the best rules in the game, especially in what is primarily a shooty army. If you actually want to be in Melee, you actually will want to spam Bikes and Hammer of Wrath, H&Ring out and then Charging again. Above all, though. You don't need Bikes to play White Scars, they help. Bu they're not neccessary. Point is; Play White Scars if your opponent can Melee harder than you, but not if they can Ranged harder than you.

Imperial Fists: Without Angels of Death, you're spamming Sternguard and Devastators. This means Pedro Kantor. If you don't want to run Sternguard and Devastators, and Scouts in your Troops slots so your expensive Elite and Heavy choices are offset by your cheap Troops (and don't have AoD), then Imperial Fists aren't for you.

Black Templars: The 'Melee' Chapter in what is clearly a 'Ranged' Codex, and is therefore counter-intuitive and sucks. Besides, Blood Angels have Angel's Blade now. I've also seen Black Templar models used out of the Space Wolves book, but then you wont have access to Thunderwolf models and you'll lose some of the best units from the book. But your Templars will still be better than if you used them as actual Templars. Boltguns & Power Armour is transferable.

Iron Hands: Facebook FAQ says that they're supposed to spam Vehicles. Angels of Death (or just buying the cards) will also give you access to Technomancy, making Iron Hands' Conclaves even more better in Land Raiders.

Salamanders: Angels of Death makes them so much better. Otherwise you're relying on He'Stan, Master-Crafted Melta weapons and a mess-ton of Drop Pods.

Raven Guard: Unplayable without AoD - at which point they become almost broken.

RyumaruMG

2016-10-13, 11:15 PM

Forum Explorer

2016-10-13, 11:45 PM

I'll check with my friend if he has AoD, but I certainly don't. My current options are (off the top of my head) a Librarian, a Captain, a squad of Tac Marines, a squad of Termies, and a Dreadnought. I plan on investing in more Orks before more Marines, so that's going to be a factor in this. I need to get my Boyz some way to deal with those damn 'brutes. Friggin' Deep Strike.

Brutes? Beyond a Power Klaw in each squad? I think a Nob Biker squad can give everyone Power Klaws, but I can't remember the strength of the Brutes, but if it's below 10, then they won't get double tapped and can still get FNP from a Pain Boy. That's a really expensive unit though.

What's the strength of some of the Grot cannons? Besides that I think it's just Rockitt spam to take them down.

Cheesegear

2016-10-13, 11:51 PM

My current options are (off the top of my head) a Librarian, a Captain, a squad of Tac Marines, a squad of Termies, and a Dreadnought.

Sounds like Assault on Black Reach. Yeah, you'll be running Ultramarines or Imperial Fists.

I need to get my Boyz some way to deal with those damn 'brutes. Friggin' Deep Strike.

As with most small, high cost units without a trillion re-rolls to Saves, most Terminator-like units will simply die to Shootas, Lootas, and especially Flash Gitz and Shokk Attack Gunz.

Forum Explorer

2016-10-13, 11:54 PM

As with most small, high cost units without a trillion re-rolls to Saves, most Terminator-like units will simply die to Shootas, Lootas, and especially Flash Gitz and Shokk Attack Gunz.

Aren't Brutes the close combat Dreadnaughts? :smallconfused:

Cheesegear

2016-10-14, 12:01 AM

Aren't Brutes the close combat Dreadnaughts? :smallconfused:

Oh, Helbrutes!? Tankbustas and Shokk Attack Gunz. Deffkoptas (or 'Buggies) with Rokkits. If you're a brave soul, batteries of Zzap Guns can also do in a pinch, but only after you've exhausted all other options.

Drasius

2016-10-14, 03:47 AM

Oh, Helbrutes!? Tankbustas and Shokk Attack Gunz. Deffkoptas (or 'Buggies) with Rokkits. If you're a brave soul, batteries of Zzap Guns can also do in a pinch, but only after you've exhausted all other options.

Lootas should also be able to get the job done, yeah?

Drasius

2016-10-14, 04:21 AM

'Tis official.

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/Screenshot_2016-10-14-19-09-51_zpspsckpjur.png~original
http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/Screenshot_2016-10-14-19-09-18_zpshwyktjpu.png~original

I would have liked more mkIV, but I guess I can mix and match armour marks. It does mean I'll need another order of FW upgrades, might as well pick up Inferno and some grav rapiers while I'm at it.

LeSwordfish

2016-10-14, 04:25 AM

I was hoping for things like assault marines and breachers myself, but it makes sense. Looks like there'll be plenty of stuff in the box to flog though.

Tome

2016-10-14, 04:33 AM

Ooh, Sisters of Silence!

LeSwordfish

2016-10-14, 04:33 AM

In fact, it's been sighted two posts previously in this very thread.

Closet_Skeleton

2016-10-14, 04:36 AM

Anyone else doing Armies on Parade?

I've just about got my board done on time. Just need to stick on my bronze statues made from 2nd ed snap fit space marines.

Drasius

2016-10-14, 04:40 AM

I might wait for one of the lads up here to snag a box for the mkIII armour and offer to take ahriman and the termies off his hands. I've no interest in the sisters or Custodes unlike everyone else, but unfortunately the release of sisters of silence will cripple any thousand sons army before it even gets released, thereby continuing the legacy of sucking hard in every iteration they've ever been portrayed in.

Given that I was / am planning on running 15-20 assault marines with full loadout of combat shields and power weapons cause I think they look cool, I also lament the lack of assault marines in the box.

Edit :

Anyone else doing Armies on Parade?

I've just about got my board done on time. Just need to stick on my bronze statues made from 2nd ed snap fit space marines.

Yep, fortunately, I had my board and army already done back in June, so despite my hospitalisation, I managed to get my board down to my local GW and it's already set up in the #1 spot. Unfortunately I'm a retard and forgot to take a picture, so I'll wait until our blackshirt posts one for me and steal his pics.

Turalisj

2016-10-14, 04:48 AM

Anyone have a suggestion on combining the Prospero box and Calth box to make a 30k Salamanders army? There's a few people at the shop already doing 30k.

LeSwordfish

2016-10-14, 05:10 AM

Anyone else doing Armies on Parade?

I've just about got my board done on time. Just need to stick on my bronze statues made from 2nd ed snap fit space marines.

I'm a reserve for my store (there's always a few drop-outs, apparently), so i'm going to just take along my favourite converted characters and my knight in case there's a drop-out.

Cheesegear

2016-10-14, 05:43 AM

Anyone else doing Armies on Parade?

I've been doing mine for the last month, and then it all turned to **** when my display board was moved without telling me. My board was put in such a place where it caught the full force of the 11am-2pm sun, my display board warped to ****, and as I learned last year, it's pointless to enter without a board. So my Deathwatch Sternguard and Vanguard with Deathwatch shoulder pads will not be making an appearance. Some of you may have already seen some of the individual models (e.g; The Deathwatch Land Speeder), but my board is completely ruined and I did...Freak out.

By the time I managed to un-f*** my board, well, it's Friday night on the day before due. So...Yeah.

Drasius

2016-10-14, 06:41 AM

I've been doing mine for the last month, and then it all turned to **** when my display board was moved without telling me. My board was put in such a place where it caught the full force of the 11am-2pm sun, my display board warped to ****, and as I learned last year, it's pointless to enter without a board. So my Deathwatch Sternguard and Vanguard with Deathwatch shoulder pads will not be making an appearance. Some of you may have already seen some of the individual models (e.g; The Deathwatch Land Speeder), but my board is completely ruined and I did...Freak out.

By the time I managed to un-f*** my board, well, it's Friday night on the day before due. So...Yeah.

A) that happened to one of the blackshirts down in radelaide before a tournament, one side of the board curled up at a 90 degree angle in the afternoon heat. The price we pay to live in a country where bitumen roads have a liquid form for a few hours every day during summer.

B) the 2014 winner of Australia did his board starting the night before. Man up and get it done!

Blackhawk748

2016-10-14, 09:19 AM

Oh, Helbrutes!? Tankbustas and Shokk Attack Gunz. Deffkoptas (or 'Buggies) with Rokkits. If you're a brave soul, batteries of Zzap Guns can also do in a pinch, but only after you've exhausted all other options.

Well you could just use regular Kannons, though i prefer Kustom Mega Kannons myself.

Grim Portent

2016-10-14, 09:42 AM

Blackhawk748

2016-10-14, 09:52 AM

How do people think genestealer abberrants would do if paired with an iconward? Abberrants aren't bulky, so you can fit a full unit of 8 into a Goliath with room for characters, and the iconward buffs their FnP to 4+, rather obviously the intended combo. By no means tough, but I could see them being a rather nasty brick to smack into a unit of crisis suits or light vehicles.

It depends, how much S6 are you running into? Cuz thats what murdilates them, now if you can crash them into a unit thats got S5 or worse, then ya, they'll work ok.

LeSwordfish

2016-10-14, 09:54 AM

Also the usual caveat that against Str8 they get Instant Death'd without any Feel No Pain.

Grim Portent

2016-10-14, 10:50 AM

It depends, how much S6 are you running into? Cuz thats what murdilates them, now if you can crash them into a unit thats got S5 or worse, then ya, they'll work ok.

Think you mean S8/S7 since they're T4. S6 doesn't really do anything to them S5 doesn't.

In general I'd be looking to have them hunt plasma toting crisis suits (Farsight bomb to be more precise) and grav toting units used by the space marines in my local club, none of which hurt them spectacularly well, what with a 5+ save and 4+ FnP. I'd be tempted to add a magos to the unit as well to try and get some biomancy on the unit.

Blackhawk748

2016-10-14, 11:23 AM

Think you mean S8/S7 since they're T4. S6 doesn't really do anything to them S5 doesn't.

In general I'd be looking to have them hunt plasma toting crisis suits (Farsight bomb to be more precise) and grav toting units used by the space marines in my local club, none of which hurt them spectacularly well, what with a 5+ save and 4+ FnP. I'd be tempted to add a magos to the unit as well to try and get some biomancy on the unit.

You are correct, i forgot. They should work at that, but personally (and if IIRC the powers that a Magos can roll for) id go for Telepathy and Invis, but thats just me.

Drasius

2016-10-15, 03:32 AM

Unfortunately I'm a retard and forgot to take a picture, so I'll wait until our blackshirt posts one for me and steal his pics.

As promised ;
http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/FB_IMG_1476519603230_zpsuxec8zir.jpg~original
http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/FB_IMG_1476519616158_zpstvngap6r.jpg~original

No awards unfortunately, but the competition was stiff and my board was meant as one capable of travel for tournament purposes, so I never really expected more than to be on display. One somewhat disappointing thing was that one of the entries from last year managed to win this year. While it's a bit of an indictment of the quality of this year's entries that none of them could beat something everyone has already seen (even if it was extremely impressive), to me it's poor form to enter the same display in multiple (let alone consecutive) years.

Am I in error playgrounders? Do you consider it poor form to enter armies on parade with the same display board and army multiple times?

Closet_Skeleton

2016-10-15, 01:28 PM

That's a lot of Tau Armour. Not what I usually expect.

I need to wait for someone to upload mine because I forgot a camera.

Am I in error playgrounders? Do you consider it poor form to enter armies on parade with the same display board and army multiple times?

Yes.

Re-using some of the models is probably alright, re-using the board with a different army might make me grumble but I can't complain that much.

The winner in our store had entered last year with his army unfinished but made the board and did most of the army afterwards.

and as I learned last year, it's pointless to enter without a board.

The third place guy in our store didn't have a board. But I think most of the votes went to the number one and two places.

Brookshw

2016-10-15, 04:35 PM

I got to thinking about warhammer quest, or at least an older edition of it, and was wondering why there isn't really a 40k equivalent. Granted there are multiple smaller scale versions of 40k such as space hulk, lost patrol, etc, but I don't really consider any of them analogous to 40k in the same way quest is to Warhammer Fantasy. I'm i simply wrong or unaware of modern parallels or a more analagous product?

Forum Explorer

2016-10-15, 04:52 PM

Am I in error playgrounders? Do you consider it poor form to enter armies on parade with the same display board and army multiple times?

On one hand yes, but on the other hand no. I mean, I wouldn't complain if they repainted it, and I wouldn't complain if they did minor fixes to improve on past mistakes, so what essentially is the difference?

But if they won, and then resubmitted the exact same army? Okay, I'd have a problem with that.

Cheesegear

2016-10-15, 07:55 PM

Am I in error playgrounders? Do you consider it poor form to enter armies on parade with the same display board and army multiple times?

Extremely. That'd be like a movie that didn't win a GG or Oscar, just simply tried again the next year.

The third place guy in our store didn't have a board. But I think most of the votes went to the number one and two places.

Third place in my store also won without a board...Because his entire family came in and voted for his **** (I'm not swearing for effect, it was actually really bad).

Grim Portent

2016-10-16, 10:37 AM

Just had a lovely little game of Superheavies vs Superheavies. A bunch of us got together and formed two roughly equal teams of superheavies and had a quick clash.

Chaos team had 6 Knights, 5 renegade and 1 chaos as well as a Lord of Skulls.

Order had 4 Knights, a Baneblade, a Shadowsword and a Tau Stormsurge.

The Stormsurge, Baneblade and a couple of Chaos Knights were more or less useless, all being built for anti-infantry roles rather than anti-tank. Two rapid fire battlecannons don't do a whole lot in a Knight fight.

The Lord of Skulls put in a lot of work though. Over the course of the battle it killed a Knight, the Baneblade and the Stormsurge. At a guess I'd attribute it to the sheer number of attacks it gets as time goes by. It had 5 attacks against it's first enemy, the Knight which had charged it, had 7 against the Baneblade when it assaulted it the following turn, and 11 when it assaulted the Stormsurge. I can't ever see myself getting one of my own, I'd rather have Kytans, but the Lord of Skulls does seem pretty beasty in battles against other superheavies.

Cheesegear

2016-10-16, 07:15 PM

I'd rather have Kytans, but the Lord of Skulls does seem pretty beasty in battles against other superheavies.

...

The Stormsurge, Baneblade and a couple of Chaos Knights were more or less useless

...The Lord of Skulls works really great when half the things on the board can't even hurt it! What a great model! :smallsigh:

In a scenario where the Lord of Skulls is designed to win, of course it's going to be great. It's got 9 Hull Points and a 5++ and gets better as it dies. Unfortunately, in a real game, it's 888 Points, is basically unplayable, lives in a world where Eldar players have two or more Wraithknights on the board, Space Marines have Drop Melta, and Necrons will fire 40-50 Gauss shots at it per turn. So...Yeah.

Drasius

2016-10-16, 08:40 PM

Alleged stats for Custodes and sisters of silence;

Custodes:
ws6, bs4, s5, t5, w2, i5, a3, ld10, 2+/4++.
hatred, furious charge, rampage.

Sisters:
ws5, bs4, s3, t3, w1, i5, a2, ld10, 2+.
Preferred enemy (psykers), hatred (psykers)
furious charge and a pariah blade which inflicts ID on any model with the psyker special rule and otherwise is ap3.
they will have the pariah rule meaning they can never be the target of any psychic power. and all psychic powers cease to be in effect within 6″ of the unit

Tehnar

2016-10-17, 02:05 AM

Cheesegear

2016-10-17, 02:51 AM

Alleged stats for Custodes and sisters of silence;

I'll reserve judgement until I see points costs. The closest equivalent to Custodes that I can think of, are Wulfen, which kick nine kinds of ass, due to the combo-ific nature with other units in the Codex ('Claw units, and Thunderwolves), and the fact that their no-tax Formation is balls-to-the-wall awesome. I just don't see what Custodes are bringing to the table. As mentioned, Space Wolves already have Wulfen, and Blood Angels already have Death Company and Sanguinary Guard with Jump Packs and no walking.

I don't know what Custodes are supposed to bring to the table for AoI, except, y'know...The cool models, which will sell even if they aren't competitive because nostalgia boner. I can't believe people bought the Deathwatch Watch Commander, it's so terrible on the table, but the model is cool. :smallsigh:

Sisters are T3, and just from alleged rules, can't be made Invisible and you wont be able to stick Endurance on them, which means that they're automatically full of fail, as far as Melee units go. Again, if they're only 14 Points a model, I'll take back everything and they're great. But if they're 25+ (which I have to assume, simply because of how highly GW rates 2+ armour with no Invulnerables for no reason), they'll be basically unusable. Although, I can see them being used in a Sororitas army as a replacement unit for Repentia, since Sisters of Silence will perform in the same role except nowhere near as terrible.

Forum Explorer

2016-10-17, 02:58 AM

Pulled my Dark Eldar out for some games today.

CAD
HQ

Drazhar Master of Blades: 190

Elites

4 Incubi with Klaivex: 90
Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons: 65

5 Incubi with Klaivex: 110
Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons: 65

10 Mandrakes with Nightfiend: 130

Troops

10 Warriors with Sybarite with Splinter Cannon and a Blaster: 120
Raider with Dark Lance: 60

10 Warriors with Sybarite with Splinter Cannon and a Blaster: 120
Raider with Dark Lance: 60

10 Warriors with Sybarite with Splinter Cannon and a Blaster: 120
Raider with Dark Lance: 60

10 Warriors with Sybarite with Splinter Cannon and a Blaster: 120
Raider with Dark Lance: 60

Fast Attack

Razorwing with 2 Dark Lances, Night Shields, and Necrotoxin Missiles: 155

6 Reavers with Arena Champion with Agonizer, and 2 Cluster Caltrops: 161

6 Reavers with Arena Champion with Agonizer, and 2 Cluster Caltrops: 161

Total: 1847

And remember how I was talking about how winning with Dark Eldar felt amazing because they were so much harder to win with? Well I went up against 2 different players today.

Approximate List

Samuel with the Jetbike

Interrogator-Chaplin

2 units of snipers

2 units of Black Knights with plasma guns

2 units of bikes with melta/plasma guns

1 Darkshroud (whatever the Landspeeder that gives Stealth is called)

4 Landspeeders with 2 Assualt cannons and meltas + a Darkshroud variant that has a lot of guns instead

and

Approximate List

5 units of 3 man scatbike squads

3 Warlocks in a Conclave on jetbikes

1 Farseer on jetbike

1 Vyper

1 Venom with 5 warriors

5 Wraithguard with D-scythes

1 Archon with Webway portal and Armor of Agony

1 Crimson Hunter

1 Wraithknight

And I basically tabled both of them. So needless to say, I've had a good day. :smallbiggrin:

Voidhawk

2016-10-17, 03:38 AM

Cheesegear

2016-10-17, 04:46 AM

[A Dark Angel List with no Allies or Relentless Banner]

As I've mentioned before, some of us can determine the winner of a game based on army lists alone. Yours, isn't bad. The Dark Angels, is. I hate to burst your bubble, but if that's what the Dark Angel player was running, it's not very good. You actually had a shot at winning, if that was his list. Which is fair, casuals gonna casual.

But, Voidhawk's want for a battle report (what Mission did you play, who went first, was it Night Fight, how were the dice rolls at critical moments, pilot mistakes, etc.) isn't a bad idea. Given that Incubi don't have Grenades, I'm actually really curious as to how you beat Black Knights, especially since they have Skilled Rider, and, therefore unlike other Bikes, actually will be in terrain that you have to Charge through...Unless, of course, he didn't have his Bikes in terrain for no reason (Skilled Rider is for winners), and that comes back to player mistakes and how I also would really like a battle report.

I don't doubt that you won. But I want to know how you won, because everyone and their dog says Dark Eldar is the worst book in the game; You either need to be real good at the game (i.e; Not a new player), lucky, or your opponent just has to be bad at making decisions. I just know that if I took your Dark Eldar list into my 'casually competitive' meta, I would get rolled, and my meta isn't even that competitive.

Eldar List

Just looking at the list, you shouldn't have won. Unless you're really, really good at the game (I hope so), or your opponent was just bad/unlucky. But, then again, I see an Webway Star, without an Autarch (i.e; A list-building error), so I don't know what happened.

I'm pretty sure the reason it feels so good to win with Dark Eldar is because you shouldn't win, and you do...Somehow. More information is needed.
Essentially; Can I replicate what you did in my own meta? Or do the stars need to align perfectly?

Drasius

2016-10-17, 09:25 AM

...remember how I was talking about how winning with Dark Eldar felt amazing because they were so much harder to win with? Well I went up against 2 different players today.
...
And I basically tabled both of them. So needless to say, I've had a good day. :smallbiggrin:

Well done! Any possibility of writing a battle-report of it?

As I've mentioned before, some of us can determine the winner of a game based on army lists alone.
...
I also would really like a battle report.

I don't doubt that you won. But I want to know how you won, because everyone and their dog says Dark Eldar is the worst book in the game; You either need to be real good at the game (i.e; Not a new player), lucky, or your opponent just has to be bad at making decisions. I just know that if I took your Dark Eldar list into my 'casually competitive' meta, I would get rolled, and my meta isn't even that competitive.

Just looking at the list, you shouldn't have won. Unless you're really, really good at the game (I hope so), or your opponent was just bad/unlucky. But, then again, I see an Webway Star, without an Autarch (i.e; A list-building error), so I don't know what happened.

I'm pretty sure the reason it feels so good to win with Dark Eldar is because you shouldn't win, and you do...Somehow. More information is needed.
Essentially; Can I replicate what you did in my own meta? Or do the stars need to align perfectly?

All of this.

Congrats on the wins, and another request for batreps. I'd love to run a DE army with boats, bikes, incubi and a razorwing, so some ideas on how to make it work would be great.

Drasius

2016-10-17, 09:41 AM

Although, I can see them being used in a Sororitas army as a replacement unit for Repentia, since Sisters of Silence will perform in the same role except nowhere near as terrible.

Repentia are for getting shot to pieces by literally anything because they have literally no save except their 6++ on T3 1W models and no assault transports hunting superheavies because a handful of str6 armourbane attacks do a fair crack of damage when they get to swing.
Plus, repentia are meant to be almost naked and SoS are armoured as befits their 2+ save. Celestians, maybe, but not repentia, even if anyone was silly enough to run either of them.

LeSwordfish

2016-10-17, 10:20 AM

I'm rather hoping the Sisters are independent characters: the idea being that you can cover a nice wide area with their null fields.

Forum Explorer

2016-10-17, 12:39 PM

Well done! Any possibility of writing a battle-report of it? As you've seen most posters here have a very low impression of Dark Eldar, so a demonstration of what a game going well looks like would be very useful. Especially so there's something to link new players to.

As I've mentioned before, some of us can determine the winner of a game based on army lists alone. Yours, isn't bad. The Dark Angels, is. I hate to burst your bubble, but if that's what the Dark Angel player was running, it's not very good. You actually had a shot at winning, if that was his list. Which is fair, casuals gonna casual.

But, Voidhawk's want for a battle report (what Mission did you play, who went first, was it Night Fight, how were the dice rolls at critical moments, pilot mistakes, etc.) isn't a bad idea. Given that Incubi don't have Grenades, I'm actually really curious as to how you beat Black Knights, especially since they have Skilled Rider, and, therefore unlike other Bikes, actually will be in terrain that you have to Charge through...Unless, of course, he didn't have his Bikes in terrain for no reason (Skilled Rider is for winners), and that comes back to player mistakes and how I also would really like a battle report.

I don't doubt that you won. But I want to know how you won, because everyone and their dog says Dark Eldar is the worst book in the game; You either need to be real good at the game (i.e; Not a new player), lucky, or your opponent just has to be bad at making decisions. I just know that if I took your Dark Eldar list into my 'casually competitive' meta, I would get rolled, and my meta isn't even that competitive.

Just looking at the list, you shouldn't have won. Unless you're really, really good at the game (I hope so), or your opponent was just bad/unlucky. But, then again, I see an Webway Star, without an Autarch (i.e; A list-building error), so I don't know what happened.

I'm pretty sure the reason it feels so good to win with Dark Eldar is because you shouldn't win, and you do...Somehow. More information is needed.
Essentially; Can I replicate what you did in my own meta? Or do the stars need to align perfectly?

The Dark Angel player is a purist. He never, ever takes allies, not for or with anything. It's a school of thought in my meta (I'm one of them), cause I know someone came up to me and told me he was proud of me for playing pure Dark Eldar.

All of this.

Congrats on the wins, and another request for batreps. I'd love to run a DE army with boats, bikes, incubi and a razorwing, so some ideas on how to make it work would be great.

Sure, but it was basically a fair bit of luck, combined with punishing some bad tactical decisions on my opponents part

He decided to outflank with his army, it'll all arrive on turn 2 automatically. But the only thing he has on the board are his snipers (and the Chaplin), which he is hidden deep in his deployment zone in two different ruins (We're playing hammer and Anvil)

I steal the initiative, and he's forgotten how fast Dark Eldar are. I spend turn 1 turn turbo boosting closer, and turn two having my Incubi and Reavers tear the snipers apart. He's got nothing left, so a tabled victory for me. :smalltongue:

All I needed was stealing the initiative for luck, but the bigger part was the underestimating how fast I could get across the board.

I got first turn again (didn't steal, just had it normally), and he had some really bad luck. I killed 8 of his Scatbikes, his Warlock Conclave, and his Farseer ran off the table. His Swooping Hawks didn't show up til they came in automatically, his Crimson Hunter was a turn late, and he really couldn't make a 3+ that wasn't on his Wraithknight. But that was to be expected since he was using bases without models :smallwink:

Bad tactic wise, he placed his Wraithknight on the opposite flank of the rest of his army, so I sent my Reavers into the middle of his remaining Scatbikes forcing him to spend a turn shooting at them and nothing else. Then I spent the rest of the game kiting his Wraithknight. (Which he didn't run) He refused to use his Warp Spiders against my tanks, letting them get stuck against my one remaining Reaver, and just sort of hiding in the back. He killed a Raider with his Wraithknight, but didn't follow up on the guys inside.

In short, I doubt you'd be able to replicate this in your meta Cheesegear, the players made some really big tactical blunders, and I still needed to get some luck to pull it off.

LeSwordfish

2016-10-17, 01:31 PM

I steal the initiative, and he's forgotten how fast Dark Eldar are. I spend turn 1 turn turbo boosting closer, and turn two having my Incubi and Reavers tear the snipers apart. He's got nothing left, so a tabled victory for me. :smalltongue:

Sadly, this doesn't work. The check for (if no models on table > you lose) is at the end of the Game Turn, not the player turn - so his reserves arrive at the start of his turn two, since the end of the game turn isn't until the end of that.

Forum Explorer

2016-10-17, 01:43 PM

Sadly, this doesn't work. The check for (if no models on table > you lose) is at the end of the Game Turn, not the player turn - so his reserves arrive at the start of his turn two, since the end of the game turn isn't until the end of that.

Really? That's weird that no one in my area has noticed that.

Renegade Paladin

2016-10-17, 04:00 PM

Third place in my store also won without a board...Because his entire family came in and voted for his **** (I'm not swearing for effect, it was actually really bad).
The last painting competition held at the shop here was won by a guy who organized his entire damn town to vote for his entry; like, he just ran away with it. I couldn't even tell what the heck I was supposed to be looking at, either.

Grim Portent

2016-10-17, 04:34 PM

After a stint of time in which I've had no money to spend on the hobby side of things I have finally managed to get the new Kharn model. :smallbiggrin:

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s480x480/14639597_1204531286287131_5449993912996733406_n.jp g?oh=96250245a93706249fb7a0882a4d38f6&oe=5892D316

Made some slight modifications to his chains, replacing the spiked weights with hooks and skulls, just because I feel hooks look more evil and chaosy.

Drasius

2016-10-17, 05:44 PM

Nice Kharn there GP.

Alleged rules for the 30k custodes;
55 points per model, with a starting squad cost of 125 for three.(Horus Heresy rules from november's white dwarf)
WS5 BS5 S5 T5 A2 W2 with a 2+/5++ armour save.
The guardian spear is a S User/+1 AP 3/2 with the alternate profile applying on the charge and a special rule which causes it to generate an additional hit on a to-hit roll of six. It also comes with an inbuilt S4 AP 4 assault 2 bolter with range 18".
The Custodes Armour gives them move through cover.
And the Custodes themselves have a special rule which extends their cohesion range to 3" rather than 2" and another which increases them to WS 6 when fighting opponents with equal or less WS than them.
They also have a sword and shield option which uses an elite choice. Those guys get a 4++ save which is rerollable under a certain circumstance and they have a power sword with rending and an inbuilt bolt weapon with a special rule called hail of fire.

55 ppm compares reasonably well against specialty legion terminators IIRC. A statline full of 5's, 2W, option of a 4++, a host of special rules. They might even be usable as long as they can be stuffed into a Spartan. As cool as the spears look however, the limitation of only being ap2 on the charge means that the rending swords (with the 4++) might be the better option.

Voidhawk

2016-10-18, 02:06 AM

Really? That's weird that no one in my area has noticed that.

Page 133 of the rulebook, "Sudden Death Victory", third paragraph.

Forum Explorer

2016-10-18, 02:19 AM

Page 133 of the rulebook, "Sudden Death Victory", third paragraph.

I believe you, it's just weird that no one has mentioned it before at my store. And the guy I was playing against has been playing for a long time too. Oh well, as mistaken as we were, we were both playing by the same rules.

Cheesegear

2016-10-18, 04:08 AM

The Dark Angel player is a purist. He never, ever takes allies, not for or with anything. It's a school of thought in my meta (I'm one of them), cause I know someone came up to me and told me he was proud of me for playing pure Dark Eldar.

Cool. So, hard tiers of Codecies, then? :smallsigh:
From a Collector's standpoint, I get it. But it totally sucks when you get to the table.

it'll all arrive on turn 2 automatically.
[...]
He's got nothing left, so a tabled victory for me.

As previously mentioned, everything he owned should have come on on Turn 2, since the check is at the end of the Game Turn. In any case, this is definitely grounds for a rematch since your misreading of the rules meant that your opponent never got a Turn 2, which is the whole reason that that Detachment is even playable, because you don't roll on Turn 2, your Dark Angel stuff just comes on, and you can't get tabled (at least until Turn 3).

Either you're both bad at reading, or your opponent has net-listed without realizing what it is that makes the Dark Angels auto-arriving on Turn 2 so good...Or a combination of both. Either way, something that would not have happened in my meta.

[Eldar Game]
But that was to be expected since he was using bases without models :smallwink:

wat

letting [Warp Spiders] get stuck against my one remaining Reaver, and just sort of hiding in the back.

Warp Spiders can Hit & Run on I5. They should never be in combat with anything because their guns are so good. Unless you're like me, and Kor'sarro rolls a '6' for his Initiative check three turns in a row. :smallsigh:

Drasius

2016-10-18, 07:50 AM

Unless you're like me, and Kor'sarro rolls a '6' for his Initiative check three turns in a row. :smallsigh:

To be fair though, you deserve it since you run one of the yellowest white scars armies I've ever seen.

The amount of people who suddenly decided that they were actually running a white scars successor chapter all along disgusts me a little, and it's even worse when those people argue that changing codex chapters (that they've been collecting for years) is totally different to the codex hopping that was at its height at the end of 5th with the sudden emergence of many oddly coloured SW/BA/GK armies. If you are a professional cheesemonger who lives only for tournament glory, that's all well and good and expected to a certain extent, but for fluff players and collectors to give in to the lure of the new shiny makes me sad.

bluntpencil

2016-10-18, 08:05 AM

To be fair though, you deserve it since you run one of the yellowest white scars armies I've ever seen.

The amount of people who suddenly decided that they were actually running a white scars successor chapter all along disgusts me a little, and it's even worse when those people argue that changing codex chapters (that they've been collecting for years) is totally different to the codex hopping that was at its height at the end of 5th with the sudden emergence of many oddly coloured SW/BA/GK armies. If you are a professional cheesemonger who lives only for tournament glory, that's all well and good and expected to a certain extent, but for fluff players and collectors to give in to the lure of the new shiny makes me sad.

Personally, I'd be just fine with this within reason.

If someone wanted their Dark Eldar, which suck, to count as Eldar, I'd be very happy to allow them the chance to actually win.

Likewise, if someone else wanted to use X First Company Veterans as Deathwatch or whatever, more power to him.

Brookshw

2016-10-18, 08:58 AM

Drasius

2016-10-18, 09:34 AM

Can't you hand out armourbane to a ranged weapon? If so, then stick it on a warrior with a devoured/deathspitter. If it's melee only, then stick it on a warrior with scything talons I guess.

I don't think that you really need more than the 3 warriors for synapse, especially since the zoey doesn't work right due to brotherhood of psychers. Perhaps consider trading it for a hive guard? Str8 ap4 ignores cover isn't terrible against vehicles and as Cheese always tells us, ignores cover ap4 is the meta. Being high toughness multiple wounds and coming with ignore cover stock, the only downside is bs3.
Unless armourbane is in the same pool as ignores cover, then a warrior with a barbed strangler and ignores cover wouldn't be the worst thing ever. Also leaves a warrior to be your warlord and maybe pick up eternal warrior to go with the fearless he already has if he's lucky.

Cheesegear

2016-10-18, 10:23 AM

Thinking about Nid kill teams

Warriors (x3); Venom Cannon - 100 Points
Termagants (x10) - 40 Points
Venomthrope - 45 Points

This is your building block, with the last 15 Points in your list used to grab more 'Gants, Rending Claws or two on the Warriors, or trade the Venomthrope for a Zoan. I've heard the argument about giving your Warrior Leader a pair of Boneswords, but I prefer two Warriors with Rending Claws, each. 15 Points is also enough to get you x3 Spore Mines, which isn't a bad idea at all. The Venom Canon, being AP4, Blast, is a prime candidate for your Ignores Cover Specialist, while Warriors are Fearless and don't take Break Tests, remembering that Warriors will also make everyone within 12" Fearless, and you should never, ever take a Break Test. A Warrior Leader who rolls #5 on his Leader Trait would really like FNP or Eternal Warrior.

A major problem with Tyranids is that Vehicle busting in the Codex is almost exclusively done by your MCs, none of which are quite allowed in Kill Team. Which means taking that Zoan or a Hive Guard.

Warriors (x3); Venom Cannon - 100 Points
Termagants (x10) - 40 Points
Hive Guard; Shockcannon - 60 Points - 55 Points

You've still got the Ingores Cover Venom Cannon, and also a second AP4, Ignores Cover weapon on the Hive Guard.

Last, but certainly not least, never - ever - underestimate what x3<6 Spore Mines (15<30 Points) can do in Kill Team. However, do remember that they will count as models, and if your opponent starts destroying them, you'll lose the Break The Enemy VP, even though everything that 'Nids put on the board should be Fearless.

Lictors (x3) - 150 Points
Termagants (x10) - 40 Points

Can work depending on your meta, but you're really, really banking on your Lictors to do...Anything, since you wont have Synapse which means <half the time your Termagants aren't going to do anything, and without your Fearless aura you're falling like Dominos to Break Tests.

Brookshw

2016-10-18, 10:45 AM

Can't you hand out armourbane to a ranged weapon? If so, then stick it on a warrior with a devoured/deathspitter. If it's melee only, then stick it on a warrior with scything talons I guess. There's a disappointing small amount of armorbane for tyranids sadly though there are some decent haywire sources.

I don't think that you really need more than the 3 warriors for synapse Probably not though this brings a Kill Team question to mind, can you break up a brood for Kill team and take less than the normal amount, i.e., only buy 2 warriors rather than 3? I assume that's a no-no but am not really sure, still need to make time to pick up the book and read it.

Perhaps consider trading it for a hive guard? Str8 ap4 ignores cover isn't terrible against vehicles and as Cheese always tells us, ignores cover ap4 is the meta. Being high toughness multiple wounds and coming with ignore cover stock, the only downside is bs3. Good stuff and I see Cheese has also weighed in here with some good thoughts on the Hive Guard so I'll give it some thought and see if picking one up is in the cards before this Saturday.

Both pieces of advice have me wondering about the barbed strangler w/ ignore cover, large blast wouldn't hurt anything though point wise it would be getting pretty tight.

Drasius

2016-10-18, 10:51 AM

Hive Guard; Shockcannon - 60 Points

You'd pay 5 points for the shock cannon? Seeing that the maximum armour that you will face is 11/12, wouldn't the second shot, ignore cover and ap4 on the impaler be better, especially since many kill team vehicles are skimmers?

Cheesegear

2016-10-18, 10:57 AM

Probably not though this brings a Kill Team question to mind, can you break up a brood for Kill team and take less than the normal amount

No. The minimum is the minimum.

Both pieces of advice have me wondering about the barbed strangler w/ ignore cover, large blast wouldn't hurt anything though point wise it would be getting pretty tight.

Ignores Cover anything is worth taking in some capacity. There are a bunch of models in the format that are going to try and get a 2+ Cover Save - even your own Venomthrope-hugging Warriors. If you've got anything that can take away a 2+ Cover Save, it's worth taking, even if they do fall back on 4+ or even 3+ Armour, because 4+ and 3+ are not 2+. But, at the end of the day, Venom Cannons are AP4, and Barbed Stranglers are not, and they're the same points.

Anything that causes Pinning is normally invaluable in the Tyranid army (Template weapons can't shoot/Overwatch anymore), unfortunately, Pinning requires an unsaved wound for the test, which means that pretty much everything in the format that is going to take an unsaved wound, is probably dead before the Pinning test even happens. Therefore, Barbed Stranglers are not helpful in Kill Team, because AP5 isn't the same as AP4. If you're taking a Barbed Strangler, you'll need a Hive Guard with Impaler Cannon.

You'd pay 5 points for the shock cannon? Seeing that the maximum armour that you will face is 11/12, wouldn't the second shot, ignore cover and ap4 on the impaler be better, especially since many kill team vehicles are skimmers?

My post has been edited. Impaler Cannons are for winners. Shockcannons are bad.

LeSwordfish

2016-10-18, 11:36 AM

Adrastos42

2016-10-18, 11:49 AM

Speaking of kill team, I'm looking at going to a tournament soonish where you get to pick your leader trait, and it stays the same for the duration. I assume that, fearless lists aside, giving my leader Zealot is always going to be the right choice?

PRE-POST EDIT: I've just re-read the break test rule and it calls for a leadership test, which neither Zealot or Fearless allow you to automatically pass. Fearless is specifically named in the break tests rule as allowing an automatic pass; Zealot is not. Don't make my mistake, choose result 5 and give your leader Fearless.

Also, Cheesegear, I noticed these two guides aren't in the first post:
Kill Team Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21252937&postcount=1293)
Genestealer Cults guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21262152&postcount=1336)

Forum Explorer

2016-10-18, 12:15 PM

As previously mentioned, everything he owned should have come on on Turn 2, since the check is at the end of the Game Turn. In any case, this is definitely grounds for a rematch since your misreading of the rules meant that your opponent never got a Turn 2, which is the whole reason that that Detachment is even playable, because you don't roll on Turn 2, your Dark Angel stuff just comes on, and you can't get tabled (at least until Turn 3).

Either you're both bad at reading, or your opponent has net-listed without realizing what it is that makes the Dark Angels auto-arriving on Turn 2 so good...Or a combination of both. Either way, something that would not have happened in my meta.

wat

Warp Spiders can Hit & Run on I5. They should never be in combat with anything because their guns are so good. Unless you're like me, and Kor'sarro rolls a '6' for his Initiative check three turns in a row. :smallsigh:

That one. We both thought that being tabled was a loss at the end of the Player Turn, not Game Turn. Neither of us even bothered to look it up we were so certain. So yeah, certainly rematch worthy.

He hadn't finished building all his jetbikes, so he just plopped down some empty bases. That is the worst form of luck.

I know. That's why I said he let them get stuck. I even asked if he was going to Hit and Run and he said no.

Drasius

2016-10-18, 12:25 PM

While we're doing Kill Team questions, if you give a model Infiltrate as a specialist skill, can you really use that to infiltrate a Dedicated Transport as well? And can that transport then be full of people without Infiltrate?

Don't you have to deploy your non-infiltrating squad before you put the infiltrating squad member and the dedicated transport down during the infiltrate step? If so, the non-infiltrating squaddies can't declare that they are starting in their transport as it's not on the table yet. If that's right, you'd have to choose who the transport belonged to pregame and either deploy it normally and have only the infiltrate specialist infiltrating or the transport could infiltrate with the infiltration specialist but the other lads would have to hoof it.

That's my read and how I would rule it as a TO, but check with yours as everyone interprets things differently and the GW rules team isn't known for their ability to be clear on wording as the recent 8th ed alpha rule set 3,000'ish question FAQ questions show.

Adrastos42

2016-10-18, 01:38 PM

Don't you have to deploy your non-infiltrating squad before you put the infiltrating squad member and the dedicated transport down during the infiltrate step? If so, the non-infiltrating squaddies can't declare that they are starting in their transport as it's not on the table yet. If that's right, you'd have to choose who the transport belonged to pregame and either deploy it normally and have only the infiltrate specialist infiltrating or the transport could infiltrate with the infiltration specialist but the other lads would have to hoof it.

That's my read and how I would rule it as a TO, but check with yours as everyone interprets things differently and the GW rules team isn't known for their ability to be clear on wording as the recent 8th ed alpha rule set 3,000'ish question FAQ questions show.

We've literally just established that I'm bad at reading rules, but after re-reading the infiltrate rule, that's how I'd rule it as well.

Lost Demiurge

2016-10-18, 03:45 PM

Thinking about Nid kill teams

1x Zoanthrope
3x Warriors
12 x Termagants, 3 devourer

Tempted though to swap out the Zoanthrope for a Venomthrope to give shrouded and use the gants for screening though this would leave little for dealing with vehicles unless I dropped a few gants for a venom cannon or some deathspitters maybe.

Thoughts?

It's a good base. I'd drop the devourers and a couple of the termagants to bling out your warriors. Like Cheese suggested, a venom cannon is worth its weight in gold in kill team.

I usually run four warriors and a zoanthrope, and I usually kick a good amount of butt. Don't always win, but it's usually been a loss of a point or two at most. The zoanthrope's 3+ invulnerable save is beastly, and the rending claws on my warriors rip things up pretty well.

Been contemplating dropping the zoanthrope for a hive guard, but it's a tough call. Giving up that 3+ invulnerable is haaaaaaaard....

Drasius

2016-10-18, 05:35 PM

It's a good base. I'd drop the devourers and a couple of the termagants to bling out your warriors. Like Cheese suggested, a venom cannon is worth its weight in gold in kill team.

I usually run four warriors and a zoanthrope, and I usually kick a good amount of butt. Don't always win, but it's usually been a loss of a point or two at most. The zoanthrope's 3+ invulnerable save is beastly, and the rending claws on my warriors rip things up pretty well.

Been contemplating dropping the zoanthrope for a hive guard, but it's a tough call. Giving up that 3+ invulnerable is haaaaaaaard....

Why are people even bothering to fire at the zoey when they have warriors to kill? Less save, ignorable save, more threat at range and more threat in CC. Are they that scared of warp lance?

You could run 3 warriors, a hive guard, a zoey and have 5 points left for 1 warrior to have a better gun or rending claws?

Lost Demiurge

2016-10-18, 07:52 PM

Why are people even bothering to fire at the zoey when they have warriors to kill? Less save, ignorable save, more threat at range and more threat in CC. Are they that scared of warp lance?

Yes. And they're scared of warp blast too. Remember, Zoanthropes get a small template version that's pretty effective at melting clusters of troops.

They're firing at the Zoanthrope because usually it's the only target they've got. We play with a decent amount of terrain and my warriors make sweet, sweet love to it for line of sight blocking and cover saves. Doesn't always work, but that's basic skirmish game tactics. You don't give your enemies a chance to focus fire on the warriors unless the tradeoff is worth it. The zoanthrope, however, doesn't need cover so he prances around and blows up brains until they either manage to get lucky or stop throwing guys where he can see them.

Or in some cases, when the game goes badly, the zoanthrope's one of two remaining models. So yeah, they'll fire on it because what else do they have to do?

You could run 3 warriors, a hive guard, a zoey and have 5 points left for 1 warrior to have a better gun or rending claws?

The hive guard zoanthrope combo is a problem because you're only allowed one unit of elites in your kill team force. No mixing and matching zoanthropes and hiveguard, sadly.

Cheesegear

2016-10-18, 10:03 PM

While we're doing Kill Team questions, if you give a model Infiltrate as a specialist skill, can you really use that to infiltrate a Dedicated Transport as well? And can that transport then be full of people without Infiltrate?

You're thinking of Scout, and yes. It does work.

Also, Cheesegear, I noticed these two guides aren't in the first post:
Kill Team Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21252937&postcount=1293)
Genestealer Cults guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21262152&postcount=1336)

The Specialist Traits are a nice link to have, with a bit of fixing I could make it a real Guide.
The Genestealer Cults was actually meant as a quick-and-dirty Guide, but, now that I'm reading over it, it's almost as good as the real thing, so...Yeah. I'll fix up the Genestealer Cult Guide and put it in the OP as well.

Good catch on both of them. I've actually searched for that Kill Team Guide more than once, and I have no idea why it didn't occur to me to link it in the OP... I must be getting old. :smallsigh:

EDIT:
The Kill Team Specialist Guide has been revised/updated. Note the changes. Or don't. The KTS Guide is now also linked in the OP.

LeSwordfish

2016-10-19, 02:21 AM

You're thinking of Scout, and yes. It does work.

No, I'm thinking of infiltrate. We specifically discussed Infiltrate for some time without a conclusion at my gaming group, and in the end it was the "Units are deployed into transports" rule that Drasius mentioned that solved it - we hadn't checked the "Deployment" rules. While I was checking this, it occured to me that Scout would indeed work: which is much less scary.

Drasius

2016-10-19, 02:48 AM

...and in the end it was the "Units are deployed into transports" rule that Drasius mentioned that solved it -...

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS_ycSY-IiOsXPd3_67AyW0oy2TXgXXIjO_ioSx4ZsXLEcLTtTu

Cheesegear

2016-10-19, 03:10 AM

We specifically discussed Infiltrate for some time without a conclusion at my gaming group...

Remember how they had to change Shrike's wording because you can't Infiltrate with units that don't have Infiltrate naturally?

1. Choose dude. Give Infiltrate.
2. Take Dedicated Transport. Dude gives Transport Infiltrate.
3. All models are individual units and don't have Infiltrate, and therefore can't be deployed with models that do (i.e; Inside the Transport), because Infiltrating models are deployed last after all other units...That is, models without Infiltrate must deploy before models that do, therefore the Vehicle isn't on the table yet...And I'm repeating what Drasius said.

While I was checking this, it occured to me that Scout would indeed work: which is much less scary.

Not really. If any enemy unit can draw line of sight to your unit (and it's a Vehicle, so it's a big'un), you must deploy 18" away. In practical terms, this is only a 6" Move outside your DZ. A Scout redeployment, on the other hand, for Vehicles, is 12", and up to 12" away from enemy models. For all intents and purposes, Vehicles can Infiltrate 6", or Scout 12".

Infiltrate is good on small, Infantry units where line of sight can't easily be drawn (e.g; Assassins). Giving them a 12"-from-enemy Infiltrate. Infantry models only have a 6" Scout, which isn't good.
Large models (e.g; Vehicles) will have easily drawn line of sight, making Infiltrate less good, and the 12" Scout, is obviously better than on Infantry.

Since Scout happens after Deployment, rather than during (like Infiltrate), you can pile all your models into the same Transport, and as long as one of the models inside the Vehicle has Scout, and it's a Dedicated Transport, then it's better. A lot better. Because a Scouting Vehicle can take friends, and an Infiltrating one can't.

Tome

2016-10-19, 03:35 AM

Closet_Skeleton

2016-10-19, 03:59 AM

30+ points for 3+ t4 w1 sucks in kill team, but taking some kroot is the only way to make it work. My Seraphim obliterated 6 stealth suits without taking a single casualty.

Real Tau kill teams use Piranas.

Wall of death and twin-linked overwatch are amazing in kill team. Regular overwatch sucks, it just seems good because when it does work it is likely to win you the game.

Tome

2016-10-19, 05:17 AM

Well, there are a few other options I've been toying with. I was really hoping Stealths would work though.

Breacher Team (×10) - 200 points
Shas’ui Leader
Weapon Specialist: Sharpshooter
Guerrilla: Scout
+DS8 Tactical Support Turret, Missile Pod
+TY7 Devilfish, Twin-linked Smart Missile System, Sensor Spines

One Breacher stays home and works the turret, the other nine scout forward in the Devilfish. The Devilfish itself gets to ignore both cover and LoS with the SMS, hopefully hugging cover itself instead of Jinking.

Not sure what the third specialist should be.

XV8 Crisis Battlesuits (×3) - 121 points
Shas'vre, Flamer x2, Onager Gauntlet Leader
Flamer x2 Weapon Specialist: Sniper
Plasma Rifle, Flamer Guerrilla: Preferred Enemy

Kroot Carnivores (×10) - 79 points
Kroot Shaper, Pulse Carbine Dirty Fighter: Exploit Weakness

I didn't double up on the Plasma suit's guns because I felt it might be overkill. I could switch the specialists around to give her rending volley and the second plasma.

Drasius

2016-10-19, 11:17 AM

Speaking of Kill Team, I've been tryig to put together one for my Tau. Any thoughts from the experts?

XV25 Stealth Battlesuits (×3) - 125 points
Shas'vre, Burst Cannon, Puretide Engram Neurochip Leader
Fusion Blaster Guerrilla: Preferred Enemy
Burst Cannon, Counterfire Defence System Weapon Specialist: Reaping Volley

Kroot Carnivores (×10) - 75 points
Kroot Shaper Combat Specialist: Killer Instinct

The Shas’vre upgrade gives me an Ld9 leader and also lets me add the Neurochip for Tank Hunter. 4 S5 Tank Hunter shots should be decent anti-rhino insurance. He is effectively a 55 point model now though.

I considered making the fusion suit the weapon specialist for ignores cover, but with only one shot preferred enemy seemed more important.

Burst Cannons are four shot weapons. The option to try and kill four models a turn seemed pretty great. The counterfire was just because I had 5 points spare and didn't want a kroot hound - I've heard overwatch is pretty good in KT too.

The Kroot are there for Infiltrating Boltguns, while the Shaper is bringing three wounds and four attacks on the charge. His measly S3 made me think wounding on 2+ would be good, but there's also the option for rending. Not sure which is better.

Stealths are a great choice, your set up is unusual, but the logic is sound. I'd personally ditch the kroot for firewarriors because str5 rapid fire guns are for winners and assault sucks even harder in kill team than normal 40k. Regardless, definitely ditch the shaper, he's a massive waste of points. Ironically, the kroot hound that you didn't want makes an excellent distraction (despite being melee) precisely because it's 5 points. Find the points for sniper rounds on kroot if you do take them, wounding on 4's and ap2 on 6's is great, you're basically buying 10x ranged specialists for 1ppm.

30+ points for 3+ t4 w1 sucks in kill team, but taking some kroot is the only way to make it work.

Stealth suits have stealth, shrouded, 3+ armour, jsj, 4 shot str5 guns and a cheap fusion opt. They are literally one of the best possible models in kill team. They have a 2+ in area terrain in a game where 2+ is banned, a 3+ armour for ignores cover defence, jsj for effective immunity to shooting and assault and tau firepower. There are very few downsides to stealth suits in kill team.

Well, there are a few other options I've been toying with. I was really hoping Stealths would work though.

Breacher Team (×10) - 200 points
Shas’ui Leader
Weapon Specialist: Sharpshooter
Guerrilla: Scout
+DS8 Tactical Support Turret, Missile Pod
+TY7 Devilfish, Twin-linked Smart Missile System, Sensor Spines

One Breacher stays home and works the turret, the other nine scout forward in the Devilfish. The Devilfish itself gets to ignore both cover and LoS with the SMS, hopefully hugging cover itself instead of Jinking.

Not sure what the third specialist should be.

XV8 Crisis Battlesuits (×3) - 121 points
Shas'vre, Flamer x2, Onager Gauntlet Leader
Flamer x2 Weapon Specialist: Sniper
Plasma Rifle, Flamer Guerrilla: Preferred Enemy

Kroot Carnivores (×10) - 79 points
Kroot Shaper, Pulse Carbine Dirty Fighter: Exploit Weakness

I didn't double up on the Plasma suit's guns because I felt it might be overkill. I could switch the specialists around to give her rending volley and the second plasma.

Breachers have a 5" gun (effectively), so if someone pops your 'fish, it's a very long walk.

I've never quite understood the propensity to put SMS on a fish when the drones are already fantastic, it's likely to be Jinking a lot, they can only fire 1 weapon at full BS if they move, so you'll be snap firing the burst cannon and with a squad of Breachers, it's primary job is being a transport, so it shouldn't be firing at all on the first turn.

At least with scout you should be able to deal a solid blow if you get first turn, but you're going to be in trouble against anyone who has meched up and cover will be your worst enemy because markerlights don't really work so well in kill team.

As for the crisis list, way too many flamers. Remember that you are tau and if you are in flamer range, you're one bad jsj roll away from being mobbed and killed. A suicide suit or two is fine in 1k+, not so much in kill team where that's a significant amount of your points.

As for overkill with the plasma, a) remember that they are BS3 and b) if you really think that it's going to be overkill, great, now is the time to take split fire (or reaping volley or whatever the new split fire rule is called) and have the capacity to hit 4 guys with ap2 shots that should be wounding on 2's.

The tau team that I would suggest would be one of the following;

105 - 3x Stealth suits, 1x 'vre, 1x fusion
45 - 5x firewarriors
40 - 1x piranha

190

Leaves you 10 points to either grab a fusion on the piranha for more AV or a turret of your choice on the firewarriors.

Alternatively;

100 - 10x firewarriors, turret
100 - 10x firewarriors, turret

Switch a turret for a 'ui if you want, or

100 - 10x firewarriors, turret
100 - 2x piranha, 2x fusion

Specialists as you please, there's no fancy special rules use here, just lots of str5 dice. Except the first list, ignores cover on the fusion guy is pretty standard there.

Tome

2016-10-19, 03:58 PM

I've never quite understood the propensity to put SMS on a fish when the drones are already fantastic, it's likely to be Jinking a lot, they can only fire 1 weapon at full BS if they move, so you'll be snap firing the burst cannon and with a squad of Breachers, it's primary job is being a transport, so it shouldn't be firing at all on the first turn.

SMS are four shots with built in ignores cover and, more importantly, they ignore LoS. Drones being BS2 and unable to score would also be a factor. And quite possibly some lingering memories of previous editions where there was a bit of vehicle wargear that let you shoot and move at full efficiency. -_-

Hmm, good to hear the Stealths can do some work like I thought. I went with Kroot mostly because Cheesegear was going on about how good Infiltrate is in KT, though I'd be perfectly happy to bring my Fire Warriors out to play.

No Piranhas though. I've never really liked them much.

Any suggestions on what my third specialist should be after using guerrilla and weapon specialist?

Renegade Paladin

2016-10-19, 10:26 PM

Going back to writing missions for the tournament (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?490777-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXVI-Frequently-Asked-Frequently-Ignored&p=21220547&viewfull=1#post21220547), here's the rough draft of the second one (I've made this the Hammer and Anvil mission and reverted the Emperor's Will/Cleanse and Control hybrid to Dawn of War): We must secure a landing zone close to the front for our heavy landers. Seize the area and hold it until relieved.

The Armies
Each player fields the 1500 point army submitted to the tournament organizer.

The Battlefield
Use the pre-set terrain on the table for this mission. Use the Hammer and Anvil deployment type (pg 131) for this mission. Each player rolls a d6, re-rolling ties. Whoever scores higher can decide which half of the table they wish to deploy in. The opposing player will deploy in the opposite half.

Objective Markers
Place 5 objective markers, one in the center of the board, one each 18” from each short table edge and 24” from each long table edge, and one 12” from each long table edge and 36” from each short table edge.

Deployment
Players must deploy using the Standard Deployment Method (pg 132).

First Turn
The player that set up first can choose to take the first or second turn. If he or she decides to take the first turn, his or her opponent can attempt to Seize the Initiative (pg 132).

Game Length
The mission will last for 6 turns or the end of the full game turn that time expiration falls upon, whichever comes first.

Victory Conditions
At the end of the game the player who has scored the most Victory Points is the winner. If both players have the same number of Victory Points, the game is a draw.

Primary Objective
Each objective is worth one Victory Point to the player who holds it at the end of each full game turn, with the exception of the objectives in the deployment zones, which are worth two Victory Points at the end of every game turn if held by the player whose deployment zone they are not in.

Secondary Objectives
Slay the Warlord, First Blood, Linebreaker.

Mission Special Rules
Night Fighting (pg 135), Reserves (pg 135), Mysterious Objectives (pg 135)

I realize the final clause of the Primary Objective is awkwardly worded, but I'm tired and that's the best I can come up with right now. I'm sure I'll think of better after I sleep. At any rate, just so that not every mission is Maelstrom, it's a shot at making each game turn matter without the wild randomness.

Drasius

2016-10-20, 12:10 AM

Renegade Paladin

2016-10-20, 05:07 AM

Perhaps put the bit about the roll off for sides after deployment (like you are meant to do, unless picking sides before placing objectives is what you were aiming for).

As for the extra points for the enemy objective, just say all objectives are worth 1 point per turn, any objective in the enemy DZ is worth 1 additional point per turn.

The way I worded objective placement is meant to result in the objectives being placed in exactly the same way; they'll be in a cross pattern with one in the center and then one each equidistant between the center objective and each table edge. I can put that in there and probably should for standardization's sake, but the objectives will be in the same place either way.

Cheesegear

2016-10-20, 07:20 AM

I went with Kroot mostly because Cheesegear was going on about how good Infiltrate is in KT, though I'd be perfectly happy to bring my Fire Warriors out to play.

I said Infiltrate Specialists were good. At least I hope I did. As I said earlier, Infiltrate is good for small footprint models (i.e; Single models), because that model can hide behind the pillar and get 12" away, putting him in Rapid Fire range (e.g; Plasma Gun) or putting a Meltagun in Melta range right off the bat. It's less good, on multiple models, because there are only so many 'no LoS' spots you can hide in on the board, there just isn't enough to go 'round. Especially if your opponent also has Infiltrators, because you'll be taking turns placing single models, and that'll get old, fast, as once the first two or three Infiltrators are placed on either side, 18" away from enemy models doesn't seem that good - because it isn't.

Infiltrate is great in small amounts, and gets diminishing returns in Kill Team because there's only so many spots to fill; Stealth Teams are solid. Stealth and Shroud equals 2+ Cover Save, as well as the ability to Infiltrate can put them anywhere on the board. Blacksun Filters are magic, because every army in the game gets Stealth if Night Fight is up, and you don't like it, in addition, Blacksun Filters are immune to Blind (i.e; Cerberus Launchers, the bane of Tau). But, even if some jerk comes out with a Template/IC weapon, Stealth Suits still rock around in their 3+ Armour. What do Kroot get when you hit them with a Template weapon? That's right. Nothing.

Pathfinders are decent in KT, because Scout is more useful than Infiltrate - most of the time. This is why Scouts are awesome, 'cause they get both. But, back to Pathfinders. Ion Rifles and Rail Rifles are real good in KT, too. Recon Drones are pretty cool, too. But, Pathfinders have a 5+ Save, and therefore suck. You have to hide them in the very, very back, and shoot Rifles at people, 'cause the second they get in sniffing distance to a Boltgun, they're dead.

Finally, we get to the other unit that only Tau players who play Kill Team will ever talk about; Vespids. That's right. You're about to hear a lot of positive things about Vespids. Time to pack up shop, 40K is done forever.
Vespids are Jump/Fleet, which means you can stick a Combat Specialist in there. Vespids are Jump, but that doesn't matter, because they have Move Through Cover and always pass their Terrain checks, which is great, because Vespids also have Stealth (Ruins), which may as well just read 'Stealth' because you're playing 40K, and not Age of Sigmar. Additionally, Vespids have 4+ Armour, which means that they don't die to Boltguns, which is one thing that Vespids have over Pathfinders...Not to mention that Vespids have Stealth and how do they not also have 3+ Cover (2+ during Night Fight)?

Vespids' Jump-ness, also means that they'll get in range with their 18" range guns, basically off the bat. Which means you don't have to finagle a Breacher Team into a Devilfish with Scout. Your Vespids are already fast enough, and already have Stealth, freeing your Guerilla Specialist slot for Preferred Enemy, which is good. Then, if you get Charged, you can Overwatch, with S5, AP3 gun, or failing that, Vespids are I6, which means they strike first...Pretty much all the time (again freeing your Guerilla Specialist leaves room open for Promethium Charges, which is one of the only units in the game that would actually make use out of such a Specialist...Man...Vespid are weird). If, by some miracle, you fail to kill your opponent, and your opponent fails to kill you (Vespid are T4, with 4+ Armour, that's a Scout), Vespid have Hit & Run, to dodge out and then shoot again with that magic S5, AP3 gun. Vespid have H&R. On Initiative 6.

I just said a whole lot of good things about Vespid. In a row. Did the world explode yet? :smallfrown:

Stealth Team (x3); Fusion Blaster - 95 Points
Vespid Stingwings (x5); Strain Leader - 100 Points

Everything has 2+ or 3+ Cover, and Armour Saves.

No Piranhas though. I've never really liked them much.

Kill Team aren't the same as normal games. I said nice things about Vespids. VESPIDS!!!

EDIT: Sorry everyone who gives a poop about Zoanthropes.
"Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers has no effect in Klll Team." Zoanthropes have no Mastery Level, they don't generate Warp Charge, they can't manifest Powers. Hive Guard forever.

Cheesegear

2016-10-20, 08:36 AM

Guide to Astartes Kill Teams
And They Shall Know No Fear

The goal of creating an effective Kill Team, is to utilise models that already come stock with a boatload of special rules, and then taking Specialists (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21252937&postcount=1293) that compliment the rules you already have. If your models already come stock with special rules, you're already a step ahead of most other models in the format, and, you're less reliant on your actual Specialists when they inevitably do get killed.

And They Shall Know No Fear: Models with ATSKNF can re-roll Break Tests. So, you probably wont lose the game on that account.

Space Marines
Chapter Tactics:
Ultramarines; Tactical Doctrine lets all your models re-roll 1s To Hit, and Devastator Doctrine will do the same. By the time Turn 3 rolls around, you can probably Charge if you want, with relatively few downsides since Assault Doctrine will give you re-roll 1s in Melee. Ultramarines are always relatively good.
White Scars; Hit & Run is always nice, since your Marines with Boltguns really don't want to be in combat, re-rolling Run moves can be clutch, though to be fair you'll forget all your models can re-roll Run pretty much all the time. Bikes gaining Skilled Rider and +1 to Hammer of Wrath is also nice to have. Remember, you do not need Bikes to play White Scars, and just because you have Bikes, doesn't mean you should play White Scars (e.g; An Ultramarines Biker would love re-rolls on his Grav-Gun).
Imperial Fists; How much do you love Boltguns? 'Cause you can't run Devastators.
Black Templars; Crusader and Adamantium Will may as well be non-rules in Kill Team, and if your 'unit' suffers a Wound, they're dead. You don't get Counter-Attack and Rage 'cause you're dead. D-E-D. Ded. Black Templars are worse than useless in Kill Team.
Iron Hands; All your models gain FNP (6+), which is handy. IWND on your Characters isn't going to do anything because after you've suffered a Wound, you're dead.
Salamanders; Your Flamer weapons (i.e; Ignores Cover weapons) re-roll To Wound, and your Sergeants get Master-Crafted weapons for nothing. Certainly not a bad choice in Kill Team.
Raven Guard; Don't start in a Transport, gain Shroud (2+ Cover Save). Jump/Fleet units aren't bad, either. But, most Raven Guard models will start the game with a 2+ Cover Save, and that's enough reason to take them already.

Tactical Squad: Power Armour & Boltguns. What else is there to say? Two units of 5 (for double Sergeants) will set you back 140 Points with enough room left over for a Rhino and Special Weapons. Make sure you give a Combi-Weapon to a Sergeant who isn't your Leader, so you can make them a Specialist naturally. Preferred Enemy or Ignores Cover on a Combi-Plasma is rarely a bad idea, especially if Ultramarines or Salamanders for re-rolls To Hit. Remembering that Preferred Enemy comes at the cost of Scout, which is arguably one of the best rules if your Team includes a Transport. A Tactical Squad & Razorback also still leaves room for Scouts.

The Imperial Space Marine may be used in Kill Team. I, personally, asked Warhammer 40,000's Facebook page and was given an answer.

Scout Squad: Infiltrate, Scout, Move Through Cover. Can take Sniper weapons (Poisoned [4+] and Rending). Can take +1 to Cover Saves, which is not Stealth, so does stack with Night Fighting, for that sweet 2+ Cover save. Can take a Heavy Bolter for 8 Points (as opposed to a Tactical's 10) which is great with Ignores Cover or Reaping Volley. Scout Sergeants can pick up Combi-Weapons, and a second Sergeant can always pick up a Specialist Trait. All in all, Scouts come with a bunch of Special Rules, stock, add on some Chapter Tactics (Ultramarines) and the right Specialists and they're even better. One of the very best units in Kill Team.

Crusader Squad: Assault Marines without Jump Packs. Just take Assault Marines... and stop using Black Templars.

Command Squad: Put five Special Weapons in your list. If you're lucky, you may even get a squad of Scouts into the list as well. 18 Points per model isn't great, especially when they come with no special rules.

Vanguard: Jump/Fleet Melee unit with discounted weapons. Don't go crazy with their wargear, and if you're good, you'll be able to fit in a unit of Scouts.

Sternguard: 110 for five models is a lot. Especially when they're only T4 with 1 Wound each. Fortunately, they come with a bunch of Special Ammo types that are effective against pretty much every unit in the format...Except Vehicles. AV11/12 is going to cause problems. But, remember that Sternguard are pseudo-Devastators, and can take two Heavy Weapons (Missile Launchers) in a five-man squad. This will set you back to 140 Points...Leaving you 60 Points for five Scouts with Rifles. Strange how that works out, isn't it?

Legion of the Damned: "If any models in your Kill Team can normally only be deployed via Deep Strike, simply deploy them along with the rest of your army." What's that button do? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0Lx3s170iI) (potentially NSFW). The Damned are Fearless so don't take Break Tests like noobs, every single one of them has Ignores Cover as standard, which means every single one of them is chucking a S6, AP4 Krak Grenade with Ignores Cover. Win. At 25 Points per model, they'd better have a 3+ Invulnerable save. Only problem being that with Slow & Purposeful, they can't Overwatch, but that doesn't matter. A Multi-Melta and Meltagun will set you back 145 Points...And look, there's 55 Points left for Scouts. :smallbiggrin:

Assault Squad: With the Jump Packs, it'll be a minimum buy-in of 85 Points, or you can grab a Rhino (use Scout) for 105. Just be aware that all your models count as individual units, and that means that all of your Assault Marines (and everything else, too) come stock with S6 Krak Grenade attacks, just in case you go up against a Vehicle. Only one grenade can be thrown per unit...Which is everything you own. Only reason to bring this up now (as opposed to before), is that Assault Marines have single-shot Bolt Pistols, and single-shot Krak Grenades are way better. Though if you're going to be chucking Krak Grenades the whole game, Legion of the Damned do it better, because AP4, Ignores Cover. Two Eviscerators and two Flamers still give you plenty of room for Scouts.

Scout Bikes: Basically Scouts, with T5. Instead of Camo Cloaks they can Jink, and instead of Sniper Rifles they have Astartes Grenade Launchers (S6, AP4, Rapid Fire). Cluster Mines are also lulzy. Scout Bikes are excellent. Their only downside - really - is their 4+ Armour, which is mitigated by their ability to Jink. Since Bikes aren't in Transports, Raven Guard ones will have 2+ Cover Save, and White Scars ones will have S5 Hammer of Wrath, which is actually pretty good.

Bikes: Relentless Plasma weapons. What else do you want? Grav-Guns are less useful in Kill Team because the Armour Saves on most units will be lower, and Bikes don't come with Grav-Amps (that's what the Twin-Linked Boltguns on the front are for). In any case, Bikes are good, but Scout Bikes are probably going to be better in most games, and two are mutually exclusive thanks to the fact that you only have one Fast slot in Kill Team.

Attack Bike: You're much better off attaching it to the Bike Squad, and taking four models in your Fast slot, instead of 1. Make sure to give your Multi-Melta Attack Bike, Scout. Although that will come at the cost of Preferred Enemy, which will make your Plasma weapons sad...Or just play Ultramarines and re-roll anyway.

Land Speeder Storm: Comes with Scout naturally, so you don't have to put anything in it. Even though the only things that you could put in it, have Scout also. Deep Striking in Kill Team doesn't exist, so the Jamming Beacon does nothing. No, the main reason you take a Land Speeder Storm in Kill Team is for that magic Cerberus Launcher; A Large Blast weapon which causes Blind checks. Sure, at AP6, it wont ever really kill anything, but it doesn't need to. It's job is to cause Blind checks. At Initiative 2, Tau and Necrons get real sad when you start throwing Blind checks at their models, making their Ignores Cover models basically do nothing to your vulnerable Scouts.
Speaking of Scouts; The Land Speeder Storm is Open-Topped, that means all models in the thing can fire weapons. Since each model is a separate unit, your unit can now shoot at everything, while remaining in the relative safety of the 'Storm. Remember; Models in Vehicles count as Fearless. Fearless models pass Break Tests. When push comes to shove, your Scouts can also bail out and Charge everything within range. If you're building your Team around Scouts (since they have the most stock special rules and are cheaper than Legion of the Damned), then there really isn't a reason to not use a Land Speeder Storm. Since a Storm has Scout naturally, you are safe to put the 'Storm in your Fast slot and put any Scout you want in it, as needs must. Just remember that a Land Speeder Storm is Open-Topped, so Template weapons (e.g; Heavy Flamers) will hit all the guys inside - target priority; Template weapons. Except you're running Scouts, so you already know to target models with Ignores Cover, don't you? Don't you!?

Land Speeder: x3 Land Speeders will set you back 135 Points, which will still fit 60 Points worth of Scouts, in. Remembering that your Kill Team must include at least four non-Vehicle models. Armour spam lists are always interesting lists - though not necessarily good - because it's fun to put people through their paces. Heavy Flamers on a Land Speeder are free, so that's cool.
(Scouts [x5] - 55 Points; Land Speeders [x3]; x2 Heavy Flamers, x1 Multi-Melta - 145 Points).

TL;DR
Space Marines have a lot of interesting choices, made possible by the fact that Scouts are 55 Points for 5, and come with a bunch of special rules making them really strong. Cheap (and strong) units in Kill Team are important because of how Break Tests will make you sad. With that said, why would you consider Scouts a 'tax' unit to make up numbers, when you can simply run an entire Kill Team of Scouts (and a 'Storm)?

Blood Angels
Tactical Squad: The only reason to take these over Chapter Tactics'd Tactical Marines is because of the Heavy Flamer, which is actually pretty good. That'll set you back 80 Points, or 115 with a Rhino (and Scout). A Combi-Melta on the Sergeant gives you 75 Points to play with, which, unfortunately isn't a lot. You sacrifice a bit to cram in that Rhino with the Overcharged Engines that you'll never use. Alternatively, you could give your Heavy Flamer trooper Infiltrate and have him sneak onto the board. Point is, Heavy Flamer on your Tactical Marines, Codex Marines can't give you that, no matter what Chapter Tactics you use.

Scouts: Not quite as good as their Codex Marine couterparts, because Chapter Tactics, and Furious Charge just not being that good on Scouts. Especially since Blood Angels don't have access to Land Speeder Storms. If you want to run Scouts, don't do it with Blood Angels.

Command Squad: The Company Champion and Apothecary are essentially free, which gives you 3 Special Weapon slots for Meltaguns for only 130 Points. The Apothecary doesn't make a bad Leader, either, since he comes stock with FNP.

Death Company: 23 points each (with the Jump Pack) actually isn't bad. They come stock with FNP so they don't die, they're Fearless so they don't take Break Tests, they have Rage giving them 4 attacks on the Charge, with Furious Charge, not including the preceding phase where they don't get to Charge because they shot their target with Boltguns and now they're dead...Unless they're not, which is fine, because Death Company are Relentless and shooting Rapid Fire weapons means nothing. You can pick up six Death Company with five Scouts and have a few points left over for Rifles. If you're playing Blood Angels in Kill Team, you're basing your army around Death Company, because Codex Marines do everything else, pretty much better.

Vanguard: No. Play Space Marines.
Sternguard: No. Play Space Marines.

Rhino/Razorback: Pay 10 points for Overcharged Engines that you'll never use. No, you don't get a choice.
Land Speeders: No. Play Space Marines (their Scouts are better).

Assault Squad: Furious Charge on Assault Marines actually isn't terrible. Neither is access to real Special Weapons like Meltaguns. Like other Space Marines, instead of shooting Bolt Pistols, Assault Marines can run around chucking Krak Grenades at Vehicles they don't like and pick up dual Meltaguns unlike other Chapters. Remember that Angel's Blade is a thing now, and gives them Eviscerators. So, yeah. Furious Charge on Assault Marines isn't bad, per se. But have you seen Death Company?

Bikes/Attack Bikes: Again with the Furious Charge.
Scout Bikes: Ditto. If you're going to move fast and Jink a lot (making your Ranged attacks non-existent), you may as well Charge, right? It's what the Dark Angels do. Unfortunately, even with Furious Charge, White Scars just do it better, thanks to Skilled Rider giving them +1 to Jink, and never taking Terrain checks.

TL;DR
Got Death Company?

Dark Angels
Dark Angels are Stubborn - unless they're Fearless - which I'm pretty sure does nothing at all in Kill Team. The reason you play Dark Angels over say, Space Marines, is because you really want that ability to Overwatch on BS2, because your meta is rampant with models that want to Charge you, and Overwatch happens at Initiative 11.

Tactical Marines: They Overwatch on BS2, otherwise they're normal Marines without the ability to re-roll To Hit and no 2+ Cover.

Scout Squad: Scouts are Scouts. They're still 11 Points, they can still take Rifles and they can still take Camo Cloaks. The only thing they're missing is access to Land Speeder Storms. At the end of the day, Scouts will never not be good. Overwatching on BS2 is slightly more useful that Blood Angels' Furious Charge, since, as mentioned, Initiative 11, but, you get to 360 No-Scope when you Overwatch and that's always fun to do. As with all Marines, the minimum buy-in at 55 Points for models that are all good, means a lot of expensive units open up because you can always take 55 Points worth of Scouts to fill out your model count to avoid Break The Enemy.

Company Veterans: Nope.
Command Squad: The Sacred Standard, since you can Plasma Gun all day. But, a Command with the Banner is 135 Points, before Specials, so it's not actually worth it. You can always pay ~150 Points for five models with T4 and no Invulnerable...Good luck with that.

Ravenwing Command Squad: Twin-Linked Plasma Guns. S5 Rending attacks. Re-rollable Jink with Skilled Rider. Scout. Hit & Run. Almost as many stock special rules as Scouts. Ravenwing Grenade Launchers are free, but your Plasma Talons are probably better, especially seeing as how one of them can pick up Ignores Cover. 30 Points for the Apothecary is way too much, since now you've just paid 150 Points for three models. However, the Blade of Caliban is absolutely worth the 5 Points. x3 Black Knights for 120 Points, leaves you open to pick up a Scout Squad with the rest of your points. Remember that parking your Bike in Terrain will give you a 4+ Cover Save anyway - you don't have to Jink all the time, right? - and since Black Knights have Skilled Rider, they'll never take Dangerous Terrain checks.
Only thing letting the Command Squad down is lack of access to Melta Bombs, but that's what the S5, Rending attacks are for.

Rhino: Make it Dedicated to a Tactical Squad, give one of them Scout. Go to town.
Razorback: Probably not. Razorbacks are already too expensive for no reason, and in a format where you have no points to screw around with, Razorbacks simply are just terrible.

Assault Squad: Throw Krak Grenades all day. Other Chapters do it better.

Ravenwing Bike Squad: Re-rollable Jink is nice, but without Skilled Rider, it's less cool. Still have Scout though, and that's always neat. If you pick up two Plasma or Grav Guns, you're pretty close to the point where you may as well just take Black Knights, because Skilled Rider on top of re-rollable Jink is just better. The other issue is that Black Knights' Plasma weapons are naturally Twin-Linked, which means no Gets Hot!, and the Jinking that you inevitably will do, is less bad. Black Knights also come with Corvus Hammers making them an effective Melee unit, as well. The specific reason to take Ravenwing over Black Knights is because of Scouting Meltaguns. You lose out a lot in the Melee department, though.

Attack Bike: No. If you're taking Attack Bikes, take them as part of the Ravenwing Squad and spam Melta weapons.

Land Speeders: 50 Points each (for the re-rollable Jink) means you can't take 3 of them and still have 55 Points left over for Scouts. It's not quite as armour spam-y as other Marine Chapters, but, re-rollable Jink means your Land Speeders will survive longer. But you will only have two of them. But you'll have more non-Vehicles. Whatever. Armour spam is still armour spam. If you are tempted to Jink a lot (you will be, with those re-rolls), make sure to not bring Heavy Flamers - but Heavy Flamers are so good though!

Ravenwing Darkshroud: Are you about to be sad? Ravenwing Command Squad (x3) - 120 Points; Ravenwing Darkshroud - 80 Points. Seems legit...Except that your Kill Team must include at least four non-Vehicle models. Command Squad & Darkshroud only has three. Fail. So ditch that idea. You can't even Darkshroud & Ravenwing, because you only have one Fast slot to play with. So, what do? The answer should be obvious; Scouts. Dark Angels don't have Land Speeder Storms, they have Darkshrouds instead. Remember, Camo Cloaks do not give Stealth, they give +1 to Cover Save, which stacks with Stealth/Night Fighting. 2+ Cover Save all day. Since a 'Shroud is 80 Points, you've got 120 Points left over for two units of Scouts (double Sergeants). Don't actually be afraid to give some of those Scouts Shotguns or Combat Blades (remember, Space Marines with Bolt Pistols are actually chucking Krak Grenades all day), because if your model starts its Charge within 6" of a 'Shroud, your opponent's model can't shoot Overwatch. Awesome. Charging doesn't totally suck anymore (A 'Shroud & Assault Marines would also work if you had more than one Fast slot, but you don't. So why'd I even bring it up?). You can take the Assault Cannon if you want. Since you'll be Jinking with Shroud and Ravenwing (2+ re-rollable Cover!) more shots with the Cannon isn't a bad choice, but if you're only going to hit on 6s, why pay 15 Points at all?

Ravenwing Black Knights: Same as your Command Squad. But, instead of 5 Points for a Blade of Caliban, you can pay 5 Points for Melta Bombs. The other models will have S5, Rending. Melta Bombs or a Blade of Caliban? Your choice.

TL;DR
A (good) Dark Angels' Kill Team - yes, all the models - will have a 2+ Cover Save for most if not all of the game (and all of it will Scout). It's exactly as annoying as you think it is, and a strong contender for one of the reasons why other Kill Teams need to bring Ignores Cover. Dark Angels, either with Scouts and Camo Cloaks, or Ravenwing, will be abusing Cover mechanics like all get-out. With or without a Darkshroud.

Deathwatch
Veterans: Like Sternguard, except with Mission Tactics. The pool of Battlefield Roles in Kill Team is limited to 3, with most Kill Teams only ever utilising two Roles, which is great, 'cause you only get two types of Mission Tactics. In any case, Special Issue Ammunition does all the things, and re-roll 1s To Hit against...Anything, means that even your Vengeance Rounds wont Gets Hot like a fool. Deathwatch Shotguns are free and let you Charge. Stalker Pattern Boltguns give all your ammo attacks Poisoned (4+) and Rending. So, yeah. Frag Cannons are neat, but at 25 Points each, you probably don't want too many. In addition, your opponents will target any Frag Cannon you have on the board, is it really worth making your Frag Cannon a Specialist? The guy with the Frag Cannon is already a rock star. He does not need to be a Specialist. Spread the love. A guy with a Stalker popping off Vengeance Rounds (remember Mission Tactics) with Ignores Cover is a serious threat on the board. Every shot that comes out of a Stalker is Rending. Even the Poisoned (2+) ammo. Nice Bike. T5? I wound on 2s. No Jink because the model Ignores Cover. Oops, I rolled a '6', you're dead. Infernus Heavy Bolters can also do real work in Kill Team.

Vanguard Veterans: Jump/Fleet is nice for Melee units. Lightning Claws are neat (there are no 2+ Saves in Kill Team) because Shred. Pick up some Melta Bombs. Go.

Bikers: x3 of them is 90 Points, with the Veterans a cool 110, will take you to 200. Unfortunately, you have no way to bust Vehicles as all your models are naked. Special Issue Ammo can take you pretty far, but as soon as someone puts AV on the board, you're in trouble. You can try for 6s to Glance with Ignores Cover (Jink), and that'll shut down a few Land Speeders if you can manage to hit. No, x2 Bikers is more than enough, with Melta Bombs and a Power Weapon (x2 = 80 Points, Veterans with x2 Stalker Guns; 120 Points), and your goal is to run at your opponent, Jinking the whole time with Skilled Rider, and then just plow into dudes. Remember that you have Skilled Rider, and unlike Dark Angels, you don't get re-rolls specifically to your Jink. So...Get in terrain, and just don't Jink. Easy? But, your Boltguns are Twin-Linked so Jinking is mitigated anyway. Anyway. Power Swords. 5 Points. With a permanent 3+ Cover Save. Another Kill Team is 4 Bikes and a Vanguard Veteran with Storm Shield and Lightning Claw. That'll get you 5 models, all reasonably survivable... Unless your opponent has Ignores Cover and turns your 3+ Jink save to crap. Which is always possible.

Rhino: Give a Deathwatch Veteran, Scout. Your Deathwatch don't need Preferred Enemy from the Guerilla tree anyway (sort of) since with Mission Tactics you'll be re-rolling 1s To Hit anyway.
Razorbacks: Always going to be bad in Kill Team, no matter which Faction you play with.

TL;DR
Deathwatch are expensive, and you only have 200 Points to play with, and unlike other Astartes, you don't have Scouts to fill out your Break threshold. Despite the entire narrative of the Kill Team game being basically made for Deathwatch's whole schtick, Deathwatch are actually a pretty bad idea for a Kill Team.

Grey Knights
A Kill Team cannot include any models with a 2+ Armour Save.
Psychic Solitude: The Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rule has no effect in games of Kill Team.
...
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Oh...You're still here? Well, if you must...

Strike Squad: 110 Points for five models looks like you should be playing Deathwatch. Except that Grey Knights don't have the kick-ass Ammo Types that Poison (2+), AP3 or Ignores Cover. Grey Knights have Power Weapons (since you can't cast Force anytime soon), and that's cool. But you're still only T4 with a 3+ Save for 20 Points a model. Bring Psycannons.

Purifiers: 25 Points per model isn't better. Did you read in the Space Marines section how Legion of the Damned are deployed normally, starting the game on the board? Okay. Okay. Purifiers are Fearless and that's nice, and can bring two Special Weapons. A Psycannon and an Incinerator are pretty good. Or two Psycannons. Or whatever. You're playing Grey Knights, and the format hates you. Do whatever you want. It's not going to matter.

Rhino: Put a Specialist with Scout in it. Pretty sure other Marines do it the same except don't pay 20 Points per model to do it.
Razorback: Do I really have to keep tying this out?

Interceptors: Strike Knights with Jump Packs. Still 24 Points per model. How have you gotten this far? Why are you still reading the Grey Knights' section? Just give up. The format hates you. The two things that make Grey Knights good, Kill Team takes away. You're done, kid. Go home.

TL;DR
Hope you like Purifiers, 'cause they're the only thing you've got, and you get...6, probably 7 (at least they're Fearless, right?). They're T4 with 3+ Armour and 25 Points each, before upgrades.

Space Wolves
Counter-Attack is nice to have, but it is reliant on your opponent being dumb enough to Charge you. Acute Senses isn't awful, and it's very helpful during Alone in the Dark (Mission #2) where a third of your Team will gain Outflank for no reason other than the fact that you're playing Mission #2.

Blood Claws: Rage is cool, combined with the Counter-Attack you already have, means that it doesn't matter if you're Charging or being Charged. Having Bolt Pistols is irrelevant because every model you have is throwing Krak Grenades, and you can throw around some upgrades because the minimum buy-in for Blood Claws is only 60 Points. Power Armour and Krak Grenades is always pretty good. Just remember that the old standby of Blood Claws being BS3 is kind of really terrible. But that's why you have natural Rage with a Power Fist. Or Melee!Haywire Specialist. Or whatever.

Lukas the Trickster: 80 Points for a 2-Wound model is...Well, it's a lot.

Grey Hunters: Grey Hunters. Power Armour and Boltguns. Except unlike Space Marines, don't get free Sergeants. So you have to pay for the - admittedly Veteran - Character, and then also pay more points for wargear. Blood Claws are just better for cheaper. Unless you want to take Meltaguns or something, but that's going to cost you 160 Points, and there's better things you can be doing. Especially since your 'Chapter Tactics' of Counter-Attack really does nothing because Grey Hunters don't want to be in Melee.

Wolf Scouts: OHGODWHY are they 70 Points for five? Every other Astartes player is laughing at you. Well, Acute Senses is pretty good, 'cause Scouts actually can Outflank. They have all the normal stuff that other Scouts get, but can also pick up a Meltagun for reasons. Two Scouts can even take Power Weapons, which is way better if you actually want to try Melee-ing stuff. In any case, Wolf Scouts are still Scouts, and that's as good as anything. Unfortunately, they're 70 Points base, and that really, really does suck.

Lone Wolf: A pair of FenPups and some Melee weapons. He's got 2 Wounds, he's got Fearless, FNP and Eternal Warrior. How is he not your Leader already!? Even if he's got a pair of Melee weapons (a single Lightning Claw is more than enough in Kill Team), he can still throw Krak Grenades. Because.

Wolf Guard: Would you rather bad Sternguard/Deathwatch, or bad Vanguard?

Swiftclaws: Have the Rage. Since you're BS3 because 'Claws, why not Jink all the time, then crash into dudes with Hammer of Wrath & Rage. One of your Swiftlcaws can take a Special Weapon (maybe don't Jink with that one), one Swiftclaw can take a Melee weapon, your Attack Bike is 10 Points less than other Marines' (because of the BS3), and it's still a 2-Wound model with T5 that can Jink, and then you can also pick up your Character, who can pick up more wargear.

Rhino: Scout or don't bother.
Razorback: Oh wow. A Space Wolf Kill Team might actually use a Razorback (remember to Scout), since a Razorback actually has ranged options on it. Grey Hunters are basically bad, and all your 'Claw units are BS3 with their weapons (what are you, Guard!?). A Twin-Linked Assault Cannon or Lascannon and Twin-Linked Plasma Gun is actually almost viable...For Space Wolves. Except that putting one Vehicle in the board that isn't AV12 is a pretty bad idea, because your opponent grabs their 2-3 models that can hurt your Vehicle and does their damnedest to remove it from the board... Or, don't Scout, and hide it in the back of the board, and delete a model per turn.

Thunderwolf Cavalry Minimum buy-in of 120 Points for three models, no wargear. They're S5, Rending and that's not even bad. Unfortunately, they are 120 Points for three, naked. Which leaves you room for Wolf Scouts with a Meltagun? Blood Claws? A tooled Lone Wolf?

Fenrisian Wolves: No.

Skyclaws: Rage on Jump units are fun. You can get x2 Meltaguns (BS3), you can have a dude with a Power Weapon, and you also get a Character model if you want one. At 75 Points for five, that's not even terrible. Except that Swiftclaws are - probably - better for around the same points. But the dual Meltagun idea is nice.

Land Speeders: Unfortunately, they're 50 points base for no adequate reason (unlike a Codex Marines' 45). Three 'Speeders will take you to 150 Points...Except that Wolves don't get normal Scouts, so you'll have fill your 4-model with...Nothing. Because Fenrisian Wolves take your Fast slot, and a Lone Wolf with two FenPups is only three models. Fail. You can pick up two for 100 Points. Maybe have a Multi-Melta or two and a Heavy Flamer.

Wulfen: Have a lot of special rules. 2 Wounds, FNP and 4+ Armour actually is pretty strong. Rage at I5 is bananas. Unfortunately, Curse of the Wulfen does nothing, since every model you put on the board is a Wulfen. At 150 Points, and taking your Elite slot, the only unit you have left are Fenrisian Wolves (who are also not affected by Curse), or perhaps a naked Land Speeder.

TL;DR
Space Wolves aren't great at Kill Team. Their Ranged options aren't very good, and their Melee options are really, really expensive (ain't no Vanguard, here). Supposedly there's a list to be found in Wolf Scouts and Swiftclaws, but you can make basically the same list using other Astartes books (White Scars & Raven Guard, Dark Angels), and it's just...Better. Due to the fact that other Chapters get their Scouts for 55 Points instead of friggin' 70! Another - supposedly - decent list is a Lone Wolf and as many Blood Claws as you can fit. Any model that can take a Power Fist or Melta Bombs, does. The Blood Claw holding the Special weapon has a Meltagun, and you just run around the board throwing Krak Grenades at everything because that's the rules.

Lost Demiurge

2016-10-20, 08:47 AM

EDIT: Sorry everyone who gives a poop about Zoanthropes.
"Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers has no effect in Klll Team." Zoanthropes have no Mastery Level, they don't generate Warp Charge, they can't manifest Powers. Hive Guard forever.

Yeah, we ignore that bullhockey. No one in our meta's gonna cheese out the brotherhood of psykers loophole, so it doesn't apply to us.

Besides, in the codex entry, it clearly states that Zoanthropes are level 2 psykers. The fact it doesn't reprint that in the army lists in the back of the book is irrelevant.

Cheesegear

2016-10-20, 08:55 AM

Besides, in the codex entry, it clearly states that Zoanthropes are level 2 psykers.

No it doesn't. It has Brotherhood of Psykers, and Psychic Brood.
Psychic Brood: A Zoanthrope Brood follows all the rules for Brotherhood of Psykers except that it has a Mastery Level of 2.

That's what it clearly states. That a Zoanthrope follows all the rules for Brotherhood of Psykers, which doesn't exist in Kill Team. Ergo, Zoanthropes do nothing.

Lost Demiurge

2016-10-20, 09:27 AM

No it doesn't. It has Brotherhood of Psykers, and Psychic Brood.
Psychic Brood: A Zoanthrope Brood follows all the rules for Brotherhood of Psykers except that it has a Mastery Level of 2.

That's what it clearly states. That a Zoanthrope follows all the rules for Brotherhood of Psykers, which doesn't exist in Kill Team. Ergo, Zoanthropes do nothing.

Really? Hm. I don't have my Tyranid codex to hand. Because I could have sworn that back in the fluff entry, it states that it counts as a psyker, rating 2.

And I'm pretty sure that the tyranid kill team that was featured in White Dwarf a little while back had a zoanthrope in it. Pretty sure he didn't do nothing.

But here, let me sum up our next conversation, because I'm pretty sure I know how it'll go.

"Ah!" You'll say. "The White Dwarf kill team is because they put out the errata after that!"

Hence, I'll say "The errata sucks. It's clearly the usual Games Workshop overreaction. They're trying to stop a psyker swarm scenario, and reached for the blunt fix rather than a precision fix."

Then you'll say "Well it doesn't matter because the errata is official!"

And I'll say "It is at the minute. I have faith it'll be fixed eventually. And in the meantime, if some guy calls our games unofficial, I don't really care. They're fun, and my zoanthrope tends to be pretty balanced for what he goes up against."

Then you'll say "But, but, but you can't play that way in official tournaments!"

And I'll say "I don't go to official tournaments anymore, because they're full of people who take this #!$!$ way too seriously. I play with my friends instead."

And that's where my farseer-like vision of the conversation breaks down.

Does that about cover it? :smallbiggrin:

Cheesegear

2016-10-20, 09:49 AM

Because I could have sworn that back in the fluff entry, it states that it counts as a psyker, rating 2.

It does, but it gets the Mastery Level 2 from Brotherhood of Psykers. I even quoted the rule for you.

"Ah!" You'll say. "The White Dwarf kill team is because they put out the errata after that!"

Never saw it.

Hence, I'll say "The errata sucks. It's clearly the usual Games Workshop overreaction.

It's not Errata, it's in the rules. Like that time Duncan gave his Black Shield a Heavy Thunder Hammer. If the White Dwarf team used a Zoanthrope that actually did something, it was against the rules, and it should be pointed out so people don't make the same mistake...Unless people houserule it and everyone at the table is fine with it. But if Zoanthropes get Brotherhood, do Horrors? Is a Tzeentch player really allowed to run around the board with ~20 Horrors all shooting off Witchfires? What makes Zoanthropes so special? Why can't Purifiers run around popping off Cleansing Flame, each?

Because you felt like it. It's important that you know that other people wont be able to take your feelings to their own meta.

And I'll say "It is at the minute. I have faith it'll be fixed eventually."

In that case, go their Facebook, get someone to take a look at it. Screenshot the response (because I didn't when I asked my questions, and I really, really, really wish that I did), and put it up somewhere online and link it as often as possible.

Does that about cover it? :smallbiggrin:

If it's fun, do it. I don't care. Just so long as you know you're not playing by the rules, it's fine. Just like how my meta ignores that the Errata says "Drop Pod doors count as part of the model for all rules purposes.", which is asinine and game-breaking at best, and at worst makes Drop Pods completely unusable. But I know that I do that, and there are legitimate reasons that Drop Pods are completely broken if the doors count as part of the model, and I can reason that, without ever once saying "But I like/dislike Drop Pods so I should be allowed to not/use the Errata because I feel like it."

hamishspence

2016-10-20, 09:54 AM

Zoanthropes can be bought on their own. Isn't a lone Brotherhood of Psyker basically just an ordinary Psyker?

LeSwordfish

2016-10-20, 09:56 AM

Yes, but they still have the Brotherhood rule.

Lost Demiurge

2016-10-20, 09:57 AM

Zoanthropes can be bought on their own. Isn't a lone Brotherhood of Psyker basically just an ordinary Psyker?

That's our take on it.

Cheesegear

2016-10-20, 09:58 AM

Zoanthropes can be bought on their own. Isn't a lone Brotherhood of Psyker basically just an ordinary Psyker?

Nope. Because it has the Brotherhood of Psykers rule.

Take a Broodlord; Psyker (Mastery Level 1), is not the same rule as Brotherhood of Psykers (Mastery Level 1), even though functionally, they are the same. This is like how Zealot doesn't actually give a model Fearless, and because Zealot isn't explicitly Fearless, models with Zealot (e.g; Leaders with #6) don't automatically pass Break Tests.

"Grey Knights suck because Brotherhood of Psykers isn't a thing!" (see my Guide on the previous page).
Cool. Now I'm houseruling that individual 'Brotherhood models' lose the Brotherhood rule, and now I can do whatever I want.
Cue Grey Knight Purifiers spamming Cleansing Flame.
"No. That's broken, you can't do that."
But you can do it for Zoanthropes?
"Yeah, because I play Tyranids. So it's different."

I'll take back everything if someone can screenshot a response on WH40K's Facebook allowing Zoanthropes to cast Powers.
(But it wont be a complete question unless you also ask if Grey Knights and Pink Horrors can do it, too)

ZeltArruin

2016-10-20, 10:44 AM

What would make sense is if each brotherhood unit could only cast their power once. But that's far too sensible.

Lost Demiurge

2016-10-20, 11:49 AM

"Grey Knights suck because Brotherhood of Psykers isn't a thing!" (see my Guide on the previous page).
Cool. Now I'm houseruling that individual 'Brotherhood models' lose the Brotherhood rule, and now I can do whatever I want.
Cue Grey Knight Purifiers spamming Cleansing Flame.
"No. That's broken, you can't do that."
But you can do it for Zoanthropes?
"Yeah, because I play Tyranids. So it's different."

I'll take back everything if someone can screenshot a response on WH40K's Facebook allowing Zoanthropes to cast Powers.
(But it wont be a complete question unless you also ask if Grey Knights and Pink Horrors can do it, too)

Okay, let me see if I can simplify this explanation.

We're playing Kill Team without acknowledging the errata, we're having fun with it, and it's fine. You don't always need the errata if your meta doesn't have munchkin issues and can actually talk crap over.

Nobody is exploiting the brotherhood of psykers issue, nor will we.

If I end up playing in a tournament or something, I'll leave the zoanthrope at home.

You play as you wish, and we'll play as we wish.

EDIT: Eh, you know what, I'm being needlessly confrontational here. Sorry for getting cranky. You play your way, I'll play mine, and we'll both acknowledge that we'd hate having to work within each other's metas and communities. Sound cool?

Drasius

2016-10-20, 02:35 PM

Scout Bikes:... Since Bikes aren't in Transports, Raven Guard ones will have 2+ Cover Save...

I'm away from my SM codex, but IIRC, only non-bulky / very bulky units get shrouded. Since nobody ever uses scout bikes, I can't remember if they are bulky or more, but I assume that they are. Still a 3+ with night fight, but that won't mean much with all the ignores cover out there.

Re: Brotherhood of psychers - book flat out says that they know warp blast/lance and there is still a psychic phase and you still generate d6 dice, but the cap on their ML is where we run into trouble. Technically they are still ML2 psychers and can cast up to 2 spells, even if they don't generate dice because BoP doesn't work, but then you could argue that because BoP doesn't work then they aren't ML2, so while I can see both sides of that particular argument, I think I would make a house rule that any BoP unit that has a minimum of 1 model and is only taken at said Min size is treated as being a caster of their normal level instead of BoP.

Regardless, if people play with houserules or not, that's not a matter for a guide to discuss unless it's extremely common in many areas, and a guide should always deal with the rules as written (with brief comments on notorious RAW vs RAI issues to make people aware that they exist). In all respects, I think Cheese does a fantastic job and has been spot on with all of his guides in this manner (BTW Cheese, another great guide, well done).

LeSwordfish

2016-10-20, 02:53 PM

I believe "Very Bulky" is a standard part of the "Bike" unit type.

Blackhawk748

2016-10-20, 04:46 PM

I think the reason that a Zoanthrope is ok instead of the Horrors or the Grey Knights is that you can have 1 of them, whereas the others you must have at least 5 (10 im pretty sure for the Horrors). So if the Zoanthrope is limited to 1 i dont actually see an issue, but thats another houerule

Cheesegear

2016-10-20, 06:45 PM

I'm away from my SM codex, but IIRC, only non-bulky / very bulky units get shrouded.

Welcome to 7th. That rule is gone.

Grim Portent

2016-10-20, 07:02 PM

Drasius

2016-10-20, 09:35 PM

Welcome to 7th. That rule is gone.

There you go, my bad, consider me educated. Our ravenguard player gave up and started using ultras chapter tactics, probably because he's pod and terminator heavy, but he doesn't own a single bike anyway, so it wouldn't have been a thing.

I was going to ask if there was a decent list there involving mass bikes in that case for ravenguard, but then I realised that you're just being a ****ty version of white scars or ravenwing at that point.

Cheesegear

2016-10-20, 10:02 PM

I was going to ask if there was a decent list there involving mass bikes in that case for ravenguard

Raven Guard have exactly one turn of goodness. Vehicle-less models gain Shroud on Turn 1, and possible Night Fight for Stealth. If your Raven Guard don't have at least a 3+ Cover Save on Turn 1, you're doing them wrong. Unfortunately, after one turn both of those rules go away, and you're left with rules for Jump Packs. Unlike White Scars and Hit & Run being good for everyone, Raven Guard have very little to offer outside of Jump spam. If you don't like Jump, you shouldn't play Raven Guard. If you don't like Bikes, you should probably play White Scars anyway. :smalltongue:

Drasius

2016-10-21, 12:22 AM

Unfortunately I love jump packs, but I don't like ravenguard or blood angels. I also hate SM bikes with a passion second only to my hatred for craftworld eldar, so there goes white scars, 90% of the CAD based builds from 6th, ravenwing and the superfriends builds. Fortunately, I like ultras and skyhammer is a thing. Just need to figure out the remaining 850 points.

Cheesegear

2016-10-21, 08:57 AM

Tournament coming up.

White Scars, Gladius Strike Force
- Battle Company
(W) Kor'sarro Khan - 125 Points
Chaplain; Auspex - 95 Points

Tactical Squad (x5); Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma + Rhino; Dozer Blade - 100 Points
Tactical Squad (x5); Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma + Rhino; Dozer Blade - 100 Points
Tactical Squad (x5); Plasma Gun, Imperial Space Marine + Rhino; Dozer Blade - 90 Points
Tactical Squad (x5); Meltagun, Combi-Melta + Drop Pod - 90 Points
Tactical Squad (x5); Meltagun, Combi-Melta + Drop Pod - 90 Points
Tactical Squad (x5) + Razorback; Las/Plas - 90 Points

Attack Bike; Multi-Melta - 50 Points
Attack Bike; Multi-Melta - 50 Points

Devastators (x5); x3 Missile Launchers + Razorback - 115 Points
Devastators (x5) + Razorback; Las/Plas - 90 Points

- 10th Company Task Force
Scouts (x5); [Boltguns] - 55 Points
Scouts (x5); [Boltguns] - 55 Points
Scouts (x5); [Boltguns] - 55 Points

Total: 1250 Points

"How do I jam a Gladius into 1250?" Of course, someone is going to bring a Wraithknight or Imperial Knight in 1250, and I really don't know what I'm meant to do against that. It's 1250. If someone wants to bring an IK or WK in such low points, I'm fairly confident I can just go after all the other models on the board. Only things I'm really considering changing in this list are the Las/Plas Razorbacks to Twin-Linked Assault Cannons I'm also certain that the Devastators with the Missiles are dead weight, what with me not using Imperial Fists in months. I suppose I can ditch the Missiles and put another Assault Cannon on the Razor. I'm also tempted to run 7 Razorbacks and one Drop Pod. Ugh. Why are free Razorbacks so good? It's hard to make choices in such low points limits. Woe is me.

Requizen

2016-10-21, 09:10 AM

So our FLGS is starting a weekly Kill Team semi-league: everyone plays to a certain number of "laurels" based on how much they win, once someone reaches 10 they win the current circuit and it resets. Expecting ~month long circuits.

I'd love to bring my Scions, but I honestly have no idea how they'll do without Deep Strike. They did very poorly last time I tried that, but 1000 points is very different from 200, and being able to have 4 special weapons on decent bodies isn't the worst thing ever. Still, I'm hesitant to try with Necrons sitting right there with Tomb Blades and what not.

Tournament coming up.

White Scars, Gladius Strike Force
- Battle Company
(W) Kor'sarro Khan - 125 Points
Chaplain; Auspex - 95 Points

Tactical Squad (x5); Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma + Rhino; Dozer Blade - 100 Points
Tactical Squad (x5); Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma + Rhino; Dozer Blade - 100 Points
Tactical Squad (x5); Plasma Gun, Imperial Space Marine + Rhino; Dozer Blade - 90 Points
Tactical Squad (x5); Meltagun, Combi-Melta + Drop Pod - 90 Points
Tactical Squad (x5); Meltagun, Combi-Melta + Drop Pod - 90 Points
Tactical Squad (x5) + Razorback; Las/Plas - 90 Points

Attack Bike; Multi-Melta - 50 Points
Attack Bike; Multi-Melta - 50 Points

Devastators (x5); x3 Missile Launchers + Razorback - 115 Points
Devastators (x5) + Razorback; Las/Plas - 90 Points

- 10th Company Task Force
Scouts (x5); [Boltguns] - 55 Points
Scouts (x5); [Boltguns] - 55 Points
Scouts (x5); [Boltguns] - 55 Points

Total: 1250 Points

"How do I jam a Gladius into 1250?" Of course, someone is going to bring a Wraithknight or Imperial Knight in 1250, and I really don't know what I'm meant to do against that. It's 1250. If someone wants to bring an IK or WK in such low points, I'm fairly confident I can just go after all the other models on the board. Only things I'm really considering changing in this list are the Las/Plas Razorbacks to Twin-Linked Assault Cannons I'm also certain that the Devastators with the Missiles are dead weight, what with me not using Imperial Fists in months. I suppose I can ditch the Missiles and put another Assault Cannon on the Razor. I'm also tempted to run 7 Razorbacks and one Drop Pod. Ugh. Why are free Razorbacks so good? It's hard to make choices in such low points limits. Woe is me.

Well, Battle Company is never bad, that's for sure. No Grav is probably necessary for points but I feel that the list would still end up being a little hesitant around Riptides and the like, though Plas/Drop Meltas helps. TWC/Wulfen forces might give you the more difficult matches but I don't know how prevalent that is around you.

Drasius

2016-10-21, 08:43 PM

Who cares if they bring 3 wraithknights, they won't be able to kill that many units and you'll win by outscoring them with ease.

I'd trade the missiles for a grav cannon, stick 'em in a rhino and scout 12" into firing position. Even if the rhino gets popped and they have to disembark, they didn't move in the movement phase, so he's still firing at full efficiency. Probably a better trade for one of your tacticals to make though. Take a missile off the devs to pay for the change from plas+combi plas to grav cannon and give them a rhino to fire out of?

Speaking of 1250, we've got a 1250 doubles tourney coming up next month and my partner is taking tau and has decided on a bunch of firewarriors with fireblades, a riptide, an optimised stealth cadre and has a handful of points left over. I'm currently tossing up between a hunter cadre, a Tau CAD and skyhammer + the landspeeder and 2x stormtalon formation. Probably go with tau since they're painted and it fits a bit better, but the marines are really tempting...

Edit: Rules for custodes and sisters of silence now available for free download on GW

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Datasheets/Burning%20of%20Prospero%20Imperial%20Datasheets.pd f

Comparing the SoS to SoB is just silly. If either of these 2 had transports they could start in, they would be fantastic, as is, they will be situational. SoS are half the price of a culexus, but he has infiltrate and a bunch of special rules while SoS are footslogging it 6" a turn. Also, what's with all the ap2 at initiative these days? Not only that, but it's usually at increased strength and initiatives above 4. The power creep is just getting wildly out of control.

Blackhawk748

2016-10-21, 09:21 PM

I said that when the Wulfen came out, their Lightning Claws but better where just plain unnecessary.

Also, the SoS are just SoB Celestians with an actually useful rule and they can actually not suck at melee, cuz they are I5 instead of the Celestians I3 and they get a really good Melee weapon. Honestly i may take these and use my Celestians for them.

Vaz

2016-10-21, 10:06 PM

My eternal quest to create a World Eaters themed list that doesn't massively disappoint me even in assault has finally lead me to the HH World Eaters Legion rules.

Currently thinking I might try this:

Army of Dark Compliance

Legion Praetor: Cataphractii Armour, Paragon Blade, Grenade Harness, Digital Lasers, Master Crafted - 195

Force Commander: Cyber Familiar, Iron Halo, Tainted Weapon, Cult Horde, Tainted Flesh, Digital Lasers - 155

20 Inducted Levy: - 40

20 Inducted Levy: - 40

20 Inducted Levy: - 40

20 Inducted Levy: - 40

20 Inducted Levy: - 40

10 Red Butchers: 5x Lightning Claws, 5x dual Power Axes - 525

5 Red Butchers: 4x Lightning Claws, 1x dual Power Axes - 295

Spartan Assault Tank: Frag Launchers, Flare Shield, Armoured Ceramite - 350

Land Raider Phobos: Frag Launchers, Armoured Ceramite - 280

Total - 2000 points

The Force Commander and 100 levy soldiers have Zealot and Rending, in addition to a few other rules like FnP 6+ which will never matter, and should easily hold objectives or swarm enemies to death. The Force Commander also has Instant Death, so while he's far from a good fighter he might make a good MC hunter.

The Red Butchers and Praetor meanwhile are an armoured fist of pure berserk rage. The Spartan should be nearly indestructible with it's Flare Shield and Ceramite, and both units of terminators will benefit from the Frag Launchers when they first disembark. While it's only 16 terminator armoured bodies, they all have 2 wounds except the Praetor who has 3, with 5 attacks on the charge for the basic ones, at WS5 with rerolls to hit on the first turn of the assault.

It is of course a lot of points to sink into elite terminators, but the amount of damage Red Butchers are supposed to be able to deal tickles my fancy, as does the idea of an elite force of Terminator Berzerkers, which is what Red Butchers fundamentally are.

You cannot have Tainted Flesh with an Army of Dark Compliance, sadly. The two are mutually exclusive. You'd have to run the Tainted Flesh as a seperate detachment.

Tainted Flesh. "The only HQ choices the detachment can take are the Force Commander and Rogue Psyker entries."

Army of Dark Compliance. "The Primary Detachment must contain at least one Legion Praetor or Centurion (including Consuls), who must be the army's Warlord."

However, you have no scoring units. At all; you can never win a game that relies on Objectives to give KP. Red Butchers can't score, and Inducted Levy do not score in AoDC either. As only troops or Implacable Advance units can claim objectives, the best you can do is deny enemy units.

Aside from that, you have no AT ability. 6 TL Lascannons isn't really "AT". You hit 5 a turn, and you're up against something like a Deredeo, with AV13, 5++, if not a higher cover save. 2.7 shots bounce off, 2.3 HP in damage, reduced to 1.6ish HP in one turn, and that doesn't account for the dedicated tank killing of the 2x Contemptor-Cortus in a Drop Pod, or a pair of full Grav Batteries which are often used. And that then leaves you with a 350pt Tank dead in the water, a 200pt Melee Lord, and 600pts of Melee Only Terminators stuck in difficult terrain. Sure, the average legion list might struggle to kill 100 Zealot models to win the game, but they only need to hold a single objective to do so. If the enemy takes a Typhon as well (350pts), you're only killing power is dead, also.

Honestly, also, 2K is often very little for Heresy games. You'll get more fun 2,4K+, as it allows you to actually play a gimmick, but still field a fun army.

If you want to have fun with Red Butchers, run Pride of the Legion, and put them in an Anvillus Dreadclaw. Sure, they don't score, but you have no 300pt Troop Tax, but at 395/unit all in (5, Devoured with Chainfist+Thunder Hammer, Dreadclaw), combined with that they can stay in the Dreadclaw, giving them an AV12, 3HP, 4+ Jink save (ha, **** you Plasma) which can deploy anywhere. As World Eaters, you don't really have more use for your Fast Attacks (maybe Outriders at a push due to their access to S6 Power Axes and additional attack), so Triple Red Butchers is definately doable leaving you with a further 1000pts to spend on the rest of your list. You could even just go balls to the wall, and take 9,10,10 with a Praetor in Triple Kharybdis. The other option is triple Spartans with a horde of Inductii (Gahlan Surlak, makes your units unable to join, unable to score etc, but gain S5. Take another pair of Apothecaries for the units, and you can choose to give them +1 attack/model, which is an hilarious 99 S5 Attacks/turn.

Obviously, this is dependant on your meta, and if you're worried about being competitive of course, but aside from the legality issues, if all you want to do is run head long at things, then I can't help but think of better ways to do it than a "Shoot me" target.

Vaz

2016-10-21, 10:49 PM

As it's on a different context, apologies for the Double Post;

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Datasheets/Burning%20of%20Prospero%20Imperial%20Datasheets.pd f

Rules for Sisters of Silence and Custodian Guard.

Sisters are awesome cheap melee squads (15 WS4 S4 I5 AP2 attacks, = 75pts), while Custodes are uberbeasts. No real comparison, saying "melee Paladins" doesn't really cut it.

Cheesegear

2016-10-22, 02:44 AM

Edit: Rules for custodes and sisters of silence now available for free download on GW

Comparing the SoS to SoB is just silly. If either of these 2 had transports they could start in, they would be fantastic, as is, they will be situational. SoS are half the price of a culexus, but he has infiltrate and a bunch of special rules while SoS are footslogging it 6" a turn.

My thoughts exactly. 15 points per model is only slightly more expensive than a Tactical Marine, except way better. The T3 is a major turn-off though, as is the complete lack of Transport options. The best Melee units in the game are. Not. Infantry. Most importantly, I see Sisters with I5 and no Greandes. Imperial Incubi are terrible. Fearless is good, though.

Custodians are 50 points per model, and 60 if you want them to actually be useable, except then they lose their AP2, so it's a wash. T5, 2 Wounds and Eternal Warrior makes me raise an eyebrow. But, then, I see that 50 60 point price tag with no Transport, and, once again, I realise that I don't care. Again, I also see no Grenades on a Melee unit. Good one, idiots.

That's a hard pass on both units, from me. If I want Custodes, I'll just Ally in the Wulfen Formation for less points, or do something crazy with Thunderwolves.

That's not even including the fact that currently, neither Sisters or Custodes can be taken in Battle-Forged armies, because GW forgot to give them a Detachment/Formation where you can just take them.

I imagine that Forge World wont screw it up, and in 30K, both Sisters and Custodes will be amazing - not least 'cause I assume that they'll be allowed to take Transports.

boomwolf

2016-10-22, 11:04 AM

"won't screw it up"?

Both units are borderline broken and held back by the issue of transports and grenades alone, without these downsides they would be too good.
With these downsides, they are controlling the open field with impunity, but can be dealt with by keeping terrain between you.

Honestly, these two units are pretty darn well done. they are good against spesific enemies (sisters shut down psykers, custodian are good against things with few powerful attacks) they are GREAT against some of the most "power play" units in the game, yet when fighting horde type units they do not do much at all.

And that's a balancing factor on its own right, not only balancing them, but balancing the likes of psykers and deathstars by introducing answers to them.

If any, its an example of proper game design by GW.

LeSwordfish

2016-10-22, 11:12 AM

Drasius

2016-10-22, 12:13 PM

They're Armies Of The Imperium. Put a 25pt inquisitor with frag and krak grenades with them, or a dude with a power field. They can then embark into a transport and take three turns to charge you rather than two - and Custodes have Deep Strike. What's the cheapest Dark Angels character with power field you can Deep Strike? What about a Blood Angels dude with the No-Interceptor relic and Feel No Pain For Everyone? They may not be broken now, but thirty seconds of thought can break them perfectly well, thanks.

I'm swapping my Custodes for a friend's Sisters, since Death Guard don't really do psykers anyway. I figure they should be fun to put on the backline and charge Deep Strikers with.

Fairly sure grenades only work for the model that carries them and they can't deep strike naturally and that definitely doesn't confer while the BA no-interceptor jump pack doesn't help either since they can't deep strike nor outflank. FNP and the powerfield would confer, and a plasma syphon from an inquisitor would do wonders for them, both units are stuck moving 6" a turn. While they can get into a BB transport, now you're looking at a turn 3/4/5 assault and that's a) too late to do enough damage, especially for the points required and b ) most of the damage has probably been done by then.

Don't get me wrong, they are both on the strong side for my liking, but in a world of riptides, wraithknights, Orikanstars, barkstar and the like, they don't measure up to the current power units, and as we all know, if you're not the best, then you're the worst according to both the internet and competitive players.

Personally I just hate seeing yet more units that somehow managed to make my thousand sons even more irrelevant, not just in 40k but 30k too! TSons have basically been neutered before they've even been released. That must be some sort of record, to receive a pre-release nerfing.

LeSwordfish

2016-10-22, 12:20 PM

Fairly sure grenades only work for the model that carries them and they can't deep strike naturally

I'm wrong about the grenades, but:

http://image.prntscr.com/image/1a57052b28f0491aba0d31b83ae42f9c.png

Grim Portent

2016-10-22, 12:37 PM

So sisters are basically a Culexus with worse stats and no invun for cheaper, and Custodes are basically pseudo-hammernators that can give a 12" Fearless bubble to all Imperials.

I could maybe see Custodes being used in a guard list to provide a Fearless bubble and a melee hammer unit of the sort they lack, though just using Priests to hand out Fearless and throwing in some allied Hammernators would be much easier, but sisters seem kind of pointless really since the Culexus does what they do just fine, if not better since it has an invun, I suppose they'd be good in smaller points games because they're cheaper, but you only usually need to deal with 1 psychic death star in any given game and Culexus are more mobile.

You cannot have Tainted Flesh with an Army of Dark Compliance, sadly. The two are mutually exclusive. You'd have to run the Tainted Flesh as a seperate detachment.

Bugger. Thought I'd missed something in the Provenance rules. At least it's not as bad as the rules for Devotions in Renegades and Heretics. In this case I'd be better just going for full marines though since I can't use the militia as cultists+ the way I had intended.

However, you have no scoring units. At all; you can never win a game that relies on Objectives to give KP. Red Butchers can't score, and Inducted Levy do not score in AoDC either. As only troops or Implacable Advance units can claim objectives, the best you can do is deny enemy units.

Aside from that, you have no AT ability. 6 TL Lascannons isn't really "AT". You hit 5 a turn, and you're up against something like a Deredeo, with AV13, 5++, if not a higher cover save. 2.7 shots bounce off, 2.3 HP in damage, reduced to 1.6ish HP in one turn, and that doesn't account for the dedicated tank killing of the 2x Contemptor-Cortus in a Drop Pod, or a pair of full Grav Batteries which are often used. And that then leaves you with a 350pt Tank dead in the water, a 200pt Melee Lord, and 600pts of Melee Only Terminators stuck in difficult terrain. Sure, the average legion list might struggle to kill 100 Zealot models to win the game, but they only need to hold a single objective to do so. If the enemy takes a Typhon as well (350pts), you're only killing power is dead, also.

Honestly, also, 2K is often very little for Heresy games. You'll get more fun 2,4K+, as it allows you to actually play a gimmick, but still field a fun army.

If you want to have fun with Red Butchers, run Pride of the Legion, and put them in an Anvillus Dreadclaw. Sure, they don't score, but you have no 300pt Troop Tax, but at 395/unit all in (5, Devoured with Chainfist+Thunder Hammer, Dreadclaw), combined with that they can stay in the Dreadclaw, giving them an AV12, 3HP, 4+ Jink save (ha, **** you Plasma) which can deploy anywhere. As World Eaters, you don't really have more use for your Fast Attacks (maybe Outriders at a push due to their access to S6 Power Axes and additional attack), so Triple Red Butchers is definately doable leaving you with a further 1000pts to spend on the rest of your list. You could even just go balls to the wall, and take 9,10,10 with a Praetor in Triple Kharybdis. The other option is triple Spartans with a horde of Inductii (Gahlan Surlak, makes your units unable to join, unable to score etc, but gain S5. Take another pair of Apothecaries for the units, and you can choose to give them +1 attack/model, which is an hilarious 99 S5 Attacks/turn.

Obviously, this is dependant on your meta, and if you're worried about being competitive of course, but aside from the legality issues, if all you want to do is run head long at things, then I can't help but think of better ways to do it than a "Shoot me" target.

Since the mutant militia horde won't work the way I intended I'll either go for a Surlak Inductii spam list or a Pride of the Legion terminator list. Maybe a bit of both depending on what models I can get. As is I was leaning towards my original list because I could use cultists as miitia levies and modify some of the plastic Cataphractii from Calth into Red Butchers.

Drasius

2016-10-22, 05:37 PM

I'm wrong about the grenades, but:

http://image.prntscr.com/image/1a57052b28f0491aba0d31b83ae42f9c.png

Dunno why my eyes skipped over that. Point still stands for the SoS though.

Edit: Rules for Lemon of the Rustle;
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-cflfGiSznPo/WAvI1XGvlCI/AAAAAAABIgY/CrdM5qAljmY-4twkRZp74MsWx-YlOO6_wCLcB/s1600/russrules.PNG

Cheesegear

2016-10-22, 07:47 PM

Edit: Rules for Lemon of the Rustle;

At the moment he kind of sucks and is really boring. Luckily, Primarchs come with page full of rules and there's no way that this is the real version of the rules. So, whatever. The only thing that's probably real, is the statblock. His Weapon Skill 9 is even better than Fulgrim's. But, WS is the most useless stat in the game, so who cares? Lemon Rustle hits Fulgrim on 3s, but everyone else hits Rustle on 4s anyway.

Wake me when his real stats are out.

Vaz

2016-10-22, 08:40 PM

Like you said, but you don't throw a Primarch at another Primarch and expect anything to happen, they just stall each other for the rest of the game, dealing 1 wound/turn. But you have to throw a Primarch at another Primarch unless they sweep the rest of your units. Personally would rather take a Typhon or Knight over anything else, because 7" S10 AP1 Ignores Covers Blasts are my jam.

Wraith

2016-10-23, 05:45 AM

I'm wrong about the grenades, but:

http://image.prntscr.com/image/1a57052b28f0491aba0d31b83ae42f9c.png

Am I reading it correctly? They have 2+ Save, they're Bulky and they Deep Strike... but they specifically don't have Terminator Armour so they're missing a 5++? That feels weird. :smallconfused:

lord_khaine

2016-10-23, 06:08 AM

What really, really annoys me though, is that we got an entire unit of people with Eternal warrior. Its most likely one of the most exclusive traits in the game, and likely the most desired as well on anything that got more than one wound. It has so far been reserved for some of the biggest and most epic heroes in the game, generally the biggest names in a given faction.

And now we suddenly got an entire squad of not-terminator deps who are randomly given it :smallmad:

Cheesegear

2016-10-23, 06:11 AM

And now we suddenly got an entire squad of not-terminator deps who are randomly given it :smallmad:

A handful of Custodes are a match for any Primarch. Custodes are made from the Emperor in the same way that Marines are made from Primarchs. I see nothing wrong with what Custodes have, and everything about them screams "I'm a badass." What the sad thing is, is that as good as the Custodes are, all I can see is what they don't have.

bluntpencil

2016-10-23, 08:15 AM

A handful of Custodes are a match for any Primarch. Custodes are made from the Emperor in the same way that Marines are made from Primarchs. I see nothing wrong with what Custodes have, and everything about them screams "I'm a badass." What the sad thing is, is that as good as the Custodes are, all I can see is what they don't have.

Personally, I'm glad to see them sans grenades... It thematically makes sense... They are defensive. They guard the Emperor, they're not known for attack.

I'd like to see intervention in challenges, though... And automatic look out sir.

Drasius

2016-10-23, 08:52 AM

Am I reading it correctly? They have 2+ Save, they're Bulky and they Deep Strike... but they specifically don't have Terminator Armour so they're missing a 5++? That feels weird. :smallconfused:

You're taking the stormshield and sword option anyway, so that 5++ from being in terminator armour that would have stopped you from sweeping doesn't matter. Just think of it as artificer armour +. They are bulky, but the artificers moulded the armour specially so the teleporter didn't make their bum look too big.

boomwolf

2016-10-23, 09:41 AM

Personally, I'm glad to see them sans grenades... It thematically makes sense... They are defensive. They guard the Emperor, they're not known for attack.

I'd like to see intervention in challenges, though... And automatic look out sir.

The fact every last one of them is a character and as such can do wound shenanigans almost as much as 5th biker nobs isn't enough for you?

bluntpencil

2016-10-23, 10:19 AM

The fact every last one of them is a character and as such can do wound shenanigans almost as much as 5th biker nobs isn't enough for you?

I'd like to see them specialise in taking bullets for His Imperial Highness. That means being better than Creed's bald sidekick, and Nork Deddog, at it.

Renegade Paladin

2016-10-23, 10:33 AM

Open play today, tournament next week. I'm only going to play in the tournament to avoid bye rounds since I'm organizing, and this or something similar is the list I'm thinking of doing it with.

1500 points

Company Command Squad - 60 (240)
-Medi-pack, carapace armor
-Two plasma guns, heavy Flamer
-Officer of the Fleet, Astropath
--Laspistols
-Company Commander; krak grenades, carapace armor (Warlord)
-Chimera

Enginseer - 40

Primaris Psyker - 75
-Mastery Level 2

Ministorum Priest - 25

Veterans - 155
-Two meltaguns, heavy flamer
-Chimera
--Heavy flamer

Veterans - 155
-Two meltaguns, heavy flamer
-Chimera
--Heavy flamer

Veterans - 150
-Two meltaguns, heavy flamer, power axe
-Grenadiers, Demolitions

Valkyrie - 125

Vulture Gunship - 145
-Twin-linked autocannon
-Six hunter-killer missiles

Wyvern - 65

Allied Detachment (Militarum Tempestus)

Militarum Tempestus Command Squad - 125
-Bolt pistol, two hot-shot volley guns - 20
-Vox-caster, medi-pack

Militarum Tempestus Scions - 105
-Two plasma guns
-Vox-caster

Militarum Tempestus Scions - 95
-Two meltaguns
-Vox-caster

bluntpencil

2016-10-23, 10:42 AM

lord_khaine

2016-10-23, 11:08 AM

A handful of Custodes are a match for any Primarch. Custodes are made from the Emperor in the same way that Marines are made from Primarchs. I see nothing wrong with what Custodes have, and everything about them screams "I'm a badass." What the sad thing is, is that as good as the Custodes are, all I can see is what they don't have.

Yeah so.. and.. ?
They already have insanely good stats, but there are plenty of things suposedly much older and more badass that dont have eternal warrior, who are deserving it far more.

bluntpencil

2016-10-23, 11:48 AM

I think the issue with troops like Adeptus Custodes and, to a lesser extent, Adeptus Astartes, is how to make them sufficiently badass, reflecting the fluff, without breaking the game...

...and without making them the 'main characters' of the story.

The fact of the matter is that in the fluff, in any medium, in any setting, no matter how badass and elite your troops are, they're going to die like chumps if they don't have names ("Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise.")

If the Grey Knights are the antagonists in the story, they're getting their asses kicked. If the Adeptus Custodes are around, near some named heroes, they're inevitably not going to be as cool as the Inquisitor/Sister/Knight Errant.

Custodes are supposed to be super badass... but they're also supposed to suck next to folks who have names.

Tvtyrant

2016-10-23, 01:57 PM

It is nice to see another fix used on a new faction... First Genestealer Cults were everything Orks needed for their troops, now the terminator fix is called Custodes.

Cheesegear

2016-10-23, 04:44 PM

Yeah so.. and.. ?
They already have insanely good stats, but there are plenty of things suposedly much older and more badass that dont have eternal warrior, who are deserving it far more.

I guess I don't care, because Chaos Space Marine, Space Wolf, Iron Hands and sometimes Guard Death Stars all have Eternal Warrior already, and I've been dealing with T5 Eternal Warrior already for a while.

It is nice to see another fix used on a new faction... First Genestealer Cults were everything Orks needed for their troops, now the terminator fix is called Custodes.

As Drasius so excellently pointed out, I like/hate how Thousand Sons suck before they're even out, because of Sisters of Silence immediately preceding them.

Drasius

2016-10-23, 07:51 PM

As Drasius so excellently pointed out, I like/hate how Thousand Sons suck before they're even out, because of Sisters of Silence immediately preceding them.

The only saving grace is that GW basically said on their Facebook that they are for unbound only in 40k for now, so at least my blue downtrodden lads probably won't get any worse before they get their Xmas release. With the current trend, maybe they'll break their 15 odd year streak of getting worse with every new version / release? If they just added either ignores cover to the Icon of Flame or reroll saving throws of a 1, they might be worth 23 ppm, but I doubt that they can ever make the aspiring sorcerer worth 58 ppm unless there's a new tzeentch table where everything is incredible.

Blackhawk748

2016-10-23, 08:13 PM

The only saving grace is that GW basically said on their Facebook that they are for unbound only in 40k for now, so at least my blue downtrodden lads probably won't get any worse before they get their Xmas release. With the current trend, maybe they'll break their 15 odd year streak of getting worse with every new version / release? If they just added either ignores cover to the Icon of Flame or reroll saving throws of a 1, they might be worth 23 ppm, but I doubt that they can ever make the aspiring sorcerer worth 58 ppm unless there's a new tzeentch table where everything is incredible.

Adding Divination to their list of Powers would certainly be nice, im not sure if that would get them to being worth 58 ppm but it'd get it closer.

Cheesegear

2016-10-23, 08:19 PM

EDIT: A bunch of lists.

Imperial Fists, CAD
(W) Pedro Kantor - 185 Points
Librarian; [Stave], ML2, Auspex, Melta Bombs, The Bones of Osrak - 125 Points

Scouts (x5); [Boltguns], Land Speeder Storm; Heavy Flamer - 95 Points
Scouts (x5); [Boltguns], Land Speeder Storm; Heavy Flamer - 95 Points

Sternguard (x9); Combi-Gravs + Drop Pod - 313 Points
Sternguard (x7); x5 Combi-Meltas, x2 Meltaguns, Melta Bombs + Drop Pod - 264 Points
Sternguard (x5); x2 Heavy Flamers, Melta Bombs + Drop Pod - 170 Points

Total: 1247 Points

This is what one takes when you're an utter noob and you think What You Like = What Is Good.

Imperial Fists, Sternhammer Strike Force
- Battle Demi-Company
(W) Terminator Captain; Cataphractii, Chainfist, Auspex, The Shield Eternal - 190 Points

Tactical Squad (x5); Meltagun, Combi-Melta + Drop Pod - 125 Points
Tactical Squad (x5); Meltagun, Combi-Melta + Drop Pod - 125 Points
Tactical Squad (x5); The Imperial Space Marine - 70 Points

Land Speeder; x2 Heavy Bolters - 50 Points

Devastators (x5); x3 Missile Launchers, Multi-Melta + Drop Pod - 160 Points

- Centurions
Centurion Devastators (x3); x1 Missile Launcher, Grav-Cannons and Grav-Amps, Omniscope - 260 Points

Imperial Fists, CAD
Librarian; [Stave], ML2, Auspex, Melta Bombs, The Bones of Osrak - 125 Points

Scouts (x5); [Boltguns] - 55 Points
Scouts (x5); [Boltguns] - 55 Points

Drop Pod - 35 Points

Total: 1250 Points

This is what I would take to a normal/casual game. Except we all know that normal lists don't win tournaments, because tournaments aren't for making friends. For those who still think my meta is ultra-competitive, this is basically the level of my meta. There's nothing in the list that any reasonable person would call bad, but it's far from the best possible list.

Imperial Fists, CAD
(W) Terminator Captain; Cataphractii, Chainfist, Auspex, The Shield Eternal - 190 Points
Librarian; [Stave], ML2, The Bones of Osrak - 115 Points

Scouts (x5); [Boltguns] + Land Speeder Storm; Heavy Flamer - 95 Points
Scouts (x5); [Boltguns] + Land Speeder Storm; Heavy Flamer - 95 Points
Scouts (x5); [Boltguns] + Land Speeder Storm; Heavy Flamer - 95 Points
Scouts (x10); Sniper Rifles - 110 Points

Devastators (x5); x3 Missile Launchers, Multi-Melta + Drop Pod - 160 Points

Inquisitorial Detachment
Inquisitor Coteaz - 100 Points
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor; x3 Servo-Skulls - 34 Points

Deathwatch, AD
Librarian - 70 Points
Veterans (x5); x3 Deathwatch Frag Cannons - 185 Points

Total: 1249 Points

This, children, is what you would call Hard Tailoring. I know a couple of guys going to the tournament, and I know Genestealer Cults will show, as will Drop Pods, and Angel's Blade Blood Angels and probably a Shadowstrike or two. Land Speeder Storms make Deep Strikers fly off in the other direction, and if they roll a 'Hit' (or don't Scatter at all), then Coteaz opens up with triple Frag Cannons. Servo-Skulls don't stop Cult Ambush, but they do prevent Infiltrating, which, can force my opponent to use Cult Ambush, which means Coteaz gets to roll them. Charge my unit with three Frag Cannons in, I dare you.

This is, however, hard tailoring. While I know I can beat some of the guys who show up, I might not be able to beat everyone reliably. I can guarantee that they'll be at least one Wraithknight around, and I wont be able to deal with any - or Imperial Knights - that show up.

Inquisitorial Detachment
(W) Ordo Xenos Inquisitor; Servo-Skull - 28 Points

Iron Hands, Land Raider Spearhead
Land Raider - 250 Points
Land Raider - 250 Points
Land Raider - 250 Points

Imperial Fists, Stormbringer Squadron
Scouts (x5); Land Speeder Storm; Heavy Flamer - 95 Points
Scouts (x5); Land Speeder Storm; Heavy Flamer - 95 Points
Scouts (x5); Land Speeder Storm; Heavy Flamer - 95 Points
Land Speeder; Heavy Flamer - 45 Points

Officio Assassinorum
Culexus Assassin - 140 Points

Total: 1248 Points

This is the list I would take if I hated everyone. This is the kind of list that causes Draws, and the people who do beat it, will find it a grueling an unFun task. This is the kind of list you bring to teach bad kids a lesson. Land Speeder Storms protect the Land Raiders from Drop Melta. The single Servo-Skull is placed in front of the Land Raiders to prevent Infiltrating Meltaguns (because Strategic is the best Warlord Table in the game), and, as usual, if you see a lone Inquisitor doing nothing by himself in any army list, he will almost always start the game in Reserve. :smallwink:

White Scars, Gladius Strike Force
- Battle Company
(W) Kor'sarro Khan - 125 Points
Chaplain - 90 Points

Tactical Squad (x5); The Imperial Space Marine + Razorback; Twin-Linked Assault Cannon, Dozer Blade - 95 Points
Tactical Squad (x5) + Razorback; Twin-Linked Assault Cannon, Dozer Blade - 95 Points
Tactical Squad (x5) + Razorback; Twin-Linked Assault Cannon, Dozer Blade - 95 Points
Tactical Squad (x5) + Razorback; Lascannon and Twin-Linked Plasma Gun - 90 Points
Tactical Squad (x5) + Razorback; Lascannon and Twin-Linked Plasma Gun - 90 Points
Tactical Squad (x5) + Razorback; Lascannon and Twin-Linked Plasma Gun - 90 Points

Assault Squad (x5); x2 Flamers + Razorback; Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer, Dozer Blade - 85 Points
Attack Bike; Multi-Melta - 50 Points

Devastators (x5) + Razorback; Twin-Linked Lascannon - 90 Points
Devastators (x5) + Razorback; Twin-Linked Lascannon - 90 Points

- 10th Company Task Force
Scouts (x5); [Boltguns] - 55 Points
Scouts (x5); [Boltguns] - 55 Points
Scouts (x5); [Boltguns] - 55 Points

Total: 1250 Points

The yellowest White Scars you'll ever see. With the right moves, and the dice not actively hating me, I'm fairly confident that this list can win most - if not all - match-ups, save against Wraithknights; In that match up I'd have to hope that the Maelstrom deck doesn't screw me. This is fairly close to the best list in the book, save for the fact that all the Tactical Squads are naked, and late game, when I start getting shelled out of my peanuts, I'm in real trouble against some opponents. This is the list we take a hacksaw to, and start min-maxing the crap out of it. What, you thought a 1250 Gladius with 9 Razorbacks was already min-maxed? Watch and learn...

White Scars, Gladius Strike Force
- Battle Company
(W) Kor'sarro Khan - 125 Points
Chaplain; The Hunter's Eye - 110 Points

Tactical Squad (x5); Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma + Rhino; Dozer Blade - 100 Points
Tactical Squad (x5); The Imperial Space Marine + Razorback; Twin-Linked Assault Cannon, Dozer Blade - 95 Points
Tactical Squad (x5) + Razorback; Twin-Linked Assault Cannon, Dozer Blade - 95 Points
Tactical Squad (x5) + Razorback; Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer, Dozer Blade - 75 Points
Tactical Squad (x5) + Razorback; Dozer Blade - 75 Points
Tactical Squad (x5); Meltagun, Combi-Melta + Drop Pod - 90 Points

Attack Bike - 40 Points
Attack Bike - 40 Points

Devastators (x5) + Razorback; Twin-Linked Assault Cannon, Dozer Blade - 95 Points
Devastators (x5); x2 Grav-Cannons and Grav-Amps + Rhino; Dozer Blade - 145 Points

- 10th Company Task Force
Scouts (x5); [Boltguns] - 55 Points
Scouts (x5); [Boltguns] - 55 Points
Scouts (x5); [Boltguns] - 55 Points

Total: 1250 Points

Spot the difference.

Bobby Baratheon

2016-10-23, 08:50 PM

I think you may have forgotten a digit in the point cost of the first devastator squad of the final list.

13_CBS

2016-10-23, 08:56 PM

The only saving grace is that GW basically said on their Facebook that they are for unbound only in 40k for now, so at least my blue downtrodden lads probably won't get any worse before they get their Xmas release. With the current trend, maybe they'll break their 15 odd year streak of getting worse with every new version / release? If they just added either ignores cover to the Icon of Flame or reroll saving throws of a 1, they might be worth 23 ppm, but I doubt that they can ever make the aspiring sorcerer worth 58 ppm unless there's a new tzeentch table where everything is incredible.

Random question, Drasius: have you ever heard of this particular Thousand Sons fandex? https://1d4chan.org/images/e/e7/Codex_Thousand_Sons_v_1.75.pdf

Renegade Paladin

2016-10-23, 10:02 PM

Won't the Plasma Guns be better in the Command Squad, since they have a Medic?
Probably. I do it that way because except for the command squad all of my storm troopers are the old Kasrkin models, so they don't match each other. But I suppose I shouldn't let aesthetics get in the way of my list building. :smalltongue:

Drasius

2016-10-24, 12:32 AM

Random question, Drasius: have you ever heard of this particular Thousand Sons fandex? https://1d4chan.org/images/e/e7/Codex_Thousand_Sons_v_1.75.pdf

I've seen the link a few times and even skimmed it once a while ago but fandexes are a waste of time since nobody will ever consider playing against it. If you are part of the <1% whose meta allows fandexes, then there are plenty to choose from, especially for thousand sons, but they remain inapplicable to the vast majority of people. Why?

Drasius

2016-10-24, 12:49 AM

Spot the difference.

There's ~20 - 30 points wasted in dozer blades and ignore cover scouting grav cannons are for winners?

I'd drop 4 of the dozer blades to hand out multi meltas to those attack bikes and think strongly about dropping one or two more for sniper rifles for the scouts too. But that's personal preference and past good luck un-immobilising rhinos on 6's. Keep the dozers on the flamer and such, but there's definitely some that won't need it.

Regardless, scary lists anyway. I think you should do well at the tournament.

bluntpencil

2016-10-24, 01:46 AM

Wouldn't the points on Plasma Guns in Rhinos be better spent on LasPlas Razorbacks? More versatile, approximately as good vs. 2+. Five points cheaper too.

Cheesegear

2016-10-24, 02:52 AM

Wouldn't the points on Plasma Guns in Rhinos be better spent on LasPlas Razorbacks?

Not necessarily. As I mentioned, when the squad inside the Vehicle is naked, the reason for the squad existing, is the Vehicle. Once the Vehicle is dead, what then? What if the Vehicle isn't dead, and is only Weapon Destroyed? Same outcome. When the guys inside the Vehicle, have their own weapons, inside the Razorback, first, the Vehicle must be destroyed, and then with correct model placement, there are three more models that need to die, before getting to the valuable Plasma weapons. There's a reason...

Tactical Squad (x5); Grav-Cannon + Rhino - 140 (105) Points

...is the best Tactical Squad (in White Scars, anyway). Because in order to get to why the squad matters - the Grav-Cannon - there's a Vehicle and four other models to destroy. Unlike a Razorback, where the Vehicle is the weapon, and a solid pop to AV11 shuts you down. There's a reason that the meta moved away from 0/9/3 (0/7/5) to an even mix of Rhinos and Razorbacks, because just Razorbacks, doesn't work as well as half-and-half. If you want to play with Razorbacks, and I mean properly, you're going to need 12 of them, maxing out that Battle Company, which can't be done in 1250.

The only thing that swapping wargear for Razorbacks is worth, is for Twin-Linked Assault Cannons. Unfortunately, Twin-Linked Assault Cannon turrets on eBay go for $25 a pop (you have to rip open a Land Raider kit to get them, and once you remove the Assault Cannon, what do you do with the rest of the kit?), so I've already hit my limit with three.

bluntpencil

2016-10-24, 03:16 AM

Not necessarily. As I mentioned, when the squad inside the Vehicle is naked, the reason for the squad existing, is the Vehicle. Once the Vehicle is dead, what then? What if the Vehicle isn't dead, and is only Weapon Destroyed? Same outcome. When the guys inside the Vehicle, have their own weapons, inside the Razorback, first, the Vehicle must be destroyed, and then with correct model placement, there are three more models that need to die, before getting to the valuable Plasma weapons. There's a reason...

Tactical Squad (x5); Grav-Cannon + Rhino - 140 (105) Points

...is the best Tactical Squad (in White Scars, anyway). Because in order to get to why the squad matters - the Grav-Cannon - there's a Vehicle and four other models to destroy. Unlike a Razorback, where the Vehicle is the weapon, and a solid pop to AV11 shuts you down. There's a reason that the meta moved away from 0/9/3 (0/7/5) to an even mix of Rhinos and Razorbacks, because just Razorbacks, doesn't work as well as half-and-half. If you want to play with Razorbacks, and I mean properly, you're going to need 12 of them, maxing out that Battle Company, which can't be done in 1250.

The only thing that swapping wargear for Razorbacks is worth, is for Twin-Linked Assault Cannons. Unfortunately, Twin-Linked Assault Cannon turrets on eBay go for $25 a pop (you have to rip open a Land Raider kit to get them, and once you remove the Assault Cannon, what do you do with the rest of the kit?), so I've already hit my limit with three.

I understand now. Thanks!

Can't you get 3rd party Assault Cannons? I've seen some good ones.

Forum Explorer

2016-10-24, 03:46 AM

Battle report of the day!

CAD
HQ
Farseer with Spirit Stones of Anath'lan: 115
5 Warlock Council, 175

Lords of War
Avatar: 195

Elites

Troops
3 Windriders with 3 scatter lasers: 81
5 Rangers: 60
10 (+1 guardian) Guardians: 99

Fast Attack

Heavy Support
Wraithlord with 2 Brightlances and ghostglaive: 145
Falcon with Brightlance, and Ghostwalk Matrix, :140

Aspect Host (+1 WS)
7 Striking Scorpians with Exarch with scorpion’s claw: 159
7 Howling Banshees with Exarch with Executioner: 111
5 Shining Spears with Exarch with Starlance: 145

Aspect Host (+1 BS)
8 Dire Avengers with Exarch (+ shimmershield): 134
5 Dark Reapers with Starshot missiles with Exarch with Eldar Missile Launcher: 172
6 Fire Dragons with Exarch: 142

He didn't have 1850, so I had some last minute adjustments made on the fly. My math may have been off, I was doing it in my head.
Total: 1850 1499

vs

Destroyer Cult with
9 Destroyers
1 Destroyer Lord with a Warsyche and a 4++

Then:
1 Lord with Warsythe
2 units of 10 warriors
3 units of 3 Tomb Blades (using the small blast shot)
1 unit of 10 Flayed Ones
1 Tesla spitting Flyer
1 unit of 5 Immortals

Mission was the scouring, neither of us got all that lucky with objective placement, with them being mostly even.

He had first turn (I failed to seize) but he didn't get too much out of it, just some dead Dark Reapers, some dead Dire Avengers, and a dead scatbike.

My turn one, I concentrated fire and killed a Tomb Blade squad, plus one from another squad. I moved up and claimed an objective which critically was a Scatterfield, giving my Avatar a 4+ cover save.

Which let my Avatar survive the full force of his Destroyers, + a warrior squad. He killed my Shining Spears in an assault with the Lord and his Warriors (I deliberately left them vulnerable to lure him closer to my Banshees, but I had hoped they'd survive the assault. Sadly I couldn't make a single 3+)

My Avatar moved up poorly, leaving him really vulnerable, but giving furious charge and rage to both my Banshees and Scorpions which could charge both of his warrior units. I Doom the Banshees' target, allowing them to kill them in two turns of combat. My Scorpion Exarch Challenges his Destroyer Lord and deals 6 wounds. He make 2 4++ and then all 4 reanimates.

After those combats resolved, my Banshees were position to charge a weakened Destroyer unit, and killed them in two rounds as well. Then they moved to attack the Immortals, who were holding a 2 point objective, and failed horribly. Well he made all 6 of his Reanimate saves over the next 4 rounds of combat, and I couldn't make a single 4+.

End result: It came down to turn 5, where my last scatbike needed to make 2 3+ saves, so it could fly and claim an objective. It failed. My dire Avengers needed to make 3/5 saves to go contest a 3 point objective. They failed. And my Banshees couldn't kill those Immortals. In the end he won by a single point.

Eldar VIP: My Banshees+ Farseer. Doom with power weapons allowed them to take down 1 Lord, a unit of Warriors and a unit of Destroyers. And they did contest the objective the Immortals were holding.

Necron VIP: Destroyer Lord + Warriors: Killed my Scorpions, my Fire Dragons, and my last Scatbike. And claimed a 2 point objective.

Yeah, really fun game, really tense. My saves went to **** on the last turn, so a turn 6 would've let him table me, but up until then it was neck and neck. Interesting fact, due to rerolls, my Avatar, and some luck, neither team failed a single leadership test, despite having something like 10 on both sides throughout the game.

Drasius

2016-10-24, 06:17 AM

Eldar VIP: My Banshees+ Farseer... And they did contest the objective the Immortals were holding.

Cool report, gotta love close games that go down to the wire, but how did banshee contest, aren't immortals ObSec?

hamishspence

2016-10-24, 06:32 AM

What really, really annoys me though, is that we got an entire unit of people with Eternal warrior. Its most likely one of the most exclusive traits in the game, and likely the most desired as well on anything that got more than one wound. It has so far been reserved for some of the biggest and most epic heroes in the game, generally the biggest names in a given faction.

It varies from edition to edition. There was a time when Tyranid Warriors got it, and all Daemons.

That said - there's been a trend toward making it rarer.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2016-10-24, 06:50 AM

Cool report, gotta love close games that go down to the wire, but how did banshee contest, aren't immortals ObSec?

Looks like the Necron player was playing a Decurion, so no ObSec.

13_CBS

2016-10-24, 07:16 AM

I've seen the link a few times and even skimmed it once a while ago but fandexes are a waste of time since nobody will ever consider playing against it. If you are part of the <1% whose meta allows fandexes, then there are plenty to choose from, especially for thousand sons, but they remain inapplicable to the vast majority of people. Why?

I was just curious about your thoughts on it, if you were to approach it as you would a real codex.

Drasius

2016-10-24, 11:04 AM

I was just curious about your thoughts on it, if you were to approach it as you would a real codex.

After a quick read through, it's as op as any other fandex. I would like my thousand sons to be able to deal with armour, but heavy 5 haywire with their ld based casting is silly. I'd also like defilers to be usable, but a 36" range ignores cover instant death demolisher cannon with the ability to be psychically buffed and gain additional range if it doesn't move breaks the game fairly hard. The ability to not only just take what is effectively all the best parts of divination and some other buffs but get reroll saves of 1 on top for free? No, that's not how a balanced Dex works.

Some of it is fine, some of it is utter trash (170 points for a single autocannon artillery piece that's only T6 to boot? Sweet unmerciful Emperor that's easily, easily the absolute worst unit in the game, even worse than a maleceptor!) and some of it is way too good. I like the flavour, it definitely gets that right, but there's a bunch of special rules that don't need to be there and the jump units don't quite fit IMHO.

Still, if you want to give it a go, your meta will let you and you don't get too carried away with the broken stuff then you could build quite a thematic, yet playable, TSons force, so I suppose in that respect, it's not too bad for a fandex.

Forum Explorer

2016-10-24, 12:31 PM

Cool report, gotta love close games that go down to the wire, but how did banshee contest, aren't immortals ObSec?

They were part of a formation, so no ObSec.

Drasius

2016-10-24, 05:40 PM

Custodes grav tank

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-DNRrDM0-LL8/WA4rgLHAAII/AAAAAAABIkA/MDTUfhlwx6UzVxSPwVzwEVgKXxUHOTrEgCLcB/s1600/2.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qPePkCmu_4s/WA4rgGi-KHI/AAAAAAABIkI/2lyxiSVTSXYw_169iYhpMZBYN_RQLRtFQCEw/s1600/14516520_1342913519061458_860971639314821011_n.jpg

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-vT2T-VBIsOs/WA4rgJLFN_I/AAAAAAABIkE/uptwkND3x-0UK5Qkl_fV_16LkHaUxbCqwCEw/s1600/1.jpg

I love me some hover tanks and this is no exception. Such a sexy beast!

Edit: also Gw stuff

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-FX44NdO6IBk/WA5r0ZI93_I/AAAAAAABIkc/bqT9hf-2QCkl0dNpgZKtLW60QcDYtk3GgCEw/s1600/14606502_1244789445541649_6264669932420862040_n.jp g

I thought they were skaven doomwheels, then after a few moments thought that they were some new dwarf thing for AoS, but no, they are generators, GW has realised that not selling terrain was dumb. Also the balewind vortex that was selling for hundreds of dollars on eBay is making a comeback to AoS, plus some other AoS thing that nobody cares about because it doesn't have broken rules like the vortex.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-7ROKy1yMKcc/WA5r0fLOkcI/AAAAAAABIkY/px0oZ1bY23EvcoFQ6Do6Nk-7Zr6Lm-eAACLcB/s1600/13879434_1244789478874979_5501480373991519058_n.jp g

Scenic bases. I'm super dirty because my Ahriman base looks suspiciously like their librarian base. I totally did mine first, I have pictures to prove it!

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0ayZLS-iEQw/WA5r1POvMwI/AAAAAAABIkw/1lDL6StYm9cmg-wSqZ4_naQhdcytPQZpwCLcB/s1600/14724531_1244789592208301_6272757598485377755_n.jp g

Stronghold assault, planetstrike and cities of death in 1 book plus a bunch of fortification datasheets.

Adrastos42

2016-10-24, 06:37 PM

[Cool stuff]

Very nice! I wonder if the Custodes grav tank will get a transport variant? Also, looking forward to Custodes grav bikers:D

I'm actually going to the Warhammer open day where presumably a lot of this will be shown off, anything anyone wants me to try and get pictures of? Or any questions you want me to ask?

EDIT: Anyone who knows FW better than me recognise the guns on that grav tank? All I can think of is the ends kind of look like the Hellhammer and Leman Russ Eradicator's main guns.

boomwolf

2016-10-24, 07:07 PM

Apparently the Custodes use tau tanks.

Anyway, love the planetary onslaught cover. and in general its cool that they brought the three into a single book.
Hopefully its with some updated rules and stuff. many of the things in the old planetstrike/citiesofdeath/strongholdassault are not really relevant in 7th edition anymore.

Cheesegear

2016-10-24, 07:10 PM

Hopefully its with some updated rules and stuff. many of the things in the old planetstrike/citiesofdeath/strongholdassault are not really relevant in 7th edition anymore.

Planetstrike is now known as Sanctus Reach, and it's very relevant.
Cities of Death is now known as Shield of Baal, and it's very relevant.
Stronghold Assault is fine.

The problem with Sanctus Reach and Shield of Baal, is that if you want the rules for Planetstrike and Cities of Death, you also have to pay for rules for Orks, Guard/Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Tyranids.

Grim Portent

2016-10-24, 07:46 PM

I wonder what those generators will do rules wise. Could be a version of Promethium Pipes but for non flamer weapons perhaps? Buffing energy weapons or something.

Also the Custodes grav tank looks nice. Kind of like a pair of HH jetbikes welded together, and they're already a pretty cool model.

I've finally gotten around to doing something with the Cataphractii Captain from the Calth box. I turned it into a Chaos Lord/World Eaters traitor Praetor.

Little heads up, 4 pretty big images in the spoiler.

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14718737_1212048768868716_211467303466485157_n.jpg ?oh=3fc48d9587c54caca4c0c5ee7c453979&oe=589E46E8

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14721569_1212048782202048_2373290376034845616_n.jp g?oh=f7e00e94c1c93e52855f9e4a8f98f791&oe=585F5FAF

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14522749_1212048805535379_8176200053435916606_n.jp g?oh=e6a0ec48f8a429203ea6aca38f3371ab&oe=588997EE

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14671281_1212048838868709_424258010373041653_n.jpg ?oh=7b291e521dccfb88fa49f9121e8398b3&oe=589134FD

LCP

2016-10-24, 11:12 PM

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-FX44NdO6IBk/WA5r0ZI93_I/AAAAAAABIkc/bqT9hf-2QCkl0dNpgZKtLW60QcDYtk3GgCEw/s1600/14606502_1244789445541649_6264669932420862040_n.jp g

I like how the rack of six pressure gauges is at about 3-4 times the height of an ordinary person. It's like the big Ad Mech skull is playing keep-away with whoever's trying to operate the generator.

Turalisj

2016-10-24, 11:51 PM

There's your problem, Tech-Priests are taller than a freaking terminator thanks to all their cybernetic enhancements.

LCP

2016-10-24, 11:56 PM

From the photo, I'm pretty sure you'd need two Terminators standing on one another's shoulders to reach those dials. And even then they'd be stretching.

I like the idea of tech-priests compensating for it with augmetics though.

magos may I read the dials
no my acolyte, no knowlessman may read the dials. they must first earn the sacrament of the extendo-legs

but the acolyte was not satisfied with his master's command, and thus the stepladder heresy began

DataNinja

2016-10-24, 11:57 PM

From the photo, I'm pretty sure you'd need two Terminators standing on one another's shoulders to reach those dials.

So that's how the admech occupy their spare time. House of Cards Terminators/Terminator Jenga.

LCP

2016-10-24, 11:59 PM

battle brothers why are we doing this

the magos said it was for science

EDIT: Also been wondering about the steamship boiler hatch and the big chimneys coming out of something that looks like it's meant to be a miniaturised tokamak/particle accelerator. Hypothesis: this is actually an STC template for a washing machine, it just generates energy as a side-effect. Clothes go in the hatch, steam goes out the chimney.

Drasius

2016-10-25, 01:01 AM

I still maintain it's a skaven doomwheel that accidentally turned left at AoS's version of Albuquerque with the skaven warp tunnels and the admech are still trying to figure out how it works and where it came from.

DataNinja

2016-10-25, 01:36 AM

the admech are still trying to figure out how it works

Like everything else. A small rodent in a wheel, constantly running.

...wait, what do you mean that's really how it works?

Cheesegear

2016-10-25, 04:00 AM

Due to popular demand and limited slots, it's been revealed that the tournament I'm going to will now be a Doubles Tournament.
- Each player still gets 1250 Points. But, if you've ever heard my thoughts on Doubles games before, you'll know that I'll now be treating the tournament as a 2500 Point tournament.
- With 2500 Points per side, the tournament will switch from Eternal War, to Maelstrom. ****ing A.

The rules;
- Each team may only take one Super-Heavy or Gargantuan. The only exception is if both players field Imperial or Renegade Knights, in which case, they'll be two. There will be no more than one Wraithknight per team, and, at worst, there will only be two Imperial Knights. In 2500 Points, I am completely okay with this.
- Each team uses one Maelstrom deck between both players. Due to the way Faction Objectives work, and how a team doesn't work quite like that, Faction Objectives will be replaced with the normal Secure Objective X 11-16. This means that Securing Objectives goes from over a third of the deck, to over half.
- Models between players are Allies of Convenience. Models controlled by the same player use the Allies Matrix as normal.
- Each player has a Warlord, but opponents may only score 1VP for Slay the Warlord, even if both Warlords on the opposing team have been destroyed.

Okay. Battle Company it is. With 2500 Points per side, and Maelstrom, to boot (as well as going to 18/36 Secure Objective X cards, plus Asc, Sup and Dom), I need to find someone in my meta with hard-ons for Shadowstrikes/Skyhammers and Orbital Intervention Forces, because I'll have Objective Secured covered. You know what really sucks? All the Eldar players in my meta actually turn into douchebags when they bring out their Eldar, so I wont partner with them. Maybe I can find a partner with 1250 Points of Wulfen and Thunderwolves. I'll run a Battle Company with enough Objective Secured to choke a whale, and my partner can bring a Champions Detachment of Wulfen and Thunderwolves. If I can find someone. :smallamused:

Drasius

2016-10-25, 07:19 AM

...You know what really sucks? All the Eldar players in my meta actually turn into douchebags when they bring out their Eldar...

...You know what really sucks? All the Eldar players in my meta actually turn into douchebags when they bring out their Eldar...

Not sure which one is more accurate...

lord_khaine

2016-10-25, 08:22 AM

Not sure which one is more accurate...

Neither for those who played Eldar since 2nd edition, the deserve the change :smallamused:

Eldan

2016-10-25, 08:31 AM

Yuuup. ALso, I've still never bought a Wraithknight.

Cheesegear

2016-10-25, 08:57 AM

Neither for those who played Eldar since 2nd edition, the deserve the change :smallamused:

Some men chose the douche life. Other men had the douche life thrust upon them by circumstance.

If you play Eldar, you're a bad person. Even if you played them before 6th, because you're still choosing to play them, now. You can quit Eldar anytime you want. You are choosing not to. :smallwink:

Requizen

2016-10-25, 09:13 AM

People in ITC are clamoring to allow Custodes and Sisters of Silence to be allowed as Elites choices for various Imperial armies, when GW has clearly said on their FB that the only legal way to take them right now is Unbound. And the really stupid thing is that Reece is agreeing with them.

As if my desire to play competitive 40k wasn't already low enough. If that's the case, just let everyone play Unbound and be done with it.

lord_khaine

2016-10-25, 10:26 AM

Drasius

2016-10-25, 11:14 AM

Neither for those who played Eldar since 2nd edition, the deserve the change :smallamused:

Just means that you've been a d-bag for 20 years, eldar have pretty much always been op (except for a bit in 5th where they thought their throats were cut because they were mid tier for half an edition).

Yuuup. ALso, I've still never bought a Wraithknight.

Still playing eldar, still a d-bag ;p

If you play Eldar, you're a bad person.

QFT

People in ITC are clamoring to allow Custodes and Sisters of Silence to be allowed as Elites choices for various Imperial armies, when GW has clearly said on their FB that the only legal way to take them right now is Unbound. And the really stupid thing is that Reece is agreeing with them.

As if my desire to play competitive 40k wasn't already low enough. If that's the case, just let everyone play Unbound and be done with it.

There's no point to banning Unbound when you can already make all the armies that were talked about as bound armies with bonuses now.

Leviathan detachment primary
240 - Flyrant
240 - Flyrant
240 - Flyrant
15 - 1x Mucolid spore
15 - 1x Mucolid spore
15 - 1x Mucolid spore

Riptide Wing
225 - Riptide, IA, EWO, Stims
220 - Riptide, EWO, Stims
220 - Riptide, EWO, Stims

Heldrake Wing
170 - Heldrake
170 - Heldrake

1770 + 70 points of whatever tyranids you care to put on the field, perhaps more Mucolid or a venomthrope.

That's a (stupid and unoptimised) legal army, and not far off what some people were afraid of when Unbound because a thing and scarier things exist in its bound armies anyway. In fact, I think the challenge would be to create an Unbound list that could take on the top lists in the tournament circuit at the moment.

Still, as cheese has pointed out repeatedly in the past, it's often GW's way to give us the tools to do what we want, only for tournament restrictions to ban it for arbitrary reasons. Having said that, when most of the arbitrary restrictions were lifted for a while I distinctly remember a series of all eldar all the time victories. IIRC, there was a 8 eldar in the top 10 at ... I want to say NOVA back when they tried it a few years ago?

DataNinja

2016-10-25, 11:18 AM

Some men chose the douche life. Other men had the douche life thrust upon them by circumstance.

If you play Eldar, you're a bad person. Even if you played them before 6th, because you're still choosing to play them, now. You can quit Eldar anytime you want. You are choosing not to. :smallwink:

Now now! its called loyalty!
When certain models have led your army for some 20 years now, standing by you in brilliant victory and crushing defeats, though weird nerfs and random changes, though entire editions without an update to obsolete rules.. then you dont abbandon them just because the meta suddenly and unexpectedly changes to favor them! *raises fist to the sky, queue dramatic thunder*

Alternatively, it's called "I-can't-afford-a-new-army". :smalltongue:

Besides, like, 50% of my army is Guardians. No Jetbikes, no Wraithknight. No vehicles, even (because, y'know, who needed to buy those when people gave me their spare Guardians for free, am I right?) Who needs to win? :smallamused:

Requizen

2016-10-25, 11:24 AM

There's no point to banning Unbound when you can already make all the armies that were talked about as bound armies with bonuses now.

Leviathan detachment primary
240 - Flyrant
240 - Flyrant
240 - Flyrant
15 - 1x Mucolid spore
15 - 1x Mucolid spore
15 - 1x Mucolid spore

Riptide Wing
225 - Riptide, IA, EWO, Stims
220 - Riptide, EWO, Stims
220 - Riptide, EWO, Stims

Heldrake Wing
170 - Heldrake
170 - Heldrake

1770 + 70 points of whatever tyranids you care to put on the field, perhaps more Mucolid or a venomthrope.

That's a (stupid and unoptimised) legal army, and not far off what some people were afraid of when Unbound because a thing and scarier things exist in its bound armies anyway. In fact, I think the challenge would be to create an Unbound list that could take on the top lists in the tournament circuit at the moment.

Still, as cheese has pointed out repeatedly in the past, it's often GW's way to give us the tools to do what we want, only for tournament restrictions to ban it for arbitrary reasons. Having said that, when most of the arbitrary restrictions were lifted for a while I distinctly remember a series of all eldar all the time victories. IIRC, there was a 8 eldar in the top 10 at ... I want to say NOVA back when they tried it a few years ago?
I honestly agree, I'd be fine allowing unbound. The original complain was "but what about 9 Riptide armies?!?!?". Well, that's called Riptide Wing and you can take it with bells on.

I'm fine if they want to allow Unbound and let Sisters of Silence and Custodes in that way, but give everyone else Unbound while you're at it. I'll take my Necron army + Wraithknight/Stormsurge, thank you very much.

LCP

2016-10-25, 11:37 AM

If you play Eldar, you're a bad person. Even if you played them before 6th, because you're still choosing to play them, now. You can quit Eldar anytime you want. You are choosing not to.

If (as you've frequently acknowledged) Marines are second only to Eldar, then by this logic what does that make you?

Shaming people for sticking with a particular army seems like a **** move to me. In my experience at least, the first army people start collecting is rarely chosen on grounds of how competitive it is - it's because it has some kind of aesthetic appeal. Everyone I've known who's started a specific army explicitly because they thought it was competitive has been someone who was already an experienced tournament player - and even in those cases, a lot of the time they'd just borrow someone else's models.

Either you accept that you are playing to win, in which case it really is important that the game be balanced out of the box - whether that's with RAW or after applying tournament comp - or you accept that you're not playing to win, in which case why are you ragging on someone for bringing their lovingly painted models just because someone at GW priced them too cheaply? Either way there should be no reason to call people douches just for daring to show up with the models they own.

LeSwordfish

2016-10-25, 12:26 PM

"I'm taking a 1500 point list of yellow white scars to a 1250 tournament. But eldar are bad."

Wraith

2016-10-25, 01:19 PM

Shaming people for sticking with a particular army seems like a **** move to me.

Hear, hear.

Case in point: I play Daemonhunters. No, not "Grey Knights" - all my stuff was bought pre-2011, which means that in ~4000 points I have 5 models that aren't made of metal, because they're gorgeous and I love them.

Cue 2011: "Draigo is stupid! Dreadknights are broken! Psychic tanks are ridiculous! Coteaz is insane! 2++ is idiocy! If you take a plasma siphon you deserve to burn! Matt Ward is the anti-christ!" :smallyuk:

Get bent, the lot of you. I play Daemonhunters, and I'm not doing it to make other people happy whether my book is good or bad or merely okay.

LCP

2016-10-25, 01:24 PM

5 models that aren't made of metal

High five!

(hand goes clang, paint immediately chips off hand)

Grim Portent

2016-10-25, 01:29 PM

High five!

(hand goes clang, paint immediately chips off hand)

Followed by arms falling off. :smalltongue: Stupid metal tyranids. Damn Hive Tyrant probably cost me years off my life.

Wraith

2016-10-25, 02:26 PM

I'm not going to lie, I do have a squad of Terminators who are wielding Nemesis Pimp Canes, due to the almost perfect way in which the top half of their Halberd has snapped off and I haven't found a suitable way to reattach them.....

Grim Portent

2016-10-25, 02:28 PM

Just look for some little balls, perhaps the ones from the Chaos Spawn kit, glue them on top and paint them silver. :smalltongue:

Wraith

2016-10-25, 02:36 PM

Honestly, the best way - assuming I don't just lose patience and replace the entire arm - is to cut the remaining haft out of the broken piece and filing the bottom of the blade flat, so that it marries smoothly with the Terminator's fist. It means they'll have a short spear, rather than a halberd, but they're far too fine to pin and trying to glue them straight back is an exercise in madness.

Similarly, despite my fondness for the army I am not in a position to comment upon the colour of Grey Knights' balls.... but if I were, they'd have to be gold. Nothing but the best bling for my lads. :smalltongue:

Grim Portent

2016-10-25, 02:59 PM

I am familiar with the pain of a broken halberd sadly. I tried a small Grey Knights force for a while back in 5th edition, half because I was wondering what all the hype was about and half because I liked the models a lot (originally bought some for conversion bits), and converted a Master of the Forge into a Grey Knights Techmarine, complete with head swap, backpack swap and arm swaps. Gave him a halberd that stuck out straight from his body. Damn thing broke far too often and I quickly tired of the Grey Knights, they just aren't my thing in many ways.

Poor guy is currently just sitting lost and alone in a box somewhere waiting for me to return to him and refurbish him. :smallfrown:

Cheesegear

2016-10-25, 03:51 PM

If (as you've frequently acknowledged) Marines are second only to Eldar, then by this logic what does that make you?

Not an Eldar player. :smalltongue:

Either way there should be no reason to call people douches just for daring to show up with the models they own.

Sure there is. People can take a joke, and it's laughs all 'round, as Eldar players admit that their Codex is broken and they'll take the fact that they'll be ostracised for no fault of their own, de-power themselves by taking Dire Avengers and Rangers, instead of only Jetbikes. In this way, making Eldar players admit to the 'joke' not entirely being a joke, games against Eldar players can be fun, but they rarely are. Because I've seen someone randomly put together an Eldar list and still come out with a list that isn't terrible. For an individual person, that's great. For a game between two people, face-to-face...Social contract.
Telling Eldar players that they're bad people, works out.

Alternatively, Eldar players can't take a joke, flip out and try to justify themselves. Usually by targeting Marine players. Except what they fail to realise is that Marines aren't Eldar, and Eldar are still better, because you can randomly put together a list and still win games because half the units in the Eldar book are basically broken. As bats* insane as a Gladius is, Eldar players can beat it by barely trying, seeing as how everything they own can take a S6 weapon with a bajillion shots, and when the Marines come out of their Metal Bawkses, every unit that isn't packing a S6 weapon that easily cracks Rhinos/Razorbacks, carries Rending weapons than annihilate 5-man squads that a Marine player has to take in order to fit in the Gladius.
Telling Eldar players that they're bad people, works out, because then they'll justify themselves, and they'll fail.

"I'm taking a 1500 point list of yellow white scars to a 1250 tournament. But eldar are bad."

Yeah. But I'm not taking Eldar. :smallwink:
Also, I'm going to a tournament, so the Gladius is never off the table. But, the issue is that when I don't take the Gladius, in a normal/casual game with friends, when I play against Eldar players, it's not fun, because I never have a chance of winning in the first place, so why play the game if the outcome has already been determined? This is why people don't go to tournaments, because they can't win, and they have no chance of winning, so why show up? This is what it's like to play an Eldar player on a normal day.

Once, I took 6 Necron Tomb Blades to a Kill Team tournament, at the start of the day, I looked around the room, and didn't see my friend who plays SM Scouts with Rifles and Cloaks, and I didn't see my friend who plays Death Company, and I didn't see Plague Marines, etc. I immediately felt bad, because I had no chance of losing to anyone, and the game I did lose, was only by 1 Point (in a VP tournament, so 1 Point isn't even bad), and to another Necron player, at that. I felt bad, because I couldn't lose. As in, I already knew that I wouldn't lose, and was still going to play games, knowing that I've brought a gun to a knife-fight, no, a fist-fight. But I'm justified 'cause it was a tournament, right? Play to win.

Except if I played Eldar, even casually, I know that I would feel that way all the time, in non-competitive games, with my friends, who now wont play games with me because I play Eldar.

LCP

2016-10-25, 04:21 PM

People can take a joke, and it's laughs all 'round

Ah yes, the 3 or 4 eldar players who responded to your comment were all falling about laughing.

"Can't you take a joke" is pretty much the catchphrase of bullies everywhere.

Social contract. Telling Eldar players that they're bad people, works out.

I tend to think of social contracts as being layered. "Don't call someone names over toy soldiers" would rank higher than "ensure optimum toy soldiery through name-calling". Particularly when the desired behaviour you're trying to produce is either "buy a whole new army" (i.e. a killer combo of "don't be poor" and "screw the time and effort you put into those models") or "stop playing the game".

Most importantly though, if you delete Eldar from the game - which is what the behaviour you're advocating aims to effectively achieve - every argument you just made works against you as a Space Marine player when playing against any non-Space Marine player. I still don't see anything that negates that point. If I'm e.g. a Thousand Sons player, what do I care about the academic distinction between the top 2 codexes when my chances of beating either are pretty much zero?

I really think under the "ostracise people for using broken codexes" model what you really have to do to be consistent is have everyone playing Sisters (or whatever you'd rank the worst codex to be).

Cheesegear

2016-10-25, 04:48 PM

Ah yes, the 3 or 4 eldar players who responded to your comment were all falling about laughing.

If I put the statement in blue text, would that have helped?
...Except that I'm not entirely joking.

I did notice that they all tried to straw man me, though. :smallwink:

I tend to think of social contracts as being layered. "Don't call someone names over toy soldiers" would rank higher than "ensure optimum toy soldiery through name-calling". Particularly when the desired behaviour you're trying to produce is either "buy a whole new army" (i.e. a killer combo of "don't be poor" and "screw the time and effort you put into those models") or "stop playing the game".

The issue is, Eldar players can't help it. It isn't possible to downgrade themselves, unless they take the two or three only bad units in their Codex, and I can't ask them to do that, because that's actually not fair.
Eldar players can not help that their Codex is broke. Yes, more broke than the Gladius. It's not their fault. They can't do anything about it. But it has happened. And playing games against Eldar players is unFun, because there's nothing that anyone can do.

At best, you can bust in with #NotAllEldar, but it doesn't matter, because the damage is already done. Because I've been abused by Eldar more times than I can count in both 6th and 7th Ed., and the Eldar players weren't even meaning to. Casual Eldar are still broke.

Most importantly though, if you delete Eldar from the game - which is what the behaviour you're advocating aims to effectively achieve - every argument you just made works against you as a Space Marine player when playing against any non-Space Marine player.

Nice straw man. Except that several times, I have said that both Eldar and Marines need to be removed from the game. Several times. The only way to compete with Eldar is if you do play Space Marines. I'm lucky. I play Space Marines, and they can compete. Everyone else, though?

If your opponent plays Eldar, and you don't play Space Marines, you lose. End the game. Don't play. You're done. I'm saying this, as someone who plays Space Marines. I know what it takes to beat Eldar, and even I don't even come close some games. I. Don't. Even. Come. Close. Understand? And I run bright yellow White Scars! If that's what it's like for me, what special Hell must everyone else go through when they play against Eldar?

Stop saying I don't get to say anything because I play Marines. I have acknowledged the problem many, many times, and I know, I know that the only reason that I do compete with Eldar on any level, is because I play Marines. But that's the thing, Marines. Aren't. Eldar. Read that again. Because I don't think you've read it right. Only Marines can compete with Eldar, and then sometimes, not even then.

I really think under the "ostracise people for using broken codexes" model what you really have to do to be consistent is have everyone playing Sisters (or whatever you'd rank the worst codex to be).

FFS. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that if you aren't getting games because your friends wont play you, you need to de-power your list. You just have to, or you wont get games, because people will resent you. Is it fair? No. But emotions aren't fair. Other people wont like you. I don't advocate it. But it's going to happen. Because "Eldar players are bad people." isn't actually entirely a joke.

When I play against newbies, I can choose not to play the Gladius. I can put Plasmaguns in Rhinos that I actually paid points for. I can take Devastators with Missiles instead of Drop Melta. I can not use Drop Pods at all and spam Scouts-with-Boltguns. The Space Marine Codex has bad options, that I can take, on purpose, in order to actually make a game that's competitive, without giving the impression that I 'let' my opponent win because they're new. I do everything smart, and I can still lose by 1 or 2 points, because my Codex has less good options that I can take, in order to get games with my friends.

Eldar players. Can't. Do. This. In a casual setting, Eldar players. Can't. Take. Bad. Options. There simply aren't any. The only way that an Eldar player can lose, is if they deliberately try to lose. By taking Guardians and Howling Banshees. By 'forgetting' to shoot with certain units. By 'forgetting' that their Farseers are only 100 Points and can cast Presience and Guide at the same time. To lose, an Eldar player has to not roll 6s when they shoot. They can't control that. There's nothing they can do. It's just the way it is.

EDIT:
Also, the White Scars' Gladius is shut down by 34 Points worth of Servo-Skulls. It's pretty easy.

LCP

2016-10-25, 05:48 PM

"I'm joking (but not really)" is not really a step up from "can't you take a joke?". I hate to pull a 2016 Godwin but you know you're in shady territory when you find yourself re-using Donald Trump's lines.

I did notice that they all tried to straw man me, though.

You're imagining things. Let's review:

Now now! its called loyalty!
When certain models have led your army for some 20 years now, standing by you in brilliant victory and crushing defeats, though weird nerfs and random changes, though entire editions without an update to obsolete rules.. then you dont abbandon them just because the meta suddenly and unexpectedly changes to favor them! *raises fist to the sky, queue dramatic thunder*

Alternatively, it's called "I-can't-afford-a-new-army". :smalltongue:

Besides, like, 50% of my army is Guardians. No Jetbikes, no Wraithknight. No vehicles, even (because, y'know, who needed to buy those when people gave me their spare Guardians for free, am I right?) Who needs to win? :smallamused:

"I'm taking a 1500 point list of yellow white scars to a 1250 tournament. But eldar are bad."

If we accept the definition of "straw manning" as "attributing any position to Cheesegear" or even "referring to Cheesegear in any way" then I see one out of three. I guess in Australia that's 100%? I'm not familiar with Upside Down Maths.

On the rest of your post: as far as I can see, you seem to be arguing that if an Eldar player deliberately selects suboptimal choices, then they are playing to lose, but if a Marine player does it, they are just being your friendly chum, out for a friendly game. To use two of your examples, I fail to see the distinction between a Marine player spamming boltgun scouts and an Eldar player spamming Guardians/Banshees. I'm pretty sure (they can correct me on this if I'm wrong) that there are several Eldar players in this thread who have posted previously about having a fairly high ratio of losses in friendly games. Clearly they're managing to build beatable Eldar lists somehow, and still having enough fun to continue playing.

But even if I accept as given your argument that Marines can be toned down whereas Eldar can't - even if the Eldar codex was just a series of killer tourney lists that could not be fielded in any other configuration - why could an Eldar player, turning up at his local club, not just say "hey guys I'm using Eldar, you play 1850 and I'll play 1500" (or whatever handicap he felt was appropriate). Why is that somehow a worse alternative to shaming this person and insisting they don't bring their models, even if they can't afford a different army, or are very attached to those models - or even if they just don't want to play another army, because they like Eldar? Why is it wrong to like a particular army?

I played plenty of games against WFB daemons with their 7th edition army book, which was just as far ahead of the pack as Eldar are now. I lost the vast majority of those games. I never thought that my opponents were "bad people" just for owning their army and wanting to use it. Even in a joking-not-joking sort of way. One of the club regulars had a fantastically-painted daemon army; I enjoyed playing him just to see his models. Not every game, obviously, but still.

Also, the White Scars' Gladius is shut down by 34 Points worth of Servo-Skulls. It's pretty easy.

I've read your White Scars list. How does a servo-skull shut down ~300pts of free vehicles in a 1250pt game? You just seem to be falling foul of your own prediction here:

Telling [high-tier codex] players that they're bad people, works out, because then they'll justify themselves, and they'll fail.

Cheesegear

2016-10-25, 05:59 PM

I've read your White Scars list. How does a servo-skull shut down ~300pts of free vehicles in a 1250pt game? You just seem to be falling foul of your own prediction here:

Not being able to Scout means you're a parking lot of AV11. It's garbage. Most armies can pop AV11 without even trying. And it's a Parking Lot, which deserves to die.

LCP

2016-10-25, 06:02 PM

It's a +25% free boost to the size of your army. That could be Conscripts with knives and it'd still be huge.

Forum Explorer

2016-10-25, 06:12 PM

High five!

(hand goes clang, paint immediately chips off hand)

Followed by arms falling off. :smalltongue: Stupid metal tyranids. Damn Hive Tyrant probably cost me years off my life.

Ah, the glories of my 'battle scarred' Wraithguard and 'malfunctioning stealth field' Wraithlord. :smallbiggrin:

I'm not going to lie, I do have a squad of Terminators who are wielding Nemesis Pimp Canes, due to the almost perfect way in which the top half of their Halberd has snapped off and I haven't found a suitable way to reattach them.....

Now I really hope you've embraced their Pimpiness and blinged them out. :smallwink:

Not an Eldar player. :smalltongue:

Sure there is. People can take a joke, and it's laughs all 'round, as Eldar players admit that their Codex is broken and they'll take the fact that they'll be ostracised for no fault of their own, de-power themselves by taking Dire Avengers and Rangers, instead of only Jetbikes. In this way, making Eldar players admit to the 'joke' not entirely being a joke, games against Eldar players can be fun, but they rarely are. Because I've seen someone randomly put together an Eldar list and still come out with a list that isn't terrible. For an individual person, that's great. For a game between two people, face-to-face...Social contract.
Telling Eldar players that they're bad people, works out.

Alternatively, Eldar players can't take a joke, flip out and try to justify themselves. Usually by targeting Marine players. Except what they fail to realise is that Marines aren't Eldar, and Eldar are still better, because you can randomly put together a list and still win games because half the units in the Eldar book are basically broken. As bats* insane as a Gladius is, Eldar players can beat it by barely trying, seeing as how everything they own can take a S6 weapon with a bajillion shots, and when the Marines come out of their Metal Bawkses, every unit that isn't packing a S6 weapon that easily cracks Rhinos/Razorbacks, carries Rending weapons than annihilate 5-man squads that a Marine player has to take in order to fit in the Gladius.
Telling Eldar players that they're bad people, works out, because then they'll justify themselves, and they'll fail.

Yeah. But I'm not taking Eldar. :smallwink:
Also, I'm going to a tournament, so the Gladius is never off the table. But, the issue is that when I don't take the Gladius, in a normal/casual game with friends, when I play against Eldar players, it's not fun, because I never have a chance of winning in the first place, so why play the game if the outcome has already been determined? This is why people don't go to tournaments, because they can't win, and they have no chance of winning, so why show up? This is what it's like to play an Eldar player on a normal day.

Once, I took 6 Necron Tomb Blades to a Kill Team tournament, at the start of the day, I looked around the room, and didn't see my friend who plays SM Scouts with Rifles and Cloaks, and I didn't see my friend who plays Death Company, and I didn't see Plague Marines, etc. I immediately felt bad, because I had no chance of losing to anyone, and the game I did lose, was only by 1 Point (in a VP tournament, so 1 Point isn't even bad), and to another Necron player, at that. I felt bad, because I couldn't lose. As in, I already knew that I wouldn't lose, and was still going to play games, knowing that I've brought a gun to a knife-fight, no, a fist-fight. But I'm justified 'cause it was a tournament, right? Play to win.

Except if I played Eldar, even casually, I know that I would feel that way all the time, in non-competitive games, with my friends, who now wont play games with me because I play Eldar.

I thought about it, but then I realized that, hey, I don't need to justify myself to you. You are a random person on the internet. So I'll keep playing and having fun with my Eldar like I have been for the past 15+ years. I will say, that no, you aren't joking, you're just being a rude jerk.

Also, despite how much you protest otherwise, every time you describe your meta it comes off as incredibly hyper competitive. (In comparison to mine, anyways). I mean you've more or less said, Eldar always win, and Dark Eldar always lose, and that simply isn't the case, in fact it's barely true at all in my meta.

Cheesegear

2016-10-25, 06:17 PM

It's a +25% free boost to the size of your army. That could be Conscripts with knives and it'd still be huge.

When Daemons and Genestealer Cults can Summon?
When Chaos Marines are fielding Cultists that respawn for free and gain Outflank when they respawn? Grabbing Objectives all day.
- Ditto for Tyranids (except coming out of a tunnel in your opponent's DZ)

Free stuff only matters if it's good. I've seen actual games where someone goes 1000 Points vs. 1500. Intentionlly, and the guy playing 1500 still loses, because the 1000 Points the other guy brought was armed for bear, while the 1500 was garbage. Rhinos and Razorbacks aren't good, unless they Scout. Since it's totally easy to prevent Scouting, either with 34 Points worth of Servo-Skulls (even in Desperate or CtA Alliances, the Inquisitor starts the game in Reserve), or the other team brings Infiltrating Scout-blockers. It's not that hard. My Gladius has been beaten a bunch of times by people who play the game well, with a correct army list, that is geared towards being able to burst AV11 because it's the meta. If my opponent goes first because Coteaz Seizes the Initiative (Coteaz doesn't have to be on the board, and still brings 34 points of Servo-Skulls), then Tau, Eldar, dedicated shooty Orks (at least 5 Shokk Attack Guns). Does anyone remember this special Hell (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20478089&postcount=404)? (army list at the bottom)

Free Transports is only good because of the mobility it gives you (i.e; Scout). Take that away (i.e; Don't bring Kor'sarro, your opponent has Servo-Skulls or has Infiltrated against you because Strategic is amazing), and the Gladius sucks, because the guys inside will be MSU, and then you just start turkey shooting Marines in Power Armour, and you should be able to do that.

The only truly unfair Gladius, is the one with 9+ Drop Pods. Which I know is unfair, which is why I don't play it. I could. But I wont. Because I know if I do, I will never get games again. Free Rhinos/Razorbacks is perfectly beatable, because AV11 isn't strong, and if you can't beat Marines on foot then you probably wont beat a lot of things.

LCP

2016-10-25, 06:27 PM

Never said that other free stuff was A-OK. Just that this particular free stuff was big. With any of the examples you gave I think it would be a challenge to hit 25% of your pre-existing points, and even if you did those free troops wouldn't have been on the board from T1. (They also rely on dice rolls and can be shut down by e.g. killing a psyker, or not killing a nothingy cultist unit; your free transports are included at list building and there's nothing the opponent can do).

In any case, you're going into the weeds on this point ("justifying yourself"?) and I'm not particularly interested in following. The main point - about shunning people over their choice of army - I think is made.

Cheesegear

2016-10-25, 06:37 PM

The main point - about shunning people over their choice of army - I think is made.

I really want to use a bunch of buzzwords. But I think taking those phrases in the context of toy soldiers is taking it too far.

The Eldar Codex is strong. Really, really strong. I say this, as someone who takes the Gladius to tournaments, and loses. To Eldar. What does that mean for everyone else? As broken as people think the Gladius is, it still loses to Eldar who don't even try very hard.

#NotAllEldar

Eldar has a stupid strong Codex. Not everyone plays it that way. But it doesn't matter. Because even a bad Eldar list is still better than some Codecies' best lists.
Not everyone who plays Eldar is a bad person (if I'd used blue text, pretty sure this whole conversation would have been avoided). But there are enough bad people who do play Eldar to ruin it for everyone.

Drasius

2016-10-25, 06:41 PM

Ha! This went down exactly as I expected.
- Someone finally acknowledges the elephant in the room that is eldar in a casual sett
- The eldar players get their panties in a bunch falling over themselves taking the high ground and almost fainting at the indignity (while throwing insults of their own in an undignified manner).
- Cheese tries to explain his original point of view better but makes a hash of it and only makes things worse.
- Now the eldar players will really come out swinging and it will become nasty and personal
- One more round of back and forth will happen
- Both parties agree that nothing productive will come from their current interactions and it will stay at a barely controlled simmer and the topic will get changed (though the occasional veiled insult will get made by both parties).
- Eventually the thread dies because one side leaves and the other side doesn't have enough to say to keep things going on their own.

Nice job ruining things. Damn eldar...

Since I can't stop this trainwreck now that it's started, I'm going to weigh in as one of the have nots and say that Cheese has mostly hit the nail on the head. If I play a random game, if I play against marines, if I request no gladius or grav spam, I can usually make a game of it. I don't even bother playing against eldar anymore since it just involves me setting up and putting away models. With crons I can hope to get into melee on objectives and win, but they're almost as bad as eldar. We don't have any daemons players who bring the cheese, so they are one aspect of the big 4 that I don't have to worry about.

The worst part is that the eldar players insist that their list really isn't that bad and that they're different to all the other eldar d-bags. I finally cave and look at their list and raise an eyebrow.
"What? I've only got 1 wraithknight and 2 units of jetbikes, and only one of those has scatterlasers!"
"And the aspect host of warp spiders?"
"So? They're not even that good!"
"Pass"

That's a strong part of what cheese and I are talking about. I'm not sure if it's the haughty, better than thou background of the eldar that seems to bring out the worst in people, but in my experience, otherwise reasonable human beings turn into total d-bags when their eldar come out of their case.

I used to take my thousand sons to tournaments. I wouldn't come first, but I would rack up a win or two and give some people a fright. Now? No chance. You say you shouldn't have to buy a different army so we will play you? Well we shouldn't have to buy a different army to play against you with a chance of winning either, but that's the situation we're in. Either everyone else has to buy a new army or you do, and as with most things, the path of least resistance wins out.

Even if you discount all of that, there's one last thing that really hammers it home. I don't have fun playing against eldar. The only other army that even comes close to being as unfun is tau. Think about what that means.

Also, since it seems appropriate, I'm going to repost my favourite 40k comic;

http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/bolsmisfire34.png

Also, the White Scars' Gladius is shut down by 34 Points worth of Servo-Skulls. It's pretty easy.

Khan is shut down by the now mandatory inquisitor due to the only thing as prominent as eldar scum is marine scum of all colours bandwagoning onto the white scars train. The fact that you have a Gladius with a couple of hundred points more than the other side, all of it objective secured and highly mobile, doesn't suddenly unhappen because someone else was forced to bring an inquisitor or automatically lose (unless they are playing eldar). "Teh oh noes! I have to start in my own deployment zone like everyone else. That means I'll have to move and only get 3 grav shots first turn. I don't even have room to deploy all these free rhino chassis if I can't start half way up the board." Boo freaking hoo, cry me a river.

Edit: ninja'ed 7 times in the time it took me to write that.

LCP

2016-10-25, 06:41 PM

@Cheesegear: I don't see anything there that isn't just a more concise repeat of what you said in post #217. Rather than rehash the argument, I direct you to post #218, paragraphs 4-6.

@Drasius: I'm not an Eldar player*! Everything I've said applies just as much to Wraith's experience with GK, or any other army that rides the codex release rollercoaster.

*briefly had a small Eldar army in 3rd Ed but I don't think that counts

Blackhawk748

2016-10-25, 06:42 PM

I see what Cheese is saying, its like the Vanilla Marines from 5th. There where enough D-Bags that it ruined the army for a ton of people (myself included for awhile) even though there where pleny of lists that werent BS. Also ya, the Eldar Codex is insane when a randomly constructed one could be the best Ork list available. Hell if you can construct a list off of random choices and still have good odds of winning, its a bad codex.

In short i disagree with calling Eldar players bad people when there are DBags chucking out 3+ Riptides and 3+ Wraithknights who are the real bad people

Khan is shut down by the now mandatory inquisitor due to the only thing as prominent as eldar scum is marine scum of all colours bandwagoning onto the white scars train. The fact that you have a Gladius with a couple of hundred points more than the other side, all of it objective secured and highly mobile, doesn't suddenly unhappen because someone else was forced to bring an inquisitor or automatically lose (unless they are playing eldar). "Teh oh noes! I have to start in my own deployment zone like everyone else. That means I'll have to move and only get 3 grav shots first turn. I don't even have room to deploy all these free rhino chassis if I can't start half way up the board." Boo freaking hoo, cry me a river.

Here f***ing here. A buddy used to play Imperial Fists and then jumped onto the White Scars bandwagon in 6th. Ill be honest when i say i got Ad Mech partially to be able to absolutely destroy him. The other reason is cuz i want my army of cyborg zombies and cybered to all hell soldiers, but their ability to make Marines die in droves is a very delicious icing.

Cheesegear

2016-10-25, 06:46 PM

In short i disagree with calling Eldar players bad people when there are DBags chucking out 3+ Riptides and 3+ Wraithknights who are the real bad people

I once took a Gladius with a Riptide Wing. My opponent looked me in the eyes and said "You are never using that list again." I have three Riptides on my shelf that haven't been used since that game.

Blackhawk748

2016-10-25, 06:50 PM

I once took a Gladius with a Riptide Wing. My opponent looked me in the eyes and said "You are never using that list again." I have three Riptides on my shelf that haven't been used since that game.

Theres a very good reason for that. 1-2 Riptides (without FnP) can be dealt with by most armies. Anymore than that (or frankly just about any number of them with FnP) are such a pain in the a** to deal with unless you have Grav that they should go die in a fire. (yes. I hate those things.)

Drasius

2016-10-25, 07:16 PM

...why could an Eldar player, turning up at his local club, not just say "hey guys I'm using Eldar, you play 1850 and I'll play 1500" (or whatever handicap he felt was appropriate). Why is that somehow a worse alternative to shaming this person and insisting they don't bring their models, even if they can't afford a different army, or are very attached to those models - or even if they just don't want to play another army, because they like Eldar?

I've seen this play out, 1850 of eldar vs 2500 of BA. The BA were effectively tabled turn 4, the eldar player lost something like 6 models. Giving away that sort of handicap is shaming the opponent, even if it's not intentional and cheapens their wins since "they only won because they took more points" and adds extra gravitas to their losses "ha, even with an extra [X] points you still lost".

Why is it wrong to like a particular army?

Because eldar attracts d*ckheads and even on the off chance that you just have a fetish for elves in space and you're actually the nicest person ever, you're going to be tarred with the same brush because the other 95% of people who have the same plastic toy man dollies are total **** *****.

LCP

2016-10-25, 07:29 PM

I've seen this play out, 1850 of eldar vs 2500 of BA. The BA were effectively tabled turn 4, the eldar player lost something like 6 models.

That sounds like an extreme case, not a good benchmark. If the imbalance were really this bad overall then tournament podium places shouldn't be approximately 100% Eldar, they should be exactly 100% Eldar, no exceptions.

Giving away that sort of handicap is shaming the opponent, even if it's not intentional and cheapens their wins since "they only won because they took more points" and adds extra gravitas to their losses "ha, even with an extra [X] points you still lost".

I'd disagree. Points handicaps (in the opposite direction - giving extra points) were in the 8th Ed. ETC comp for the bottom three armies in WFB (Beastmen, Brets and Tomb Kings)*. I never met a Beastman, Bret or TK player whose attitude to those extra points was "I don't want your pity". It's just an acknowledgement that the base game is unbalanced, and a sticking-plaster fix to rebalance it without making controversial changes to the rules. This was the top-flight tournament comp in Europe too - the people concerned were plenty competitive.

*They scaled depending on how many of the books' "crutch" units the player took, but they were there.

Because eldar attracts d*ckheads and even on the off chance that you just have a fetish for elves in space and you're actually the nicest person ever, you're going to be tarred with the same brush because the other 95% of people who have the same plastic toy man dollies are total **** *****.

It really sounds like there are some specific people you know personally who you are venting about through this discussion. In any case I don't find this kind of phrasing gels well with previously accusing Eldar players in this thread of throwing "undignified insults" and getting "nasty and personal".

I can only speak from my personal experience, but I've lost tournament games against highly competitive people (who I don't think I'd be friends with outside the context of the game) using top-tier army books that I've enjoyed much more than games I've played and won (or drawn - clock-running being a frequent feature) against a certain kind of player, regardless of what army book that player is using. In an environment like 7th Ed I can see how that type of player would flock to the Eldar codex, but I don't think that justifies talking down to the Eldar players here as if they're all complicit in the same asshattery. You say "be tarred with the same brush" in the passive but you're definitively one of the people doing the tarring here.

This comes back around to the main point I was trying to make earlier I guess: if painting everyone who uses a certain book as evil fun-ruiners is how you "comp" your games, with a sorry-not-sorry to those who aren't jerks out to ruin your fun, but are just trying to have fun themselves (which I will continue to assume is the majority of people), then the cure is worse than the disease.

Vaz

2016-10-25, 07:59 PM

Wow, **** the stereotyping in this thread. No-one comes onto the internet to read **** like this. Get better gaming groups/don't play the ********s/organise houserules. I'd much rather play an Eldar player than Drasius or Cheesegear, going by the comments here.

It seems to be that Eldar players genuinely don't populate the internet at all. Like don't participate in any online discussion, whatsoever, and scrotes trying to pull the moral high ground because they play broken ("but it has counters!" they whine) armies that aren't AS broken as Eldar is honestly one of the most hypocritical/stupid arguments I've ever seen. Are you seriously not over "but they did it first".

Cut the ****, and go back to talking about your little army men with actual constructive discussions that I do enjoy reading more than baiting each other with quasi-intelligent veiled insults. That is more cancerous to the hobby than a broken army. Grow up.

LordDavenport

2016-10-25, 09:45 PM

Mildly related note, I have tried to read all of the latest codexes, but can't physically bring myself to look at the eldar codex. Like, eldar art physically hurts my eyes. I try, psyching myself up. "it is only pictures of space elves, you can do this." Then the pin head helmets, oh god the pin head helmets. I look at a page, then immediately close the book in disgust, bile on my tongue. A few months later I go "It couldn't have been that bad. I have even enjoyed eldar art on /tg/, I must have been overreacting." I open the codex again, and once more I flee. My eyes burn. I howl at the moon "that helmet was bigger then its torso. No head should be that long." Slowly, Gradually, I collect my sanity, move on. Ever so carefully I burn the memories from my mind. Their are flashes, but over the weeks then months they fade. Finally clear in head and heart, I am at peace.

Much later, when considering some theory crafting, I wonder why I haven't read the Eldar codex. Such a foolish oversight, why, I have it on the shelf right there, bound in chains of blessed silver and oiled electrum. Wondering why I went to such lengths to seal the tome, I begin to undo the bindings. I remove warnings, writing them off as a simple fancy. Finally, the ghastly cover is revealed. If at that moment you asked me what was on the cover, I would say a battle scene. Were you to press me for a more precise description, I would try to focus. Then my eyes would slowly glaze over, and if asked again I would babel dazedly.

In my hands is a book, with a cover depicting battle. About it are strewn chains of metal, waxen seals, bits of paper. How odd, well obviously I dozed off while reading. No book mark, how strange! Well, I don't rightly remember any of the book, so I should start at the beginning. The old leather creaks as I begin to lift the cover. My eyes go wide, my jaw slackens. I try desperately to pull my eyes from the page, then from my skull. I am hindered by chains, glittering chains binding my arms to my chair, forcing my head to bow forward. The cover continues to lift itself, WHY OH WHY DID I IGNORE THE WARNINGS WRITTEN IN MY OWN HAND, more and more of the page is revealed. THANK THE LORD ALMIGHTY, a table of contents. For a moment, I breath a sigh of relief, minding myself to join a monastery in gratitude. Then the cracked parchment page, or at least what looks to be parchment, begins to lift itself. I try to scream, but the chains now bind my lips. Silently then I mutter prayers hoping for any possible rescue. Why oh why did I dream the metals would be untainted, that I might slip the books unearthly grasp. Finally, the first image is revealed. For a moment I see it, and comprehend it. Then I see red... black... then nothing.

I sit huddled in my study, shakily drinking brandy. When I woke the book had gone, with it all memory of the contents. I had three days growth of beard, much of it white. I will never be free of it, but I hope in time the tremors will subside. For now I drink to forget, to pass the time until the sun rises... if it ever shall again.

Forum Explorer

2016-10-25, 10:09 PM

Because eldar attracts d*ckheads and even on the off chance that you just have a fetish for elves in space and you're actually the nicest person ever, you're going to be tarred with the same brush because the other 95% of people who have the same plastic toy man dollies are total **** *****.

OP teams attract ********s, there's nothing specific to Eldar that makes them worse. Other then they've been OP for 2 editions now.

Mildly related note, I have tried to read all of the latest codexes, but can't physically bring myself to look at the eldar codex. Like, eldar art physically hurts my eyes. I try, psyching myself up. "it is only pictures of space elves, you can do this." Then the pin head helmets, oh god the pin head helmets. I look at a page, then immediately close the book in disgust, bile on my tongue. A few months later I go "It couldn't have been that bad. I have even enjoyed eldar art on /tg/, I must have been overreacting." I open the codex again, and once more I flee. My eyes burn. I howl at the moon "that helmet was bigger then its torso. No head should be that long." Slowly, Gradually, I collect my sanity, move on. Ever so carefully I burn the memories from my mind. Their are flashes, but over the weeks then months they fade. Finally clear in head and heart, I am at peace.

Much later, when considering some theory crafting, I wonder why I haven't read the Eldar codex. Such a foolish oversight, why, I have it on the shelf right there, bound in chains of blessed silver and oiled electrum. Wondering why I went to such lengths to seal the tome, I begin to undo the bindings. I remove warnings, writing them off as a simple fancy. Finally, the ghastly cover is revealed. If at that moment you asked me what was on the cover, I would say a battle scene. Were you to press me for a more precise description, I would try to focus. Then my eyes would slowly glaze over, and if asked again I would babel dazedly.

In my hands is a book, with a cover depicting battle. About it are strewn chains of metal, waxen seals, bits of paper. How odd, well obviously I dozed off while reading. No book mark, how strange! Well, I don't rightly remember any of the book, so I should start at the beginning. The old leather creaks as I begin to lift the cover. My eyes go wide, my jaw slackens. I try desperately to pull my eyes from the page, then from my skull. I am hindered by chains, glittering chains binding my arms to my chair, forcing my head to bow forward. The cover continues to lift itself, WHY OH WHY DID I IGNORE THE WARNINGS WRITTEN IN MY OWN HAND, more and more of the page is revealed. THANK THE LORD ALMIGHTY, a table of contents. For a moment, I breath a sigh of relief, minding myself to join a monastery in gratitude. Then the cracked parchment page, or at least what looks to be parchment, begins to lift itself. I try to scream, but the chains now bind my lips. Silently then I mutter prayers hoping for any possible rescue. Why oh why did I dream the metals would be untainted, that I might slip the books unearthly grasp. Finally, the first image is revealed. For a moment I see it, and comprehend it. Then I see red... black... then nothing.

I sit huddled in my study, shakily drinking brandy. When I woke the book had gone, with it all memory of the contents. I had three days growth of beard, much of it white. I will never be free of it, but I hope in time the tremors will subside. For now I drink to forget, to pass the time until the sun rises... if it ever shall again.

This a work of art. You should be proud of yourself. :smallsmile:

Brookshw

2016-10-25, 10:12 PM

Orks & Nids baby, Orks & Nids.

LordDavenport

2016-10-25, 10:17 PM

This a work of art. You should be proud of yourself. :smallsmile:

Admittedly a mild exaggeration. I dunno, maybe it is the uncanny valley, but eldar codex art freaks me out. So whenever people talk about it, I feel a bit left out.

Edit:

Orks & Nids baby, Orks & Nids.

That actually sounds like an interesting game. Smaller scale skirmish game, simplified mechanics given the inherently specified sides. Some cool asymmetrical rules and win conditions. I would play that as a table top game.

Brookshw

2016-10-25, 10:39 PM

That actually sounds like an interesting game. Smaller scale skirmish game, simplified mechanics given the inherently specified sides. Some cool asymmetrical rules and win conditions. I would play that as a table top game.

I really want to paint up a series of killa kans and a dreadnaught in a protest line w/ little signs to waive;
What do we want?
Trash can rights!
When do we want them?
Waaagh!

That or build a warboss sized throne made out of guns and toss it on a modded buggy, run it as a warboss on bike & call it games of dakka or something

LeSwordfish

2016-10-26, 01:52 AM

Drasius

2016-10-26, 02:12 AM

If the imbalance were really this bad overall then tournament podium places shouldn't be approximately 100% Eldar, they should be exactly 100% Eldar, no exceptions.

If the tournament scene was just eldar and BA, then you'd be correct, but very few people are silly enough to take BA to a serious tourney. The gap between eldar and BA was/is one of the largest in the game.

... the bottom three armies in WFB (Beastmen, Brets and Tomb Kings)*. I never met a Beastman, Bret or TK player whose attitude to those extra points was "I don't want your pity".

And I don't recall a beastmen player ever achieving anything of note, even with the extra points allowance and IIRC, there was just 1 significant win for TK with khalida and a big block of like 100+ skelly archers.

It really sounds like there are some specific people you know personally who you are venting about through this discussion.

The "specific people" are eldar players in general, nothing more and nothing less.

You say "be tarred with the same brush" in the passive but you're definitively one of the people doing the tarring here.

I know, I thought I made my position quite clear that if you play eldar then there's an extremely high probability (in my experience) that you're no fun to play against. If you think that myself and cheesegear are the only people with this attitude, go search dakkadakka for a thread about banning the eldar codex from tournament play, plenty of people in there with similar sentiments.

This comes back around to the main point I was trying to make earlier I guess: if painting everyone who uses a certain book as evil fun-ruiners is how you "comp" your games, with a sorry-not-sorry to those who aren't jerks out to ruin your fun, but are just trying to have fun themselves (which I will continue to assume is the majority of people), then the cure is worse than the disease.

They can have their fun with someone else, I never said that eldar players can't play, just that I don't want to play them. If I meet one of the few eldar players who aren't "jerks out to ruin my fun", then I will gladly play with them, but the current count of eldar asshats to decent people is 15:1, so those are fairly slim odds compared to the 3:>100 of all the other codecies (1 necron, 1 space marine and 1 tyranid if you are interested).

Wow, **** the stereotyping in this thread. No-one comes onto the internet to read **** like this. Get better gaming groups/don't play the ********s/organise houserules.

Stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason.
As for getting better gaming groups (we slowly did by not playing eldar)/ not playing ********s (again, my position has already been stated, I don't play them anymore outside of tournament draws where I don't have a choice).

It seems to be that Eldar players genuinely don't populate the internet at all. Like don't participate in any online discussion, whatsoever, and scrotes trying to pull the moral high ground because they play broken ("but it has counters!" they whine) armies that aren't AS broken as Eldar is honestly one of the most hypocritical/stupid arguments I've ever seen. Are you seriously not over "but they did it first".

Firstly, calling others names after adopting the moral high ground doesn't strengthen your position. Second, Eldar players are everywhere on the net, but you don't see them defending accusations that their codex is OP because it very plainly and demonstrably is OP. Any defence that it isn't is usually dissected and laughed off in short order. Thirdly, I do play on of the least powerful armies currently available, I have at least some claim on the high ground when complaining about elder power levels.

Cut the ****, and go back to talking about your little army men with actual constructive discussions that I do enjoy reading more than baiting each other with quasi-intelligent veiled insults. That is more cancerous to the hobby than a broken army. Grow up.

Then make a constructive post of your own and don't try and stop people from expressing views that you don't like.

Awesome story about the uncanny valley effect of the eldar dex

I always thought that was what the eldar were meant to be. Human'ish, but with the proportions not quite right and hard to pinpoint exactly why. I would say that the art is having exactly the right effect and was working as intended. Loved the write up though, very 40k (or the old WHFB, reminds me of the opening of the first archaon book where belakor was introduced).

Forum Explorer

2016-10-26, 02:27 AM

If the tournament scene was just eldar and BA, then you'd be correct, but very few people are silly enough to take BA to a serious tourney. The gap between eldar and BA was/is one of the largest in the game.

What is BA anyways? Blood Angels?

boomwolf

2016-10-26, 02:29 AM

Yea, he's at fault there.

A riptide wing is hard to fluffy justify for tau. Having a riptide wing fight along space marines? Pure cheesemonging.

Give me D weapons, superheavies, Gladius light tank spam, drop pod shenanigans, summoning, 2++ rerollable and whatever OP nonsense you can think of, but don't mix two armies that have no reason to be mixed.

Drasius

2016-10-26, 02:45 AM

What is BA anyways? Blood Angels?

Yep. My apologies, I thought that was a common enough short hand for most people. For future reference; DA is dark angels, SW is spess woofs, SM is vanilla marines, DE is dark eldar, CSM is chaos space marines, so on and so forth.

lord_khaine

2016-10-26, 03:40 AM

Eldar players. Can't. Do. This. In a casual setting, Eldar players. Can't. Take. Bad. Options. There simply aren't any. The only way that an Eldar player can lose, is if they deliberately try to lose. By taking Guardians and Howling Banshees. By 'forgetting' to shoot with certain units. By 'forgetting' that their Farseers are only 100 Points and can cast Presience and Guide at the same time. To lose, an Eldar player has to not roll 6s when they shoot. They can't control that. There's nothing they can do. It's just the way it is.

One of the few things i straight up disagree with. If you do something as simple as build a fluffy Eldar army, with no gargantuans, no jetbikes, and only of each other units, then im pretty sure it will be both fun to play against and possible to beat for just about every other codex.

Also, since it seems appropriate, I'm going to repost my favourite 40k comic;

That comic is complete crap, being about as far away from reality as possible.
2nd edition : Here everything were equally bonkers, weapons were so powerful that battles more or less turned into a game of rocket tag, or dodge-the-vortex-grenade.
3rd edition : Yeah, Star Cannons were decent, though at the same time Marine players and IG got access to a lot of good tanks that were straight up covered in lascannons. Or who had S8 AP 3 pie plates.
4th edition : Most likely the one where i had the much fun, as well as a lot of tense games. But its also the one where those who could afford a parking lot of cheap metal boxes ruled. Them and IG.
5th edition : Curiously missing. Despite being one of the longest ones, and the one where everyone else got shiny new toys, while Eldars were stuck in 4th.
6th edition : Yeah, it was possible to spam Wave Serpents here, but it is just one among many broken army builds.
7th edition : I guess this is a great place for those who can afford to replace their entire army, instead of relying on something thats close to 50 % metal.

It really sounds like there are some specific people you know personally who you are venting about through this discussion. In any case I don't find this kind of phrasing gels well with previously accusing Eldar players in this thread of throwing "undignified insults" and getting "nasty and personal".

Agree with this, so far there has been 1 main source of "nasty and personal"

Eldan

2016-10-26, 03:49 AM

You people are really trampling on my confidence, these last two pages :smalltongue:

I've played Eldar since third edition and I win maybe a third of games. I mean, I know I'm terrible at this game, but I didn't think I was that hopeless.

Wraith

2016-10-26, 04:06 AM

I've played Eldar since third edition and I win maybe a third of games. I mean, I know I'm terrible at this game, but I didn't think I was that hopeless.

As is often the case, we are - for some reason that I haven never quite been able to grasp in it's entirety - using Cheesegear and his local meta as our litmus test for "normal". A place which, I have to say, sounds like a truly awful location to go and enjoy a game of toy soldiers for a few hours. :smallconfused:

There may be a certain amount of cognitive bias towards the negative in that previous statement, but frankly from what I remember of tales about Parking Lots, Triple Riptides and Swarmlord-in-1000-points players slapping CG's hand away after a game there are enough examples springing to mind that have me feeling like it's not just the occasional isolated anecdote. :smalltongue:

So with that in mind.... Don't worry about it. Despite his often acidic wit and tendency to nail his colours to the mast with determined fervour, Cheesegear is an exceptionally good player.... Sometimes, I think, he just forgets that we aren't also and gets a bit carried away. :smallwink:

Cheesegear

2016-10-26, 04:59 AM

If I made a £250 purchase and my group forbid me from using it in more than one game, I'd find a new group.

There is no other group. The reason why my meta is so big/diverse, is because everyone plays in it. What am I supposed to do? "I'm going to create my own meta! With Blackjack and hookers a Gladius and a Riptide Wing in the same list! Who's with me!?"

Couple of things I was reminded of today, when I went into the local store with my afternoon off work;

About six months ago (April? Yeah, that sounds right), four guys came into the store, to get started in the hobby. The guys got Guard, Tyranids, Sisters (we told him not to...), and the fourth guy bought up Eldar. These guys are brand new, and don't know anything about the hobby. The guy who wanted Eldar, specifically bought the big, red shiny Windrider Host box. Y'know, the one with three units of Jetbikes, a Farseer and a Vyper. Jetbikes look friggin' rad. Buy it. Buy it now. Seems innocent enough, right? The guy then had nine, sweet Jetbikes. Some he put Scatter Lasers on, some he put Shuriken Cannons on. Why would you not? There's nothing stopping you, right?

About a week or so in, he asked us (me) what he's supposed to do with his Farseer. He's only got one. How does he do good stuff with it? Well, first, says I, you roll on Divination, probably twice. If you get the Ignores Cover and/or Everything is Rending Powers, great. If you don't get one or both, just trade for the Primaris - Prescience. With your third roll, because you're ML3, roll on the Runes Discipline. I don't remember the good Powers in Runes, but I know the Primaris is Guide. If you don't get the Runes Power you want, trade it for Guide. You will now have access to Prescience and Guide at the same time, and now you have the ability to Twin-Linked two squads. Jetbike squads, that is. With Scatter Lasers and Shuriken Cannons. This is how you use a Farseer correctly, and there's nothing stopping you from doing it.

After that, the Eldar guy never lost a game against his friends. Guard got rolled. Tyranids got rolled. The Sisters had a few good games, but Twin-Linked Bladestorm/Misfortune with Doom (yeah, that's the Runes Power. Doom.) will beat Power Armour every time. Especially as Sisters are T3, not T4 like Marines. Over time, his friends, the guys he came into the store with, the guys he got into the hobby with, stopped playing him. Games against 'The Eldar Guy' weren't fun. There was nothing his friends could do to beat him. He played Eldar the way he was supposed to. He liked the Jetbike box, so he bought the Jetbike box. But, just by playing Eldar - correctly - he was no longer able to get games with his friends, because his Eldar were simply too good. I played him a couple of times. He's an okay dude. But he plays Eldar, and Jetbike Eldar at that. He likes the models. He bought the models. He didn't do anything wrong, but his three friends no longer wanted to play him, because games against him weren't fun.

Guess what? The guy who plays Tyranids is still in the hobby, buying up Flyrants and Tyrannofexes. The guy who plays Guard, still plays Guard (I think he has nine Leman Russes, now). The guy who plays Sisters, still plays Sisters, although he's moved on to Allies and Culexus Assassins since he doesn't have Psykers of his own. But the guy who plays Eldar? Gone. His three friends that he walked into the store with, no longer want games with him. These guys are basically brand new to the hobby, and already figured out that (Jetbike) Eldar were stupid. They didn't hate their friend. They just don't want to play games with them. I didn't have a problem. I play Marines. I'm good. Come at me. Like I said, I played him a bunch of times. But his friends? The reason he's in the hobby? The social group he picked up the game for in the first place? Nope.

Did you ever go to your friends' house when you were a kid (or as an adult), and they ask you to play a game with them. Except that they own the game, and you don't. So they know all the combos, strategies and how to win, and you know basically nothing at all about the game? Yeah. It's like that. You don't want to play, real fast. Your friend isn't doing anything wrong, per se. They're not doing it out of malice. But they do have better gear/characters/knowledge, and they will beat you. Every time. So why play? So you can watch them beat you? Sounds fun.
inb4; "Get good."

I also went to a tournament just recently where the Screamer Council was banned. A guy who wanted to bring an Eldar Jet Council was told he couldn't come. He could bring Eldar, just not a Jet Council. I was told that Hunter's Eye was banned, given what I was trying to do with it (One Drop Pod had Meltaguns, the other had Centurion Devs, I would choose where Hunter's Eye goes based on opponent).

Last week some guy was giving me mad trash talk about how he was going to smash my list, and ended the challenge with "Oh, P.S; No Fliers." the implication being, that if I played with Fliers, the challenge was off and I wouldn't get a game.
Just today, one of the Guard guys asked for a game sometime this week, and said "But no Formations.", which I'm pretty sure translates to "You can't use the Gladius." I, personally, have my own saying, that if people really want to, they can take "The Razorback Challenge." where I bring 9+ Razorbacks and see how it goes. Some people beat me, I win a lot. But people know what they're getting, going into The Razorback Challenge, because it's not a secret. They know what they're getting into, and they accept it, and I keep my friends. Even though I bought 12 Razorbacks, I rarely get to use 12 Razorbacks, because that's not how social contracts work.

I bought my models. I spent a lot of time and care painting my models.
I like my models.
I should get to use them. It makes sense.

Except that my opponents can always choose not to play me. Or they can see me deploy on Turn 1, and forfeit. Casual games are not tournaments, and people's time - especially leisure time, with jobs, kids and SOs in the mix - is valuable and nobody is under any obligation to play you, ever (Not even at tournaments, where people can and do forfeit games all the time). and why should they waste their time playing a game they can't win. Oh? You did buy your third Wraithknight? How's having no games working out for you?

Hell, didn't I make a thread title about this? Friends are better than Wraithknights. No. You do not need a third Wraithknight. What you need, is the ability to play games. Your opponent can make any and all ridiculous stipulations against you, and you can either acquiesce, or not play. And I will always choose to play a game, over not.

40K is a social game, played by two players, face-to-face. I've punched someone in the head over a game of 40K, because they were being a massive douche (I made a thread title about it way back and everything).

I bought 3 Riptides. I like Riptides. Stormsurges look ugly (and suck), and Crisis Suits are too small. Riptides are perfect for what I want. Then GW made a Formation of just Riptides, no tax. Then also made a Formation of just Marker Drones to go with it, no tax. Sweet! This is my time to shine! 3 Riptides and a Drone-Net is where it's at. Hang on, how come nobody will play me anymore? Nobody hates me. I didn't do anything wrong. I bought models that I liked, and I put together a list that uses them properly.
I didn't do anything bad. I didn't hurt anybody. But people stopped playing me anyway, because it's not Fun.

Does it suck? Sure it does. I spent money buying them, and time painting them.
Do I understand why people wont play me? Do I understand why people aren't having Fun against a Gladius and a Riptide Wing? Even though I totally bought and painted them and there's nothing stopping me from using them and how come I can't do anything I want? Yes. Absolutely. I get it. And I have to take that on the chin.

Play to your meta. My meta is not a Riptide Wing and Gladius sort of meta. Some metas, are also not Eldar metas. Eldar players didn't do anything wrong (except it seems that Drasius and I know some of the same people, so some Eldar players absolutely do things wrong), but they're ostracized all the time. Because the Eldar Codex is just. That. Good.
Do I condone it? No. Excluding people is awful.
Do I understand why certain people will exclude Eldar players? Yes. If I feel bad after playing an Eldar list (any competent Eldar list), I can only imagine that people who don't play Marines find it far worse.