[Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

[AstralFire]

Other than the resistance problem, though, the bender should be mostly okay. I'd give them AC as a monk, and I suppose a seed to overcome FR would be good. The ability to make custom +Bending skill items would help a lot.

Seraph, any thoughts on that new set of seed proposals?

Also...

Due to my concern for Armor Class values, I put together a table to examine typical canon core defense/offense stats against Avatar def/off stats to see if there was a difference in gap. Glancing at the data compiled, it doesn't appear that the difference is actually that large as far as AC goes, but now I'm worried about HP, damage output, and DR.


THE PARTICIPANTS:
Canon D&D
L10: +3 Weapons, +1 from Main Stat Enhancer, +3 Armor, +2 Deflection, (Monk=Wis & Barb=Con off-stat enhancer)
L15: +5 Weapons, +2 from Main Stat, +5 Armor, +3 Deflection, +2 Natural Armor, (Monk, Barb & Fight=Dex off-stat enhancer)
L20: +5 Weapons, +3 from MSE, +5 Armor, +4 Deflection, +3 NA, (MFB off-stat enhancer)
- Reggie D. the Human Fighter. Uses a shield. 16 Str, 12 Dex, 18 Con, 8 Int, 10 Wis, 8 Cha.
L1: Weapon Focus (Longsword), Shield Specialization
L2: Power Attack
L3: Shield Ward
L4: Close-Quarters Fighting, 17 Str
L6: Improved Toughness, Weapon Specialization
L8: 18 Str, Greater Weapon Focus
L9: Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing)
L10: Intimidating Strike
L12: Greater Weapon Specialization, Armor Specialization, 19 Str
L14: Slashing Flurry
L15: Iron Will
L16: Howmanyfeats. Blah. Um. Desert Wind Dodge.
L18: Mobility, Weapon Supremacy (Longsword)
L20: Spring Attack
- Lissie the Elf Ranger. Apparently Male. Archer. 10 Str, 18 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Int, 14 Wis, 12 Cha.
L1: Weapon Focus (Longbow)
L2: Rapid Shot
L3: Endurance, Point-Blank Shot
L4: 19 Dex
L6: Manyshot, Precise Shot
L8: 20 Dex
L9: Ranged Pin
L11: Improved Precise Shot
L12: 21 Dex, Improved Rapid Shot
L15: Natural Bond
L16: 22 Dex
L18: Natural Bond
- Ashley the Human Monk. In possibly the most painful sports bra ever. 10 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 13 Int, 14 Wis, 10 Cha.
L1: Dodge, Stunning Fist
L2: Combat Reflexes
L3: Weapon Finesse
L4: 17 Dex
L6: Improved Trip, Improved Natural Attack
L8: 18 Dex
L9: Superior Unarmed Strike
L12: Weapon Focus (Unarmed), 19 Dex
L15: Mage-Slayer
L16: 20 Dex
L18: Stand Still
L20: DR 10/M
- Krunk the Half-Orc Barbarian. Extremely unfraggable. 20 Str, 12 Dex, 14 Con, 6 Int, 10 Wis, 10 Cha.
L1: Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
L3: Power Attack
L4: 21 Str.
L6: Leap Attack
L8: 22 Str.
L9: Improved Bull Rush
L12: Shock Trooper, 23 Str.
L15: Improved Resilience
L16: 24 Str
L18: Reckless Offense

MAB: Melee Attack Bonus
RAB: Ranged Attack Bonus
AC: Armor Class
TAC: Touch Armor Class
DR: Damage Reduction
HP: Health Points

TABLE 1: CANON D&D
{table=head]Character & Level|MAB|RAB|AC|TAC|DR|HP
Level 1||||||
Reggie D|+05|+02|21|11|--/-|014
Lissie* |+02|+06|18|14|--/-|010
Ashley* |-02|+03|16|16|--/-|010
Krunk** |+08|+02|12|09|--/-|016
Level 5||||||
Reggie D|+09|+06|23|14|--/-|052
Lissie |+05|+10|19|14|--/-|036
Ashley |+06|+07|18|17|--/-|036
Krunk |+12|+06|15|09|--/-|058
Level 10||||||
Reggie D|+21|+11|29|18|03/-|109
Lissie |+10|+19|25|17|--/-|068
Ashley |+11|+11|25|22|--/-|068
Krunk |+20|+11|19|11|02/-|120
Level 15||||||
Reggie D***|+23|+16|40|25|05/-|162
Lissie |+15|+27|31|20|--/-|101
Ashley |+19|+19|32|24|--/-|101
Krunk |+29|+16|24|12|04/-|208
Level 20||||||
Reggie D|+30|+21|44|26|05/-|214
Lissie |+20|+33|36|23|--/-|133
Ashley |+24|+23|37|28|10/M|133
Krunk |+36|+21|27|13|06/-|315
[/table]

Avatar d20
- Azulie the Firebender. Control freak. Adorable lisp. 10 Str, 16 Dex, 12 Con, 12 Int, 16 Wis, 10 Cha.
L1: Focused Bending (Fire Blast), Skill Focus (Firebending)
L3: Weapon Focus (Fire Blast)
L4: 17 Dex
L6: Template Mastery (Focus Fire)
L8: 18 Dex
L9: Template Mastery (Heat Wave)
L12: Template Mastery (Explosion), 19 Dex
L15: Template Mastery (Flamethrower)
L16: 20 Dex
L18: Focused Bending (Cold Fire)
- Cohen the Barbarian. Old dude. Smart, but a jerk. 18 Str, 12 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 10 Wis, 12 Cha.
L1: Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Power Attack
L3: Leap Attack
L4: 19 Str.
L6: Improved Bull Rush
L8: 20 Str.
L9: Shock Trooper
L12: Improved Resilience, 21 Str
L15: Reckless Offense
L16: 24 Str
L18: Reckless Charge
- Hayley the Rogue. How did she get here...? 12 Str, 14 Dex, 10 Con, 16 Int, 12 Wis, 14 Cha.
L1: Improved Initiative, Combat Expertise
L3: Weapon Finesse
L4: 15 Dex
L6: Improved Feint
L8: 16 Dex
L9: Deadly Precision
L12: Arterial Strike, 17 Dex
L15: Improved Disarm
L16: 18 Dex
L18: Weapon Focus (Stabby)

(Non-fire benders that may have any special seed uses I am unaware of that can grant AC may not be modeled well... or at all. Be warned, I only know much about Firebender design at this point in time.

I've spent around five hours on this today, so I'm not going to model Earth (Mareeon), Air (Krang), Water (Serfir), or Martial Artists (Ruiji), since I have to also learn those mechanics better THEN make the chart. I'll make charts for them later sometime.)

* Lissie and Ashley are considered to always be Flurrying or Rapid Shotting.
** Krunk's attack roll table does not consider Power Attack, as during a full attack he subtracts from his attack roll, but during a charge he subtracts from his AC. Krunk's Armor and Attack table considers him as raging at all times.
*** Reggie D's attack takes a -5 penalty so he can use Slashing Flurry. His Desert Wind Dodge feat is not taken into consideration as his other calculations are made under a full attack basis.

RAC: Ranged Armor Class

As Touch AC isn't really a notable feature of the ATLA d20 system, the TAC column for this table is being replaced with a "RAC." (...Wait, why did I do a FRIGGIN' TOUCH AC TABLE FOR D&D THEN?! OH MY GOD! )(*#(*(&*#()#)*#_$ I'M AN IDIOT) RAC is very hard for someone of my low math skill to model, because it gets artificially inflated by Deflect Attack. What I'm going to do is take the higher of (RAB+10-Class Appropriate Penalties), versus AC - the higher+1 becomes TAC. Multiple Deflect attempts on the same attack I'd consider a +1 effective AC bonus (that's just a wild guess on my part, I don't know how to handle rerolls at entirely different values) though I'm unsure if iterative deflects take a -5 penalty like iterative attacks do. Seraph, Meph? Regardless, I have not attempted to consider multiple deflects a round. Note that that Touch AC for the bender is only inflated as long as they have deflect attempts remaining.

TABLE 2: AVATAR D20, 2.0
{table=head]Character & Level|MAB|RAB|AC|RAC|DR|HP
Level 1||||||
Azulie |-02|+01|15|16|--/-|007
Cohen |+07|+02|13|13|02/-|016
Hayley |+01|+02|15|15|01/-|006
Level 5||||||
Azulie |+02|+07|17|18|--/-|025
Cohen |+12|+06|14|14|02/-|058
Hayley |+06|+05|16|16|02/-|020
Level 10||||||
Azulie |+07|+12|19|23|--/-|047
Cohen |+18|+11|16|16|06/-|110
Hayley |+10|+09|18|19|04/-|034
Level 15||||||
Azulie |+11|+16|21|27|--/-|070
Cohen |+24|+16|18|18|12/-|178
Hayley |+15|+14|20|20|06/-|048
Level 20||||||
Azulie |+15|+20|23|31|--/-|092
Cohen |+26|+21|20|20|15/-|255
Hayley |+20|+19|22|22|07/-|062[/table]

SUMMARY: ...I'm not quite sure what to make of all of this. I just basically spent the day infodumping, but I figure this data is -good to have- if nothing else. AC is comparatively not too much of an issue, unlike my fears though HP definitely is. Up to this point, my balance considerations were based around standard D&D and the baseline comparison we had a few pages back discussing what each bender-type was capable of in damage. It looks like, though, anything not called 'Barbarian' is pretty much going to die to the first salvo of attacks that aren't physical damage based. (Martial Artists and Fighters can probably take a second salvo.) Rogues are walking death, too.

EDIT: But then again everyone not a bender is hitting softer... Don't pay much attention to my analysis right now, my brain is very tired. I hope the numbers are useful.

[Jabsco]

Character Optimizer
Before I found these Classes
I had a Fire Bender Worked out as
Monk2/Psion(ken)4/Pyro4/Slayer10
The build Above was not a fire focused nor could it reproduce all of the things i wanted it to, thought it was much more powerful. But then I stumbled along The Avatar D20 project and my problems were solved!

And i have found some use from the 3.5 System, A +20 bending Item would only cost 40,000 (only 24,000 if it is a human only Item, with 10 ranks in Knowledge Bending required to use it) Plus Other magic Items Are nice!

[Eighth_Seraph]

Such an item would be absurdly broken. In general, my advice is to ban all skill bonus items to bending. Seriously, a +10 to Firebending item is minor artifact-level power.

[AstralFire]

Such an item would be absurdly broken. In general, my advice is to ban all skill bonus items to bending. Seriously, a +10 to Firebending item is minor artifact-level power.

But benders do not benefit from magic weapons or most magic items. I'm kind of torn on that (and I originally came into this thread, amusingly, when I was trying to determine the balance of that very same thing.)

Anyway, some feedback on the seed revisions'd be cool and... again, really not sure what to make of that big pile of tables I just dropped on the thread. I've been doing this for like eight hours now. @_@

[Jabsco]

Is it Really that broken when the guy next to you has contingent time stops, or 5 free miracles a day? My party consists of An Artificer, Shadow Crafter, Wizard, And A druid. I think I will be Underpowered. We'll see though.

I was never worried about being over powered, Under powered was my bigest concern.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Slow down your creative process a bit, AstralFire, or start sending your ideas to yourself in PMs and store them for now. Most of us don't have the time or wouldn't want to put our entire day into working on the Avatar project. I'm still processing your seeds, and I spend far more time than is healthy on this project. I approve of Burning Edge, with some rewording, along with most of the seed revisions, but I still maintain that the seeds should keep their multiple applications, which you essentially have kept in your rendition, while taking away the labels and making it harder to tell exactly what the seeds do altogether.

Upping AC is a necessity for the benders right now, but reducing seed progression is a no-no, since that would increase the dead level problem. The fire resistances demonstrate situations like this one (http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/103/502.jpg), in which the firebender seems to passively bend heat away, effectively lessening the damage done. Note that a firebender can bypass fire resistance equal to his own. Also, the flavor for Endurance does not suit firebenders, who are not particularly known for their ability to travel long distances tirelessly, etc.

AstralFire, I think that you're falling into a trap of game design that goes hand-in-hand with having way too much free time. It's commonly known as "trying too hard". I find that the first edition of most things you make looks best, before you "Make it better". Seriously, Sweltering Blast was very much nicer than Heat Wave. I usually practice my tae kwon do after too much time on the computer, which in turn inspires me to improve my monk class, which eventually takes me back to tae kwon do. Find something to keep you in balance, so that the project and the computer don't suck your life away.

[AstralFire]

Right now I'm a little frustrated with hunting for jobs, so I've been taking a break from resumés. Now's as good a time as any to be productive in something else.
:)

The AC gap doesn't appear to be that big of an issue - Wis to AC would be nice, though, as I had to focus Azulie on Dex instead of Wis by a lot. Giving them that would alleviate some of their issues. Could probably use a bigger hit die for the benders and the rogue both.

I think it's more a problem with damage reduction stacking. I'd have to do some numbers crunching, but between armor as DR, the Barbarian's innate DR, and DR to armor thing it looks like Earth/Airbenders and Flurry Martial Artists won't be able to deal him any significant damage. (Just a guess on the benders, I know Water can deal some Cold damage but I think Earth and Air are limited to physical types.)

Some of the HP issue could probably be alleviated at a higher point buy, but a HD size increase for benders and rogues might be a better solution. (Rogues don't need AC as badly, though, as they have less MAD and can get away with armor easier.)

I feel Sweltering Blast was poor design on my part, which I have done before. I can have a 'throw things and see what sticks' philosophy to design. Sweltering, you're okay as long as you five-foot step out. Your buddy stepping in is cool. That's nearly useless. Heat Wave offers a better way to actually perform battlefield control by making the enemy choose whether or not they're going to mess with an area you've tagged - if the advantage of having that space is worth the fatigue. Conversely, of course, if you blow it too early it's no longer a consideration since the enemy is already fatigued so a tagged space is the same as an untagged.

Also, your own party has to be careful where they step.

[Zuki]

...However, damage would still be subpar, as I can relate, since the class was not designed to take advantage of magic items, and as long as Fire Blast is a ranged attack roll instead of a ranged touch attack, the bender won't be hitting much. The solution I came up with in a dungeon-crawl one-shot campaign was to keep a ball of fire borrowed from our binder in my palm. The binder had an 8d6 damage breath attack, which I then caught using Play with Fire and continued to draw from throughout the rest of the adventure, keeping a small flame in my palm as a torch when not splitting it in half for a blast. This was at level 5, I think. Good times.

Long time lurker, first-time poster. Before anything else, I just want to say, I'm a big, big, fan of this project. Really fired up for it, love to help it to completion. I don't have the best head for creating mechanics though, but I'm happy to help evaluate them and provide input later on.

I've been happy to keep lurking and watch the discussion roll by, for the most part. But...this temporary solution to the Firebenders then-low damage confuses me. How exactly does borrowing the flame from the Binder's breath weapon instead of the Bender generating his own flame result in increased damage? Fire is fire, right?

*confuzzled* :smallconfused:

[Eighth_Seraph]

Not necessarily. Why does a fireball deal increasing damage based on caster levels? Why do older dragons' breath attacks deal more damage? Why does a burning piece of paper cause discomfort while a welding torch can literally burn your fingers off? There are different stages of heat in fire.

The binder's breath weapon did 8d6 damage, but my Fire Blast damage was, like, 2d6 or 3d6. So I borrowed his fire whenever I could. Seemed to work well enough. Until I burned down a hall made entirely of plant matter, with the party still inside. Fire and smoke in every direction for 60 feet. Predictable, really. It was our DMs younger brother DMing that day, and he didn't appreciate my taking his usual "I blow it up" schtick away from him. So yeah. That's my thermodynamics lesson for today.

Also, a hearty welcome to the project, Zuki! We seem to have a lot of lurkers, don't we?

[Pirate_King]

Such an item would be absurdly broken. In general, my advice is to ban all skill bonus items to bending. Seriously, a +10 to Firebending item is minor artifact-level power.

I think this is stems from the difference between using a firebender in the Avatar world and using one in a traditional D&D game where they must compete with magic users. +10 is a minor artifact level power, but it wouldn't be broken in a normal D&D setting. The Avatar setting has nothing in canon that really does such a thing, since there are no magic items on account of there being no magic.

The question is, then, do we want to make a separate thread to make the bending classes fit better into the rest of the 3.5 rules, counting bending as a supernatural ability, or do we leave that to the non-canon thread? I think it's possible to integrate how benders work in the show with the rest of the D&D world without letting people who aren't familiar with avatar (OMG FREE FIREBALL) butcher the system or the philosophies behind it.

[AstralFire]

So to reiterate my earlier question, Deflect Attack -is- intended to suffer from the iterative attack penalty, correct?

Also, as earlier requested, raised DCs across the board on Play/Manipulate Fire.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Yes, it should. We should make that explicit in the ability's description.

[AstralFire]

Looking over airbenders now, a question; Palm Bow, is it intended to begin firing projectiles on the second round? I've garnered that impression from it needing only a standard action to begin and a full-round to maintain, as otherwise an airbender with a good bending skill could very easily quicken to a move and fire off a new one each round.

Also, is your intent with Air Blast for there to be no damage from sending someone into an object for the first five levels? And it's supposed to cap out at 4d6?

Would it work to deal pummeling damage from above into the ground? If not, could you pummel someone multiple times a round against the same object, since they're already against that object too?

The Airbender's air blasts by default are ranged touch, right? But they all can bull rush the target, while a touch attack seems to be something that just has to nick the target. Air Scythe should definitely remain touch, but I'm not sure about the air blast by default.

(Also small error with the firebender; fire sweep, unlike burst and flamethrower, was not meant to increase the time for bending.)

[Paragon Badger]

Some ideas I came up with while making a firebender, and watching Sozin's Comet again. ;-)

I would suggest changing Fire Sweep a bit, making it a generic fireblast rather than dependent on one's feet. A few times, We see firebenders making chopping motions with their hands and creating crescent-shaped fire. But like the conventional Fire Sweep, it's been used by one's feet, too.

Examples: In The Chase (If that's the title, I can't remember...), Azula slashes through a few buildings to get to Aang, and Zuko later creates a wide (but harmless) arc after seeing Iroh injured.

In their final battle of the show, Azula opened with a few firey roundhouses, and Zuko created a few wide arcs with his break-dancing move in the same battle. Essentially, this would just be applying the Fire Kick Template.

Right after Aang went all Avatar State in the finale, Ozai seemed to attempt beheading him with a firey chop.

Also, because it seemed particularly potent in slicing buildings, it might do half fire/half slashing damage.

Also, I'd advocate AstralFire's Burning Rush strongly, but lower the base DC a bit. Ozai was almost as fast as Aang was during their final battle.

[Pirate_King]

Also, I'd advocate AstralFire's Burning Rush strongly, but lower the base DC a bit. Ozai was almost as fast as Aang was during their final battle.

Ozai was also powered by the comet.

I agree, making firesweep possible without feet seems canon, and would make it possible to use the firekick template on it.

[Superglucose]

Out of curiosity, how long do the weapons created by a firebender made of fire last? If firebenders can't get full attacks out of those weapons the weapons are useless, and the way it looks like it's written a firebender uses a move action to make the weapon, gets his one (1) attack, and then it disappears.

Maybe require a concentration check to keep the flames going or something?

[felinoel]

Out of curiosity, how long do the weapons created by a firebender made of fire last? If firebenders can't get full attacks out of those weapons the weapons are useless, and the way it looks like it's written a firebender uses a move action to make the weapon, gets his one (1) attack, and then it disappears.

Maybe require a concentration check to keep the flames going or something?

It doesn't seem that hard on the show... maybe a small concentration check to keep the flames going, which isn't exactly fair for an air and firebender, their weapons they create from bending would have to constantly be concentrated on, while a water and earthbender can make their weapons and they stay there, unless the waterbender uses a water whip or makes an ice weapon in really hot temperature, then she would have to concentrate on the weapon...

[Superglucose]

Then have the weapons stay there until the bender lets them go? I just don't think they should disappear at the end of the round.

[felinoel]

Then have the weapons stay there until the bender lets them go? I just don't think they should disappear at the end of the round.
Oh which reminds me, when I last looked at the bending forms, I could not find the create weapon for airbenders? Although it is never shown to be possible, Aang does go into great detail about a wind sword

[AstralFire]

If you're talking about my version (since the official one doesn't include a one round duration):


A firebender may, as a move action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, form a long, narrow tongue of fire. This weapon has all the statistics of a shortsword with the exception that it deals 1d6 fire damage. Additionally, a firebender may treat it as a normal shortsword for purposes of weapon-based feats, although they may not trip or disarm (or be disarmed) with this weapon as it is made of fire and thus insubstantial. Firebenders are considered proficient with these weapons, even if they are not proficient with normal shortswords. The weapon only lasts for one round, although the firebender can choose to maintain it every round afterwards at the original DC as a swift action. If the weapon ever leaves the firebender's hand, it immediately dissipates.

[felinoel]

If you're talking about my version (since the official one doesn't include a one round duration):

What about airbenders not getting create weapon?

[AstralFire]

What about airbenders not getting create weapon?

Hey, I'm not the one in charge of the project. *shrug* But not only is it something we don't see in the show, it's also something that's kind of hard to visualize or comprehend, a physical weapon made out of air.

[felinoel]

Hey, I'm not the one in charge of the project. *shrug* But not only is it something we don't see in the show, it's also something that's kind of hard to visualize or comprehend, a physical weapon made out of air.
Aang describes it pretty well if I remember right, maybe I should go find the transcript and quote him...

[Pirate_King]

We went over fire weapons much earlier in the development, and perhaps it hasn't been changed on the website, but as far as I was aware, we were limiting the creation to daggers, since that's the only thing we see aside from whips on the show.

Aang's description of a "wind sword" doesn't really describe the use of a weapon. bending air around the hilt of a sword like that would probably simply produce the effects of the air scythe seed

[felinoel]

We went over fire weapons much earlier in the development, and perhaps it hasn't been changed on the website, but as far as I was aware, we were limiting the creation to daggers, since that's the only thing we see aside from whips on the show.

Aang's description of a "wind sword" doesn't really describe the use of a weapon. bending air around the hilt of a sword like that would probably simply produce the effects of the air scythe seed

Oh I remember that seed, I better go give it another look then

[Superglucose]

Cool and all on the daggers, but how long do they last?

[felinoel]

Cool and all on the daggers, but how long do they last?

I think they said indefinitely

[Eighth_Seraph]

The fire daggers last as long as a firebender is willing to maintain them.

Also, I'm really disappointed that we never saw the Wind Sword ability, even in the finale. Ah well. Maybe some kind of ability that lets an airbender channel his blast through a melee attack, firebender-style? Or could we make it a form?

[Superglucose]

Excellent! A build occurs to me :smallamused:

[felinoel]

The fire daggers last as long as a firebender is willing to maintain them.

Also, I'm really disappointed that we never saw the Wind Sword ability, even in the finale. Ah well. Maybe some kind of ability that lets an airbender channel his blast through a melee attack, firebender-style? Or could we make it a form?
When I suggested that Pirate King said to look at the Air Scythe

[String]

Quick Question (Yay Free Internet at the Airport!): Whats the consensus on Earthbenders using already existing rock formations to do earthbending? I'm reffering specifically to the finale where Aang shows this at least twice:

1) The move where he causes two of the pillars to crush together. What the hell seed/form is that? DC?

2) Where he rebounds off one pillar and kicks another, causing it to BREAK IN HALF (cleanly, I might add) and fly towards Ozai. That is definetly not an Earth Blast. (I am willing to believe that the giant rock-on-foot thing was , tho)

[felinoel]

Quick Question (Yay Free Internet at the Airport!): Whats the consensus on Earthbenders using already existing rock formations to do earthbending? I'm reffering specifically to the finale where Aang shows this at least twice:

1) The move where he causes two of the pillars to crush together. What the hell seed/form is that? DC?

2) Where he rebounds off one pillar and kicks another, causing it to BREAK IN HALF (cleanly, I might add) and fly towards Ozai. That is definetly not an Earth Blast. (I am willing to believe that the giant rock-on-foot thing was , tho)And there is also those giant coin-like things Earth Kingdom soldiers bent at Aang trying to get him to get in the avatar state, and I do remember a statue flying around by an earthbender somewhere

[Mephibosheth]

Quick Question (Yay Free Internet at the Airport!): Whats the consensus on Earthbenders using already existing rock formations to do earthbending? I'm reffering specifically to the finale where Aang shows this at least twice:

1) The move where he causes two of the pillars to crush together. What the hell seed/form is that? DC?

2) Where he rebounds off one pillar and kicks another, causing it to BREAK IN HALF (cleanly, I might add) and fly towards Ozai. That is definetly not an Earth Blast. (I am willing to believe that the giant rock-on-foot thing was , tho)

In general, situations like these are where DM/player cooperation come into play, since we can't make rules to account for every possible situation. In the case of the two pillars, you could rule it was an Earth Blast (or at least dealt damage as one) combined with some form of Immobilize. In the second case, it might very well just be an Earth Blast with the DM ruling a bit of extra damage because of the size. Each DM is probably going to handle the situation in a different way, which is what we want to encourage.

Also, I know I've gotten behind in the thread. I'll try to catch up, but it might take awhile.

Mephibosheth

[felinoel]

In general, situations like these are where DM/player cooperation come into play, since we can't make rules to account for every possible situation. In the case of the two pillars, you could rule it was an Earth Blast (or at least dealt damage as one) combined with some form of Immobilize. In the second case, it might very well just be an Earth Blast with the DM ruling a bit of extra damage because of the size. Each DM is probably going to handle the situation in a different way, which is what we want to encourage.

Also, I know I've gotten behind in the thread. I'll try to catch up, but it might take awhile.

Mephibosheth
What about the giant coins though?

[Mephibosheth]

What about the giant coins though?

Same thing. I'd rule they're nothing more than Earth Blasts, just with a different description. Again, if you wanted to, you could give some extra damage dice or something, but it doesn't even need to be that complicated, necessarily.

[felinoel]

Same thing. I'd rule they're nothing more than Earth Blasts, just with a different description. Again, if you wanted to, you could give some extra damage dice or something, but it doesn't even need to be that complicated, necessarily.

Interesting...

[Gmmaster42]

I just thought about something. I don't know if this is the right place to mention it, but what effect does aging actually have on benders? I know what the effects normally are in D&D, but we've definitely seen old people doing some amazingly dexterous stunts. Iroh, Paku and Roku come to mind immediately (although Roku was an Avatar). Another question, does the Avatar's connection to the spirits give him an extended life? I seem to recall Avatar Kyoshi living to be 250 years old, and she looks not a day older than 30. Then again Avatar Roku was about 65 maybe 70 when he died and did look like an old man. Looks like time really wasn't kind to Roku...

[felinoel]

I just thought about something. I don't know if this is the right place to mention it, but what effect does aging actually have on benders? I know what the effects normally are in D&D, but we've definitely seen old people doing some amazingly dexterous stunts. Iroh, Paku and Roku come to mind immediately (although Roku was an Avatar). Another question, does the Avatar's connection to the spirits give him an extended life? I seem to recall Avatar Kyoshi living to be 250 years old, and she looks not a day older than 30. Then again Avatar Roku was about 65 maybe 70 when he died and did look like an old man. Looks like time really wasn't kind to Roku...Kyoshi's spirit is probably from when she was younger, and Guru Pthik is about 130, I think these humans just have an extended lifetime

[Pirate_King]

There do seem to be some continuity issues there, though. Still, spirit roku doesn't look quite as bedraggled as old man roku from The Avatar and the Firelord, but that could be situational. I'd run that they project how they view themselves in the spirit world, and Roku sees himself as aged because of his shame in his inability to stop the war from happening, or something, and let age do what it does to anyone. I wouldn't put Iroh or Paku at venerable age yet, wisdom gets better with age, and most benders would take a high dex anyway.

[felinoel]

There do seem to be some continuity issues there, though. Still, spirit roku doesn't look quite as bedraggled as old man roku from The Avatar and the Firelord, but that could be situational. I'd run that they project how they view themselves in the spirit world, and Roku sees himself as aged because of his shame in his inability to stop the war from happening, or something, and let age do what it does to anyone. I wouldn't put Iroh or Paku at venerable age yet, wisdom gets better with age, and most benders would take a high dex anyway.
I think that too, because when Aang was in Fire Nation clothes and he entered the Spirit World, not only did he get his monk robes back, but he also was bald again =b

[Mephibosheth]

So, as promised, this is my “catch up to the crazy amount of debate that occurred while I was out of town” post. I hope I at least touch on all the important issues.

The first thing I want to address is the effort to re-balance the firebender. AstralFire, I realize you’ve put a lot of work into your re-writes and I really appreciate the input, but I don’t think I can support accepting it as a whole. This project is so close to being completed and the basic structure has worked so far, I just don’t think that the degree of overhaul you propose is necessary. That said, there are a lot of things about your newest firebender (found in the first post of page 34) that I like and support including, listed below.
Reducing the bending range. I support reducing the bending range for all bending classes from the current level (40 ft plus 5 ft/level) to 30 ft plus 5 ft/2 levels, giving a maximum basic range of 40 ft. I also support making each 5 ft range increase require a cumulative +2 DC increase, rather than a +1 DC increase. I think it’s important for benders to remain able to increase their range, but not to the extent they currently can.
Alterations of the Manipulate Fire ability (with some minor changes, but in general keeping it as you wrote). It’s just more clearly delineated than the original version.
Your changes to the Burning Rush seed. It condenses and simplifies everything.
Your re-write of Incandescence. Your version is more useful than the original. My only comment would be to make it explicit that the object takes damage as well as dealing damage to creatures that touch it. Also, it should clarify whether the object gets a reflex save when the seed is first used or each round.
Your original Heat Wave (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4573596&postcount=923) template seed, with the Lingering Flames seed from the most recent write-up replacing the Conflagrate application.
Your Focus Fire seed, but as a feat to represent Azula’s blue fire.
Your Pyrotechnics seed.
Your new versions of Cold Fire, with the only suggested change being a reduction in the penalty to Deflect Attack attempts to -10 or even -5. I re-watched the finale last night, and Aang deflects Ozai’s lightening at least twice.

There are also a few other changes to the current version of the firebender that I support. These may or may not have been brought up in the past, but I want to make them clear.
First and foremost, altering the structure of all AoE firebending seeds except Fire Sweep to base the damage off the Firebending check rather than Fire Blast damage. The goal of this change is to increase the utility of AoE seeds and make them more viable at high levels without having them completely overshadow the Fire Blast. Most of them would follow the pattern “1d6 points of fire damage, plus an additional 1d6 points of fire damage for every 5 by which the firebender’s skill check exceeds the base DC.”
Explicitly allowing Fire Sweep to be used as an iterative attack while keeping its damage based on Fire Blast. Also removing references to feet or kicks, so that it can be done with the hands as well.
Changing the name of Fire Kick to Farflame and removing the ability to deal extra damage. The mechanic for expanding the range of the seeds would remain the same.
Altering the text of Explosion to allow it to be used with more seeds than just Fire Blast.
Altering the Intensity seed as follows:


Intensity (Template)
Base DC: +20
• Intensify: Oftentimes, from a firebender’s point of view, a fire is simply not hot enough. A firebender can combine this template with any damage-dealing firebending seed to increase the damage dealt by 1d6. A firebender can similarly increase the damage dealt by an already existing source of fire within his bending range. Using this seed on a firebending seed is part of the action of that seed, while using it on an already-exisiting source of fire is a standard action. A firebender can increase the damage dealt by increasing the base DC by +10 for every additional 1d6 of fire damage.
• Quench: A little-used form among most firebenders, a firebender can use this seed to extinguish fire in a single 5-foot square within his bending range as a standard action. A firebender can affect a larger area of fire by increasing the base DC by 2 for every additional 5-foot square.
Altering Blades of Fire to include a duration for the created weapons, probably based off AstralFire’s seed.

I hope this list of changes addresses most (if not all) of the concerns with the firebender. What do people think about these tweaks?

Next, I want to address fire resistance. In a canon game (which is what this system is being designed for), the only source of fire resistance is either levels in firebender or the Fire Retardant armor craftsmanship bonus. An item with fire resistance 10 would cost almost 10,000 gp (not really available until after 10th level). I’m not too worried about fire resistance limiting the effectiveness of firebenders any more than I’m worried about damage reduction negating the other benders. Also, Eighth_Seraph, you mentioned firebenders overcoming fire resistance and I know we talked about it, but I can’t find it in the current write-up. Do you remember what the mechanic was? I think that would be a good thing to include, if only for Agni Kai purposes.

Next, the issue of bender survivability. The suggestion was made to increase all bender hit dice to d8’s and I don’t have a problem with this. Ultimately, benders can access almost as much armor as anyone else and (with the exception of airbenders) can acquire damage reduction and all sorts of other resistances through their armor. In prior playtesting battles, we had problems with AC for almost everyone being ridiculously high, and we toned down the wealth-by-level guidelines for this very reason. If we increase their HD and take DR, other resistances, and Deflect Attack into account, I don’t see a problem. Again, this will probably come out with playtesting, but for the nonce…

Next, some question on the airbender.

Looking over airbenders now, a question; Palm Bow, is it intended to begin firing projectiles on the second round? I've garnered that impression from it needing only a standard action to begin and a full-round to maintain, as otherwise an airbender with a good bending skill could very easily quicken to a move and fire off a new one each round.
It’s intended to be usable during the same round it’s initiated, provided there are projectiles at hand. The seed was created to represent a specific instance, and is limited based on that. We should probably prohibit quickening the full-round action needed to maintain it, since that’s not how it worked in the show (the Imprisoned episode from season 1, in case you’re interested).

Also, is your intent with Air Blast for there to be no damage from sending someone into an object for the first five levels? And it's supposed to cap out at 4d6?
Yeah, we should probably add a “minimum 1d6” clause in there somewhere. However, airbenders weren’t built to be able to deal damage on the level of other benders. That’s not how airbenders are supposed to operate.

Would it work to deal pummeling damage from above into the ground? If not, could you pummel someone multiple times a round against the same object, since they're already against that object too?
I would rule you can’t do this, and we should probably specify. Thanks for catching this.

The Airbender's air blasts by default are ranged touch, right? But they all can bull rush the target, while a touch attack seems to be something that just has to nick the target. Air Scythe should definitely remain touch, but I'm not sure about the air blast by default.
We decided to make it ranged touch for a few reasons. First, because there are multiple opportunities to resist and Air Blast, it should be easier to hit. Second, an Air Blast doesn’t necessarily have to penetrate armor or shields to push someone back, meaning it functions best as a ranged touch. Think of it as not so much nicking the target, but hitting the target’s mass before being stopped by armor.

Next, the proposal was made to craft a seed for a wind sword like Aang mentions in Sokka’s Master. I could see two possible methods for this. First, creating a seed that allows the airbender to create a sword that deals slashing damage. Second, would be to simply make it a combination of Air Scythe and Wind Shaping. I could see going either way, and will support whatever has consensus.

I know I’m not addressing ageing in the Avatar world at this point, but I haven’t had a chance to give it much thought. I hope I’ve touched on everything else. Comments?

Mephibosheth

Edit: I forgot to mention. If you search "avatar d20" without quotes on google, our websitecomes up as the second match and the discussion threads come up third. If you put it in quotes, the website comes up first and the discussion second. Go us!

Edit II: I'm an idiot. Apparently you don't need to succeed on a touch attack to initiate a bull rush. Still, my other two arguments stand.

[Eighth_Seraph]

*Wild Applause*

We're getting something done! Something concrete! w00t! I don't know if that was an official "I'm gonna go put this on the website and OP now" or an "I support this", but I think it's good that we're getting this done. I do, however, disagree on two points. 1) Changing Fire Kick to Farflame. I dunno, it's just a cheesy name. Go ahead and use it if you like, but any firebender I write up will be kicking his fire blasts to go long range.

2) That benders have a ridiculously high AC. Maybe in the first round of playtesting; but bender ACs (and, well, everyone's, really) are absolutely pitiful right now. Of the four benders in the level 15 PCs vs. Monsters arena match, two have an AC 20, and two have AC 19. Combine that with a base attack of +15 for warrior classes plus a minimum Strength or Dex of 16 plus a decently masterwork weapon (Let's say a simple weapon of Fame), and any basic level-appropriate opponent can hit a bender without even rolling, with a +21 to their first attack. Then there's there squishiness, which is already being addressed with the larger hit dice.

One thing that I've noticed in the arena matches is that people tend to forget that class defense bonus and armor bonuses don't stack. So ACs of 25 go down to 20 right before a match starts. My idea is to allow the Mastercrafting bonus to AC, not the original armor bonus, stack with class defense. This reflects standard D&D, in that the magical bonuses to armor are enhancement bonuses, and thus stack with class defense bonuses. Not a problem with the bending classes, of course, but it's relevant to the current discussion.

I would also like to point out that airbenders are beyond squishy at this point. Without even basic armor proficiency, they don't get the DR 2/- that fire and earthbenders get with masterwork chainmail, which doesn't incur an armor check penalty. Further, their AC is quite nearly as low as all the other benders, though their Wisdom to AC is helping. Dodge bonus doesn't do very much until higher levels. Not too many people want to playtest the airbender for some reason, so there's little to work with in terms of hard data.

[Shades of Gray]

Did we institute a rule saying it's easier to deflect your own element? A Firebender can deflect fire easily, just by making his arms repel fire.

EDIT: And what about my suggestion for bending study feats for martial characters? I remember them being something like:

Fire: Add Wis to damage when charging

Water: Once per day re-roll failed attack roll

Earth: When you don't move in a round you gain +4 versus Trip, Overrun, and Bull rush checks.

Air: I think it was Wis to AC.

[AstralFire]

Re: Airbenders and Ranged Touch:


Third, an Air Blast doesn’t necessarily have to penetrate armor or shields to push someone back, meaning it functions best as a ranged touch. Think of it as not so much nicking the target, but hitting the target’s mass before being stopped by armor.

That's pretty much exactly how bludgeoning damage works, though (how Earth and Water Blast work). And a strike strongly placed on someone's mass enough to move them with air, I would argue, would also subject them to quite a lot of heat when hit by a firebender unless their armor contains a double-layered vacuum seal. But those are not ranged touch.

[Mephibosheth]

*Wild Applause*

We're getting something done! Something concrete! w00t! I don't know if that was an official "I'm gonna go put this on the website and OP now" or an "I support this", but I think it's good that we're getting this done. I do, however, disagree on two points. 1) Changing Fire Kick to Farflame. I dunno, it's just a cheesy name. Go ahead and use it if you like, but any firebender I write up will be kicking his fire blasts to go long range.

*bows gracefully and waves* Thank you, thank you. It was really nothing :smallwink:.

I'm also a fan of getting things done. The above post is simply an "I support the following" post, but I would be more than happy to make those changes to the website, provided there's no significant objection. I always want to at least try to get community approval before making a change on the website.

I really don't care which name we go with. I was just looking for something that didn't specify a body part, since it seems that people are concerned about that issue somewhat. If anyone has a better name, or strongly favors one or the other, please post.


2) That benders have a ridiculously high AC. Maybe in the first round of playtesting; but bender ACs (and, well, everyone's, really) are absolutely pitiful right now. Of the four benders in the level 15 PCs vs. Monsters arena match, two have an AC 20, and two have AC 19. Combine that with a base attack of +15 for warrior classes plus a minimum Strength or Dex of 16 plus a decently masterwork weapon (Let's say a simple weapon of Fame), and any basic level-appropriate opponent can hit a bender without even rolling, with a +21 to their first attack. Then there's there squishiness, which is already being addressed with the larger hit dice.

One thing that I've noticed in the arena matches is that people tend to forget that class defense bonus and armor bonuses don't stack. So ACs of 25 go down to 20 right before a match starts. My idea is to allow the Mastercrafting bonus to AC, not the original armor bonus, stack with class defense. This reflects standard D&D, in that the magical bonuses to armor are enhancement bonuses, and thus stack with class defense bonuses. Not a problem with the bending classes, of course, but it's relevant to the current discussion.

I would also like to point out that airbenders are beyond squishy at this point. Without even basic armor proficiency, they don't get the DR 2/- that fire and earthbenders get with masterwork chainmail, which doesn't incur an armor check penalty. Further, their AC is quite nearly as low as all the other benders, though their Wisdom to AC is helping. Dodge bonus doesn't do very much until higher levels. Not too many people want to playtest the airbender for some reason, so there's little to work with in terms of hard data.

I only said that because I remember from the first round everyone had ridiculous AC's and benders couldn't hit anything. I'm open to any suggestions on how to fix this, though I can't think of any at the moment. I'm totally fine with your suggestion about allowing MW bonuses to AC to stack with the class defense bonus. Do you think this would be enough, or is something else necessary.

I'm also starting to think that it might be a good idea to give airbenders proficiency with cloth armor so they have access to DR and other resistances. Thoughts?


Did we institute a rule saying it's easier to deflect your own element? A Firebender can deflect fire easily, just by making his arms repel fire.

We talked about it. I'm fine with that change, but I guess I forgot to mention it in my post. Nothing huge, though. Maybe a +2 or +4 bonus to the opposed attack roll?


EDIT: And what about my suggestion for bending study feats for martial characters? I remember them being something like:

Fire: Add Wis to damage when charging

Water: Once per day re-roll failed attack roll

Earth: When you don't move in a round you gain +4 versus Trip, Overrun, and Bull rush checks.

Air: I think it was Wis to AC.

The idea is interesting. Not really sure about the specifics. Some of them seem reasonable, but the air ability seems noticeably more powerful than the others. Maybe a small (+2 or so) dodge bonus to AC when wearing light armor? Something like that?

[Mephibosheth]

Re: Airbenders and Ranged Touch:

That's pretty much exactly how bludgeoning damage works, though (how Earth and Water Blast work). And a direct strike on someone's mass enough to move them with air, I would argue, would also subject them to quite a lot of heat unless their armor contains a double-layered vacuum seal. But those are not ranged touch.

Remember though, this is D&D not real life. Touch attacks disregard armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses. Essentially, all you have to do is touch the target, not penetrate their solid defenses. Again, targets have a lot of opportunities to resist this, so I think it's reasonable that it is easier to hit.

[Pirate_King]

That's pretty much exactly how bludgeoning damage works, though (how Earth and Water Blast work). And a strike strongly placed on someone's mass enough to move them with air, I would argue, would also subject them to quite a lot of heat when hit by a firebender unless their armor contains a double-layered vacuum seal. But those are not ranged touch.

Well, that'd be why fire damage ignores damage reduction, and armor class(Despite its name) is based on more than just armor, especially since we're using the defense bonus mechanic(also, defense bonus counts for touch AC). Besides, Airblast is not a damaging attack, it's a bull rush, meaning it just pushes you. It does damage if it pushes you into something, but that is subject to DR (I think)

Edit: pseudo-ninja'd

[felinoel]

Did I miss this pyrotechnics seed? Can someone link me to it or guess what page it is on?


Did we institute a rule saying it's easier to deflect your own element? A Firebender can deflect fire easily, just by making his arms repel fire.

EDIT: And what about my suggestion for bending study feats for martial characters? I remember them being something like:

Fire: Add Wis to damage when charging

Water: Once per day re-roll failed attack roll

Earth: When you don't move in a round you gain +4 versus Trip, Overrun, and Bull rush checks.

Air: I think it was Wis to AC.When its their own element I think they are just bending whats being thrown at them...

[Gmmaster42]

I know I’m not addressing ageing in the Avatar world at this point, but I haven’t had a chance to give it much thought.
Yeah, I was just thinking about it and it caught my attention. I just wanted to put the question out there. The Guru is pretty dexterous as well I just noticed. They could be just long lived humans with really high Dex scores, but somehow that doesn't sit well with me.

[AstralFire]

I think it's more of an issue with how D&D ages people than anything else. If they ditched the cumulatively stacking physical penalties then things would be modeled fine. After all, it's not like old people in our society who have kept physically fit all their lives, well into senior citizenship, are superfrail.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Perhaps not, but they're not nearly as über-pwntastic as they were in their youth. This happens a lot in martial arts. At any large tournament, there tends to be a bunch of middle-aged men that could apparently tear a brick wall to shreds with their bare hands, and everyone thinks "Wow, so age really doesn't matter!"

Then you see a video of those middle-aged men when they were younger, and you realize that, holy crap, they were freakin' inhuman. I think the system as we have it works out to be more or less true to the real world. If a character puts his level-up ability points into Dex or Con, he'll be able to cope with old age just fine.

[Paragon Badger]

The aging penalties should remain, but longer lifespans should be in order.

As if anyone actually rolls for age at character creation...... :smalltongue:

But how would explain Kyoshi being so friggin' tall? :smalleek:

[AstralFire]

Perhaps not, but they're not nearly as über-pwntastic as they were in their youth. This happens a lot in martial arts. At any large tournament, there tends to be a bunch of middle-aged men that could apparently tear a brick wall to shreds with their bare hands, and everyone thinks "Wow, so age really doesn't matter!"

Then you see a video of those middle-aged men when they were younger, and you realize that, holy crap, they were freakin' inhuman. I think the system as we have it works out to be more or less true to the real world. If a character puts his level-up ability points into Dex or Con, he'll be able to cope with old age just fine.

-3 to Str, Dex and Con would model that well. The difference between 15 and 18 Str is about 200 lbs worth of benchpress. The difference between 12 and 18 (what we currently have) is 340.

Assuming everyone is commoners, going from 18 Con to 15 Con is losing a third of your health. Going from 18 to 12 is about half.

A single point of Str is actually really huge as far as real life modeling goes, and -3 to all your physical stats is still nothing to sneeze at in D&D until epic.

The current aging modifiers are accounting for both potential health and habit, I would argue.

[felinoel]

Perhaps not, but they're not nearly as über-pwntastic as they were in their youth. This happens a lot in martial arts. At any large tournament, there tends to be a bunch of middle-aged men that could apparently tear a brick wall to shreds with their bare hands, and everyone thinks "Wow, so age really doesn't matter!"

Then you see a video of those middle-aged men when they were younger, and you realize that, holy crap, they were freakin' inhuman. I think the system as we have it works out to be more or less true to the real world. If a character puts his level-up ability points into Dex or Con, he'll be able to cope with old age just fine.
Yes, like when Sokka and Piandao were fighting Piandao mentioned how he was less nimble or something due to his old age

[Gmmaster42]

Yes, like when Sokka and Piandao were fighting Piandao mentioned how he was less nimble or something due to his old age
Yeah, but he's still pretty nimble. Especially skating along the ice in the taking back of Ba Sing Se and taking out practically all the soldiers, well disarming them.

[felinoel]

Yeah, but he's still pretty nimble. Especially skating along the ice in the taking back of Ba Sing Se and taking out practically all the soldiers, well disarming them.

He probably worked to get back the that was dex possibly lost from aging

[Paragon Badger]

Speaking of which, what advanced class does Piandao and Sokka work with?

I would imagine Sokka would add his intelligence or wisdom bonus to attack or defense, considering that his greatest strength (said Piandao) lay within his ingenuity in combat.

Edit: Can we expand the Firebender's incandecence? Zuko burns a hole through the ice during the seige on the North Pole, but I just thought that A firebender and waterbend could theoretically cooperate; the firebender superheating the water to boiling degree, and the water bender manipulating it. The SRD has damage for being hit by/immersed in boiling water, I believe.

[felinoel]

Speaking of which, what advanced class does Piandao and Sokka work with?

I would imagine Sokka would add his intelligence or wisdom bonus to attack or defense, considering that his greatest strength (said Piandao) lay within his ingenuity in combat.

Well Sokka has two official builds, but I think Piandao didn't mean intelligence during a giant war zone with tons of enemies surrounding you with you in the middle, I think he meant tactical intelligence and creativity, for when you are away from that massive area of baddies and you see a huge bouldar above them you could drop on them, or like in 300, fight where the only entrance is a narrow pathway so the enemies can only get to you in very small numbers which makes them easier to defeat

Sokka's two build's are here
http://avatar.d20.googlepages.com/sokka

Piandao seems to be a pure fighter, see here
http://avatar.d20.googlepages.com/piandao

[Belphegor153]

( posts in the wrong avatar thread... probably... )

Well im entirely new here..

Ive been trying to run the older Avatar d20 that Wizo's spawned.. My players want something more up to date and this system is the closest.. so im going to read through and find Some things to work on.. :/

[String]

HELLO FROM IRELAND.

Anyway, Seraph, I read through the pcs vs monsters (did well) and Dai Li (wow). Out of curiousity, did you include the bonus to Earthbending that dai li affliliation scores wouldve given them? If not, then they obviously dont need them, and it could be superfluous. I may have to edit that in the main hub thread.

Also, HOLY HELL. those three Dai Li were amazing. That tremorsense was sure an issue.I wonder if a fighter (I wonder who) would fair as badly?

Also: I dont think we have rules on this but..Bending underwater? I figure its possible, (seem to remember zuko doing it and creating steaming bubbles but I could be mistaken.) but perhaps with an approprate penalty to bending checks? perhaps a -2, which is on par with the attack roll penalty? If we go that way, I would suggest either a seed for waterbenders and airbenders (perhaps allowing them to share the benefit with others) that would allow for a freedom of movement type effect and eleminates the penalty for a bit, or a feat (which would allow all 4 classes access, but has less fluff-wise sense, seeing as airbenders are all about freedom and movement, and waterbenders are all about water) that eliminates the penalty.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Actually, I think that the reason the Dai Le owned with such impunity is that the firebenders wouldn't hurry up and threaten them, the waterbender wouldn't defend anyone, and the earthbender managed to get himself to 9 HP before even taking an action against the Dai Li.

What I learned through this match is that if a bender is not used creatively, he is fodder, and little more. Also, Fire Sweep does quite well as a template. It's a great way to blow your lowest BAB attack. I think it's time that we officially implemented all the suggestions that Meph posted earlier.

[felinoel]

Also, HOLY HELL. those three Dai Li were amazing. That tremorsense was sure an issue.I wonder if a fighter (I wonder who) would fair as badly?In the game I am running it is canon up to the last couple of episodes with mild changes to that (I had Ozai win so my players can defeat him theirselves), and I made it so things like tremorsense, bloodbending, metalbending, and others like them were only available if you had a good excuse to know of its existance since they were virtually unheard of

[Copacetic]

Is it just me, or do the waterbenders get the better end of the stick when it comes to the Child Of.... Abilites. They get the same bonus to waterbending every month that the firebenders get every hundred years.

[Gmmaster42]

I think that's a typo. The comet should provide a much bigger bonus like +20. It made the firebenders uberpowerful while the full moon was a nice add on for waterbenders in the show.

[Paragon Badger]

I think that's a typo. The comet should provide a much bigger bonus like +20. It made the firebenders uberpowerful while the full moon was a nice add on for waterbenders in the show.

I'd have to agree. From the last episodes Ozai has a huge advantage over Aang until he goes all State-y and the Azula vs. Zuko just about cover the entire arena with each blast.

And really, Sozin's Comet should be a plot event where the +20 bonus is to pump up the challenge for an important enemy. It isn't something that should occur every other campaign. :smallwink:

[felinoel]

I'd have to agree. From the last episodes Ozai has a huge advantage over Aang until he goes all State-y and the Azula vs. Zuko just about cover the entire arena with each blast.

And really, Sozin's Comet should be a plot event where the +20 bonus is to pump up the challenge for an important enemy. It isn't something that should occur every other campaign. :smallwink:

Plus Ozai said it gives you the power of a hundred firebenders or something like that

[Caewil]

A hundred suns.

[felinoel]

A hundred suns.

Ah yes, he said the comet gave the power of a hundred suns

[Zak Crimsonleaf]

I have torn this thread free of the embrace of the grave in order to ask a question and perhaps return it to a semblence of life. Did sandbending ever get satisfactorily resolved? I recall this being proposed:


I propose the following: We alter the Earthbender class description to allow the use of sand and similar particulate matter, but at a -5 penalty. Then we create a separate list of sandbender forms that serve as “substitution forms.” Most of them would be re-worked waterbender or earthbender forms with a few unique sandbending forms worked in. In order to access this list of “substitution forms,” a character would have to take the Sandbender feat, which would probably look something like this:

Sandbender [General]
Benefit: You no longer take a -5 penalty to Earthbending checks when attempting to bend sand, dust, or loose soil. Additionally, if you take levels in the Earthbender class, you may select your bending forms from the list of Sandbender forms.
Normal: Earthbenders take a -5 penalty to Earthbending checks when attempting to bend sand, dust, or loose soil

But I don't recall if that was ever accepted. But I think it should be, so if it wasn't, I want to put it into action and get started on sandbender forms. I'm not of a mind to leave this alone until we can agree on something.

Edit: Oh, and that Forms Compendium is looking a little abandoned too, as long as we're looking into these things.

[Pirate_King]

That seems like the most viable option, since Toph does manage some sandbending and a prestige class doesn't seem to make much sense because it implies a sandbender is necessarily already good at normal earthbending. An Earthbender taking a feat then mostly picking up sandbending seems a lot cleaner to me.

[felinoel]

That seems like the most viable option, since Toph does manage some sandbending and a prestige class doesn't seem to make much sense because it implies a sandbender is necessarily already good at normal earthbending. An Earthbender taking a feat then mostly picking up sandbending seems a lot cleaner to me.

Well then that seems to weaken natural sandbenders in my opinion, forcing them to waste a feat to do what they were raised to do...

[Pirate_King]

Well then that seems to weaken natural sandbenders in my opinion, forcing them to waste a feat to do what they were raised to do...

But what does a feat represent? Special training and/or natural natural aptitude, or lately, heritage. And speaking in the metagame, it's worth a feat to be more versatile.

[felinoel]

But what does a feat represent? Special training and/or natural natural aptitude, or lately, heritage. And speaking in the metagame, it's worth a feat to be more versatile.But still natural sandbenders lose a feat in order to be a natural sandbender, can natural sendbenders easily bend regular earth?

[Mephibosheth]

Wow, back from the depths!

I've been working on a sandbender "class" that's a refinement of the idea Zak referenced, but kinda sidelined it when the project died down. Essentially, it takes the form of a few substitution levels and a list of forms that replace the standard earthbender forms. A sandbender would take levels in earthbender, taking the sandbender substitution levels where necessary and learning sandbending feats instead of earthbending feats. It may eventually turn into a whole new class, but I haven't progressed that far.

[felinoel]

Wow, back from the depths!

I've been working on a sandbender "class" that's a refinement of the idea Zak referenced, but kinda sidelined it when the project died down. Essentially, it takes the form of a few substitution levels and a list of forms that replace the standard earthbender forms. A sandbender would take levels in earthbender, taking the sandbender substitution levels where necessary and learning sandbending feats instead of earthbending feats. It may eventually turn into a whole new class, but I haven't progressed that far.

Substitution levels of course! My fav substitution levels would definitely have to be for the halfling barbarion, but thats beside the point, good idea, I would like to see how this turns out

[Zak Crimsonleaf]

Yes, that was the other thing that was mentioned. It would be most appropriate to include them at Levels 1, 4, 6, 7, 8, 12, and 19, I think. That would replace the Climb speed and Head-On Defense with something more suited to a desert environment. 1st level might be something to consider, unless you consider Earth Blast and Move A Rock to work just as well with sand when you take the feat as with normal earth. I don't know if it would be a good idea to make it a seperate class when it's still earthbending, just of a different variety.

[Rogue 7]

So, I'm DMing an Avatar game, and I've got a player who wants to play a Kiyoshi Warrior. Any recommendations?

[AstralFire]

So, I'm DMing an Avatar game, and I've got a player who wants to play a Kiyoshi Warrior. Any recommendations?

Rogue with lots of those feats that let you convert Sneak Attack into disabling stuff.

Their Martial Artist + those Chi Immobility feats (though I don't believe theirs can wear armor, while the KW can.)

Alternatively, Warblade.

[String]

Passive Way Monk.

[felinoel]

Passive Way Monk.Definitely Passive Way Monk, thats why my build of Sokka has that level in Passive Way Monk, I am mildly sure the passive way was created for them

[AstralFire]

I'm not terribly familiar with the non-bender rules, but unless the monks can wear armor now, that doesn't quite work. I don't think the Kyoshi Warriors' armor was all decorative.

[Zak Crimsonleaf]

Hm. Perhaps what you should do is make the Kyoshi warriors' armor a special type that is able to be worn by martial artists of their style. Oh, and I'm still interested in getting something done with sandbending. I'm working on a list of possible forms, but it's difficult. And this may be a foolish question, but was lavabending ever resolved? I figure it's half earth and half fire, so either one should be able to bend it, but at a penalty.

[Darkkwalker]

If I recall correctly, lavabending was never resolved, however, I think someone did say that Nick said that it was fire-bending.

[Pirate_King]

Lavabending, read as manipulating lava it as a waterbender manipulates water, is never done in the show. Avatar Roku suppressed explosions and did other awesome avatar things, other benders seem to have caused explosions of pyroclastic magnitude, and even melted rock in such a way that indirectly affected lava flow, but as of the end of the show, LAVABENDING HAS NEVER BEEN DONE.

[Zak Crimsonleaf]

You're sure? I mean, at the Fire Temple, Roku lifts his hand and lava erupts into fountains. Seemed like he was doing it to me. I just want to make sure you're right, because if you are, that solves lavabending rather nicely. Anyway, here's a few sandbender seeds. The first four are from earlier in the sandbending discussion, and the last three are obviously reworked waterbending seeds. If anybody can think of more (realistic ones, please, and any corrections to these ones you can see would be good too. No sand coffin seeds. A form might be possible, but no seed like that.) Here they are.

Sand Shield
Base DC: 15
As a move action, this technique creates several thin bands of sand that swirl and twist around the Earthbender, helping to deflect incoming attacks. The sand does not make it harder to see the Earthbender, but it grants her a +4 deflection bonus to her AC. Maintaining the Sand Shield for more than two rounds gives a -4 penalty to all Earthbending checks until the Earthbender ends the seed, increasing by -1 every two turns. If this penalty actually causes an Earthbender to fail a Earthbending check, she may choose to end the seed and remove the penalty at that time. An Earthbender can concentrate on maintaining this seed as a Swift action. Their must be at least a handful of sand within the Earthbender's bending range for this technique to be accomplished.

Dust Devil
Base DC: 20
By manipulating the sand the Earthbender creates a whirlwind made entirely of sand and loose dirt. The Dust Devil is 5 feet in radius and 5 feet in height. 5 feet may be added to the height or width by adding +4 to the DC. Anytime a Dust Devil enters a creatures square, that creature takes 2d6 damage, Reflex save half.The movement of the swirl sand is equal to the Earthbender's base movement with good maneuverability and may move it as a swift action. The Swirl Sand’s base must always be touching the ground. The Sandbender must concentrate on a Dust Devil to keep it active. The Sandbender must make a Concentration check (DC 10+damage taken) whenever he takes damage from an attack. If the Sandbender is unable to maintain Concentration for any reason the Dust Devil collapses into normal sand. Creatures within the Swirl Sand have concealment, while those on the other side have total concealment.The Dust Devil is also used to power the Sand Skids sailed by Sandbenders.

Wall of Sand
Base DC: 15

The Sandbender causes a small wall of churning sand to shoot out of any large amount of sand within her bending range as a standard action. The wall is 1 inch thick, plus one more inch per every 2 points by which the Earthbending check exceeds the DC. The wall’s area is one five-foot square, but the Earthbender can add another such square by increasing the Earthbending DC by +4. Or, you may double the walls area by halving its thickness. The wall may be moved with another Earthbending check at the base DC. The Earthbender pushes the wall back 20 ft in a straight line, plus another 5 ft for every 4 points by which the Earthbending check exceeds the DC. The Sandbender must maintain Concentration to keep the churning wall of sand active. The Sandbender must make a Concentration check (DC 10+damage taken) whenever he takes damage from an attack. If the Sandbender is unable to maintain Concentration for any reason the Wall of Sand collapses into normal sand.The wall cannot be made so that it occupies the same space as a creature. No form of attack can be made to harm a Wall of Sand directly, but each 5ft section has 2 hit points per inch of thickness for determining whether an attack passes through it. It essentially absorbs damage, so attacks must deal more damage than the wall has hit points to have any effect on a target on the other side of the wall.
Breaches in the wall close immediately after the attack that passes through. The sand blocks line of effect, and creatures on opposite sides have total concealment from one another. Moving through the wall requires a strength check (DC 10+ creators Earthbender levels). Those who fail must stop in the space from which they attempted to enter the wall. Any creature that attempts to pass through a Wall of Sand must also make a Reflex save (DC 15) or be blinded for 1d4+1 rounds. A creature passing through the roiling wall does not leave a usable breach for others. All flames are extinguished if carried through the wall.

Control Sand
Base DC: 10
Area: Dust or sand in a volume of 10
ft./level wide by 10 ft./level long
by 2 ft./level deep
Duration: Concentration
Saving Throw: None; see text

Depending on the version you choose, control sand raises or lowers fine particles of material, such as dust or sand. For either version, the Sandbender can reduce one horizontal dimension by half and double

the other horizontal dimension.
Lower Sand: This effect causes sand to reduce its depth by as much as 2 feet per caster level, to a minimum depth of 1 inch. The dust and sand is lowered within a square-shaped depression whose sides are up to 10 feet long per caster level. In extremely large and deep sand piles, such as a sand dune, the spell creates a pit that sweeps creatures downward (without dealing damage), putting them at risk and rendering them unable to leave by normal movement for the duration of the spell.
Raise Sand: This effect causes dust and sand to rise in height, just as the lower sand version causes it to lower. Creatures and objects on top of the dust or sand are raised along with the top level of sand.

Flaywind Blast
Base DC: 25?
The Earth Bender can cause a fistful of sand to spray with enough force to strip flesh from bone and scour surfaces in a 20ft cone shaped burst. Any one within the area takes 1d8 points of damage per 2 Earthbender levels (Maximum 10d8) with a Reflex save for Half damage (DC 16+ Wisdom Modifier). Do not divide damage from Flaywind Blast by four when applying it to objects.

Wave of Sand (Base DC: 15)

Breaker: The wave created by this seed travels in a straight line from within the earthbender’s bending range as a standard action, and can move 10 ft per level of the earthbender. The wave initiates a bull rush against any creatures in its path, counting as a Large creature (with a 10-foot face) with a Strength score equal to the bender’s Wisdom score+2 for the purposes of resolving bull rush attempts. The earthbender may increase the wave’s size to Huge (Giving an additional +4 size bonus and a 15-foot face) by adding +10 to the DC. A earthbender may try to turn the wave 45 degrees two times during its motion, but because of the great mass of sand used; each requires another Earthbending check at the same DC as the one to make the wave turn. Any creature pushed back more than 10 feet by the wave is also knocked prone. The earthbender may move with the wave at its crest, ending her movement wherever the wave moves.

Transport: Rather than make a destructive force against her opponent, an earthbender may make a smaller wave to carry her quickly from one place to another as a standard action. This wave moves at 10 ft per earthbender level and can make four 45 degree turns during its motion without requiring additional Earthbending checks.

Earthen Whirlwind Base DC 10:

As a move action you lift sand in a swirling, spiraling pattern with yourself at the top. This allows you to move straight up or down at a rate of up to 20 ft per round. An Earthen Whirlwind lasts as long as you concentrate (a swift action, up to a maximum number of rounds equal to your class level), and you can move up or down as you desire. Your maximum speed increase by 5 ft for every 5 by which your Earthbending check exceeds the base DC

[phoenixcire]

You're sure? I mean, at the Fire Temple, Roku lifts his hand and lava erupts into fountains.

That can be explained away as Roku creating a violent change in temperature that caused more pressure to build up, creating bigger spurts than would be normal.

[Pirate_King]

That can be explained away as Roku creating a violent change in temperature that caused more pressure to build up, creating bigger spurts than would be normal.

exactly. As I stated before, we've seen them cause volcanic explosions and eruptions, as well as suppress them, but actual direct manipulation of Lava isn't something that's been done by anyone.

EDIT: except, of course, on that chibi-short, but that's hardly canon.

[Rogue 7]

Heya. I'm running an Avatar D20 game and we had our first real session tonight that wasn't just character building, so I'll make a few comments.

1. My party is very silly and very violent. Our firebender has been given the designation of "omnicidal". Firebender+Alcohol= hilarity and flaming shots. We've got a rogue, a firebender (she's got a glaive and likes to light it on fire), an earthbender, and an airbender (crazy maxed-out bending check on him.)

2. I ran them up against 5 level 2 warriors and a level 4 rogue. An amusing battle, which ended fairly well for the party. The rogue was complaining he couldn't do much, but that was in large part because of the fact that he acted like a fighter, and just charged in the door. Two guys got sent smashing through the ceiling thanks to the earthbender, and two guys got smashed off the roof (earthbender and airbender each. The airbender nailed the leader.)

Comments: The column seed indoors is ridiculously powerful. I ruled that they couldn't do it from the ceiling, but even then, decently high reflex save to avoid an attack that put them out of the battle for a turn or 2 (and I ruled that it only did 2d6 smashing through the ceiling and didn't pin them down like in the rules) for a DC 10...excessive. I bumped it up to 15.

I ruled that if you're going to empower a technique for more damage or the like, as the airbender was doing with his "air thrust" technique, you couldn't take 10- seems a fair tradeoff for an otherwise pretty doggone powerful ability. The airbender only failed on a 4 or lower, so he went for it, but it seemed a bit more balanced to me.

[Ekeralos]

Why is it possible for a waterbender to deal 1d6 additional damage with ice shards (only a DC 10 seed) by increasing the DC by 4, but a firebender has to use a template (DC +20) that increases the damage by 1d6 for every +10 at which they increase the DC?

Edit: Hm, I seem to be using the Avatar d20 site variant. The standard Intensity is as powerful as the Ice Shards seed. Nevermind then.

[Pirate_King]

well, iceshards is it's own seed that has damage increases built into it, and intensity can be applied to any seed to increase damage, including the basic fireblast. Although, I remember it having a lower DC... did it get upped, or have I not been here in a while.

EDIT: just checked the old PDF, intensity used to be a base 10. Why is it base 20 now? raising it to 20 just to add a single d6 seems pretty high. the additional d6 per x by which the bender beats the DC could have been higher than 4, but 10 as a base DC seems fair, considering the waterbender's ease in adding damage.

[Mephibosheth]

I think the main balancing factor is that Ice Shards is a standard action, area-of-effect seed whereas, as a template seed, Intensity can be applied to every Fire Blast in a full attack. So, while Ice Shards could potentially deal more damage as a single attack, a firebender using Intensity with his Fire Blasts would ultimately be able to do more damage. Also remember that Ice Shards is capped whereas Intensity is not. We wanted to give firebenders a way to bump the damage of their Fire Blasts without things getting out of hand. Finally, it should be noted that, in this setting, almost everyone has good Reflex saves or methods of compensating therefore, so area-of-effect abilities are in general less powerful than normal.

I hope that helps somewhat. If people think this is a real problem, I'd be willing to revisit the issue.

Mephibosheth

[Pirate_King]

that makes sense. So is intensity no longer capped at the firebender's blast die?

[Mephibosheth]

that makes sense. So is intensity no longer capped at the firebender's blast die?

Nope, though any more than one or two extra d6's will probably end up being pretty difficult to achieve (though definitely possible) in most circumstances.

[Ekeralos]

Quick question. Is it possible to use a masterwork item to increase Bending checks? I could see that getting out of hand... but I was unable to find a specific place where it was forbidden.

[Pirate_King]

non-canon, I don't think so, but there aren't any items that grant bonuses within the setting...except warfans and airbending staffs. hm. if an airbender staff is a higher masterwork quality, does it increase the bonus to the airbending check, or is it still just +1?

[Achilles]

I was wondering if anyone made a Swamp Bender class. If it was talked about, sorry, but I'm not going through over 35 pages to find that. If not, someone should! I won't, I'm lazy....

[Froogleyboy]

I was wondering if anyone made a Swamp Bender class. If it was talked about, sorry, but I'm not going through over 35 pages to find that. If not, someone should! I won't, I'm lazy....

Just be a water bender who hails from a swamp

[felinoel]

I was wondering if anyone made a Swamp Bender class. If it was talked about, sorry, but I'm not going through over 35 pages to find that. If not, someone should! I won't, I'm lazy....

I believe the was a variant class made of the water bender, same for the sand benders and earth bending

[Wishfire]

I don't know what if this was resolved, I just found this site when I was planning on creating my own Avatar tabletop :smallsmile:, but can earthbenders use their climb speed to move laterally? At level 20, an earthbender climbs at 60 ft per move action. Since it is a climbing speed, they can use the run option. that is 240 feet in a round. If he uses Earthstride, he moves at 30 feet (base) + 20 feet (for achieving a result of 40) x 5 (for run) = 250 feet in a round. That is not much of a difference for a form that requires a swift action to maintain. Additionally, if the earthbender isn't maxed out for bending, they would not be able to consistently make 40, meaning the speed is reduced by 10 feet, and speed by running is now only 200 feet. Why would they want to use Earthstride's running snail ability? I think you can climb horizontally, because you do a climb check of surfaces at more than a 45 degree angle, and you could also just put your hands on the ground.

And if you can earthstride with climb speed, that comes out to a possible 400 feet in a round. This just seems a little fast to me. An airbender can fly at 280 ft/rnd while using the run option, run at the same speed by using Run Like the Wind, or combine them for 440 ft/rnd. This is not much difference between the bender known for speed and its polar opposite.

My question is whether earthbenders can use their climb speed on the ground and is it too fast? Has this already been resolved?

[Vaynor]

The Red Towel: Thread necromancy.