[Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

[Mephibosheth]

The fact is that people are stupid, and unless you say that it is a weapon they will assuming that you are being redundant (see Deadfall and Splinterbolt).

No idea what Deadfall and Splinterbolt are. I'll try to find some time to clarify.


But since they do suffer from DR, how can one avoid DR with it? You obviously can't make it magical, so even DR/magic will hurt. Heck, DR of any sort other than damage type is a problem.

Except DR X/magic doesn't exist in the setting. Few (if any) of the creatures in the setting even have DR and none of the item enhancements or special items grant any type of DR other than X/- or possibly X/(damage type). Don't forget, magic doesn't exist in this setting.

[dman11235]

I get it now! Hmm, I'll have to adapt it somehow.

[Pirate_King]

No idea what Deadfall and Splinterbolt are. I'll try to find some time to clarify.


splinter bolt's a druid spell.

[dman11235]

Same with Deadfall btw. Oh, and Deadfall is one of the most overpowered spells of existence, at least comparatively. It doesn't even follow the DMG spell creation, it's created like a 9th+ level spell but is only 8th level.

[Darkbane]

Both Deadfall and Splinterbolt are found in Spell Compendium, as far as I know.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Hey, all. I decided to pop in for a little bit as long as I had some time over the weekend.

Anywho, Dman, I'm currently playing two waterbenders: one in a often-interrupted Savage Tides campaign and another as a semi-NPC in my friend's PbP. The first of them, Silas Kuri, would interest you in terms of a damage-based waterbender. Y'see, waterbenders have, from what I can tell, the greatest potential off all the bending classes to make astoundingly inventive forms that can deal damage in all sorts of ways. The basic tools of the trade here are Ice Shards, Water Blast, and Tentacle. Mist opens up all sorts of possibilities, too, as does Water Whip. Check out the bending forms compendium, there's at least a half-dozen very interesting and powerful forms there for waterbenders.

Remember, everyone, that the central point of the bending system is the amount of room we have to be inventive. For example,
If your opponents run and take cover behind a 30-foot wall of stone and lock the reinforced iron door behind them; any waterbender worth his salt could spontaneously convert the Ice Shards seed into an area-of-effect by making a deal with the DM to cut down damage in exchange for area and changing it from an attack roll to a Reflex Save for half damage.
If there's an opponent hiding behind a tower shield for full cover, dump some water his way, a few feet to the right, then bring it all back in a flurry of ice shards, impaling him to the inside of his own shield.
Archer rogue with the sneak attack range-expansion feat closing in? Take one for the team and overbend to extend your water whip to some 45 feat in length and freeze the bowstring but also use the whip's momentum to have a frozen shard of it shank the guy in the head.
If you're party is set against a single outrageously powerful creature with a ton of hitpoints and durability, try doing a reverse Octopus Form on it. That is, instead of surrounding yourself with tentacles, make a cluster of tentacles around the target; two to trip each round, the rest to pound the thing into oblivion. Toss in Improved Trip if you really want to have your DM tearing his hair.
Forced to travel on your own as a waterbender? Learn to use mist and Feel the Flow (lake sense) in unison. If you're ambushed and can't run, fill the room with mist, but combine Ice Shards with Manipulate to have the shards come from a different direction each round. It'll cost you some damage-dealing potential in the beginning, but it'll keep you alive.The possibilities are truly endless; it's just a matter of creativity. However, there are certain seeds that simply weren't designed to do damage right from the get-go; such as Mist, Steady Stance, Feel the Flow, etc. And a battlefield-control waterbender will generally be easier to build than a damage-based one. And be more effective in the long-run, I would imagine. That was the idea when I transferred the seeds from Meph's original system, anyway.

[Ceiling009]

Two questions; one was brought up in the form compendium thread, I'll re-bring it up here, since I don't think anyone can move it...

"Can you stack blasts?" as in stack three blasts, per blast making that 25 DC check every time? For matter, could you stack Water Whip at least twice to get that double water whip effect?

"Is there a Form Mastery feat?" I thought there was one? Or are we missing some proposed feats lost through the largeness of the thread? Cause I really thought Form Mastery was a feat... though it did something like this...

Form Mastery [General]
Prerequisites: Must be able to bend
Benefit: You lower the base DC of a specific form by 5, but the DC can never be lower than 5.

Or something like that?

[Mephibosheth]

"Can you stack blasts?" as in stack three blasts, per blast making that 25 DC check every time? For matter, could you stack Water Whip at least twice to get that double water whip effect?

I'd say this is the sort of thing that individual DM's and players should work together to figure out. If I were DM, I'd probably say no unless presented with a very convincing argument. I can see this easily getting out of control. Firing 3 blasts in a single attack (if stacked blasts are allowed) would only be DC 23 (5+5+5+4+4), which just seems too easy to me.


"Is there a Form Mastery feat?" I thought there was one? Or are we missing some proposed feats lost through the largeness of the thread? Cause I really thought Form Mastery was a feat... though it did something like this...

Form Mastery [General]
Prerequisites: Must be able to bend
Benefit: You lower the base DC of a specific form by 5, but the DC can never be lower than 5.

Or something like that?

There are two feats that might fit this bill. Focused Bending gives a bender a +4 bonus to Bending skill checks to execute one specific seed or a form that uses that seed. Template Mastery reduces the DC of a selected template by 5.

[Ceiling009]

I just thought there was one; so that a bender could pretty much have a signature form. Or you could call that feat that... but; it's okay I guess.

I also did that math, I think, and at level 2, it's quite possible to get a guaranteed 28 against any DC involving blast, if you take focused bending (blast).

Oh yeah, another question, since I went and re-read the Waterbender, does Freeze/Melt actually change the damage type on blast or damaging to forms to cold and adds a d4 (or should that be a d6 now since all blasts are standardized), or does it just add an extra die of cold damage?

[Mephibosheth]

It just adds an extra d4 of cold damage. Most of the damage from Waterbending forms and Water Blasts seems to be a result of manipulating the surface tension of the water to make it "harder" or "sharper" (at least, that's how I'd explain it).

[Onibi]

Hello Mephibosheth. I was originally the one asking about the stacking blasts thing. It was because of Xin Fu's number of rocks thrown at Toph in The Blind Bandit. I have another question, though.

After looking at the Fossilize (Dust + Immobilize) form, both Dust and Immobilize have a DC increase for a larger area/capture target. If you, say, wanted to capture a huge creature, would you need to add another +15 to the DC (+5 for 15 ft area of dust, and +10 for a huge creature)? Or is there a better way to do this?

The reason I ask is because Dust initially covers a 10 ft area, and according to the monster manual, a huge creature covers 3x3 squares, or 15 ft, which means adding +5 to Dust, and +10 to Immobilize for two size increases (medium to huge).

Is this making the form too hard to do? Or is there a better way to do this? For example, if I wanted to make a form with Dust + Immobilize + Column(Crush), and had the proposed feats Focused Bending (Immobilize), Specialized Bending (Immobilize), Focused Bending (Column), and Form Mastery, the basic DC is 32.

Further, since Column has no DC for increasing the number of columns at a time, would you have to add +10 for each additional creature you want to crush at the same time you add +10 for each additional creature you want to capture?

[dman11235]

I know I promised that I'd do the Airbender yesterday, but I've been having internet troubles. As in, it's a wonder that I'm able to post this it's been going off so much. Since I don't know whether or not I'll have enough time to go over the class right now (it'll go off right before I hit post, I know it), put a rain check on that review until at least tomorrow night, as the guy is coming in the morning.

[dman11235]

Feels good to be back with access!

Anyways, onto the Airbender.

Blast: so... at level one they can't affect any creature (except really small ones)? Or does the "or objects weighing" only apply to objects? Possibly just the English language being stupid again. If the weight thing only applies to objects, I'd suggest just making it 5 lbs per level rather than 10 lbs/2 levels, means you can actually affect objects at level 1 and you constantly get better. Also, does it have to originate from you? Same with all blasts actually.

Deflect:see my waterbender review for any possible problems (I assume it's the exact same).

Body of Air: fine, I like it. It's actually quite powerful for a skill enhancing ability, but it's fine. However, two things. You neglect to mention that the Airbender is not limited by height with jump checks and in the second sentence you heve "alternatively, and airbender".

Windshaping: Is it a bull rush then? And does the stuff just end up 5' away, same orientation?

Flight: Seems like a really short duration to me. I mean, what's flight constant after level 10? Same with infinite healing (why is there a limit with the water bender?), it's not that big a deal, and by level 15 every character that can't fly through magic will have Wings of Flying or something similar. I know that this setting doesn't have magic items, like, at all, but i pretty sure Aang could fly for much longer periods of time than just his wis modifier (which is likely around +4 or so) Maybe have it be like the Raptorans (RotW), with a short duration at level 4 and then indefinite later on. And increase speed and maneuverability, statring with 20/poor, building to average/whatever you feel is appropriate (not perfect or good: no hover).

Dodge: Right-o. But why not just say that they gain the monk's AC bonus like the Monk's Belt does?

Particles: Some more copy/paste issues, you refer to the fog. Other than that it should be fine.

Palm Blow: Is this in addition to the normal blast? You kind of allude to that with the concentration bit, but you should make it perfectly clear. Ambiguity is what killed unarmed combat. Or better yet, have it not be a template, not really much of a reason for it to be one anyways.

Air Burst: Specify that it only applies to forms that target a single creature/object.

Air Thrust: Why is this a template? How? Should be a separate form.

Resonating Sound: You know, one would think that the few ways an airbender can actually deal damage would do a good bit of damage. I mean, you've got this, the blast when used creatively, air thrust, Air Scythe, and maybe one or two more when used creatively. Air Scythe puts this to shame. Though I guess it might be fine as it also deafens and is a line.

Flowing Air Strike: You know, I saw attack bonus based on skill check and thought the worst, but really it's not THAT bad. It's still really powerful, but not as bad as I originally thought. It's within acceptable limits.

Levitate: Wait, what about Hand of Air? Isn't that the same thing, but less powerful? You should probably change it to be more different. And yes, I know that this is self only and 10' per move action, but still, it is very similar. twinkle Toes is fine though, but kind of runs into conflicts with the sound form.

Air Scythe: As one of the few offensive abilities, it's fine. Though why you have both buffet and batter is beyond me, when you can just say it mimics your staff.

Engulfing Winds: What about something that weighs 80 lbs per level +1 lbs (Updraft)?

Tornado (Capture): Is the height a function of the top width?

[Mephibosheth]

Dman11235:


Blast: so... at level one they can't affect any creature (except really small ones)? Or does the "or objects weighing" only apply to objects? Possibly just the English language being stupid again. If the weight thing only applies to objects, I'd suggest just making it 5 lbs per level rather than 10 lbs/2 levels, means you can actually affect objects at level 1 and you constantly get better. Also, does it have to originate from you? Same with all blasts actually.

I changed the blast so that the weight limit doesn't affect creatures. That's what size bonuses to bullrush-related checks are for.


Body of Air: fine, I like it. It's actually quite powerful for a skill enhancing ability, but it's fine. However, two things. You neglect to mention that the Airbender is not limited by height with jump checks and in the second sentence you heve "alternatively, and airbender".

Whoops. Thanks for the catch. I've made the changes.


Windshaping: Is it a bull rush then? And does the stuff just end up 5' away, same orientation?

Pretty much. This ability is intended to be just like Manipulate/Play with Fire/Move a Rock. Prestidigitation for airbenders. Aang pushes small creatures and objects (mud, bugs, etc) away from himself using airbending on a relatively regular basis.


Flight: Seems like a really short duration to me. I mean, what's flight constant after level 10? Same with infinite healing (why is there a limit with the water bender?), it's not that big a deal, and by level 15 every character that can't fly through magic will have Wings of Flying or something similar. I know that this setting doesn't have magic items, like, at all, but i pretty sure Aang could fly for much longer periods of time than just his wis modifier (which is likely around +4 or so) Maybe have it be like the Raptorans (RotW), with a short duration at level 4 and then indefinite later on. And increase speed and maneuverability, statring with 20/poor, building to average/whatever you feel is appropriate (not perfect or good: no hover).

I increased the duration and allowed unlimited flight at 10th level, as you suggested. I'm keeping the original speed/maneuverability progression. Aang's flying is agile enough that I'm comfortable with good maneuverability at 20th level.


Dodge: Right-o. But why not just say that they gain the monk's AC bonus like the Monk's Belt does?

I dunno. Cuz we felt like it?


Particles: Some more copy/paste issues, you refer to the fog. Other than that it should be fine.

Done and done.


Palm Blow: Is this in addition to the normal blast? You kind of allude to that with the concentration bit, but you should make it perfectly clear. Ambiguity is what killed unarmed combat. Or better yet, have it not be a template, not really much of a reason for it to be one anyways.

Yeah, I don't quite know why this was a template. I changed that.


Air Burst: Specify that it only applies to forms that target a single creature/object.

I kept it as only applying to an Air Blast because I don't want airbenders to be able to use abilities like Air Scythe on every creature in the radius. We've seen Aang use this ability many times, but always to push creatures away.


Air Thrust: Why is this a template? How? Should be a separate form.

Changed


Levitate: Wait, what about Hand of Air? Isn't that the same thing, but less powerful? You should probably change it to be more different. And yes, I know that this is self only and 10' per move action, but still, it is very similar. twinkle Toes is fine though, but kind of runs into conflicts with the sound form.

An airbender can't use Hand of Air to levitate himself. This seed is supposed to mimic Aang's helicopter-like ability to move straight up and down and hang in the air. Also, the main focus of the twinkle toes application (in my opinion) is gaining concealment against tremorsense-based foes. Plus, the bonuses are unnamed, and would stack with each other.


Engulfing Winds: What about something that weighs 80 lbs per level +1 lbs (Updraft)?

Not quite sure what you mean by this. Could you clarify?


Tornado (Capture): Is the height a function of the top width?

The two dimensions are independent of each other, but higher airbending checks increase both dimensions simultaneously.

Omnibi:

Most of these questions should be answered by your individual DM when you worked out the functioning of the form. The forms in the Forms Compendium aren't intended to be 100% canon, but rather to demonstrate how you could use the system.

I can't find Specialized Bending and Form Mastery at the moment for some reason, but the Focused Bending feats only give you a +4 to bending checks related to a specific form. Depending of course on the feats you mentioned, the DC for the maneuver you described would be 54 (4 [combining seeds] + 10 [dust] + 10 [column] +30), with the bender gaining a +8 bonus on the attempt because of Focused Bending.

[dman11235]

In order...

Yeah, I thought it was just the language being stupid.

done.

Well, you don't say that it is resolved as a bull rush, even though that's pretty much what it is. I have no problem with the ability, just the wording which can be abused, I'm sure of it. I'm paranoid like that.

Good maneuverability-hover. Can Aang hover? Didn't think so. At least, I don't remember any instance where he did hover. Or reduce speed at all. Though you might be able to say that the airbender must retain a minimum forward movement to stay aloft, having it be an exception to the rule. But the more I think of it I think he only had average. He didn't turn on a dime (90 degree), he always used an arc (a characteristic of average maneuverability). Average is more maneuverable than you think, and so is good.

Heh.
Ehe.

Heh.

Did you change the wording? Cause I could've sworn it didn't specify Air Blast last night. When I read it last night I thought it could be applied to any form, even Tornado.



Alright.

I realize that Hand of Air isn't powerful enough to levitate yourself, but the point was that it's the same idea, only weaker. It's just so similar, you'd think they'd be the same ability. But since mechanics dictate that they aren't they have to be different forms.

You don't say what happens if something weighs more than 80 lbs per level. What, does it spontaneously turn into potatoes? If nothing happens to those really heavy objects, you at least need to say that they aren't affected.

Right! Because it says "height an top width", not just top width! I can read, really!

[dman11235]

Dude: NEW EPISODES (http://www.sidereel.com/Avatar:_The_Last_Airbender)! Not sure if you knew.

[Darkkwalker]

Actually, in several episodes and during fights Aang hovers.

What he does is blow a bunch of air out of his mouth to slow a fall or to avoid the horizontal slash of a bladed weapon.

[dman11235]

But is that the flight? I don't think it is, I think that's the other form, levitate. The flight is what he uses with his staff.

[Shades of Gray]

Apparently a firebender couldn't firebend in "the cooler" in the burning rock.

So, maybe we should impose a -5 or -10 penalty to firebending in extreme cold, except on using that endure elements seed.

[Pirate_King]

or perhaps the fire in the stomach seed is what allows them to firebend at all in extreme cold.

[dman11235]

That's better than the penalty, because I'd bet that that guy was not a very powerful bender, but a -10 penalty is simultaneously crippling and too easy. You won't find a happy medium there. But requiring a specific seed is...limiting. Unless Fire in the Stomach was granted at a higher class level (I know it's not, but if it was) like level 7.

I know personally I don't want to have to build my character a certain way to not be useless, I'd like there to be variety.

EDIT: I'll be going over the Firebender next. Not sure if it'll be today or tomorrow, but soon. In fact, I'm thinking it'll be tonight that I do it. And probably Tuesday for the Earth.

[dman11235]

Alright, it's time to play with fire!

First off, I'm pretty sure some firebenders are fine in medium armors. Maybe they have a couple fighter levels, but something to consider would be giving them proficiency in all light armors. Maybe medium, but like I said, they could have (and likely did) fighter levels. Or warrior.

Child of the Sun: This is a fairly powerful ability, since daytime is, well, when most campaigns are active. I was fine with the water bender one since night isn't a common adventuring time. Also, where does it indicate in the show that firebenders are more powerful during the day? Same with water for night. I know that the solar eclipse/full moon/comet/lunar eclipse (maybe?) affects them, but just day/night?

Fire Blast: see other blasts. Also, why does it deal half-damage to flammable materials?

Deflect Attack: see others.

Play with Fire: fine.

Firestorm: fine.

Endure Elements: fine.

Energy Resistance: Fine, considering the rest of the class.

Fire Kick: Fine, but not sure why people would use it. Double range, woo-hoo! At level 1 that's a full 45', making it 90'. That's further than all close range spells, and really that's all you ever need. I'd consider just dropping it.

Fire Whip: How come it doesn't have the increase damage bit that Water Whip does? I'd advise putting in an increase damage part to this. Also, what about adding str to damage? If you do, is that fire damage as well?

Explosion: "The explosion also deals on damage..." Is that supposed to be "one"? Also, aren't templates only supposed to be a + to the DC, not a base DC, or is it supposed to be a base DC and you just follow the normal combining seeds rules? Anyways, if it is one dice of damage, is that in addition to the normal, or is it (like it is suggesting) replacing the normal? And is the damage dice fire damage, or something else (bludgeoning or straight damage, probably straight, avoid DR)?

Blades of Fire: Why only one attack per round? It should be able to apply to all of your attacks, even in the first round. At least if you increase the DC to make it a swift action.

Intensity: fine.

Burning Rush: Taking into account the latest episode, I'm thinking a limited form of flight is in order. It looked as though she was flying for a moment, not just jumping with aid. Though I guess it could be jumping with aid, but the force is applied throughout, and not just at the beginning. One thing is for certain, feather fall like effects are in order sometime.

Fire in the Stomach: See previous discussion bits.

Incandesce: I fail to see anything wrong with it, other than the fact that Melt Stone can become really powerful. Also, choose a new name, this isn't a word.

Break Stance: fun.

Breath of the Dragon: fine.

Fireburst: Fine, but can they choose to lower the size of the area? Does it have to be manifested at the maximum area? This goes for all area bendings with this wording.

Wall of Fire: See Fireburst.

Blue Fire: Doesn't a template just add to the DC?

Flamethrower: fine, but why separate the abilities that affect an area?

Lightning: Me likey.

[Ceiling009]

The Child of the Moon/Sun bits are... it's not explicit that firebenders are stronger in the day, but Siege of North Part 2 sort of explained it. While Katara was basically owning Zuko at night, soon as it hit daybreak, zuko was clearly much stronger. But, it's hard to say how much.

[dman11235]

Really? I didn't notice that. I'll have to watch that episode again.

EDIT: Unless you meant a different episode, Katara was only that much better because of the full moon. Not because it was night.

[Ceiling009]

There aren't many particular episodes at night, and outside of mooks, most firebenders in the day time tend to be pretty noteworthy. But it's a lot based with the line "You may rise with the moon, but I rise with the sun!". A +2 sounds powerful, but a smart player of a Waterbender will probably the first one to do scout missions at night, or stand watch. I'd really like to figure out a way to give all benders a +2 depending on the situation, but how would you do that with Earthbenders? Or Air? If there's a storm... for an Airbender maybe a +2... but Aang didn't particularly fare well in storms...

Well.. how about he Painted Lady episode? Katara seemed even more like water ninja at night (though really cause it was dark and she was dressed up), it looks like she was even better then...?

[dman11235]

It's really hard to place those instances as night/not night/etc. I agree that the full moon/comet thing should do something (it's very obvious), but even that +2 for firebenders that no other one will get. And the +2 for water at night. It just doesn't seem fair is all. And not really supported well by the show. And who knows, it could be that those time that Katara was more powerful at night were just coincidence.

Oh, and a +2 goes a long way when you base a class ability off of a skill check. Especially at low levels.

[Mephibosheth]

A couple of quotes to provide evidence for the effect of night/moon on waterbending and the day/sun on firebending:

Season 1, Episode 19 - The Siege of the North: Part I


It's almost twilight, Admiral. As your military consultant I must advise you to halt your attack. The waterbenders draw their power from the moon and it is nearly full tonight.


I've always noticed my waterbending is stronger at night.


You rise with the moon. I rise with the sun.

Season 1, Episode 16 - The Deserter


Feel the heat of the sun. It is the greatest source of fire. Yet, it is in complete balance with nature!

Hope that helps. I'll respond to the rest of your comments tomorrow, dmann.

Mephibosheth

[dman11235]

Points then. But I still don't like the fact that water/fire benders are better than others depending on the time of day. It just feels...tacky. It just doesn't sit right.

[Mephibosheth]

Points then. But I still don't like the fact that water/fire benders are better than others depending on the time of day. It just feels...tacky. It just doesn't sit right.

I understand. It didn't feel right to me at first either. However, the fact that firebending is noticeably more powerful during the day and waterbending is noticeably more powerful at night is the central premise of at least three episodes of the show. Ultimately, I don't think it has to be as big of a deal as you make it out. If anything, it should fall upon the DM to vary the time of encounters/adventures. There are plenty of quests that only happen at night or are usually done at night.

[dman11235]

I know it's not much of a bonus, and the time of day can vary, but it still just doesn't sit right. I can't place it really. Maybe I'm being paranoid again. Who knows, I'm going to sleep now and see if I can make more sense of it tomorrow. Just ignore that part until tomorrow.

[Mephibosheth]

First off, I'm pretty sure some firebenders are fine in medium armors. Maybe they have a couple fighter levels, but something to consider would be giving them proficiency in all light armors. Maybe medium, but like I said, they could have (and likely did) fighter levels. Or warrior.

We had a huge debate about this a while ago. This was the compromise people seemed willing to agree on. I'm with you on the armor issue, but this is the group consensus.


Child of the Sun: This is a fairly powerful ability, since daytime is, well, when most campaigns are active. I was fine with the water bender one since night isn't a common adventuring time. Also, where does it indicate in the show that firebenders are more powerful during the day? Same with water for night. I know that the solar eclipse/full moon/comet/lunar eclipse (maybe?) affects them, but just day/night?

See previous posts. It seems pretty important to the show, so I'm reluctant to jettison it.


Fire Blast: see other blasts. Also, why does it deal half-damage to flammable materials?

I changed the description. It now deals half damage to non-flammable materials instead of flammable ones.


Fire Kick: Fine, but not sure why people would use it. Double range, woo-hoo! At level 1 that's a full 45', making it 90'. That's further than all close range spells, and really that's all you ever need. I'd consider just dropping it.

This seed is a holdover from the version 1.0 benders (which I still haven't gotten around to updating yet :smallredface:). It works better when you don't have a way of extending the range of your blasts built into the system. We've had complaints about its low power before, but I'm reluctant to jettison it completely without the support of more contributors. What says the playground on this issue?


Fire Whip: How come it doesn't have the increase damage bit that Water Whip does? I'd advise putting in an increase damage part to this. Also, what about adding str to damage? If you do, is that fire damage as well?

What if I changed it to have the whip deal Fire Blast damage instead of a set damage amount? Better? Also, I specified that any additional damage is half fire, half slashing. The whips seem to have some physical damaging capabilities. Zuko uses them to cut through stone in one scene.


Explosion: "The explosion also deals on damage..." Is that supposed to be "one"? Also, aren't templates only supposed to be a + to the DC, not a base DC, or is it supposed to be a base DC and you just follow the normal combining seeds rules? Anyways, if it is one dice of damage, is that in addition to the normal, or is it (like it is suggesting) replacing the normal? And is the damage dice fire damage, or something else (bludgeoning or straight damage, probably straight, avoid DR)?

Whoops. Typos. Templates are supposed to be a + to the DC and avoid the +4 required for combining normal seeds. I've fixed it. I also changed the seed so that it simply functions as a Fire Blast (dealing normal damage) that pushes an opponent back. Any objections?


Blades of Fire: Why only one attack per round? It should be able to apply to all of your attacks, even in the first round. At least if you increase the DC to make it a swift action.

That's a good suggestion. What would you suggest by way of a DC increase for allowing multiple attacks?


Burning Rush: Taking into account the latest episode, I'm thinking a limited form of flight is in order. It looked as though she was flying for a moment, not just jumping with aid. Though I guess it could be jumping with aid, but the force is applied throughout, and not just at the beginning. One thing is for certain, feather fall like effects are in order sometime.

I was going to make a new seed similar to the Airbender's Leap seed that gives them a sizeable bonus to Jump checks. I don't want to give firebenders flight unless the show demonstrates it explicitly and without a doubt. I'm not too sure about feather fall either. I've never seen them use firebending to slow down a fall (unless I'm forgetting something).


Incandesce: I fail to see anything wrong with it, other than the fact that Melt Stone can become really powerful. Also, choose a new name, this isn't a word.

I think that's a spelling error. I think it's supposed to be "Incandescence." I'm open to name change suggestions, though.


Fireburst: Fine, but can they choose to lower the size of the area? Does it have to be manifested at the maximum area? This goes for all area bendings with this wording.

I hadn't really thought about that. I've changed the wording. I hope that clears it up.


Blue Fire: Doesn't a template just add to the DC?

Fixed


Flamethrower: fine, but why separate the abilities that affect an area?

Cuz firebenders are kinda short on seeds anyway. Firebenders have a very limited focus, so we had to be creative with some of their abilities. Most often, they just shoot Fire Blasts, but that makes for a very boring class, don't you think? If you have any ideas for new seeds (keeping them grounded in the show, of course), post up!


Lightning: Me likey.

I'm glad. We had a devil of a time figuring out lightening and blue fire. Glad they pass muster.

Thanks again for taking the time to do these analyses. They really help.

Mephibosheth

[dman11235]

Hey, it's what I do.

You know the drill, in order.

Did not realize that there was a debate. Well, like I said, many of the ones that actually wore armor probably had fighter levels too, so it would be hard to adjudicate whether or not they have proficiency. But I would like them to have either light armor on no armor, it's not common at all that a class is trained only in specific armors. And besides, armors are general enough that you count as proficient with others of the same type, even if you only trained with one. Just a personal preference, I like there to be precedence as much as possible.

see debate. Yeah.

Sounds good now.

I say kill it. Not worth keeping as is. If there was something else that it did instead, keep it, but double range is worthless.

You can simplify it a lot by just saying half of the damage is slashing, and half of the damage is fire, and as such is not affected by damage reduction. Feel free to quote that. Note that this would indicate that I would not think it wise to have it deal blast damage, even though that would be a fairly reasonable method. I'd personally prefer something similar to the Water Whip. increase the size of the dice by one for every 4 you add to the DC might work. Though it may be better to use +5. I'll run through some math...Yeah, probably +5. The WW might want to do the same with the WW. But I'm sure the playtesting will sort that out.

Well, what about explosions expelling objects? Gah, what was his name, that explody guy? I'm pretty sure his blasts would be doing half fire/half force, and act as if the Explosive Spell MM feat was applied. And I'm not sure if it's possible to create a fire ball with the current system. That can be a new seed, fire ball (or whatever). And then Explosion can be applied to it. It'll cover an area. Oh, and funny thing, I'm pretty sure he was actually using the spell. It even had a "bead" that flew out and exploded against the first thing it hit.

I'm not sure, it'll take me a bit to go through some of the math and try to balance it. I'll get back to you on that. But first, I think a swift action concentrate w...wait, why not just have it be a standard action to manifest it, and then swift action concentrate. You can use the quicken bending rules to make it manifest faster, and have it last for concentration, all attacks deal fire blast damage as well. Shouldn't be overpowered at all.

Actually, I went back on what I originally said. She was just jumping. But instead of a large boost at the beginning and nothing else, it was a constant stream of smaller aid. though I'm still not sure how she's getting propulsion from that. Anyways, the feather fall thing was just the whole, she appeared to be flying. It wouldn't be a new seep to represent what happened in the show, it would be creative use to create something new.

Okay, Incandescence: It can melt stone. Well, lava deals 20d6/round for total immersion. That's pretty powerful. This is a warning. This ability might be able to be abused. Might want to increase the damage required to the HP of the rock. Which is more than 20 for a 5' cube.

Better.

Okay.

Alright, I've got one...but it's another area thing that you missed. I'll try to think of anything you missed, but I don't think you did. The thing is, if I can create a line of fire, why not a burst of fire? I mean, I can control fire really well, so why not? Why is the technique so different?

Right.

[Ceiling009]

Fire Kick needs an upgrade I think, Firebenders already really have the least seeds... Firekicks have always been larger, and on the whole, been a large surprise for a lot of people who always forget that firebenders can shoot fire from their feet. I think, to make it a viable seed, make it do an extra die of blast damage, that scales. That would be a lot better than range; since range now scales, and from what I can remember, both kicks and punches tend to probably go the same distance; but often the kicks are dodged versus blocked, mostly.

[Pirate_King]

I agree with half fire, half slashing, but not with dealing fireblast damage. that's what adding the intensity template is for.

As for firebenders leap, I just think it's pretty awesome that we put that in before it actually got used in the show, then they did it.

I think firekick should allow firebending seeds and forms to be performed when the hands are full.

Also, I don't know what to call it, but something we've seen Zuko do a few times is send a blast to the floor to throw his opponent off balance, first in his agni kai, and most recently in boiling rock, when a guard came to interrupt him and Mei. I dunno what to call it, but it could allow you to use a firebending check instead of a bluff check for a feint action, or maybe it could be a bit more complicated since it could actually do a bit of damage.

[dman11235]

They must be reading this. That's why they put it in.

Yes on the firekick. But that's still fairly weak. It would work, but it's still a little weak. That can be one half of it though.

As for the throwing someone off balance, that's Stance Breaker or Break Stance.

[Pirate_King]

the way I understood break stance, though, was through force, since you have to hit with at least two fireblasts at -4 to attack, as well as make a 25 on a firebending check to make it happen. I was thinking something a bit more subtle. Firebenders aren't really known for that, but we've seen it, using low firesweeps to trip, a sort of hot-foot kind of thing. maybe just add another application for break stance that's a little easier, and does less? as it is, Break Stance isn't even possible until 6th level, and even then you have to firestorm with a total attack penalty of -6 to get the needed attacks. Sure, the effect of knocking your opponent back 5 ft, making them flat-footed, and possibly forcing them to lose their next turn and still doing a total of 4d6 fire damage is pretty powerful, but is it worth it to try when you're rolling 1d20-2 to attack? what kind of AC are you looking at on your opponents at 6th level?

[dman11235]

Maybe Break Stance needs to be changed a little? It is a little confusing right now.

[Pirate_King]

while I'm doing math, a L20 firebender can do a maximum of 180 damage with lighting, while he can do a maximum of 144 when firestorming, 192 firestorming with blue fire(without rapid shot) lighting takes a round to prepare before you can actually unleash it on a single target, where as fireblasts are immediate, and attacks can be divided amond multiple targets (and doing damage at all doesn't depend on an attack roll) although, is Lightning a reflex half, or an attack roll? it doesn't really specify. It almost reads like an automatic hit. I'm not really sure if these numbers should mean anything significant, they might be fair, considering blue fireblasts don't do more damage than lighting until L20, but I thought I'd bring attention to it, as well as the wording of the lighting seed.

[dman11235]

Lightning is only one shot at full BAB (if it's an attack roll, which it probably should be), where as the Fireblast with Blue Fire is three (or was your math 4?) at lowering attack bonuses each time, not being touch attacks.

[Pirate_King]

Is lightning at touch AC? does that matter with Defense bonus variant?

my math for 4 attacks was with firestorm. yeah, the attacks get progressively less accurate, but theres still a better chance of some of it hitting; lightning is all or nothing. I'm thinking we get rid of the round of preparation, the DC is already pretty high; did Ozai quicken his lightning? I think when Iroh did it slow, it was because he was showing Zuko how to do it. I think keeping it a full-round action is reasonable, but having to wait a whole round before releasing it is a bit much.

[dman11235]

I agree, full round action, release at end of the turn. Or, just have it be like spells with a one round casting time, takes the full round to perform, releases on the next round, but you have a full round's worth of actions. Also, it says nothing of attack method. Should be touch attack. And yes, it does still matter with the defense bonus: defense is less than armor. It'll be 8 more than the average touch AC of a normal monk/bender/etc, but it's still lower than total AC. And heavy armor characters (which still exist) will have the same problems. Also, the first attack even with med BAB is likely to hit. If you want though, you can give a bonus to hit for lightning.

[Pirate_King]

And yes, it does still matter with the defense bonus: defense is less than armor. It'll be 8 more than the average touch AC of a normal monk/bender/etc, but it's still lower than total AC. And heavy armor characters (which still exist) will have the same problems.



Touch attacks are less effective under this system, since most characters’ touch ACs are significantly higher than in a standard game.

defense bonus stacks with touch AC, whereas armor bonus doesn't. Heavy armor characters have the highest defense bonus, anyway. It still goes through DR, but that's it.

[dman11235]

Yes, they are still higher, but the NA still doesn't apply, and heavy armor characters will still have a better AC bonus that the defense bonus, and that will not apply to touch attacks. The point is that they are less effective, but it's still more effective than regular attacks. If only by a couple points. And the characters that benefit from the defense feature will likely have had high touch ACs anyways, so moot point there.

I don't know, I'll run some math later, and see where it leaves us. May want to add a +4 bonus to the attack roll or something for it like I said though.

[Pirate_King]

I think making the whole thing doable in a single round would probably be enough, if touch is still useful.

[Ceiling009]

Firekick...Though theoretically, since fireblasts can be delivered as unarmed strikes, it actually makes firekick less useful; remember unarmed strikes are from any part of the body. So it really needs to be something interesting, but canon. Fire kick could be used for a feint attempt? Often times the kick is just a precursor for a larger blast that's higher up; or like in TBR, there's a two footed kick which seemed to be pretty large, more so than a normal blast. There's also the ubiquitous flying axe kick thing, where the firebender does a forward flip, and the foot and hand land doing a huge fiery flare (look at the opening of the show.) So, either it does something like a feint, or it's a much stronger blast from the foot than a normal blast.

Lightning, since we've seen only two people ever do it; either it's an autohit or a touch attack that has to have an extra to hit modifier (it seriously never misses). Azula almost always takes a full round action, with the shot happening at the end of her full round action, or it happens right before her next turn. The only time it's missed is Ozai's quickened lightning blast...

There are two possible explanations, it's a touch attack, which has a bonus to hit (probably wisdom), if taken as a full round action; otherwise you gain a penalty for quickening it. Or two; it's an autohit (since theoretically you can't actually direct lightning, as mentioned by Iroh), and Zuko has evasion or improved evasion. I'm really liking the first proposition.

[dman11235]

Wait, I thought it was just that the fire can be dealt instead of an unarmed strike or as a blast?

On lightning, good suggestions, but I'll think about more tomorrow. I'm kind of tired and have an early morning, so I'm checking out mentally. I'll think about these thing tomorrow, before I go over Earth (sorry I didn't do it tonight like I said I would).

[Gmmaster42]

I have a question. What about bypassing DR? Not being able to do that would put benders at a disadvantage compare to other characters wouldn't it?

[Ceiling009]

Look to the Non-Canon Thread for issues pertaining to DR bypass, and other things I think that would fit in normally to a more standard DnD game.

[ErrantX]

Well, I've been moderately absent lately, seems new blood has started our rock rolling again.

As far as Lightning goes (we really should just remove the reference Cold Fire under the seed as we've removed Redirect Lightning from it and have it simply just be lightning), by reading it I'd assume it was an autohit that allowed a Reflex save. There are pros and cons to that, obviously, so it definitely should be decided. Keep in mind, we've only seen lLghtning strike it's intended target once, i.e. Azula shooting Aang (the other few times it was manifested at someone it was redirected, see Iroh in 112 & 201 and Zuko in 311). It could very well be an attack roll, but I'd prefer it to be an autohit and allow for a Reflex save. That's how I'd run it, just by looking at it how it's written.

And Fire Kick... while it's a decent seed at low level (to get that range boost), it quickly loses it's luster. That spinning/jumping axe kick that gets done should be part of it... I could see it adding an additional die of damage but then everyone would have it and no one would punch...ever. So I liked the suggestion where someone said it changed up the damage type to half slashing... except then it would be greater subject to DR. Really, what it comes down to is that Fire Kick just isn't all that useful. The only thing I could think of that might make it moderately worth it (but then again, everyone would use it constantly) would be that it also increases the threat range for critical hits with your fire blast. My last idea for a revamp of Fire Kick is that it has a caveat that says it can only be used once per round, adds +1d6 to your Blast damage and improves the threat range for your blast to 18-20/x2. Make the Template have two uses then so it would sorta like this:

Fire Kick (Template)
Base DC: +5
By using a series of quick kicks to propel his Fire Blast, a firebender can greatly increase the range of his abilities.
• Applications: Applying this seed to a Fire Blast doubles the firebender's effective bending range for the purpose of that Fire Blast. The seed also allows the firebender to use his Fire Blasts while his hands are full or immobilized. Note that this template cannot be applied to any form that cannot be performed with the feet (such as by applying another template involving a body part or when stuck in a waterbender’s Steady Stance).
• Axe Kick (DC +20): By delivering a fierce axe kick while firing a Fire Blast, the force of his blast intensifies. Once per round, he may add an additional +1d6 to the Fire Blast's damage and increases the critical threat range of his Fireblast to 18-20/x2.

That's my 2 cents. I'll try not to fade into obscurity anymore.

-X

[Mephibosheth]

Here's what I think about these issues.

Fire Kick:

I agree it needs a powerup. I propose the following:

1. Fire Kick doubles the range of any firebending seed (even AoE seeds). Furthermore, it doubles the range after range increases because of a high firebending check are added. We've seen firebenders use long-range attacks frequently in the show, and it could easily be a huge tactical advantage, especially given that no other bending class has an ability like this.

2. Fire Kick allows the firebender to bend even when his/her hands are full or immobilized. Yes, a firebender can deliver a Fire Blast through an unarmed strike, but not at range. Since all of these classes are essentially ranged combatants (or at least, they're often better at range than at melee), this can be a substantial benefit.

3. I'd be comfortable with a small damage increase, but it should pale in comparison to Blue Fire and Lightening. Maybe +1d6, with the ability to increase that by adding +10 or +15 to the DC for each additional d6. I don't think this should be a heavy damage seed.

Break Stance:

I think I'm going to advocate revamping the seed to make it represent the kind of "shoot fire at the opponent's feet to knock them off balance" move that Zuko uses so frequently. Perhaps something like this:


Unbalancing Blast (Template)
Base DC: +15
By adding +15 to the Firebending DC of a Fire Blast, a bender can attempt to unbalance an opposing bender. The bender takes -4 to attack rolls on these blasts. If the firebender hits with a Fire Blast while using this form, the target must make a Reflex save or be rendered flat-footed and pushed back 5 feet. When using this seed, the firebender's Fire Blasts deal half their normal damage.

Then, I support removing the Break Stance seed from the firebender seed list and making it a feat. We need more feats and when Zuko breaks Commander Zhao’s root in The Warriors of Kyoshi (Season 1, Episode 3), he does so with a simple kick, not a firebending move. Perhaps something like this:


Break Stance [general]
You know how to attack to unbalance a bender, reducing his ability to bend effectively.
Prerequisites: BAB +6, Knowledge (Bending) 3 ranks
Benefit: When executing an unarmed strike or a targeted bending seed, you may attempt to break your opponent's stance and hinder his ability to bend. Attempting to do so requires a successful attack roll at a -4 penalty. If you hit with this attack, your opponent is rendered flat-footed, pushed back 5 feet, and takes a -5 penalty to all Bending skill checks. Additionally, your opponent must make a Reflex save or be considered dazed for one round.
Special: A fighter may select Break Stance as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Lightning:

I'm fine with eliminating the full-round "charging" action and simply making the seed a full-round action. I also think it would work better as a ranged touch attack, but I'm not too attached to that mechanic and will gladly accept the will of the community.

Those are my thoughts, anyways.

Mephibosheth

[Ceiling009]

For Lightning, I prefer the range touch with bonuses, because then redirect lightning makes a little more sense. I don't feel like it's an autohit, cause both Azula and Ozai at least have to aim; or at least direct the lightning a little more than what I think most autohit "spells" require.

About firekick, I was saying to add a little more damage, but I agree with Meph, about the scaling issues; I don't really see it as damaging as blue fire, but the blasts themselves coming from the kicks are always a little bigger.

I like that Break Stance Feat, so that any bender can use it.

[ErrantX]

I like your Break Stance feat and your Unbalancing Blast seed Meph. And here I thought we were all done with seeds ;)

I'd definitely vote those in, I think they make more sense then the current Break Stance seed and the big nothing that non-benders get. Gives Ty Lee something as well as warriors like Suki against benders. Good show.

As far as Lightning, I'd say yes to it simply being a full round action to do, but if we're going to make it an attack roll, I'd say either make it a ranged touch attack (as the lightning arcs around and is so fast that it's harder to dodge) or add Wisdom to the attack roll. I'd prefer to make it a ranged touch attack if it's not an autohit with Reflex save like lightning bolt.

Any thoughts on my proposal for Fire Kick?

-X

[Ceiling009]

I like the proposals. Makes Fire Kick worthwhile. Since there isn't any other way to actually extend the crit range of blasts... in fact, you can't even crit with a blast can you?

If you can't, then well this makes this seed a little too good. But if they're like unarmed strikes (blasts), then they only crit on 20's (can you take improved critical or improved natural weapon or what not?).

[dman11235]

We will never be done with seeds! Never I say! At least, they may change as long as there are still episodes left. And I say we leave the movie out of it and any possible additional episodes that will fall under the shameless sequel category. Only original run counts for canon content. Additional episodes and the movie and any possible subsequent movies are less accurate to the original setting, and this is true for all shows/movies/books/etc., no matter how good they may be.

Anyways, on to the task at hand, I will get to the Earthbender later tonight, after I respond to this new stuff on fire.

I like the idea of break stance being a feat. It's not like it's exactly a new blast, and why can't a waterbender do that? Also, I say don't add that template if you add the feat: too similar.

For lightning, I'd prefer a ranged touch with bonuses. Like Ceiling said, they did have to aim it.

I also agree with Meph. Increased power seems to be the main advantage in the show, and since the bending forms are based off of martial arts, and kicks are more powerful than punches usually, makes sense. Though it'll take a while to figure how much to increase it by. Maybe just 1d6. On a related note, blue fire: does it increase blast damage to d8/d6, or is the dice increase the entire thing (so level 12 would be 6d6, level 8 4d6)? My guess: the first one. If so, it's not very powerful. That's an average of +6 damage at 20, which is not much. The firebender needs quite a bit of work still I guess. Mainly in the math department. I say we return after I finish the Earthbender, that way I can focus on it.

[dman11235]

Let's get to the grit!

Earth blast: same issues as other blasts.

Deflect Attack: see other instances.

Move a Rock: Looks fine.

Climb: you fail to indicate that they gain the climb speed indicated on the chart. Also, I'd be inclined to allow them to just have the climb speed on bendable surfaces, rather than DC 0 surfaces.

Head On Defense: Fine, but it does arrive a little late for something like this (usually stat to ability bonuses happen in the first two levels). Though since it is to reflex saves, it'll work.

Seeds: The DCs are off. At level 1, the DC to escape is 10+wis, or typically 13. That's a 9 or an 8 for someone with EA maxed, and a 10 for the typical high str character. At level 20, it's probably going to be 25 or so. That's auto make for EA maxed, and a 20 for the str guys. This is assuming no magic items, so wis will be 15+5 most. Same with str. Not sure how to fix this, I've already run through some common methods, and they all suck for it (make it worse). I'll get back to you on it, maybe there can be some brain storming.

Dust: Blind: Me no likey. Called shots are a new mechanic, and it's sort of iffy. Also, why not just have it be a touch attack, and allow a reflex save to shut your eyes really fast? I mean, don't you do that when wind blows dust in your eyes? My suggestion: touch attack, no penalty, allow reflex negates, augment with some increase in the DC to increase the reflex save DC (better at manipulating the dust so it's harder to avoid).

Earth Wall: You shouldn't need to call out stone wall. Just specify in the notes section that earth is stone or soil (or any other acceptable material, talk with DM) and refer to the DMG hardness and HP rules to determine these things.
push: you neglect to say what happens if they fail the reflex save.

Column: why can't the column come from the floor, or the wall and crush the opponent into the ceiling or other wall?

Tilt: the balance DC is simultaneously too low and too high. What I mean is, skill check DCs that follow the same formula as saves DCs are way too low. But balance is a skill that people throw 5 ranks at most into, so they will never make the DC. When I figure out the escape artist/str check thing, we can come back to this, likely the same solution will be had.
Twist: wait, so you can either tilt the rock 45 degrees (I assume) or 90 deg? Same DC? Maybe I'm missing something?

Stone Armor: well, specify that they are automatically proficient with the armor they create. I'm not sure what I think of the DR bit. Though you do need to say that it is a +2 bonus to AC, rather than just +2 to AC. Just to be more formal about it. Well, on the one hand it's really easy to get a high DR (by level 20 you're looking at DR 10 easy, and DR in this setting is big), on the other, if you go with a high DR, the duration won't be as long, but battles last for 4-5 rounds at the most (though might be more or less with this system, you guys've played with it, what's the tendency?) so that's a mere -5 or -6. Not that hard to keep up. Maybe if it was -4 for more than 2 rounds, and then -2 for each round after 2 (so 3 rounds is -6, and 2 rounds is no penalty).

Tremorsense: Include a way to eliminate the miss chance with a much higher DC. Like Toph could.

Steady Stance: See the water bender ability for any possible issues.

Create Rubble: I shy away from things that affect specific body parts, but you guys did a nice job with this one. Though are you going to add that the difficult terrain form can make them fall prone? Also, make it more explicit that you are readying an action for misstep. Though it might not be a necessary addition (the whole thing that is, you can already ready a standard action).

Compact: Immediate actions can already be only taken once per round.

Golem: Fine, see the water bender golem for more, and you need to clarify the enhancement thing more. Can a bender with a +5 wis give the golem +5 str and dex or must the +5 be split (I say let it stack).

Earthen Stride: Please clarify this. A lot. Like, a lot. Earth Jump is fine, but I have no idea on half of what the first part even does.

Catapult: fun...

Excavate: But...move a rock. I guess this is simpler, but you can still do this with move a rock.

Earthquake: I fail to find anything wrong with this.

Metalbending: Fine I guess.

Rift: Ah the thing that was missing from earthquake! It's fine.

[Ceiling009]

hmmm... I thought Dust was more like the fog cloud spell, or dust cloud spell?

[dman11235]

That's the first part of Dust. The second part is Blind.

[Pirate_King]

Then, I support removing the Break Stance seed from the firebender seed list and making it a feat. We need more feats and when Zuko breaks Commander Zhao’s root in The Warriors of Kyoshi (Season 1, Episode 3), he does so with a simple kick, not a firebending move. Perhaps something like this:


The initial trip was just a kick, but once Zuko was back on his feet, he sends several sweeping blasts with his feet to keep Zhao off balance. Or do you mean making the original break stance seed a feat and keeping unbalancing blast as a seed? Something I'd like to add to unbalancing blast, perhaps the attacks take only a -2 penalty, or not penalty, if the bender has the improved trip feat. (though, I don't think an attack penalty is necessary if it's only doing half damage)

Dust represents what Toph did at the end of Blind Bandit, right?

[dman11235]

I agree with Pirate on that. Though I'll have to look at those seeds again.

And I wouldn't know, it's been, oh, a year since I've seen that episode?

[Pirate_King]

You know that perfect crime of killing someone with an ice sickle and no one would be able to find the murder weapon? I've come up with a feat while creating a waterbending rogue npc for my summer campaign:

insert awesome name for sneaky ice attacks
Prerequisites: ability to use sneak attack, the ice shards seed, water bending 6 ranks, knowledge (bending) 6 ranks
Benefit: A character may apply sneak attack damage when attacking with the ranged option for ice shards seed. Only the iceshards seed may be used; it can't be combine to create another form, and only when ice shards is being used against a single target. As normal, all sources of sneak attack damage stack.

overpowered? should I up the prereq's?

I like the feat version of break stance, but does it really need a knowledge bending prereq now that it's a general feat?

[Ceiling009]

Actually, the feat Point Blank Blast, would do the same thing. Since you can combine ice shards and blast, and with that feat, blast can carry precision based damage (ie sneak attack), within in 30ft, it works pretty well like that I think.

Also, break stance, I think it would require a little knowledge of bending, since I think all styles have a implicit root, which if you know how can be broken.

So I was thinking about same form stacking. Like someone asked a while back about stacking blasts (you can easily stack three at low levels). I'm thinking it should be explicitly stated within the bending overview that you can stack things with a larger increase in DC, not the +4 for stacking different seeds, but maybe a +6 or +8 to the DC so as not be able to abuse it.

Also, about precision damage on blasts; without the feat Point Blank Blast, how would let's say a firebender's unarmed strike blast work for crits? Same as an unarmed strike? Also, could you up the critical of a blast or form?

[dman11235]

I say no bending prereqs for Break Stance. Even though Zuko was the only one I remember using it, that doesn't he's the only one capable. And since no bending is required, anyone should be able to do it. And I say aim for level 6 availability.

[Pirate_King]

aw. Everytime I think I come up with something cool (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3720242&postcount=819), someone comes along and says it's already possible (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3727225&postcount=841)

definitely clarifies point blank blast for me, though. I was kind of confused, since point blank shot could theoretically be applied to a blast since it counts as an exotic ranged weapon.
Edit: the prereq for PBB is +6 BAB, which a water/rogue character wouldn't have until character level 8, making my feat a bit more viable. The power at low level should be balanced by the fact that it only works with ice shards.



Also, break stance, I think it would require a little knowledge of bending, since I think all styles have a implicit root, which if you know how can be broken.


but all styles have a root, even non-bending styles, and the ability can be used against opponents who don't have bending skills. knowledge of a specific bending ability might make it easier against some opponents, but the knowledge is only so relevant to the ability in general.

[dman11235]

It's not exactly a bending specific root, or even a martial art root that allows you to "break stance". You know, saying that, I think it's just feinting. Wow, we don't even need a new feat. Improved Feint will allow you do feint as a move action, and that's about what he did all those times.

With form stacking, isn't it that you add the two DCs together and then add 4? If so, at level one you'd be hard pressed to add three together, for a minimum DC of 19 (5 is the lowest DC, times 3+4). And adding a DC 10 templateis right out. That is, if you actually had three forms, which you don't until level 4.

[Mephibosheth]

Climb: you fail to indicate that they gain the climb speed indicated on the chart. Also, I'd be inclined to allow them to just have the climb speed on bendable surfaces, rather than DC 0 surfaces.

Fixed


Seeds: The DCs are off. At level 1, the DC to escape is 10+wis, or typically 13. That's a 9 or an 8 for someone with EA maxed, and a 10 for the typical high str character. At level 20, it's probably going to be 25 or so. That's auto make for EA maxed, and a 20 for the str guys. This is assuming no magic items, so wis will be 15+5 most. Same with str. Not sure how to fix this, I've already run through some common methods, and they all suck for it (make it worse). I'll get back to you on it, maybe there can be some brain storming.

I'd be interested in seeing what you come up with on this. We discussed this issue, looking for a way to make immobilization seeds useful but not auto-wins, and this was the best system we could think of. Ultimately, though, if a character invests heavily in Strength or Escape Artist, I'm OK with them being able to break out. I can't really think of a better way. Maybe just starting at a higher level (using 15+1/2 class level+Wis)...


Dust: Blind: Me no likey. Called shots are a new mechanic, and it's sort of iffy. Also, why not just have it be a touch attack, and allow a reflex save to shut your eyes really fast? I mean, don't you do that when wind blows dust in your eyes? My suggestion: touch attack, no penalty, allow reflex negates, augment with some increase in the DC to increase the reflex save DC (better at manipulating the dust so it's harder to avoid).

I'm fine with that. I'll make the change. How does +1 to the DC for every 5 points by which the Earthbending check exceeds the DC sound?


Earth Wall: You shouldn't need to call out stone wall. Just specify in the notes section that earth is stone or soil (or any other acceptable material, talk with DM) and refer to the DMG hardness and HP rules to determine these things.
push: you neglect to say what happens if they fail the reflex save.

I think that Stone Wall is there mostly for ease of reference. I'm going to keep it in. It can't hurt, after all.

I clarified the Push application. I think it may just have been a copy/paste oversight or a strange sentence construction on the part of whoever originally drafted the seed.


Column: why can't the column come from the floor, or the wall and crush the opponent into the ceiling or other wall?

It can. The seed says, "An earthbender thrusts a column of earth from the ceiling above, the ground below or a wall beside a creature."


Tilt: the balance DC is simultaneously too low and too high. What I mean is, skill check DCs that follow the same formula as saves DCs are way too low. But balance is a skill that people throw 5 ranks at most into, so they will never make the DC. When I figure out the escape artist/str check thing, we can come back to this, likely the same solution will be had.
Twist: wait, so you can either tilt the rock 45 degrees (I assume) or 90 deg? Same DC? Maybe I'm missing something?

How 'bout a Balance check DC 10+class level+Wis instead of 10+1/2 class level+Wis? Reward characters a little for investing some ranks in Balance while simultaneously being not too difficult.

I'm also not too worried about the DC for the Twist application. It really doesn't do anything all that overpowering.


Stone Armor: well, specify that they are automatically proficient with the armor they create. I'm not sure what I think of the DR bit. Though you do need to say that it is a +2 bonus to AC, rather than just +2 to AC. Just to be more formal about it. Well, on the one hand it's really easy to get a high DR (by level 20 you're looking at DR 10 easy, and DR in this setting is big), on the other, if you go with a high DR, the duration won't be as long, but battles last for 4-5 rounds at the most (though might be more or less with this system, you guys've played with it, what's the tendency?) so that's a mere -5 or -6. Not that hard to keep up. Maybe if it was -4 for more than 2 rounds, and then -2 for each round after 2 (so 3 rounds is -6, and 2 rounds is no penalty).

I changed the seed so that increasing the DR by 1 requires a +4 bump to the DC, not +3. Hopefully that makes it a bit more manageable.

In my experience, combats tend to be a bit longer in this system because total possible damage outputs are lower and there are far fewer auto-win abilities. Even abilities like the waterbender's Wave/Freeze combo don't automatically result in victory.


Tremorsense: Include a way to eliminate the miss chance with a much higher DC. Like Toph could.

I don't know if I support this change. I view Toph as more of an exception than the rule, and don't think that Toph-like blindsight should be available to the run-of-the-mill earthbender. I've advocated a character trait that enhances her tremorsense in the past, but haven't really received a lot of feedback.


Create Rubble: I shy away from things that affect specific body parts, but you guys did a nice job with this one. Though are you going to add that the difficult terrain form can make them fall prone? Also, make it more explicit that you are readying an action for misstep. Though it might not be a necessary addition (the whole thing that is, you can already ready a standard action).

Fixed


Compact: Immediate actions can already be only taken once per round.

Just trying to be thorough. :smallwink:


Golem: Fine, see the water bender golem for more, and you need to clarify the enhancement thing more. Can a bender with a +5 wis give the golem +5 str and dex or must the +5 be split (I say let it stack).

An earthbender can increase both.


Earthen Stride: Please clarify this. A lot. Like, a lot. Earth Jump is fine, but I have no idea on half of what the first part even does.

Yeah, I got nothing. Is the author of this seed still around? Can anyone clarify?

I hope that helps. I'll address other issues (esp. firebender-related issues) later.

Mephibosheth

[Pirate_King]

Yeah, I got nothing. Is the author of this seed still around? Can anyone clarify?


Without actually reading the seed, I get the image of toph doing her thing in guru/crossroads of destiny after having escaped once she discovered metal bending. I was thinking effectively an earth version of wave. reminder, I haven't actually checked the seed as written, that's just what I think it should be based on what we see in the show.

[Mephibosheth]

Without actually reading the seed, I get the image of toph doing her thing in guru/crossroads of destiny after having escaped once she discovered metal bending. I was thinking effectively an earth version of wave. reminder, I haven't actually checked the seed as written, that's just what I think it should be based on what we see in the show.

No, I get what the seed is trying to represent. I just don't get the mechanic it's using. It involves multiplying the base speed (or base running speed, not sure which) by something to determine how quickly a character can move with the seed, and it's very confusing. I was hoping the original author could clarify so we can work out some clearer language.

[dman11235]

Again, in order.

done.

I'll do it later. I need to make pasta now. Curse you for not being online a half hour earlier! And of course, that's if I actually think of something. The increased DC was one of the things I thought of, as there is precedence in the spider's webs and such, they get a +4 racial bonus to the DC. But it doesn't fix the fact that the str check DC is way too high.

I'm thinking +1 DC per 4 may even be fine. Though I'll have to do some math. Either +4 or +5.

Looks fine then.

I could have sworn it didn't say that last night. When I read it, the only reference to being able to do it in any direction was in the fluff.

My point on twist was, well, why would you ever do tilt? Twist will automatically drop them off. Also, manipulate the earth under them, carry them over to where you want to drop them, and drop them using Move a Rock. On the balance DC, like I said, I'll tackle that along with the general one. Actually, look at Grease. Have the DC be 10+1/2 level+wis and then after the initial drop the DC is as set by the DMG on terrain.

Looks better now.

She's really the only one who exhibited this ability, so it's hard to tell. She's also the only one who ever really needed it. Also, you have the lie detection bit, which requires as much, if not more, accuracy. And remember: Toph is extremely powerful. The DC could just be really high.

Done.

Done.

My point was, the wording is a little ambiguous.

Yeah, I have no idea what's it's supposed to be doing. I get that it makes you fast...I think.

[Ceiling009]

Remember, for most fighters, Bluff is a not a class skill, so actually feinting is sort of useless (not to mention they don't get enough skill points to actually use it). Hmm... Make breakstance have a like a +3 Bab requirement for Breakstance, since it's something a a better trained fighter should or could know. Also, I'm okay with point blank blast have a +6 bab (which might have been an artifact of firebenders having full BAB), but I could see the requirement lowered down to +4 BaB.

[Pirate_King]

I've asked this in another thread, but no one answered...

is there a comprehensive list somewhere of exactly what counts as precision based? so far, I only know sneak attacks and favored enemy bonuses.

[Mephibosheth]

is there a comprehensive list somewhere of exactly what counts as precision based? so far, I only know sneak attacks and favored enemy bonuses.

As far as I know, sneak attack (Rogue, any number of other sources), skirmish (Scout), and sudden strike (Ninja) count as precision-based damage. Incidentally, I think that a Ranger's favored enemy bonus does not. Precision-based damage is effectively anything that creatures immune to critical hits are immune to, as far as I can tell. The three listed above are the big three.

[Ceiling009]

Well apart from those big three, it also means you can't crit right? Cause precision damage means hitting a vital spot; so without point blank blast, all non-weapon forms can't actually crit can they?

[dman11235]

Favored Enemy isn't precision based.

And no, I think you can still crit, but it's kind of iffy. I don't know. I'll think about it more after dinner.

Adding to the list: the Craven feat. And I think there's some more, but I don't know, I'll look into the various sources.

[ErrantX]

Earthen Stride as written
• Running Snail: By shaping crude hemisphere of soil or mud around you feets and moving these swirly ''stilts'' like snails, or by sculpting yourself a stone tower as a full-round action, travelling is not bothersome anymore, nor enemy troops. You may now only move at your running speed, plus one time the normal speed bonus per 5 points you beat the DC. You may make overun attempts normally, and if you add +5 the DC of this seed, opponents may not try to avoid you. Your bulk and the earth you displace means you are one size larger than before, and you gain an additional bonus equal to +1 per 5 points of your check. You may use forced march while running, but must make constitution checks normally, to which you gain a bonus equal to +1 per 5 points of your check. You only have to do one check per hour to maintain the seed.

• Running Snail: By shaping crude hemisphere of soil or mud around you feet and moving these swirly ''stilts'' like snails, or by sculpting yourself a stone tower as a full-round action, the earthbender may now move for extended periods of time at an accelerated rate. The earthbender may now move at his base movement as if he were possessed the Run feat for 1 minute per earthbender level. The earthbender may improve his base speed by +10ft by increasing the DC of the form by +10. While moving in this manner, the earthbender is also considered a Large creature for the purposes of Overrun actions. When utilizing this power to make a forced march, the earthbender receives a circumstance bonus equal to the character's earthbender level.

I didn't write Running Snail (I think?), but that's my attempt. How's that for a clarification/rewrite?

-X

Edit: Fixed some of the wording per suggestions from dman11235.

[dman11235]

Here's what I think on the precision based stuff: either get rid of the crits or get rid of the feat and allow precision based damage from the get go. Really, what's the issue going to be balance wise?

For the running snail, how about just saying that you have the benefits of the Run feat while it's manipulated. It also needs a duration. One minute/BL? And for the bonus to forced march, just state that they get a bonus on concentration checks made for forced marching equal to their BL, rather than stating that they can (which the can if they can run).

[Ceiling009]

I don't know about removing either. I think it was understood that bender blasts can't crit (though I think Warlock blasts can), which kinda hampers them quite a bit (later in game I think, though seriously, at least 3 blasts of 5d6 or more per round really sort of balances it out), but the feat, I think needs it's BaB prereq lowered to +4, so that you can get the feat at least by level 6; or not much later if you're multi-classing. Also, since that blasts can't crit, that means even forms like Ice Shards can't actually crit, unless you've made a weapon with them; either daggers or short swords (yes I still believe that a waterbender should be allowed to make any melee and throw able weapon). Unless of course, you take point blank blast. It requires a feat investment, so the ability to crit versus something like extra seed becomes a real important choice.

[ErrantX]

Edited Running Snail a few posts back, check it out.

As far as blasts/precision damage, blasts can score critical hits (just like warlock blasts), and in theory there is reference in the show to this effect, example being in 208 The Chase when the Gaang corners Azula and she flips off a fire blast at Iroh and takes him down in one blast; if that's not a critical hit I don't know what is. Precision damage is explicitly mentioned in the blasts and that's where the feat comes in. Dai Li are specifically trained to be able to add precision damage to all of their earth blasts, as per Grasp of the Dai Li. They fire their stony fists/finger tips like cannon balls and bullets, very precise if you ask me.

-X

[Ceiling009]

Nope, blasts from what I remember when this started, was that they aren't able to crit at all. That's why Point Blank Blast was proposed and subsequently added in, due to the part where Azula basically speared Iroh with a lightning blast. And I think in the old Dai Li (1.0) write up, they also got special precision damage to their blasts, it was kinda weird (but in 1.0 I think blasts critted like warlocks). So I think it really needs to be explicitly stated somewhere that blasts can crit on a natural 20, and the feat Point Blank Blast, allows someone to add sneak attack, skirmish, or other extra precision based damage to the blast.

Also, thinking about this, though I think this should be in the Non-Canon content, how about feats to emulate weapon enhancements like wounding or keen?

Oh yeah, in the awakening, was it steam or was it mist that Katara managed to summon forth to give them cover?

[Pirate_King]

I'm pretty sure we've allowed crits for blasts in the playtest battles....

[dman11235]

Skipping everything really, except Earth Runner and the non-canon feats. I'll just watch the debate for now.

Running Whatever looks fine now, I don't think anything's missing.

Feats will be more heavily discussed in the non-canon section, but what about epic feats like Vorpal Strike and Keen Strike are for unarmed fighters? I decided that allowing weapon enhancements other than a +x would not be balanced, and wouldn't make sense. Though we can still debate it. See you over there.

[Pirate_King]

Have you looked at the non-magical item enhancement thread? it's got a number of viable weapon and armor enhancements that seem pretty valid and possible in a non-magic world.

[dman11235]

??? What thread is this?

[Pirate_King]

the link in my sig goes to the hub for this project, theres a link to items and machinery, and you can get to the enhancement system from there. alternately, meph has been compiling stuff here (http://avatar.d20.googlepages.com/home). This is rather long-lived project, I only came in half way through.

[dman11235]

Oh! I thought you were referring to something completely different. I'll get to the items and stuff after feats. And before monsters. But I should say that classes and PrCs are my specialty, I don't have anywhere near as much experience with feats, items, and monsters. I can still catch some errors though.

EDIT: But not until after I get some work done on my project. I want my project done in...three weeks. Not that it will be.

[Guyr Adamantine]

No, I get what the seed is trying to represent. I just don't get the mechanic it's using. It involves multiplying the base speed (or base running speed, not sure which) by something to determine how quickly a character can move with the seed, and it's very confusing. I was hoping the original author could clarify so we can work out some clearer language.

:smallredface: This is awkward... I wrote Running Snail, and I failed at clearly explaining it. Here's a more in-depth description:

• Running Snail: By shaping crude hemisphere of soil or mud around you feets and moving these swirly ''stilts'' like snails, or by sculpting yourself a stone tower as a full-round action, travelling is not bothersome anymore, nor enemy troops.(It is activated as a full-round action.) You may now only move at your running speed, and the benefits of the Run feat(You can only move at running speed, and you gain the benefits of the Run feat. If you already had it, you running speed while using Running Snail is six time higher instead of five times, as per Run.), plus one time the normal speed bonus per 5 points you beat the DC.You may make overun attempts normally, and if you add +5 the DC of this seed, opponents may not try to avoid you. Your bulk and the earth you displace means you are one size larger than before, and you gain an additional bonus equal to +1 per 5 points of your check to your overrun attempt. You may use forced march while using Running Snail, but must make constitution checks normally, to which you gain a bonus equal to +1 per 5 points of your check. You only have to do one check per hour to maintain the seed.

Bolded parts are either corrections or explanations. I know ErrantX did a new one, but I hope you consider simply correcting (And simplifying) mine and its wording.

BTW: I'm back baby! I couldn't post for a while, but I'm to annoy you all once again!

Tremblez devant mon anglais parfois peu clair!:smallwink:

[dman11235]

Hey, I always take the original and fix it rather than a new one. Unless the original is so bad you might as well start over (which is what it was).

You fail to address some of the more confusing aspects of the seed. What the heck does "plus one time the normal speed bonus per 5 points you beat the DC." mean?

[Guyr Adamantine]

Hey, I always take the original and fix it rather than a new one. Unless the original is so bad you might as well start over (which is what it was).

You fail to address some of the more confusing aspects of the seed. What the heck does "plus one time the normal speed bonus per 5 points you beat the DC." mean?

Ah, but that refers to the line before, that ''you gain the benefits of the Run feat''. What does Run do? It bosst your running speed from 4x to 5x your base speed. Running Snail only augment it further. So, for example, with a 27 Earthbending check, your run speed would be 6x your base speed. With 30 check, it would be 7x, etc...

[dman11235]

I would change that to be a flat boost in base land speed instead, a +5 foot bonus to base land speed. At least change the wording to "the multiplier increases by" rather than saying plus one time, which indicates a measure of, well, time.

I'll deal with it more later, I've got other work to do.

[Pirate_King]

Ah, but that refers to the line before, that ''you gain the benefits of the Run feat''. What does Run do? It bosst your running speed from 4x to 5x your base speed. Running Snail only augment it further. So, for example, with a 27 Earthbending check, your run speed would be 6x your base speed. With 30 check, it would be 7x, etc...

you should probably cap that somewhere.

[Guyr Adamantine]

you should probably cap that somewhere.

Since this system doesn't *seem* to cap any seed, I'd rather not. But, the most logical way to retaliate to this problem is to hamper the bender. Say it augments at higher checks than slices of 5 (10, for example.) and it should be ok.

[Pirate_King]

I can't think of any others at the moment, but the firebending seed intensity adds a maximum of the firebenders fireblast damage to a source of fire.

[s3phr4q]

I know this is a bit off topic from what you have been speaking about, but I believe it's a very important, yet easy thing to do - In the "Overbending" section it mentions a bender has the choice to force the bending. I have no problem with this, except I believe this should be declared before the roll/bending check.

This way you don't have people randomly going "Oh, I missed it by 1 DC... GRRR... ok, I'll just choose to force it anyway" This mitigates that issue by forcing them to choose if the character would force the action through their will before they attempt the bend (as one would probably choose to do in the midst of combat). This also addresses the idea that if an attack would have devastated someone, yet it was only missed by 1 DC, and forcing the action makes or breaks the fight - it makes it so you choose to take the forceful action BEFORE you know if you were successful or not. (Maybe this is just my personal preference, but I think it's lame if you can choose AFTER you roll.)

There's also one more issue that might need to be addressed here - it doesn't say anything about forcing moves that one DOES NOT KNOW... although I assume this is covered elsewhere, since it is not explicitly stated in this section some might try to use it as a loop hole to do some AWESOME BENDING without the character skill or knowledge to do so... Basically, I'm just trying to avoid argument between someone's misinterpretation as a player and the DM.

Anyway, that's an initial thought. Hope it helps.

s3phr4q

[Pirate_King]

There's also one more issue that might need to be addressed here - it doesn't say anything about forcing moves that one DOES NOT KNOW... although I assume this is covered elsewhere, since it is not explicitly stated in this section some might try to use it as a loop hole to do some AWESOME BENDING without the character skill or knowledge to do so... Basically, I'm just trying to avoid argument between someone's misinterpretation as a player and the DM.

Anyway, that's an initial thought. Hope it helps.

s3phr4q

...huh? there's a seeds known list, a character can only do the seeds that they know, is that what you're talking about?

as for overbending before knowing the roll, DM's always got the last call, just make it clear when you run the thing. it's a perfectly reasonable house rule, but it's not necessarily cheese when you can decide to just fail a check, or push further for the cost of fatigue or more; it's a question of whether you just let the move drop or push a bit harder. the martial artists who have worked on this setting have made a pretty convincing argument.

[Guyr Adamantine]

Overbending can hurt a lot, considering the DCs some Forms can take.

If you can bring more points, perhaps it could be modified.


BTW: Has any of you tried to put an ''Avatar d20'' search on Google? We're the frickin 4th on the list!:smallfrown: I mean, am I the only guy who thinks it sucks that this project, the most developped and interesting, get beat to the 4th place by the Wizard Forums' poorly thought homebrew?:smallfurious: (All the classes are a monk rip-off! Their Airbender gets Flurry of Blows, for God's sake! How can they sleep at night?)

[Darkbane]

Well, right now we're third on the list. Send out more threads! Consume the wizards homebrew! Mwahahahaha!

Although yeah, that does suck.

[Pirate_King]

BTW: Has any of you tried to put an ''Avatar d20'' search on Google? We're the frickin 4th on the list!:smallfrown: I mean, am I the only guy who thinks it sucks that this project, the most developped and interesting, get beat to the 4th place by the Wizard Forums' poorly thought homebrew?:smallfurious: (All the classes are a monk rip-off! Their Airbender gets Flurry of Blows, for God's sake! How can they sleep at night?)

I've been looking over the pdf for their version, and it's got an easier to use but considerably less versatile system. It's kind of nifty on it's own, but doesn't seem to be true to the show in some aspects. The way the chi system works is pretty limiting; some of the basic abilities we have been attributing to manipulate(like move earth or open flame) are given their own chi power. Some powers (stone speak? wtf?) don't even make any sense. it's as though they got the element concept and left the rest of the show alone.
Basically, their system creates monks who have access to what are essentially spells, and chi points seem to work like spell points that can regenerate in a couple hours. I can't quite tell how balanced it is by reading it, but for the most part it seems like an interesting system, but does not deserve to be called "Avatar" because of some of it's extremely non-canon chi powers. They've basically made bending more like magic than it should be.

[Ceiling009]

I think the WotC version... it's really ground more into base mechanics. I really like either warlock version, or the current version a lot more (the gitp version), due to how for people who have watched the show, and want to play, it allows a lot more the... as one my players wanted to do... "freeze their pants solid" type things.

[dman11235]

I did some work on that version, and it has its pluses and its minuses over this system. For one, it's not a skill based mechanic, which is a plus (see Truenamer for a really good example of why skill based mechanics rarely if ever work). Truth be told, that is the biggest problem with this system. However, the other system has a terrible chi mechanic. It's so untrue to the show it's not even funny. Well, okay, it's a little funny. Point is, their system doesn't work very well at all. BTW, it's quite underpowered. The chi points are too limited. If there were more per time frame, it would be better.

Also, I get this project as the second one down. Well, third if you count the indented result.

[Guyr Adamantine]

Please excuse me dman11235, my post may have rubbed you the wrong way. Since you participated in it, perhaps I looked a real ass. I agree a skill-based system isn't the best way to work a class, but it helps for a free-form system. I think that the DCs being in the hands of the players prevents the classes from becoming ''Truenamer Wannabees'' kind of failure.


It's so untrue to the show it's not even funny. Well, okay, it's a little funny. Point is, their system doesn't work very well at all. BTW, it's quite underpowered. The chi points are too limited. If there were more per time frame, it would be better.
These classes' feat dependency makes me cry too.

[dman11235]

Not at all. I didn't make it, I just helped review it a little bit (like I do with all homebrews I take under my wing). In fact, I agree with you on pretty much everything you said.

Do note that while skill based mechanics are really hard to get to work, this mechanic is a long shot ahead of the WotC version. At first I was wary of this project, because it was more complex, but then after I read through it all, well, it turns out it's much smoother than the other one. You guys did a pretty dang good job with this one. Within the setting there is no problem, and outside of the setting there is the issue of competence bonus rings, but that at least isn't a necessity in order to function well. It'll just make you really powerful. And that's not really an issue, since everyone else will also have more magic items to use, and it all gets better, so there's probably no problem there either.

EDIT: What feat dependency? I don't see much of a feat dependency with these classes.

[Pirate_King]

yeah, I wouldn't say we're dependent on the feats. most of the bending feats (aside from the study feats) seem more appropriate for multi-class benders, anyway.

[Guyr Adamantine]

:smallsmile: Good then.


EDIT: What feat dependency? I don't see much of a feat dependency with these classes.

All the interesting abilities are feats, and you only get 3 bonus during your career, so you have to shoot yourself in the foot to get more dashing powers.

(''Feat Dependency'' probably isn't the right term, so perhaps we could call it ''Crap-Tastic Ability Nerfing''. Way better.)

[dman11235]

I think that these classes are perfectly dependent on feats. They can live without them, so the feats they choose help define the character, rather than make the character possible (or viable). I mean, I can make a decent bending character without using any feats what so ever. Now I can add feats from here and make him more unique. Perfect balance right there.

[Guyr Adamantine]

:smallconfused:Are we talking of the WotC's benders?

[dman11235]

No, our benders. The WotC benders are extremely feat dependent iirc.

[Guyr Adamantine]

No, our benders. The WotC benders are extremely feat dependent iirc.

It's what I meant the whole time. You see:



It's so untrue to the show it's not even funny. Well, okay, it's a little funny. Point is, their system doesn't work very well at all. BTW, it's quite underpowered. The chi points are too limited. If there were more per time frame, it would be better.
These classes' feat dependency makes me cry too.
I only wanted to add to your critic by pointing how feat dependent they are. Our bender rocks.

[Pirate_King]

ah. well, then we have spent eight posts arguing over something we agree on.

:smallredface:This happens to me far too often...

[Mephibosheth]

*Lassoes thread. Hauls it back on track*

I just want to confirm a few things before I edit the website.

First, are people in favor of the following version of Fire Kick?


Fire Kick (Template)
Base DC: +10
By using quick and powerful kicks to propel his Fire Blast, a firebender can greatly increase the range and power of his abilities.
• Applications: Applying this seed doubles the firebender's effective bending range for the purpose of that firebending seed. This range increase takes effect after determining the firebender’s bending range based on a high Firebending skill check. The seed also allows the firebender to use his Fire Blasts while his hands are full or immobilized. Note that this template cannot be applied to any form that cannot be performed with the feet (such as by applying another template involving a body part or when stuck in a waterbender’s Steady Stance). Finally, the damage dealt by the seed increases by +1d6 when Fire Kick is applied. This bonus to damage increases by +1d6 for every 15 by which a firebender’s skill check exceeds the base DC.

Second, are people in favor of eliminating the Break Stance firebending seed and replacing it with the following feat?


Break Stance [general]
You know how to attack to unbalance a bender, reducing his ability to bend effectively.
Prerequisites: BAB +6, Knowledge (Bending) 3 ranks
Benefit: When executing an unarmed strike or a targeted bending seed, you may attempt to break your opponent's stance and hinder his ability to bend. Attempting to do so requires a successful attack roll at a -4 penalty. If you hit with this attack, your opponent is rendered flat-footed, pushed back 5 feet, and takes a -5 penalty to all Bending skill checks. Additionally, your opponent must make a Reflex save or be considered dazed for one round and take a -4 penalty to checks made to resist trip, bull rush, or overrun attempts.
Special: A fighter may select Break Stance as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Third, are people in favor of the following version of Earthen Stride?


Earthen Stride
Base DC: 20
By lifting the ground under your feets into two mounds of soil or a huge rock, you gain considerable speed and inertia, changing into an unstoppable juggernaut.
• Running Snail: By shaping crude hemisphere of soil or mud around her feet and moving these swirly ''stilts'' like snails, the earthbender may now move for extended periods of time at an accelerated rate. Forming these “stilts” is a full-round action. The earthbender may now run for 1 minute per earthbender level. Additionally, the earthbender’s running speed is increased as if she had the Run feat. The earthbender may improve her base speed by +10ft by increasing the DC of the form by +10. While moving in this manner, the earthbender is also considered a Large creature for the purposes of Overrun actions. When utilizing this power to make a forced march, the earthbender receives a circumstance bonus equal to the character's earthbender level to Constitution checks to continue the forced march.
• Earth Jump: Using this seed, an Earthbender can transport herself through the earth to any point within 25 feet. The Earthbender’s starting and ending points must be connected by a contiguous area of earth or stone at least 5 feet thick at all points. For every 5 by which the Earthbender’s skill check exceeds the base DC, the distance she can travel increases by 5 feet. Additionally, by increasing the base DC by 20, an Earthbender can use this seed as a Move action.

On the overbending issue brought up by s3phr4q, I’m fine with requiring a player to declare before rolling whether his/her character will overbend in the event of a failure. What says the group?

Finally, when I search avatar d20 on google, the discussion threads for this project come up second and the website comes up 8th. If you search “avatar d20” (quotes being the key difference), our project discussion threads come up first and the website comes up 4th (discounting indented results). I’m always interested in any input for search engine optimization to improve our website’s google result. Feel free to post them, PM me, or email the site’s email address. Bear in mind that I have no knowledge of html or other coding languages, which is why I’m using googlepages instead of simply making our own webpage.

Mephibosheth

[Guyr Adamantine]

*Lassoes thread. Hauls it back on track*
:smallredface:Sorry for the derailing, Meph.


I just want to confirm a few things before I edit the website.

First, are people in favor of the following version of Fire Kick?
Looks good on paper, we'll have to check the math in play.



Second, are people in favor of eliminating the Break Stance firebending seed and replacing it with the following feat?
I like it that way, it brings new options to all benders.


Third, are people in favor of the following version of Earthen Stride?
:smallannoyed:I'll go with the other votes. (You've kicked my baby out you bastard!)

:smallwink:


On the overbending issue brought up by s3phr4q, I’m fine with requiring a player to declare before rolling whether his/her character will overbend in the event of a failure. What says the group?
I say yes. Small steps on the path of balance makes a long way.


Finally, when I search avatar d20 on google, the discussion threads for this project come up second and the website comes up 8th. If you search “avatar d20” (quotes being the key difference), our project discussion threads come up first and the website comes up 4th (discounting indented results). I’m always interested in any input for search engine optimization to improve our website’s google result. Feel free to post them, PM me, or email the site’s email address. Bear in mind that I have no knowledge of html or other coding languages, which is why I’m using googlepages instead of simply making our own webpage.

Mephibosheth
On mine, this project is third on the list, after the WotC projects.

[dman11235]

I'm on board with that Fire Kick, Break Stance, and Earthen Stride.

I say let the benders decide afterwards whether or not to overbend. I mean, it's kind of like lifting weights, if something is too much for you to lift properly, you can still go ahead and do it or you can drop the weight. If you go ahead and do it, you put a large strain on your heart and muscles, potentially causing harm.

[Darkbane]

I'm on board with Fire Kick, Break Stance, and Earthen Stride.

Re Overbending, I think I actually prefer letting benders choose to overbend after they know they failed and by how much.

[Pirate_King]

ditto on the Fire Kick and Earthen Stride, though wasn't there a suggestion of firekick having a higher threat range? (and what was the final word on blasts critting at all? I was sure we've allowed it before...)

I think overbending should stay as written, and the rule takes little enough space that a variant clause could be added should the DM consider it unbalanced.

[dman11235]

On crits: if we don't allow precision damage, I'd strongly advise not allowing crits. If we allow crits, I'd strongly advise allowing precision damage as well. There is no precedence for having something allow crits but no precision based damage. And what will it hurt to allow precision based damage, multi-classing hurts you?

[Mephibosheth]

On crits: if we don't allow precision damage, I'd strongly advise not allowing crits. If we allow crits, I'd strongly advise allowing precision damage as well. There is no precedence for having something allow crits but no precision based damage. And what will it hurt to allow precision based damage, multi-classing hurts you?

I'm fine with this. What says the playground?

[Pirate_King]

Really the only precedence to not allowing precision damage was we never have before. What was the original reason?

edit: I suppose it would be rather hard to sneak attack with a fireball... but it would not be hard to crit. I think the distinction makes sense in this case.

[Mephibosheth]

Really the only precedence to not allowing precision damage was we never have before. What was the original reason?

I don't think there really was one, other than the fact that the bending blasts as depicted in the show are usually large and can seem rather imprecise. I can't really remember a definite a reason.

[Ceiling009]

I don't really remember why either... but I do remember it being a issue, especially when I ran a game using the not yet finalized system. But, I'd allow the blasts to crit, especially if Warlock Eldritch Blasts can crit; so that means if you ever multiclassed rogue/bender, your blasts within 30ft could carry sneak attack damage. Then Point Blank Blast needs to be... modified.

[Pirate_King]

I think that the fact that it would terribly difficult to sneak attack with a fireblast needs to be addressed. There's clearly a difference between criting and precision damage. Precision can cause a crit, but that's not the only thing.

[dman11235]

I think that in the show they can control it well enough to get SA, SS, and skirmish damage on it.....they just don't have the training to do so. And we know that crits are possible: Azula hit Iroh in the shoulder: crit. I'm sure careful pruning will reveal more.

In this case, that feat can just be eliminated. Besides, I think a feat that makes multi-classing actually possible is tacky at best. It can aid in multi-classing, but it shouldn't be a necessity. Also, since you are sacrificing bending levels to gain SA, you are weakening your bending, thus balancing it out, possibly a little too much.

[Guyr Adamantine]

Everything that requires an attack roll can deal a critical on a 20, even if not specified. (Be it rays, manufactured weapons or claws.)

If blasts can't do criticals, but are described as ''usually large and rather imprecise'', than dodging them should require a reflex save, don't you think?

Unless blasts become saving-throw attacks, ''precision damage'' should be allowed.

[dman11235]

Yes. And also remember that in D&D, you can sneak attack a human with a large house if you could attack with a house, and were either flanking the human or caught the human FF. Not going to be too hard to catch the human FF with a house though, how could he possibly see that coming? You hit him with a house!

[Mephibosheth]

Seems like the consensus is to allow precision damage. I'll edit the website. I should really update the first couple posts of this thread one of these days, shouldn't I...

[Pirate_King]

I was play testing the new firekick in a L7 oneshot, and there was almost no reason to not be using it at a level where a DC15 is incredibly easy. perhaps we should limit firekick to once per round, or maybe only once per attack allowed by BAB, so Firestorm/Rapid shot couldn't be a bunch of kicks. Or possibly raise the DC for every consecutive kick.

on a slightly unrelated note, bending blasts provoke AoO's as other ranged attacks do, yes?

[Mephibosheth]

I was play testing the new firekick in a L7 oneshot, and there was almost no reason to not be using it at a level where a DC15 is incredibly easy. perhaps we should limit firekick to once per round, or maybe only once per attack allowed by BAB, so Firestorm/Rapid shot couldn't be a bunch of kicks. Or possibly raise the DC for every consecutive kick.

The more I think about it, the more I think this problem is unavoidable for a firebender, given that their abilities boil down to pretty much "deal fire damage" and "deal more fire damage." In my mind, the same is true of Blue Fire, Explosion, and Intensity (so...every firebender template seed except Breath of the Dragon). I don't really have a problem with this, other than the fact that the show depicts firebenders mixing kicks and punches. Perhaps reducing the number of attacks a firebender can make while using the seed by one (minimum one) or imposing an attack roll penalty, but other than that, I can't really think of any way to fix this.


on a slightly unrelated note, bending blasts provoke AoO's as other ranged attacks do, yes?

Yes.

[Ceiling009]

I think firekick, as newly updated is fine as it is. There isn't any better particular ways to add damage, short of going into a massive DC of firekick, blue fire, and the like... and even then, I don't think it does much more. I don't think it's anymore unbalancing really.

[dman11235]

How about a -2 penalty to attack when using fire kick? This follows many other templates for more damage/extra attacks/etc.

[Mephibosheth]

What if we say that a firebender can't use his Firestorm ability when using the Fire Kick seed? Then we can create a moderate- to high-prerequisite feat that allows it.

[Pirate_King]

I like Meph's, but the clause should encompass both firestorm and Rapid Shot.

although a feat that is really only good for one bender seems weird, so we could combine it with dman's suggestion, and state the following in the seed:

A Firebender may increase the number of blasts using firekick with the Rapid Shot feat and Firestorm ability, but each of these extra attacks incurs an accumulative -2 penalty which stack with the normal penalties of those abilities.

[dman11235]

Wait, the seed is firekick, and the feat is Break Stance. This is a firebender only thing.

[Mephibosheth]

Wait, the seed is firekick, and the feat is Break Stance. This is a firebender only thing.

I think Pirate_King is referencing my suggestion of a feat that would allow a firebender to use his Firestorm ability or the Rapid Shot feat with the Fire Kick seed. The Break Stance feat is open to anyone.

I don't really have a problem with feats tailored to specific bending classes. Despite the similar rules that govern them, the show presents the bending disciplines as different ability sets with distinct martial philosophies. A feat that allows a firebender to use Firestorm or Rapid Shot with is very much in appropriate given firebending's focus on fast, overwhelming, and powerful offense.

Also, spoilers for The Boiling Rock, in case anyone hasn't seen it yet:

Here's a suggestion for a firebending seed to replicate Azula's high-flying moves in The Boiling Rock:


Fire Jets
Base DC: 15
Concentrated bursts of fire extend from the firebenders hands and the bottom of his feet, allowing him to momentarily defy gravity.
• By making a jump as a full-round action, a firebender gains a bonus to his Jump check equal to his Firebending check. Also, this jump is not limited by the firebender's height. In addition, a firebender can use this seed to propel himself rapidly when suspended from a rope, cable, or similar object. The firebender may move forward or backward along the rope at a speed of 40 ft per round. This speed increases by 5 ft per round for every 10 by which the firebender's skill check exceeds the base DC.

Yes, it's mostly a blatant rip-off of Airbender's Leap, but the two abilities are functionally the same in the show anyways. One just relies on something like jet propulsion. I'm also worried about the "movement along a rope" application. I feel like it's abuseable. Am I just being paranoid? Any suggestions for making it more difficult to abuse?
Mephibosheth

[Guyr Adamantine]

Mmmm... I think I'll put mine, Meph. I just don't like yours.



Fire Jets
Base DC: 15
Concentrated bursts of fire extend from the firebenders hands and the bottom of his feet, allowing him to momentarily defy gravity.
• By making a jump as a full-round action, a firebender gains a bonus to his Jump check equal to his Firebending check. Also, this jump is not limited by the firebender's height. In addition, a firebender can use this seed to propel himself rapidly when in mid-air, such suspended from a rope, cable, or similar object. The firebender may move forward or backward along the rope at the distance of his modified jump check.

[Mephibosheth]

So, the firebender moves along the rope at a speed per round equal to the distance the firebender would be able to jump (assuming a long jump)? I can live with that, I guess. What says the community?

[Ceiling009]

I think I like Meph's more, cause it has more concrete numbers; and Azula does basically move along the cable more than she could jump.

See, it's already bad enough for Firebenders to get rapid shot, and firestorm, but additional -2 to a total of -6 with fire kick also? If it involves more than two feats to get what seem almost like a quintessential firebender, I'm against it. a -6 is huge penalty for a class that a +15 total in base attack. If anything, give the Firebender something like Greater Firestorm, to at least drop that -2, cause it's situational as it is to even get that extra attack (it must only be a fireblast). I don't think Firekick should incur any penalties to attack, since you have to add to at least 10 to any DC with that template attached. With auto 30's in later levels, at level 7 (38's are easy taking a 10), you still only do like...4d6 three times with firestorm and rapid shot. You're already getting a -4 from that. so then your attacks would be 1/1/1; what are you going hit at level 7 with 1's as your attac bonus (that would -1's if you wanted apply that additional -2)? Waterbenders, using Ice Shards and Blast get up to 7d6 half cold damage per round; at their highest base attack bonus.

[Guyr Adamantine]

So, the firebender moves along the rope at a speed per round equal to the distance the firebender would be able to jump (assuming a long jump)? I can live with that, I guess. What says the community?

One thing to remember is that the firebender should not be able to make a running start, so the distance would be halved.

Also, this move should get past the regular ''you go up in height equal to a quarter of the distance you travel during your jump.''

[Guyr Adamantine]

I think I like Meph's more, cause it has more concrete numbers; and Azula does basically move along the cable more than she could jump.

It is meant to emulate the sustained power of a Burning Rush: Firebender's Leap seed. The firebender does the same ''missile propulsion'' thing, but in the air, along a cable.

Also, I just dislike adding a ''Cable Sliding Speed'' to the game.:smallamused:

[Ceiling009]

that more I look at Burning Rush, I think the Fire Jets seeds is more a variation or a creative use of Burning Rush.

[Mephibosheth]

that more I look at Burning Rush, I think the Fire Jets seeds is more a variation or a creative use of Burning Rush.

Yeah, I just saw that. I don't know why I didn't notice it before. I think that this whole seed is unnecessary, and the cable sliding can be accounted for by DM/player cooperation.

[Guyr Adamantine]

Yeah, I just saw that. I don't know why I didn't notice it before. I think that this whole seed is unnecessary, and the cable sliding can be accounted for by DM/player cooperation.

My point exactly, just make it a footnote under Firebender's Leap.

[Ceiling009]

So how about that -2 on firekick? I'm quite against it.

[Mephibosheth]

To clarify the issue on Fire Kick, here's my proposal:

We modify the seed as follows (changes in bold):

Fire Kick (Template)
Base DC: +10
By using quick and powerful kicks to propel his Fire Blast, a firebender can greatly increase the range and power of his abilities.
• Applications: Applying this seed doubles the firebender's effective bending range for the purpose of that firebending seed. This range increase takes effect after determining the firebender’s bending range based on a high Firebending skill check. The seed also allows the firebender to use his Fire Blasts while his hands are full or immobilized. Note that this template cannot be applied to any form that cannot be performed with the feet (such as by applying another template involving a body part or when stuck in a waterbender’s Steady Stance). Finally, the damage dealt by the seed increases by +1d6 when Fire Kick is applied. This bonus to damage increases by +1d6 for every 15 by which a firebender’s skill check exceeds the base DC. When using this seed, a firebender cannot benefit from extra attacks granted by the Rapid Shot feat or the Firestorm class ability.

Then, I propose a feat with text resembling the following:

FLURRY OF KICKS [Bending]
Prerequisites: Firebending 12 ranks, ability to use the Fire Kick seed
Benefit: When applying the Fire Kick seed to your Fire Blasts, you can benefit from extra attacks granted by the Rapid Shot feat or the Firestorm class ability.

That's my proposal. What says the community?

Mephibosheth

[Ceiling009]

I'm alright with that. How about a feat for something like Greater Firestorm?

[dman11235]

I'm not too fond of feats that every one in that class will take or else they are silly people. That version of Firekick would be one of them.

I'm a fan of a -2 penalty. Sure that's a lot of penalties. It just means that you need to be smart in when and how you attack. If your enemy has a low AC, use all of them. If a high, use fewer, or even none. If it's so high you need a 19 or 20 anyways, use all of them, and make that nat 20 hurt like heck. Also, this can be taken at low levels, where as the others might not be present. So this is a boost from level 1, and the others are boosts at later levels. And I have seen some that take just as bad of penalties, and they work just fine. You just might not want to do it in a CharOp campaign.

[Ceiling009]

That feat is seriously for players who want multiple strikes, there are much better ways to get about getting more damage or even doing more efficiently especially with a Fire Bender. But it's such a waste of use since the penalties against it's use will just out right limit it from being used, with that -2 penalty. Soon as you get you ever second attack from iterative attacks, you're in the negatives to hit. What's the point of ever actually doing a full firekick, rapid shot, firestorm? Even at level 20, it's be 9/9/9/4/-1; and decent level 20 monsters or even other benders will just laugh at the fact that maybe 3 or less of those will ever be successful.

Actually with almost all the feats put into rapid shot to improved rapid shot, while that -2 stands from the Firekick, you'll be 11/11/11/6/1. Still not worth it. I'm perfectly happy with the current restriction of firestorm, unless you use a feat. Cause then it's actually quite a viable multi-strike character. That extra statistically higher second attack, is going to be far more useful over all.

[Pirate_King]

I'm with Dman; with no bonus feats, any firebender who takes firekick will almost certainly take the feat as well, mostly because at later levels, adding 2 or even 3d6 to multiple blasts with a high skill check is very shiny. hm. its a DC 45 to make a firekick do 3d6 extra damage. Well, maybe requiring a feat is more fair. What hurts more, losing a feat or losing attack bonus?

[Guyr Adamantine]

Well, maybe requiring a feat is more fair. What hurts more, losing a feat or losing attack bonus?

*Jumps off his chair, his arm up high toward the sky.*

Me Sir! Please!

At high level, the penalty will be easily ignored, but feats are an highly limited resource, even more so in a low-magic seting!

[Pirate_King]

*Jumps off his chair, his arm up high toward the sky.*

Me Sir! Please!

At high level, the penalty will be easily ignored, but feats are an highly limited resource, even more so in a low-magic seting!

Thank you, 50 points to Gryffindor

[jagadaishio]

I have two questions which really don't seem to have any answers on the googlepages page.

1. Can the avatar contain seeds from two different bending styles? For example, a flaming (firebender) tornado with hurricane force winds (airbender) spewing clouds of dust and shards of rock everywhere (earthbender). If so, what would they have to roll in order to make it happen, and what would the various DCs be?

2. Given that the number of seeds known is normally equal to (level/2)+1, what happens at epic levels? For example, a thirtieth level firebender, if the progression remains the same, should know 16 seeds, but there are only 15 that they don't get automatically. Also, how do the other various class features progress into higher levels, such as energy resistance and speeds?

[Pirate_King]

the avatar could probably create forms using different elemental seeds just like any other form, the combined dc +4, though I imagine templates would only work with the appropriate element.

as for epic levels, I think ErrantX had some ideas for epic seeds, though it could have been someone else.

[jagadaishio]

the avatar could probably create forms using different elemental seeds just like any other form, the combined dc +4, though I imagine templates would only work with the appropriate element.

But do you think that they would have to hit the DC of the form with each of their separate bending skills, or would they resolve each component separately? For example, would the full DC need to be hit on a firebending check, an airbending check, and an earthbending check, or would they make a firebending check for the fire portion, an earthbending check for the earth portion, and an airbending check for the air portion? There is no real system for mixed elemental forms, so I'm curious as to what everyone's opinion on it is.

[Pirate_King]

hm... I did not think of that. perhaps an average of the modifier in both skills involved?

[Ceiling009]

It would probably be best to just make the avatar's bending based on one skill, they choose a skill out of the 4, and make it work for all of them.

I'd rather lose feats, versus penalties that will never go away.

[Darkbane]

As I recall, the last time it came up, cross-element combinations were specifically disallowed. However, I never really understood that. I do like Ceiling's suggestion: how about revamping the skill system so that "Bending" is one skill, and taking levels in a bending class lets you use bending for that element only? That way, the Avatar--or a dual-classed bender, in a non-canon setting--can easily figure out DC's for multi-element forms.

[jagadaishio]

As I recall, the last time it came up, cross-element combinations were specifically disallowed. However, I never really understood that. I do like Ceiling's suggestion: how about revamping the skill system so that "Bending" is one skill, and taking levels in a bending class lets you use bending for that element only? That way, the Avatar--or a dual-classed bender, in a non-canon setting--can easily figure out DC's for multi-element forms.

In that situation it would not be so much that there is 'firebending' or 'waterbending,' but bending with fire seeds or water seeds. That actually makes some real sense. Remember when the guru dude said that the divisions between the elements are just illusions? As long as multiclassing between bending classes is disallowed, there will be no mixing of elements for anyone other than the Avatar.

That said, an avatar who is a master airbender and a novice waterbender would only have a limited number of seeds, but no less skill in waterbending than a master. What seeds they have, they would be able to use exceedingly well. That is the largest problem with this.

[Pirate_King]

eh, in the show, Aang is clearly better at air than water, and better at water than earth, and not really that great at fire. It fits the cannon to be better at some elements than others. Though, it does sort of hurt the playability if we have to determine some kind of average; do we sacrifice something we know is cannon to simplify the system?

[Ceiling009]

I say yes to losing a little canon for actual simplicity. It's not like Aang is actually better or worse than Katara at waterbending, he actually first out classed her, then later got to being at least on par with her. In avatar state, it's a moot point though. I think what should be done, for at least is that bending should be just be "Bending (Wis)", and those who do allow multi element, or dual element, give a bonus of like +3 to their primary element. So a Waterbender/Firebender, would have the same ranks in both elements, but gets an additional +3 to their primary... But, that's kinda silly. Actually the better thought, would be if you did allow that, there should be a feat for it? or abolish it all together. It's probably more about the lack of seeds, since aang doesn't know a of waterbending or earthbending forms, but he never really lacks any control or ability when using the ones he does learn.

[Thistle]

Ok, I've read through the thread and felt there wasn't really a resolution on the subject of lava bending. So I decided to bring it up.

First off I think we should resolve which element it is. While most lava bending has been preformed by avatars I feel it has a strong association with fire. In the episode of "The Avatar State" in is shown in the sequence demonstrating the powerful forms able to be executed by each element as the fire bending example.
During the Day of Black Sun an obstacle of a lava pit is seen and yet Toph is unable to help with the situation. No other way across is shown, so I assume the firebenders have a way to bend it safely.
It seems possible to use quench, as shown by Firelord Sozin in “The Avatar and the Firelord”.
The secret tunnels in Roku’s temple were carved using lava bending. While not strictly a firebender, it seems likely that Roku would use fire bending when building his sanctuary.
Avatar Kyoshi uses the technique when separating Kyoshi Island in “Avatar Day”. Is there anyone that can look at the movements she uses and give an opinion on what style she uses? I don’t know enough about martial arts to know what to look for.
Given most of these examples I would say earthbenders should be unable to bend lava.

As a side note: Do we even want to create a lava bending seed? Lava by DnD mechanics is powerful and deadly. Perhaps this should wait till we have an idea of seed mechanics, but is there anyway we can make lava bending balanced?

[ErrantX]

the avatar could probably create forms using different elemental seeds just like any other form, the combined dc +4, though I imagine templates would only work with the appropriate element.

as for epic levels, I think ErrantX had some ideas for epic seeds, though it could have been someone else.

It could have been me, I dunno, I've suggested some pretty wacky stuff.

To address my thoughts on the currently raised topics:

1) From what we've seen, Aang has yet to bend multiple elements together to achieve an effect. We have seen him use multiple elements rapidly, one right after the other, but that's the closest I think we've seen. I'm pretty firmly in Mephishobeth's camp of staying as close to canon as possible, so I'd say that the Avatar probably couldn't bend multiple elements together, except for when he's in the Avatar State. The Avatar State is the blending of the skills, talents and minds of all previous Avatars, it seems reasonable.

2) A single bending skill wouldn't be all that awful to implement, as it only directly affects the Avatar to have separate skills. I say Go Team! on that one.

3) Lavabending... oh this tricksy topic. This monster I personally feel should fall into the realm of the Firebender, but we've only seen Avatars doing anything with it so... it could be the exclusive province of the Avatar State then? If I had to choose which of the four, I'd choose Firebender.

-X

[Pirate_King]

We have not seen lavabending. no one has done it. Even when Roku creates lava in the solstice episode, he does not manipulate it like a waterbender does water, it flows in the path he creates for it. I think we can safely say we cannot finely manipulate lava.

[Ceiling009]

I think we have seen Lavabending. In the Avatar State, you see a firebender avatar, that wasn't Roku, calls up lava from volcanoes like a waterbender calls up water to form waves. I'd firmly place lavabending within the sphere of firebending.

Also, even though it seems that Aang have never used a mixed of bending, hard to say he hasn't. From a game stand point we'll delineate which form goes where, but to the avatar, mixing ideas or philosophies are perfectly plausible. Look at Iroh; I'd really like to simplify the bending (element) to just Bending, and make it work across the board. That would mean a modification to redirect lightning? And it would make those Cross training feats a lot more, flavorful.

[Mephibosheth]

First, there has been some discussion of epic progressions for bending base classes, but nothing concrete has come of it. I don't have any experience with epic level games, so I can't speak to this issue with any authority.

Second, at this point (and I'm always open to counter-arguments), I'm opposed to implementing a single Bending skill, even for the purpose of facilitating multi-element bending on the part of an Avatar. I say this for a couple of reasons.

First, we've never seen a character on the show using multiple elements in the same form. Even when the Avatar's using the Avatar State, they always bend one element at a time. It's true that they often bend different elements very rapidly, but I can't think of an instance where an Avatar used multiple elements in a single form.

Second, even though Guru Patik establishes the ultimate unity of the nations and the elements, it remains the fact that the different bending disciplines are starkly divided by philosophy and methodology. Take for example the philosophical divide between earthbending (focused on strong roots and direct action) and airbending (focused on mobility, flexibility, and multiple options for attack and defense) fleshed out in Bitter Work. Roku hints at a similar divide between firebending and waterbending in The Avatar and the Fire Lord. I think that separate skills for different bending disciplines accurately reflects these divisions.

Third, I think that Aang is markedly inferior waterbender to Katara and a markedly inferior earthbender to Toph. It's mentioned (or implied) multiple times in the series that, while incredibly powerful and skilled, he isn't quite at the same level as his teachers. Perhaps the most concrete example of this is the techniques that he can't perform (or at least, that we've never seen him perform). He can't metalbend or bloodbend, both of which are represented as the ultimate ability for their respective disciplines. Again, this hints at separate skills for separate bending disciplines, imho.

Finally, I still think we need to wait on the lavabending issue, if we include it at all. I'm convinced that, if it's possible at all for non-Avatars, this is firmly in the firebender ability set. The only time we've ever seen lavabending performed, it has been by firebender Avatars. That said, I would definitely want to see more lavabending performed before writing up a final seed. We just don't know enough about what's possible.

Mephibosheth

[Darkbane]

The only epic seed I believe exists so far is EighthSeraph's Dragonfire, in the Non-Canon thread.

The problem I see with the current four-skill method is that the Avatar, when multiclassing, has to buy all of his old bending skills as cross-class skills. Also, since he/she doesn't benefit from the x4 skill points at first level, the Avatar ends up very behind in any discipline other than the first.

Ex: Gnaa is a level 4 earthbender. At fifth level, she decides to multiclass to firebender. With an intelligence of 11, Gnaa gets 4 skill points at level five. She puts all four skill points into Firebending. She now has seven ranks in Earthbending and four in Firebending--already slightly behind other earthbenders of her level, and far behind other firebenders.

This system also runs into big skill-point shortages at higher levels. A fully realized avatar needs to spend 7 skill points per level to keep all his/her Bending skills at max ranks (one class skill, three cross-class skills). So in order to keep at a similar power level to non-Avatar benders, the Avatar needs to have at least a 16 Int.

To represent the difficulty Aang has with other elements, how about something like this: "The first element a bender learns to bend is his or her primary element. If the bender learns to bend any elements besides the primary element (through being the Avatar or by DM fiat), he or she takes a -2 penalty to bending checks concerning other elements. This penalty increases to -4 when the bender attempts to bend the element diametrically opposed to his or her primary element (Water and Fire are opposed, as are Air and Earth).

Not foolproof--we'd need to work out how to deal with skill focus, synergy, and the like to make multi-element PC benders semi-viable--but I think it helps deal with some problems. Comments?

[Ceiling009]

It's a lot easier to stick to one skill for bending, soon as you leave the actual canon universe, and it would be easier to mention that one's primary element should either get a bonus or a non-penalty. I do like what's mentioned in Darkbane's method. It relegates the bending skill into something more simplistic and doable with the icon avatar and possible non-canon games, while still keeping the stiffer "we haven't really seen a dual bender" reasoning.

[ninjatoman]

Hi I'd like to help and I have to say one thing:

I think that make more sense if we consider Lavabending as a form combining firebending and earthbending for two reasons:

First, because lava is rock in liquid state.

Second, I have seen only Avatars using this form, I disagree that even a powerful Firebender or Earthbender could Lavabend.

To Lavabend you probaly need the two: Fire and Earthbending

[Mephibosheth]

The only epic seed I believe exists so far is EighthSeraph's Dragonfire, in the Non-Canon thread.

The problem I see with the current four-skill method is that the Avatar, when multiclassing, has to buy all of his old bending skills as cross-class skills. Also, since he/she doesn't benefit from the x4 skill points at first level, the Avatar ends up very behind in any discipline other than the first.

Ex: Gnaa is a level 4 earthbender. At fifth level, she decides to multiclass to firebender. With an intelligence of 11, Gnaa gets 4 skill points at level five. She puts all four skill points into Firebending. She now has seven ranks in Earthbending and four in Firebending--already slightly behind other earthbenders of her level, and far behind other firebenders.

This system also runs into big skill-point shortages at higher levels. A fully realized avatar needs to spend 7 skill points per level to keep all his/her Bending skills at max ranks (one class skill, three cross-class skills). So in order to keep at a similar power level to non-Avatar benders, the Avatar needs to have at least a 16 Int.

To represent the difficulty Aang has with other elements, how about something like this: "The first element a bender learns to bend is his or her primary element. If the bender learns to bend any elements besides the primary element (through being the Avatar or by DM fiat), he or she takes a -2 penalty to bending checks concerning other elements. This penalty increases to -4 when the bender attempts to bend the element diametrically opposed to his or her primary element (Water and Fire are opposed, as are Air and Earth).

Not foolproof--we'd need to work out how to deal with skill focus, synergy, and the like to make multi-element PC benders semi-viable--but I think it helps deal with some problems. Comments?

The Avatar template (http://avatar.d20.googlepages.com/avatartemplate) already addresses this issue, specifically under the "skills" heading. Characters with this template gain one extra skill point per bending discipline known per level, which can only be used to add ranks in Bending skills. Admittedly, the language of this ability could probably use some clarification, but this problem is already addressed.

[Pirate_King]

also, remember that multiclassing still has gnaa as a level 1 firebender. she's only going to have one firebending seed, probably at a DC 10, and hopefully she's got a high wis and knowledge (bending), so that one seed won't be tough. Why should her ability to earthbend make her a better firebender? they're different styles. a multiclass character is naturally going to be worse at one class' specialty than a non-multiclass, the trade off being she gets both kinds of abilities. The problem you bring up is like complaining that your gish can't cast as much as a full wizard.

[jagadaishio]

On the topic of firebending, we have seen Roku bend for the purpose of increasing or decreasing the amount of heat a given source of lava has. The manipulation of heat falls well into the camp of firebenders. That said, for controlling the lava itself, it would probably be earth bending. Firebenders don't control and true matter, just the energy that is heat.

If one were to control the actual lava itself, it would probably be earthbending, but with the character moving in a way that resembles waterbending. That said, until we have some canon to go off of (i.e. someone moving lava around in a way other than just influencing its flow by breaking or creating barriers in its path) we don't know whether it is possible, nor whether it falls under the domain of fire or earth.

Now, for topics of uncertainty such as this, or the issue of whether sandbenders are earthbenders or not, there is a simple out. We could try emailing the fine people writing and producing the show and see if they could answer any of our questions on the matter. Has anyone ever tried that before?

[Pirate_King]

hm. it could be a spoiler

my theory:
I bet the sandbenders are actually airbenders in hiding. do we ever see them actually earthbend?

[jagadaishio]

hm. it could be a spoiler

my theory:
I bet the sandbenders are actually airbenders in hiding. do we ever see them actually earthbend?

I actually thought of that too. But most places that I've checked say that sandbenders actually propel their skiffs by bumping them with sand particles, not wind. The visual of wind cyclones would just be an illusion created by moving sand.

[Darkbane]

The Avatar template (http://avatar.d20.googlepages.com/avatartemplate) already addresses this issue, specifically under the "skills" heading. Characters with this template gain one extra skill point per bending discipline known per level, which can only be used to add ranks in Bending skills. Admittedly, the language of this ability could probably use some clarification, but this problem is already addressed.

Sorry, didn't catch that part. That definitely helps fix the problem.

[Mephibosheth]

hm. it could be a spoiler

my theory:
I bet the sandbenders are actually airbenders in hiding. do we ever see them actually earthbend?

Yes, we do. They use Steady Stance (http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/210/617.jpg) in The Library.

[Pirate_King]

Yes, we do. They use Steady Stance (http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/210/617.jpg) in The Library.

blast. so much for that theory. still, there could be some hiding out with them, it'd probably be the easiest place

[dman11235]

I have a question on the Water Whip, does this form also let you threaten with it? And what about attacks of opportunity? Or are these the same as a normal whip as well?

EDIT: Also, you should consider eliminating the restriction on Healing Waters. Unlimited healing is not all that powerful. At least for non-cannon. It's a pretty worthless seed outside of this setting.

[Guyr Adamantine]

I have a question on the Water Whip, does this form also let you threaten with it? And what about attacks of opportunity? Or are these the same as a normal whip as well?

EDIT: Also, you should consider eliminating the restriction on Healing Waters. Unlimited healing is not all that powerful. At least for non-cannon. It's a pretty worthless seed outside of this setting.

Q1: The description says it's the same as a regular whip.

Q2: I agree, but in a canon game, I'd probably keep the limit.

Explanations: All classes available in a canon games share a trait; durability. They don't lose any resources over time, except for one variable, hp. Infinite healing is far more damageable in a canon game than elsewere.

We could remove it, but it would be advised to mention how waterbenders and their allies could stay up all day and endure far more encounters, unless impaired by status effects and such. (Even if so, the Healer PrC could get over them.)

Outside canon, out-of-combat healing being that easily achieved and boosted, waterbenders wouldn't be that annoying.

EDIT: jadagaisho brings a good point. Did anyone contacted Nickelodeon to show them how awesome this project (and contributors:smallcool:) is?

[dman11235]

Then you might want to change it in some fashion, as right now Ice Shards is it but better (does a little more damage). Allowing it to threaten is an option, or something else. Actually, I think the threaten thing would be nice because it gives more accessibility to the possible fighting style: AoO battle. And eliminate the whole you provoke thing for it. The reason I see AoO battle: great reach, trip, and disarm. Those are the staples of AoO combat.

I will add this no-limit healing thing to the non-cannon thread. Here's some ways to get infinite healing: Touch of Healing, Dragon Shaman with that one aura (these last two were not truly infinite, because it's only up to 1/2 HP, but it means a LOT less resources spent), Dread Necromancer+Tomb-Tainted Soul, Shadowsun Ninja+TTS (only works if at least one party member does not have TTS), Persist Spell+Mass Lesser Vigor (or any mass vigor spell). I'm sure there's more, but those are the more common ones.

[Guyr Adamantine]

I'm with you on Water Whip. Its a really poor seed right now.

[Guyr Adamantine]

Current Topics of Discussion/Unresolved Topics

# Bending and Two-Weapon Fighting, Flurry of Blows, Rapid Shot, and other ways of increasing number of attacks.

In my own superior wisdom and intellect (and I mean it!), I have pondered upon the quite controversial question of bending blasts and multiple attacks.

A silly interrogation, really.

Much people were thinking that throwing a bunch of d6 at once was game breaking. Wrong, mind slaves! Each and every of these dices is only worth 3.5 damage each. Without any possible enhancements (beyond the rare singular seed), it s*cks, big time, at all levels.

So why forbid the poor benders from having fun? It's no different from rogues getting wonders from TWF.

But about Flurry of Blows, unless the Blasts becomes 1) Monk weapons and 2) Melee weapons, it won't work.

Now heed my words and agree! :smallwink:

[dman11235]

I agree, though with TWF, you will need more than one type of bending attack, or a bending attack and a different weapon. So something like water whip and blast, or blast and auto reloading hand cross bow (do you need both hands free or just one?), or something else. NOT blast/blast.

[Guyr Adamantine]

How so? You can go TWF with your fists, so how come blasts be right out of the game?

[dman11235]

You can't TWF with just your unarmed strike. You only have one of them.

[Guyr Adamantine]

Really?! Could you point it out for me? The man in me wants to believe, but my inner geek is quite pig-headed and needs to have it rubbed in its face.:smallconfused:

[dman11235]

The rules never indicate that you have more than one unarmed strike, therefore why assume you do? Also, if you had two, how would you go about deciding which limb gets what bonus at what time if you have something like a Necklace of Natural Attacks or Magic Fang cast on you or something?

[Guyr Adamantine]

Unarmed attacks are treated as both natural and manufactured weapons. With Magic Fang, if you choose it affects ''Unarmed Strike'', then it applies to all of them, no matter if its a feet or your left eyebrow. When you attack with an unarmed strike, you get all your iterative attacks. TWF being only a way to strike with an off-hand weapon, how hard is it to visualise attacking with the said hand, balled into a fist?

I know it might look a bit farfetched, but consider this: Attack rolls being possibilities to hit in combat rather than a number of time you swing your blade, applying TWF to unarmed strikes could simply mean swinging more limbs at your adversary, sacrificing precision in the process.

Now I'm off to bed, so see you tomorrow.

[dman11235]

So, you're getting the benefit of more than one spell with the casting of one spell? Also, with Thri-Kreen, can they now make infinite attacks (MWF) since they can just attack with any part of their body for different effects? Oh and all of those attacks were at +5 transmuting, wounding, collision, whatever else you want since your +1/+9 worth of enhancements NoNA only costs 200,600 gp, and one casting of GMW. That's the problem.

Actually, yes, attack rolls are the possibility of a possible hit. You flail about wildly and from BAB 1-5 only one has a chance to hit. BAB 16+ four have a chance to hit. If fighting with two weapons, each one has a chance to hit. Each one. It's not some arbitrary "I get more attack rolls", it's that you flail the same amount, and both of them have a chance to hit.

[Ceiling009]

Actually, flurry, unarmed strikes, and two weapon fighting stack. The Wizard's Sage and the CustServ make it clear that a monk with all of them (most don't have twf) can do it all within a full round action; but the penalties stack, and flurry must only be done with either monk weapons or unarmed strikes.



A monk can fight with two weapons just like any other character, but she must accept the normal penalties on her
attack rolls to do so. She can use an unarmed strike as an offhand weapon. She can even combine two-weapon fighting with a flurry of blows to gain an extra attack with her off hand (but remember that she can use only unarmed strikes or special monk weapons as part of the flurry). The penalties for two-weapon fighting stack with the penalties for flurry of blows.

[Guyr Adamantine]

So, you're getting the benefit of more than one spell with the casting of one spell?
Yes, since its called unarmed strike, not fist or kick. Since unarmed strike is a natural/manufactured effect, it counts once for boosts, and allow iterative blows.

Also, with Thri-Kreen, can they now make infinite attacks (MWF) since they can just attack with any part of their body for different effects?
Not infinite, but more, since they got more limbs.

Oh and all of those attacks were at +5 transmuting, wounding, collision, whatever else you want since your +1/+9 worth of enhancements NoNA only costs 200,600 gp, and one casting of GMW. That's the problem.
But that's how it works. Also, 200 grands? That'a significant chunk of your wealth at all but nigh-epic levels.

Actually, yes, attack rolls are the possibility of a possible hit. You flail about wildly and from BAB 1-5 only one has a chance to hit. BAB 16+ four have a chance to hit. If fighting with two weapons, each one has a chance to hit. Each one. It's not some arbitrary "I get more attack rolls", it's that you flail the same amount, and both of them have a chance to hit.
Okay, lets put it another way! You strike, spin and kick at your ennemy, adding awkward, swift punches (Extra TWF attack, without feat) to your regular drills.

[dman11235]

@ceiling: Yes, I'm aware that you can. The question is not whether or not you can use them at the same time, it's whether or not you can use unarmed strikes for all of the attacks. Which since you only have one unarmed strike (show me where it says you have more than one) you can't do.

@Guyr: What? I was saying that since you only have one US, you get the benefits once, and one of the problems with the whole two US things is that you either have a punch with +5 from GMW one round and then that same fist doesn't have it on the next attack, or the same spell covers more than one "weapon".

You can make attacks with any part of your body, so why is there a limit? I guess it's not infinite but arbitrarily high.

It's also an effective +10 weapon, which costs the same as a +10 weapon. If it applies to both USs, you just got two +10 weapons for the price of one. How is that fair?

Congratulations! You just described FoB+Snap Kick! Or the normal iteratives if most of those were just the flail attacks.

[Guyr Adamantine]

Ok, after expanding my Internet research, I realised I opened some weird can of worms. (I didn't knew the debate was that heated, so I'll stop here.)

Please excuse me. I'd understand the same to apply to Bending Blasts, but my point stays. It isn't overpowering, even less than unarmed strikes would be.

[Eighth_Seraph]

I am personally amazed at our ability to get off topic. Dman, Guyr. Seriously. If you want to discuss what an unarmed strike actually is, then take it to PMs or start a barely-restrained flame-fest on the gaming forums. I'll be back later tonight to help with a few details as long as Meph is out getting married or something.

EDIT: ninja'd. Thanks, Guyr.

[Ceiling009]

What I think about the definition of unarmed strikes and "hands"

By all points, everyone only has at most two attacks before iterative attacks, and special abilities like rapid shot and flurry. Two. You have a main hand, and an off hand. An unarmed strike is main or off hand, even races with more than 2 arms. It's then one attack per arm, or "extra" hands, so a thri-keen would have 4 attacks (one main, three off) before iterative attacks; and less if those are natural attacks, and not considered manufactured and/or natural weapons, cause then it's only limited to the number of actual natural attacks; like either bite and two claws, or two class, or whatever.

I don't see any reason why a bender wouldn't be able to flurry(maybe not flurry, though a bender would be losing blast dice and seeds for multi-classing), or off hand a blast, just take the penalties then, cause they're already getting an attacks per iterative, unlike the warlock, with their blast. 3.5 damage is only a small pittance at later levels, and in fact, if you're crafty, the current rules don't even deny a bender combining multiple blasts into one... which interestingly enough is even worse with iterative attacks alone.

[jagadaishio]

I'll put in my two coppers on the topic of the unarmed strikes before moving on to the other topics at hand: The way I see it, a character with unarmed strikes can use TWF with them (i.e. punch/punch) in the same way that a character with gauntlets can use TWF with them (i.e. punch/punch). Beyond it making logical sense for any martial art from boxing to eskrima, the fact that the rules imply that an unarmed strike can be used both off hand (in the TWF special attack description) or primary hand (every where else an unarmed strike is described). If anyone disagrees with me on this, I think that the polite method of doing so would be to spoiler it or PM me for continued discussion.

To the issue at hand. Given that it is cannon for a firebender to attack just as quickly with their fire blasts as with their unarmed strikes, from both hands, or when Toph pulls up two rocks at the same time and chucks them both at two different enemies, it seems like they can use TWF with their bending attacks.

Flurry of Blows would work if there was a feat to make a blast into a monk weapon. That said, it should work with a firebender's blasts regardless. After all, it says in the blast description that the fire damage can be channeled through their unarmed strikes.

Rapid shot makes sense as well. The problem with iterative attacks is how many attacks something can make accurately, with skill, not how many they can churn out per second. I could see a low level earth bender throwing a dozen rocks in a round, but it's unlikely any of them would be even close to accurate. The same is true of an archer or (even closer) someone with a sling. If rapid shot can be used with a sling (it can) it makes sense for it to be able to be used with blasts.

As for other methods of adding more attacks, I suppose it depends on a case by case basis. If you could somehow make them a Speed weapon that would probably work. I always thought that the rules of the blast basically just created a ranged weapon (in the case of the firebender a ranged weapon or extra damage on unarmed strikes), so in any situation where a ranged weapon (or unarmed strikes, again in the case of firebenders) could be given more attacks, blasts should be given the same ability.

[Eighth_Seraph]

I like your reasoning behind all of this, Jagad.
Rapid shot makes sense as well. The problem with iterative attacks is how many attacks something can make accurately, with skill, not how many they can churn out per second. I could see a low level earth bender throwing a dozen rocks in a round, but it's unlikely any of them would be even close to accurate. Situations like that is exactly why I began developing the seed/form system. A low-level bender could do that, but it would be a form whose details would have to be worked out with the DM, rather than a fluffed-up blast.



It has become increasingly clear from the minor quibbles that we're obsessing over that the bending system is pretty effectively representing what we see in the Avatar show. Because of this, I think that now would be a good time to start the groundwork for the 4e conversion of the system, since enough has been released about the what types of actions will be available to us and how powers operate to lay down a rough skeleton that will be easily built upon and revised when the PHB, and maybe an SRD become available .

The first thing that comes to mind is a small revamp of how seeds are used in relation to forms. Rather than have seeds that can be used as-is, the 4e system as I'm currently envisioning it would have the basic class progression we're using now, but each bender would make custom at-will powers for herself using different aspects of the seeds available to her. Of course, there would be a supply of pre-designed at-will forms for benders to use. In story terms, these would be the basic techniques that any worthwhile bending master teaches his students; much like Tae Kwon Do has the six basic kicks and four basic blocks that every practitioner must know before even being given a uniform.

Encounter and per-day forms are trickier. I'm thinking about whether we should even make per-day forms (It pretty much defeats the purpose of bending as we've characterized it in 3e), so we'll discuss that as it comes up, assuming anyone else is still enthusiastic enough to buckle down and get creative again. I'm thinking that per-encounter forms could be decided by the Bending DC of the form. For example; if the base DC of a form is more than half of the bender's modifier (using only ranks and mental attribute), then it is limited by the bender's per-encounter number. It should be pretty easy to avoid abuse because of 4e's more standardized skill system and our setting's lack of magical items.

Of course we have a serious problem in that 4e has not released any sort of martial artist class, so we'll be making a monk-flavored caster class without any monk to mirror. Now, if anyone's up for starting this branch of project, let me know this thread or through PM. If there's enough support then we can begin the conversion.

[jagadaishio]

I'm going to hold off on providing my input on the 4e conversion until I get my books in two weeks, read them cover to cover, read the PHB another two or three times, make two characters for each class, and run two test battles of the D&D 4e system. You know, wait until I really understand it.

[dman11235]

Yes, wait until after 4e comes out and then some before starting on that. Also, wait until we get 3.5 perfect first.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Alright, fair enough. I'm a bit worried that not enough people will have access to 4e materials. Any word on the creation of an SRD?

Also, wait until we get 3.5 perfect first. Nonononononono. Bad idea. The problem with trying to get a project 'perfect' is that our system of "leadership" for guiding this project is highly democratic and relies upon the opinions of at least a dozen people. We'll never agree on when the project is perfect.

However, the I guess we can get it as close as possible, and that means resolving this unarmed strike issue. For the purposes of this project, any bonus given to unarmed strikes applies to all attacks made with physical extensions of the character's body. If for some reason a character were to be given the effects of Magic Fang in this non-magical world, then all unarmed attacks will be given the appropriate bonus. Further, number of unarmed strikes has no bearing on iterative attacks. It is what it is. Here is my reasoning.
I am a martial artist myself, and I know that my left hand and right hand are very different types of weapons in my arsenal. They are, however, both parts of the same whole. I interpret unarmed strikes as a bit of an ambiguity in the rules. What this means to me is that yes, a character may have several unarmed strikes, but only as many as he is competent with. To a non-martial artist without Improved Unarmed Strike, this means effectively that he has no unarmed strikes, but we'll give him one in case of emergency. Martial artists in general (including benders) have four unarmed strikes (two hands, two feet). Some martial arts may have as many as eight or nine (elbows, knees, head), but these are to be specifically pointed out by the fighting style of the class or by the player to the DM ahead of time. No matter how many unarmed strikes one has, however, there is no impact on iterative attacks. The wizards FAQ laid down a hard-and-fast rule that you CAN apply two-weapon fighting to unarmed strikes, as if they are two weapons. For our purposes, a martial artist could use two-weapon fighting with his hands and his feet, but still only get bonus attacks as if he were using two weapons. So no qualifications for multiattack, etc.

Broken? Idiotic? Maybe, maybe not. But it's there. You don't have to like it, but let's stop fighting over it. If you have an amazing revelation and have a new argument to present; PM me, or Meph if I'm inactive again at that point. Playtest it and prove that it's broken, and we'll talk. However, Meph was very clear in this write-up when he mentioned that there would be no Flurrying or two-weapon fighting with blasts, though he made the concession for Rapid Shot.

Now, back to other issues at hand. Apparently Water Whip is a useless seed. I'd like to see an argument presented before we begin trying to "fix" this issue. I knew when I made the seed that it was statistically inferior to, well, everything else. Nevertheless, the point of the seed was not to do damage. It is a seed that was made for the express purpose of being incorporated into forms. Sure, we gave it some bonuses to trip and disarm so that the uncreative can get some use out of it; but the whip is a general range-extension and contact-making aspect of a form. The Capture ability that we attached to the seed is basically a pre-made Water Whip/Manipulate form. I would not consider Water Whip to be useless, but it does require a certain amount of creativity to use effectively. Remember that the whole point of this project is the individual creation of new abilities from non-statistical and outright fluff parts of the seeds we've provided. Just because the water whip only deals a single die of damage does not make it useless. That's my assertion. What's the counterpoint?

[Guyr Adamantine]

I see the original philosophy behind Water Whip, but I don't agree. I think that even if the seed is meant to encourage creativity, it shouldn't suck.

It's like claiming a class isn't broken because the DM can fix it, its just a bad argument.

I suggest giving it a boost, as no given options should suck in a good system.

[Ceiling009]

In the vein, Ice Shards is still better, cause then you can add all the seeds and the like to make it better, from capture, freeze, tidal wave, and more. In fact, Ice Shards lets' you make weapons of ice, and if you have proficiency (lets say you had a fighter level) you could make Ice Great swords and be completely proficient (not about the current ice shards, and if it doesn't, it should). The only downside would be that as a ranged attack, you can't threaten squares.
And in fact, by the time Katara gets to being rather useful on the battlefield, she's no longer using Water whip as outlined, but rather a really interesting take on tentacle. Looking at the both of them, it would seem that Tentacle and water whip could be the same seed, with just different levels of proficiency; the whip being the lowest, and tentacles being something much higher.

[dman11235]

By "perfect" I meant as good as humanly possible.

So, with regards to TWF, where is this FAQ ruling? In the last FAQ I didn't see anything pertaining to that. I saw that you can TWF with the unarmed strike as the off-hand, and that you can TWF and flurry at the same time. I did not see that you can TWF using an unarmed strike as both weapons. In fact, the FAQ ruling saying that you can TWF using an US as the off-hand had nothing to do with TWF, it was in regards to the monk description, clarifying that a monk may make an unarmed strike with any part of his/her body without additional penalty.

These are the problems I see with allowing TWF using only your unarmed strikes. The first paragraph will deal with the explanation of TWF and only one unarmed strike, the second with you have multiple unarmed strikes.

If you only have one unarmed strike (which is supported by the rules in that nowhere does it ever indicate that each character has more than one unarmed strike, which is something they would probably include, much like how every double weapon states that it is more than one weapon, yet the unarmed strike description is lacking this clause), you run afoul of a few problems, balance and flavor wise. One, how do you adjudicate the casting of Greater Magic Fang on the character if they TWF? Does the single casting of the spell (or other buffs, like a Necklace of Natural Attacks and other spells) effectively boost two weapons, the off- and on-hands? Two, how do you justify using TWF with only one weapon? This goes for both flavor and balance wise, your body is a weapon as a whole, how is it also two?

If you have multiple unarmed strike, you run into even more issues. First off, how do you determine which limb gets what bonus at what time, if you have a buff spell cast on you, like GMW? Does it just change each time you strike with that limb as an on- or off-hand? Second, how do you determine how many unarmed strike a character has? This may seem like a simple answer, your hands, but a monk can strike with any part of their body, so is it not separate parts of the body, and thus separate weapons, and thus an arbitrarily high number of attacks that can be made? This issue is exacerbated by creatures with more than two hands, thus capable of taking Multi-Weapon Fighting, primary culprit: the Diopsid (Dragon Compendium). A weaker Thri-Kreen, it has four arms, but normally can only wield two weapons (two of the arms are very weak), but gets massive bonuses to those two weapons, primarily in the form of dual-wielding greatswords (and getting 1.5xstr to damage, and 2x pw attack since it's 2-handed). So even with the limit of your hands, the Diopsid gets an overpowering boost with this. Thirdly, this argument is based heavily on the interpretation of "off-hand". Note how those are just words. The definition of an off-hand attack is NOT something wielded in your off-hand. They did away with that in the switch to 3.5. It is the weapon that takes bigger penalties while TWF or MWF, notably the 1/2 str to damage. Hence the need for an FAQ ruling that an unarmed strike is capable of being an off-hand attack, due to the poor wording of the monk's ability.

Finally, my argument. It will be overpowering to allow TWF with just unarmed strikes, due to a) the abuses I presented in the other two paragraphs, and b) the fact that it's not just the lowly monk that would get this boost, the unarmed swordsage and every other unarmed build would get this boost. And this is a really big boost. This doubles your damage output at the cost of three feats, and barely misses doubling it at the cost of one feat (the lower itteratives are not likely to hit). This doubling does not come at the additional cost of money like normal TWF does (they have to enchant more than one weapon, which is 400,000 gp for two +10 weapons, more than half of the wealth of a level 20 character), or is more than a doubling (MWF+arbitrarily high number of attacks). Also, there are ways to make your unarmed strikes deal MUCH more damage than normal attacks (record is 34d8 base, +wis, str, and dex, +more from weapon enchantments+miscellaneous, +wisx2 to attack+weapon enhancements+BAB+miscellaneous). I'd like to see your rogue pull that off. No where do the rules state that it is possible to TWF using only unarmed strikes, and I this means that it is not possible. This is something that rulebooks will say if it is possible, else they would be relying on inference using other rules, which is also not present. As for the realism argument, I know of no one who is capable of TWF using only their unarmed strikes. I know only of people who use FoB and Snap Kick, and the normal flailing attacks that have no chance of hitting, hence don't have an attack roll associated with them.

The problem isn't that it does no (re: little enough to not matter much) damage (though if I go this route I need to deal SOME damage). I'm fine with that. The problem is that it doesn't do damage AND the other way it is supposed to work doesn't work. You do not threaten an area while wielding it. Therefore: no battlefield control (which is what this seed SCREAMS). Also, you provoke attacks of opportunity while using it. Something else not very good.

[Pirate_King]

this thing just goes on forever, don't it? I just don't think the PH would bother state that the unarmed strike counts as a light weapon for purposes of TWF if you couldn't TWF with unarmed strike. it's right there in the SRD:

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways:

* If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)

Does this mean that you can only use unarmed strike in TWF if it's your off-hand, and the first attack is made with a weapon? if so, that is just plain ridiculous.

personally, I'd only allow someone to do that if they had improved unarmed strike, though it would be stupid to do it otherwise, as you'd provoke an AoO for both attacks.



Personally, I never understood why whips provoked AoO. I mean, if you're using the weapon to trip, isn't using a weapon to trip generally a viable way to avoid the AoO? I could be wrong.

although, it kind of makes sense. I mean, if you're using the range of the whip properly, no one can get an AoO on you, because they don't threaten you.

I still sort of support the whip seeds threatening, though. Indiana Jones has definitely taken attacks of opportunity with his whip.

A thing I've been thinking about, though, may sort of mess with the whole basis of the system, that is a system that has a handful of dead levels where the only way a bender is becoming a better bender is a single skill point. this has just sort of been nagging me.

[dman11235]

You're missing some logical connections there. Of course you can TWF with an unarmed strike. You just need something else as well. You can use the US as either the off- or on-hand, but not as both.

It's because they require large motions to use. If you've ever watched someone actually use a whip (not like lion tamers and animal riders and such, like, actual weapon uses) it requires lavish motions. Though one possible reason to not include the AoO: you don't actually hold it. That time in the North Pole, she used Ice Shards and Manipulate to form a whip of water. This is just the controlling of the whip with bending, more like the single water whip. This provides a more clear distinction between the two seeds, and a couple different benefits: Ice Shards deals more damage (and has a few other goodies), Water Whip threatens an area, doesn't provoke, and uses wisdom instead of a physical stat.

And I agree on the dead levels, though I've been having trouble figuring out what should go at them, since adding abilities just to fill dead levels is a BAD idea.

[Pirate_King]

[QUOTE=dman11235;4370432]You're missing some logical connections there. Of course you can TWF with an unarmed strike. You just need something else as well. You can use the US as either the off- or on-hand, but not as both. this just doesn't make sense to me, especially if one has taken a feat to have their unarmed strikes considered weapons. I also still don't really get how this is terribly game-breaking. it's certainly less game-breaking than a number of combinations of spells. It's really only effective if you're a monk, and it's one more attack with stacking penalties. going further in the TWF chain would be a waste of feats for an unarmed monk.


Though one possible reason to not include the AoO: you don't actually hold it. Water Whip threatens an area, doesn't provoke, and uses wisdom instead of a physical stat.

italics mine. don't try to bring up another argument that was settled way back. sneaky.

Last time this came up, meph provided a pick that had katara holding it, and all bending seeds have heavy somatic qualities. that's why forms provoke AoO. I think it should still provoke (it doesnt provoke to create the thing, so it's not too big a deal, I think, and if you're using it right, you won't be in a threatened square anyway), but it should also threaten squares in its range.

I was thinking the bending skill could be based on a level check of some kind instead of a skill, though the DC's would have to be altered considerably, and skill focus wouldn't be applicable. Knowledge bending could still provide a bonus, and would still work as a prerequisite for feats. maybe something as simple as bender level + wis or something. changing the DC's could be a tough one, though. that way, even on dead levels, a bender is by necessity a better bender, instead of only a better bender if she continues to max her skill out. This is coming from the line of thought that spell casters always get more spells every level, and fighters always get a higher BAB every level, and every other class always gets better at whatever role that class fills every level, no matter how they decide to improve the character.

[dman11235]

I'm pointing out that it is far from RAW that you either have more than one unarmed strike or you can TWF with one weapon.

:smallredface: I know I'm sneaky. But you have to admit that it would differentiate it from Ice Shards more (see previous post on argument that it wasn't Water Whip she used there, it was Ice Shards+Manipulate to form a whip minus the ice), and the Single Water Whip from those early episodes is not well represented yet. I'm seriously staining my brain to figure out a way to do it and failing. Unless it's just a blast? That can trip? Also on the topic of provoking, we don't really have any place that shows an enemy threatening Katara when she uses any possible water whip form, so that can't really be settled except by guesses. My guess is that it either would provoke as a ranged attack or it would provoke and you can use it defensively (like a spell/power/etc).


...simple as binder level + cha or something.

Note the simple changes, and you have something that already exists. I'm in favor of this...maybe. Your skill based system isn't broken like truenamers. Since there's nothing auto-win there's not much you can abuse, and since you actually work well without heavy optimization (i.e., a competence ring +30) it's well balanced without it. The one biggest advantage of changing to a mere level based system is that in non-canon settings you won't be shoehorned into buying that ring and forsaking a possible VoPov. The other is that you can give boosts throughout the levels, at perceived dead levels, something like a +3 every couple levels, totaling a +15. That should do it. Note how by level 20 in this setting this will get you an average of +41, barring any way to boost wisdom. This is still not auto-succeed on the bigger ones. And introducing templates is still pretty dang harmful to the DC. Also, if you feel that is too much you can either lower the number of times they get it or raise some of the DCs. If it's too little, increase the number of times they get it. Also, don't go below +2 each time, so that the ability is actually worth something.

[Eighth_Seraph]

I'm perfectly alright with allowing Water Whip to threaten. One thing is, though, that it should not threaten adjacent squares. I seriously don't think that a whip can be used effectively at such close range. Of course, that would still not put it on par with the standard use of Tentacle if taken alone. I think that the main source of that is that we don't have a clause that allows for this (http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/218/172.jpg)technique (http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/218/173.jpg), or others like it (http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/218/180.jpg).

I get the feeling that the wording for that ability would be like walking through a valley full of spiky, animated rocks. What do you guys think?

[Guyr Adamantine]

Go check the latest FAQ. It is, just like the Sage, ok with it.

Skill-boosting magic items wouldn't break the system, as just everyone is so heavily dependant on them that the system takes it into account.

[Pirate_King]

I think that the main source of that is that we don't have a clause that allows for this (http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/218/172.jpg)technique (http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/218/173.jpg), or others like it (http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/218/180.jpg).

I get the feeling that the wording for that ability would be like walking through a valley full of spiky, animated rocks. What do you guys think?

that actually seems pretty simple; just add a clause to increase the DC to grant a whirlwind attack that does trips instead of damage. anyone threatened by the water whip is subject to the improved tripping abilities the water whip grants. this would follow with allowing the water whip to threaten. (I imagine firewhip would threaten, too,even if it isn't so much with the mass tripping:smallbiggrin:)

[Eighth_Seraph]

Skill-boosting magic items wouldn't break the system, as just everyone is so heavily dependant on them that the system takes it into account. It's not the idea of it being broken or not that even matters here. Remember, this is a setting. There has been no evidence of any sort of item that would grant bonuses to bending skills, and I figure that by this point, if there were such items, we would have at least heard of them.

Also, on the topic of the Ice Shards moment at the North Pole (which I think is referring to this (http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/118/666.jpg) scene (http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/118/668.jpg)), I would have to say that that is not an application of the Ice Shards seed. Rather, it's just Katara making a Water Whip using available water. Remember, a waterbender only needs to use Manipulate to get her water if there isn't a water source within 5 feet.

I like the idea of a whirlwind attack with Water Whip, but I think that should be left as "clever application" of a simpler concept. For that simpler concept, I think it may be best to make good use of the Whip's clearly laid-out stats for length. By this I mean that a waterbender can use the whip to lash out in a 15-foot horizontal swath if she has a 15-foot whip.That takes care of situations like this (http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/218/173.jpg), which we could interpret as Katara creating a 25-foot long whip and using its trip ability on the five adjacent enemies (there's a fifth opponent blocked out by Katara's head). Of course, there's clearly some sort of knockback included here, which we'll have to take care of.

[Pirate_King]

I like the idea of a whirlwind attack with Water Whip, but I think that should be left as "clever application" of a simpler concept. For that simpler concept, I think it may be best to make good use of the Whip's clearly laid-out stats for length. By this I mean that a waterbender can use the whip to lash out in a 15-foot horizontal swath if she has a 15-foot whip.That takes care of situations like this (http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/218/173.jpg), which we could interpret as Katara creating a 25-foot long whip and using its trip ability on the five adjacent enemies (there's a fifth opponent blocked out by Katara's head). Of course, there's clearly some sort of knockback included here, which we'll have to take care of.

maybe a bull rush of sorts? and the whirlwind trip (or bull rush or whatever) goes well with the whip if it threatens its whole range, since the feat grants an attack on everyone opponent within reach. aang does a similar thing the first time he goes into the avatar state in the first episode, though it wasn't with a whip, really...

[Ceiling009]

What Katara does with in the Earth King, could have been tentacle + pressure, and something more that allows a whirlwind attack; or actually, it'd be Tentacle + Pressure + Ice shards to allow the multiple targets. Water whip is barely used.

[Pirate_King]

What Katara does with in the Earth King, could have been tentacle + pressure, and something more that allows a whirlwind attack; or actually, it'd be Tentacle + Pressure + Ice shards to allow the multiple targets. Water whip is barely used.

generally, when we see the tentacle seed, it comes directly from the water source and is based in the ground. I think we can attribute anything that's consistently floating around her, like how she wears it like a shawl of awesome later on, to the whip seed.

[Eighth_Seraph]

or actually, it'd be Tentacle + Pressure + Ice shards to allow the multiple targets. Water whip is barely used. Emphasis mine. Why Ice Shards? I saw no shards of ice involved in this form at all. Remember that is not so much the statistics of a seed that matter towards making the form, but rather the general concept of it. What Katara did there was definitely an extension of her previous uses of Water Whip; though it may well have been a simple application of Pressure that allowed the knockback.

Let's do some number crunching, then. Base DC 10 + 20 (10-foot extension in order to hit 5 people) + 10 (Pressure) = DC 40 form. That's kinda tough, but the concept seems right. What this most clearly means is that the Water Whip seed does not limit forms to be held in the hand, but can be used within the bender's bending range, as normal for forms. This could have some interesting repercussions. I, for one, would like to propose lowering the DC increase for range extension on the whip from +10 to +5 per 5 feet. Thoughts?

[Ceiling009]

actually, my bad, it would have tentacle + pressure + wave, not ice shards. Instead using a wave, she instead uses a very large tentacle that's been significantly hardened, and now it can bull rush, then with the wave application, using the floating amount of water in the tentacle it now targets any thing in it's path and bull rushes that. It's more of a work around with the actual seeds than in pure concept. Unless of course Katara has like whirlwind attack or something... but why would she?

[dman11235]

Nowhere in the FAQ is this addressed. You are thinking of the monk entries for FoB and TWF, correct? Well, read them again. Carefully. Note how nowhere in those paragraphs does it even hint at even addressing this issue

Hmm, me thinks we have multiple ways of achieving the same thing. Also, adding in Ice Shards+Melt/Freeze to form the whip that you hold. Not Manipulate as I previously said, that's my bad. So how is Water Whip different than this combo? My suggestion was the whole threaten an area thing and use wis as the stat for controlling it (since you aren't holding it, at least, in my interpretation, see Single Water Whip). Other suggestions I've seen are just letting it threaten its area (something I'll go for, as long as there is a reason to take this and not just have it be a combo Ice Shards+Melt/Freeze, minus the Melt/Freeze for something even more powerful, which this is), and, well, nothing else really. One change to the current mechanics suggested is the reduction of the DC hike for increased reach.

[Pirate_King]

I'd concede to wis bonus for the attack on that, but not to the damage, based on previous arguments on the philosophy behind waterbending.

[dman11235]

I wasn't arguing for that. In fact, there is no evidence that any time while waterbending anyone received any bonus to damage other than just the normal damage dice. Only possible time was that time Katara used that whip of water at the North Pole that didn't do any damage (immune due to armor bonus? Something else?). At least, iirc. So yeah, Firebending Study for waterbenders has no canon roots iirc. Most of the bending study feats don't really.

[Darkkwalker]

Well. Might as well throw my 2 cents in.

How do you get Ice Shards+Freeze/Melt to equal Water Whip?

Ice shards, and water being thrown for that matter, spread out in uneven distribution. If you've ever played with a hose and waved it back and forth you know what I'm talking about. What Katara is doing is nothing that is thrown. What it is is a controlled, expanding, circular movement of water. Basically Water Whip as seen in the Waterbending Scroll but around her whole body.

and on the issue of unarmed strikes. My other 2 cents.
Also, a strike is one hit, with one object. My fists are two different objects. However they are both my fists and are very similar to each other. Not to mention they are a part of my own body. For purposes of fine motorskills proficiency is unequal, but for puposes of hitting I am just as proficient with one as the other. Sure being right handed my right punch is stronger than my left but is not really enough to make a difference.

Not entirely sure where I was going with this. But for the purposes of this project, I am with Eighth Seraph and PirateKing

[dman11235]

It is not a punch! It is not your fist. It is an unarmed strike, and it can happen with any part of your body. Also, off-hand does not mean it's made with a hand

Use the Ice Shards part about creating a weapon, and create a whip. Now use Melt/Freeze to make it not ice.

[Pirate_King]

Okay, this conversation in the spoilers? I think it needs to stop. I had a response to the last one, but nothing new to say to the actual topic, so my reply would have been an unproductive part of a side conversation. The [spoiler] tag shouldn't be a valid way to carry on a topic that is completely separate from the current one. As for TWF and unarmed strikes, we needn't write any rules about it, let each DM run it in the way he or she sees best, since we've just about got to the point where we're repeating the same arguments and it just boils down to mindless contradiction. It really only greatly affects firebenders, anyway, since only they can channel their blasts in unarmed strikes.

EDIT: I have a productive addition: something I pointed out a while back, can't remember what people thought of it, but I thought it made more sense if we only let the weapon creation seeds make daggers, since that's all we see in the show, and it's really the only thing thats feasible. A sword made of ice? It would start to chip and shatter the minute it came into contact with a real weapon. and a spiked chain made of fire? silly.

[Ceiling009]

No. I like that the weapon seeds can make any weapon they're familiar with; why restrict the possibilities and the freedom of the player? And yes, if you can make supernaturally cold anything, and not be affected by it; why not make ice great swords? or Spiked chain whips? In fact, how does a whip of fire work anyway? It's energy, it's not tangible in the same effect water, earth, or even air is; it's just pure energy. If Zuko can make daggers and whips, why can't he make a spiked chain? I'd rather allow benders to do that.

[Darkkwalker]

In the show, I'm pretty sure she learns waterwhip before we ever see ice shards. I haven't watched it in a while though. Also, waterwhip was learned with a base substance of liquid water to begin with. ice doesn't ever come into play.

The weapons thing, think feasability. you could make an ice spiked chain. but you'd have to make each link individually. as far as I recall bending isn't really all that good at intricate work.
What needs to be understood is the nature of the medium. Ice isn't good for fluidity or sturdyness.

back on Ice Shards. Basically what it is is throwing water and freezing it at the sametime in a specific shape. Again with the hose analogy. Also, IIRC liquid water is always in play. of course it needs to be frozen.

I dunno. I'm probably rambling at this point and defeating myself. I'm of the firm opinion that waterwhip should be it's own seed.

On fire whip spiked chains. The reason a spiked chain does the damage it does is because it is tangible and spiked. The spikes puncture, rip, and tear. Fire doesn't work like that. Not in real life, and not in the show.

[Ceiling009]

Actually it does; at least in the show. Zuko's fire whips tore a rock out of the carven in the fight during crossroads of destiny. In fact, Azula's blue streams of fire work more like blades able to slice through buildings, shown in the Chase. Now that I think about it, Water Whip should be a template added to blasts and ice shards; and let it allow to do more, at least threaten squares.

[dman11235]

I like that idea ceiling. As it stands waterbenders don't have many templates. Though one question, how will it react with forms other than Ice Shards?

[Eighth_Seraph]

Now that I think about it, Water Whip should be a template added to blasts and ice shards; and let it allow to do more, at least threaten squares. I still see absolutely no reason to mix Ice Shards into this situation at all. There are no shards of ice involved in any application of Water Whip we've yet seen. Also, the concept of a whip made of water is completely different from that of Water Blast. It is not pressurized water being launched at someone, but rather a volumed of water controlled in such a way as to inflict some minor bruises, wrap around objects, or push and pull others. The concept does not fit a template form at all.

The concept of incorporating Water Whip into the Tentacle seed does hold some value, though. I still hold that the two should be separate seeds, but I can definitely see the similarities between the two, and how the concepts and canon background of the seeds are similar.

On the topic of weapons made of ice; it seems to me that the canon we've seen does limit weapons made of ice to small slivers. I suppose that a waterbender could make a sword made from ice with a simple application of Manipulate's 'shape' ability; but the result of this would be difficult to determine. From what we've seen, any ice a waterbender makes is just plain ice, which would chip badly from any hard contact with metal armor, especially if the temperature is above freezing. I wouldn't include a weapon-making aspect in the Ice Shards seed, but you're welcome to make a simple Ice Shards/Manipulate form (pending DM approval) that would have a DC 19, usually doable by taking 10 at 1st level.

[Pirate_King]

A friend of mine just pointed out to me that you could combine ice shards with water whip; make ice shards within the whip for more damage, sort of like a slushee of death.

[dman11235]

Slushee of death. Heh.

Anyways, the reason there were no shards of ice involved was because she use Ice Shards+Melt/Freeze, or at least that's my story and I'm sticking to it. OR the seed should be that it makes the weapon out of water and then those instances of an ice weapon are a result of this new seed (replacing Water Whip) plus Melt/Freeze. Ice Shards could be revamped to include no weapon creation bits, or could be added to that in some fashion. I think this second one makes more sense, at least to me it does. It's easier to form water and not have it be ice, correct? And then with more work you make it ice. I mean, Ice Shards is already a pretty big seed.

As for small weapons being the only things created, there is a very good explanation: Weapon Finesse. If you can't use the bigger weapons, why create them? Small weapons are faster, and since benders tend to be fast rather than strong, it makes sense to use it. Just because you can make bigger weapons doesn't mean you have to, and just because you don't doesn't mean you can't.

That ice hardness was another problem, is there any way for them to increase the hardness of ice? See Frostburn for more details on using ice.

[Guyr Adamantine]

That ice hardness was another problem, is there any way for them to increase the hardness of ice? See Frostburn for more details on using ice.

Earthbending Study.

[dman11235]

Doh, didn't think to look there.

[Eighth_Seraph]

OR the seed should be that it makes the weapon out of water and then those instances of an ice weapon are a result of this new seed (replacing Water Whip) plus Melt/Freeze. Ice Shards could be revamped to include no weapon creation bits, or could be added to that in some fashion. I think this second one makes more sense, at least to me it does. It's easier to form water and not have it be ice, correct? And then with more work you make it ice. I mean, Ice Shards is already a pretty big seed.
The reason Water Whip is its own seed is because it is the only weapon we've ever seen made from water, and the fluidity of it fits the waterbender mentality. Dman, don't forget that the purpose of this system is not to make an infinite amount of possibilities, but rather to make as many possibilities as possible while staying within the boundaries of the Avatar world as we've seen it in the show. The Weapon application of Ice Shards does not involve making a dagger out of ice. All the waterbender is doing is taking a shard of ice and using it as an improvised without taking a penalty. We've had this discussion in the past, and this is what we decided goes along best with what we've seen. My original write-up of the seed allowed the creation of any weapon the bender was proficient with, but we decided against that.

The purpose of this project from the beginning was to represent the show as well as possible. Adding nothing, taking nothing away. Admittedly, this is a difficult thing for any homebrewer to do, but that's our goal nonetheless. If you want to "make the show better" by adding a new seed or a new section to a seed, take it to the non-canon thread. The Bending Study feats were unfortunately based largely upon extrapolation, because the canon that required their creation wasn't extensive enough to base worthwhile abilities on.

Anyways, the reason there were no shards of ice involved was because she use Ice Shards+Melt/Freeze, or at least that's my story and I'm sticking to it. I don't see any reason for that. Katara needed to use Melt/Freeze in order to get some water for the whip, yes, but the seed Ice Shards is definitely all about making and using shards of ice. If the (http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/118/668.jpg) execution (http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/118/669.jpg) of the form does not utilize shards of ice in any way, we can be reasonably certain that the Ice Shards seed was not applied.

[dman11235]

The melt/freeze thing was a method of justifying my stance, nothing more. I mean, it's another way of getting a whip made of water, is it not? So was my thought exercise not successful?

Though you could have fooled me with the weapon part of Ice Shards. I guess when it says


...a waterbender may craft any ordinarily wooden or metal melee weapon or ammunition she is familiar with...

it doesn't really mean any. And all I was saying is that just because they haven't done it, doesn't mean they can't. And judging by the physics, they probably can, they just don't want to. Heck, they'll probably take non-proficiency penalties if they form a greatsword out of ice and try to use it. We don't have any way of judging that yet, if ever.

I'm not trying to make the show better. I'm trying to make this system work better, and thus better emulate the show.

[Pirate_King]

clearly the website isn't up to date on all the edits we've made on the boards. if you sift through this thread, you'll find the decision.

[Ceiling009]

You do know that they should be able to make bigger than dagger sized ice shards right? Look at Pakku when he fought Katara. So I'm still going to stand by the current wording on the website.

[dman11235]

I do too. There is no reason why they shouldn't be able to. Not that most would want to, since larger weapons are not finesse-able, and exotic weapons are not known, and daggers are common. And as I said before, just because it doesn't happen, doesn't mean they can't, and thus doesn't mean it's not canon. There are small things we can add that are easy to extrapolate from the show that don't actually show up. I mean, they really aren't going to go through every possible form, are they?

[Darkkwalker]

I just thought of something. From the Seige of the North episodes. The water benders make a circle of water that travels along the ground with movements similar to how the Swamp waterbenders propel their boats. And the water seems to act like a blade.
What seeds would that be if any?

Edit: Well, I've just been through the database of screenshots. Can't seem to find it. But I swear it exists and I've seen it. it's sort of like an omega symbol of water moving along the ground. and it acts as a blade. That's all I can remember.

[Pirate_King]

the only thing close to that I can think of is in her fight with paku, where she flings ice disks at him.

EDIT: you could mean the blasts that paku uses to cut the tanks? that's probably just a high powered waterblast with pressure(slice).

[Darkkwalker]

Ah, I see then. oh creativity.

[Ceiling009]

Actually, I think with a normal blast (fully powered), at 5d6 with slice can't cut through iron; not in one blast anyway. It'd have to at least do 40 pts of damage. In fact, I propose that there should be template or additional use of pressure, or something, cause Katara does the same type of attack against Hu in the swamp. Unless you're allowing blast stacking; or allowing pressure stacking some form of bypassing hardness.

[Eighth_Seraph]

I do too. There is no reason why they shouldn't be able to. Not that most would want to, since larger weapons are not finesse-able, and exotic weapons are not known, and daggers are common. And as I said before, just because it doesn't happen, doesn't mean they can't, and thus doesn't mean it's not canon. There are small things we can add that are easy to extrapolate from the show that don't actually show up. I mean, they really aren't going to go through every possible form, are they? Of course not. That's the entire purpose of this system. What we have here are only seeds, not forms. The Ice Shards seed does not have a clause for making weapons because it is meant to make shards of ice. The point of having seeds is to have a huge supply of possible forms, and thus encompass all the possibilities not presented in the show. Thus, you could have the following form:

Glacier Chain
Water Whip + Ice Shards = DC 24
Silas takes a step back from the fight. Clearly the lashes from his liquid whip could not penetrate his opponent's armor. Unfortunately, it seems that he'll be unable to be merciful today.

A waterbender may, as a standard action, make a special whip comprised of fluid water and wicked barbs of ice which protrude from the liquid. The weapon has all the statistics of a spiked chain except that it deals an additional 2d6 damage, half of which is piercing and half of which is cold damage and has the hardness and hit points of ice, rather than steel. If a waterbender were to use the glacier chain in a trip or disarm attempt, this additional damage is automatically dealt if the initial touch attack is successful. The waterbender is automatically considered to be proficient with this weapon and the glacier chain may be extended and its damage increased in the same way as a water whip.

If a waterbender is already holding a Water Whip, it may be converted to a glacier chain as a move action, rather than a standard action.
This form is most definitely not shown in the Avatar show, or even suggested as possible; but with the seeds we have, it is possible. That is the purpose of this system. It would be possible to make a form creating a greatsword or throwing axe or whatever from ice; but it is not a fundamental waterbender ability and therefore has no place in any of the seeds.

[Ceiling009]

The problem with taking out the clause from Ice Shards is that there is no seed or even a mix of seeds that would outline a decent and understandable way to make a greatsword... If it's just left in Ice shards it completely clears out any problems with it. As seeds are written and taking out that weapon clause, you can't make a sword or anything other than an improvised weapon. Since an ice shard is made, not a dagger of ice, or anything that's considered a weapon, it's improvised and now the bender takes a -4 to use that weapon, and it deals damage based on size (so about 1 pt) of damage. if you make a bigger shard, it's still considered an improvised weapon, only larger. Still the same problems. And you can't use manipulate either, cause it can only make a facsimile of a weapon, and that's still an improvised weapon.

Also on the Manipulation base seed, if someone were to make ice Javelins, which wouldn't melt immediately (ice does not melt to water in less than 6 seconds in a normal place on a normal day), could one just throw them through manipulate? Like all of them? I mean you are moving a 5ft cube of water... and thats a lot of water.

[Pirate_King]

The problem with taking out the clause from Ice Shards is that there is no seed or even a mix of seeds that would outline a decent and understandable way to make a greatsword...


there's a reason for that... because there's no decent and understandable reason to make a greatsword out of ice.

and why make a javelin when you can just use iceshards as normal? and what kind of dm counts something as an improvised weapon when it perfectly emulates that weapon? I mean, a chair leg is a club. only a jerk of a dm is going to make you count it as an improvised weapon.

[Ceiling009]

No that's because that's the rules. Don't pull Rule 0, when there's a clear section for improvised weapons; it's much easier to just allow the original clause to stand. This is coming from someone who's rules lite, but it's the rules, some play more rules heavy or to the letter. That's the point; when working with DnD, I think it's much more fair to those who want to use the homebrew, to not have to resort to rule zero-ing some blatant things that don't need it, like this ice shards business. Who says a great sword made of ice doesn't make sense, when you have flying 6 legged bison?

[Eighth_Seraph]

I'll have to agree with Pirate King on this one. While it is usually distasteful to leave so much up to DM approval in a class; we must recall that such is one of the foundations of our system. Putting a weapon clause into Ice Shards would clear up how exactly to handle the situation; but I don't want to do that, and I don't think that you want me to either, Ceiling. If it were up to me, any weapon made from ice would deal damage as a weapon of its appropriate type (an ice greatsword dealing 2d6 slashing, etc.), but it would take a -4 to attack as an improvised weapon, and an additional -4 if not proficient. If you want an ice greatswor, then make a form and run it by your DM. It doesn't seems to me that the waterbenders we've seen in the show have the kind of control over their element that would allow the making of a solid slashing weapon with a hilt. The water controlled by Katara and Master Pakku was always kind of...blobby if not in rapid motion, and the ice shards were never anything more than simple shards of ice, large or otherwise.

Also, Ceiling, I never said anything about removing the actual Weapon function of Ice Shards. Just the ability to make any weapons other than a shard of ice. As we decided it earlier (I thought Meph had rewritten it...), the Weapon function allowed a waterbender to use an ice shard as a light weapon dealing 1d6 damage, half cold and half piercing. There is no penalty for improvised weapon and the bender is considered proficient. Is that satisfactory?

As for Pakku making big ice shards; that does imply the possibility of increasing the damage dice by a few steps, from d6 to d8 to d10 to d12, maybe, with a +4 DC increase each time. Actually that does sound like a pretty good idea. What do y'all think?

[dman11235]

Dude, you're not even making any sense anymore. If it would clear up any confusion and problems, why not do that? What's to stop you? The way it's worded now it gives you one more thing to combine with other seeds for even more forms. What's to stop you now from making a great hammer with Ice Shards that then becomes a bull rush when combined with Wave, then becomes a golem at the end of the push? That would be a pretty sweet form (though the DC would be high...). And without that weapon clause, I can't do that.

And yes, they do have quite the control needed. I mean, even in the North Pole (can't remember which part) when Katara fights Paku, those disks she flung at him? Perfectly smooth, and very thin on top of that. And later, Paku manages to create tens of barbs and puts Katara in that cage, without harming her at all. That takes finesse. And finally: why does the sword have to be perfect, when it can be slightly bumpy, and just be aesthetics?

[Pirate_King]

And finally: why does the sword have to be perfect, when it can be slightly bumpy, and just be aesthetics?

For a sword, to be wielded like a sword, and damage like a sword, has to be built like a sword. A sword made of ice would function in a different way than a sword made of metal. i.e. something small enough to not fall apart when wielded.

Besides, the philosophies behind water bending (push-pull, flowing etc) do not back up an ability to create a balanced, solid slashing weapon. They even less support the creation of something like a hammer. it's just not water bending style.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Dude, you're not even making any sense anymore. If it would clear up any confusion and problems, why not do that? What's to stop you? The way it's worded now it gives you one more thing to combine with other seeds for even more forms. What's to stop you now from making a great hammer with Ice Shards that then becomes a bull rush when combined with Wave, then becomes a golem at the end of the push? That would be a pretty sweet form (though the DC would be high...). And without that weapon clause, I can't do that. That's precisely the point. Not everything should be possible (though the form you described is possible if you just erase the bit about the hammer). You're growing dangerously close to munchkin levels, Dman; it is only in extremely rare circumstance that I am willing to sacrifice canonical accuracy in exchange for awesomeness of the system. If you think that the system would be more fun to play if the possibilities were expanded, then make a variant on the non-canon thread. That's why Meph made the thing, so that designers like you would be able to make supplements to the system that are fun to use and well-built, but do not represent the Avatar show. Anything in the central system, however, is to be true to the show as we've seen it. In this case, this means accepting the limitations that of bending abilities, despite the lameness that it may contribute to the system.

I also have an idea to fix the issue that was brought up earlier in that benders need to burn a skill point in order to continue getting any better. What if we give each of the bending classes a free skill point each level that must be placed into the respective bending skill. Basically, any bender that doesn't multiclass gets the bending skills maxed out for free, but multiclass benders have to take it out of their own pocket during levels that they multiclass. Thoughts?

Seriously, guys, we've been squabbling over these minor trifles for far too long. Is there anything seriously out of place with the system, something from the show that hasn't been represented, or an ability that doesn't fit in with what the benders in the show appear to be capable of?

[Darkkwalker]

'Nother thing I just watched.
Has anyone seen the Chibi Bending Battle short?
Lavabending by Zuko.
Is this Canon?
Or is it too joke-y?
I know old issue. But thought to bring it up.

[Pirate_King]

not canon. thought about bringing it up earlier, but tis silly.

it has been suggested(by me) making the bending modifier just level + wis, and changing the DC's a bit.

[dman11235]

You seem to think that my suggestions are radical changes to the system. Let me count up my suggestions over the last page (all the ones you deemed "non-canon"):
Water Whip threatens an area.
Water Whip does not provoke AoOs.
Water Whip uses wis to attack, since you don't actually hold it (Single Water Whip).
Ice Shards is left as it is right now, allowing weapons to be created.

Now, how many of those are radical changes to the system? Waterwhip is useless as Tentacle or Ice Shards can do exactly what it does now, only better, so why do you not want to change this again? I admitted that the wis to attack thing was settled a while ago (with me actually being here to see it), but it just makes sense to me. The Ice Shards thing, well, I see no reason to change it. It makes sense the way it is now, and there is absolutely nothing non-canon about it.

As for the bending skill thing, I'd prefer either just a skill, or base it off of class level. Fewer complications. And complications are a bad thing.

[black dragoon]

Hey. I have a question would any of you guys be interested in aiding Me and few others in the Fma homewbrew that recentl came to life? I ask cause you guys made the system I want to use. Sorry to interupt!:smalleek:

[Pirate_King]

You seem to think that my suggestions are radical changes to the system. Let me count up my suggestions over the last page (all the ones you deemed "non-canon"):
Water Whip threatens an area.
Water Whip does not provoke AoOs.
Water Whip uses wis to attack, since you don't actually hold it (Single Water Whip).
Ice Shards is left as it is right now, allowing weapons to be created.



don't change the argument, the only thing we've called non-cannon is the ability to make any weapon with ice shards.

I agree with the whip threatening, it makes sense and makes it more useful (and should be carried over to the firewhip)

I disagree with the whip not provoking AoO because of the motions involved. if you're using it right, no one should be close enough to take advantage of those attacks, anyway.

still eh... about the wis to attack. I'll go with it if others do, but it doesn't sit right for some reason. could be entirely irrational.

My arguments have come from the logical mechanics of it, then canon. The bending system, while it replaces magic in this setting isn't the same as magic. The elements controlled are not magically enhanced, and have the physical properties they would in the real world. A weapon made of ice would not have the same functionality as an identical weapon made of traditional materials.<---primary argument, based on what we have determined of the physics of the show, and its utter lack of magic.

I believe the canon of the world is influenced by the nature of water, oceans and tides and what not, and the weapon creation uses you suggest do not fit those philosophies. <---secondary argument, backed by multiple martial artsy or philosophical speeches within the show.

@ dragoon, that's awesome that you have been inspired by our system. I wish I knew more about full metal alchemist so I could participate.

[dman11235]

The only two reasons I wanted the wis to attack were to make it more different from Ice Shards and because I believe that the Water Whip isn't being held. If the vote is that it's not not being held (note the double negative), then no wis to attack, use primary melee stat (but it will be finesse-able).

And I actually agree with it provoking, the motions would be kind of complex, I was just listing the various suggestions I made, this one I decided it didn't make sense.

As for Ice Shards, that's something that we all have differing opinions on, neither one of us can claim canon support. I don't think either of those arguments you gave are accurate, especially as Frostburn has weapons made of ice, and with bending you can hold them together better. i.e., better hardness, so with this taking Earthbending Study would not be a bad thing. And since you control the element in its fullest possible methods, you could fairly easily create what is effectively a greatsword, or a spiked chain, or a sai, etc. It just wouldn't be a very good looking one until you raised the DC by quite a bit. And then you just hold it together instead of letting it chip.

As for my greathammer-wave-golem combo, what that was was using Ice Shards to create a greathammer, then next round (finding a sudden need to move the opponent and create said golem) you hit with the hammer, morph the ice into a wave (possibly with some more needed), and then carry to enemy a ways (as far as necessary or possible), and at the end a golem pops out of the water that was the wave.

@dragoon: Sure, I can help a bit, though I don't know if I can handle being a part of another project. I'll get back to you on it.

[Eighth_Seraph]

You seem to think that my suggestions are radical changes to the system. Er. I don't think that these changes are radical, quite the opposite, in fact. Actually, I believe that I called them "minor trifles". They are minor changes to seeds that may or may not be supported by the show.

I'm fine with Water Whip threatening an area; though it would get pretty crazy when you have a 25 foot reach and combat reflexes. It needs playtesting. Allowing Water Whip to use Wisdom rather than Dexterity is not a good idea for two reasons. One: Too much reliance on a mental stat eliminates the MAD that we made sure to incorporate into these classes. Two: Because bending is based in martial arts, any technique is guided by bodily motions, and thus rooted in Dexterity. Even if the bender is not holding the whip, it is still her motions controlling it.

The Ice Shards thing, well, I see no reason to change it. It makes sense the way it is now, and there is absolutely nothing non-canon about it. Wrong. We've never seen anyone try to make a weapon from shards and fail, true, but judging from the general style of bending we've seen; the ability is not foundational. Again I'm telling you: seeds should only encompass the foundational concepts governing the benders limitations. Everything else is to be put into forms. This argument is dead and over. Leave it alone.


As for the bending skill thing, I'd prefer either just a skill, or base it off of class level. Fewer complications. And complications are a bad thing. I would also prefer to keep it as a skill; but the points brought up earlier about a bender having to make an investment beyond her class level in order to be effective struck me as true. So we just give each of the benders a nice, fluffy-sounding ability that gives them the ability to max out their bending skill for free as long as they don't multiclass. Like this.

Sustained Training - When first taking a level in a waterberbender, you gain four ranks in the Waterbending skill. At every waterbender level thereafter, you automatically gain one additional rank in Waterbending, in addition to the waterbender's (4 + Intelligence bonus) skill ranks.

And just to make you happy, Dman.

Blade of Frost
Manipulate + Freeze = DC 14 OR Ice Shards (weapon) + Manipulate = DC 19
A true waterbender is never unarmed. The fluidity of water gives us unique, infinite possibilities.
By molding a relatively small quantity of water into her hands, a waterbender may craft any ordinarily wooden or metal melee weapon or ammunition she is familiar with (not necessarily proficient with) out of ice as a full-round action. Any weapon made with this seed deals normal damage for its weapon type, plus 1d4 cold damage; and one use of this seed creates 10 pieces of ammunition at a time. The base DC is for a light weapon; making a one-handed weapon increases the Waterbending DC by +2, and a two-handed weapon increases the DC by +4.If the weapon ever leaves the waterbender’s possession, it begins to melt as normal ice. Thrown weapons and ammunition can be used as normal.

At the base DC, the weapon created by this form is rough and inefficient, imposing a -4 penalty to attack rolls. By increasing the DC by 5 points, a waterbender may remove this penalty. The waterbender may increase the quality of the weapon to a grant a +1 to attack for every further 10 points by which she increases the DC. If your DM approves, then go ahead and use it, but I wouldn't allow it in my own games.

[Pirate_King]

I like the sustained training thing, easily solves the dead level problem.

can I bump my bending for people without levels in the class again? Every time I post about it, it gets ignored for some other pressing matter


I have refined my bending for non-bending classes a bit more, to reflect those who have the skill but do not have the mastery of the bending class (like katara at the beginning of the series, or maybe haru from his first appearance)

Any given bending skill is a cross-class skill if the character does not have levels in the appropriate bending class.

[maybe make bending a class skill for other classes who benefit from a high wis]

The skill grants the appropriate manipulate ability (including freeze/melt for water) and a 1d6 blast (though it incurs a -4 penalty to the attack roll without the appropriate bending study or exotic weapon proficiency feat).

Features that grant bonuses or penalties, such as the child of the sun/moon affect this skill. In addition to the synergy from knowledge (bending), 5 or more ranks in any other bending skill* grants another +2 synergy bonus.

Bending range is 30 feet, save DC 10 + 1/3 character level + the character's wisdom modifier.

Seeds: For each level that the character adds ranks to this skill, she may learn 1 seed, the maximum seeds known being her half wisdom modifier, rounded up. (Ideally, the character would have access to a teacher or scroll to learn these seeds.)

Should the character choose to take a level in the appropriate bending class, the seeds learned before taking the level do not stack with the class's seeds known. Effectively, the character cannot gain new seeds until the class's seeds known is greater than the seeds she knew before taking levels in the bending class.

Example: a level 5 monk with 18 wis has been learning a bit of airbending on the side, and knows 2 seeds. She wants to expand this ability, and decides to multi-class to airbender. She gains all the other abilities of an airbender, but will not learn any more seeds until she gains 4 levels in the class Bottom line - no character will ever know more than 11 seeds without the extra seed feat.

*I added this clause for the non-canon purposes of learning multiple bending skills, but I decided to post this here rather than the non-canon thread because the bulk of the implications are for npc benders or characters who want a bit of bending ability without multi-classing.