OOTS #270 - The Discussion Thread [Archive] - Page 3

View Full Version : OOTS #270 - The Discussion Thread

Pages : 1 2 [3] 4

theKOT

2006-01-23, 12:19 PM

I just don't care whether Belkar lives or dies. I'm not actively hoping for him to die, and won't be cheering if Miko manages to turn the tables on him and lights him on fire.

No "burn, baby, burn" posts for me.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque
Yeah, I actually like the theory that [spoiler] Miko joins the order and belkar the Linear Guild
[spoiler]
I think that would satisfy me most, but I don't doubt whatever happens will be well done.
[edit] Woot! 500th post! Supernatural powers flowing through my veins!!!!

uranium194

2006-01-23, 01:54 PM

I have registered only to post here that #270 is by fat the best COMIC I have ever read in my life (and I read lots of comics... daily, as a matter of fact). From it's very beggining to the hilarious end, it's perfect!!! All of Belkar sentences will make excellent shirts and I will be forced to import some of them all the way down to Brazil... :-)

God bless the Giant!!!

That's all for now!!

WOW by FAT? that is some comic. :-) I throughly enjoy a good Belkar side venture, because I have had many charcters that were trying to strive to Belkars awesome talents.

Devoured_Dude

2006-01-23, 01:56 PM

I think the Giant is punishing us for getting so worked up over #270. That, or he had te rewrite the storyline for the comic again because someone in the thread posted a [SPOILER] here and not in a [SPOILER] thread.

Do you really think a busy guy like Rich has really read through all 35 pages of comments?

Sanctu

2006-01-23, 01:58 PM

People keep saying the Belkar is psychotic. I don't understand. He isn't acting delusional or against his "normal" personality or anything associated with psychosis at all. This isn't even an "episode" for him, apart from not having the rest of the chacaters around to stop him from his brand of fun. He's not insane at all -- chaotic evil, yes, but not insane.

I've said it before: I feel sorry for the guards. But Belkar's whole reaction is a scream, and very classicaly "hack and slash" oriented. I, myself, have to cheer again at him in the comic, even though I don't want to se ehim kill more people.

Battling Miko seems fitting, too. We know it fits his personality. And I find it interesting that (1) we get to watch the two battle and (2) we are talking about the more.. unpleasant people... in both groups: Belkar, the blood thirty evil order member, and Miko, who is sent away on missions both for her effectiveness and the fact that she is too uptight for even a city full of other paladins.

Tariskat

2006-01-23, 02:01 PM

Okie doke, folks, I've thought of two things I'd like to say before I forget them. If someone has already mentioned this, I apologize; I'm still reading all the posts.
First off, it's been mentioned that belkar only ever has two daggers. Well, what says he doesn't have more? He had his Ring of Jumping hidden on his.. "person," so he could have some more daggers up his sleeves, regardless of if the warehouse has arms.
Second, it's been mentioned that Belkar is evil for wanting to kill Miko, but the order (esp. V) is not evil for killing bad guys. Well, didn't Roy leave Elan for dead? Didn't he want to thank the bandits for giving them a "penicillin shot" against the stupidity that is Elan? (yeah, I like him too, but I'm just saying.)
But no one seems to see him as evil. Yes, he came to his senses.. eventually. But it isn't over for Miko and Belkar by any means.

evileeyore

2006-01-23, 02:13 PM

People keep saying the Belkar is psychotic. I don't understand. He isn't acting delusional or against his "normal" personality or anything associated with psychosis at all. This isn't even an "episode" for him, apart from not having the rest of the chacaters around to stop him from his brand of fun. He's not insane at all -- chaotic evil, yes, but not insane.I blame the media.

No really. Movies, tv, even the news routinely make errors in terminology. Thus everyone saying "psychotic" is actually meaning "sociopathic" or "psychopathic". And no, he isn't having an "epsiode", unless you count his whole Evil life to be an episode...

He is however either sociopathic or psychopathic, depending on the current definitions (and they change roughly every 5 years...).

As far as I can tell the most current "definition"* is:

Sociopath: a psychopath that has commited a crime.

Psycopath: an individual that feels no remorse, often feels that they are superior or advanced in comparison other people, someone that is amoral. Very often to some degree delusional or displaying other psychosis or neurosis.

Thus in my opinion Belkar is a Sociopath and needs to be killed for the Good of society

Sociopath--EvilE

Amalthea

2006-01-23, 02:15 PM

She hates and torments him because he's evil. Seems like they're even.
She may hate him, it's quite easy to despise Belkar after all, but she didn't torment him.
Belkar, on the other hand, only gave his parole to see if he could make her lose her paladin status (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=206).
In fact, he's the only one of the OotS (save Durkon) who didn't express some personal animosity towards Miko. Belkar's animosity is impersonal, he would have done it to any paladin.

SteveMB

2006-01-23, 02:21 PM

First off, it's been mentioned that belkar only ever has two daggers. Well, what says he doesn't have more? He had his Ring of Jumping hidden on his.. "person," so he could have some more daggers up his sleeves, regardless of if the warehouse has arms.
Belkar surely didn't have his original pair of daggers -- Miko knew about them, and would have put them in the bag with the OotS's other (known) weapons and magic items (www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=251). The ones he has now were presumably "liberated" from local supplies.

Sanctu

2006-01-23, 02:22 PM

Second, it's been mentioned that Belkar is evil for wanting to kill Miko...

*shrugs* Killng Miko or not, Belkar is evil. We knew that.

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=11

And I'm sure I don't have to bring up the lead screen :)

But no one seems to see him as evil. Yes, he came to his senses.. eventually. But it isn't over for Miko and Belkar by any means.

Well, he might get over it... perhaps a Wisdom increasing item...

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=58

aaronbourque

2006-01-23, 02:23 PM

Well, didn't Roy leave Elan for dead? Didn't he want to thank the bandits for giving them a "penicillin shot" against the stupidity that is Elan? (yeah, I like him too, but I'm just saying.)
But no one seems to see him as evil. Yes, he came to his senses.. eventually. But it isn't over for Miko and Belkar by any means.
Wow.

First of all, is everyone's value systems warped when it comes to RPGs?

Second: Roy's choice to not get involved was a passive thing. He didn't actively set Elan up to get captured by the bandits. He didn't actively set any otherwise Good character up to get hurt and maybe killed. He didn't devise a trap and goad anyone to enter it despite their better judgement.

They're so not the same, it's no longer a matter of apples and oranges, but apples and hyenas.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

evileeyore

2006-01-23, 02:36 PM

Wow.

First of all, is everyone's value systems warped when it comes to RPGs?

Second: Roy's choice to not get involved was a passive thing. He didn't actively set Elan up to get captured by the bandits. He didn't actively set any otherwise Good character up to get hurt and maybe killed. He didn't devise a trap and goad anyone to enter it despite their better judgement.

They're so not the same, it's no longer a matter of apples and oranges, but apples and hyenas.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" BourqueAs well Roy is actively Good.

Yes he initially wanted to leave Elan behind, he doesn't like Elan. I have a friend like Elan and noone likes him but me. When he left for another country everyone hailed the day as great, no that he is returning everyone curses (just the reverse for me).

However Roy realized, on his own, that he was seriously in the wrong. He is a Good Guy, and Good Guys protect those weaker than them. He made a moral choice.

Belkar makes the same choices, and always in favor of of Evil, or he throws an "Evil" spin on it so the DM won't hit him with an alignment change.

Sanctu

2006-01-23, 02:44 PM

First of all, is everyone's value systems warped when it comes to RPGs?

In my opinion, yes. Especially with D&D, but they are for other games as well. Racism abound, creatures color coded for your justification in their deaths, and murder the requirement for any significant advancement in personal power.

nuance

2006-01-23, 02:45 PM

*shrugs* Killng Miko or not, Belkar is evil. We knew that.

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=11

That isn't conclusive, neutral characters only take half damage (quarter with a successful will save) from a 5d8 maximum. Also the other effects (sickened for 1d4 rounds) wouldn't affect a neutral character either.

And I'm sure I don't have to bring up the lead screen :)

Slightly more conclusive, but he could just be messing with her head and trying to frustrate her. Messing with people's heads is a Belkar speciality after all.

theKOT

2006-01-23, 02:48 PM

That isn't conclusive, neutral characters only take half damage (quarter with a successful will save) from a 5d8 maximum. Also the other effects (sickened for 1d4 rounds) wouldn't affect a neutral character either.

Well, Elan says that Belkar wasn't affected, and I doubt that the rest of his sentence was going to be "as much as we were." Also, he doesn't appear to be in any pain whatsoever.

Slightly more conclusive, but he could just be messing with her head and trying to frustrate her. Messing with people's heads is a Belkar speciality after all.
Especially with blood murals. There's still the whole selling samantha into slavery thing, willing to kill Elan for XP, need I go on?

DeathQuaker

2006-01-23, 02:50 PM

First of all, is everyone's value systems warped when it comes to RPGs?

No, but I think some folks (myself included) can be tempted to twist facts, sometimes brutally, to support a character we like.

For Belkar fans, I have noticed an odd trend in that some people have started making some fantastically warped arguments because they have, in my own interpretation which could well be wrong, come to this dilemma in their minds: "I like Belkar. Rich says Belkar is evil. But I like Belkar, and I am not evil, and therefore Belkar cannot be evil." Completely forgetting the fact that Belkar, for the bulk of the script, is the sort of depraved jerk most people find amusing in a humorous story which OOTS is but would probably not want to know in real life. Instead of accepting the fact that Belkar is, indeed, evil, they try to twist the actions of other characters to show how they are evil and that Belkar therefore cannot be evil (or is at least just like all the other characters).

Right now Belkar has stepped out of his role of Strongbad-like comic relief and we are seeing a darker side to his depravity and cruelty, causing an even greater polarization of opinion of him, and so even more bizarre interpretations of other characters come out in hopes that it will help folks keep their opinions of Belkar within their comfort zones.

Of course, there are also many Belkar fans who KNOW and accept that he is depraved and evil and make no excuses for him.

And likewise fans and haters of Miko and other OOTS members who do similar things. It can get frustrating if you find yourself in the middle of these arguments. But it's hella fun to sit back and watch and see both sides of the argument... :)

Adeptus

2006-01-23, 02:50 PM

Aw, give it a rest Nuance. :(

The Giant says he's chaotic evil, so deal with it.

I think the point is that the D&D alignments are so artifiscial, that it doesn't stop him from being more of a loveable rascal than a mindless killer.

Everybody is going on about belkar's violence, but D&D is basically war. Just look at Roy (lawful good) killing helpless goblins (that hadn't attacked them) in their sleep.

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=11

Belkar isn't really all that much more violent than the rest of the merry roughnecks in the order.

Sylvius

2006-01-23, 02:55 PM

Good ol' d20 system. Rulings for every possible occurence, oddity, circumstance, permutation, combination, ejaculation, defenestration, and just plain weird thing that can happen in game, spelled out in plain english.

/me longs for the days of 2e when DMs still actually had to work for a living. ;D ;)

That's only because the 2E designers got lazy. 1E had rules for all sorts of stuff like this. Each item Miko is carrying would have had to make its own save against non-magical fire or be destroyed by this little experiment in immolation.

Hoopy_Frood

2006-01-23, 03:44 PM

I'm curious as to what kind of Sake they brew around those parts.

Sake typically maxes out at 25% alcohol. One would be hard pressed to ignite a 25% alcohol solution. Particularly by merely tossing a torch at it.

It typically takes at least 40% solution of alcohol at room temperature to even stand a chance.

Corin

2006-01-23, 03:55 PM

Me? I always root for the bad guy, and so do all of my friends. That's why this makes for such interesting reading, because absolutely no one I hang out with would be having any problems with this strip. We'd all be rooting for Belkar, as we did for Vader, Mephistopheles, and any other well done villain. I was pulling for Xykon when he fought the order, and one of my happiest moments was the series where Redcloak grew up and started being really evil (Hobgoblins as snacks).

It's really odd for me to see a large faction actively supporting an annoying good character.

RebelRogue

2006-01-23, 03:56 PM

Ok, some people here just need to get a life, IMHO! 30+ pages of debate over this? With most of it being reiteration of the contents of other threads.

Just to point out the obvious: People like Belkar because he's funny and because he's cool, the same way Darth Vader is cool. You don't have to be evil IRL to think a fictional evil character is cool! Besides, if what happens in a stick figure comic strip causes you mental distress I can only wish you good luck getting through the average Hollywood action movie!

aaronbourque

2006-01-23, 04:05 PM

Just to point out the obvious: People like Belkar because he's funny and because he's cool,

And if some people no longer or never did find Belkar funny and/or cool?

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

ref

2006-01-23, 04:06 PM

Go Belkar kill her now.

Hey ref bad call just like TD play for the Carolina.

Haven't seen that play, but I've noticed people are too quick on crying "bad call" when many times it's not a bad call. This game is hard to know each and every ruling ;) [Not saying that it is the case. I insist, I didn't see the play]

Not that it was a close game anyway...

[nudging now]
Let's see what #271 is gonna give to us, right now there are many open lines :)

uranium194

2006-01-23, 04:10 PM

Ok, some people here just need to get a life, IMHO! 30+ pages of debate over this? With most of it being reiteration of the contents of other threads.

Not to mention the countless times people over analyzed the comic. It's supposed to be funny, not historically/physically/chemically accurate. The Sake and the burining was funny, I laughed I went on. I didnt go around wondering the % of alcohol or how long it would burn.
Oh well its my opinion and I will respect the others and go on.

theKOT

2006-01-23, 04:23 PM

Not to mention the countless times people over analyzed the comic. It's supposed to be funny, not historically/physically/chemically accurate. The Sake and the burining was funny, I laughed I went on. I didnt go around wondering the % of alcohol or how long it would burn.
Oh well its my opinion and I will respect the others and go on.

All this is because, to some people(me included), a strip is made more fun by over-debating and analyzing it. I had a friend who couldn't stand it when my other friend and I would do stuff like that. It drove him crazy! But for some reason, people like me can't help themselves.
[edit] uhoh ref! We'd better fight to the death over rights to this avatar!

RebelRogue

2006-01-23, 04:23 PM

And if some people no longer or never did find Belkar funny and/or cool?
Then I'm seriously wondering why they're still reading the comic, to be honest!

Supagoof

2006-01-23, 04:29 PM

Woot! Go Belkar! Kill Miko and her little horse too. ;D (no probably not gonna happen, but she may be disappated for the remainder of the trial)

I love his use of taunts to get her to not call for help. "It's cool if you're scared" technique used by bullying children everywhere.

Don't get me wrong, I love paladins, especially the one I'm currently playing which is based on Miko. But I want to see the dark side grow in Belkar. Luke was okay, but Vadar is greater.

evileeyore

2006-01-23, 04:33 PM

theKOT

2006-01-23, 04:33 PM

Then I'm seriously wondering why they're still reading the comic, to be honest!

For other characters, maybe? Up until this moment, belkar was just a side-character used for the occasional stabbity joke. Personally, I like belkar, but I like miko's potential(for development) alot and think it is ridiculous when people try to justify his actions.

Greebo

2006-01-23, 04:41 PM

Rincewind the Wizard fans?
To be fair, I wouldn't categorize Rincewind as annoyingly good.

Just annoying.

I mean, c'mon - Rincewind is motivated PURELY by self interest and survival.

uranium194

2006-01-23, 04:48 PM

All this is because, to some people(me included), a strip is made more fun by over-debating and analyzing it. I had a friend who couldn't stand it when my other friend and I would do stuff like that. It drove him crazy! But for some reason, people like me can't help themselves.
[edit] uhoh ref! We'd better fight to the death over rights to this avatar!

True, like I said I just go on to the next one....Its no big deal to over analyze, just happens alot on here. I have seen other webcomics where this gets into seriously heated debates to the point where the webcomic gets fed up. Never seems to happen here though (well at least not in that strong of a discussion.)

RebelRogue

2006-01-23, 04:48 PM

For other characters, maybe? Up until this moment, belkar was just a side-character used for the occasional stabbity joke. Personally, I like belkar, but I like miko's potential(for development) alot and think it is ridiculous when people try to justify his actions.
Sure, and of course I was half joking about it as well. Still, I think the style of the Belkar-based humour seems very much to represent the style of Rich. But maybe that's just me...

hatsinger

2006-01-23, 04:49 PM

P.s.: I remembered now that there are two types of Sake. The rice wine and the rice brandy.

And I also remembered one of the topics of the FAQ: the giant commands the plot. If he wants her to fail, she WILL fail.

evileeyore

2006-01-23, 04:57 PM

To be fair, I wouldn't categorize Rincewind as annoyingly good.

Just annoying.

I mean, c'mon - Rincewind is motivated PURELY by self interest and survival.

Okay. I'll let this one go. It is true he is oftne manipulated by his Goddess into doing the right thing purely by happening to be in the right place, at the right time, and the right is always "Save Rincewind's Hide".

However he is "Good". Not the LG of say Carrot Ironfounderson, but certianly more good than say Cohen the Barabarian (who also usually ends up doing Good).

Malastare

2006-01-23, 04:59 PM

Belkar's actions are clearly in my view a lampoon on the view that chaotic evil players take of their alignment, just as Miko did the same for LG. Belkar is so over-the-top that it *is* funny, whatever people on this board may say. Comedy violence can be hilarious, just look at Monty Python. The whole of Miko's chase of Belkar is such a blatant lampoon of both stereotypes that moral justification need not enter into it at all! The whole point is that Belkar's acts are atrociously evil and Miko has no compassion, to show the stupidity of the concept of an absolute alignment.

theKOT

2006-01-23, 05:07 PM

Sure, and of course I was half joking about it as well. Still, I think the style of the Belkar-based humour seems very much to represent the style of Rich. But maybe that's just me...
Ahh, sorry, I had a miko-like sarcasm miss there. As I have previously stated, I like belkar and wouldn't be mad at all if he somehow got away with this and rejoined the Oots. I just don't want him to kill miko and don't think the "He's chaotic neutral!" people have a leg to stand on.

themob212

2006-01-23, 05:09 PM

Okay. I'll let this one go. It is true he is oftne manipulated by his Goddess into doing the right thing purely by happening to be in the right place, at the right time, and the right is always "Save Rincewind's Hide".

However he is "Good". Not the LG of say Carrot Ironfounderson, but certianly more good than say Cohen the Barabarian (who also usually ends up doing Good).

Dunno I would say Cohen was more CG than anything else if only because he is a Hero and it’s under the job description.

Also Vimes: alignment discuss

afflictedkender

2006-01-23, 05:10 PM

Actually, I don't think Belkar is a psychopath (as I understand the term). Psychopaths tend not to care so much about revenge, which Belkar clearly does. Psychopaths (or sociopaths if you prefer) don't have those interpersonal feelings most people do (love, hate, etc.) and I think it's pretty obvious Belkar is enjoying this.

I'm starting to agree with the people not taking sides...it's much more fun to sit back and watch. ;D

Hawkeye

2006-01-23, 05:11 PM

Wow evileeyore, I thought that Terry Pratchett was a purely British institution. Apparently it's international in some parts.

EDIT Vimes: LG definitely

themob212

2006-01-23, 05:14 PM

Wow evileeyore, I thought that Terry Pratchett was a purely British institution. Apparently it's international in some parts.

EDIT Vimes: LG definitely

Dunno he has been known to ignore those in charge of the Law in times. Guards Guards but then i guess thats the point that he obays the law not the authorites.

Malastare

2006-01-23, 05:15 PM

Hawkeye

2006-01-23, 05:19 PM

Dunno he has been known to ignore those in charge of the Law in times. Guards Guards but then i guess thats the point that he obays the law not the authorites.

I'm gonna take a case from a recent book (nightwatch), although Vimes wants to kill the main antagonist, Carcer, he has the opportunity to do this, but he doesn't. Instead he arrests him and puts him to trial, where in the end he was probably hung.

themob212

2006-01-23, 05:21 PM

Its true but he does disobay the athorites a great deal

GeekDaddy

2006-01-23, 05:23 PM

The Miko/Belkar was simply a plot device to remove Belkar from the trial arena (perhaps to have him comically burst in at the most inopportune moment).

As for Belkar's over-the-top pseudo sociopathic tendancies? I think he's just compensating for... something.

That being said, it would be hilarious for Miko to Lay Hands on herself, engage Belkar in a massive brawl only to be seen in the last panel making out. Perhaps have the rest of the OOTS group (now exhonorated from the trial) walk in to find them en flagrante dilecto.

Riot!

Blekar and Miko in a Trashy Romance Novel bodice-ripper pose.

:D :D :D

evileeyore

2006-01-23, 05:29 PM

Vimes: LG. he has moments of doubt, moments of weakness, and moments when the easy way is not th eLaw or Good, but in the end he holds to his convictions. he is the truest definition of Lawful Good Smart I can think of. Could he keep a Palain's Code? Hell no. He lies, he allows his guards their occasional lapses (like theft, lying, and cheating), and certianly has no problems disobeying the Authority when he thinks they are in the Wrong (not Evil, just wrong).

But Vimes is very much LG.

Carrot on the other LG hand... is very much a Paladin, just without the all the special abilities.

[EDIT]
uh... sorry, back to the comic:

I very much doubt we'll see Belkar and Miko in flagrante delecto. Not quite the Giant's style.

Besides I agree, I think this is where the Giant makes his move to off the little guy.

RebelRogue

2006-01-23, 05:30 PM

Ahh, sorry, I had a miko-like sarcasm miss there.
No problem. In retrospect the use of the word "seriously" was probably quite misleading...

GeekDaddy

2006-01-23, 05:59 PM

I very much doubt we'll see Belkar and Miko in flagrante delecto. Not quite the Giant's style.

Oh, yes. Why whatever was I thinking! Rich would never EVER show two OoTS characters in a compromising position

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=159

Or even hint at such a thing!

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=79

i.jason

2006-01-23, 06:04 PM

I'd put Vimes in as LG, especially given his acceptance of the Assassin's guild's continuous attempts on his life as "just business."

As for LG:Smart, I'd nominate Sparhawk.

Amalthea

2006-01-23, 06:27 PM

All very righteous. All very proper. Belkar was not mistreated, he was fed the same as all other prisoners, he was simply placed apart from his comrades.
Somewhat to his comrades relief, I might add.

Tycho_Bloodbeard

2006-01-23, 06:29 PM

Belkar isn't a psychopath because he is perfectly aware that what he is doing is against the broader moral code. A psychopath would not have cared about Miko's detect evil since from his point of view everything bad he had done would have been justifiable and right. Belkar indulges in pointlessly evil acts for his own self-gratification, not because he has a mental problem.

I believe your notion of psychopathy is a bit misguided.. Here's Wikipedia's definition

Literally meaning mental illness, psychopathy is defined in psychiatry as a personality disorder characterised by lack of empathy or conscience, poor impulse control and manipulative behaviors.

Maybe now a legal definition:

Washington State Legislature defines a "Psychopathic personality" to mean "the existence in any person of such hereditary, congenital or acquired condition affecting the emotional or volitional rather than the intellectual field and manifested by anomalies of such character as to render satisfactory social adjustment of such person difficult or impossible".

Psycopaths might feel justified to a certain extent victimizing others, but it doesn't mean they are stupid to the point that they believe they won't receive retribution - hence,they often hide the facts and attempt to squeeze out of the blame (and victimize again). If you don't consider objectifying another human being to the point of possesing it to the point of destruction as an illness/disease, what is it then?

LaValle

2006-01-23, 06:38 PM

Regarding Pratchett characters:

1. Rincewind is deffinately of the "good" persuausion. He IS a champion coward that turned fear into an art, but when it does not put him in danger he shows kindness, like when he put a fish that strived to evolve back into the water in "The Science of Discworld".
2. Vimes is LG, with Lawfull being a defining part of his character. He may not be the "sharpest knife in the drawer but he's straight as an arrow" as said in "THUD!"

coming back to the oots theme, I really hope that Belkar never meets anyone like Vimes, because I want him to live :P BTW, is anyone else wondering whats up with Redcloac and Xykon? When are they finnaly going to do something with the hobgoblin army? I mean come on, they've had time to organize ...

Lyc

2006-01-23, 06:40 PM

Vimes: LG.
Carrot on the other LG hand... is very much a Paladin, just without the all the special abilities.
I'll agree with the Vimes and Carrot assessment. Sgt Colon and Nobby would probably be NG as they tend to be a lot more flexible with laws despite being generally 'good at heart'.

Out of curiosity though, what would you rate the patrician as? Personally I would say LN despite is habit of the ocassional bit of tortue or necessary "inhuming" (though the mimes deserve it).

GeekDaddy

2006-01-23, 06:47 PM

BTW, is anyone else wondering whats up with Redcloac and Xykon? When are they finnaly going to do something with the hobgoblin army? I mean come on, they've had time to organize ...

What, you don't think it's a coincidence that Xykon and Co. are in the Southern Mountains and TOoTS are in the Southerns LANDS, now do you?

The question is, if/when Belkar comes upon a city filled with 86 legions of Hobgoblins (and their assumed families) will HE have an evilgasm?

kerberos

2006-01-23, 06:57 PM

And if some people no longer or never did find Belkar funny and/or cool?

No problem, we'll just hunt them down, harvest their kidneys and use the money we gain from selling their organs on the black market to fund Belkar-conventions.

Sebastian

2006-01-23, 07:05 PM

The fabric of the universe is not a matter of abstract theological speculation.

Not to be contrary on every point but I dare to say that the fabric of the universe is a matter of abstract speculation, even if philosofical more than theological, but theological, too

Actually it would be fun see Elan asking "what is this Fabric of the universe that all you are talking about, and see them try to give an answer "is eee, well, you know, stuff" "yes! Yes, very, very important stuff and fragile, too" "yes. Very fragile and you weakened it"

"Oh, OK" ???

Reborn

2006-01-23, 07:07 PM

Vimes isn't necessarily LG. He does good, but the law is just a job. He will break the rules if he needs to do good. Captain Carrot is LG, but he is also very naive. I would agree that heros are CG by job description, but in general I find the d&d alignments too constricting.

Belkar is the man. He may be small (although I prefer to think of him as "fun-sized"), he may have weapon shrinkage, but he is in the OotS, and it's pay-back time!

Miko, burn. Burn, burn, and burn some more. You have meddled with our affairs for the last time. Lord Shojo - at an end your rule is.

Jefepato

2006-01-23, 07:07 PM

To be fair, I wouldn't categorize Rincewind as annoyingly good.

Just annoying.

I mean, c'mon - Rincewind is motivated PURELY by self interest and survival.

Debatable. Rincewind has stepped up once or twice, when the chips were down and he could have run instead.

evileeyore

2006-01-23, 07:07 PM

Oh, yes. Why whatever was I thinking! Rich would never EVER show two OoTS characters in a compromising position

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=159

Or even hint at such a thing!

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=79Ahem. So what?

I affirm it is not in the Giant's style to have two enemies, that are currently going about the task of killing each other, fall into each other's arms and bump uglies.

Durkon and Helgya were not prescisely enemies. Helgya was along with Nale for her own ends, and felt bad about Durkon being level drained. As well she actually rescued him, then proceeded to become more friendly before they just fell into bed.

Also I'm not sure how the Giant feels about cross species mating, aside from Elves and Humans adn Orcs and Humans. But D&D does not seem to find it appropriate, hence the lack of Half-Halflings and Half-Dwarves. So it may be a racial thing, or it may be a "not-compatible bits" thing.

evileeyore

2006-01-23, 07:10 PM

Miko, burn. Burn, burn, and burn some more. You have meddled with our affairs for the last time. Lord Shojo - at an end your rule is.
Let me guess, Xykon, Dark Lord of the Liche, just offered to make you his right hand man and save your pregnant girlfriends life if you turn against the Sapphire Guard?

Those poor, poor, first level Paladins... they never had a chance...

Ilaun_Undil

2006-01-23, 07:19 PM

I'll guess a truely evil act would be if Belkar brings out the marshmellows. Funny, but still a little disturbing. And what is Xykon doing.

Reborn

2006-01-23, 07:23 PM

Debatable. Rincewind has stepped up once or twice, when the chips were down and he could have run instead.

Agreed. For example, with the sorcerer, and in the dungeon dimensions afterwards, where he tries to save the world with a sock-full of sand. Cool moment.

Reborn

2006-01-23, 07:24 PM

Let me guess, Xykon, Dark Lord of the Liche, just offered to make you his right hand man and save your pregnant girlfriends life if you turn against the Sapphire Guard?

Those poor, poor, first level Paladins... they never had a chance...

First level Paladin? My powers have doubled since the last time we met.

dwarf

2006-01-23, 07:35 PM

But D&D does not seem to find it appropriate, hence the lack of Half-Halflings and Half-Dwarves.

actually half-dwarves are quite popular.... according to 2nd ed, human-dwarf hybrids were called Muls on Athas, world of Dark Sun and, oddly, Gully Dwarves on Krynn.

why half-dwarf half-human hybrids should turn out so vastly different on differing worlds, i guess only the Gods know ;)

-=Bard of the Dwarves=-

aaronbourque

2006-01-23, 07:39 PM

No problem, we'll just hunt them down, harvest their kidneys and use the money we gain from selling their organs on the black market to fund Belkar-conventions.
. . .

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; the exact problem I have with the Anti-Mikoers

aaronbourque

2006-01-23, 07:45 PM

Not to be contrary on every point but I dare to say that the fabric of the universe is a matter of abstract speculation
It's not a matter of abstract anything.

Just because you seem to have difficulty imagining it doesn't mean others do.

Actually it would be fun see Elan asking "what is this Fabric of the universe that all you are talking about, and see them try to give an answer "is eee, well, you know, stuff" "yes! Yes, very, very important stuff and fragile, too" "yes. Very fragile and you weakened it"

"Oh, OK" ???

A much simpler way to go about it would be with an analogy:

Imagine a circular table with five legs. Now imagine two of those legs have been destroyed. Sure, a tripod is the simplest stable support construction, but that just means there's only one more leg left before we start to actually feel the effects. You, The Order of The Stick, are charged with destoying one of those legs, the Redmountain Gate.

And proceed from there.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

silvadel

2006-01-23, 07:46 PM

Probably dont have to spoiler it out but better safe than sorry.

I think it would be funny to see either one of them reincarnated ...

Miko the halfling has a nice ring....

MReav

2006-01-23, 07:52 PM

Gully Dwarves on Krynn.

-=Bard of the Dwarves=-

I believe Muls are sterile (~mules) and are the result of magical intervention, while Gully-Dwarves are Gnome-Dwarf Hybrids.

I'm curious as to whatever mates with halflings. While humans I'm sure would rarely mate with Halflings, if only for the disturbing pedophilia accusations, but I can see elves doing it with them

Reborn

2006-01-23, 07:54 PM

JeffreyToTheMax

2006-01-23, 08:22 PM

Where's the comic? :'( it's 23.54 and I have to go to bed soon. Please don't make me wait till tomorrow!!! PLEASE. I'm begging you! I bought one of your t-shirts, giant! I bet you got a nice percentage from that. So please post the comic! :'(
Considering the Giant was (still is?) at a convention in Virginia (being fairly far from New York), he will probably not be able to post a new comic until at least tomorrow. But that's just a guess, of course.

Daerthax

2006-01-23, 08:23 PM

In a hurry to see a torched Miko?

Reborn

2006-01-23, 08:26 PM

Absolutely. And yes, I agree about the convention, it was more of a forlorn hope than anything else.

Devoured_Dude

2006-01-23, 08:31 PM

I'm curious as to whatever mates with halflings. While humans I'm sure would rarely mate with Halflings, if only for the disturbing pedophilia accusations, but I can see elves doing it with them

"No boom-boom with elven soul brotha! Elven soul brotha too boo-coo. Too boo-coo!"

--An actual "Full Metal Jacket" homage overheard while roleplaying at a halfling brothel.

The_Werebear

2006-01-23, 08:34 PM

So, I have a question for all of you people who have a problem with Miko being lit on fire simply because she was lit on fire.

Did any of you have a problem with Monty Python's quest for the Holy Grail?

Severed limbs...check
Flung off bridges...check
Impalement...check
Decapitation Via Bunny...check

OotS is on the same scale. It is a comic of a make believe game.

Now here is the really hard one. Did any of you have a problem with Sin City? or Pulp Fiction?

Sebastian

2006-01-23, 08:38 PM

It's not a matter of abstract anything.

Just because you seem to have difficulty imagining it doesn't mean others do.

Well, it is abstract.

A much simpler way to go about it would be with an analogy:

Imagine a circular table with five legs. Now imagine two of those legs have been destroyed. Sure, a tripod is the simplest stable support construction, but that just means there's only one more leg left before we start to actually feel the effects. You, The Order of The Stick, are charged with destoying one of those legs, the Redmountain Gate.

And proceed from there.

Are you sure about it? Or are you just speculating.

Beside that say what it does, not what it is, leaving its nature in the realm of the abstract speculations

Hawkeye

2006-01-23, 08:39 PM

agree with you fully werebear.
I've already put my two pence in there, so I'm not going to add further.

Hyrael

2006-01-23, 08:39 PM

Wow evileeyore, I thought that Terry Pratchett was a purely British institution. Apparently it's international in some parts.

EDIT Vimes: LG definitely

Nope, its a little more widespread than that, though its not as popular across the pond as i would like. the brain-dead, Hummer-driving, over-eating bumpkins over here really dont seem to appreciate good humor. Hell, Im not sure people over here actualy read at all anymore, they just watch DVDs on thier fancy computers and flatscreen plasma TVs. If it doesnt have explosions, the 'F word', or multiple sex scenes in it, they just arent interested.

As an american, sometimes i feel really ashamed of my country.

Vimes is LG. There are many things he just WILL NOT do. I can see arguments fo NG, or even LN, but they are flimsy at best. He is a great example of how someone can be Lawful Good without being Lawful Stupid.

Rincewind: True Neutral. He isnt very chaotic, and seems mostly self-serving. remember when he was just going to abandon the Red Army (the kids, not the terra cotta robots)?

The Lady Auneredra

2006-01-23, 08:50 PM

DarkLadyOfTheSith

2006-01-23, 08:56 PM

Considering the Giant was (still is?) at a convention in Virginia (being fairly far from New York), he will probably not be able to post a new comic until at least tomorrow. But that's just a guess, of course.

Are you sure he's not just curious as to how far and long the Belkar-Miko debate will go on and is just delaying posting out of a sadistic curiosity? ;)

chaunuk

2006-01-23, 09:02 PM

i agre with aunerdra and im an aussie :P

Scion_of_the_Light

2006-01-23, 09:03 PM

Hyreal, is it?
Oh, GIVE ME A BREAK.
You're SO stereo-typing Americans, even when you ARE one. I think I see a Hummer once every, like, seven or eight months, and I live in a fairly upclass town. I had to fight to score my Literature class as an elective, and I love Maya Angelou books. We'd have to mortgage the house to afford a plasma screen. My friends and I went to go see "Brokeback Mountain", and not for the gayness or sex. Reality check, maybe you should target your critisim a little bit more narrowly.

You've obviously never lived in San Diego....

Darn it, this thread has repeated itself at least three times by now. It is fairly simple to see that the pro-Belkar people (and the many who suddenly jumped onto their bandwagon), and the pro-Miko people just cannot agree. Let's not waste any more bandwidth on such unnecessary discussions.

Hawkeye

2006-01-23, 09:04 PM

nightfire8199

2006-01-23, 09:07 PM

hmmmm... does anyone know when new comic will be up?

evileeyore

2006-01-23, 09:15 PM

I bow to you and your breathen. I would not have thought that any american would appreciate the dry and british-like humour in the diskworld books, apparently I am mistaken.
If you come across to this side of the pond I would buy you a pint :)
I will admit that some of us are abit off. However most gamers and intellectuals tend to be avid readers, and I see many gamers and intellectuals (and the rare crssbreed Hlaf-Gamer/Half-Intellectual, its a +3 ECL) on this baord, so i doubt we are all that uncommon here...

I'm perhaps one the more anomalous in that I know Terry Prachett wrote a sketch for one episode of Monty Python's Flying Circus... and I really don't like that many anime shows... and I'm a wargamer, but not a Die-Hard One Game Only Wargamer... and I prefer Amber as a system, but think GURPS is the best... and I hate D&D (but still play it)...

... and I love Miko!

aaronbourque

2006-01-23, 09:15 PM

So, I have a question for all of you people who have a problem with Miko being lit on fire simply because she was lit on fire.

Did any of you have a problem with Monty Python's quest for the Holy Grail?
Holy shnikeys. Yes, it seems, that people values are completely effin' warped when if comes to RPGs.

The dismemberment and violence of Monty Python and the Holy Grail was completely farcical.

I mean, come on: "It's only a flesh wound!"? A carnivorous rabbit? That violence was all done to be out of proportion and ridiculous. It was too ridiculous to be taken seriously. Nobody in that movie actually seemed to react to pain realistically, except when it was to sell a gag. (nobody thinks a death bunny is credible until it kills someone).

Those who have a problem with Miko being set on fire obviously do not take it as ridiculous, and the reason is faily self-evident: in OoTS, characters who feel pain FEEL PAIN, it hurts them. Even when it's minor it doesn't "exactly tickle, sister!"

God!

Now here is the really hard one. Did any of you have a problem with Sin City? or Pulp Fiction?
Again, both were done out of proportion, but they were done that way to serve a different purpose. They were done to showcase how depraved either Basin City itself was, or the characters in L.A. were. In Pulp Fiction, these are all mean, nasty dudes, and they show how mean and nasty they can be. In Sin City these are nasty people, too, but they are nasty as a reaction to the nasty world they live in. Anything less, and they would be broken.

Again, not so much apples and oranges, but apples and frozen rocket fuel ice sculptures in the shape of alien sex acts.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

aaronbourque

2006-01-23, 09:20 PM

Well, it is abstract.
Reality is abstract.

Yes.

Of course.

Are you sure about it? Or are you just speculating.
Fine. I'm speculating. I'm not basing my arguments on anything like established role-playing information.

At.

All.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

aaronbourque

2006-01-23, 09:22 PM

Hyreal, is it?
Oh, GIVE ME A BREAK.
You're SO stereo-typing Americans, even when you ARE one.
How else can he justify his self-loathing?

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

Ilaun_Undil

2006-01-23, 09:30 PM

not to be rude, but I was just wondering are you planning to continue to update at like 8 or 9 o clock at night, or are you going to try and get back to morning. either way doesn't matter to me, just so long as I get my OOTS!! :)

mastroyo

2006-01-23, 09:32 PM

Have you never heard of the problems in generalizating an argument?
I am german. I live in Munich. It's 1935. Therefore I am a Pangermanic Antisemit Nazi.
I come from Colombia. I am wearing a white suit. I have dark skin. Therefore all Colombians are Drugdealers.
Spaniers conquered south-america. English colonized the US & Australia. Therefore, if south-america had been colonized by enligh pilgrims, it would be developed.

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.
*** hoc, ergo propter hoc.

After this, therefore because of this.
With this, therefore because of this.

I see all these postures in both arguments...

Now, I am censurating myself, first because it's not the place to talk about this. Second, beacuse the new comic will be up soon. Third, because it's already up.... and nobody will care.

Edit: No, it's not up. Sorry for that, and for the lack of elocuency. After all, english is not close to native for me.

Hawkeye

2006-01-23, 09:40 PM

Argh, I need my monday OOTS fix!

Athanatos

2006-01-23, 09:40 PM

Jareth

2006-01-23, 09:42 PM

The dismemberment and violence of Monty Python and the Holy Grail was completely farcical.

I mean, come on: "It's only a flesh wound!"? A carnivorous rabbit? That violence was all done to be out of proportion and ridiculous. It was too ridiculous to be taken seriously. Nobody in that movie actually seemed to react to pain realistically, except when it was to sell a gag. (nobody thinks a death bunny is credible until it kills someone).

Those who have a problem with Miko being set on fire obviously do not take it as ridiculous, and the reason is faily self-evident: in OoTS, characters who feel pain FEEL PAIN, it hurts them. Even when it's minor it doesn't "exactly tickle, sister!"

No offense meant, but I have to point out a flaw in this argument. It's based on the premise that the violence and pain in OoTS is not farcical; however, I think that the Giant has made it clear from the earliest of strips that pain and violence in OoTS IS a laughing matter.

Just take a look here:
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=6

Elan sings about his wounds, removes various internal bits and his only reaction appears to be a mild case of punch-drunkeness.

I'm not saying that people don't have a right to take Miko's burning to heart on a personal level for personal reasons, but I don't think that its fair to generalize about people's overall values based on their reaction to this one strip/story arc.

Realistically, D&D and other Roleplaying systems feature a high violence content - a fact which brings a lot of criticism from numerous groups. However, I've always found the saving grace to be that such violence can be presented in a humorous and less-serious context. Of course, that's just my $0.02.

On a completely unrelated side-note: Highly flammable liquers can actually cause little to no real damage in real life in the case of unfortunate accidents. Consider this from the point of view of highly personal experience with flaming Sambuca. ;)

WCH

2006-01-23, 09:48 PM

Stop being so blasted melodramatic. It's nonmagical fire, it deals a mere 1d6 damage per round.

Geez.

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=243

The intelligence of some of the posters in this forum makes me fear for humanity.

On the topic of lighting people on fire in media, anyone seen Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels?

"Rory? Yeah I know Rory. He's not to be underestimated, you've got to look past the hair and the cute, cuddly thing - it's all a deceptive facade. A few nights ago Rory's Roger iron's rusted, so he's gone to the local battle-cruiser to catch the end of his footer. Nobody is watching the custard so he turns the channel over. A fat man's north opens and he wanders over and turns the Liza over. 'Now **** off and watch it somewhere else.' Rory knows claret is imminent, but he doesn't want to miss the end of the game; so, calm as a coma, he stands and picks up a fire extinguisher and he walks straight past the jam rolls who are ready for action, then he plonks it outside the entrance. He then orders an Aristotle of the most ping pong tiddly in the nuclear sub and switches back to his footer. 'That's ****ing it,' says the guy. 'That's ****ing what' says Rory. Rory gobs out a mouthful of booze covering fatty; he then flicks a flaming match into his bird's nest and the man's lit up like a leaky gas pipe. Rory, unfazed, turned back to his game. His team's won too. Four-nil."

mec

2006-01-23, 09:50 PM

Yay, it's Monday! Yay!

(Ever thought you would say that?)

My guess is, the more fun Rich is having at Marscon, the later the comic will be. So I'm hoping that the strip comes out sometime around Tuesday afternoon. Rich deserves a good time!

aaronbourque

2006-01-23, 09:52 PM

No offense meant, but I have to point out a flaw in this argument. It's based on the premise that the violence and pain in OoTS is not farcical; however, I think that the Giant has made it clear from the earliest of strips that pain and violence in OoTS IS a laughing matter.

Firstly, yes there is an aspect of that in OoTS, this is primarily a humor comic with grand dramatic epicness. But it is usually directed towards the "villians" and such, unless Durkon the walking band-aid is around.

Secondly, the scope of the comic has changed over time. While the emphasis is still on humor, you cannot deny the creeping grand dramatic epicness that has changed--particularly the Order--caricatures into characters. As a result, those types of gags have become less and less common.

Maybe not because the Giant no longer finds them funny and could be planning more in the future, but because the demands of characterization and plot push them aside.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

aaronbourque

2006-01-23, 09:57 PM

Stop being so blasted melodramatic.
Who are you talking to? Context is useful, y'see.

On the topic of lighting people on fire in media, anyone seen Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels?
Yes. Rory is a villain, even by the standards of this noir-comic film. The story of Rory Roger lighting a guy on fire over which programs to watch at a pub is meant to highlight his villainy.

Apples and Oranges? No. Apples and barbecued pancakes.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

Deuce

2006-01-23, 10:04 PM

Who are you talking to? Context is useful, y'see.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

Wouldn't really need to be talking to anyone, as it's part of a word-for-word quote from this web comic I like to read, where monsters and people get killed, organs may or may not be harvested and slavery is a viable option - and I still think it's all prety funny. It's web-toon ethics, not real world ethics.

Apples to Oranges?

No, more like Apples to Burning Paladins

(Which I'm thinking should be a Sake shot with a sheen of Bacardi 151 on the top, lite the rum, blow it out and send it down ;) )

Hawkeye

2006-01-23, 10:07 PM

Aaron, the guy's name is rory breaker. rogers iron rusted is cockney slang for his TV's broken

Mattaeu

2006-01-23, 10:10 PM

...yes there is an aspect of that in OoTS, this is primarily a humor comic with grand dramatic epicness.and so by them developing within the comic, they are becoming not farcical?

i'm lost there.

i know i don't believe that fiction is real...so....comics, while they can acquire depth, are comics.

The_Weirdo

2006-01-23, 10:32 PM

What the anti-Miko people (way I see it) hate about her and don't hate about Belkar: Belkar's not a hypocrite. We all KNOW Belkar's alignment, he ACTS and is CLEAR and CALLOUS about it. He is CE, people know he's CE and he acts CE. Miko doesn't act the LG she was supposed to be. She refers to all the OOTS (including, yes, Durkan) as honorless dogs. She berates Haley for a TN, NOT evil, behavior (wanting to get her stuff out of danger) and then rubs in her face when she already feels the impact of a loss. Belkar IS Chaotic Evil, yes. But he never claimed nor acted in any other way. Miko is NOT LG. Other paladins dislike her behavior. PALADINS. Miko claims to be LG, yet she acts like a GESTAPO officer. This is what the anti-miko people dislike. We don't dislike Belkar because, repulsive though he may be, he's true to himself. Miko isn't.

The_Werebear

2006-01-23, 10:34 PM

Holy shnikeys. Yes, it seems, that people values are completely effin' warped when if comes to RPGs.

The dismemberment and violence of Monty Python and the Holy Grail was completely farcical.

I mean, come on: "It's only a flesh wound!"? A carnivorous rabbit? That violence was all done to be out of proportion and ridiculous. It was too ridiculous to be taken seriously. Nobody in that movie actually seemed to react to pain realistically, except when it was to sell a gag. (nobody thinks a death bunny is credible until it kills someone).

Those who have a problem with Miko being set on fire obviously do not take it as ridiculous, and the reason is faily self-evident: in OoTS, characters who feel pain FEEL PAIN, it hurts them. Even when it's minor it doesn't "exactly tickle, sister!"

God!

Again, both were done out of proportion, but they were done that way to serve a different purpose. They were done to showcase how depraved either Basin City itself was, or the characters in L.A. were. In Pulp Fiction, these are all mean, nasty dudes, and they show how mean and nasty they can be. In Sin City these are nasty people, too, but they are nasty as a reaction to the nasty world they live in. Anything less, and they would be broken.

Again, not so much apples and oranges, but apples and frozen rocket fuel ice sculptures in the shape of alien sex acts.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

No. You are completely and utterly wrong.

"It's only a flesh wound" and "It didn't exactly tickle" are just about exactly on par, especially since Roy said it with an annoyed expresion, not a pained one. It was said once before that the AARRGHH is of Frustration, not pain. If it was meant to show pain, it would be AIIIEEEE or OWWW or THE AGONY.

Have you considered that the fire is meant to show what a mean, nasty, tricky person Belkar is? And since we have already gone over the fact that sake wouldn't burn in a fireball like that, the whole thing is overdone in a manner near identical to Sin City or Pulp Fiction. Heck, it is done in a manner near identical to a Loony Toons cartoon, where you can be shot in the face and simply be blackened, or have an anvil dropped on you and only have a bump and see stars. Since when was the last scrape you got a "#", or the last major gash you got a straight line that didn't bleed?

This is apples to apples.

aaronbourque

2006-01-23, 10:48 PM

No. You are completely and utterly wrong.
Then the realities we live in are completely separate.

"It's only a flesh wound" and "It didn't exactly tickle" are just about exactly on par, especially since Roy said it with an annoyed expresion, not a pained one.
. . .

Now I know you're not serious.

He's scratched up and cut, and when Miko says that her Smite Evil had no effect, Roy angrily corrects her.

This is not the same at all as the black knight in Grail.

Have you considered that the fire is meant to show what a mean, nasty, tricky person Belkar is?
We already know.

And since we have already gone over the fact that sake wouldn't burn in a fireball like that, the whole thing is overdone in a manner near identical to Sin City or Pulp Fiction.
Or any other action movie explosion or conflagration.

Heck, it is done in a manner near identical to a Loony Toons cartoon, where you can be shot in the face and simply be blackened, or have an anvil dropped on you and only have a bump and see stars.
We'll know when the next Miko/Belkar comic goes up, but the pacing and staging of comic #270 does not give me that impression.

This is apples to apples.
The very fact that you feel you need to state that disinclines me to believe it.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

Tycho_Bloodbeard

2006-01-23, 10:58 PM

Have you considered that the fire is meant to show what a mean, nasty, tricky person Belkar is? And since we have already gone over the fact that sake wouldn't burn in a fireball like that, the whole thing is overdone in a manner near identical to Sin City or Pulp Fiction. Heck, it is done in a manner near identical to a Loony Toons cartoon, where you can be shot in the face and simply be blackened, or have an anvil dropped on you and only have a bump and see stars. Since when was the last scrape you got a "#", or the last major gash you got a straight line that didn't bleed?

This is apples to apples.

Couldn't have said it better - in the context of debate, you have my vote, good Werebear. I hadn't myself realized when the OOTS became a comic vérité . Maybe because it didn't.

And you didn't even need to multiple-post continuously to establish your point!

Tycho

aaronbourque

2006-01-23, 11:02 PM

Couldn't have said it better - in the context of debate, you have my vote, good Werebear. I hadn't myself realized when the OOTS became a comic vérité . Maybe because it didn't.

And you didn't even need to multiple-post continuously to establish your point!

Tycho

**** it.

I give up.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

Guancyto

2006-01-23, 11:06 PM

There is one other place where an "Aaargh!" has been used in OOTS. It was (arguably) a heck of a lot more gruesome and yet it was extremely funny.

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=20

...I don't, however, feel it would be funny to use the same spell on Miko. So interpret that however you wish.

Edit: Also, Wearbear? Tycho? Exactly right. Thank you.

Matuse

2006-01-23, 11:26 PM

evileeyore

2006-01-23, 11:27 PM

Wow. you guys made poor old aaron explode...

Hehe...

Tharr

2006-01-23, 11:28 PM

Hope the new comic shows a burning smoke alert.

theKOT

2006-01-23, 11:35 PM

Wow. you guys made poor old aaron explode...

Hehe...
Is this the end of the endless reiteration in this thread?!?!? Say it ain't so!!!! :'(
[edit] hehe, end of the endless.....

Scion_of_the_Light

2006-01-23, 11:41 PM

Wow. you guys made poor old aaron explode...

Hehe...

I was wondering why he was suddenly a 'guest'.

Wow...the intense feelings on this board. Damn...it's near critical mass. Hopefully this war is burned out. I hope. I definitly think this is the reaction of all the debates on this board exploding at once. Actually, I kind of hope that the next comic is rather lighthearted, if not just to let the board simmer down.

rosebud

2006-01-23, 11:43 PM

I think the Giant is punishing us for getting so worked up over #270.Nah, I'd rate it as amusement. "Hmmm. I wonder how loooooooooooong that thread I've stopped reading will go before I have to post a new comic?"

nightfire8199

2006-01-23, 11:44 PM

LOL :D

rosebud

2006-01-23, 11:45 PM

It may be evil to fight and *willingly* fail. Which you are conceivably doing if you don't leverage every advantage.That's not willingly. That's fiighting with honor. Those who ascribe to a code follow it. If they are defeated, they will still receive their due in heaven. If they are dishonorable, no temporary glory can undo that stain.

Yes, but it may be a greater evil to allow evil to have it's way unchecked.You're talking about Good characters who are not paladins. We're discussing a paladin here.

And as a forseeable consequence of your actions, you would hold some responsibility. Otherwise it's like saying that nicaraguan death squads are evil but the people who equip and fund them aren't.There's a difference between equiping someone and fighting them with great care, being defeated, and having your remaining undestroyed conventional equipment taken and used. That's not the same as willfuly equiping them.

Only if the result was reasonably forseeable as a consequence of her deeds, and the forseeable consequences of alternatives were not worse.That wasn't what the other person argued. And not something I happened to agree with. But the argument was that if a wrong action followed as a consequence of your actions, you are responsible for that action. That's broken. I used the example of the dead guard to show why it was broken. Now you're backpedaling from that and trying to limit it to just knowing. Well, if that's the case, Elan had no clue that destroying the castle would harm the fabric of reality. Case dismissed. :)

Tactically? I can't say I spotted them, but no-one's infallible.Miko's mission went poorly. She and others were almost needlessly killed. Had she had better diplomacy and people skills, it could have gone smoothly. That's a tactical error. Don't create fights you don't need to fight and enemies you need not have. It doesn't matter why she might have done something or justified it; it was still the case that things went poorly due to her faults and failure to listen and respect others.

It's possible that bringing along low-level underlings would simply result in nasty stabbity death all too soon for the newblings, and higher-level associates were otherwise occupied.I'd much prefer to hear that The Story Required It than something silly like that. A competent commander can deploy troops effectively while still taking the dangerous part of the battle if that's an issue. There could have been more wounded, for example, and backup could have provided aid while she continued pursuit.

Of course they shouldn't. But they shouldn't let innocents die needlessly for the sake of their honour code either. Failing to serve the greater good because you believe it will stain your personal moral record is, ultimately, a selfish decision.Expediency can cause more harm in the long term. Evil raider terrorizing the towns, taking a hostage, and demanding exorbitant tribute? Do you could give it, and cause more hostages long-term. Or you could attack and sustain casualties in the short term?

Scion_of_the_Light

2006-01-23, 11:46 PM

I would personally feel flattered that my creation is being felt with so much emotion by so many people.

Kudos, Mr. Burlew! You are a genius!

evileeyore

2006-01-23, 11:51 PM

Nah, I'd rate it as amusement. "Hmmm. I wonder how loooooooooooong that thread I've stopped reading will go before I have to post a new comic?"
Come on guys! We're almost to 50 pages...

Can we break the thread?

Tune in next post to find the answer to this and other things....

The_Werebear

2006-01-23, 11:52 PM

Sheesh... I didn't mean to chase Aaron off. It is just a debate over an internet comic.

Sorry you took it so harsh.

theKOT

2006-01-24, 12:00 AM

Sheesh... I didn't mean to chase Aaron off. It is just a debate over an internet comic.

Sorry you took it so harsh.

I think your avatar freaked him out. I know it's given me the jibblies.... here they come again: the jibbly-jibblies.

evileeyore

2006-01-24, 12:03 AM

Sheesh... I didn't mean to chase Aaron off. It is just a debate over an internet comic.

Sorry you took it so harsh.
I think Tycho broke him. But then Tycho was always my favorite party alchemist. You know he once turned his nose into gold?

PhoeKun

2006-01-24, 12:08 AM

I think Tycho broke him. But then Tycho was always my favorite party alchemist. You know he once turned his nose into gold?

Was that a Tycho Brahe reference?

Classic. In a bizzare, astronomically dorky sense.

Astronomically... there's another one.

Oompha

2006-01-24, 12:21 AM

Yay, it's Monday! Yay!

(My guess is, the more fun Rich is having at Marscon, the later the comic will be. So I'm hoping that the strip comes out sometime around Tuesday afternoon. Rich deserves a good time!

Well MarsCon was Fun, for ME anyway. Got my Two OOTS books Autographed and even got some a Nifty sketch of Thog and a Flumph ;D But I'm betting the comic is late because the Cold that Rich & Co appeared to be coming down with has gotten worse :(

tlelaxue

2006-01-24, 12:33 AM

Bump bump bump! Bump the stickied thread!

Hyrael

2006-01-24, 12:33 AM

Hyreal, is it?
Oh, GIVE ME A BREAK.
You're SO stereo-typing Americans, even when you ARE one. I think I see a Hummer once every, like, seven or eight months, and I live in a fairly upclass town. I had to fight to score my Literature class as an elective, and I love Maya Angelou books. We'd have to mortgage the house to afford a plasma screen. My friends and I went to go see "Brokeback Mountain", and not for the gayness or sex. Reality check, maybe you should target your critisim a little bit more narrowly.

I was joking, jeez. I was just venting my frustration at the fact that almost no one in my class is an avid reader, or indeed reads at all. I live in wisconsin, and I see about two hummers a week. I think we live in different areas of the country.

I was intentionaly using steriotypes for humor purposes, but i still maintain that some of then do apply to the people I have to deal with every day. I can barely even talk to some of the people in my school, they have such limited vocabularies due to the fact that the last time they actualy read a book all the way through was in 6th grade (they have actualy admitted to this).

You cant deny that America in general has plenty of flaws

Oznstuff

2006-01-24, 12:33 AM

Nope, its a little more widespread than that, though its not as popular across the pond as i would like. ... Vimes is LG. There are many things he just WILL NOT do. I can see arguments fo NG, or even LN, but they are flimsy at best. He is a great example of how someone can be Lawful Good without being Lawful Stupid.
I know this is off topic, but I have to address the Vimes Allignment Issue. Yes, caps are neccesary! Vimes is a perfect example of the alignment system not working. He is Lawful Good to the point of hurting himself and others around him, until the Law gets in the way of solving the problem, then he goes completely Chaotic (but still Good, with the intent and spirit of Law behind him). If he has to, say, arrest the Army of his country for invading someone else's country (armed assault) in order to keep-the-peace, and incidently save thousands of lives, he will do it, no matter what the personal cost to his career or station in life. Vimes rocks.
And if you don't know who Vimes or Rincewind are, or what the Discworld is, READ A BOOK! ;)

evileeyore

2006-01-24, 12:41 AM

I know this is off topic, but I have to address the Vimes Allignment Issue. Yes, caps are neccesary! Vimes is a perfect example of the alignment system not working. He is Lawful Good to the point of hurting himself and others around him, until the Law gets in the way of solving the problem, then he goes completely Chaotic (but still Good, with the intent and spirit of Law behind him). If he has to, say, arrest the Army of his country for invading someone else's country (armed assault) in order to keep-the-peace, and incidently save thousands of lives, he will do it, no matter what the personal cost to his career or station in life. Vimes rocks.
And if you don't know who Vimes or Rincewind are, or what the Discworld is, READ A BOOK! ;)

Nitpick +1

He remains completely Lawful. Vimes follows a Code. His personal Code. It is stronger than any laws, it is the Law. Thus when laws get in the way of serving the Code, Vimes breaks those laws. But only with reluctance, and only in service to the Code.

By the way, his code is pretty rigid, and upholds the ideals of justice and mercy.

BurntOfferings

2006-01-24, 12:45 AM

I believe Muls are sterile (~mules) and are the result of magical intervention, while Gully-Dwarves are Gnome-Dwarf Hybrids.
Don't know about gully-dwarves, but according to my Monster Manual, derro are human/dwarf hybrids. Muls are also human/dwarf crossbreeds, and are sterile.

I'm curious as to whatever mates with halflings. While humans I'm sure would rarely mate with Halflings, if only for the disturbing pedophilia accusations, but I can see elves doing it with them
Well, judging from Belkar's behavior in the strip and in Origin of the PCs, at least some halflings and some humans aren't adverse to it.

Godhand

2006-01-24, 12:45 AM

I dunno Hyrael, every country has flaws, the main reason Americas flaws are visible to you are A: You live here B: The Media here has free reign on what they say and C: America is a super power so everyone watches us very, very closely. I'm sure if I lived in Switzerland I'd hate all of Switzerlands flaws (although I can't think of any, great mountains and all that)

Now that ive gotten compeltely off topic, does anyone know what happened to Rich? I hear these rumors that he got a cold and he was at a Con. If hes sick/got jetlag then thats cool, I just want to know whats up.

RebelRogue

2006-01-24, 12:53 AM

Wee! 42 pages! Douglas Adams would be ever so proud of us!

rosebud

2006-01-24, 12:55 AM

People keep saying the Belkar is psychotic. I don't understand.Clinically, you are correct. People are using the termi in the colloquial (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=125) "Run, run, run, run away from my psychotic teammate!" sense. :)

She may hate him, it's quite easy to despise Belkar after all, but she didn't torment him.Hmm. That is a good point. She frustrated him and unnerved him, but I guess torment was a bit much. But, he did have to take out a restraining order (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=228). :) Panels 4 and 8 of that strip are so precious. Sad Miko and innocent-style happy Belkar. Shocked Miko and demonically happy Belkar.

Belkar's animosity is impersonal, he would have done it to any paladin.That sounds about right. And, equally so, any paladin would have hated him. :) Thanks for the clarification.

For Belkar fans, I have noticed an odd trend in that some people have started making some fantastically warped arguments (that he is not evil)Oh, I'm cool with that. They'll realize he is eventually.

Of course, there are also many Belkar fans who KNOW and accept that he is depraved and evil and make no excuses for him.They're the ones that scare me. :) I've fully embraced the view that he's one sick evil dude and quite funny in old strips, but I have no major attachment to him or Miko at this point. If both survive, great. If both perish, it'll be sad, but the strip will still last a while. If one perishes, whatever happens, please don't let an unreformed Miko make the rest of our lives a freaking living hell. Um, sorry, there, I seem to have blacked out for a moment. I meant to say, great.

It can get frustrating if you find yourself in the middle of these arguments. But it's hella fun to sit back and watch and see both sides of the argument... :)Muuuhahahahahahahahahah! Yup. I liked both of them, but they both ended up annoying me even though I was still able to laugh at them. The passion of the argument was a bit frustrating, which is partly where my "Miko and Belkar Reader Questions" idea came from. But that was, oh, a thousand or more posts ago. This thread is just crazy. Sometimes there's just a "we need to disagree" point and be done with it. Rather than the "I give up approach." Oh, well.

[Reload] Nope, still no comic. Must read and reply more... :)

Gralamin

2006-01-24, 12:55 AM

rosebud

2006-01-24, 01:03 AM

Oh, yes. Why whatever was I thinking! Rich would never EVER show two OoTS characters in a compromising positionDude, the only way Miko and Belkar will be together will be with a shtlulk (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=56).

mimicgogo

2006-01-24, 01:03 AM

Is The Giant OK?

idksocrates

2006-01-24, 01:06 AM

so this is what oots'ers do when the comic isn't up. jeez, i didn't even try to read through the last 32 pages of thread that popped up since saturday.

theKOT

2006-01-24, 01:10 AM

Rich really needs to start taking better care of himself. I could almost say I haven't had two consectuvie months of oots without an interpruttion. not that i'm complaining.

I wonder why Rich gets sick so often? or injured?
I think it's that the minimal amount of sunlight one gets being a D&Der wears on the body after a while. My diagnosis? A lack of vitamin D. My suggested course of action? writing a brilliant comic every day till he's eighty-one.

Lyc

2006-01-24, 01:10 AM

I wonder why Rich gets sick so often? or injured?
Have a glance at the " book ordering forum (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1104694100 )", and you'll wonder why he hasn't been committed to a padded room in a mental hospital from stress, I'm surprised the odd bout of cold/flu is all there is.

theKOT

2006-01-24, 01:12 AM

so this is what oots'ers do when the comic isn't up. jeez, i didn't even try to read through the last 32 pages of thread that popped up since saturday.

I don't have a problem! Seriously, I skipped a page or two.

Oznstuff

2006-01-24, 01:25 AM

Nitpick +1

He remains completely Lawful. Vimes follows a Code. His personal Code. It is stronger than any laws, it is the Law. Thus when laws get in the way of serving the Code, Vimes breaks those laws. But only with reluctance, and only in service to the Code.

By the way, his code is pretty rigid, and upholds the ideals of justice and mercy.

Exactly! Much better put :) Vimes is LG according to his standards of LG. The fact that taking actions which require him to uphold his standards may, technically, violate some or all of someone else's laws is a minor distraction when he is on the job. Not that he's that blasé about it, but you get the idea.

Gralamin

2006-01-24, 01:29 AM

woah that forum, wow.

One of the biggest problems with america: if you need medicine, or hospital care, it costs you.
In canada most is paid by taxes and the other bit can usually be fixed with a good job.

also lack of vitamen D does nothing to you! I haven't seen the sun in a month! (thats a lie but that one time....)

and I have skiped about 31 pages.

Lady_Orc

2006-01-24, 02:12 AM

Nope, its a little more widespread than that, though its not as popular across the pond as i would like. the brain-dead, Hummer-driving, over-eating bumpkins over here really dont seem to appreciate good humor. Hell, Im not sure people over here actualy read at all anymore, they just watch DVDs on thier fancy computers and flatscreen plasma TVs. If it doesnt have explosions, the 'F word', or multiple sex scenes in it, they just arent interested.

As an american, sometimes i feel really ashamed of my country.

Vimes is LG. There are many things he just WILL NOT do. I can see arguments fo NG, or even LN, but they are flimsy at best. He is a great example of how someone can be Lawful Good without being Lawful Stupid.

Rincewind: True Neutral. He isnt very chaotic, and seems mostly self-serving. remember when he was just going to abandon the Red Army (the kids, not the terra cotta robots)?

I agree that both Vimes and Carrot would in DnD terms be defined as LG, and likable LG at that. Also agree that Rincewind is TN. He's certainly not evil, but I just don't see him as altruistic either.

kerberos

2006-01-24, 02:54 AM

. . .

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; the exact problem I have with the Anti-Mikoers

Your class feature is showing.

Vaarsuvius_Prime

2006-01-24, 03:03 AM

I wish when EST morning we can know what happened.

greatscott

2006-01-24, 03:07 AM

Rich really needs to start taking better care of himself. I could almost say I haven't had two consectuvie months of oots without an interpruttion. not that i'm complaining.

I wonder why Rich gets sick so often? or injured?

I guessed that this one would be delayed. All the furor of 43 pages may be causing a little bit of a rethink if The Giant was planning on killing off someone :)

Probably not but hey I'm having fun lol

JohnnyComeLately

2006-01-24, 03:26 AM

I remember when the comics came out Monday, Wednesday, and Friday mornings, instead of Tuesday morning, Wednesday at 10 pm, and Saturday at 3 am. I remember... ::)

Sc00by

2006-01-24, 03:33 AM

And why exaclty does it matter? OotS is FREE ffs! When you pay for it you can moan about it being late.

I'm sure that there is a good reason why it's not up yet, but I'm also sure that Rich doesn't have to explain himself to any of us.

Oh and 43 pages on 1 strip? (well loosely on 1 strip) You guys need to get out more!

Marlene

2006-01-24, 03:53 AM

Ok, here's some food for thought for all the pro-miko/anti-belkar, pro-belkar/anti-miko, good vs. evil, what makes evil evil, what makes good good ect ect ect crowd out there.

Ever read Villains by Necessity? Good book. It's by Eve Forward. If I didn't know any better, I'd say she wrote it for this particular debate.

For those who have read it, what's your opinion on what makes good good and evil evil? This should be a lively debate :)

rosebud

2006-01-24, 04:01 AM

And what is Xykon doing.When you're dead for forty years, you make what evilgasms you get last as long as possible.

the exact problem I have with the Anti-MikoersA dark sense of humor? It's too bad. A day away from posting keeps the frustrations at bay.

We'd have to mortgage the house to afford a plasma screen.I thought people owned plasma screens because they couldn't afford a house. Of course, maybe that's just the blue states.

It is fairly simple to see that the pro-Belkar people (...) and the pro-Miko people just cannot agree.I disagree. If they just work it out for a few more days, I'm sure they'll reach an agreement. :) Perhaps we should get Lord Banjo to intervene. It brought Haley and Belkar together. Surely He can bring Miko and Belkar together. ;D

hmmmm... does anyone know when new comic will be up?It's already posted here (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?action=display;board=comics;num=1137794640 ;start=0#1). It's really, really long and mostly words with characters on the large side panels, but there's a great punch line at the end. :D

Those who have a problem with Miko being set on fire obviously do not take it as ridiculous, and the reason is faily self-evidentI said (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?action=display;board=comics;num=1137794640 ;start=180#193) this in reply to the "sad about Miko" theme way back on page 13, but recall no reply:

I did, but then I recalled Roy being poisoned 17 times, stung by ants, and impaled. And Elan being impaled by ninjas. And Elan being impaled by his brother. And Elan being set aflame with a maximized fireball. And Belkar getting throttled to the point of turning full red and then getting hit by the same fireball. And Haley getting swallowed by a dragon and vomited onto Belkar. And V getting turned into a lizard and then swallowed by a dragon. And Celia turned into stone. And Durkon (the luckiest) being betrayed and drained.

Think of it as an initiation rite in a world where these things don't have long-term consequences if you survive. Does that make you feel any better? :)

I guess it either didn't make him feel better, he never bothered to read it, or he really just never came to peace with anyone. I'm neutral on the entire matter, but making peace apparently wasn't as appealing as screaming at the ocean. Actually, come to think of it, that reminds me of Miko.

Come on guys! We're almost to 50 pages...Well, we have one less poster. That'll slow things down a bit. ::)

rosebud

2006-01-24, 04:16 AM

what's your opinion on what makes good good and evil evil? This should be a lively debate :)Evil (e'val) n. 1. People asking lively new questions in a thread 43 pages long.

abc.d

2006-01-24, 05:20 AM

OMG WOOT. You show that samurai bitch Belkar. I want to see a Miko shaped hat on your head by next comic.
Hahah, precisely. Cut the bitch down finally, she's soooo annoying!

RBloom0566

2006-01-24, 05:57 AM

With all due respect to Rich and his free web-comic, I am sick of people saying that he is completely free of obligation to his readership.

While the comic is free and is posted generously, do not think that there is no obligation to the fans to maintain it.

Were it not for the dedication of the fan-base, the Order of the Stick would have died a quiet death long ago.

While this is owed to Rich's talent, it is equally owed to his fans. One thing is for sure. Were it not for the popular, grass-roots movement among the gaming community, OOTS would NOT be appearing monthly in Dragon Magazine. THAT, if my opinion, is a direct result of fan loyalty.

So while we may not be paying for the comic, we are certainly putting food on Rich's table so he doesn't have to eat Mac&Cheese five days/week!

The Glyphstone

2006-01-24, 06:11 AM

Technically false, in that if he didn't make a living as a comic writer, he'd go back to whatever it was he did before...graphics designer or something. So Rich is not required or obligated to give us anything. It would be a logical response for us to stop supporting him if the comic stopped being updated, but...we're all mindless fanboys/girls anyways :D.

Oh, and the original point of this post...has anyone bothered to count how many times Godwin's Law has ALREADY been broken in this thread? And not just broken, but smashed, torn to pieces, dismembered, and fed to the monster that guards Xykon's castle?

Daavi_Tues

2006-01-24, 06:17 AM

Oh, and the original point of this post...has anyone bothered to count how many times Godwin's Law has ALREADY been broken in this thread? And not just broken, but smashed, torn to pieces, dismembered, and fed to the monster that guards Xykon's castle?

Who said anything about Nazis?

IRSWalker

2006-01-24, 06:22 AM

I agree that both Vimes and Carrot would in DnD terms be defined as LG, and likable LG at that. Also agree that Rincewind is TN. He's certainly not evil, but I just don't see him as altruistic either.

It's interesting that both are definitely LG, and yet both are almost opposites in so many ways - and enough so that they combine to make an even more effective team. Their differences would be shown through stats (Carrot obviously high Cha, Vimes I would guess Wis + experience), which shows that alignment is not overriding, and should always be roleplayed with an eye on that characters stats.

I wouldn't make Rincewind TN - anyone who's actions are partially directly controlled by The Lady pretty much has to be chaotic. He's CN, and when his life is not too chaotic he veers slightly towards G.

For the true neutrals of the Discworld, I would look to the witches, who are absolutely perfect models of how to play druids. Although they often do good in the world, frequently they are doing this to redress the balance with some evil that has been done. At other times, they see their role as making the decisions that need to be made. Again, the two recurring characters, Granny Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg both acheive the same end, but their differences are clear - Granny has high Wis, Nanny has high Cha.

Nothing to do with the comic - sorry, but a really interesting debate on the role of alignment in role play.

TheFallenOne

2006-01-24, 06:23 AM

I remember when the comics came out Monday, Wednesday, and Friday mornings, instead of Tuesday morning, Wednesday at 10 pm, and Saturday at 3 am. I remember... ::)

And I remember when we got only two strips per week ::) Yeah, I'd sure be happy if the comic was up on time, but I just guess Rich doesn't delay it for some sinister reasons

Hawkeye

2006-01-24, 06:46 AM

Who said anything about Nazis?

I think that (correct me if I'm wrong) Nazi's was used as a perfect example of Godwins Law. Godwins Law is that if a principle is raised, someone counters that with "that may be so, but.." and then goes on to say a negative aspect of this. The classic example is that a leader is good because he improved the economy. The counter to that is "Ok, a leader is good because he improves the economy, but that means that Hitler was good because he imroved Germany's economy."

rosebud

2006-01-24, 06:48 AM

I just guess Rich doesn't delay it for some sinister reasonsI envision the characters battling Rich.

"What?" rages Belkar, "You... YOU want to smite me? Ha! First you have to catch me..."

"By the 12 Gods," shrills Miko,"You're no God. You're not even a demigod. You're not even listed in the manuals. I'll smite Belkar, and I'll smite you, too, if you try to get in my way."

"Aye, if it's all the same to ye two," tones Durkon, "I be wantin' a tall mug of tha fine Dwarven lager. And a fine lawful good dwarven lass, but not too good an not too lawful, if ye know wha I mean."

"I still wish I had a bajillion gold pieces!!" hailed an encrypted Haley.

tyr

2006-01-24, 06:54 AM

Wombat

2006-01-24, 06:54 AM

What a fabulous disaster! :D

Now we've got Nazis, Discworld, self righteous alignment experts, and even a little Order of the Stick thrown in for good measure!

I can't wait to see how things get if something bad actually happens in the strip.

Daavi_Tues

2006-01-24, 06:56 AM

Wombat

2006-01-24, 06:57 AM

Before Paradise there is torment. Switch.

Before torment, there is Paradise.

Rinse, repeat?

Daavi_Tues

2006-01-24, 07:05 AM

Rinse, repeat?

Rins AND repeat.

Hawkeye

2006-01-24, 07:13 AM

Wow, I didn't know Terry Pratchett was so popular. That's cool, the characters are awesome. Every book always seems on the verge of being overwhelmed by all the bizarre but disturbingly realistic people. By the way, if Susan and Vetinari had a staring contest, who would win?

Oh, thats a tough call. I think by human standards Vetinari would win because I think he's stronger as a human being. However, Susan's the granddaughter of death, with the ability to stop time. As such she would win because if she gets tired, she stops time recovers, and starts it again.

Baron

2006-01-24, 07:23 AM

Baron Von Mod: The Politics of Germany in the 1930's and 1940's falls within the remit of Real World Politics and is off topic for these forums. Please refrain from continuing discussion of them.

tyr

2006-01-24, 07:44 AM

Wow, forgot about the politics thing.

Forgot about the time stop thing, too. You make an interesting point about Vetinari being stronger as a human though, he's more experienced and probably far more coldhearted. Come to think of it, it's sort of strange how Susan's essential humanity is always made evident somehow, like the chocolate thing in Thief of Time, while there is definitely something uncanny about the patrician. Like his apparent omniscience and how no one ever sees him sleep. They both blur the line between mortals and immortals, but from different directions.

Oznstuff

2006-01-24, 08:34 AM

By the way, if Susan and Vetinari had a staring contest, who would win?
No question, Susan would win. If she got bored, or needed to blink/go save the Universe, she would simply freeze time, do what she had to do, then re-join the program, already in progress. But I'm sure she would feel just awful about it... ;)

Mute

2006-01-24, 08:38 AM

To continue the discusison on the ethics involved in the epic duel between Belkar Bitterleaf and Miko Miyazaki we have with us in the studio today the esteemed author of the crittically acclaimed "Criticism of post-Hegelian ethics: a dialectical approach" and chair of the department of philosophy at the University of Somewhere, Professor Thog (esq). Good evening.

Talky man talk funny.

Professor, Mr. Bitterleaf is widely regarded as a sociopathic killer without any regard anybody but himself. Is it true that you have met Mr. Bitterleaf in person some 200 strips ago, and can you share your impressions of his character?

Thog meet little man in strip 43. Little man like stabby. Thog like smash. But little man take barbarian level, Thog think he has heart in right place.

An eye-opener to say the least, I'm sure our viewers will agree! But what about Ms. Miyazaki, the stalward if sometimes over-zealous defender of law, justice and the Azure Way?

Pretty girls give Thog cooties! But maybe little man's FWOOSH! make cooties go away. And pretty girl like smite. Smite is speshul smash. So Thog give pretty girl benefit of doubt.

Professor, do I understand correctly you're saying that the thesis of Miyazaki and the antithesis of Bitterleaf will, through the dialectic of battle, result in the synthesis of mutual understanding and respect?

Thog like smash.

Thank you for your time, Professor. Contending this view is our next guest Mr. Scruffy, the founder of the Society for Ethical Treatment of All Entities with a Positive INT SCORE. But first these messages...

Reaver225

2006-01-24, 08:38 AM

Oznstuff

2006-01-24, 09:04 AM

Hey MUTE, that was awesome! Was there supposed to be an acronyme for Mr. Scruffy's group? Those of us with INT as a dump stat didn't get it... lol

Flak_Razorwill

2006-01-24, 09:18 AM

Hoopy_Frood

2006-01-24, 09:19 AM

Wow evileeyore, I thought that Terry Pratchett was a purely British institution. Apparently it's international in some parts.

On the message board where I'm senior admin, there are a good number of people who are Pratchett fans. From Yanks to Brits to Scandinavians. Also, if the bookstores in the States are anything to go by, there are always plenty of copies of various Pratchett books on the shelves. Generally, the better selling a book is, the more copies you'll find on the shelf. (Makes the bookstore look better.)

And I agree that Rincewind would be a true neutral. He's not chaotic because their truly is a force that drives him to do what he does. He lives by a code which basically comes down to "I do what I need to do to survive." He does have leanings toward good, though, and has demonstrated it multiple times. Particularly noticeable in Sourcery. One case has already been mentioned--i.e. the sock of sand--but another is when he goes off on his own with the magic carpet to stop the insanity wrought by the sourcerer. Rincewind is loyal to wizardry, in spite of the fact that (or maybe even because) he isn't very good at it. A loyalty that exceeds that of most of his contemporaries, and reluctantly commits himself to stopping Coin, risking his life in the process.

I think that (correct me if I'm wrong) Nazi's was used as a perfect example of Godwins Law. Godwins Law is that if a principle is raised, someone counters that with "that may be so, but.." and then goes on to say a negative aspect of this.

You need to brush up on your internet history a bit. (Do you even know who Godwin was?) Godwin's law is simply this: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

The Nazis/Hitler are Godwin's law, not an example of it.

Greebo

2006-01-24, 09:42 AM

Vimes, Carrot: Lawful good.

Rincewind: True neutral ('cause he does what is best for him i.e. runs away leaving behind comrades and so has 'evil' traits, but otherwise does good stuff)

Vetinari: Lawful evil in a good way(i.e. what he does he does to benifit HIM, but that just happens to be in the interests of everyone else. Remember, tyrant.)
Vimes, Carrot, Rincewind - agree.

Vetinari: No, I can't agree. Lawful yes, but not Evil. Neutral. Why not Evil?

Because look at how the city itself runs. The thieves guild is legal because while theft is technically wrong, you're always going to have it, so may as well make it efficient and as minimally imposing on others.

Yes he was trained as an Assassin, but so what? So was Pteppic, and Pteppic was clearly G (I'm inclined towards NG). Being an Assassin in Ankh-Morpork isn't a statement of your character, it's simply a respected career.

Ventinari makes the city work by being pragmatic - by not abusing people unnecessarily, and by not ignoring a solution that will work in favor of a solution that fits some moral code.

The fact that he remains a Tyrant gives him the ability to exercise his true neutrality when it comes to good and evil. In Going Postal, Ventinari undid the clack's pirates (if you will) not because they threatened, him, but because they were...yes, that's right...upsetting the balance in his city. THEY were Evil(Selfish), and he used one thief/con artists to stop another to maintain the city's neutral and pragmatic effectiveness.

Greebo

2006-01-24, 09:45 AM

You need to brush up on your internet history a bit. (Do you even know who Godwin was?) Godwin's law is simply this: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

The Nazis/Hitler are Godwin's law, not an example of it.
Am I mistaking in thinking it goes a bit further, in that it also says that once the comparison is made, the conversation is almost always rendered meaningless, because making comparisons to Nazi's is almost always completely baseless, given how purely evil their actions were by comparison?

mastroyo

2006-01-24, 09:51 AM

Since i'm the causant of this deliberation of Godwin's Law, i wish to make a few observations:

IMHO, Godwin's law doesn't aplly. I used 3 examples for a logical falacy used in the forum. One of them included nazis, as a common mistake that generated Godwin's law, who observed this in usenet. After that, Godwin law states a comparision involving Nazis or Hitler is needed. No comparision was made, nor with an argument or person. I only used it as a way to demonstrate this falacy.

Notice, please, that I am NOT talking about "The Politics of Germany in the 1930's and 1940's", but about Godwin's Law.
If for that I'm guilt, then so be it.

However, to be fair, I am in a sence, related to Godwin's Law....
McCandlish's Third Corollary to the Wilcox-McCandlish Law that states that "Any attempt at recourse to formal logic or identification of classic fallacies will simply increase the irrationality of the discussion."

So, for that, I do apologise.

Wrecan

2006-01-24, 09:55 AM

With all due respect to Rich and his free web-comic, I am sick of people saying that he is completely free of obligation to his readership.

Rich is completely free of obligation to his readership. I'll say it again.

He has no obligation whatsoever to his readership.

He owes us nothing. Nada. Zip.

Rich does this because he enjoys it, not because we buy his books and t-shirts and go to conventions. He should do what he likes, when he likes and where he likes because it's his strip. He owns it. He can shut the forums down if he so chooses.

All we can give him are consequences. Consequences are not obligations. You don't like his stuff? Don't buy the books. Don't buy the t-shirts. Don't get Dragon magazine. Why? Because you have no obligation to him.

See how nice that is? He has no obligations to you, you have no obligations to him. It's an obligation-free relationship.

Hoopy_Frood

2006-01-24, 10:06 AM

Am I mistaking in thinking it goes a bit further, in that it also says that once the comparison is made, the conversation is almost always rendered meaningless, because making comparisons to Nazi's is almost always completely baseless, given how purely evil their actions were by comparison?

You're not really mistaken, but this is more of a consequence of Godwin's Law being invoked than an actual part of the Law itself.

The best way to deal with Godwin's Law is either to ignore the invoker or ridicule them, unless there truly is basis for comparison to the Nazis.

And as mastoryo has clarified, Godwin's Law was being used as an example of a flawed argument, it wasn't actually invoked.

Yahoo_Serious

2006-01-24, 10:18 AM

I think Giant's holding off posting the new strip just to see if a single episode thread can get to 666 posts. I'm sure the new strip will show up any moment now... ;)

Reaver225

2006-01-24, 11:01 AM

Vimes, Carrot, Rincewind - agree.

Vetinari: No, I can't agree. Lawful yes, but not Evil. Neutral. Why not Evil?

Because look at how the city itself runs. The thieves guild is legal because while theft is technically wrong, you're always going to have it, so may as well make it efficient and as minimally imposing on others.

Ventinari makes the city work by being pragmatic - by not abusing people unnecessarily, and by not ignoring a solution that will work in favor of a solution that fits some moral code.

The fact that he remains a Tyrant gives him the ability to exercise his true neutrality when it comes to good and evil. In Going Postal, Ventinari undid the clack's pirates (if you will) not because they threatened, him, but because they were...yes, that's right...upsetting the balance in his city. THEY were Evil(Selfish), and he used one thief/con artists to stop another to maintain the city's neutral and pragmatic effectiveness.

Actually, if someone does 'Good' deeds, but only to further their own 'evil' ends, does that make them Good or Evil?

e.g. Belkar, helping defeat Xyrkon for XP, Russia attacking Germany in WW2, Vetinari ruling Ankh Morpork with an IRON (yet caring) fist?

WampaX

2006-01-24, 11:09 AM

I think Giant's holding off posting the new strip just to see if a single episode thread can get to 666 posts. I'm sure the new strip will show up any moment now... ;)

Considering the Giant was at a Convnetion all weekend, I would guess that is why the strip is late.

And since I don't feel like slogging through 10 pages of posts to see if that has been said already, I'll just say it here and be done with it.

Reaver225

2006-01-24, 11:16 AM

Considering the Giant was at a Convnetion all weekend, I would guess that is why the strip is late.

And since I don't feel like slogging through 10 pages of posts to see if that has been said already, I'll just say it here and be done with it.

]query[
Is that 'late' as in late or actually just wednesday's?

Silfir

2006-01-24, 11:18 AM

The actual intentions of Vetinari never really become obvius enough to justify assigning a special alignment to him. At least that's how it seems to me.

To me, he rather seems True Neutral, if anything.

Maybe you just have to see that, sometimes, you don't KNOW what's going on in other people. Think of Vetinari holding up a lead sheet. ;)

Greebo

2006-01-24, 11:32 AM

Actually, if someone does 'Good' deeds, but only to further their own 'evil' ends, does that make them Good or Evil?

So because Ventinari's actions also benefit himself, he's evil?

Or are you claiming that all of Ventinari's actions benefit himself first?

I don't agree. I'd like you to illustrate your claim.

Ventinari's actions are always calculated to keep the CITY operating, and sometimes he, persoanlly, suffers for it. He has been imprisoned and replaced (temporariy) by a Dragon as King, poisoned (and he know how and allowed it to contine), and framed for murder. Were he purely motivated by self interest alone, I do not think he would have acted as he did.

And how was he personally benefitted by taking down the Clacks thieves, hmm?

Greebo

2006-01-24, 11:33 AM

GeekDaddy

2006-01-24, 11:33 AM

I hope Rich can post soon before we have to call in the jendarme to quell the riots that are threatening to erupt here!

Just don't get any blood on the shoes, that's all I ask.

Ilaun_Undil

2006-01-24, 11:46 AM

For everyone still drooling on their keyboards waiting for the new OOTS episode, lets talk about what might be in the boxes, also because we have beaten to death nearly anyother topic thus far. It might work out good for Belkar if he could find some Alchemical fire. you never know Belkar might have many traps located around the area.

Arakune

2006-01-24, 11:53 AM

hum... butter, oil, kitchen knifes, some acids and base (cleaning products?) alcool and soo on.

if i writed wrong please correct me.

evileeyore

2006-01-24, 12:03 PM

Bozidar

2006-01-24, 12:04 PM

Well, Miko is not likely dead. Pissed off? Yes, but not dead.

The thing is that we can assume that the Sake is at most as damaging as a double flask of oil. We're not talking about a lot of damage here. Nice effect, probably makes her armor chafe a bit, but how much is she really going to be hurt?

She kicked the crap outta Belkar while she was fending off most of the OOTS, Smiting his ass will be a walk in the park now that he's in the open.

The only chance he has is to run, and hide again, and try to pull more tricks -- because she's not dead, she'll just lay hands on herself, and then she's going to take it out on his little hairy hide..

That being said, i hope he rages and tears her a new one..

Irie

2006-01-24, 12:04 PM

Amalthea

2006-01-24, 12:14 PM

Hmm. That is a good point. She frustrated him and unnerved him, but I guess torment was a bit much. But, he did have to take out a restraining order (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=228). :) Panels 4 and 8 of that strip are so precious. Sad Miko and innocent-style happy Belkar. Shocked Miko and demonically happy Belkar.
Please. He took the restraining order out to deliberately antagonize her. Belkar isn't wise enough to fear any consequence (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=157) other than the direct (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=125) threat of retribution.

Now, I'll agree, Belkar did force Windstriker to see legal protection from Belkar, it's just unfortunate for Windstriker that the only legal protection from Belkar tends to involve a noose (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=165).

trystenpariah

2006-01-24, 12:16 PM

this is the first time i'm posting, and i'm curious: where's 271? Is the giant ill? If so, hope youfeel better soon (and not just cuz we desperately need closure).

NEver mind, i just scrolled through the topics. so i hope mr. burlew feels better soon.

also, just to jump on the whole good evil bandwagon: The player who created Belkar is a really really bad powergamer (a halfling ranger? who specializes in melee combat?). And i see Belkar as a caricature of the old school "chaotic neutral" interpretation that used to be so popular - meaning it plays just like chaotic evil, but you can write it on your character sheet so the DM ignores it. anybody's who's been playing since 1st edition knows what i'm talking about - heck, even 2nd edition.

I have my own ideas about Miko's role, but I think i'll keep to myself on those (if i'm proven right, i'll jump on the "i knew it!" bandwagon. Probably if i'm wrong to).

And for the person whomentinoed villains by necessity: Good book. Covers evil and good very well. And for IMO, the good guys in that book were using were all pretty villainous (except for the one).

Now my head hurts. less talkee more smashee now.

Godhand

2006-01-24, 12:41 PM

Zargon

2006-01-24, 12:45 PM

Why does Roy keeps Belkar in the Oots team.
He actually wants Belkar on the team and Belkar is an integral part of the team.
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=139
And I love these strips showing Belkar CE leanings and team dynamics http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=171
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=204
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=125

It was unfair for Miko to deliberately seperate him out. Although that might help them with the trial (as mentioned before), plus might be able to argue that his current actions (due to Miko's poor judgement) should no longer be associated with the rest of the team.

Starbuck_II

2006-01-24, 12:50 PM

watermammal

2006-01-24, 01:03 PM

hum... butter, oil, kitchen knifes, some acids and base (cleaning products?) alcool and soo on.

if i writed wrong please correct me.

A couple of minor corrections.

alcool=alcohol, writed=wrote, and knifes=knives.

Otherwise, assuming your first language is Japanese, I am seriously impressed. I study Russian so I completely understand trying to master another language. Of course at this point, I should probably stop as this is so not a comic topic. But just out of curiosity, how long have you been studying English?

Bozidar

2006-01-24, 01:05 PM

Does anyone else find the term, " laying hands on her self" dirty or just me?Natrually, and frankly it's the only good reason to have a female paladin or monk.

Hey, anyone else find it funny that Miko's got levels in two classes that don't let you progress in each other once you leave them?

either way, she could have a good deal of healing on her, Belkar has no chance against her unless the DM railroads the plot back.. in which case YAY! death to Miko and all her kind!

(It's not like she can forgive him, he killed a fellow soldier a couple of strips back)

Zargon

2006-01-24, 01:08 PM

trystenpariah' point on the 1st and 2nd 'CN' theory is so true. In the few 1st edition campaigns i've been in there has ALWAYS been someone either playing CN with CE tendencies or N with NE tendencies in a mostly good aligned party. Most of the time however, they do add spice to the group so you cant be too angry. It is annoying when you get a knife shoved in your back for not healing them first however...
Having an evil character on a mostly good team might seem strange, but unless there is a real reason (e.g. paladin can't associate with) or suspicion of the character in intentsions, it can work if the team helps control the evil tendencies (why kill helpless villagers for a few copper pieces when there is a whole dungeon of kobolds with silver pieces and extra XP that need killing!). Hey it works with Belkar! But only with the team keeping him in check. So that is a good act on Roy's part?! Think of how many innocent human lives he saved (see Belkar's trail of blood in origins to guess maybe hundreds?)
One character I played was a CE 1/2 orc "scout" (had a non-dedection amulet - pretended to be neutral) that joined up with a party (TN/CG) for amusement and destruction (not the party, just the dungeon). Went great until a Paladin joined the team... talk about a major thorn with things going rapidly downhill - every time the self righteous paladin opened his mouth, Mr half-orc dreamed of firing a crossbow bolt in there and this time it wouldn't be coated with the wimpy sleep poison but with the special posion he had obtained just for the paladin...
So... sounds familiar....?

Greebo

2006-01-24, 01:08 PM

Does anyone else find the term, " laying hands on her self" dirty or just me?
I'd watch... :o ;D :o ;D

Loki_d20

2006-01-24, 01:14 PM

You know, being a long time OotS reader and lurker of the boards, I do think some people get carried away with their exact profiling of the OotS group members. I guess it's fine and all to do this if you want, but don't forget that many of the actions taken in situations are not done to create a prolonged concept or determination of alignment but to fuel the storyline and to present an option within the realm of possibility that Rich thinks we will find humorous. While each comic you reference as a stance on the actions of individual characters may help to prove your point, I believe it has just as much of a chance to skew your data as well.

aka don't over think and over analyze things, just let it flow like the storyline and characters do in OotS.

*shrugs*

Tioren

2006-01-24, 01:17 PM

Lets hope for Belkars sake she doesnt try using her Detect Evil x ray vision. And further more its very fortunate for him that she has used up her daily smite evil.

JohnnyComeLately

2006-01-24, 01:21 PM

Rich is completely free of obligation to his readership. I'll say it again.

He has no obligation whatsoever to his readership.

He owes us nothing. Nada. Zip.

Rich does this because he enjoys it, not because we buy his books and t-shirts and go to conventions. He should do what he likes, when he likes and where he likes because it's his strip. He owns it. He can shut the forums down if he so chooses.

All we can give him are consequences. Consequences are not obligations. You don't like his stuff? Don't buy the books. Don't buy the t-shirts. Don't get Dragon magazine. Why? Because you have no obligation to him.

See how nice that is? He has no obligations to you, you have no obligations to him. It's an obligation-free relationship.

You're right, he has no inherent obligations. Neither does any other webcomic artist who manages to get their strip up in a timely fashion. I love webcomics, read quite a few. PVP is up every day of the week. Penny Arcade keeps a Mon-Wed-Fri schedule--even when they attend (or hell, host) a convention. Are they obligated to their readers to do so? No, yet they do... which means they have a larger readership, thus higher book sales, ad revenue at their website, etc.

I don't really even care that much that he violates his self-imposed deadlines. I mean after all, without consequences, what's a deadline? He could just as easily say, "You know what, I'll put up a comic whenever I feel like it," and that would be his prerogative. In fact, maybe he should switch to that, it would remove the pressure and let his fans know not to have any expectations of him.

Sure, he can do what he likes, as you say. He does it for fun... but he admits he's doing it for money too (hence leaving his job). And while the comic strip is most assuredly "his," I daresay part of his enjoyment is sharing it with the world. Artists and performers cannot live in a vacuum, they have to share what they do with the world or else it becomes a hollow task.

But, what do I know. I'm just a forum lurker. Heh. :-/

Oznstuff

2006-01-24, 01:24 PM

Does anyone else find the term, " laying hands on her self" dirty or just me?

I just don't hear "the Devinals" When I think about you I touch myself coming from Miko right now, more like "Broken Bones Short but Sweet. Urg, I think I just dated myself... Belkar also has theme music playing, although I can't remember the artist the lyrics are (approprietly):
I'm a nightmare walking
a Gangster talking
I'm a coldlblooded killer, I'm a psycopath stalking
On another subject, based on no evidence whatsoever, I've decided that Rich is not going to post a new comic until Wed, partially because he still needs to recover from the Con this weekend, but also as punishment for something someone has done. It obviously could not have been ME because my Mommy tells me I am as pure as the day I dropped from Heaven itself (pauses to adjust halo) so it must have been one of YOU! Come on SINNERS, fess up! God's watching and HE KNOWS!!! pant, pant, rant, and rave.
hmm, sorry, I seem to have been chaneling Sam Kinison for a moment there... lol ;)

Zargon

2006-01-24, 01:26 PM

I guess it would be nice to get a headsup rough estimate - he has done that in the past and was always good to hear...
p.s. this thread seems a bit long....

Jareth

2006-01-24, 01:30 PM

Vimes, Carrot, Rincewind - agree.

Vetinari: No, I can't agree. Lawful yes, but not Evil. Neutral. Why not Evil?

As a complete aside, I'm surprised (pleasantly) to see so much interest in Pratchett and the Discworld, though I suppose I really shouldn't be.

I know only a few people who read it, and until recently it was hard to find Pratchett at local bookstores. I guess I always thought of it as more of a niche, or specialty market - possibly because, when I read it and laugh out loud and people ask me to explain what was so funny and I do, they don't get it. :-[

However, now that I think about it, most people see D&D as a niche too, and also don't get that humor, so I probably shouldn't be too surprised that a group of people enjoy both. ;)

<shrug> Oh well, just a random thought. That and the new book THUD has in it perhaps one of the funniest things I've ever read in my entire life. ;D

Adeptus

2006-01-24, 01:34 PM

Lady_Orc

2006-01-24, 01:43 PM

It's interesting that both are definitely LG, and yet both are almost opposites in so many ways - and enough so that they combine to make an even more effective team. Their differences would be shown through stats (Carrot obviously high Cha, Vimes I would guess Wis + experience), which shows that alignment is not overriding, and should always be roleplayed with an eye on that characters stats.

I wouldn't make Rincewind TN - anyone who's actions are partially directly controlled by The Lady pretty much has to be chaotic. He's CN, and when his life is not too chaotic he veers slightly towards G.

For the true neutrals of the Discworld, I would look to the witches, who are absolutely perfect models of how to play druids. Although they often do good in the world, frequently they are doing this to redress the balance with some evil that has been done. At other times, they see their role as making the decisions that need to be made. Again, the two recurring characters, Granny Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg both acheive the same end, but their differences are clear - Granny has high Wis, Nanny has high Cha.

Nothing to do with the comic - sorry, but a really interesting debate on the role of alignment in role play.

Oh yes, Vimes and Carrot are quite different in many ways, and similar in others. Agree about the stats too. Now, what would Death be? LN? If so, he's one of the few examples of a LN character that I find utterly lovable. However, he *does* break his own rules on occasion, as in the case of Mort for example. The Auditors I would say are a perfect example of the worst kind of LN.

Jareth

2006-01-24, 01:51 PM

Thud isn't funny, it's something much better. It's a great fantasy thriller, a detective story. The Sam Vimes books are easily my favorites in all of Terry's wonderful creation.

Btw, I'm astonished to hear Prachett as a fringe market prduct, and I live in Finland*

*ok, of course I know that scandinavia is the bright center of mankind's civilization, but I just thought that it would sound outlandish enough in the US, what with polar bears and sabertooth tigers walking our packed earth streets.

*impish smile*

At the risk of going completely off the topic of this thread... Oops, already did.

I agree wiith that description of Thud, but I would add that I feel that way about a great deal of Pratchett - and yet I think he always manages to tuck absolute gems of humor in there as well. One section of Thud had me in tears...

And really, in that way, I find that Pratchett and his books remind me a great deal of the Giant and OoTS. Epic stories so very well told but with such great tongue-in-cheek humor blended in seemlessly in such a way that you don't know what you'll get from page-to-page or panel-to-panel - like the 'Slipping the wood' joke in the previous strip.

(Wow, lookit that, I even managed to bring it back to somewhere in the vicinity of the actual topic... ok, so I'm a strip behind, but still...) :P

As to fringe markets, I live in a pretty rural section of Atlantic Canada - which means things like Pratchett, D&D, OoTS and other things too numerable to mention are all pretty much fringe markets - though I'm proud to say I've managed to introduce my teenage brother and his friends to all three with great success.

Greebo

2006-01-24, 01:52 PM

Thud isn't funny, it's something much better. It's a great fantasy thriller, a detective story. The Sam Vimes books are easily my favorites in all of Terry's wonderful creation.
No, THUD isn't funny, but it does have some very FUNNY stuff IN it!

MOOOO!!!
B'ggerit!

Ok, so how many of you proudly have "Where's my cow?" on the bookshelf NEXT to THUD! ? :)

Rizzo

2006-01-24, 01:54 PM

You're right, he has no inherent obligations. Neither does any other webcomic artist who manages to get their strip up in a timely fashion. I love webcomics, read quite a few. PVP is up every day of the week. Penny Arcade keeps a Mon-Wed-Fri schedule--even when they attend (or hell, host) a convention. Are they obligated to their readers to do so? No, yet they do... which means they have a larger readership, thus higher book sales, ad revenue at their website, etc.

I don't really even care that much that he violates his self-imposed deadlines. I mean after all, without consequences, what's a deadline? He could just as easily say, "You know what, I'll put up a comic whenever I feel like it," and that would be his prerogative. In fact, maybe he should switch to that, it would remove the pressure and let his fans know not to have any expectations of him.

Sure, he can do what he likes, as you say. He does it for fun... but he admits he's doing it for money too (hence leaving his job). And while the comic strip is most assuredly "his," I daresay part of his enjoyment is sharing it with the world. Artists and performers cannot live in a vacuum, they have to share what they do with the world or else it becomes a hollow task.

Hear hear.

Amalthea

2006-01-24, 02:01 PM

Lets hope for Belkars sake she doesnt try using her Detect Evil x ray vision. And further more its very fortunate for him that she has used up her daily smite evil.

It's generally agreed that Miko has at least 10 paladin levels, and therefore she has only used ONE of her THREE daily attempts to Smite Evil.

nagora

2006-01-24, 02:11 PM

As someone who started poking around the forums just because I was wondering what had happened to 271, I think there is a real problem in the fact that Rich is reading these messages and then, if someone happens to guess what's going to happen, he feels an obligation to re-write the script to renew the surprise. In my opinion this is as misguided as a GM or TV script writer (Hello, Buffy!) doing the same thing. The result is never the writer's "pure" vision and rarely better.

I think Rich should stick to writing and drawing and stop reading these posts, for his own artistic and mental good, unless he can grasp that the percentage of people who post here out of the total readership is tiny and should not be allowed to sway his opinion of whether the story is working or not. I mean, how many people that read The Dragon (is that still going?! I gave up at issue 101) read these posts to have the plot "spoilt"?

Arakune

2006-01-24, 02:14 PM

A couple of minor corrections.

alcool=alcohol, writed=wrote, and knifes=knives.

Otherwise, assuming your first language is Japanese, I am seriously impressed. I study Russian so I completely understand trying to master another language. Of course at this point, I should probably stop as this is so not a comic topic. But just out of curiosity, how long have you been studying English?

actualy, is portuguese.
japanese is my SECOND language.
the english came from imported Magic The Gathering cards, rpgs and scans from manga that will never be released here.
---------------------------------------------

Evil? I remenber to see some Good Characters acting like serial killers, smart people dumb like a donkey and someone which (in game) the knowledge of a baby to act like a genius!
He's just a bad player.

nagora

2006-01-24, 02:24 PM

Evil? I remenber to see some Good Characters acting like serial killers, smart people dumb like a donkey and someone which (in game) the knowledge of a baby to act like a genius!
He's just a bad player.

More English lessons: you used "which" here and in your signature where a native would use "with". And you're right: that's a bad player! We've all had them (and most of us have been them at times too).

omikapsi

2006-01-24, 02:25 PM

Can someone point me to the note that indicates what happened to 271? I've looked over the boards, this thread, and the front page and can't find if he's got health problems again, it's just late, or what.
Am I wasting my time looking for a comic before tomorrow?

chiefwaha

2006-01-24, 02:29 PM

slowly_insane

2006-01-24, 02:32 PM

Someone in another thread mentioned that Rich was coming down with a cold during MarsCon, so that might have something to do with it.

Comassion

2006-01-24, 02:35 PM

Deuce

2006-01-24, 02:38 PM

It probably has to do with him making an appearance at a Con this weekend.

Could also be a travel realated issue. Not sure how he was going to/from the con, but if he drove - car trouble, if he flew - weather delays, missed a connecting flight or got bumped. Hope he's alright and look forward to the next strip whenever it's up.

Reaver225

2006-01-24, 02:38 PM

Ventinari's actions are always calculated to keep the CITY operating, and sometimes he, persoanlly, suffers for it. He has been imprisoned and replaced (temporariy) by a Dragon as King
And promptly locked himself inside the dungeon, preventing the dragon getting at him, while calmly waiting for Vimes to restore the situation without helping him...

poisoned (and he know how and allowed it to contine),
Actually, he didn't. He cut off the candles and allowed Vimes hunt down his would be assassin.

framed for murder. (while knocked out)

And how was he personally benefitted by taking down the Clacks thieves, hmm?
Easy. He let the clacks company be almost wiped out (which, while not his personal doing, might be attributed to him by letting, uh, Moist, into office)allowing him to a: take (near to) direct control over the clacks (therby allowing him to have control over other countries communication), and b: gave him an opportunity to get Gilt (who is decietful and evil) to control the bank or die (which doesn't seem very good to me).

I don't think Vetinari has ever since taking control of the city ever put himself in danger (Ok, maybe once slightly in Jingo, but there he was in danger from being executed after invasion) and keeps the city running smoothly, because, by damn, it means all the more control for him! And don't forget about the dark clerks he has...

Which brings me back to the point I made earlier, if someone who does things that benifit himself the most, but in doing so helps (some) other people, is that good?

MOOOO!!!
B'ggerit!

STOP IN THE NAME OF THE LAW!

What's in the boxes?

Dried XP. Where they ration it out to new paladins for minor quests.

Oznstuff

2006-01-24, 02:39 PM

We have been smitten with the Post of Lateness, for yea verily, are we not all Sinners in the eyes of the Giant?

Okay, I am going into serious Oots withdrawl here, and I am all out of fudge-ripple to stave off a boredom-fueled sarcasm rampage! I NEED MY FIX MAN!!

See?! I can't even spell right anymore!! Help!

nagora

2006-01-24, 02:40 PM

Chalk another new registered user in for this thread - another Pratchett fan here.

Putting the issue of Good and Evil aside (since I think arguments can be made for all three), Vetinari is decidedly Lawful. Lawful alignment doesn't just represent respect for the law, it also represents respect for order, and Vetinari, in legalizing the Thieves and Assassins guilds, has done an exemplary job of creating more organizations to help him manage and keep order within the city.

Vetinari is definately LN within fairly narrow bounds; he dislikes real "do-gooders" and deeply nasty people with apparently equal measure. Keeping the city running is his only concern and he will do evil acts or good acts as needed. Keeping Leonard locked up is certainly not the act of a Chaotic or Good person, but letting him have what he wants to be happy and needs for his work is not what an Evil person would do either.

Reaver225

2006-01-24, 02:43 PM

Keeping Leonard locked up is certainly not the act of a Chaotic or Good person, but letting him have what he wants to be happy and needs for his work is not what an Evil person would do either.

I'd just like to point out that the only reason he didn't have Leonard killed was out of curiosity.

(uh, yeah, Belkar rocks, or something)

rosebud

2006-01-24, 02:44 PM

Baron Von Mod: The Politics of Germany in the 1930's and 1940's falls within the remit of Real World Politics and is off topic for these forums. Please refrain from continuing discussion of them.With all due respect, in fairness, they weren't talking about the politics of the 1930's and 1940's. As an anaology, it's as Miko said (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=209), 'What is this "Japan" you speak of? I have never heard of it before.'

This is (I'm too new to have gone through all of the last few years threads, but I'm making, I hope, a reasonable presumption) by far the longest thread discussing the comic in the comics forum. In less than a week, it's nearing the size of the year-old book ordering thread. It's sufficiently long as to be a wee bit frustrating for some of those who wish to keep up and have something that other people call "a life". Since everything else has been discussed at least three times, one tends to end up getting into meta conversation. Thus, the probabilities defined in the terms of Godwin's Law (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf-lovers/msg/84426456ad1724f2) ends up nearing one. Since, as the Godwin's Law Faq (http://www.killfile.org/~tskirvin/faqs/godwin.html) describes, attempting to invoke the law by referring to the law is not a valid attempt, clearly this thread needs to go on longer. ::)

soozenw

2006-01-24, 02:48 PM

Okay, I am going into serious Oots withdrawl here, and I am all out of fudge-ripple to stave off a boredom-fueled sarcasm rampage! I NEED MY FIX MAN!!

See?! I can't even spell right anymore!! Help!

just start over with #1. that should help when jonesing for a oots hit.

slowly_insane

2006-01-24, 02:53 PM

Well, it is the longest thread for a single comic, but the longest thread listed is May '05 with 868 posts. That's the one to beat!

Amalthea

2006-01-24, 03:01 PM

Well, it is the longest thread for a single comic, but the longest thread listed is May '05 with 868 posts. That's the one to beat!
Well, we only need 149 more. It's doable.

While I despise Belkar and pity Miko, I don't really want either of them to die, and I don't see how this storyline will go without one or the other dying. So I'm somewhat frantically awaiting the next strip. And the strip after that. And so on.

BurntOfferings

2006-01-24, 03:03 PM

Ok, so how many of you proudly have "Where's my cow?" on the bookshelf NEXT to THUD! ? :)

Where is my daddy? Is that my daddy?

"B'ggerit! Millenium hand and fish!"

That's not my daddy, that's Foul Ol' Ron!

Great stuff. But alas, I do not have a copy of Where's my Cow? on my bookshelf.

But I do have Nanny Ogg's Cookbook. I will never look at a custard the same was again.

theKOT

2006-01-24, 03:03 PM

Well, it is the longest thread for a single comic, but the longest thread listed is May '05 with 868 posts. That's the one to beat!

So we have, in one weekend and a monday, neared the number of posts for the entire month of may last year? Ye gads!!!! It must be all the mikoversy. I do wonder how strong that sake must be.....

BurntOfferings

2006-01-24, 03:05 PM

So I'm somewhat frantically awaiting the next strip. And the strip after that. And so on.
So, what you're saying is "situation normal", right? ;) ;D

Reborn

2006-01-24, 03:06 PM

That's possible, it doesn't look like Rich will be posting another comic, until Wednesday's one. :'(

Alfryd

2006-01-24, 03:06 PM

He is a Good Guy, and Good Guys protect those weaker than them. He made a moral choice.
The most moral choice would be to leave Elan in a home somewhere, where he poses no threat to himself and others.

Racism abound, creatures color coded for your justification in their deaths, and murder the requirement for any significant advancement in personal power.
I personally feel that defeating enemies without killing them should grant bonus XP, since it's often harder.

...I can only wish you good luck getting through the average Hollywood action movie!
These tend to have a small fraction of the character depth.

And I also remembered one of the topics of the FAQ: the giant commands the plot. If he wants her to fail, she WILL fail.
Ah, but can he simoltaneously create a character like Miko and then want her to die horribly?
(i.e, Can the Creator make a rock so heavy he can't lift it?)

A psychopath would not have cared about Miko's detect evil since from his point of view everything bad he had done would have been justifiable and right.
But he might well have cared about the consequences of using Detect Evil. Psychopaths can be aware that their actions are, technically, evil, they jut don't consider evil to be 'bad.' And/or don't care especially about justification.

The Miko/Belkar was simply a plot device to remove Belkar from the trial arena (perhaps to have him comically burst in at the most inopportune moment).
I'm still wondering about the possible use of Cleansing Flame... a little artifical, but it would be a quick, easy, and painless method of redeeming Belkar and having him rejoin the group in short order.

Blekar and Miko in a Trashy Romance Novel bodice-ripper pose.
If I don't look directly, it can't kill my brain.

Carrot on the other LG hand... is very much a Paladin, just without the all the special abilities.
But he has a *very* good sword. Carrot is an interesting example of a Paladin who holds to the code but manages to bend it without bending it. Such as when he bluffs Mr. Whiteface. 'Guard, Guards'! I think.
"Subtlety from Carrot was like being savaged by a duck."

Literally meaning mental illness, psychopathy is defined in psychiatry as a personality disorder characterised by lack of empathy or conscience, poor impulse control and manipulative behaviors.
Strictly speaking, there's nothing mentally defective about psychopaths. The thing is, we only hear about the ones who aren't good at it, whose deceit and manipulation and self-service cause them to be ousted by society. Successful psychopaths serve as the CEOs of large corporations, and are lauded as captains of industry.

If you don't consider objectifying another human being to the point of possesing it to the point of destruction as an illness/disease, what is it then?
Something that harms the organism. Psychopathology can be highly beneficial to the organism, under certain circumstances, which is why we all have a capacity for selfishness. Altruism has only evolved due to gene persistence within the larger social group lending a broad survival advantage to tribes who evince mutual support and cooperation. However, this only functions as long as tribes remained distinct entities in competition, which is why humans still have the capacity to conceive of people outside their tribe as somehow subhuman. And Genghis Khan may have 16 million descendants.

No problem, we'll just hunt them down, harvest their kidneys and use the money we gain from selling their organs on the black market to fund Belkar-conventions.
But of course.

Considering the Giant was (still is?) at a convention in Virginia (being fairly far from New York), he will probably not be able to post a new comic until at least tomorrow. But that's just a guess, of course.
I maintain a reccomendation that Rich scale back to 2 comics a week and build up a backlog of strips.

Now here is the really hard one. Did any of you have a problem with Sin City? or Pulp Fiction?
Curiously, I found the cartoon sequence in KB1 much more disturbing.

So, I have a question for all of you people who have a problem with Miko being lit on fire simply because she was lit on fire...
We give a rat's ass about Miko. I did find the torture scene in Reservoir Dogs quite harrowing. I mean, it's not quite like it's in self-defence, that's the thing. There's somehow the feeling that Belkar has made this all inevitable, a carefully planned sequence of torment and degredation, chiefly for the sake of his own pleasure, which is severely creepy. If it were done to some random goblin, I'd still find it creepy. That it's happening to Miko really clinches it. She has brought it upon herself, but this does not mean she *deserves* it. The rest of the OotS would not do this to any enemy.

Stop being so blasted melodramatic. It's nonmagical fire, it deals a mere 1d6 damage per round.
Well excuse me, it's a little something I like to call Role-playing.

...and so by them developing within the comic, they are becoming not farcical?
Congratulations.

Miko doesn't act the LG she was supposed to be.
You mean the LG you suppose she should be. She considers all non-good actions to be evil, and technically, she's partly right. She simply has a defective knowledge of ethics/morals. I'm sorry, rudeness does not qualify as non-LG.

If it was meant to show pain, it would be AIIIEEEE or OWWW or THE AGONY.
That argument is farcical.

If one perishes, whatever happens, please don't let an unreformed Miko make the rest of our lives a freaking living hell.
Miko wouldn't be so bad if she weren't out to bring the rest of the party in dead or alive as prisoners. She'd eventually wise up, or be forcibly ejected from the group. The whole ogre/speech/fireball thing could only be applied so often before it breaks down tactically.

Vetinari- LG. He just has very roundabout, controversial methods of achieving his good intentions.

Nobby and Colon are True Neutral.

Agreed. For example, with the sorcerer, and in the dungeon dimensions afterwards, where he tries to save the world with a sock-full of sand. Cool moment.
Technically speaking, he has nothing to lose there. The thing to understand is that Rincewind is a coward, but he is a rational coward. He runs away because he wants to live, not because his brain is too paralysed with terror to function otherwise.

...if Susan and Vetinari had a staring contest, who would win?
You misunderstand Vetinari. WHe would subtly arrange things so that Susan would never consider a staring contest worth her time to begin with.

How else can he justify his self-loathing?
I think you may be jumping to conclusions. Unless you consider Americanness to define a person's identity more than, say, self-worth.

I love how so many Americans have this grand illusion that the situation is better in other countries.
Some other countries, but the differences aren't typically vast. Hummers are rarer.

That's not willingly. That's fiighting with honor.
Fighting with honour may well involve failing. If you fight with honour willingly and know you'll fail, because of the honour, you fail willingly. It's simple logic.

We're discussing a paladin here.
I don't recall anything to that effect.

That's not the same as willfuly equiping them.
If their being equipped was the forseeable consequence of your decision, I'm afraid it is.

That wasn't what the other person argued. And not something I happened to agree with...
Your point being?

...Now you're backpedaling from that and trying to limit it to just knowing.
Not backpedalling. There's a difference between responsible and *morally* responsible. Not that this affects the argument.

Well, if that's the case, Elan had no clue that destroying the castle would harm the fabric of reality.
Correct. What the hell does this have to do with it?

...Had she had better diplomacy and people skills, it could have gone smoothly. That's a tactical error...
If you are suggesting you can decide, spontaneously, to have better people skills, you are wrong. Not a *tactical* error. A weakness, yes.

A competent commander can deploy troops effectively while still taking the dangerous part of the battle if that's an issue.
Miko appears to be having enough trouble versus those stealth checks without having to babysit. (In fairness, it probably was just pride.)

Expediency can cause more harm in the long term. Evil raider terrorizing the towns, taking a hostage, and demanding exorbitant tribute? Do you could give it, and cause more hostages long-term. Or you could attack and sustain casualties in the short term?
Exactly. It may be better to allow the hostage die than reward the bandits for their villainy. What are you arguing for here?

Thank you for your time, Professor. Contending this view is our next guest Mr. Scruffy, the founder of the Society for Ethical Treatment of All Entities with a Positive INT SCORE. But first these messages...
Fabulous, simply fabulous.

nagora

2006-01-24, 03:15 PM

Vetinari- LG. He just has very roundabout, controversial methods of achieving his good intentions.

Nobby and Colon are True Neutral.

Nobby and Colon are not True Neutral. I mean, seriously, can you imagine Nobby saying "I act as I must to restore the balance". Probably give them NG or plain N.

No one who sees sentient creatures as expendable tools (as Vetinari often does) could be Good.

Joe_Schmoe

2006-01-24, 03:20 PM

Add another tally on the chalkboard for forum-lurkers joining today ;D

I personally hope that Belkar finishes her off or at least makes her run.

I'd love to see a smouldering Miko burst into the courtroom while it's still in session. Wouldn't that merit an interesting explanation...

One could only imagine Roy's facial expression if that happened. ;)

Oznstuff

2006-01-24, 03:21 PM

I personally feel that defeating enemies without killing them should grant bonus XP, since it's often harder.

Interestingly in the culture of the Native American tribes on the Great Plains such an act was called "counting coups", and a warrior who was able to do so was held in much higher regard than one who just swung an Axe of +2 and smashed his way through combat. Those gained the highest respect were the ones who would simply touch an armed oppenent in combat and leave them unharmed; this was seen as a sign of great skill an ability. Of course the settlers came through and blew all of these "savages" away with shotguns and plague ridden blankets in the name of God and Westward expansion, so we are, of course, much better off now. :P

chibibar

2006-01-24, 03:27 PM

wow 49 pages....... that is a lot.

I totally agree on the old fashion Native Indian way. It is pretty hard to sneak up on the enemy, touch him, and sneak back without being caught :)

That take some serious guts.

Amalthea

2006-01-24, 03:31 PM

So, what you're saying is "situation normal", right? ;) ;D
Not quite. Normally, while OotS is far too short, I get on with life until the next fragment of story is revealed. The jokes usually make me laugh or smile, but sometimes a strip isn't meant to be funny (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=56). And those are the strips I love best, because I'm a story-junkie. I can't get enough of a good story, I'm sad when a story ends, but I would rather it end than be ruined by being prolonged indefinately *coughEyeoftheWorldcough*.

THIS is like the end of Babylon 5 Season Three. For a story-junkie, this is sheer torture.

theKOT

2006-01-24, 03:34 PM

Interestingly in the culture of the Native American tribes on the Great Plains such an act was called "counting coups", and a warrior who was able to do so was held in much higher regard than one who just swung an Axe of +2 and smashed his way through combat. Those gained the highest respect were the ones who would simply touch an armed oppenent in combat and leave them unharmed; this was seen as a sign of great skill an ability. Of course the settlers came through and blew all of these "savages" away with shotguns and plague ridden blankets in the name of God and Westward expansion, so we are, of course, much better off now. :P

Yup. Manifest destiny and all that. But I thought that Haley said that defeating still gave XP?

Oznstuff

2006-01-24, 03:35 PM

*coughEyeoftheWorldcough*

OmG, rofl! That was truly priceless! I think he wants to be the second author to reach 20 books in a series, right behind Piers Anthony and his NEVER ENDING Xanth books!

Oznstuff

2006-01-24, 03:36 PM

Yup. Manifest destiny and all that. But I thought that Haley said that defeating still gave XP?
It sure does, you just have to 'overcome' your opponent. Some DM's don't play it that way though. le sigh

Joe_Schmoe

2006-01-24, 03:38 PM

Don't forget the eternal Dragon Lance, everyone...

I'm not saying it's bad, since it's not all that connected. However it still can be annoying when you like to read things in chronological order.

nagora

2006-01-24, 03:41 PM

THIS is like the end of Babylon 5 Season Three. For a story-junkie, this is sheer torture.

Calm down, it's only one day (well, probably two)! I'm still waiting for issue 27 of Warrior (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrior_(comic))...

afflictedkender

2006-01-24, 03:45 PM

Strictly speaking, there's nothing mentally defective about psychopaths. The thing is, we only hear about the ones who aren't good at it, whose deceit and manipulation and self-service cause them to be ousted by society. Successful psychopaths serve as the CEOs of large corporations, and are lauded as captains of industry.

The way I understand it, there are varying degrees of psychopathy. For example, some people are only slightly psychopathic, which makes them ideal for a number of positions in society where empathy interferes with the job (like the justice system), whereas others are highly psychopathic, and we only hear about them because extreme lack of empathy often leads to violence.

And I think it depends on what you mean by "mentally defective," because most (if not all) psychopaths have antisocial personality disorder, which is a recognized mental disorder in the DSM-IV.

theKOT

2006-01-24, 03:46 PM

It sure does, you just have to 'overcome' your opponent. Some DM's don't play it that way though. le sigh

Oh, thanks. I have never played D&D so I wasn't sure... Does that mean Miko got XP for defeating the oots? That's gotta be a healthy chunk...

evileeyore

2006-01-24, 03:50 PM

OmG, rofl! That was truly priceless! I think he wants to be the second author to reach 20 books in a series, right behind Piers Anthony and his NEVER ENDING Xanth books!
You know PA stopped actually writting those awhile back, right? There all ghost written now, and he just slaps his name on the cover and makes a few bucks...

Amalthea

2006-01-24, 03:52 PM

THIS is like the end of Babylon 5 Season Three. For a story-junkie, this is sheer torture.
Just be be clear, comparing OotS to Babylon 5 is the absolute highest praise I can give this style of storytelling. It even outranks Firefly.

celticdeltic

2006-01-24, 03:58 PM

Whatever is going on you have to love the suspense that is happening.

PhoeKun

2006-01-24, 04:01 PM

Oh, thanks. I have never played D&D so I wasn't sure... Does that mean Miko got XP for defeating the oots? That's gotta be a healthy chunk...

Man, I never even thought of that. For those of you who are interested but too lazy/not able to look it up, that encounter should have given Miko 21,600 XP if she was 12th level, or 12,600 XP if she was 14th (as many suspsect). This would, in theory leave her in the 13-to 14 level area (since either eventuality results in not quite enough XP to hit 15). In other news, I seem to have misplaced my life.

In other other news, we've hit 50 pages.

... Yikes.

rosebud

2006-01-24, 04:01 PM

Rich does this because he enjoys it, not because we buy his books and t-shirts and go to conventions. He should do what he likes, when he likes and where he likes because it's his strip.Have you perchance read Illusions: The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach? :)

VariaVespasa

2006-01-24, 04:03 PM

Well, it is the longest thread for a single comic, but the longest thread listed is May '05 with 868 posts. That's the one to beat!

We're spammin.., er writing as fast as we can!! :P

*Hugs*
Varia

Zeekar

2006-01-24, 04:07 PM

We're spammin.., er writing as fast as we can!! :P

*Hugs*
Varia

A pleasant enough distraction, I suppose, but I'd still rather be reading #271. 'Sall I'm sayin'.

theKOT

2006-01-24, 04:08 PM

Man, I never even thought of that. For those of you who are interested but too lazy/not able to look it up, that encounter should have given Miko 21,600 XP if she was 12th level, or 12,600 XP if she was 14th (as many suspsect). This would, in theory leave her in the 13-to 14 level area (since either eventuality results in not quite enough XP to hit 15). In other news, I seem to have misplaced my life.

In other other news, we've hit 50 pages.

... Yikes.

But you should count the XP for defeating the Sam and her dad and the fact that miko might have been almost leveling up already.....

Joe_Schmoe

2006-01-24, 04:12 PM

Yea, the lack of #271 is going to cause a brain shorcircuit soon...

*eye twitch*

Can't...wait...for...Belkar...ownage... ;)

VariaVespasa

2006-01-24, 04:13 PM

A pleasant enough distraction, I suppose, but I'd still rather be reading #271. 'Sall I'm sayin'.

I fail to see why we cant do both! :) (once 271 becomes available, of course)

*Hugs*
Varia

Ghull_Ka

2006-01-24, 04:16 PM

First off...I didn't laugh at this strip. But somehow it is my favorite.

The current Belkar plotline is proof that The Giant is not just a funny guy, but a comic artist. I have honestly felt little pangs of fear and horror at the actions of our favorite halfling. I don't hate Miko, but I don't really like her at all. And yet I feel incredible pity, and almost sadness for her.

Even if she is only taking 1d6 damage, this situation must be looked at beyond rules. This is a situation that contains so much real emotion and conflict, I cannot do it justice.

Miko won't let Belkar go. Belkar won't be captured. They are opposite in so many ways. Evil vs. Good. Chaos vs. Order. Freedom vs. Control. Tall vs. Short. If you look back, it couldn't have ended any other way.

I'm sure I know people who could intelligently disect this for hours. Let it be known that Rich Burlew may never get the credit he deserves as a story teller.

He could even be compared to Shakespeare. He has got slapstick and fighting and boob jokes for the (no offense to anyone) less intelligent, and multi-dimensional characters and plots for the higherbrows out there.

Congratulations Rich. You have definetly succeded at comedy, the hardest of all entertainment forms. You have also invoked emotions in this reader that have changed the way I will write from now on.

/signed. 100 times. I couldn't agree any more. Keep up the good work, Rich.

uranium194

2006-01-24, 04:23 PM

I fail to see why we cant do both! :) (once 271 becomes available, of course)

*Hugs*
Varia

Never a bad thing to have goals!!!!