OOTS #270 - The Discussion Thread [Archive] - Page 2

U2QueenBee

2006-01-21, 11:19 AM

I've thought of something else about the 'Why does this feel different than V's fireballs' thing and since my other post is buried about 10 pages ago I'll just do another quick one here!

I think for me, at least, part of it is that we have sort of gotten to know Miko. We don't necessarily love her a lot, but she's not just a nameless face or a cardboard cut-out of someone anymore. When V (or indeed the whole party) killed all the goblins in Xykon's cave, it was equally if not more violent, but because the goblins hadn't had any plot exposition (apart from a few like Redcloak, who escaped), and because they weren't really shown to have any kind of sympathetic side or redeeming features (or indeed any features) at all, it was easier to sort of shut off the emotional aspect of it. It seems cruel, but I think it's human nature - we get a lot more upset and worked up about someone we know dying in a tragedy than we do about a news story about Generic Mr. X and Ms. Y getting horribly murdered or dying in a car accident or something of that nature. When it's someone you know, it hits closer to home. So I think that's what's doing it with Miko getting hurt for me, and maybe some other people too.

The premeditatedness of it might have something to do with it too. This doesn't feel as much like Belkar's usual off-the-cuff "I'm perpetually in a bad mood and you've pissed me off so you're toast" kind of violence; it's more calculated, in (dare I say it) a more serial killer fashion, which is creepier.

I second most of what The Goldfish said, actually.

But at the end of the day it is just a comic, and I wasn't up late last night agonising over it or anything! :D And indeed, kudos to Rich for creating characters that can provoke sympathy and other strong emotions. :)

Alfryd

2006-01-21, 11:36 AM

Belkar seems to have better Int then some folks here were giving him credit for. That was a wonderful and creative use of "at hand" resources.
Including V.

It should also be noted that Belkar made Miko waste one of her smite evil attacks for the day. Not sure how many she has, but if he can do that a few more times, he'll be better able to fight her face to face.
3 times/day, most likely. At least, she used that in the last fight.

I wonder how many daggers Belkar has left...
Good question. Where is Belkar getting those throwing knives from? Or did he managed to reclaim his equipment?

Belkar has no visible injuries.
True. Maybe he's stumbled on a potion or two?

I hope you don't get attached to all of your NPC's this way.
We don't know she's an NPC, hell, for all we know, Belkar could be. I repeat Miko has done nothing- no, really, nothing- to deserve a horrible agonising death. Which you know the Belkster has in mind.

Come on. He's out for revenge. If he was only concerned about living, he'd have escaped the complex by now.
That seems likely.

Y'know I was expecting more negative feedback to Miko being set alight by some of the Mikophiles...
As Scott Adams has stated, the population can be broken down into 10% good, 25% evil, and 65% weasels. (MMOs indicate 10/5/85, but it may be a biased sample.) The principle remains.
Mikophilia. Good word.

Mods who feel the need to warn/ban me for a personal attack feel free. A lot of today's "Miko's skin is burning off, yaaaaaaaaaay!" responses sickened me.
It's definitely a little bit twisted.

Aaaahhh...everything that I hoped for. Burn baby, BURN!

Die Miko Because she is not funny and is the orders ENEMY.

And as far as Miko is concerned, anyone rooting for her is just weird and should probably be locked up.
Lecterism: The belief rudeness should be punished with agonizing death.

Secondly: Miko is a freaking antangonist! Belkar is a protagonist! How the heck can you be rooting for Miko?
The tangible aura of untouchable virtue? EVIL!?

You know what. Forget it. I'm going to take my chances and STAY in the fully armed castle and, more than that, CHALLENGE her to a duel, despite the fact I am physically overmatched. So all I have left now are my brains and the very little amount of equipment I own or that I rummaged to find...but dang it, I'm not leaving this castle until I teach that wench a lesson (And perhaps...save his friends?)
Technically, you have a point.

No, the EVIL act was the destruction of the gate and the weakening of the fabric of the universe...
This was not evil unless done willingly and knowingly. It may be unlawful.

If they ask for quarter, if they surrender, it is an evil act to kill them.
Not neccesarily. Most honour codes would demand you show mercy, but if you have good reason to suspect this is merely a ploy to let your guard down, you might still be justified in killing them. You need an assurance they will abide by their surrender. Certainly if you're chaotic.

Fixed alignment is so unrealistic, even for a fantasy world.
Good/Evil by nature is a heap of bullcrap.

According to the Book of Exalted Deeds, torture, no matter for what reason, is an evil act.
Yes, it is. But the alternative may be greater evil.

My group tried to play a game once with a paladin character who had a code only to capture, never to kill. It...... didn't work out. Let's just leave it at that.
You may need a more flexible honour code, and certainly a different approach to combat. A monk/rogue might manage it.

...merely claiming authority from the 12 gods of the south doesnt mean he actually legitimately does have authority, beyond that of the sword.
Thor (or at least his celestial beurocracy,) don't seem to be evincing any objections.

Good will always triumph over evil.
Only on large scales, since concentrated evil tends to annihalate itself.

Miko's never done anything wrong! She's in fact been too nice for her own good!

...had Miko been more diplomatic, all this mess would have been prevented. It is irrelevant whether her actions are justified or not (given her charge) - she is a hardass, and even though she fights for a greater good her methods are far from sound.

As to the "final conversation", that struck me as forced -- a railroaded conversation, if you may. I don't see her in a romantic relationship. It's difficult for any paladin, but near impossible for one so emotionally removed from humanity.
She's not emotionally removed, she's emotionally repressed. She has issues. Her emotions, thus far, have worked against her twice.

"Listen" isn't a Paladin class skill. May explain Miko's behavior a bit.
Spot & Listen, however, are class skills for Monks. She *might* have a couple of ranks, given she invested in survival.

EDIT: Note that she can use Detect Evil to find Belkar if she thinks of it. It takes time and concentration, but Belkar can't really hurt her badly from range.
Good point. However, if Belkar has retrieved his equipment, he may have retrieved that lead sheet.

...the restraining order placed on Miko back in comic #228 prevents Miko from employing that ability.
I think, given she's already divined his alignment, she may be willing to waive that injunction.

Wait, what happens if Miko's forced to break her willingly given oath of no outside healing?
Bupkiss.

Although roleplay wise Miko should probably do penance of some sort for acting non-lawfully too, rules-wise it has no effect.
Except that done persistently, you cease to be Lawful, and thus ends your Paladin career.

Making this battle a personal one rather than one of good versus evil is an egotistical act.
This is technically true.

Bakta

2006-01-21, 11:45 AM

Well, you said you don't know 3rd Edition terms, so here's a little update for you. Orcs can be redeemed, there is no creature in fact that can't at least be theoretically redeemed (albeit extremely difficultly), and Orcs are relatively easy.

The alignment entry from "Orc" in the 3rd Edition Monster Manual is "Often Chaotic Evil". You see, now, creatures have not just their alignment, but how common that alignment is to their race.

It has three types:
Often: A plurality of the race has that alignment, either by nature or nurture, but the tendency isn't particularly strong. Exceptions are common. Example: Humans are Often True Neutral

Usually: The majority of creatures have this alignment, the alignment is due to culture or a tendency due to the origin of the race. Example: Elves are often Chaotic Good

Always: This creature is born with the alignment, it's either hereditary or innate to the creature. It's theoretically possible for them to change alignment, but it is a unique case or a very rare event. Example: Balors are Always Chaotic Evil

Thus, more Orcs are Chaotic Evil than any other alignment, and you'll find many orcs that are True Neutral, Neutral Evil, or Chaotic Neutral. You could even find a rare Chaotic Good or Neutral Good orc, or even possibly a Lawful Good one, especially away from their culture (which encourages CE behavior).

Against my better judgement, I'll bite ;)

Two little points :

-There is always a situation where the "broad spectrum" do not apply. This is true since Chainmail. without nitpicking, one can consider a situation where the orcs you meet are obviously servants of Gruumsh (the orc god of my days). This obviously still apply to the current set of rules doesn't it?.So without the shadow of a doubt you know those are evil, then what I postulated before apply.

I am pretty sure there are alignment opposition' issues, it just add tension to the game. And tension is both life and spîce in a game.

- If one consider this to be The Giant's adventure then it comes to sense his personnal rules apply. We both may enjoy this little chat, it's as a lively discussion as it was then, but it's still his sandbox, not ours.

As a player, I'd dread to have either Miko or Belkar in my group, but love to have them together. As opposed as they are, together they just cannot be resisted.

Keep it up

GeeVee

2006-01-21, 11:45 AM

Let me start off by saying I liked this strip. It was not funny. As a matter of fact, I think anyone who found it funny has got some serious problems.
But let me say just why I like this strip.

To begin with, I've never been one to complain about Belkar. He was funny, had many good punchlines and never really took the killing seriously enough for me to be offended.

But then strip #265 came along. It disturbed me. Until now, Belkar has been the most one-dimensional character in the OotS. No backstory, powerplayed extremely clichéd I-Wanna-Kill-Stuff attitude you often see in more immature players who play CE characters so they can do anything they want.

Strip #265 showed another side of Belkar's personality. The true side. A more twisted, psychopathic side, one that isn't funny at all. Why is this interesting? Because most characters don't show more than one side of the same personality trait.
This side of the Evil personality isn't one often seen in PCs. When PCs are evil, they tend to become rather one-dimensional, killing for no reason at all. Here, you see actual evil. Belkar at his worst, killing for pure pleasure. Choosing to kill someone in the most painful way possible.

This is true evil. Not some clueless Lich who kills minions because he's bored. Not a spoiled brat who kills for money. Not a zombie who kills becauses it doesn't know anything else. Not a beast that kills so it can eat.
Belkar knew from the start that he was going to win this encounter. He knew he would get to watch her being set on fire. He planned this, not so she would die, but so she would suffer. He toyed with her emotions, taunting her from the shadows, knowing she had no chance. Cruel, sadistic and cunning.

Also, this strip made me sympathize with Miko. Before now, most strips tried to make you dislike her. If you found a person being set on fire funny, you need help. I think Belkar's going to win this one, even though I don't want him to. Miko has more potential for growth as a character than any other character in the whole comic.

Kaerou

2006-01-21, 12:06 PM

I agree GV, i dont actually like Belkar that much.

She's a paladin, the thrown dagger at first would have dealt 6 damage tops? She's obviously a high level Paladin. The fire is going to deal what.. 2d4 first round? 1d6? She'll be healed of it in a single round, she has a fairly high CHA too. She's got plenty of healing left.

I hate to say it but.. go Miko. I dont like Paladins but she has my fill support.

I personally am hoping Belkar bites it here.

Miko has the potential for great growth, Belkars lines are getting stale.

Starla

2006-01-21, 12:12 PM

I agree with Gee Vee that this strip was not comedic it had more of an Alfred Hitchcock flavor. I had the music from Level nine of the original Legend of Zelda in my head as soon as I saw Miko walking around the boxes. To me it was Link fighting Gannon. (Because Gannon is in invisible in that room not because I am choosing sides. I don't know what I want to have happen and I think I will like the outcome better if I don't take a side. Let Rich write the ending to the scene.)

Starbuck_II

2006-01-21, 12:29 PM

To my understanding, sake doesn't burn all that well, and most alcohol fires flare out pretty quick.

True, but only if she wastes an action to extinguish it will it go away. Still around 2d4 damage at least (2 rounds).

nor will thrown daggers (don't get a Strength bonus to damage, right?).

Nope, you add Str to all thrown weapons.

If Belkar is trying to get Miko to lose her Paladinhood than one quote says it best:
"Sometimes when you lose you win. Sometimes when you win you lose."

What if that information was needed to save the lives of people. Many people. Maybe a whole city, a whole continent. Maybe just your wife/husband/partner/relative/person you care about. Would you do it then? According to the Book of Exalted Deeds, torture, no matter for what reason, is an evil act. If a Paladin had two choices, torture the prisoner and save a city, or not torture him and watch the city burn, most (PC) Paladins would choose to torture him.

Depends if torture is illegal like it is in US>

IF Pal used it when iullegal loses abilities. Since Torture is an evil act: loses Abilities. So you are saying most Pals lose abilities...sucks to be them.

In real life, I know I would too.

You are a criminal (since in most countries it is illegal)? I woudn't for both legal reasons and I'm against torture. I would find a way around it. Ther eis always another way.

But, in D&D, this is a reprehensible act, and it actual indicates that you have let evil win. The big pendulum of Good vs Evil has swung over to evil's side. As such, all (NPC) Paladins should not torture him. It is giving in to Evil.

Yes, it does not necessarily make sense to you or me. But this is the way that the game is played.

D&D does not function under the rules of our world. If it did, it would not be as fun to play. It is fantasy.

It makes sense to be. Actually, Torture being bad fits real world.

I personally always play good characters (in real life too lol). Well I once played a CN character, but he had a good side.

Also, this strip made me sympathize with Miko. Before now, most strips tried to make you dislike her. If you found a person being set on fire funny, you need help. I think Belkar's going to win this one, even though I don't want him to. Miko has more potential for growth as a character than any other character in the whole comic.

Dude, real life fire hurts more than fantasy fire. Thus it is possible to like someone fakely being on fire and niot need help.
If you can't seperate fake from reality; you might need help. (True statement really to all)

Lady_Orc

2006-01-21, 12:37 PM

The Vorpal Tribble

2006-01-21, 12:38 PM

It was not funny. As a matter of fact, I think anyone who found it funny has got some serious problems.
So you insult me by saying I got problems AND the Giant by saying his most recent comic strip isn't funny.

I found it funny, not because she got burned, but because of the whole thing going on here. And as its an adventurer's comic strip, its supposed to be funny, and I'm sure it was intended as such.

Funny #1. Gotta love Belkar's sarcasm
Funny #2. Belkar tricking her into a weakened position because she is, in this instance, being lawful stupid.
Funny #3. He outsmarted her into attacking a dummy, using up a Smite Evil, and getting soaked in wine.
Funny #4. The 'what the *bleep*' look on her face when she sees she's been soaked in the wine.
Funny #5. "When in doubt, set something on fire". This is funny because its a running gag about him always setting things on fire.

So yes, this IS funny without it having to be about her burning.

Coffee_Dragon

2006-01-21, 12:40 PM

The Vorpal Tribble

2006-01-21, 12:44 PM

Let's see... 18 pages of pro-Belkarites chanting for the success of the evil character and the destruction of the good character, with a smattering of pro-Mikoites getting chastised for not knowing that "it's just a comic".
This 'smattering' seems to be pretty large in scope. Every page there are a number of pro-Mikos. The smattering would be those like me, who don't really have a warm place for Belkar OR Miko, and don't want Belkar to win so much as we wish Miko would lose ;)

and the destruction of the good character
Well, anti-evil anyways.

Blaznak

2006-01-21, 12:55 PM

Belkar is SO fun. Sigh... I really enjoyed this strip. Maybe... TOO much...

eof

2006-01-21, 01:00 PM

Questions: "toe-to-toe fight" sounds like one-on-one, but does it have any other implications? Is that a boxing or wrestling reference, or where does it come from?

I think it's more meant like a "fair fight"--you know, the type where both sides take turns swinging their weapons at each other (regardless of the number of participants on either side). That might be more of a "face-to-face fight," but considering Miko's and Belkar's differences in height, that wouldn't aptly describe the situation either. IMO of course. :)

eof

2006-01-21, 01:02 PM

According to the Book of Exalted Deeds, torture, no matter for what reason, is an evil act.

Yes, it is. But the alternative may be greater evil.
Yeah, heavens forbid that a paladin would get a wizard to cast Charm Person on the subject, rather than torturing the subject for information. Charm Person would cause an instant fall from grace, I'm sure. :P

(Edit: Posted before finished by mistake.)

aaronbourque

2006-01-21, 01:12 PM

So, the whacked out fundamentalist thinks his religion gives him the right to trample all over everyone else.
Surprise!

Just because he can justify it to himself doesn't make him right.
Gods exist. QED, he's likely right.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

The Vorpal Tribble

2006-01-21, 01:16 PM

According to the Book of Exalted Deeds, torture, no matter for what reason, is an evil act.

Yes, it is. But the alternative may be greater evil.
Though I love the BoED, I disagree with it there. If for example someone holds information that could save lives, he is basically threatening them with death as if he had a gun to their heads.

What do you do with someone who has a gun to an innocent's head? You try to take him out as soon as possible.

Torture to save innocent lives is not an evil act, but something done out of defense.

However, if you took pleasure from doing it and made it worse than was required, even if to save lives, it'd be evil.

Rei_Jin

2006-01-21, 01:21 PM

Might I just say that my comments earlier were meant as a way of showing that D&D and the real world are different, and the same rules do not apply. Can we please leave all further discussions of torture, evil-iness, and the way that the real world and OOTS are different for another location? It's really starting to frustrate me, this is a thread on the comic, not a discussion on the ills of mankind.

If OOTS was real world, and we applied real world rulings to it, then every strip from #1 onwards would have to change.

The Vorpal Tribble

2006-01-21, 01:29 PM

Can we please leave all further discussions of torture, evil-iness, and the way that the real world and OOTS are different for another location
Aye we probably should. I just get into arguments easily ;)

aaronbourque

2006-01-21, 01:29 PM

Miko is a freaking antangonist! Belkar is a protagonist! How the heck can you be rooting for Miko?
Because she's more sympathetic than the midget psychotic who should have died long ago?

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

aaronbourque

2006-01-21, 01:33 PM

The pro-miko/anti-Belkster people are taking this comic WAY TO SERIOUSLY.
Oh, go to hell. I take it as seriously as I want to take it. Today's comic reminded me of Rorshach's birth in the Watchmen, not any of the other humorous comics in this strip's history.

Everyone who's on Belkar's side on this is siding with an Evil sociopath over an uptight Good person. Hooray to you.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

PhantomFox

2006-01-21, 01:36 PM

Well, Belkar is a Good Guy by association. That is, simply being in the OOTS along with the other good guys makes him one too. Miko, by severely ticking off the party, being unreasonable, no matter her authority, makes her an antagonist. Belkar hasn't done anything too far over the line. The fire thing is probably handled in a cartoon sense, that is, be more of an inconvienence things than anything else. A I'm betting the writing on the wall was pen, as blood would have been drippy.

Taliesin

2006-01-21, 01:40 PM

Torture one person to save a lot of others. It is somehow vaguely familiar.
We know! FitzChivalry in one Tawny Man book.

Like someone said, since Miko will be probably raised when she is killed, and since the probability is great that it is a fight till death, we prefer Belkar winning - that way we lose neither of the characters. We like both of them, despite the fact that they are extremely different. They both have personality.
Miko-fans, don't worry so much, when Miko dies, she'll be back soon.

And Belkar isn't out of his tricks. It was said somewhere that he usually carries only two daggers.
But, unless he put those daggers where he put that ring, (which we someway doubt) he got those daggers from somewhere else - there could very well be more than two daggers.

The Vorpal Tribble

2006-01-21, 01:41 PM

Oh, go to hell. I take it as seriously as I want to take it.
Which is obviously way overboard...

I'm betting the writing on the wall was pen, as blood would have been drippy.
Heh, I'm surprised we didn't have more people complaining about that. I winced when I saw that far more than when I saw miko was about to take 1d6 fire damage ::)

However, unless your messy I wouldn't think blood would drip any more than ink would.

Manik

2006-01-21, 02:24 PM

Damn this strip has really got some of you guys going huh?

Personally, I thought his attack was damn clever. However, I remember not too long ago that Miko took down the whole OOTS on her own, so I fancy that the sake driven fire won't spell the end of our lovely (and anal) Miko. Belkar better not get too cocky or he may find the floor being wiped with his halfling arse.

To those who suddered at the suggestion of someone being burned alive, while that is rather nasty, you haven't complained before, so why start now?

Max_Sinister

2006-01-21, 02:29 PM

Since some people wondered how many daggers Belkar has:
Belkar must have at least three daggers. Like Carcer in Terry Pratchett's Night Watch.
And Miko is certainly pretty naive, falling for that trick. (But we knew that.)

Oh, and a great comic again!

kierthos

2006-01-21, 02:40 PM

Everyone who's on Belkar's side on this is siding with an Evil sociopath over an uptight Good person. Hooray to you.

Hrm. Let me think about this.

Yes, I am siding with the "evil sociopath" who, by the way, happens to be a fictional character. If this was real life, no I wouldn't.

Here's why:

Miko is stupid. Belkar escaped from prison. From a secured cell, using an item that guards who searched him did not find. This is not the time to be Lawful Stupid and go off on your own to bring him back. You go in force. Because you don't know what his end goal is. Just because he wrote "come get me" didn't necessarily mean that he was going to try and ambush Miko. I mean, he's CE... he doesn't have to write the truth on the wall in red pen. For all Miko could have known, Belkar was going to kill Lord Shojo. And a samurai's first duty is to their lord, not to their own personal matters. Which, by the way, is what Miko is doing... treating this as a personal matter.

OzymandiasVolt

2006-01-21, 02:41 PM

...this comic is now my favorite. Oh wait, it already was. I guess it's firmly in the realm of "Favorite +1" then.

Here's hoping Belkar uses some more sake in the near future.

The_GoldFish

2006-01-21, 02:42 PM

chaotic evil
Yeah, I'm aware of his alignment. Being chaotic evil does not define your character, your character should define your alignmen (or help you start out defining your character if you, like me, suck at thinking up characters, and use things like that as a stepping stone to develop them)

Belkar is Belkar, to quote a couple of extremes, I expect to see him stealing candy from babies, not stabbing them. Or leaving stable doors open and letting all the horses run out just because he can, not, burning the stable down and killing all the horses and people inside. Is he trying to destroy the world? I don't think so, more a case of, disrupting anything and everything he comes across, even if he in no way benefits. (which fits Chaotic Evil in my mind, although so would the mass murder)

Does that mean he's limited to being a character for comic relief? Only if all you are is your alignment, which as indicated, is used occasionally throughout OotS as a joke (Much of Miko). The characters are far deeper; I expect him to be mean, to go back on his word, and work against people he knows, but in non-harmful ways (like messing with fem-Roy or threatening to reveal Haley's feelings)

Similarly, I didn't expect to see Sam + her father killed the way they were. OK I expected retaliation, but cut in half/stabbed and left to rot on the road side? More like, roughed up a bit, knocked out and tied up again. Is killing them the responce I would expect for a Paladin versus evil dooers? Yes. Is it what I expected to read in a webcomic, a book. or see in a movie, to characters I'm familiar with? No, not really - it just seemed too harsh for their acts in the past.

Ultimately, does this mean I'm saying, "I don't want to see anything bad happen in OotS"? No, it means that, in the end, I want to see the characters get what they deserve. For me, all the DnD ruleset referencing is for are some jokes and facilitating plot, not deciding if Miko would be ok or not; it's a story just as much as any other.

I don't pretend to be able to pinpoint exactly what it is that bothers some people and not others, I simply find the end of the strip disturbing; in a bad way, not in a character depiction challenging, depth inducing, light hearted way. Without knowing the continuation of the story, the possibility of having a character burned alive is unpleasent at best.

Yahoo_Serious

2006-01-21, 02:47 PM

I think it's important that Miko said "AAARHH!" iinstead of, say, "AAAAHH!" or "AAIIEE!" or "NNOOOO!"

Whereas "AAIIEE!" might be said by someone seriously burnt, "AAARHH!" implies frustration as much or more than it does pain.

Being hit with a couple non-magical thrown daggers and torched with a bucket of high-test saki doesn't really make much of a difference when you're a monk2/pally12+. So I think "AAARHH!" really expresses, yes a bit of pain, but more Miko's frustration at Belkar toying with her.

So let's tone down the Miko pity-parties, m'kay? ;D

The_Shadow

2006-01-21, 02:51 PM

But one of the attributes of basic Mikophilia (when it works, it works) includes hatred of thematic punnings, so thus no flames.

Well, Aaron, much as I usually agree with you, here we have the parting of the ways. :) I am a devoted paronomasiac.

The burning sake is small potatoes (or rice, as the case may be). Belkar's use of fire as a weapon positively pales in comparison to Vaarsuvius'. Why don't these people get upset when Vaarsuvius goes pyrotechnic with fireballs on a batch of monsters?

I will freely admit that my reaction is not entirely consistent. I can only say that throwing a match on a puddle of flammable liquid feels a heck of a lot more "real" than casting a Fireball spell.

But I think I've earned the right to get upset about people being burned. When one of your loved ones burns to death, you may feel free to criticize me all you like on this subject. Until that time, I'll take it with a grain of salt.

Zargon

2006-01-21, 02:51 PM

Wow - people are still getting their knickers in a knot over this one!
What should he do, challenge her to a dual? That would be suicide as he'd be dead in a couple of rounds (Miko is spectacularly good with her weapons!).
He has limited amount of tools to attack his opponent (basically whatever he could find once escaping + the ring) and trying to maximize their effectiveness.
Belkar is using his abilities and environment for revenge again an opponent that is clearly more powerful (even though their levels might be fairly close).
The use of fire isn't particularly honorable, but I could see neutral characters also using it if they were in a similar situation (i.e. life or death). And the effect of the fire on Miko most likely will be quite minor (he is trying to antagonize her as much as possible).
That he wants revenge instead of escape might be considered evil. Or that could just be really pissed off at Miko (the conflict between them has been building up for many comics).
Yes, I hope that neither character get killed (although for Miko, that would just be an inconvience).
I'm neither a Belkar nor Miko fan but I'm enjoy seing their antics all the same. (yes, I'm a V fan! e.g. Origins)

rosebud

2006-01-21, 02:56 PM

I think for me, at least, part of it is that we have sort of gotten to know Miko. We don't necessarily love her a lot, but she's not just a nameless face or a cardboard cut-out of someone anymore.You have a good point. I think love is the operative word, actually. Or perhaps empathy.

We got to know Xykon, too. And he caused Roy great pain. And we laughed. And, lo, Ron did cause Xykon great pain. And we laughed.

Mind you, Belkar causing Miko great pain caused many here to laugh, but it caused others to cringe.

So, here's a question: Why do people find the battle between (CE) Xykon and (LG) Roy humorous, but the battle between (CE) Belkar and (LG) Miko in this strip evokes controversy?

I have my thoughts, but it would be interesting to hear people's views. (And, in my humble opinion, more interesting than some of the current partisan debate. =)

The_Shadow

2006-01-21, 03:10 PM

We got to know Xykon, too. And he caused Roy great pain. And we laughed. And, lo, Ron did cause Xykon great pain. And we laughed.

Mind you, Belkar causing Miko great pain caused many here to laugh, but it caused others to cringe.

So, here's a question: Why do people find the battle between (CE) Xykon and (LG) Roy humorous, but the battle between (CE) Belkar and (LG) Miko in this strip evokes controversy?

I have my thoughts, but it would be interesting to hear people's views. (And, in my humble opinion, more interesting than some of the current partisan debate. =)

Personally, I felt tremendous empathy for Roy when his sword was shattered and he stood there dealing with his memories. I positively cheered when he knocked Xykon's head off. For me, that wasn't a comedic strip at all - it was moving in a very different way.

But that's the point I first found the comic. Wasn't posting yet.

As for Miko being burned, let me be clear - I am not dissing the Giant here. I think it's amazing he's got me to care so much about stick figures. He is an incredible artist.

My post was simply meant to say I've got a right to my feelings, and don't see any reason why I should admit they're wrong just because non-magical fire does 1d6 damage in d20.

Vampire_Boy

2006-01-21, 03:15 PM

Oh, go to hell. I take it as seriously as I want to take it.

Folks, this is the self-proclaimed LG person speaking! Remember - he doesn't have to be nice to be LG!

Everyone who's on Belkar's side on this is siding with an Evil sociopath over an uptight Good person. Hooray to you.

Oh, I almost read this as: "Everyone who's on Belkar's side is an Evil sociopath". Mind you, you do not seem far from stating that.

tallyrand

2006-01-21, 03:22 PM

Soo frikin sweet, GO BELKAR!

[SPOILER] TACTICA BELKAR: Miko was just a fun and convenient ignition point for Belkar, once the storeroom is burning nicely, Belkar needs to run out of the storeroom and bar it from the outside, d6 damage per round isin't much for Miko, especially with her available heals, but over an extended period, combined with smoke inhalation, it may be a close thing...

Tycho_Bloodbeard

2006-01-21, 03:33 PM

Oh, go to hell. I take it as seriously as I want to take it. Today's comic reminded me of Rorshach's birth in the Watchmen, not any of the other humorous comics in this strip's history.

Right... good point. And doesn't Miko's hard-headedness remind you of Rorschach lack of capacity to compromise, make deals, and act for the better good in general?

Yes, he fought crime. And he killed/injured lots of people in the process when capturing them would have sufficed. I understand that we hold high the virtues of good. However, while what Miko does can be considered good and lawful is hardly just - in the traditional sense of giving "to each one what they deserve". Did the OOTS deseve being chained, dragged, treated like slaves, being abused and brought to trial? My opinion is no. They might have transgreded some laws (even "higher" universe laws), but it is a testament of advanced cultures to treat prisoners with dignity. Denominating them as "filthy, honourless [...] and beneath you" is far rfrom that.

It is easy to admire the notion of unrelenting strife for "good" (e.g. Miko + Rorschach). However, real world (and the OOTS in this case, too) is often complicated and the path might not be linear.

Tycho

PS - I still find it easier to like Rorschach to Miko. His failures of character do not prevent him from valuing his friendship to Night Owl. That makes him maybe less admirable, but more likable than her.

the_belkarnator

2006-01-21, 03:37 PM

Another good example of this is the "small evil to save people" type argument.

If you had captured a prisoner, who had knowledge about a BBEG, and without that information you would not be able to stop him, would you torture him for the information?

(yes, I'm aware there are other methods of getting the information, let's leave that aside for now.)

What if that information was needed to save the lives of people. Many people. Maybe a whole city, a whole continent. Maybe just your wife/husband/partner/relative/person you care about. Would you do it then? According to the Book of Exalted Deeds, torture, no matter for what reason, is an evil act. If a Paladin had two choices, torture the prisoner and save a city, or not torture him and watch the city burn, most (PC) Paladins would choose to torture him.

In real life, I know I would too.

But, in D&D, this is a reprehensible act, and it actual indicates that you have let evil win. The big pendulum of Good vs Evil has swung over to evil's side. As such, all (NPC) Paladins should not torture him. It is giving in to Evil.

Yes, it does not necessarily make sense to you or me. But this is the way that the game is played.

D&D does not function under the rules of our world. If it did, it would not be as fun to play. It is fantasy.

my charcter would do the same thing but hes a fighter how i get information from nonwilling source is holding a flaming longsword to there throat. that was it hurts but its not really as bad as really slow and painful torture however i agree most pc would torture someone to save a city

kerberos

2006-01-21, 03:40 PM

So, here's a question: Why do people find the battle between (CE) Xykon and (LG) Roy humorous, but the battle between (CE) Belkar and (LG) Miko in this strip evokes controversy?
The main reason is IMO that in the Xykon vs. Roy battle the good guy was also the protagonist. In the Belkar vs. Miko fight the evil guy is the protagonist so there's a conflict between the natural tendency to root for the good guy and the equallt natural tendency to root for the protagonist. The controversy is generated by the conflict between protagonism and goodness. Also MIko is a far less likeable character than Roy.

nuance

2006-01-21, 03:50 PM

Also, this strip made me sympathize with Miko. Before now, most strips tried to make you dislike her. If you found a person being set on fire funny, you need help. I think Belkar's going to win this one, even though I don't want him to. Miko has more potential for growth as a character than any other character in the whole comic.

Is this a good time to point out (once again) that this is a comic? Personally, I found the Miko getting set on fire thing very funny. I don't believe I need help. You appear to need help separating reality from fantasy.

the_belkarnator

2006-01-21, 03:56 PM

*goes for his own eyes*

Some of you guys are agonizing just plain, excrutiatingly agonizing...

We just got through with funny Elan strips. Recall the bit about the ruler of Azure City being a talking horse or an alien robot?

Egads, this strip WAS funny. A touch of dark humor though and you guys start boo hooing. For the third time since this comic came out, get a grip guys.

i don't really mind but i if we have another belkar strip he will lose even more support

The_Shadow

2006-01-21, 04:05 PM

The main reason is IMO that in the Xykon vs. Roy battle the good guy was also the protagonist. In the Belkar vs. Miko fight the evil guy is the protagonist so there's a conflict between the natural tendency to root for the good guy and the equallt natural tendency to root for the protagonist. The controversy is generated by the conflict between protagonism and goodness. Also MIko is a far less likeable character than Roy.

Very well said. It's Miko's antagonist status that also generates a lot of the dislike for her, I think. If she were a protag, most people would probably find her shortcomings endearing.

Just like Belkar. If HE were an antagonist, the hatred for him would know no bounds.

ref

2006-01-21, 04:09 PM

I see how the pro-Belkar forces are trying to talk us pro-Miko forces into "it's not that serious, calm down" so that only their roars are heard. We won't fall for it ;D

Bye Bye, Belkar Bitterleaf (#1 - #271). We knew ye too much.

nuance

2006-01-21, 04:17 PM

Personally, I thought his attack was damn clever. However, I remember not too long ago that Miko took down the whole OOTS on her own, so I fancy that the sake driven fire won't spell the end of our lovely (and anal) Miko.

Yeah, but that was to further the "stupid railroad plot". I suspect that it included serious amounts of fudging by the DM to keep his plot on track. She kicked their collective arse because it furthered the plot.

Belkar better not get too cocky or he may find the floor being wiped with his halfling arse.

This will go whichever way makes for a better story. Personally I'm rooting for Belkar and hope he give her uptight arse the kicking it so richly deserves.

The_Shadow

2006-01-21, 04:21 PM

Bye Bye, Belkar Bitterleaf (#1 - #271). We knew ye too much.

Well... While I have stated I want to see the little whoreson dead, I didn't say I didn't want him raised. :) He IS funny, we're overdue for some Raise Dead jokes, and maybe he'll learn something from it.

Athalos

2006-01-21, 04:25 PM

Wow, round one and Belkar owned Miko, go Belkar! Whoo!

Besides, maybe getting her ass handed to her by our favorite sociopath will knock her down a couple of pegs. Or kill her. Either one is good in my book.

Dark_Stalion

2006-01-21, 04:26 PM

Very well said. It's Miko's antagonist status that also generates a lot of the dislike for her, I think. If she were a protag, most people would probably find her shortcomings endearing.

Just like Belkar. If HE were an antagonist, the hatred for him would know no bounds.

I don't think it's quite as simple as this. Do we not all love Thog? And personally I don't dislike Xykon either (evilgasm, he he he). Infact the only people who I dislike are nale and Miko. Doesn't make much sence, I know, but then I rarely do.

kerberos

2006-01-21, 04:40 PM

Very well said. It's Miko's antagonist status that also generates a lot of the dislike for her, I think. If she were a protag, most people would probably find her shortcomings endearing.

Just like Belkar. If HE were an antagonist, the hatred for him would know no bounds.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong on the last one. The reason Miko is dislike for her behaviour is that she's good. If Miko had been evil, then no one would complain that she showed insuficient regard for other people's feelings. Miko is disliked for the compination of being good, an antagonist and not being likeable. Plus of course she matches the kind of paladin that a lot of people lov eto hate.

Lao_Dragon_Ninja

2006-01-21, 05:09 PM

First time poster, but I've been reading the comic since september.

Wow, this strip has been the first to get me worried about Miko.................and laughing out loud about her being set afflame by burning sake at the same time. Your a genius Giant *thumbs up*

edit: When I first read it I thought "Sake? (as in goodness sake) That doesn't make any since."

Ayago22

2006-01-21, 05:14 PM

Cirin

2006-01-21, 05:27 PM

The reason Miko is dislike for her behaviour is that she's good. No, you are wrong.

I am a prime Miko-hater. But not because she's Good. Because she's NOT Good. She's "Good" only by the GM fiat that her class requires her to be "Lawful Good", not by any fact of her behavior being "Good". She's not acted like a Lawful Good character, her actions have been strictly Lawful Neutral.

Really, if she wasn't a Paladin, would you be so quickly to say she's Good? Putting her class aside, would you call her LG instead of LN?

Her actions have always been ruled first and foremost by her laws and her code of honor, not by any sense of what was "right". She obeys a clearly insane religious tyrant who imposes his laws on the rest of the world because of a blind zealotry to a supposedly "good" deity who wants people executed for mistakes, who considered executing people without trial in foriegn lands perfectly acceptable judicial procedure (remember Miko's first appearance), and has no problem sending bounty hunters into foriegn kingdoms to impose their law on others. Roy saw this, he tried to argue this, but Shojo refused to listen, because he's both clearly insane, and he's blinded to any logic by his religious zealotry.

Justice doesn't enter into this. Miko is all about law, not good. She hasn't done a single genuinely good act in the entire strip. The few things that could be good, like going back into the inn, were clearly more out of a sense of duty or obligation, not compassion, mercy, love, or any "good" motivation. The motivations have been strictly Lawful, even if the acts could be interpreted as good.

Miko is a walking example of why many DM's don't allow Paladins into their games. Calling her overall behavior "Good" is an example of why many DM's remove alignment from their games.

kerberos

2006-01-21, 05:43 PM

No, you are wrong.

I am a prime Miko-hater. But not because she's Good. Because she's NOT Good. She's "Good" only by the GM fiat that her class requires her to be "Lawful Good", not by any fact of her behavior being "Good". She's not acted like a Lawful Good character, her actions have been strictly Lawful Neutral.

Really, if she wasn't a Paladin, would you be so quickly to say she's Good? Putting her class aside, would you call her LG instead of LN?

Her actions have always been ruled first and foremost by her laws and her code of honor, not by any sense of what was "right". She obeys a clearly insane religious tyrant who imposes his laws on the rest of the world because of a blind zealotry to a supposedly "good" deity who wants people executed for mistakes, who considered executing people without trial in foriegn lands perfectly acceptable judicial procedure (remember Miko's first appearance), and has no problem sending bounty hunters into foriegn kingdoms to impose their law on others. Roy saw this, he tried to argue this, but Shojo refused to listen, because he's both clearly insane, and he's blinded to any logic by his religious zealotry.

Justice doesn't enter into this. Miko is all about law, not good. She hasn't done a single genuinely good act in the entire strip. The few things that could be good, like going back into the inn, were clearly more out of a sense of duty or obligation, not compassion, mercy, love, or any "good" motivation. The motivations have been strictly Lawful, even if the acts could be interpreted as good.

Miko is a walking example of why many DM's don't allow Paladins into their games. Calling her overall behavior "Good" is an example of why many DM's remove alignment from their games.
Well she did go into the inn to save people, but I agree that her lawfullness is far more prominent than her goodnes, and for the record I don't like Miko very much either. I think you miss my point somewhat though. My point is that I think that we'd dislike Miko less if she was not officially good. If she was lawful neatral or better yet lawfull evil then I don't think she'd be as annoying.

theKOT

2006-01-21, 05:56 PM

I hope Belkar beats Miko, I personally don't like CE characters, but Belkar almost makes me want to try one out. Hmmm let's throw this one on the scales...

Miko=Holier than thou vs Belkar=actually funny once in a while

Belkar wins hands down

Well, sure, if you give two sentences coming from a very partisan viewpoint that's what you get. Let's redo this one from the other point of view...
Belkar=Dark and evil serial killer vs Miko=good intentions

Miko wins hands down.

See? It is not a good way to try to make an argument.

ref

2006-01-21, 06:08 PM

Raising him still yields #1-#271, and then, say, #275 (I'm leaving enough time for the trial to go all well) - #whatever

But it should go like this
* Permanency
* Owl's Wisdom
* Raise Dead.

Sebastian

2006-01-21, 06:09 PM

May I quote the Lord Shojo in saying, "...the Sapphire Gaurd has been given their holy powers by the Twelve Gods of the South to protect the gates. And since the gods are not limited in their jurisdiction, neither are we."

Well, I just happen to have a special exemption given to me from Santa Claus himself. So nyaaa!!!
The gods exist, you say!? The only gods I know exist are Thor, Odin and Loki, (well, and Banjo of course) becuase I saw them in the comic, those "twlelve gods" could come from the bottom of a beer bottle too much for what I know.
And even if they are real, Banjo is a god, too, do you think that this give could give Elan the autority to go around arresting people because Banjo told him so?

Corolinth

2006-01-21, 06:26 PM

These debates always surprise me as to how little people actually understand the D&D alignment system (as screwed up as it is). The simple fact of the matter is that the vast majority of all player characters are actually neutral because being good is hard. We like to think our characters are "good" because that's the moral thing to do.

The Paladin Code is a fairly universal thing among paladin orders. It's been toned down quite a bit since second edition, and I'm not entirely convinced it was for the better. It allows for better class-balance, but there is the unfortunate side effect that the paladin class itself has been compromised in the process.

Good and Evil is fairly black and white, there are no shades of gray - that's neutral. The fact that someone or something is evil is not itself justification for killing them. As a paladin, Miko was quite right to insist that the ogres arm themselves before combat. The Order of the Stick is a classic example of good-aligned PCs who are not quite able to keep up with the demanding morality of Good. A Good character can not coup de grace helpless opponents. They may put a dying creature out of its misery, but they may not "finish the job", so to speak.

Although it is worth noting that Elan saving his brother's life in comics #68 and #69 are the very definition of Good.

Miko has her faults as well, and is skirting the line of the Paladin Code. She is quite clearly Lawful Neutral. The only reason she's "Lawful Good" is because some bonehead wrote that on her character sheet in order to make her a paladin, and the DM hasn't gotten around to jacking her for her repeated failure to live up to her alignment. The subtle out-of-character nuances to all of the cast are really quite brilliant.

Roy was quite correct when he told Miko off. She follows the letter of her alignment, but not the spirit or intent. Miko is simply still "Good" because she has committed no one single act to push her over the edge. She knows just how far she can go, and that's what she does time and again. She shows know concern for the dignity of other sentient beings, and hides behind her class as justification for all of her actions. Rather than striving to better herself morally like most of the OotS, Miko allows herself to stagnate out of pride.

Fighting the Order of the Stick the second time (comic #251) was the line. She drew arms and attacked them unprovoked. Had she killed any single one of them in that scenario she would have immediately lost her paladin abilities. This includes Belkar. While he is unquestionably Evil, he is not out spreading it. Belkar's evil is contained, and while so contained there exists the possibility of redemption (which is the single highest moral value of Good). The rest of the OotS is identified as not Evil, and furthermore, if Miko is unable to identify a few of them as Good through their actions, that's simply one more strike against her. Deluded as Lord Shojo and the Sapphire Guard are, Miko was quite out of her jurisdiction. Her first course was diplomacy, which she made only the slightest attempt. Once it was determined that the OotS was not Evil, fighting them was wrong. Killing one means a fallen paladin. Lawful and Chaotic celestials bicker and argue quite often, but they do not take up arms against one another. As I said, Miko knows exactly where the line is. The fact that she consistently walks that line speaks volumes about her.

Belkar is Evil just as surely as Miko is a failure as a paladin. She has every right to kill him, now. He's not contained by Roy, he's on the loose spreading Evil. Only the most exalted of characters would spare Belkar and work towards his redemption at this point, and Miko is only barely skirting the edges of losing her alignment. The interesting thing to note here is the disparity between the two camps.

I find it amusing that some of Belkar's supporters can claim Miko is not Good (perhaps even Evil), yet insist that Belkar is not Evil himself. As if Belkar's upbringing or delusions justify his actions, yet Miko's delusions damn hers. Miko's morally questionable actions aren't magically worse than Belkar's just because her character sheet says "Good".

That being said, Miko's morally questionable actions aren't magically better than Belkar's just because she's a paladin, either. I find it to be very telling that most of Belkar's supporters actually consciously acknowledge that he is Evil. From what I've noticed, Miko's support is derived from her single most damning flaw: she is labeled as a "paladin", and therefore must be Good in the end. This quote is particularly illuminating:

Okay, there, she's DEAD. Are you all HAPPY NOW?! Are all you whiny little Miko haters who think it's cool to hate Good characters because you like to pretend to be Evil HAPPY NOW?! Now everyone SHUT UP ABOUT HATING MIKO!
"The Devil's greatest trick is convincing the world he does not exist." Miko is labeled as a paladin, and because of that people blindly accept that everything she does is Good. This is flawed. Being a paladin is something that one must constantly aspire to. Most people don't hate Miko because it's cool to hate Good characters, we hate her because she's uptight and arrogant. We hate her because she is the very example of the wrong way to play a paladin. At best she's a misguided soul in need of her own redemption. Most likely she's a blackguard waiting to happen. Her fall from grace is fast approaching, and after that she just needs an amiable meeting with an Evil outsider.

Belkar is Evil, and he doesn't hide it. Miko pretends to be Good. Belkar is also a more interesting character, who adds humor to the strip. Until Miko either falls from grace, or works to atone for her own personal faults, she's nothing more than an annoying ancillary character.

Marller

2006-01-21, 06:27 PM

Well, I just happen to have a special exemption given to me from Santa Claus himself. So nyaaa!!!
The gods exist, you say!? The only gods I know exist are Thor, Odin and Loki, (well, and Banjo of course) becuase I saw them in the comic, those "twlelve gods" could come from the bottom of a beer bottle too much for what I know.
And even if they are real, Banjo is a god, too, do you think that this give could give Elan the autority to go around arresting people because Banjo told him so?
See, that's what annoys me about the Anti-Miko people, this uptight, stick-in-the-ass attitude.
But sadly you are no stick-figures and so i have to live with it.

Elkarbay

2006-01-21, 07:08 PM

I am astonished to see this huge fight over likeing/dislikeing a stick figure in a comic that's meant to make you laugh.

Reading these, I don't think I'm obsessed enough to be posting.

On a lighter note: Belkar's motto reminds me of a lot of my friends and that's quite amusing to me. ;D

Lady_Orc

2006-01-21, 07:09 PM

Oh, go to hell. I take it as seriously as I want to take it. Today's comic reminded me of Rorshach's birth in the Watchmen, not any of the other humorous comics in this strip's history.

Everyone who's on Belkar's side on this is siding with an Evil sociopath over an uptight Good person. Hooray to you.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

*nod nod* I also used to cheer for the coyote as he tried to catch the Roadrunner. *cries* Yes...any moment now I will go out and molest a poor innocent little birdie by ramming it up the nether regions of a burning paladin! Smite me! Smite, smite, smite! ;D

Cirin

2006-01-21, 07:20 PM

Well she did go into the inn to save people, but I agree that her lawfullness is far more prominent than her goodnes, and for the record I don't like Miko very much either. I think you miss my point somewhat though. My point is that I think that we'd dislike Miko less if she was not officially good. If she was lawful neatral or better yet lawfull evil then I don't think she'd be as annoying.

Sorry about that. Yeah, if Miko didn't try and claim she was an upstanding pinnacle of Goodness while doing all this, she'd be less hated. She'd still be despised as being prideful, arrogant, overzealous, and still be in desperate need of a real lesson in humility, but the grating of it all her actions being justified as "Good" because she's a Paladin would be gone.

I'm not going to pretend that Belkar is anything other than Chaotic Evil. He's not a nice guy, he's an antihero, a deeply flawed character who needs Roy (and the rest of the OotS) to keep him in line. With them around to curb his more extreme acts and point him in the general direction of enemies like Xylon, he's useful. On his own, he's a public menace.

Miko, on the other hand is Lawful Good On A Technicality, who is a walking, talking example of abuses of the Paladin class and Good alignment. She's a dedicated servant of her lord and enforcer of the law, and under most circumstances she's doing a lot of positive things for the world around her, but her zeal for the law has blinded her to any greater good, and making it possible that she could have a Fall From Grace (would the Miko fans still back her if she became a Blackguard, and acted about the same except maybe just a little more vicious, being technically Lawful Evil but acting Lawful Neutral, like she acts LN now but is technically LG?)?

Evik

2006-01-21, 07:29 PM

GAZ

2006-01-21, 07:40 PM

May I quote the Lord Shojo in saying, "...the Sapphire Gaurd has been given their holy powers by the Twelve Gods of the South to protect the gates. And since the gods are not limited in their jurisdiction, neither are we."

You are approaching this too much in the view of a modern day person. In a world where gods actually exist, and make themselves known, actively, then I think it is quite acceptable for their servants to fulfill their will. Especially if they are for the greater good. Remember, Elan actually did destroy the gates. There is no getting around that.

Then maybe they were under divine arrest, but not legal arrest. Even Shojo said there was a difference between his temporal and his divinely mandated powers.

Lets not forget that the twelve gods of the south aren't the only divine game in town. Durkon has his calls personally answered by Thor. Since he is equally deific and his idea of a good time is getting drunk and throwing lightnight bolts around drunkenly, I suggest that the "will of the gods" not count for too much.

There IS getting around the fact that Elan destoryed gate. He wasn't trying to blow up the gate and he didn't know the gate was somehow linked to the overall existance of the universe. What he was trying to do was overthrow the evil lich Xykon and permenantly take down his evil monster filled evil dungeon of evil.

Well, I just happen to have a special exemption given to me from Santa Claus himself. So nyaaa!!!
The gods exist, you say!? The only gods I know exist are Thor, Odin and Loki, (well, and Banjo of course) becuase I saw them in the comic, those "twlelve gods" could come from the bottom of a beer bottle too much for what I know.
And even if they are real, Banjo is a god, too, do you think that this give could give Elan the autority to go around arresting people because Banjo told him so?

And there's that too.

Adeptus

2006-01-21, 08:05 PM

Because killing evil creatures/beings is not considered evil, while attacking good creatures/beings (with intent to kill) is. I believe there's something like that which is actually in the player's handbook

In a world where gods actually exist, it does.

Our modern view typically rejects supernatural or divine causes, at leasat in the mainstream, so of course by modern standards, it does not.

I've seen this strangeness so many times now that I have to say something.

The fact that something is revealed, commanded or ordained by an actual bona fide deity doesn't make it right or true.

D&D (and the OotS universe) is a polytheistic setting, not the strange monotheism that is currently rampant on much of our own globe.

God's are fallible. They can be petty, spiteful, selfish and just plain wrong. Check out what Thor is actually doing in the strip where the order originally fight Miko:

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=201

Worshippers of a deity hold them in high esteem, and do not doubt their word, but this doesn't make it true.

The_Werebear

2006-01-21, 08:07 PM

I think it's important that Miko said "AAARHH!" iinstead of, say, "AAAAHH!" or "AAIIEE!" or "NNOOOO!"

Whereas "AAIIEE!" might be said by someone seriously burnt, "AAARHH!" implies frustration as much or more than it does pain.

You hit it right on the head. Miko has taken between 5-15 points of damage out of hundreds. She is pissed off beyond all reason now, but she is barely injured.

Lets compare injuries really quick from in the past.

Miko's slashing: http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=200 Versus http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=215

Note that Roy gets hit a dozen to two dozen times and is simply very scratched and beaten up. He is still on his feet and has enough spare HP to take a two handed coup de grace. Whereas to the ogre cheif, with maybe a quarter of Roy's HP, the initial half dozen slashes is enough to send him deep into negatives. The more HP you have, the less you get injured from the same attacks. It represents natural toughness.

Now, Belkar. http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=261 and http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=107 versus http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=270

The same dagger attacks have profoundly different effects. To the low HP guard and goblin, those attacks are instant death. However, Miko eats those attacks without even flinching.

From this evidence, we can make some guesses. The fire, since it would probably deal in the range of 5-20 HP, will barely mess up Miko's hair. However, it would easily kill several guards or goblins.

Wizard of the Coat

2006-01-21, 08:12 PM

Even if Miko is taking low damage in game. The party is known to move at the speed of plot. Maybe hitpoints are lost at the speed of plot as well. So this may have gravely injured Miko, the screaming certainly sounds like it (never heard her do that before).

The_Werebear

2006-01-21, 08:18 PM

But she has never been this frustrated before.

Scion_of_the_Light

2006-01-21, 08:39 PM

She obeys a clearly insane religious tyrant who imposes his laws on the rest of the world because of a blind zealotry to a supposedly "good" deity who wants people executed for mistakes, who considered executing people without trial in foriegn lands perfectly acceptable judicial procedure (remember Miko's first appearance), and has no problem sending bounty hunters into foriegn kingdoms to impose their law on others. Roy saw this, he tried to argue this, but Shojo refused to listen, because he's both clearly insane, and he's blinded to any logic by his religious zealotry.

Well, I think you're laying it a little hard on Lord Shojo. I highly doubt he is highly insane and zealous, as you think. He might be a little senile, but his mental faculties seem quite intact (either that, or Mr. Scruffy is sentient) . And I don't even think he is super zealous. I mean, yeah, he does his deity's will, likley without question. So does Durkon. I don't see you calling Durkon insanely zealous. The fact is that we just don't know much about Lord Shojo, and that I think we need slightly more knowlege about him before we call him insane or anything of the like.

Adeptus

2006-01-21, 08:47 PM

Belkar is so cool! All of Miko's pretty hair gone....ha ha. she so deserved it though.
lol.

No it isn't. At least not automatically. Both V and Hailey got hit with a maximized fireball some strips in the past, and their hair is fine. Not even their clothes got damaged.

1) It's a stick figure comic. The characters have only so many features to them (and it's absolutely beautifylly done!). Hair will no get burned off. Singed possibly.

2) If fireballs just deal damage (not gruesome napalm-like burn injuries) then so does burning alcohol.

rosebud

2006-01-21, 08:53 PM

At best she's a misguided soul in need of her own redemption. Most likely she's a blackguard waiting to happen.It's nice to see people are seeing the many possibilities. None of knows, well, one of us knows what will happen, the rest are speculating. There are wonderful opportunies for plot twists, though. Shojo and Miko are sufficiently sinister in #120 to question whether all is as it seems. (Note: I'm not saying all is not as it seems. I'm just saying it's improper to assume otherwise, either.)

Until Miko either falls from grace, or works to atone for her own personal faults, she's nothing more than an annoying ancillary character.But one who brings out the best and worst in people! :D

gken1

2006-01-21, 09:11 PM

well, I hope Miko makes it!

too bad her and Roy couldn't become an item....he needs a girl to chill out some.....

WildBill

2006-01-21, 09:16 PM

I was just thinking that it is too bad that Belkar took that level of Barbarian instead of taking a level of Rouge it would of made him more deadly I think.
He could do alot more damage sniping from the shadows that way.
Not to mention alot of handy skills for an devious evil
genius.
Nah, the way I read Belkar's character, the rage ability is is alot more useful. #270 shows he probably has a positive INT modifier, combined with probably 11 levels of ranger, thats still alot of skill points. And the extra d6 of sneak attack doesn't help him as much as the rage. Assuming 6 attacks per round (3 main, 3 off hand, BAB +10/+5/+0) he potentially gains +12 damage per round (2 per attack). Even if he only hits with the 2 +10 attacks per round 90% of the time, you still have an average of ~4.5 extra damage per round for as long as the rage is in effect. Way better than SA. Belkar's player is a power gamer. I think he did the math and looked at Belkar's combat style before he multiclassed.

evileeyore

2006-01-21, 09:46 PM

Nah, the way I read Belkar's character, the rage ability is is alot more useful. #270 shows he probably has a positive INT modifier, combined with probably 11 levels of ranger, thats still alot of skill points. And the extra d6 of sneak attack doesn't help him as much as the rage. Assuming 6 attacks per round (3 main, 3 off hand, BAB +10/+5/+0) he potentially gains +12 damage per round (2 per attack). Even if he only hits with the 2 +10 attacks per round 90% of the time, you still have an average of ~4.5 extra damage per round for as long as the rage is in effect. Way better than SA. Belkar's player is a power gamer. I think he did the math and looked at Belkar's combat style before he multiclassed.
Now. The player is a player. He went with Belkar's preferred style, stabbity-doom and the coolness of Death From Above over substance.

As a TWF, if he took QuickDraw he could draw and throw 6 daggers a round. With Rapid Shot he could one extra. 7 daggers a round.

If got delerious ideas about a Halfling Rogue with Halfling Rogue substitution levels and those feats.... drool....

Right now he is taking a standard and moving (breaking line of sight and reHiding as a part of move) to avoid -20 Sniping penalty.

Corolinth

2006-01-21, 09:49 PM

Sneak attack would go much further towards helping him nickel and dime Miko to death, though, and that's the tactic Belkar has to use to win. If Belkar rages, the AC penalty is going to open him up too wide for Miko's stunning fist. The bare minimum save DC for her stunning fist would be 17 (she can't be lower than 12, she has at least two monk levels and at least three smites per day), and could be as high as 22 with an 18 wisdom at level 16 (I doubt she's much higher, or has a wisdom over 18 ).

If we assume Belkar is level 12, his fort save modifier is at least +9, +11 while raging. Probably a few points higher for constitution (+11/+13 perhaps, with a con of 14/18 ). Actually, now that I do the math he should have a pretty good chance of resisting her stunning fist. Miko shouldn't have been able to keep him locked down with stunning fist throughout the entire railroad-plot fight back in comic #251. Rage probably is the ticket to beating her down once he exhausts her paladin abilities.

plommon

2006-01-21, 09:52 PM

burn miko buuuurn!!! :-*
wait a minute...? she had it coming for her! wohoo! go belkar!

evileeyore

2006-01-21, 10:21 PM

Miko shouldn't have been able to keep him locked down with stunning fist throughout the entire railroad-plot fight back in comic #251. Rage probably is the ticket to beating her down once he exhausts her paladin abilities.
Be be honest he only failed twice. Not that difficult to believe.

I've seen players go through streaks of not rolling above a 5 on the d20 all night...

Incabulos

2006-01-21, 10:49 PM

Left to his own devices Belkar will toment Miko like a cat with a captured mouse, and just as cruelly. While I think she could do with her ego being taken down a peg or two, I dont want to see her tortured and tormented to either the point of death, or to the point where she does a very un-paladin like act, is disgraced in the eyes of her gods, and loses her Paladin abilities.

Hopefully the remainder of the OotS charge to the rescue of Miko ( a lovely irony that would be ) and noone ends up dying. I could see Belkar burning down not just the fortress, but the whole city too, if only out of spite and nastiness.

Saki is a sufficiently vile substance in its natural state, being coated with the stuff set ablaze would be no fun at all :(

Brilliant comic. Xykon for all his immortal boney evil intellect cant hold a candle to Belkar. Even mundane and nonmagical fire is a risk to doughty adventurors everywhere, scrolls, spellbooks, potions, magical clothing ( gauntlets, cloaks, girdles, boots etc ) will be at great risk of destruction, and even things like enchanted light armours like studded leather will be destroyed fairly quickly.

Caledonian

2006-01-21, 11:02 PM

Let's keep things in perspective - a +1 modifier granted by a sufficiently high intelligence score only increases the chance of success on rolls of reasonable difficulty by five percent. That's insignificant. The bonus skillpoints are another matter entirely, but we don't know how they were spent.

3.0 and 3.5 D&D really aren't very good at making high attribute scores meaningful. 2e was actually much better, ironically - having to roll under your score for an attribute check meant even odd scores were useful, and an 11 was detectably better than a 10.

rosebud

2006-01-21, 11:08 PM

too bad her and Roy couldn't become an item....he needs a girl to chill out some.....He still has the belt...

Maxymiuk

2006-01-21, 11:30 PM

Corolinth

2006-01-21, 11:38 PM

Making a spot check is a standard action.

The Vorpal Tribble

2006-01-21, 11:45 PM

"Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action. Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action."

Oznstuff

2006-01-21, 11:47 PM

He still has the belt...

ooh, that's just wrong! lol

Alfryd

2006-01-22, 12:35 AM

I found it funny, not because she got burned, but because of the whole thing going on here. And as its an adventurer's comic strip, its supposed to be funny, and I'm sure it was intended as such.
It's a very-well constructed comic, but funny in the same way you can laugh at pulling the legs off spiders. It may not be serious, but it's still horrible.
Obviously Belkar is behaving very rationally and creatively in pursuit of his chosen objective- but the objective is overwhelmingly probably evil.

Yeah, heavens forbid that a paladin would get a wizard to cast Charm Person on the subject, rather than torturing the subject for information. Charm Person would cause an instant fall from grace, I'm sure.
If you have a wizard to hand, I'm sure that would count as a non-evil alternative. To kill is always an act of evil, even if you're killing an evil person. But letting them live could be worse. Contrary to what Miko believes, Paladins are all about compromise, comromise between the bad and the worse. They may dress it up in an honour code so they don't have to think about it, but the fact remains.

Torture to save innocent lives is not an evil act, but something done out of defense.
No, it's still an evil act. But not torturing would be an even more evil act, under the circumstances.

If this was real life, no I wouldn't [support Belkar]

You appear to need help separating reality from fantasy.
The reasons for liking Belkar and disliking Miko are just as fictional as they are. You can reasonably scale the real-life reaction, but not invert it.

More like, roughed up a bit, knocked out and tied up again.
Arguably, the OotS commited an evil act this way, since Sam and Pa were still free to wreak havoc. As the former apparently fully intended to.

Even if Miko is taking low damage in game. The party is known to move at the speed of plot...

Personally, I felt tremendous empathy for Roy when his sword was shattered and he stood there dealing with his memories.
Hmm. Things did get kinda railroaded then. As Belkar pointed out, they ran away from Goblins, how were they supposed to defeat a powerful necromancer?

...Belkar needs to run out of the storeroom and bar it from the outside...
Oh, f*ck. He could do it, too.

...were clearly more out of a sense of duty or obligation, not compassion, mercy, love, or any "good" motivation...
If you are going to attribute all her acts of apparent benevolence to a sense of duty and insist they are no reflection on her personally, the same applies to her acts of apparent nastiness. You can't have it both ways.
Goodness IS a paladin's duty. Her duty was also to escort the prisoners straight to Shoho, but she deviated to rescue helpless peasants. She also spent extra cash on prisoner accomodations that went beyond the bounds of reasonable, let alone minimal, expenditures.

* Permanency
* Owl's Wisdom
* Raise Dead.
I checked, I don't think you can apply Permanency to Owl's Wisdom.

As a paladin, Miko was quite right to insist that the ogres arm themselves before combat.
If, as a result of allowing the ogres arm themselves, they beat you, then go on to rape, burn and pillage and what have you, you will be at least partially responsible for that carnage, and hence will have commited an evil act. Your definition of goodness is Lawful Stupid. Goodness involves protecting innocent life, period, end of discussion. How you go about it is a question of ethics, not morals.

Fighting the Order of the Stick the second time (comic #251) was the line. She drew arms and attacked them unprovoked.
She was technically justified, within the limits of her knowledge, in using whatever means at her disposal to have them comply with their arrest. You may criticise her for not at least attempting a 'kiss & make up option' first, but Roy stated directly that they weren't coming quietly except in chains, and she was incensed with simmering rage.

Belkar's evil is contained...
I'm sure the guard felt very comfortable about it's 'containment'. Contained evil isn't.

Miko knows exactly where the line is. The fact that she consistently walks that line speaks volumes about her.
Yes. it means that she operates alone, in foreign countries, without backup, where the slightest error in favour of her opponents may well be her last. So she squeezes every advantage she possibly can within the bounds of her alignment, in the interest of serving that alignment. Because she isn't Lawful Stupid.

...from what I've noticed, Miko's support is derived from her single most damning flaw: she is labeled as a "paladin"...
No, she's good in the end, because, whenever her course of action was not specifically proscribed by orders from above, she has worked to PROTECT INNOCENT LIFE.

...would the Miko fans still back her if she became a Blackguard...
Personally, hell no. I would be gravely disappointed.

Then maybe they were under divine arrest, but not legal arrest...
Lawful does not literally mean 'legal.' It means 'organised.'

Check out what Thor is actually doing in the strip where the order originally fight Miko:
Yes, but the celestials take note. So someone up there was paying attention.
Shojo is not insane. He is merely eccentric.

Xykon for all his immortal boney evil intellect cant hold a candle to Belkar.
See, that's the thing about CE, rather than LE. Xykon has to think big, and hasn't time to invest in the finer details of unbearable torment.

afflictedkender

2006-01-22, 12:37 AM

Does anyone else think Miko and Belkar are similar? (At least in the role they play within the comic). Both are pretty annoying and arrogant, both take the plot to places the rest of the Order doesn't really want to go, and both are excellent examples of playing by alignment.

Also, interestingly enough, it seems to me that there are a number of situations in which Belkar and Miko would act similarly (although, of course, for different reasons). I'll try to articulate a few examples and edit this post. (Example: Remember when Miko killed the bandit and his daughter? I'm fairly sure that if Belkar encountered them on his own, he would react much the same way).

I think this Belkar/Miko conflict is necessary to the plot. Rich has been building towards this fight for a while now, and to dismiss it with "Belkar/Miko should win and Miko/Belkar should die because I hate them" seems a little premature.

First time poster, as I'm sure you can see ;D

EDIT: They're also both kind of dense in social situations (see comic #22 and the first panel of #214 among others). (Also #220 and #221)

Tharr

2006-01-22, 12:37 AM

Yes about final justice no more hair MIko your on fire.
Belkar use poison she would be dead.
The scence this reminded me of was Die Hard.
Drop the C-4 and run.
Welcome to the party pal.

Ravyn

2006-01-22, 12:50 AM

Miko comes across as redeemable; she means well, even if her methods are a bit dubious. Belkar's funny, but he's stepped beyond the threshold of redemption. Far beyond, in fact. Perhaps I'm just a sucker for return to grace, but I'm for Miko surviving (preferably by sucking up her honor and asking someone for help, but can't win everything, hm?) and somehow regaining her humanity. I'll bet there's a lot of attitude-explaining backstory, and we haven't even scratched the surface; that's no state for a character to die in!

Then again, it could partly be that she reminds me of a few mistakes I made with one of my characters a while back, so she's a lot easier for me to sympathize with, while Belkar comes across as just plain wrong.

Either way--agree or not with the events, I think this one proves the Giant really knows what he's doing. Well done!

aaronbourque

2006-01-22, 12:56 AM

And as far as Miko is concerned, anyone rooting for her is just weird and should probably be locked up.
This attitude is exactly why it doesn't pay to be both Good and nice.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

aaronbourque

2006-01-22, 01:03 AM

Well, Aaron, much as I usually agree with you, here we have the parting of the ways. :) I am a devoted paronomasiac.
NO!

PUNS BLOW!

ARGH!

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; I melting, melting!

aaronbourque

2006-01-22, 01:07 AM

Folks, this is the self-proclaimed LG person speaking! Remember - he doesn't have to be nice to be LG!
That's right. "Go to hell" is just a figure of speech. I couldn't tell him to do something anatomically compromising because it'd be censored on this board and it was much to harsh for the idea I was trying to convey. "Go to hell" was just harsh enough.

Besides, I dare anyone here to find a post be me on these forums where I was mean without any justifications.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; and I've never claimed to be nice, anyway. Neither has Miko.

aaronbourque

2006-01-22, 01:14 AM

And doesn't Miko's hard-headedness remind you of Rorschach lack of capacity to compromise, make deals, and act for the better good in general?
Not really. They're almost unrelated character traits.

But there are at least two very profound differences between Miko and Rorschach:

1) We're brought along for the ride through Rorschach's psychoses and traumas. We know him intimately, and by the time we learn just how far he's willing to go, we know exactly why he felt he needed to go there.

2) Rorschach goes even further than Miko in the service of the greater good, so far, in fact, that he is close to never reaching that greater good himself. It could be argued that that's why he makes the final choice he makes, as well.

Did the OOTS deseve being chained, dragged, treated like slaves, being abused and brought to trial?
In that order, no. But that wasn't the order she treated them, either, and she had her reasons for treating them the way she treated them. They may not have been the best of reasons, but they were the best she could do given her character.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

aaronbourque

2006-01-22, 01:18 AM

I am a prime Miko-hater. But not because she's Good. Because she's NOT Good. She's "Good" only by the GM fiat that her class requires her to be "Lawful Good", not by any fact of her behavior being "Good". She's not acted like a Lawful Good character, her actions have been strictly Lawful Neutral.
Isn't the same--except for the class requirements--true of Vaarsuvius?

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

aaronbourque

2006-01-22, 01:23 AM

I also used to cheer for the coyote as he tried to catch the Roadrunner.
I did, too, but that was because the Road Runner was an annoying twerp of a bully picking on a starving, unappreciated nerd.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

afflictedkender

2006-01-22, 01:27 AM

I'm not so sure that Belkar is irredeemable. According to some of the early strips, his evil alignment has to do with his low wisdom score. I think someone mentioned making an Owl's Wisdom spell permanent, and even though it isn't technically possible, I think there's got to be some way to give him a higher wisdom, long-term. Not that I think that'll happen, but i'm just saying.

aaronbourque

2006-01-22, 01:31 AM

Hyrael

2006-01-22, 01:34 AM

A real Belkar scares the heck out of me.

But then, so does a real Miko.

Nice try.

True Dat.

People like Miko should be avoided like the plague.

But, if it was down to being stuck on, say, a desert island with Miko or belkar, Id pick ol' stick-up-her-ass any day. think about it for a second: a three-foot tall knife weilding hunter who really doesnt see anything wrong with killing you for the fun of it. Im glad several realities and a continuum or two separate me from belkar.

afflictedkender

2006-01-22, 01:53 AM

Tome of Clear Thought: permanent increase to Wisdom, up to +5. It's very very expensive, though.

Thanks much, I don't have the patience to get out my books and dig through them.

It's interesting to note that the entire OotS has technically committed an evil act by freely associating with Belkar (or is that part of the paladin's qualifications? I can never remember...still, I guess it counts as an "evil" act either way). Roy has even defended Belkar and glossed over the fact that he was evil (Back when Miko first confronted the Order).

Duraska

2006-01-22, 01:53 AM

True Dat.

People like Miko should be avoided like the plague.

But, if it was down to being stuck on, say, a desert island with Miko or belkar, Id pick ol' stick-up-her-ass any day. think about it for a second: a three-foot tall knife weilding hunter who really doesnt see anything wrong with killing you for the fun of it. Im glad several realities and a continuum or two separate me from belkar.

I'd choose Miko too, but for different reasons. :)

The Lady Auneredra

2006-01-22, 02:00 AM

I don't see why people are so gun-ho in thinking that a main character's going to die, especially a party/good character. Think about it: all the people who've died are either monsters, baddies, or disposable. Like the red suits on Star Trek, or whatever. I don't quite think Miko's going to die, because there's still conflict left to resolve. I know Belkar's not going to die because he's been in the series since strip numero uno. I mean, c'mon. He's the Belkster.

evileeyore

2006-01-22, 02:54 AM

Anyone noticed that those daggers are always striking Miko from behind?

Now, I'm not 100% sure on what the RAW says on that, but somehow I doubt Miko could even attempt a Spot check to see Belkar through the back of her own head. So either his penalty to rehide is much, much smaller (or even not there at all) or we count turning around and making a spot check as a free action, in which case what I said is complete bunk.

Just my opinion.There is no facing in D&D 3.X

I checked, I don't think you can apply Permanency to Owl's Wisdom.
And yo can't cast Owl's Wisdom on a corpse.

So it would have to go:

Raise Dead
Owl's Wisdom
Modified Twinkied Permanency

Lady_Orc

2006-01-22, 03:01 AM

I did, too, but that was because the Road Runner was an annoying twerp of a bully picking on a starving, unappreciated nerd.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

I also tend to cheer as good old Lord Vader chokes the living daylights out of people while making a snappy remark, and was pleased as Hannibal got away towards the end of Silence of the Lambs. Now, think carefully - is that because I am an Evil Overlord with cannibalistic tendencies irl, or could it possibly be because they are fictional people?

aaronbourque

2006-01-22, 03:02 AM

But, if it was down to being stuck on, say, a desert island with Miko or belkar, Id pick ol' stick-up-her-ass any day. think about it for a second: a three-foot tall knife weilding hunter who really doesnt see anything wrong with killing you for the fun of it. Im glad several realities and a continuum or two separate me from belkar.
Not only that, but, uh, being of the opposite gender, Miko would see it as Lawful and inevitable that we had sex.

Purely for procreation, of course.

. . .

Yeah.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; doing it with hot asian chick isn't a fantasy of mine, and hasn't been one since I was fourteen. At. All.

aaronbourque

2006-01-22, 03:04 AM

Lady_Orc

2006-01-22, 03:15 AM

Uh, what is "Neither," Alex?

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

So is that an 'I don't know' or 'I don't want to play any more'?

Duraska

2006-01-22, 03:21 AM

I also tend to cheer as good old Lord Vader chokes the living daylights out of people while making a snappy remark, and was pleased as Hannibal got away towards the end of Silence of the Lambs. Now, think carefully - is that because I am an Evil Overlord with cannibalistic tendencies irl, or could it possibly be because they are fictional people?

It means you're totally evil! ;D :P

But look on the bright side: Some hero is gonna become MAJORLY famous by defeating you one day. So actually, in a wierd, inverse sort of way, that makes you good.

...but since you're good, that's actually bad, so you're evil again. However, setting out to be evil can only lead to a good outcome, therefore you'd be considered "evil" by all the other would-be evil doers out there...

"When your name is Evil, that is good (or so you think, but you're so very wrong... it's EVIL). But being wrong is right, so then you're good again... which is the evilest thing of all."

This is getting way above my 10 int skill...

Musrum

2006-01-22, 03:33 AM

Friv

2006-01-22, 03:48 AM

Evileeyore: There are enhancement items, though. And a helm of Wisdom +4 is only 16,000 GP, which is well within the range of a party of this level. ;)

As an aside to an earlier poster, Paladins are not about compromise. They are in fact quite specifically not about compromise. They are about redemption and goodness. A paladin would not torture someone for information in that situation and keep their powers. That is the downside to being Good. (The downside to being evil is lack of trust and eventual self-destruction).

rosebud

2006-01-22, 05:21 AM

She also spent extra cash on prisoner accomodations that went beyond the bounds of reasonable, let alone minimal, expenditures.Technically, she never actually paid anything. :) Although you could argue she bartered (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=246) for payment.

If, as a result of allowing the ogres arm themselves, they beat you, then go on to rape, burn and pillage and what have you, you will be at least partially responsible for that carnage, and hence will have commited an evil act.I disagree. It's not evil to fight and fail. It is evil to commit evil in the furtherance of good. Some are willing to take that expediency and can be still be considered, on the whole, good. For a paladin, that's not a line to cross. Mind you, in this particular case, it was an issue of honor rather than morality. And it also happened to fit in her battle strategy.

If it were the case that, if defeated, they agreed to rape, burn, and pillage the town, then they would be commiting an evil act. But it's the rape, burn, and pillage part that would be evil.

Mind you, I believe that it can be ethical to commit small indescretions in the furtherance of good, but it doesn't make them good acts because the goal is good. And there are plenty of cases where it paves the road to hell.

She was technically justified, within the limits of her knowledge, in using whatever means at her disposal to have them comply with their arrest.And what was the net result? At least one guard is dead. By your reckonging, Miko thus committed an evil act. (Which is also why I disagree with your argument that the ends determines the morality of the means.)

You may criticise her for not at least attempting a 'kiss & make up option' first, but Roy stated directly that they weren't coming quietly except in chains, and she was incensed with simmering rage.Roy said a lot of things. She didn't listen to a lot of them before. Simmering rage isn't exactly a good justification. Remember the dead guard?

it means that she operates alone, in foreign countries, without backup, where the slightest error in favour of her opponents may well be her last.Hey, don't forget that she has Windstriker. :) I still think she's too quick to violence and too slow to admit error. She committed several errors, and several of them not slight.

I'm willing to believe she is LG, but she's strained the bounds of paladin. Even if you allow that, she's still deeply flawed and can at least be considered a tragic hero.

Cirin

2006-01-22, 05:28 AM

Isn't the same--except for the class requirements--true of Vaarsuvius?I don't even know what alignment V. is supposed to be. I kinda guessed True Neutral. If he/she is technically supposed to be Good aligned, I guess I could see that.

The thing is, with Miko, her alignment MUST be Lawful Good, and not just Lawful Good, but a particularly high standard of Lawful Good. Miko's alignment is a big issue because all her actions have to be held to a high standard of behavior. V has no alignment restrictions, and doesn't make an issue out of what his/her alignment really is.

Corolinth

2006-01-22, 06:01 AM

If, as a result of allowing the ogres arm themselves, they beat you, then go on to rape, burn and pillage and what have you, you will be at least partially responsible for that carnage, and hence will have commited an evil act. Your definition of goodness is Lawful Stupid. Goodness involves protecting innocent life, period, end of discussion. How you go about it is a question of ethics, not morals.You may not like it, but that's what's presented time and again in D&D supplements. Certain acts are Evil, period. Torture is one of them, murder is another. Goodness is not "protecting innocent life, period, end of discussion". You can not compromise your own alignment in the process, because doing so is making a concession to Evil.

You present, quite clearly, why the vast majority of players are totally incapable of playing a Good character. Good is hard. When true Good is presented, it's shrugged off as being Lawful Stupid. But this is not the real world. Good is not an ambiguous concept, it's a tangible thing. The heavenly powers smile upon the virtuous who walk the straight and narrow.

I'm sure the guard felt very comfortable about it's 'containment'. Contained evil isn't.Traveling with Roy could very well have led to Belkar's redemption. Who separated them?

No, she's good in the end, because, whenever her course of action was not specifically proscribed by orders from above, she has worked to PROTECT INNOCENT LIFE.This doesn't make her Good, merely keeps her from being Evil. She's blindly following orders, never stopping to question whether she's actually doing Good.

rosebud

2006-01-22, 06:04 AM

And a helm of Wisdom +4 is only 16,000 GP, which is well within the range of a party of this level. ;)Do they come in kobold? :D

"Go to hell" was just harsh enough.I respectfully disagree. "I respectfully disagree" maintains a friendly spirit. There's some conflicts that are not resolvable by debate.

Anyone noticed that those daggers are always striking Miko from behind?No, only that they were spinning. Thanks for pointing that out. The dearth of comments on the artwork is a bit vexing.

Does anyone else think Miko and Belkar are similar?I'm still advocating the Miko and Belkar spinoff... :)

Remember when Miko killed the bandit and his daughter? I'm fairly sure that if Belkar encountered them on his own, he would react much the same way.Nah, he'd kill them while they were still tied. Subtle stylistic difference.

I also used to cheer for the coyote as he tried to catch the Roadrunner.As a kid or later? I think kids like the Roadrunner. Adults prefer the existential Coyote.

I'm not so sure that Belkar is irredeemable. According to some of the early strips, his evil alignment has to do with his low wisdom score.But OOTS already has a healer (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=6) and they really need the extra attack power (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=144).

It's interesting to note that the entire OotS has technically committed an evil act by freely associating with BelkarGood thing they're not paladins, eh?

Think about it: all the people who've died are either monsters, baddies, or disposable.Have you ever played FF VII? :(

Marller

2006-01-22, 06:34 AM

GeeVee

2006-01-22, 08:07 AM

How much of this situation is actually Miko's fault?

It was Miko who decided to seperate Belkar from the rest of the team and stick him in the pit.

We know, and I'm sure Miko had opportunity to observe, that the other OotS members act as a brake on Belkar's bitter nature.

So she ripped him out of his moral support group, and stuck him in a hole with only his personal demons for company. A very effective form of psycological torture.

She then failed to ensure the prisoner was secure. Maybe, doing what was required was just too "icky" for her...

And then the ego trip, persuing the perp by herself when she had a castle full of backup available...

In summary: cruel; incompetent; arrogant; ... and if she was a PC -> dead.

To begin with, Belkar specifically asked to be alone in that hole. He hid his Ring of Jumping just so he could escape later. Miko couldn't have known he had a the ring. Not to mention that I'm pretty sure any paladin with a decent code of honor wouldn't search at his...you know. Failed to ensure that the prisoner was secure? Hole with no way up and three locks and a regular patrol to bring him food and such.
IMO it was in fact very nice of her not to put him in a straightjacket. I would have done that if I was guarding a psychopathic killer.
Her not bringing support wasn't ego trip, but pride, which is a flaw in itself, however. Yes, she really needs to work on her personality, but she's a good person.

Lady_Orc

2006-01-22, 08:11 AM

It means you're totally evil! ;D :P

But look on the bright side: Some hero is gonna become MAJORLY famous by defeating you one day. So actually, in a wierd, inverse sort of way, that makes you good.

...but since you're good, that's actually bad, so you're evil again. However, setting out to be evil can only lead to a good outcome, therefore you'd be considered "evil" by all the other would-be evil doers out there...

"When your name is Evil, that is good (or so you think, but you're so very wrong... it's EVIL). But being wrong is right, so then you're good again... which is the evilest thing of all."

This is getting way above my 10 int skill...

Oh, getting way, way to complicated there! But for the record, I don't think that being good is the same as being bad. I happen to adore all of the OOTS, and they are mostly good, with Durkon and Roy being defined as LG even. I just think that Miko is a perfect parody of the kind of 'LG' character that I and many people with me love to hate.

Lady_Orc

2006-01-22, 08:18 AM

You may not like it, but that's what's presented time and again in D&D supplements. Certain acts are Evil, period. Torture is one of them, murder is another. Goodness is not "protecting innocent life, period, end of discussion". You can not compromise your own alignment in the process, because doing so is making a concession to Evil.

You present, quite clearly, why the vast majority of players are totally incapable of playing a Good character. Good is hard. When true Good is presented, it's shrugged off as being Lawful Stupid. But this is not the real world. Good is not an ambiguous concept, it's a tangible thing. The heavenly powers smile upon the virtuous who walk the straight and narrow.

Traveling with Roy could very well have led to Belkar's redemption. Who separated them?

This doesn't make her Good, merely keeps her from being Evil. She's blindly following orders, never stopping to question whether she's actually doing Good.

Agreed. Nobody ever said that being Good, or a paladin, is supposed to be easy. The downside to getting the nifty powers is that sometimes you will have to make hard moral decisions, and you have to live up to certain ideals (Which come to much more than 'Smite Evil'.)

A paladin can't be expected to be omnipotent and know the outcome of every situation, of course. But they are expected to not commit acts of evil, and I definitely count torture as such. A paladin, in my mind, is supposed to lead by example, and show the people around them what it means to be truly good, as opposed to just 'anti-evil'.

Dark_Stalion

2006-01-22, 08:28 AM

I wonder if anyone is still pushing the theory of Belkar being CN after this strip.

kerberos

2006-01-22, 09:17 AM

I wonder if anyone is still pushing the theory of Belkar being CN after this strip.
Why not? He doesn't do anything evil in it. Belkar is clearly CE, but this strip is far from the best example of it.

evileeyore

2006-01-22, 10:05 AM

As an aside to an earlier poster, Paladins are not about compromise. They are in fact quite specifically not about compromise. They are about redemption and goodness. A paladin would not torture someone for information in that situation and keep their powers. That is the downside to being Good. (The downside to being evil is lack of trust and eventual self-destruction).You are correct about Paladins not being about compromise. To some degree. All things must make compromises at times, and such is actually allowed under a Lawful Alignment, and at times required under a Good Alingnment.

What a Paladin should not do is compromise their morals or integrity to get things the easy way. Torture is the easy way, no Paladin should ever condone torture, torture is Evil at worst and Neutral at best.

The thing is, with Miko, her alignment MUST be Lawful Good, and not just Lawful Good, but a particularly high standard of Lawful Good. Miko's alignment is a big issue because all her actions have to be held to a high standard of behavior. V has no alignment restrictions, and doesn't make an issue out of what his/her alignment really is.
Erroneous. Her alignment is no more restrictive than Roy's. This is apparently a very common misconception.

Let me make it clear, she needs to be no more Lawful or Good than any other Lawful or Good person to remain Lawful and Good.

Her Paladin class is more restrictive about her actions in that she may never committ an Evil act or grossly violate her Paladin Code or she loses her powers and can no longer advance until atonement.

Ilaun_Undil

2006-01-22, 10:56 AM

I wonder if anyone is still pushing the theory of Belkar being CN after this strip.
in doing this... is Belkar really evil. Sure he is attacking a paladin, but he was being held prisonertaken agianst his will. provoked by an ethnocentric B**** so in reality if this were to happen he is merely just using a boobie trap. most of what he is doing would be done by any PC stuck in a similar situation.

Though i can't wait to see a Belkar rage. that just sounds scary. Miko is probably going to go better next time anyway, Belkar can't use dark to hide himself anymore.

theKOT

2006-01-22, 11:11 AM

To begin with, Belkar specifically asked to be alone in that hole. He hid his Ring of Jumping just so he could escape later. Miko couldn't have known he had a the ring. Not to mention that I'm pretty sure any paladin with a decent code of honor wouldn't search at his...you know. Failed to ensure that the prisoner was secure? Hole with no way up and three locks and a regular patrol to bring him food and such.
IMO it was in fact very nice of her not to put him in a straightjacket. I would have done that if I was guarding a psychopathic killer.
Her not bringing support wasn't ego trip, but pride, which is a flaw in itself, however. Yes, she really needs to work on her personality, but she's a good person.
Well , actually, he didn't specifically ask to be put in that hole, she put him there because of the "emotional duress" caused by durkon's snoring. But the rest of what you are saying I agree with.

Zantetsuken_Kokoro

2006-01-22, 11:14 AM

Escaping from unjust imprisonment is never evil.

Setting your captor on fire just because you want to see them suffer is evil, however.

kerberos

2006-01-22, 11:43 AM

Escaping from unjust imprisonment is never evil.

Setting your captor on fire just because you want to see them suffer is evil, however.

On the other hand setting your captors on fire because you need to escape, and that's what you can do with the avaliable resources is not evil. Of course in Belkars case, wanting to see Miko suffer, is probably at least as important as escaping.

Wrecan

2006-01-22, 12:00 PM

He's not interested in escaping. I fhe were, he would not have told Miko where he was going. He would not have spent time setting up traps that would annoy her more than hurt her. He would have just escaped and left and use his Hide and Move Silently Skill to make sure Miko never found him again.

He didn't. He chose to stay behind for the express purpose of hunting, hurting and then killing her.

evileeyore

2006-01-22, 12:12 PM

Escaping from unjust imprisonment is never evil.

Setting your captor on fire just because you want to see them suffer is evil, however.
Killing guards when it is unnescarry, sticking around for revenge, and lighting your foes on fire for kicks are Evil.

BTW, escaping from unjust imprisonment could be considered Chaotic.

Sebastian

2006-01-22, 12:22 PM

See, that's what annoys me about the Anti-Miko people, this uptight, stick-in-the-ass attitude.
But sadly you are no stick-figures and so i have to live with it.
Someone said that what we most hate in the others are our flaws that we saw reflected in them. This seems to be the perfect example.

Beside for the same reason shouldn't be you hate Miko, too? For her own admission she have a stick up her ass

Ilaun_Undil

2006-01-22, 12:23 PM

For all we know Belkar is opperating on the suspicsion, and probably true one, that if he would escape Miko would go after him. He knew this battle was going to come adventually so he just picked the time and place for his battle. no evil in that.

as a side note, if antagonists were this good, I would have a lot more respect for Bond.

Sebastian

2006-01-22, 12:58 PM

Isn't the same--except for the class requirements--true of Vaarsuvius?

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

Varsavius IS lawful neutral, or at least never claimed to be lawful good, what is your point?

Sebastian

2006-01-22, 01:02 PM

Thanks much, I don't have the patience to get out my books and dig through them.

It's interesting to note that the entire OotS has technically committed an evil act by freely associating with Belkar (or is that part of the paladin's qualifications? I can never remember...still, I guess it counts as an "evil" act either way). Roy has even defended Belkar and glossed over the fact that he was evil (Back when Miko first confronted the Order).
Actually it is a good act, they keep him in check. nothing of what happened with the guard would have happened if he was in the same cell with Roy, or even Varsavius, and if someone didn't thought to put him alone, in a dark pit, for the gods know how much.
And then there are those who wonder why it is so more evil than usual.

aaronbourque

2006-01-22, 01:03 PM

So is that an 'I don't know' or 'I don't want to play any more'?
Um, what is "Neither," Alex?

Just because you have a different attitude than a LG person doesn't mean you're evil.

There are at least five other options out there.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

Falkus

2006-01-22, 01:08 PM

Escaping from unjust imprisonment is never evil.

What about escaping from just imprisonment? This is Belkar we're talking about.

aaronbourque

2006-01-22, 01:12 PM

Varsavius IS lawful neutral, or at least never claimed to be lawful good, what is your point?
The Giant is on record as stating that all of the Order is Good except for Belkar. I can't find the quote right now, and he may have changed his mind, but until I find a statement that contradicts it, I'm sticking by that assumption.

What about escaping from just imprisonment? This is Belkar we're talking about.
Some people are incapable of recognizing that the Order was imprisoned justly.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

AngryDaikon

2006-01-22, 01:15 PM

I don't understand what the issue is with Belkar's actions that some people are having. It's roleplaying. Acting out things that you could never do in real life. I bet you don't get all upset when you're playing and you smash some poor creatures head in or cut off their limbs... then loot their corpses for trinkets.

What sort of characters do you Antu-Belkar people play out of interest?

Marller

2006-01-22, 01:32 PM

Someone said that what we most hate in the others are our flaws that we saw reflected in them. This seems to be the perfect example.
annoy, annoyance. You should actually read before you reply.

Beside for the same reason shouldn't be you hate Miko, too? For her own admission she have a stick up her ass
She's a fictional character. She can't write replies before she processed what the poster wrote.

Zantetsuken_Kokoro

2006-01-22, 01:42 PM

What about escaping from just imprisonment? This is Belkar we're talking about.

Two Words:

Minority Report.

Zantetsuken_Kokoro

2006-01-22, 01:44 PM

Also, Daikon, we are in no way disputing the ability or morality of Belkar's player to roleplay a chaotic evil psycho halfling. We are arguing solely within the context of the story itself.

Sebastian

2006-01-22, 01:46 PM

annoy, annoyance. You should actually read before you reply.

with a 26 pages thread who have time to read before reply. ;)

Sebastian

2006-01-22, 01:46 PM

The Giant is on record as stating that all of the Order is Good except for Belkar. I can't find the quote right now, and he may have changed his mind, but until I find a statement that contradicts it, I'm sticking by that assumption.

OK, so let's assume he/she is lawful good, but still I don't see your point.
Varsavius never claimed to be good, until this point I honestly believed her/him be lawful neutral, if he was LG or LN it would change nothing for her/his character, he/she don't gain advantages from being LG rather than LN.
The same can't be told about Miko, which must be Lawful Good to be a paladin and yet portrait one of the most effectively and best played lawful neutral behaviour that I've ever seen, she is the perfect samurai, the paragon of samuraihood ever.

But as a paladin she nothing but awful. And that the whole problem with her in my eyes. make her "fall from grace", replace her paladin level with fighter or samurai an dI'll be all pro-miko, but as for now; go Belkar.

And BTW if someone don't find this comic fun it is obviously because there is something seriously wrong with him. ;)

Some_Guy

2006-01-22, 02:12 PM

That's awesome.

D&D physics or no, it's not every day entertainment in any non-horror medium will include a main character getting set on fire.

Beyond that, i'm not sure what to say, other than:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y267/v_ralson/BelmarBob.gif

PhoeKun

2006-01-22, 02:15 PM

she is the perfect samurai, the paragon of samuraihood ever.

That right there is why I like Miko. Honorable people are too rare these days, even in stick figure comics, and I happen to find honor among the most important aspects of life. She also happens to do good things and be a paladin, but that's really besides the point.

Go, Miko!

The_Werebear

2006-01-22, 02:15 PM

Some people are incapable of recognizing that the Order was imprisoned justly.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

Except they weren't. They are being held in Azure City facilities for crimes that are religious in nature(Due to the fact that the gods of the south demanded their capture).

Also, going back to the Miko alignment thing. Note that back in 237 ( http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=237 , last panel second line) Roy suggests getting everyone out. He didn't have to. In fact, it would have been easier to just escape on his own. However, he did the right thing. Miko helped with this. Also, in 211( http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=211 ) she is the one who originally wanted to help for the sake of helping, not just out of something to do. Not saying the other's wouldn't have helped though.

So, my conclusion is that Miko is just as good as Roy, but far more Lawful than she is good, as well as being far more lawful than the party. Her personality and social skills are also abysmal. So, though she is a good person, she is a complete and total ass. She isn't even good in the celestial "anti-evil" way. Otherwise, she would have just left the people in the inn to chase the assasins.

I think the real reason that she is so disliked is that she is human and she is at odds with the party. We innately expect more out of paladins, and we also tend to forget that she is working towards different goals than the order.

Not that I still won't be rooting for Belkar.

Winged One

2006-01-22, 02:18 PM

Just because you have a different attitude than a LG person doesn't mean you're evil.
It is to your credit that you understand this. However, your basic stereotypical paladin, such as Miko, does not. Such people especially don't understand different types of LG.

kouhoutek

2006-01-22, 02:36 PM

Hawkeye

2006-01-22, 02:39 PM

I'm putting my two pence in, and if anyone has said this before now I can't be bothered to look through all 25 pages since my last post.

Why is a lot of you REALLY bothered and furious when a main character has been set on fire? We've seen this several times before, as in strip 168 when sam cast fireball on several members of the OOTS and strip 200 when V cast fireball on, by mistake, Roy.

Why didn't you cry out when this happened? Why now?

GAZ

2006-01-22, 02:44 PM

Lady_Orc

2006-01-22, 02:44 PM

Um, what is "Neither," Alex?

Just because you have a different attitude than a LG person doesn't mean you're evil.

There are at least five other options out there.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

So, the fact that I enjoyed seeing Miko burn does not mean that I'm a horrible person likely to commit acts of violence irl, and in need of serious therapy? And the fact that I loathe one LG character in a large cast of characters does not mean that I hate all that is pure and good and want to cover the world with eternal darkness?

Or were the five options something along the lines of 'Stupid, ignorant, callous, cruel, nasty'?

Lastarion

2006-01-22, 03:13 PM

Just read the comic. The best ever read! Compliments, Giant! And thanks for every new strip.

PhoeKun

2006-01-22, 03:21 PM

So, the fact that I enjoyed seeing Miko burn does not mean that I'm a horrible person likely to commit acts of violence irl, and in need of serious therapy? And the fact that I loathe one LG character in a large cast of characters does not mean that I hate all that is pure and good and want to cover the world with eternal darkness?

Or were the five options something along the lines of 'Stupid, ignorant, callous, cruel, nasty'?

The five possibilities he was referring to were NG, CG, CN, LN, and N. Unless I am mistaken, aaron feels that the vast majority (if not all) of the attacks on Miko are unfounded, and his personal rhetoric appears to be smiting with the english language rather than a katana and wakizashi.

I do not think anybody on these boards is implying that finding violence funny in any way shape or form makes you more likely to commit acts of violence "in real life". If you were already pre-disposed towards commiting acts of violence, you are more likely to find them funny in comic form, but that is a whole other can of worms, and frankly, it would still have nothing to do with the comic.

That said, whether someone finds Miko's plight funny still offers some small insight into their psyche. Finding a burning paladin funny doesn't make you evil, but it does mean that some part of you (be it concious or subconcious) empathizes with some non-Miko part of the situation. Maybe you like fire. Maybe you dislike Law. Maybe you believe people have the right to do what they feel is necessary to escape what they consider to be unjust imprisonment. It could be any number of things, but it doesn't mean you're evil, morally bankrupt, stupid, or ignorant.

So to the pro-Miko camp: the pro-Belkar camp is not a bunch of psycopathic mass-muderers.

To the pro-Belkar camp: the pro-Miko camp is not a bunch of self-righteous, overbearing, pompous jerks.

(On a side note, has anyone else noticed that I am incapable of making small posts?)

Tomada

2006-01-22, 03:23 PM

Really, I'm still reading the later posts to get up to date on whats going on in this thread, I'm in page 20...

I saw people complaining about fire 'cause someone they loved died in a fire or whatever.

I lost a very loved person due to poison. I saw the strip where Roy is poisoned and didn't started a war over it.

You may think poison don't even damage or make people suffer. You ARE WAY WAY WAY WRONG poison may deform people, make then purple and it ISN'T ANYTHING PRETTY. I couldn't even stare at here in the coffin.

Just think twice if you think you know everything in the world. And take things with ease...

Be in peace.

EDIT: I was up to date with the strips, but made a mistake, where strip was now is 'posts'

Marller

2006-01-22, 03:30 PM

with a 26 pages thread who have time to read before reply. ;)

Well, sorry then. ;)

Yahoo_Serious

2006-01-22, 03:37 PM

My conclusion: Giant really hit on something here... almost 400 replies to this thread (not to mention the upteen Miko vs Belkar threads), and still a day to go before the next OOTS...

Dorni

2006-01-22, 03:56 PM

Why is a lot of you REALLY bothered and furious when a main character has been set on fire? We've seen this several times before, as in strip 168 when sam cast fireball on several members of the OOTS and strip 200 when V cast fireball on, by mistake, Roy.

Why didn't you cry out when this happened? Why now?

People are stirred by this comic for 2 major reasons.

Firstly, this is not combat between a main charactor and a Villian. Like it or not, Miko has become an important enough charactor that she could arguably be a new PC. This is a fight between two important charactors. No matter who wins, the other loses, and people care about what happens to both of these charactors. There was no issue before because no one was attached to Samantha or the Ogre Cheif.

Secondly, this battle is a role reversal. The main charactor, Belkar, is an embodiment of Evil, while the opponent, Miko, is an embodiment of Good. People want to root for the 'good guy', but in this case, both charactors are 'good guys'. As a result, there is no clear person to root for.

In a larger sense, however, this battle is the cumulation of the debates that have been raging on the boards.

So, my conclusion is that Miko is just as good as Roy, but far more Lawful than she is good, as well as being far more lawful than the party. Her personality and social skills are also abysmal. So, though she is a good person, she is a complete and total ass. She isn't even good in the celestial "anti-evil" way. Otherwise, she would have just left the people in the inn to chase the assasins.

I argue that Miko is, in fact, FAR more good than Roy. Just hear me before making a judgement, it makes more sense when I change the wording. Miko is Good carried to Extremes, the point where it is no longer reconizable. A paladin, a crusader, fights for what is 'right'. She focuses her life on the pursuit of what is 'right'. But in focusing, as with a Telescope, she has lost view of the big picture. If she is right, are those that disagree with her wrong? To a person in extremes, they are. The cursader then becomes far less open-minded, beliveing only in themselves. People who simply have different points a view, in this crusader's mind, do not agree with her and therefore must be wrong. Any trait carried to extremes is the same way. Take any common 'good' trait, like forgiveness. Carried to extremes; a great paladin (instead of the OoTS) fights through Xycon's first dungeon, destroys his body, and gets ahold of his Phylocatory. Carrying Forgiveness to extremes, they decide not to destroy it and 'kill' Xycon. Are they actually doing good in the world when Xycon goes to his backup lair and gains control of the Hobgoblin Legions? Is the judge who sentances the litterer to 20 years in prision aptly embodying Justice? I don't think Ambition carried to extremes needs to be exemplified.

How does that relate to Miko? She is Good to the point of no longer being good. All of her actions so far make perfect sense when veiwed through the close-minded prisim of Extreme Good. I somewhat deviated from my thesis, but that is the reasoning for Miko being 'more' Good than Roy.

Oznstuff

2006-01-22, 03:58 PM

I am rooting (if that's even the correct spelling here) for Belkar in this fight, but that does not make me anti-Miko with capital letters and cosmic overtones. He is part of Oots and she is not, for me it's that simple. I did not find him setting her on fire to be humerous, but I thought his one liner to be absolutely hilarious. If this offends some of you, tough, deal with it. This is a fun comic, not the real world. Come Monday the Giant will have some other piece of genius laid out for us and we will have forgotten all about this "boo-hoo your mean because you said x, y, or z." I think the fact that Rich can write something that evokes this much emotion from so many people speaks volumes for his talent and skill. In our rush to defend our various cherished opinions lets not lose sight of the fact that we all love this strip!
Okay, I'm done being pompus now! ;D

Winged One

2006-01-22, 04:00 PM

People are stirred by this comic for 2 major reasons.

Firstly, this is not combat between a main charactor and a Villian. Like it or not, Miko has become an important enough charactor that she could arguably be a new PC. This is a fight between two important charactors. No matter who wins, the other loses, and people care about what happens to both of these charactors. There was no issue before because no one was attached to Samantha or the Ogre Cheif.

Secondly, this battle is a role reversal. The main charactor, Belkar, is an embodiment of Evil, while the opponent, Miko, is an embodiment of Good. People want to root for the 'good guy', but in this case, both charactors are 'good guys'. As a result, there is no clear person to root for.

In a larger sense, however, this battle is the cumulation of the debates that have been raging on the boards.

I argue that Miko is, in fact, FAR more good than Roy. Just hear me before making a judgement, it makes more sense when I change the wording. Miko is Good carried to Extremes, the point where it is no longer reconizable. A paladin, a crusader, fights for what is 'right'. She focuses her life on the pursuit of what is 'right'. But in focusing, as with a Telescope, she has lost view of the big picture. If she is right, are those that disagree with her wrong? To a person in extremes, they are. The cursader then becomes far less open-minded, beliveing only in themselves. People who simply have different points a view, in this crusader's mind, do not agree with her and therefore must be wrong. Any trait carried to extremes is the same way. Take any common 'good' trait, like forgiveness. Carried to extremes; a great paladin (instead of the OoTS) fights through Xycon's first dungeon, destroys his body, and gets ahold of his Phylocatory. Carrying Forgiveness to extremes, they decide not to destroy it and 'kill' Xycon. Are they actually doing good in the world when Xycon goes to his backup lair and gains control of the Hobgoblin Legions? Is the judge who sentances the litterer to 20 years in prision aptly embodying Justice? I don't think Ambition carried to extremes needs to be exemplified.

How does that relate to Miko? She is Good to the point of no longer being good. All of her actions so far make perfect sense when veiwed through the close-minded prisim of Extreme Good. I somewhat deviated from my thesis, but that is the reasoning for Miko being 'more' Good than Roy.
You hit the nail right on the head there. That's exactly how I view Miko.

U2QueenBee

2006-01-22, 04:04 PM

Is it just me, or is all this weeping and gnashing of teeth over burning someone a little too much?

I mean, V has fried dozens of creatures, with magical, 10d6 damage fire. I don't recall any of the outrage or "fire gives me nightmares" sob stories that this has generated.

Seem a bit disingenuous to complain about Belkar's measily 1d6 stuff.

Unless you have some sort of crush on whom he is using it against...

I don't have a crush on Miko (I'm a straight chick, thanks) but as I said in my earlier thread, it feels different when it's a character you've gotten to know. It may not necessarily be different, or make sense, but it can feel that way, which I think is what people are picking up on.

Also as someone else already said, a magical fireball is hard to relate to because it's unreal. Someone actually burning in a mundane fire is much easier to relate to, particularly for people with a fire-related tragedy in their past. I don't think it's weak or hypocritical of them to be uncomfortable.

Albion

2006-01-22, 04:05 PM

I started reading OOTS when there were very maybe 230 comics(just some sort of estimation), this one made me join up to the forums. Truly one of the coolest ones yet, somehow. ;D Made me go "Yeah, oh YEAH!" which is almost as nice as laughing.

As for all the more detailed and complicated discussion that this topic has by now evolved into, I haven't got much to add, so just ignore me, mighty experts. 8) Thanks.

Edit: Oh yeah, ONE addition though: no, I don't think the burning of Miko was any worse than the stick comics we're used to. It's a world of horrible violence in the fantasy gaming world, when you think about it. If you like that sort of thing. Yawn.

Devoured_Dude

2006-01-22, 04:28 PM

Since everyone else is, let me put my two cents in:Since this is a comic based on a role playing game, Belkar gets more sympathy that Miko because:

1. Belkar is funnier.
2. Miko is seen as the instrument of the DM's "railroad plot"

Alignments, being constructs of the game, apply as much to real-life as being a halfling or casting spells.

If I were playing in the game on which OOTS is based, I'd be cheering for Belkar too. Haley lost a ton of cash since Miko showed up. Roy stil hasn't got his sword remade. Durkon's loyalties have been put into question. V has been rudely treated and seen no benefit. All because of Miko and the DM's railroad plot. Belkar is actively throwing a wrench into the works, why shouldn't we cheer him on?

aaronbourque

2006-01-22, 04:34 PM

They are being held in Azure City facilities for crimes that are religious in nature(Due to the fact that the gods of the south demanded their capture).
And?

The unjust thing about that is . . . ?

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

aaronbourque

2006-01-22, 04:45 PM

Adeptus

2006-01-22, 04:56 PM

If this were true, then Miko would treat all of the Order she knows aren't Evil the way she treats Durkon, or she'd treat Durkon as she treats the rest of the Order.

Once more, a misconception about Miko is shown to be completely factually incorrect.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

Aaron... ease up a bit.

Your comments are starting to be positively self righteous and preachy... While such is amusing in a certain brilliantly written paladin character, it's pretty tiresome in a real person.

Try to be a little less confrontational please.

Winged One

2006-01-22, 05:00 PM

If this were true, then Miko would treat all of the Order she knows aren't Evil the way she treats Durkon, or she'd treat Durkon as she treats the rest of the Order.

Once more, a misconception about Miko is shown to be completely factually incorrect.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

You'll note that she calls every Good character who has ever expressed disagreement with her "dishonorable" with the same sort of body language and context she would use to say "evil". You'll also note that Durkon has not, in her presence, grown enough of a spine to disagree with her verbally.

Sylvius

2006-01-22, 05:03 PM

He hates her and torments her because she's good.

No. He hates and torments her because she's not Belkar.

Dorni

2006-01-22, 05:05 PM

It is to your credit that you understand this. However, your basic stereotypical paladin, such as Miko, does not. Such people especially don't understand different types of LG.
If this were true, then Miko would treat all of the Order she knows aren't Evil the way she treats Durkon, or she'd treat Durkon as she treats the rest of the Order.

Once more, a misconception about Miko is shown to be completely factually incorrect.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

Actually, if Miko did understand that disagreeing with her does not make them wrong, then she would treat everyone like she does Durkon. She treats Durkon the way she does because Durkon has agreed with her course of actions.

theKOT

2006-01-22, 05:11 PM

I started reading OOTS when there were very maybe 230 comics(just some sort of estimation), this one made me join up to the forums. Truly one of the coolest ones yet, somehow. ;D Made me go "Yeah, oh YEAH!" which is almost as nice as laughing.

As for all the more detailed and complicated discussion that this topic has by now evolved into, I haven't got much to add, so just ignore me, mighty experts. 8) Thanks.
I 4m teh mighty expert! ph34r me n00b! nah... I know how that feels though, you read the page long posts and you're thinking "Nobody will give a care to what I have to say." Of course, they probably won't, ewspecially if you're not particularly insightful like me ;), but it's fun anyways

afflictedkender

2006-01-22, 05:24 PM

I'm not so sure "just" means very much in this particular discussion. It seems to me that in a semi-medieval era (rocket skates?!?) such as the one portrayed by OotS, the rulers make the decisions as to what is just/right. They have the power to do something, QED, it is right.

And I'd say a Belkar/Miko spinoff has potential ;-)

nuance

2006-01-22, 05:39 PM

The unjust thing about that is . . . ?

That "They are being held in Azure City facilities for crimes that are religious in nature" Hey! learn to read.

These are not deities followed by any member of the party. Their influence appears to be limited as in "gods of the south". I see no reason why anyone in the order should cow tow to these provincial backwater nobodies or regard them as having any authority or right to judge them.

nuance

2006-01-22, 05:43 PM

If this were true, then Miko would treat all of the Order she knows aren't Evil the way she treats Durkon, or she'd treat Durkon as she treats the rest of the Order.

Once more, a misconception about Miko is shown to be completely factually incorrect.

We have no evidence that Miko thinks anyone in the party apart from Durkon is LG. All she knows about them is that they don't show up on her evilometer.

I see no misconception here. Apart from yours obviously.

Musrum

2006-01-22, 05:54 PM

Not for Belkar. He's CE and loves it. His personal demons are his best friends. They didn't torture him in that hole, they just encouraged him.

Being CE does not make you immune to torture.

Torturing is an evil act, even if the victim is Evil.

Therefore, if we applied our modern ethics wrt torture, to Miko's situation, she would have Fallen as soon as she ordered Mr Bitterleaf into "The Hole".

Zantetsuken_Kokoro

2006-01-22, 06:05 PM

That "They are being held in Azure City facilities for crimes that are religious in nature" Hey! learn to read.

These are not deities followed by any member of the party. Their influence appears to be limited as in "gods of the south". I see no reason why anyone in the order should cow tow to these provincial backwater nobodies or regard them as having any authority or right to judge them.

Careful dude, such talk will make people think you're an anarchist! :P

A very apt nickname, btw. ;)

Falkus

2006-01-22, 06:06 PM

Two Words:

Minority Report.

What's a Tom Cruise movie got to do with anything? Are you denying that Belkar is a murderous psycopath?

Therefore, if we applied our modern ethics wrt torture, to Miko's situation, she would have Fallen as soon as she ordered Mr Bitterleaf into "The Hole".

Solitary confinement is torture?

Musrum

2006-01-22, 06:16 PM

Solitary confinement is torture?

Yes.

PhoeKun

2006-01-22, 06:20 PM

Wait... what?

Solitary confinement = torture? I'll need to hear some explanation for that.

Caledonian

2006-01-22, 06:22 PM

Zantetsuken_Kokoro

2006-01-22, 06:35 PM

What's a Tom Cruise movie got to do with anything? Are you denying that Belkar is a murderous psycopath?

My point is that it's not right to incarcerate people for things they have not done yet. That said, I'd probably pwn Belkar anyway, if it were in my hands to do so.

kerberos

2006-01-22, 06:39 PM

Wait... what?

Solitary confinement = torture? I'll need to hear some explanation for that.
Well being in solitary confinement for extended periods of time, can give you a varierty of interesting mental disorders, and would clearly qualify as torture. shorter periods of solitary confinement on the other hand, is of course perfectly harmless. Given the short time that apparently passed between Belkars arrival and the trial, I'd say this falls far short of torture. Putting him in solitary confinement was petty an unpaladinish, but hardly torture.

Musrum

2006-01-22, 06:50 PM

Well it does have the tendency to make those who endure it long enough to go mad... it's a more subtle and refined psychological technique that what we normally consider 'torture', but I'd have to agree that if sustained long enough, it falls within that category.I remember visiting Port Arthur in Tasmania, a former penal colony for the hard core convicts sent to Australia. They had the Separate Prison for prisoners who were being punished with the "Silent System" which was considered a progressive method at the time. Just standing in these cells for a few minutes was more than enough.

Close by, they built the Asylum becuse they all went mad.

Belkar hadn't been incarcerated anywhere near long enough for it to count. It would just be mildly unpleasant.Well that is possiblly correct. However, we don't really know how long it was. Miko herself would not have know how long it would take to start the trial. We don't know if halflings are more susceptible to this form of torture (I would imagine the 2nd ED halflings might be).

It would be hard to argue that there has been no negative psycolgical impact to the victim given the events that followed.

Musrum

2006-01-22, 06:58 PM

Well being in solitary confinement for extended periods of time, can give you a varierty of interesting mental disorders, and would clearly qualify as torture. shorter periods of solitary confinement on the other hand, is of course perfectly harmless. Given the short time that apparently passed between Belkars arrival and the trial, I'd say this falls far short of torture. Putting him in solitary confinement was petty an unpaladinish, but hardly torture.

So, this is an interesting question then. Clearly being in solitary confinement for 4 hours is not torture, but 4 weeks is. So when Miko orders him into the Hole initially, she is not commiting an Evil act, but sometime in the next 4 weeks, it will become torture. So when does she Fall? At the start? At some arbitrary point in time? When her victim starts crying? When he finally snaps?

kerberos

2006-01-22, 06:59 PM

I remember visiting Port Arthur in Tasmania, a former
Well that is possiblly correct. However, we don't really know how long it was.
if you look at thye conversation between Belkar and the gaurd and between the rest of the orders members it's fairly clear they arrived very recently.

Miko herself would not have know how long it would take to start the trial.
She might have.

It would be hard to argue that there has been no negative psycolgical impact to the victim given the events that followed.

Why? Belkar was a murdorous psychotic before he was subjected to solitary confinement, he's still a murderous psychotic. No change there.

kerberos

2006-01-22, 07:07 PM

So, this is an interesting question then. Clearly being in solitary confinement for 4 hours is not torture, but 4 weeks is. So when Miko orders him into the Hole initially, she is not commiting an Evil act, but sometime in the next 4 weeks, it will become torture. So when does she Fall? At the start? At some arbitrary point in time? When her victim starts crying? When he finally snaps?

Well if she ordered him into the hole fully intending to keep him there for a long time, then that's an evil act right there. If she doesn't plan on keeping him for a long time, but the trial gets delayed, then it becomes evil when it should be clear to her that he will be kept there for a long time and she allows him to be kept there.

Musrum

2006-01-22, 07:18 PM

if you look at thye conversation between Belkar and the gaurd and between the rest of the orders members it's fairly clear they arrived very recently.
You're right.

Why? Belkar was a murdorous psychotic before he was subjected to solitary confinement, he's still a murderous psychotic. No change there.

There are plenty of posts in this thread about Belkar crossing the line etc, so without going into deltails I will submit that Belkar's behaviour is different.

Winged One

2006-01-22, 07:21 PM

Belkar was a murdorous psychotic before he was subjected to solitary confinement, he's still a murderous psychotic. No change there.

Before, he was just a murdering violent psycopath. Now, he's a murderous, violent, sadistic psycopath. Before, he seemed to just enjoy killing, but now, he's torturing Miko, taunting her, and, in general, putting far more effort into making her suffer rather than merely killing her.

Adeptus

2006-01-22, 07:32 PM

I (for my part) think you guys are still reading this wrong.

Belkar is not "being sadistic and torturing Miko". He is being very clever and trying to win against an opponent much stronger than he is.

He's taunting the paladin to get her angry, and setting traps.

I'm amazed at you people really. The sake-and-lit-match is no more sadistic and cruel than any other trap he could have set. Belkar is a ranger (a hunter) and setting traps is one of his ways of fighting.

Think abou it. Would it make you feel better if it was a standard issue acid trap, or so?

So Belkar is a little smug when his plan goes off. If he was our character in a similar situation, we would be pretty smug too. Anyway, it's just round 1 for now.

Winged One

2006-01-22, 07:53 PM

Musrum

2006-01-22, 08:03 PM

Well if she ordered him into the hole fully intending to keep him there for a long time, then that's an evil act right there. If she doesn't plan on keeping him for a long time, but the trial gets delayed, then it becomes evil when it should be clear to her that he will be kept there for a long time and she allows him to be kept there.

But "a long time" is a slippery fish. It is not clear when the pshycological damage caused by solitary confinement becomes significant enough to be considered torture. This fuzzy line would become even more blured with the racial differences.

Also it is fairly clear that Miko's motivation for putting Belkar into "The Hole" is petty payback.

If she was a PC, her player should have been given a quiet word from the DM.

totalnerduk

2006-01-22, 08:36 PM

I love it. Belkar unleashed!

I really hope the Giant drags this fight out for a few strips... I want to see more of Belkar's hilariously evil badassery.

Tawkis

2006-01-22, 08:48 PM

Really really great one today.

Off-topic: For any fellow Canadians here, remember to vote tomorrow.

Did I mention great comic.

Sir_Banjo

2006-01-22, 09:13 PM

Yeah!! Burn baby, burn!!

Personnally when I first saw Belkar cover Miko in sake, I thought he was going frame her or set her up as a rummy. The lighted match was much better though, as was the "it's as true now as it was then..." line.

Eva_of_Sirrion

2006-01-22, 09:56 PM

I really hope the Giant drags this fight out for a few strips...

It'll be an epic battle for the ages, recounted by bards for years to come in the OotS-verse (maybe even Elan, if A. He and the OotS beat the rap and B. if he can keep all the details straight in that good-fer nothin' head of his). ;D

To be honest, I'll probably be sad if either of them meets their end here. Like 'em or not, Miko and Belkar are compelling characters, as the length and breadth of emotions shown here can attest.

evileeyore

2006-01-22, 10:02 PM

Except they weren't. They are being held in Azure City facilities for crimes that are religious in nature(Due to the fact that the gods of the south demanded their capture).
What makes being imprison for breaking Divine Law unjust adverse to breaking Temporal Law?

What make s Divine Law so much less worthy of respect and obeyance in comparison?

Or are you, as I suspect, grasping at strawmen?

theKOT

2006-01-22, 10:02 PM

But "a long time" is a slippery fish. It is not clear when the pshycological damage caused by solitary confinement becomes significant enough to be considered torture. This fuzzy line would become even more blured with the racial differences.

Also it is fairly clear that Miko's motivation for putting Belkar into "The Hole" is petty payback.

If she was a PC, her player should have been given a quiet word from the DM.

Sigh. No. The point was to put him somehwhere away from durkon and his snoring. Miko's letter of the law attitude, and the fact that we don't know if there was any cell block other than the one containing durkon, make it possible that she actually thought he would perfer the hole to being near durkon. Sarcasm and exagerration usually go undetected by Miko.

evileeyore

2006-01-22, 10:10 PM

On torture and solitary confinement:

There is no "magic time" when solitary ceases to be punishment and instead becomes torment.

It is a different length for each individual, it must be weighed accordingly. Also, in my opinion, it may also be considered punishment and not "torture".

For some being alone is a horrible experience. For others it is a preffered state. The prisoner must be monitored and evaluated to determine what the case may be.

However in Belkar's case, it clearly was not meant to be long, he had stated a "preference for being alone", and Miko was using her authority to enact some punishment on the Evil creature in her power.

All very righteous. All very proper. Belkar was not mistreated, he was fed the same as all other prisoners, he was simply placed apart from his comrades.

Alchemistmerlin

2006-01-22, 10:18 PM

Burn baby, Burn.

I hope she dies, I hope she dies So bad.

VariaVespasa

2006-01-22, 10:29 PM

What makes being imprison for breaking Divine Law unjust adverse to breaking Temporal Law?

What make s Divine Law so much less worthy of respect and obeyance in comparison?

Or are you, as I suspect, grasping at strawmen?

There are multiple gods and pantheons out there in the OOTS world therefore there is more than one "divine law", and the law of any particular set of deities, such as the 12 gods of the south, is no more all-encompassing than the law of any one country. And as a matter of custom it is unjust for one authority to attempt to apply its law outside its territory or worse, in the territory of another authority. Indeed, attempting such in the territory of another authority is causus belli. Now, where the gate was, and where the OOTS were when they were accosted by Miko remains unresolved, and so whether or not this particular divine law was applicable and just remains uncertain, but it is NOT uncertain in the least that there ARE areas in the OOTS world where the 12 gods law does not extend, and in those places attempting to apply it anyway would be unjust. Given Roys responses to Miko at various times it seems quite likely (but not certain) that both the gate and the OOTS were out of the 12 gods territory at the time. There has been no indication that they were in anyone elses territory either, so it seems most likely they were in unclaimed territory. The fact that they may have been outside the 12 gods territory is the basis for the claims that it was an unjust arrest. Time and future strips will (hopefully) tell where they actually were, and how just or unjust their arrest was, but for now its an open question.

*Hugs*
Varia

The_Werebear

2006-01-22, 10:39 PM

What makes being imprison for breaking Divine Law unjust adverse to breaking Temporal Law?

What make s Divine Law so much less worthy of respect and obeyance in comparison?

Or are you, as I suspect, grasping at strawmen?

Not yet, my internet adversary, not yet.

Shojo very clearly stated that they are being arrested on religious matters under his authority from the gods of the south, not on the fact that he is the leader of secular Azure City. Since he has them in Azure City facilities, he is using secular powers on a divine case. Therefore, their imprisonment in unjust.

Their arrest on the other hand...

Kingrat

2006-01-22, 10:42 PM

What a comic! The last couple of entries were nothing fanstastic, but this...this is what the makes this gem stand out!

Belkar's excellent, finally using his brains when it matters most, Hiding, Move Silenty, Make Traps, Stealth Attacks! superb! This is how the paladdin goes down!

Hooray for Belkar (at least he survived this long to inflict some damage!)

Lyc

2006-01-22, 10:42 PM

What make s Divine Law so much less worthy of respect and obeyance in comparison?
Most likely that "Divine law" changes at on a whim and often simplly boils down to "Because I said so". Temporal laws are laws of a society and are written down thus specifying what constitues a violation and usually a range of suitable punishments. Also temporal laws have the potential to be challanged or changed as they are man made constructs.

"Divine law" is generally not written down and even if it is it is so vague as to mean absolutley anything - after being 'properly interpreted by relevant religious authorities'. And of course it can never be challanged as its 'handed down from the gods' by his/her chosen represtentatives, even if said representatives are raving nutjobs..

Sure in the D&D universe priests can jump on the hotline to the god in question, but the spells which allow such communication come back as yes/no answers or so vague as to be useless. Just take any example from the real world of people claiming 'divine right'. Llook at the twisting and turning that a simple 'divine law' such as 'Thou shalt not kill' gets put though to justify a paticuliar course of action.

As for a possible arguement of the 'divine law' being proven by having a LG outisder present is meaningless. A mid level wizard summons outsiders as a party tricks and get doesnt claim any divine rights.

In the end 'divine law' boils down to 'I have lots of people with pointy metal objects who agree with me, so whatcha going to do about it?'.

rosebud

2006-01-22, 10:43 PM

Um, there's now been (not counting this post) 442 posts in this thread. For *one* strip.

For comparison, the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1073635653 ) for the first six months of OOTS that covered the first 55 or so strips had 441 postings.

I shudder to think what something more grave would generate. :o (And what it will do to world productivity and the fabric of the universe.)

Musrum

2006-01-22, 10:50 PM

On torture and solitary confinement:

There is no "magic time" when solitary ceases to be punishment and instead becomes torment.
I agree.

It is a different length for each individual, it must be weighed accordingly.
How? Wait until they are just a little bit mad?

Also, in my opinion, it may also be considered punishment and not "torture".
Or both.

For some being alone is a horrible experience. For others it is a preffered state.
And yet, without exception, regardless of temperament, they ALL go mad.

The prisoner must be monitored and evaluated to determine what the case may be.

Tricky to do. Once you notice they are mad, the damage is done. Early signs of mental breakdown will be different for each victim.

However in Belkar's case, it clearly was not meant to be long, he had stated a "preference for being alone", and Miko was using her authority to enact some punishment on the Evil creature in her power.

All very righteous. All very proper. Belkar was not mistreated, he was fed the same as all other prisoners, he was simply placed apart from his comrades.

Or: abusing her authority.

Belkar was facing the same charges as the rest of the team and was due to be judged along with them. As such, the punishment Miko was giving is special and premature.

In addition, in making these special arrangements, she failed to exercise due diligence in ensuring that the prisoner was sufficiently secured.

It is clear that her "punishment" was sufficient to stimulate a psychotic episode in the victim.

Knight

2006-01-22, 10:53 PM

Even though it'll hurt later in the trial, Belkar rules!

I really enjoyed this strip, more so than usual.

rosebud

2006-01-22, 10:54 PM

(On a side note, has anyone else noticed that I am incapable of making small posts?)No.

PhoeKun

2006-01-22, 11:00 PM

On the subject of gods and divine authority:

There is no such thing as 'jurisdiction' to gods, especially when they act as a pantheon. Even if there are multiple pantheons, divine authority is not limited to a finite area on the material plane. Just because you don't worship a God doesn't mean he can't bring his divine wrath down on your village.

On the flip side, think about it from the perspective of the Saphire Guard. You're a Paladin, and you know you get your powers and holy mission from the 12 Gods of the South. The Gods later point out that somebody in a foreign land is subverting their divine agenda, and charge you with bringing them back to Azure City for trial. Do you get a Cleric to cast Commune and say, "Gee, I'm sorry, but those people live in a land where you aren't worshipped, so it wouldn't be right to do that", or would you call for your warhorse and march out?

On the subject of Belkar's imprisonment:

I'm beginnning to think that the concept of solitary confinement is a moot point. Is it really solitary confinement when an overly talkative guard shows up at regular intervals to give you delicious and nourishing gruel?

On the subject of Belkar's actions in the fight:

Belkar isn't being particularly malicious or cruel here. He's being smart, and using the tools he has at his disposal. If your tools involve the ability to ambush and set traps, it would be stupid not to. If Belkar were capable of summoning demons or the undead to do his bidding, I would be berating him for incompetence if he didn't press that advantage here. Good and Evil speak more to intent and behavior in the aftermath. In a fight to the death, its about winning, and winning is about using every resource you have at your disposal (which, ironically, tend to be different depending on whether you are good or evil).

Midnight Son

2006-01-22, 11:07 PM

Looking forward to round two in the clash of alignments.

Does anyone remember when it took us half a month to get to 50 pages in these threads?

Scion_of_the_Light

2006-01-22, 11:12 PM

Not yet, my internet adversary, not yet.

Shojo very clearly stated that they are being arrested on religious matters under his authority from the gods of the south, not on the fact that he is the leader of secular Azure City. Since he has them in Azure City facilities, he is using secular powers on a divine case. Therefore, their imprisonment in unjust.

Their arrest on the other hand...

Exactly how is Shojo violating his secular powers? I mean, he sent a paladin after them. He is perfectly keeping in line with the seperation of his authority.

Lyc

2006-01-22, 11:14 PM

Do you get a Cleric to cast Commune and say, "Gee, I'm sorry, but those people live in a land where you aren't worshipped, so it wouldn't be right to do that", or would you call for your warhorse and march out?
And then when you do march out and prepare to smite the group in question saying they are evil and their death has been sanctioned by the gods, does the group stand back and go "Okay, we never heard of you, or your order, or your gods, and you make wild claims we're evil so we'll just stand here while you attack us because you claim divine right?". Or do the group unleash a can a whoop ass on the weirdo lunatic who attacks them (unless of course the paladin has the dominate DM power).

As for areas of juridistiction, they only extend as far as the minions can enforce. Send a paladin/priest into the vault of the drow to punish a matron mother and he'll find his "divine right which knows no boundaries" is rather small indeed.

Musrum

2006-01-22, 11:16 PM

On the subject of Belkar's imprisonment:

I'm beginnning to think that the concept of solitary confinement is a moot point. Is it really solitary confinement when an overly talkative guard shows up at regular intervals to give you delicious and nourishing gruel?

Not normally. But then we do know that the point at which a human breaks under this torture is variable. We don't know much about Halfling psychology but it is possible that they are extra sensitive to this form of torture. And we do know that Belkar suffered a psychotic episode…

Chaining a prisoner in 5 feet of sewage is humiliating for a Human, but deadly for a Dwarf.

Scion_of_the_Light

2006-01-22, 11:16 PM

Most likely that "Divine law" changes at on a whim and often simplly boils down to "Because I said so". Temporal laws are laws of a society and are written down thus specifying what constitues a violation and usually a range of suitable punishments. Also temporal laws have the potential to be challanged or changed as they are man made constructs.

"Divine law" is generally not written down and even if it is it is so vague as to mean absolutley anything - after being 'properly interpreted by relevant religious authorities'. And of course it can never be challanged as its 'handed down from the gods' by his/her chosen represtentatives, even if said representatives are raving nutjobs..

Sure in the D&D universe priests can jump on the hotline to the god in question, but the spells which allow such communication come back as yes/no answers or so vague as to be useless. Just take any example from the real world of people claiming 'divine right'. Llook at the twisting and turning that a simple 'divine law' such as 'Thou shalt not kill' gets put though to justify a paticuliar course of action.

As for a possible arguement of the 'divine law' being proven by having a LG outisder present is meaningless. A mid level wizard summons outsiders as a party tricks and get doesnt claim any divine rights.

In the end 'divine law' boils down to 'I have lots of people with pointy metal objects who agree with me, so whatcha going to do about it?'.

No, not really. It's more like, "I'm a god. I've got plans for the world. If I'm a good god (like the 12 gods of the south appear to be), then my plans will mean goodness and happiness for you. If I'm evil, then you get to have less pain at your ultimate death. Whee!"

Remember, we cannot look at this as a post-enlightenment sort of world. In our world, laws are determined by rational, reasoned thought. Thought based on the workings of Locke, Rousseau, etc. In the OotS world, I highly doubt a enlightenment has occured. The secular law is likely far more influenced by religion.

Scion_of_the_Light

2006-01-22, 11:20 PM

And then when you do march out and prepare to smite the group in question saying they are evil and their death has been sanctioned by the gods, does the group stand back and go "Okay, we never heard of you, or your order, or your gods, and you make wild claims we're evil so we'll just stand here while you attack us because you claim divine right?". Or do the group unleash a can a whoop ass on the weirdo lunatic who attacks them (unless of course the paladin has the dominate DM power).

As for areas of juridistiction, they only extend as far as the minions can enforce. Send a paladin/priest into the vault of the drow to punish a matron mother and he'll find his "divine right which knows no boundaries" is rather small indeed.

Not really. A god's reach is effectily infinite. They know no bounds. They are deities, dammit! Their mortal servants don't count a whit, they are not the deity. The servants jurisdiction might be limited, but the deities is not. I've said it before in other threads, just because a deity is not worshipped in a certain region dosn't mean it cannot be worshipped there.

Musrum

2006-01-22, 11:29 PM

Remember, we cannot look at this as a post-enlightenment sort of world. In our world, laws are determined by rational, reasoned thought. Thought based on the workings of Locke, Rousseau, etc. In the OotS world, I highly doubt a enlightenment has occured. The secular law is likely far more influenced by religion.

Actually there are a few ethical anachronisms that have leaked through the 4th wall into D&D. There is a greater sexual equality than you would expect in a pseudo-medieval world. There is a general absence of intra-Race racism (which has a good explanation).

The_Werebear

2006-01-22, 11:30 PM

Exactly how is Shojo violating his secular powers? I mean, he sent a paladin after them. He is perfectly keeping in line with the seperation of his authority.

He is using his secular powers to aid is divine cause.

Lyc

2006-01-22, 11:39 PM

Not really. A god's reach is effectily infinite. They know no bounds. They are deities, dammit!

Or greater gods, or lesser gods, or demi-gods or anthything else in the whole mess which passes for 'gods' in D&D. And in many cases they certainly do have restrictions on their powers and range. Ie: A god with a portfolio over water, wont have much say over another with a portfolio of air.

Their mortal servants don't count a whit, they are not the deity. The servants jurisdiction might be limited, but the deities is not. I've said it before in other threads, just because a deity is not worshipped in a certain region dosn't mean it cannot be worshipped there.

True, there is nothinh saying they _can't_ be worshipped/followed in a specific area, however their ability to _enforce_ their version of 'divine law' in that area will be severly crimped, which was the point I was trying to make. Sure you could have Thor on a day trip through Hel's domain, but if he tries enforcing his rule on her area she will have something to say about it and so would her followers. If I claimed that it is divine law for you to pay me $10,000, you would laugh, and I could do nothing about it, because I dont have the power to enforce it. Ditto with D&D gods. (unless of course they make a manisfestation, which opens a whole new can of worms).

But you raised a thought in my mind - the northern Gods in the OoTS-verse are based on the Norse deities. These dieties (Aesir and Vanir) were ruled by the tapestry of fate weaved by the Norns. So their 'divine laws' were subservient to the tapestry...hmm though this is probably getting a bit metaphysical for a comic strip....

PhoeKun

2006-01-22, 11:40 PM

And then when you do march out and prepare to smite the group in question saying they are evil and their death has been sanctioned by the gods, does the group stand back and go "Okay, we never heard of you, or your order, or your gods, and you make wild claims we're evil so we'll just stand here while you attack us because you claim divine right?". Or do the group unleash a can a whoop ass on the weirdo lunatic who attacks them (unless of course the paladin has the dominate DM power).

As for areas of juridistiction, they only extend as far as the minions can enforce. Send a paladin/priest into the vault of the drow to punish a matron mother and he'll find his "divine right which knows no boundaries" is rather small indeed.

Well, as a Paladin, one would assume the very same deities who sent you on this most holy quest would also posess the foresight to send a sufficient force out to accomplish their divine will.

So when that drow vault finds itself being raided by a high-level, well-trained group of holy warriors brandishing Holy Avengers and summoning couatls, they briefly contemplate why Llolth would abandon them befor being impaled on hard steel.

Or at the vary least, the gods would send the paladin with the "charm DM" feature.

EDIT: grammar issue.

Lyc

2006-01-23, 12:07 AM

So when that drow vault finds itself being raided by a high-level, well-trained group of holy warriors brandishing Holy Avengers and summoning couatls, they briefly contemplate why Llolth would abandon them befor being impaled on hard steel.
*blinks*

Somone who spelt the Queen of Spiders name correctly?! No...it cannot be....world crashing down...I'm melting!.... Aieeeee :o

theKOT

2006-01-23, 12:20 AM

Not normally. But then we do know that the point at which a human breaks under this torture is variable. We don't know much about Halfling psychology but it is possible that they are extra sensitive to this form of torture. And we do know that Belkar suffered a psychotic episode…

Chaining a prisoner in 5 feet of sewage is humiliating for a Human, but deadly for a Dwarf.

Why do you think belkar was acting any different than normal? His hobbies include harvesting kidneys and selling young women into slavery. He pretty much is, well, Evil!

evileeyore

2006-01-23, 12:20 AM

There are multiple gods and pantheons out there in the OOTS world therefore there is more than one "divine law", and the law of any particular set of deities, such as the 12 gods of the south, is no more all-encompassing than the law of any one country.

"...and as the gods have no limits on their jurisdiction, neither do we."

You might want to rethink your stance.

Shojo very clearly stated that they are being arrested on religious matters under his authority from the gods of the south, not on the fact that he is the leader of secular Azure City. Since he has them in Azure City facilities, he is using secular powers on a divine case. Therefore, their imprisonment in unjust.

He is using his secular powers to aid is divine cause.You will know no doubt show us where he doing so, when he has sent Sapphire Guards to capture them, used Sapphire Guards to imprison them, clerics of the Sapphire Guards to summon Divine Intervention, and is trying them under Divine Law.

You too might want to join Variavaespasa in rethinking some things.

Most likely that "Divine law" changes at on a whim and often simplly boils down to "Because I said so". Temporal laws are laws of a society and are written down thus specifying what constitues a violation and usually a range of suitable punishments. Also temporal laws have the potential to be challanged or changed as they are man made constructs.
Point One - Divine law changes much less rapidly than Temporal. Look at the History of the Earth if you don't believe me.

Point Two - Bible, Koran, Tanakh, etc...

Point Three - I can't answer this. Really, Divine Law is supposed to be beyond Man's ability to alter but it ain't. At least not on Earth. On the world of the OotS I suspect this is vastly different.

- Not a religion bash - I can only snicker with child like glee at the Divine Wrath that would have likely struck a "King James" in a fantasy world...

Or: abusing her authority.I disagree. It is well within her authority to decide he is more dangerous and is deserving of a higher degree of security. Or that he is corrupt and deserving of some punishment until such a time as she turns him over to another authority.

I ask these questions: Was Belkar treated any worse than the other OotS? No. Was he subjected to harsher circumstances? No.

In addition, in making these special arrangements, she failed to exercise due diligence in ensuring that the prisoner was sufficiently eocured.Perhaps. However she may have trusted the gaoler to be competent.

It is clear that her "punishment" was sufficient to stimulate a psychotic episode in the victim.Firstly it is clear Belkar needs no provocation. He is a sociopath. Second, he is not a victim. Victims are what Belkar is surrounded by.

theKOT

2006-01-23, 12:39 AM

Firstly it is clear Belkar needs no provocation. He is a sociopath. Second, he is not a victim. Victims are what Belkar is surrounded by.

Seconded! Someone else is always to blame. Justifying stuff is just that easy!
On a different subject here, it seems like the same people end up debating with each other no matter what the topic. Differing fundamental ideas I guess.

ref

2006-01-23, 12:52 AM

Does anyone remember when it took us half a month to get to 50 pages in these threads?

Yep, that wasn't too long ago.

Also, to the guy that has "Rules violation! Rules violation I say!": Don't worry, the ref is here to listen to you ;D

Ob comment on the fight: Go miko!

Tharr

2006-01-23, 01:08 AM

Go Belkar kill her now.

Hey ref bad call just like TD play for the Carolina.

Two magic flying bird for Miko the big wanker.

Musrum

2006-01-23, 01:49 AM

I disagree. It is well within her authority to decide he is more dangerous and is deserving of a higher degree of security. Or that he is corrupt and deserving of some punishment until such a time as she turns him over to another authority.

It would be interesting to hear her justification for why Belkar was particularly dangerous, and how the special arrangement offered any extra security. Evidence would suggest that there was no extra security with this arrangement. But then again, I guess there was. Belkar had to overpower and kill a guard, whereas the rest of the gang could have just walked out of an unlocked cell...

Extra-judicial punishments for a prisoner awaiting trial are illegal in the real world. How things work in the Azure City is anyone's guess.

I ask these questions: Was Belkar treated any worse than the other OotS? No.
Yes. No healing.

Was he subjected to harsher circumstances? No.
Yes. No light. No air. No space. No companionship.

Firstly it is clear Belkar needs no provocation. He is a sociopath.
Perhaps. In which case he needs a Heal spell, not torture.

Second, he is not a victim.
It is entirely possible to be a victim regardless of alignment, attitude and behaviour.

Victims are what Belkar is surrounded by.
I'd guess that Belkar would be about 3rd or 4th on the OotS body count board.

Pvednes

2006-01-23, 01:58 AM

Ferocious lil bastard. :D

Lilly

2006-01-23, 02:34 AM

Looking forward to round two in the clash of alignments.

Does anyone remember when it took us half a month to get to 50 pages in these threads?

I remember when it took forever to get to get to 50 pages on a monthly thread, and some of them didn't even get close to 50. Y'all just seem to have had too much time on your hands this weekend.

Vampire_Boy

2006-01-23, 02:48 AM

"...and as the gods have no limits on their jurisdiction, neither do we."

You might want to rethink your stance.

Err, just because Shojo says that he has no limits on his jurisdiction? Uh, hardly a compelling argument.

Erathia

2006-01-23, 03:32 AM

The_GoldFish

2006-01-23, 03:37 AM

(edited to have colour because I didn't want to break any spoiler related policy)

Personally, I hope she survives but takes quite a bit of damage from the flames.

While standing there enraged, Belkar sneaks up on her, and then heals her.

But I suppose not everyone would find that as funny as I do?

I'd say most of the whole, lawful/chaotic stuff it limited in scope, mostly for applications in small towns and nearby dungeons, and can't really account for cross national affairs...

rosebud

2006-01-23, 03:45 AM

Y'all just seem to have had too much time on your hands this weekend.I think once a thread gets to a certain size, it starts repeating. Both within the thread and across the threads, the discussion has contained a lot of (often needless) repetition. Also, I think once a thread gets to a certain size, it starts repeating.

Ravyn

2006-01-23, 03:52 AM

GoldFish: that's the most off-the-wall, generally implausible and out of left field suggestion I've seen in this entire argument... I love it!

And it is in a sense in-character for Belkar too--Miko, with all her honor and pride, owing him her life, would probably be every bit as satisfying for him as killing her, given how fond he is of messing with people's minds. I can just see it: weapon to back, and his voice saying "Don't move; this is going to sting, and struggling will only make it worse..." followed by the application of some sort of burn salve.

Yeah, the odds of that happening are somewhere between infinitesimal and none. But we can dream, right?

Edit: also being careful about spoilering.

Mattaeu

2006-01-23, 03:53 AM

OMG. belkar needs to die now. it's so wrong to light people on fire. [/sarcasm]

to be honest, i just skimmed the last 10 or so pages in case there were any good points reiterated. my vote stays with belkar only because he's good bad guy. i associate him to that party member that you hire for their skills, not their alignment. he does his job, no questions asked.

yup. doubt there will be any death from this encounter...just a severe maiming.<-did i need to edit that?

[set closing statement=sarcasm]
yes, belkar needs to die now. [/sarcasm] except i don't see how it's alright to go down that road but not the "miko needs to die now" one.

JPyke

2006-01-23, 04:45 AM

I've never posted here, but I've got to say that this was my all time favorite comic out of all 270 of em. After reading it I just cackled, "Ah ha ha! That was awesome!" Belkar is my hero!

Vampire_Boy

2006-01-23, 04:54 AM

He is obeying the will of the Gods he worships, the Order is not under arrest because they have violated a law of the Azure City, but rather have commited an action that his Gods say cannot be allowed.

In a polytheist setting like the OoTS one, where there are so many gods, you cannot even take a fart without offending some of the gods. FRom that perspective, you really should be just staying behind closed doors 24/7, because god forbid, pushing the wrong kind of button, even not knowing what it's there for, can summon a fanatical servant of some God on your neck, have you beaten up and dragged in chains over half the world. Hardly seems fair, doesn't it?

I mean, in comparison the Order having killed off hundreds of poor goblins, doesn't even get them in trouble with some pissed off goblin deity. ;)

They're just out to stop people from destroying the fabric of the world

I don't see that. I see them being out there to punish people who have completely accidentally destroyed some crappy old plot-device, I mean, gate.

Vampire_Boy

2006-01-23, 04:57 AM

yes, belkar needs to die now. [/sarcasm] except i don't see how it's alright to go down that road but not the "miko needs to die now" one.

Because people saying that think themselves LG and Belkar is, obviously, Evil - that makes it alright! :D

Not that I think that wishing for a character death is something bad - be it Miko, or Belkar. ;)

kerberos

2006-01-23, 05:21 AM

There are plenty of posts in this thread about Belkar crossing the line etc, so without going into deltails I will submit that Belkar's behaviour is different.
I really don't see that. Belkar is behaving exactly like Belkar. Sure he's having a psychotic episode, but considering he IS a psychopath that's fairly normal. :p

But "a long time" is a slippery fish. It is not clear when the pshycological damage caused by solitary confinement becomes significant enough to be considered torture.
Sure, but a few hours, a day at the most is unlikely to qualify.

This fuzzy line would become even more blured with the racial differences.
If there are significant racial differences.

lso it is fairly clear that Miko's motivation for putting Belkar into "The Hole" is petty payback.
Totally, petty and unpaladinish. I believe I mentioned that myself, but petty doesn't equal torture.

Musrum

2006-01-23, 05:43 AM

I really don't see that. Belkar is behaving exactly like Belkar. Sure he's having a psychotic episode, but considering he IS a psychopath that's fairly normal. :p

Sure, but a few hours, a day at the most is unlikely to qualify.

If there are significant racial differences.

Totally, petty and unpaladinish. I believe I mentioned that myself, but petty doesn't equal torture.

I don't believe there was torture, but my point is that there was *potential* for torture. Maybe there is no extra risk for Halflings in solitary, I don't know and I'm pretty sure Miko doesn't either.

When it comes down to it, the line between punishment and torture cannot be known, and with the potential compilcations of a relatively uncommon race/culture (for Miko) it becomes even more unknowable. So she shouldn't be messing with this grey area. Especially when her motives are so impure.

VariaVespasa

2006-01-23, 06:10 AM

Err, just because Shojo says that he has no limits on his jurisdiction? Uh, hardly a compelling argument.

You beat me to it, but I'll second it- Just because someone says it doesnt make it true, and logical independant thought strongly suggests its not true. The jurisdiction of the overall divine may not be limited, but the jurisdiction of specific bits of the divine surely is, in a multi-pantheon world. Only when ALL the independant pantheons in the world combine can you say that divine law is everywhere, and there is so far NO such evidence that any other pantheon than the 12 gods is involved in this.

*Hugs*
Varia

tis_tom

2006-01-23, 06:33 AM

Musrum

2006-01-23, 06:40 AM

Wait something I'm confused about- but I don't play dnd so maybe someone can explain. How come Miko was able to dodge V's fireball when they first met? and doing that big jumping thing again when fighting the ogres, but she wasn't able to dodge a much smaller object such as a dagger or flaming torch?

Is it to do with the dexterity of the attacker or something? Because if not I'm not really understanding how Miko could be hit so easily ???

p.s go miko!

Dodging fireballs is a reflex save. Miko has a tweeked out reflex save due to her Classes (Monk and Paladin) and also has the Evasion ability from Monk which says: when you make your save to take no damage, instead of half damage.

The other attacks where just straight ranged attacks (although the match was a touch attack) against her armor class.

eof

2006-01-23, 06:43 AM

Wait something I'm confused about- but I don't play dnd so maybe someone can explain. How come Miko was able to dodge V's fireball when they first met? and doing that big jumping thing again when fighting the ogres, but she wasn't able to dodge a much smaller object such as a dagger or flaming torch?

Is it to do with the dexterity of the attacker or something? Because if not I'm not really understanding how Miko could be hit so easily ???

p.s go miko!

Miko has the Evasion class ability from her Monk levels, which allows the character to avoid damage entirely when she successfully saves against an attack that normally gives half damage on a successful Reflex save.

The Fireball spell is one such attack (and the actual jumping likely poetic license, but whatever), but normal attacks (such as a thrown dagger/torch) don't give saving throws, but instead require the attacker to successfully hit the target.

RBloom0566

2006-01-23, 07:03 AM

Alright already!
It's FINALLY Monday. (Granted, it's 6am Eastern/3am Pacific)
So where's my OOTS??? *Bites Nails*

Bakta

2006-01-23, 07:14 AM

He is obeying the will of the Gods he worships, the Order is not under arrest because they have violated a law of the Azure City, but rather have commited an action that his Gods say cannot be allowed. Thus a Paladin, a servant of a cause was sent to capture them. Whether or not the cause is fair or reasonable is besides the point, because the cause they fight for is not limited by any boundary... unless the cause has defined boundaries. Which this one doesn't. They're just out to stop people from destroying the fabric of the world

The problem is not what or which god they offended, just because he is LG means Roy offend a lot of gods, but who should wield temporal power. Shojo did not sent a planar being to arrest them he sent a mortal. And mortal has to follow secular powers.

Let's take this to our days, it would mean a theocracy has the same to send a zealot of any kind to arrest someone in any country in the world. I can picture lawyers wetting themselves with that one.

We can always assume that shojo and the king of nowhere or somewhere has a treaty allowing for such cases. But, with DD being set in a medieval wolrd, the right of justice is not something to be treaded upon lightly.

Come to think of it, why isn't an anti-paladin coming to arrest Miko on charge of preventing world destruction?. And another one on other charges, and on and on. Have them all in the same inn (old dm plot), and send Belkar in...

*daydream*

Greebo

2006-01-23, 09:52 AM

Dodging fireballs is a reflex save. Miko has a tweeked out reflex save due to her Classes (Monk and Paladin) and also has the Evasion ability from Monk which says: when you make your save to take no damage, instead of half damage.

The other attacks where just straight ranged attacks (although the match was a touch attack) against her armor class.
Not to mention, the torch didn't have to hit Miko.

All it had to do was hit the Sake.

As long as she was anywhere near the flame, the vapors rising from the evaporating alcohol would ignite and the flame would spread back to her and the puddle of rice wine in which she stands.

The good news, for Miko fans, and bad news for Belkar fans, is that alcohol burns off very quickly.

The bad news for Miko fans, and good news for Belkar fans, is that it will have burned long enough to ignite her clothing.

Miko will be very uncomfortable. Were I still DMing, I would have to rule that this type of burning would be subject to substantially higher damage dice than exposure to fire from a source not located on ones person, like that of the fire in the Inn.

Ilaun_Undil

2006-01-23, 10:07 AM

Alright already!
It's FINALLY Monday. (Granted, it's 6am Eastern/3am Pacific)
So where's my OOTS??? *Bites Nails*
patience patience.... not meaning to be cynical or evil, OOTS hasn't been updated till evening for the last week or so. Anyway Rich will get there when he will. I do hope soon though.

Anyway I have a feeling it is looking perty bleak now. poor Xykon might not be able to get his revenge.

Cheiromancer

2006-01-23, 10:07 AM

I think once a thread gets to a certain size, it starts repeating. Both within the thread and across the threads, the discussion has contained a lot of (often needless) repetition. Also, I think once a thread gets to a certain size, it starts repeating.

You can say that again! ;D

The Glyphstone

2006-01-23, 10:26 AM

I think the Giant is punishing us for getting so worked up over #270. That, or he had te rewrite the storyline for the comic again because someone in the thread posted a [SPOILER] here and not in a [SPOILER] thread.

Alfryd

2006-01-23, 10:30 AM

Not only that, but, uh, being of the opposite gender, Miko would see it as Lawful and inevitable that we had sex.

Purely for procreation, of course.
Of course. *nods sagely*

So actually, [Being evil] in a wierd, inverse sort of way, that makes you good.
Thank Krolm you don't do my finance accounts.

This is getting way above my 10 int skill.
Try int 17 and cha 4.

I disagree. It's not evil to fight and fail.
It may be evil to fight and *willingly* fail. Which you are conceivably doing if you don't leverage every advantage.

It is evil to commit evil in the furtherance of good.
Yes, but it may be a greater evil to allow evil to have it's way unchecked.

Some are willing to take that expediency and can be still be considered, on the whole, good. For a paladin, that's not a line to cross.
Yes, because they're a particular brand of Lawful.

...But it's the rape, burn, and pillage part that would be evil.
And as a forseeable consequence of your actions, you would hold some responsibility. Otherwise it's like saying that nicaraguan death squads are evil but the people who equip and fund them aren't.

...And there are plenty of cases where it paves the road to hell.
There is the question of whether allowing individuals the power to make that kind of decision would inevitably corrupt their sensibilities, and indeed there is good evidence to that effect, but that is a seperate issue, related to ethics. I've always felt there's a thin line seperating Lawful Evil and Chaotic Good. They can both revolve around 'the end justifies the means.' It grants them greater power.

...At least one guard is dead. By your reckonging, Miko thus committed an evil act...
Only if the result was reasonably forseeable as a consequence of her deeds, and the forseeable consequences of alternatives were not worse.

Simmering rage isn't exactly a good justification.
No, it isn't. But, at the same time, it can rob someone of the ability to think clearly.

She committed several errors, and several of them not slight...
Tactically? I can't say I spotted them, but no-one's infallible.

Certain acts are Evil, period. Torture is one of them, murder is another...
Yes, they are. But the alternatives can be worse, depending on circumstance. Morality is not something you are, or even something you do, it is something you decide to do. All destruction is a cocnession to evil, but amputation may be preferred over gangrene.

Traveling with Roy could very well have led to Belkar's redemption.
I note you present no evidence for this.

Her not bringing support wasn't ego trip, but pride, which is a flaw in itself, however.
It's possible that bringing along low-level underlings would simply result in nasty stabbity death all too soon for the newblings, and higher-level associates were otherwise occupied.

What a Paladin should not do is compromise their morals or integrity to get things the easy way...
Of course they shouldn't. But they shouldn't let innocents die needlessly for the sake of their honour code either. Failing to serve the greater good because you believe it will stain your personal moral record is, ultimately, a selfish decision.

He knew this battle was going to come adventually so he just picked the time and place for his battle. no evil in that.
This is a viable argument, but I am skeptical as to whether Belkar would not be better off resting and re-equipping himself outside the stronghold before arranging a face-off. There may be a psychological advantage to immediate confrontation, however.

Actually [associating with Belkar] is a good act, they keep him in check.
They have no effective means of keeping Belkar to heel unless their mutual goals happen to coincide. This is rationalisation on Roy's part.
I could really, really, do without that.

They are being held in Azure City facilities for crimes that are religious in nature...
The fabric of the universe is not a matter of abstract theological speculation.

...Or were the five options something along the lines of 'Stupid, ignorant, callous, cruel, nasty'?
I'll go with 'inconsistent,' for 500.

...Are they actually doing good in the world when Xycon goes to his backup lair and gains control of the Hobgoblin Legions?
Yes, it is evil to destroy Xykon. But not doing so is worse. So the decision to kill him would be good.

How does that relate to Miko? She is Good to the point of no longer being good. All of her actions so far make perfect sense when veiwed through the close-minded prisim of Extreme Good.
I'm not entirely certain of this, but there is some logic to your arguments. I will have to withold further commentary until the strip progresses further. (Should it include Miko)

...Your comments are starting to be positively self righteous and preachy... While such is amusing in a certain brilliantly written paladin character, it's pretty tiresome in a real person.
I've seen worse. You should check out Usenet at some point.

...the law of any particular set of deities, such as the 12 gods of the south, is no more all-encompassing than the law of any one country.
If Odin & Co. object, I'm sure they can make their feelings known.

Given Roys responses to Miko at various times it seems quite likely (but not certain) that both the gate and the OOTS were out of the 12 gods territory at the time.
What? Based on Roy's finding the situation inconvenient?

Since he has them in Azure City facilities, he is using secular powers on a divine case...
He is using Azure Guard facilities, which are under divine jurisdiction.

In the end 'divine law' boils down to 'I have lots of people with pointy metal objects who agree with me, so whatcha going to do about it?'.
That sounds very similar to secular law.

It is clear that her "punishment" was sufficient to stimulate a psychotic episode in the victim.
Belkar's imprisonment was a highly effective method of securing the most dangerous prisoner in the group- in a subterranean pit with no assistance and one sealed opening with 3 padlocks. The ring of jumping was not her fault. She may have taken a certain relish in the irony.

We don't know much about Halfling psychology but it is possible that they are extra sensitive to this form of torture...
And what if he dies of infection from those scratches? There is such a things as a reasonable level of risk.

Chaining a prisoner in 5 feet of sewage is humiliating for a Human, but deadly for a Dwarf.
I think the difference there can be easily spotted.

And mortal has to follow secular powers.
I don't see why this especially applies to mortals, it's more an issue of enforceability.

Shatteredtower

2006-01-23, 10:39 AM

Does anyone else think: "Oooh, hot mock Asian chick in wet clothing!" or is my mnd visiting the wrong places again? (Hot? Of course she is. That Miko's on fire, I tell ya.)

Secondly: Miko is a freaking antangonist! Belkar is a protagonist! How the heck can you be rooting for Miko?

I root for antagonists all the time, even when I want them to lose. I want them to be interesting. Sometimes I even want them to be sympathetic. But I hate it when they go do in a meaningless fashion. If it doesn't show the protagonist to at least be clever, resourceful, intelligent, or somehow awe-inspiring, I'll feel disappointed.

This little conflict isn't letting me down. No matter how many or how few deaths it results in, I'm pretty sure I'll be satisfied with how it's played out.

Do I want Belkar to win? Only if it's interesting. Ditto for Miko. Ditto for any result that sees two losers.

I can only carry suspension of belief so far. The death of a friend is real. I've lost classmates to fire. I've lost family members to deliberate poisoning. I've witnessed electrocution. When these happened in the comic, I laughed, because I found amusement value in it. Comedy relies heavily on the sentiment, "I'm so glad this isn't real." If a comic character dies, you still have the archives and back issues. All that matters to me is that it's well-written -- and it is.

I don't care what characters "deserve" beyond good writing.

No, the EVIL act was the destruction of the gate and the weakening of the fabric of the universe.

But...but they do that every time they break the fourth wall!

hatsinger

2006-01-23, 10:44 AM

Sorry by the bad english, I'm brazilian.

1) People, please just calm down. It's not just comics, it's also DND. It's color coded for your convenience. You splash acid in your enemies with no regrets. A called shot mangle people and nobody cares. It's like in "Austin Power" taking fun on 007: brutes also have family and nobody cares.

2) I 've been reading OOTS for a long time and The Giant is good at writing stories and entertaining people. Belkar is funny and he should live on. Miko also adds to the comic and she propably will live on. Please note that the plot is thickening we have now three storylines (Linear Guild, Xykon and Shojo).

3) Before judging Belkar, please remember: he is alone, in a fortress and down on HP and rather satayed and fought miko than left his comrades.

4) I confess that the debate LG x CE do not add much. As Rich Said: he will do anything to make the strip funny. And I confess that I'm a little confused about Belkar alignment: is he truly CE? If so, why he became good when V caste Owl's wisdom on him? It doesn't lokk pretty CE became good just because he gained some WIS.

5) SPOILER: I doubt any of them will get killed. In my opinion is possible that Belkar will just show Miko that he could have defeated her and then use this to help the OOTS. I also like to imagine the trial with Roy deciding to be judged guilty just to not abandon Belkar. And last: who said that they destroyed the gate? Elan destroyed the castle. Would the very fabric of the universe be threatened as easy?

evileeyore

2006-01-23, 11:09 AM

Were I still DMing, I would have to rule that this type of burning would be subject to substantially higher damage dice than exposure to fire from a source not located on ones person, like that of the fire in the Inn.
Two inherent flaws in that approach:

1) Being dosed in Oil and being lit on fire results in a d6 damage each round until being put out. As per the written rules (the same for Alchemist's Fire)

2) Standing in a puddle of flames, d3 damage each round. As per the rules.

3) Subjected to extreme heat, as if in a lava filled cave or burning structure, 1d6 damage each round from breathing the air. Further damage if one contacts the fire or any hot metal, as well as subdual damage each minute if one fails a Fort save.

aaronbourque

2006-01-23, 11:22 AM

That "They are being held in Azure City facilities for crimes that are religious in nature" Hey! learn to read.
It is the Sapphire Guard's devotion to gods that grants them the authority to prosecute crimes against reality, which aren't "religious in nature" so much as "affect everyone."

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

aaronbourque

2006-01-23, 11:37 AM

We have no evidence that Miko thinks anyone in the party apart from Durkon is LG. All she knows about them is that they don't show up on her evilometer.
::sigh::

Context. It was claimed that Miko sees no shades of grey, which is factually in error, because she treats Evil as one or two Smite Evils away from dead, and Good the way she treats Durkon. And yet, she hasn't killed the Order, nor does she treat them the way she treats Durkon.

She is capable of more than two reactions.

Actually, if Miko did understand that disagreeing with her does not make them wrong, then she would treat everyone like she does Durkon. She treats Durkon the way she does because Durkon has agreed with her course of actions.
Well, that's because she's honorable and dutiful and just and Good, and expects respect for that, and believes her course of action--bringing the Order to judgement, is honorable and dutiful and just and Good.

He is using his secular powers to aid is divine cause.

How?

[set closing statement=sarcasm]yes, belkar needs to die now. [/sarcasm] except i don't see how it's alright to go down that road but not the "miko needs to die now" one.
I just don't care whether Belkar lives or dies. I'm not actively hoping for him to die, and won't be cheering if Miko manages to turn the tables on him and lights him on fire.

No "burn, baby, burn" posts for me.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque