Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

[Tengu]

By the way, isn't it a bit ironic that the guide both lists Divine Power under great spells and with one breath says that monks don't need full BAB?

A point someone might have made before. I haven't read the whole thread thoroughly.

[Arbitrarity]

And, despite rumors to the contrary, phantom steed can take some blows. And when you have to use a full-round action to do 7 damage (50% of the time), it worries less.

Also, monks are proficient with crossbows.
3-4 hits to down the steed at level 14. No. That's 6 rounds of firing. There is no way you can pull that off. However, it's also round your party can use to dispatch the thing efficiently, if applicable.

Assuming it doesn't, y'know, USE that 240 ft speed. I mean, 1 round of RUN will get it out of your range, and the range of any spells with ranges less than or equal to Long, immediately, no way for you to chase and fire.

[Solo]

And with that, at long last, I conclude for today.


I've heard that one before.

Edit: Ouch, Giacomo... looks like your idea of plinking is taking a beating.



Levels 9-10 Stealth/scout tactics with occasional fighting

Problem is, your AB is going to be subpar when compared with melee characters below and above level 10 as well. The problem of not having enough weight in the field of AB is an albatross that hangs around your neck for your entire career. You mitigate it at higher levels, with enough items maybe, but at mid to lower levels? Ouch.

[SamTheCleric]

Also, monks are proficient with crossbows.


Wow, I have -never- noticed that. No monk every carries one... I wonder why not.

Also, if we want to be nitpicky... Your level 10 build didnt buy any crossbow bolts.

Maybe you can shoot some wands out of it?

And now an honest question... Why are you saying that your wand budget is cumulative with previous levels? Wealth By Level does not work that way. You use WBL to create a PC of that level using THAT amount of gold. You don't "get" that much money every level as you make a 20th level build. Your "total" wealth is that much... no cumulativeness to it.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Actually the build does not "rely" on that. It is in addition to filling the party role of a monk as outlined by the PHB.

And with that, at long last, I conclude for today.

- Giacomo


Giacomo. Your essay is 151 cm long (I checked).

52 cm of those are not comparing Monks, in some form, to casters.

If you want, we can run the end of all the above campaigns against your Monk.

He'll die.

ALSO:I'm taking bets for how long it will be before Gia returns. Ten minutes? Half an hour? Several weeks?

[Solo]

Monk: Hey guys! Guess what? I can be awesome if I plan my character build out in great detail, buy lots of expensive magical items and consumables, get my caster buddies to help out with spells, and powergame my way to heck by exploiting broken game features like Leadership and Polymorph.

Wizard: Really? I just prepare spells.

[Arbitrarity]

Monk: Hey guys! Guess what? I can be awesome if I plan my character build out in great detail, buy lots of expensive magical items and consumables, get my caster buddies to help out with spells, and powergame my way to heck by exploiting broken game features like Leadership and Polymorph.

Wizard: Really? I just prepare spells.

In all fairness, he's not using polymorph and leadership, this time. UMD is a pretty powerful skill investment, admittedly.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Giacomo; Thank you for taking the time and effort into making a guide for the Monk. You insight is appreciated for those of us in a hardcore campaign that does not have cheezy flying spellslingers at 5th level, spellcasting bears, and Shock Troop'ing barbarians at 6th level. Built correctly, the Monk is one of the better support characters there is. :smile:

[Solo]

a hardcore campaign that does not have cheezy flying spellslingers at 5th level
Your wizard never took Flight or Phantom Steed?

[Arbitrarity]

There are druids who aren't spellslinging bears? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html)

Now, leap attack, pouncing, shock trooper Spirit Lion Totem barbarian/frenzied berserkers, Ok.

Also, how is it NOT a hardcore game with cheese if the monk is UMD'ing, buffing, and 3-way optimizing punching his way to victory?
You think clerics are cheesy for self-buffing with divine power? Wait...

[Nebo_]

Pretty much everything Giacomo has said to date

D&D DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

[Solo]

Built correctly, the Monk is one of the better support characters there is. :smile:
What's he going to do, support the enemy to death?

"Here, let me catch your fall.... not! Suck it, gramps!"

[Kurald Galain]

D&D DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

Precisely.

Didn't SG eventually admit in one of the earlier threads that he doesn't play this kind of character either? How, then, is this different from the proverbial virgin giving advise on the kama sutra?

[Tengu]

What's he going to do, support the enemy to death?

"Here, let me catch your fall.... not! Suck it, gramps!"

Throw potions at your friends, thus using his action and not theirs? Works in Final Fantasy, and since we know DND is becoming more like FF, than should work for DND too!

[Kurald Galain]

This is a very low magic campaign. no spellcasting bears (hell there are no druids) and very low level magic.

Two words: oberoni fallacy.

[Ne0]

What's he going to do, support the enemy to death?

"Here, let me catch your fall.... not! Suck it, gramps!"

Darn, he's right! Whatever the hell was WotC thinking when they put a cure spell in the game?!
Seriously Solo, get over yourself. We see you disagree with Giacomo. That doesn't mean you have to make annoying remarks that don't even add anything to the discussion whenever people agree with him.

Everyone here obviously likes to discuss the Monk class. So why are we trying to get this thread locked?

[Arbitrarity]

Darn, he's right! Whatever the hell was WotC thinking when they put a cure spell in the game?!
Seriously Solo, get over yourself. We see you disagree with Giacomo. That doesn't mean you have to make annoying remarks that don't even add anything to the discussion whenever people agree with him.

Everyone here obviously likes to discuss the Monk class. So why are we trying to get this thread locked?

First: *blinks* Monk... cure... *non sequitur*
Second: I would strongly disagree with that third paragraph. We could do a poll, but I bet a majority of people on this thread are tired of rehashing the same arguments over, and over, and over again (Though I do give props to Giamoco for actually statting something out, over a 20 level progression. That takes work)

[Nebo_]

Darn, he's right! Whatever the hell was WotC thinking when they put a cure spell in the game?!
Seriously Solo, get over yourself. We see you disagree with Giacomo. That doesn't mean you have to make annoying remarks that don't even add anything to the discussion whenever people agree with him.

That was just a comment on the futility of playing a support character that doesn't support very well. If you're going to do that, either play something that doesn't need to be supported to function in a game, or play something that actually does the job well. What's the problem with expressing that in a humourous way?

[Solo]

Darn, he's right! Whatever the hell was WotC thinking when they put a cure spell in the game?!
Seriously Solo, get over yourself. We see you disagree with Giacomo. That doesn't mean you have to make annoying remarks that don't even add anything to the discussion whenever people agree with him.

Actually, it does.

If you haven't noticed, it's what I do.

Furthermore, if you haven't noticed, that was a joke, and not meant to be taken seriously. That you do so only means that you do not get to share in the humor and fun.



Everyone here obviously likes to discuss the Monk class. So why are we trying to get this thread locked?

I have remained civil and entertaining. Everyone else has been polite, or at least not rude enough to warrant modding.

[Ne0]

I would strongly disagree with that third paragraph. We could do a poll, but I bet a majority of people on this thread are tired of rehashing the same arguments over, and over, and over again (Though I do give props to Giamoco for actually statting something out, over a 20 level progression. That takes work)

So then why the hell have we reached 9 pages in a day? If people


That was just a comment on the futility of playing a support character that doesn't support very well. If you're going to do that, either play something that doesn't need to be supported to function in a game, or play something that actually does the job well. What's the problem with expressing that in a humourous way?

1. You deducted that all one sentence?
2. The problem? That it doesn't really add anything at all, because essentially, Solo's saying "No, he's not a good supportive character". And the fact that he's been doing that for the last 9 pages, as well as changing his avatar specifically to mock Giacomo. There are boundaries. I can think of a whole lot of things to put what I say in a humourous way. Except that, eventually, that kind of attitude will lead to flaming and a lock.
It's a special something that I call 'Mutual Respect'.

[Solo]

"The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses.

They laughed at the Wright brothers. They laughed at Columbus. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."
-teh interweb

[Solo]

You deducted that all one sentence?
Some people know me better than you do.


So then why the hell have we reached 9 pages in a day? If people
Er, yes?


And the fact that he's been doing that for the last 9 pages, as well as changing his avatar specifically to mock Giacomo. There are boundaries. I can think of a whole lot of things to put what I say in a humourous way. Except that, eventually, that kind of attitude will lead to flaming and a lock.

If you're referring to the Epic Fail Black Belt turning out to be Giacomo, please remember that before that, my avatar was Epic Fail Black Mage, and we all know who the Black Mage represents.

Seriously, if you really think I did it just to mock Giacomo, you must also logically conclude that I was mocking myself earlier.

The entire joke consisted of my Black Mage avatar being replaced by a mystery Monk, and that Monk turning out to be Sir Giacomo.

Heck, Giacomo told me he found it amusing. So why are you getting all worked up over it?

[Arbitrarity]

So then why the hell have we reached 9 pages in a day?


Mkay, imaginary poll time. Who here enjoys and appreciates discussing monks?

I say nay.

[Solo]

Behold! The Epic Black Mage has returned to his rightful thrown, atop a mountain of dead enemies and the broken bodies of all those who would oppose his stabbity reign of terror!

[Spiryt]

Mkay, imaginary poll time. Who here enjoys and appreciates discussing monks?

I say nay.

I like monkish beer (http://pl.beeropedia.org/media/wiki/117.1.jpg). Does that count ?

[Illiterate Scribe]

In fact, Ne0, I don't believe that we had any moderation-worthy action, or even much disagreement except in the form of the traditional, playful (sorta), rivalry with Giacomo in this thread, until you showed up and started telling people to 'get over themselves'.

Anyway, now that Gia has finished his guide, perhaps he will have a little more time. I suggest that we seriously set up the PbP that we've been agitating for.

Solo can demonstrate that Ozymandias works as he says (again).

We can wonder at the awesome epic power of the Joker monk.

And I can seek to redeem the Incarnate in everyone's eyes.

Thoughts?

[Solo]

I'm amazed we made it this far without anything disagreeable, to be honest.

[Arbitrarity]

I'm amazed we made it this far without anything disagreeable, to be honest.

It depends on how well you understand that this is in humor, to be honest. I can see some of it being construed as uncivil.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Wrong. Illegal targets fizzle spells. Reread section on "holding a charge". It doesn't mention an illegal target. Any touch will trigger it. Yeah.

Meaning actually that since a wizard at the low level he gets his touch spells will trigger them immediately because he touches the ground. Hmmm. You probably are alone in your interpretation here.
"Touch" actually means "touch attack".


The wizard will only discharge the spell if he walks on the ground with his hands, since they would be the appendage holding the charge.

If you touch anything with the appendage holding the charge the spell will discharge without requiring you to make a touch attack, which should be clear from the description:


Holding the Charge: ... If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges.

Other than that (and the assumptions made during your shopping spree, which are subject to debate) I must commend you for generally abiding by the RAW and learning from previous debates.
(This is certainly not meant in any condescending way, so please do not read it like that. It is merely refreshing to have someone with a minority view, who is also capable of adjusting, so these monk threads at least evolve just a little over time.)

[Morty]

The conclusion of this thread is, on a forum where religious and political discussions are forbidden, people have found a substitute.
Also, uncle Tzeentch approves of this thread.

[Sir Giacomo]

*Jumps in from work*

Well, Illiterate Scribe and Solo, what about the following: Solo does a 28-pt-buy Ozymandias of a level he chooses, complete with spells and then I'll comment on that how the Joker would try to beat him. And how both would contribute in a party (with Ozymandias replacing the wizard and the Joker replacing the Rogue).
The problem with PvP that I encountered so far is:
- the setting can tend to favour one or the other class, so it is difficult to conclude anything from it, in particular for seeing whether it is strong or not
- the duel can take ages. My monk duel vs Reel on Love's druid took weeks until Jack Mann (the DM) had to give up due to real life worlkload.
The CR 20 challenge of Talic, after months of posts, made it only into the first viable encounter without proving anything about class variablity (my personal opinion is still how anyone could ever expect the INT 6 barbarian to have any chance apart from some occasional full attacks to show it's better than the monk, but that's just my 5 cent on the overall highly entertaining play thread).

No, post a sorcerer, Solo, and then we can discuss.

Zanatos777 made already a good start with a level 10 grey elf wizard.here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4335634&postcount=141).
Sorry to Zanatos777, that I so far did not answer to that.
It is a good build - but it would be highly vulnerable to the Joker monk.
The Joker at that level has an Initiative mod of +7 vs the +2 of that wizard.
That wizard (actually depending on its familiar, but likely wlll not help much here) has great difficulty to even see the monk charging him from up to 90ft away (flight partial charge, or 60ft away without flight. Note that that monk can reach a wizard flying in a dungeon up to 30ft high with jump). Once in a grapple, the fight is over.
The monk would thus have suprise round (partial charge, grapple). Then a full round attack of 3 grapple checks which would be used to pin. That would be the end.

Now, what that wizard CAN do is stay outside groundling's reach by flying quite high and hope that joker monk has no potion of flying left over (in the no-partial-charge-wand world). However, that way he would never even spot the hiding monk down on the ground - so a draw...until the wizard needs to rest...

- Giacomo

*Jumps back to work*

[Solo]

The conclusion of this thread is, on a forum where religious and political discussions are forbidden, people have found a substitute.
Also, uncle Tzeentch approves of this thread.

Please don't tell me the Monk is Crystal Dragon Jesus (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrystalDragonJesus)

[Solo]

No, post a sorcerer, Solo, and then we can discuss.
Just when I coaxed my Chinese internet connection to allow me access to a porn site...

Edit: Help! TTW killed me!

[Morty]

Please don't tell me the Monk is Crystal Dragon Jesus (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrystalDragonJesus)

No, not really. Instead, he's something everyone is tired of arguing about, yet they keep discussing it. So, just like religion and politics, as those are 100% forbidden here.

[Sir Giacomo]

The wizard will only discharge the spell if he walks on the ground with his hands, since they would be the appendage holding the charge.

If you touch anything with the appendage holding the charge the spell will discharge without requiring you to make a touch attack, which should be clear from the description:



Other than that (and the assumptions made during your shopping spree, which are subject to debate) I must commend you for generally abiding by the RAW and learning from previous debates.
(This is certainly not meant in any condescending way, so please do not read it like that. It is merely refreshing to have someone with a minority view, who is also capable of adjusting, so these monk threads at least evolve just a little over time.)

Hi, Lord Silvanos.

Thanks for also jumping in. So, by that ruling the monk simply has to handle the doors etc. with his feet...that's what I'd call kick-in-door kind of play!:smallsmile:*

Hope this thread will reveal more and more about what the monk can do.

- Giacomo

*EDIT: just noticed a great boon - if only the hands discharge the touch spell, the monk could actually attack with his feet all the time unil he sees the time has come for the spell to discharge...Great!

[Arbitrarity]

No, not really. Instead, he's something everyone is tired of arguing about, yet they keep discussing it. So, just like religion and politics, as those are 100% forbidden here.

Aha! So do you agree people don't enjoy discussing monks?

[AmberVael]

Thanks for also jumping in. So, by that ruling the monk simply has to handle the doors etc. with his feet...that's what I'd call kick-in-door kind of play!:smallsmile:*
Alternately, he could just use the hand that isn't holding the charged spell. :smalltongue:
Or is he holding tight to his wand of Enlarge Person with his other hand?

[Illiterate Scribe]

*Jumps in from work*

Well, Illiterate Scribe and Solo, what about the following: Solo does a 28-pt-buy Ozymandias of a level he chooses, complete with spells and then I'll comment on that how the Joker would try to beat him. And how both would contribute in a party (with Ozymandias replacing the wizard and the Joker replacing the Rogue).
The problem with PvP that I encountered so far is ...


No PvP, in my opinion - it creates unnatural monstrosities.

How would y'all like that I ran, say, 'Sinister Spire' (shortest adventure - 60 pages for the whole thing), with a Joker and Ozymandias (maybe the proto-horizon tripper, as well, for testing)?

I can keep myself neutral, and it would allow as close to a 'field test' of your build as we can easily get - thus showing the practical ramifications of such a character. Thoughts?

[Morty]

Aha! So do you agree people don't enjoy discussing monks?

I know I don't. But monk threads look exactly like situations where everybody is all "Ugh, not politics again" and two minutes later they're all about which party or politician is better.

[Ne0]

I know I don't. But monk threads look exactly like situations where everybody is all "Ugh, not politics again" and two minutes later they're all about which party or politician is better.

My point exactly. >_>"

[marjan]

Yes, great going. Unfortunately at that level (which I also pointed out in my guide. Read it guys, READ IT!), the monk can do x numbe of attacks and actually force your babarian to do FIVE fort saves in one hit, if he so wishes. All of a sudden you sweat a bit more not to roll that "1". And what is worse: the next round there will be 4 more saves coming. And so on. And so on.


You can only make one Stunning Fist attempt per round regardless of the number of your attacks (I think there are feats that change this - but not in the core), so you need to really make sure that you hit your target and it fails it's saving throw to make it reliable strategy. Also you have to deal damage with your attacks to make them save - so high to-hit, damage and save DC are required for good use of Stunning Fist.



Otherwise, it just gets beaten to a pulp by the fists turned magic weapon, since the monk has a higher attack bonus while the Allip will only hit him with a 45% chance and deal WIS damage, of which the monk happens to have quite a few points. Next.

You should note that every time allip hits he will reduce your AC and that against incorporeal creatures you have 50% miss chance unless you are using Ghosttouched weapons.


So you are admitting your build is ineffective at levels below 9. That's nearly half of the game, right there.

Usually this will be more than 50% of the game, and in some cases it will be more than 100%.

[Sir Giacomo]

You can only make one Stunning Fist attempt per round regardless of the number of your attacks (I think there are feats that change this - but not in the core), so you need to really make sure that you hit your target and it fails it's saving throw to make it reliable strategy. Also you have to deal damage with your attacks to make them save - so high to-hit, damage and save DC are required for good use of Stunning Fist.

What I meant was use in one attack at level 15: stunning fist, quivering palm, a touch attack, coat the hand with poison AND force a massive save damage.


You should note that every time allip hits he will reduce your AC and that against incorporeal creatures you have 50% miss chance unless you are using Ghosttouched weapons.

Yes, true. The AC will be reduced by a grand 2. That is not going to decide that combat, I think. Everytime it tries to get near the enlarged Joker monk, it receives two attacks: the AoO and the readied attack. With a shillelagh staff (doing 3d6+4 damage with each hit).


Usually this will be more than 50% of the game, and in some cases it will be more than 100%.

I have no idea what this or the post it refers to refer to. Or put differently: do you believe at levels 1-9 the monk I built will be useless?

@Illiterate Scribe: an adventure with a Solorcerer and the Joker? Two-man party? Is it core? What level is it for?
It definitely sounds interesting.

- Giacomo

[Arbitrarity]

My point exactly. >_>"

I considered that such people do indeed dislike the topic at hand, but I see what you mean. I still should try making a poll about how many people dislike some list of commonly occuring topics.

[Solo]

How would y'all like that I ran, say, 'Sinister Spire' (shortest adventure - 60 pages for the whole thing), with a Joker and Ozymandias (maybe the proto-horizon tripper, as well, for testing)?


Sure. Is it ECL 10?

Ozymandias

Level 10

Stats:
STR 8
DEX 12 (14)
CON 12 (14)
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 20 (22)

Hp: 46.5
AB: +4 melee, +7 ranged

Initiative: +6

Saves:
Fort 5
Ref 4
Will 5

Skills:

Max K. Arcana (13), Spellcraft (15), and Concentration (15)

Items: Cloak of Charisma, Gloves of Dexterity Amulet of Health both +2, 4,000 each
Scroll: Solid Fogx2, Polymorphx1, 700 each, Displacementx2, 375 each Freedom of Movement x2 1000 each

Total GP: 16150 (is this within WBL? I can't check)

Feats: Heighten Spell (or Extend Spell), Spell Focus Transmutation, Spell Focus Necromancy (or GSF Transmuaton), Improved Initiative, Empower Spell

Spells (6/6/6/6/5/3)

0:

Ghost Sound
Prestidigitation
Detect Poison
Detect Magic
Read Magic
Message
Mage Hand
Open/Close

1:
Mage Armor
Magic Missile
Ray of Enfeeblement
Color Spray
True Strike

2:
Glitterdust
Invisibility
Alter Self
Mirror Image

3:
Ray of Exhaustion
Dispel Magic
Phantom Steed

4:
Dimension Door
Enervation

5:
Baleful Polymorph

[AmberVael]

Solo, your Ranged attack is 7, not 5. 5 BAB +2 dex mod, while melee is (as you correctly put) 5 BAB -1 str mod.

[Illiterate Scribe]

@Illiterate Scribe: an adventure with a Solorcerer and the Joker? Two-man party? Is it core? What level is it for?
It definitely sounds interesting.

- Giacomo

Basically core (some Faerunite monsters,), level 5 (although depending on numbers, that might go up to 6 - I also know that 5 is a horrible level for both Sorcs and Jokers). Some puzzles, some tactical encounters, some monsters. I'd have to read through, but I'm fairly sure that it would be alright. Watch this space.

[SamTheCleric]

That's what... DC 23 Baleful Polymorph? (10+5 [Level]+6[Cha]+1[SF]+1[GSF])... Fort save or be a bunny!

[Sir Giacomo]

Well, Solo...where is the overland flight gone? Seriously, you should get that to have a long-lasting defense available.

Plus, we apparently have to tone it down to level 5.

And since it's a one-shot adventure, likely our items with charges have only a fifth of the charges, plus the scrolls are 5x as expensive.

Hmmm...this could be interesting. To adventure at the side of the famed Solo!

:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Ps: I also strongly advise you to get the Sorcerer some way of being continuously stealthy (boots of elvenkind and the cloak); otherwise the two of us will run into trouble quite quickly.:smalltongue:

[Illiterate Scribe]

Well, Solo...where is the overland flight gone? Seriously, you should get that to have a long-lasting defense available.

Plus, we apparently have to tone it down to level 5.

And since it's a one-shot adventure, likely our items with charges have only a fifth of the charges, plus the scrolls are 5x as expensive.

Hmmm...this could be interesting. To adventure at the side of the famed Solo!

:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

To be brutally honest, the lure of forcing the two of you to work together is no inconsiderable part of this. :smalltongue:

[Solo]

Well, Solo...where is the overland flight gone? Seriously, you should get that to have a long-lasting defense available.


Read the text of Phantom Steed.


So, IS, what level are you going to have us be?

[Morty]

Fort save or be a bunny!

It can be benefical, though. I mean, would you hurt a bunny?

[Spiryt]

5:
Baleful Polymorph

Why?

Fortitude save with + 4 modifier seems a bit crapy. Most figting monsters will pass it, left alone Clerics or Barbarians. And things with spells/spell like stuff must fail another throw...

Am I missing somehing?

[Solo]

Why?

Fortitude save with + 4 modifier seems a bit crapy. Most figting monsters will pass it, left alone Clerics or Barbarians. And things with spells/spell like stuff must fail another throw...

Am I missing somehing?

casters and Rogues get bunny years, melee types get the RoE double whammy

[Signmaker]

I start this post stating what I have stated in the last Giacomo-inclusive debate: One argument at a time, folks.

I find that the problem with wall o posts is this: Too easy to mince words. If you give me a wall of arguments, I'm quite confident in my ability to pick snippets here and there and reasonably attempt to refute them. Giacomo, being debated left and right, would be able to spot them immediately. This being said, in order to preserve a worthwhile debate, one that actually ENDS portions of a heated issue rather than leave topics in moot, I beseech you, please keep your arguments to one specific issue at a time. Hopefully, this will facilitate discussion.

That being said, I'd like to toss up something that irks me.

Giacomo mentions using an Eversmoking Bottle to offer total concealment, which I would assume is to be used primarily against casters to block line-of-sight, correct?


Eversmoking Bottle

The bottle must be resealed by a command word, after which the smoke dissipates normally. A moderate wind (11+ mph) disperses the smoke in 4 rounds; a strong wind (21+ mph) disperses the smoke in 1 round.

Price 5,400 gp


Those would be the parts I am concerned with. Firstly, 5400 gp is a hefty cost. In order to avoid this from becoming a one-use item, you have to bring the bottle with you as you escape. Easily done, I know. However, here is my next issue:


This spell creates a severe blast of air (approximately 50 mph) that originates from you, affecting all creatures in its path.

Take a guess as to what spell this is. Take a guess at its level. That's right, second-level Gust of Wind. A CL3 spell that can easily be scrolled, assuming caster has not prepared it today. A second-level spell takes out this concealment effect.

Granted, that does imply approximately one round for the party to 'escape'. However, they would not escape very far.

I will concede that this argument only applies to the retreat-from-caster scenario, and that it is still viable to use against most other retreating scenarios.

[EvilElitest]

.....................................I just can't

i can't do it.

I really can't

It hurts inside, oh so much


OP, i have to ask you, why???????????????????????
why must you force me to do this?
Think about this for a second, you are attempting to prove the monk to not horribly suck. And yet, and yet, a barrier stands between your large and um, uniquely written paper and the goal you hope to achieve. That dreaded foe, known as logic stands between you and your idea like i tend to stand between small orphan children and their food. Somewhat mocking and no matter how much you poke at them with a stick you aren't going to be able to move it out of the way.

This thread has done what i thought was impossible. It has brought all of the GiP posters, people known for in fighter, arguments and snark together. They have unified into one coherisive block, a grand alliance (or 6 coalition you might say) i mean people who i never agree with are unifed with some of my best friends in this thread, all against your monk build. that is a pretty good indacation of something, because apart from univiseral hatred of Shreeded Moose and a certain comic writer known for radical ideas concerning D&D and cultist, i've never seen this before. It is just like the grand alliance between all posters against the forces of faulty builds. I beg of you, use your powers for good. Think of the things you might do, don't fall down the dark side and....


Oh who am i kidding, after reading this thread it is pretty evident that if these lads can't convince you (and pointing out a good deal of cheating/rule misunderstandings) i doubt anything i can say will. However after 10 pages, i think it is about time that the powers of law

http://www.clho.net/anime/kenshin/saito.jpg

need to put this thread to rest
http://www.chibianj.com/shopping/media/collectibles/figure/3317.gif

Please, don't descend into darkness. I offer you one last chance, please or we shall have fight. We only offer unconditional surrender

http://www.legendsofamerica.com/photos-americanhistory/Ulysses%20S.%20Grant,%201866-500.jpg



this thread is friggin' awesome.

The great posters of the Gaming Board, divided in their beliefs and gaming philosophies, have united to stop a dark terror that threatens to destroy the world of optimization as we know it. Their fellowship is truly an inspiration to us all.
I'm the paladin. Fellowship of the Bling Bling i say



And another answers the call for justice.

Hmmm... who do we still have missing?

Perhaps we should have that guy who admires this guy:
Spoiler


show up and add one of his slightly incomprehensible but well-thought out posts to the weapons battery.
OK, that is amazing. I"m late (like the Americans in WWII but who cares) but here i am. Thanks, i have to say, that was amazing
I'm honored to be considered one of the GiP's more memorable posters



Awesome, I got ignored... especially since I made a better giamonk using rogue.
I know i hate it when people simply ignore others so they can ignore evidence



Thank you Giacomo. This is obviously quite a lot of work and although I disagree with virtually everything you say It's still impressive how much effort you're prepared to put into the Gonk

Wait, when ever i put a lot of work into something your disagreeded with, and something based upon fact i might add, you ignore me. Eh? Oh well

from
EE

[Sir Giacomo]

That being said, I'd like to toss up something that irks me.

I agree with what you say, although it's difficult. And that you bring up the bottle thing (takes cover already from Reel on, Love's wrath :smallsmile:)...


Giacomo mentions using an Eversmoking Bottle to offer total concealment, which I would assume is to be used primarily against casters to block line-of-sight, correct?

Yes. It also has the nice side effect of eventually choking them (meaning they no longer can do anyhting). As a DM, I would not play with that effect (rather use the simple pyrotechnics one) since it is way too powerful for the cost.


Those would be the parts I am concerned with. Firstly, 5400 gp is a hefty cost. In order to avoid this from becoming a one-use item, you have to bring the bottle with you as you escape. Easily done, I know. However, here is my next issue:

The bottle is dead cheap, one of the most valuable items in the game. Plus, with the monk's skill set, high move and flurry it is golden (and the smoke does not block a sneak attack damage like it would for the rogue. The only thing equating the monk here is a ranger with high listen check and seeking arrows in the smoke. That would also be quite tough!).


Take a guess as to what spell this is. Take a guess at its level. That's right, second-level Gust of Wind. A CL3 spell that can easily be scrolled, assuming caster has not prepared it today. A second-level spell takes out this concealment effect.

The problem is: the gust of wind ends the smoke IN THE AREA IT AFFECTS ONLY FOR ONE ROUND. Then the smoke resumes (it is called "eversmoking" for a reason...:smallsmile:
The only ways I know to get rid of it is the control winds spell (only druids and air clerics have that), as well as (for some rounds) air elementals in whirlwind shape. Quite rare.


Granted, that does imply approximately one round for the party to 'escape'. However, they would not escape very far.

A monk in one round at the level he gets the bottle gets away 240ft. Or 60ft and hides somewhere (a move action)


I will concede that this argument only applies to the retreat-from-caster scenario, and that it is still viable to use against most other retreating scenarios.

Yep.

- Giacomo

[SamTheCleric]

We're like the Planeteers... only instead of elements... we have Sarcasm, Wit, Insults, Rules-Lawyering, Character Building and Win.

By your powers combined...

[Illiterate Scribe]

So, IS, what level are you going to have us be?

I'll get an OoC thread up later today. Level 6, probably, with an NPC rogue/healbot to cover the remaining roles.

[Solo]

We're like the Planeteers... only instead of elements... we have Sarcasm, Wit, Insults, Rules-Lawyering, Character Building and Win.

By your powers combined...

http://www.kaboodle.com/hi/img/2/0/0/72/a/AAAAAlP_lzQAAAAAAHKgqg.png?v=1190834611000

[EvilElitest]

We're like the Planeteers... only instead of elements... we have Sarcasm, Wit, Insults, Rules-Lawyering, Character Building and Win.

By your powers combined...

We can take over the world
from
EE

[Sir Giacomo]

.....................................I just can't

i can't do it.

I really can't

It hurts inside, oh so much


OP, i have to ask you, why???????????????????????
why must you force me to do this?
...etc...

Cher empereur,

you have shown the world how to fight a grand coalition of six...:smallsmile:
So why begrudge me my little quest of glory?

What fast troop movements and end of tirailleur tactics are to you, are the wands to me...you sure remember the saying...
"C'est une revolte?" "Non, c'est la revolution."

You among all know the value of La Grande Revolution! Vive la France!

- Giacomo

[Signmaker]

I am

http://www.kaboodle.com/hi/img/2/0/0/72/a/AAAAAlP_lzQAAAAAAHKgqg.png?v=1190834611000

I swear you guys plan to be simulatenously awesome like this half the time.
Apparently, Solo got a +2 synergy bonus to his Win check.

[Bleen]

I am lollin' at the idea of Giacomo and Solo working together.
It's like an episode off of a saturday morning cartoon, where the hero and his arch-nemesis begrudgingly agree to work together to fight a horrifying greater cosmic evil. Except with more lulz.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Guys...

*Uses hands to amplify the sound*

GUYS!

It's over. I've posted the guide in the CharOp boards. We just have to wait and see how it works out.

Oh, Giacomo, BTW, if you ever take challenges, remember Indiana "Batman" Jones, Factotum Extraordinaire, will be your first contender. M'Kay?

PS: Wow, I leave at 2 AM, and I get five new pages of posts.

[Solo]

Cher empereur,

you have shown the world how to fight a grand coalition of six...:smallsmile:
So why begrudge me my little quest of glory?

What fast troop movements and end of tirailleur tactics are to you, are the wands to me...you sure remember the saying...
"C'est une revolte?" "Non, c'est la revolution."

You among all know the value of La Grande Revolution! Vive la France!

- Giacomo

I see your Revolution and raise you one Russian Winter.

[marjan]

What I meant was use in one attack at level 15: stunning fist, quivering palm, a touch attack, coat the hand with poison AND force a massive save damage.


Then I misunderstood what you were saying (I thought all those saves were for stunning fist). Still none of those saves has high enough probability that enemy will fail and you cannot force them every round. Stunning fist and quivering palm will have DCs around 22 at best and poison will be probably lower. And at lvl15 class with good fort save will have it ~15 and 30% chance is nowhere near guaranteed.



Yes, true. The AC will be reduced by a grand 2. That is not going to decide that combat, I think. Everytime it tries to get near the enlarged Joker monk, it receives two attacks: the AoO and the readied attack. With a shillelagh staff (doing 3d6+4 damage with each hit).


Grand increases chance of it hitting you by 10% and it's cumulative and it gives allip 5 temp HP. And remember that both of those attacks have over 50% chance of doing 0 dmg.



I have no idea what this or the post it refers to refer to.


This post refers to Kurald's remark that 9 levels is half of campaign. What I was trying to say is that most campaigns will not last for that long.



do you believe at levels 1-9 the monk I built will be useless?


With big enough budget not completely useless. But that is the problem you need a lot of consumables (poisons, scrolls,wands, potions, etc.) which is problematic at that levels (though depending on DM this might not be the case).

[Kurald Galain]

It's over. I've posted the guide in the CharOp boards. We just have to wait and see how it works out.

Good. Link please? I'll bring the popcorn.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Here is the link:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1032986

[Azerian Kelimon]

Can't believe it. With a single post, I managed to kill off this Communication breakdown. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiL1sjGIcew)

[Sir Giacomo]

Er...Azerian Kelimon...

Two issues:
1) I'd have preferred to be asked, not just confronted with the facts. Since I do not have an account at the WoTC boards, I can hardly comment on any comments there. Will see how this develops.

2) You have posted it without any of its layout, incomplete, leaving big black boxes where the spoilers with crucial information was supposed to be. Do you think this impresses anyone there?
Well, if that is your idea of fairness...
The best thing would have been to simply post a link there and see how they react.

- Giacomo

PS/EDIT: Still I am confused whether I should be completely baffled at this lack of fairness, or fascinated by the possibility that some of the major optimisers out there will comment on it. In the latter case it's still a pity it is displayed in such a horrible way (the first poster's reaction is a tell-tale sign of this).
In any case, Azerion Kelimon's action has shown that he has run out his own arguments (not that he had any to start with, apart from "FACTOTUM THE OMFG UBERNESS") and turns to the whole optimisation community for help. I take that as a praise :smallsmile:

[Flickerdart]

I see your Revolution and raise you one Russian Winter.
I'll see you one winter and raise you Mongol hordes.

[Solo]

2) You have posted it without any of its layout, incomplete, leaving big black boxes where the spoilers with crucial information was supposed to be. Do you think this impresses anyone there?
Well, if that is your idea of fairness...
The best thing would have been to simply post a link there and see how they react.

- Giacomo
Actually, I think that's how [spoiler tags] there work.



In any case, Azerion Kelimon's action has shown that he has run out his own arguments (not that he had any to start with, apart from "FACTOTUM THE OMFG UBERNESS") and turns to the whole optimisation community for help. I take that as a praise :smallsmile:
Lol.

Or maybe he's just showcasing a bad guide so the CharOp-ers can have a laugh.

Or maybe he wants professional opinions.

Maybe, just maybe, you are too quick to jump to the wrong conclusion.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Er...Azerian Kelimon...

Two issues:
1) I'd have preferred to be asked, not just confronted with the facts. Since I do not have an account at the WoTC boards, I can hardly comment on any comments there. Will see how this develops.

2) You have posted it without any of its layout, incomplete, leaving big black boxes where the spoilers with crucial information was supposed to be. Do you think this impresses anyone there?
Well, if that is your idea of fairness...
The best thing would have been to simply post a link there and see how they react.

- Giacomo

The black boxes are Gleemax's version of your cute green spoiler boxes.

And actually, I couldn't care about preferences, of almost anyone here, one half eaten japanese baked tango dancing donut. I want this matter settled, and since I still do not have the satisfaction I requested, I simply threw the guide to the best optimizing hivemind on the planet.

Not to mention, there is even a link to the original guide. Read up 'em posts, grass'opper.

[AmberVael]

2) You have posted it without any of its layout, incomplete, leaving big black boxes where the spoilers with crucial information was supposed to be. Do you think this impresses anyone there?
Well, if that is your idea of fairness...
The best thing would have been to simply post a link there and see how they react.
Well, the "big black boxes" ARE the spoilers. Highlight them- you'll see your text.

[Vortling]

I await with interest the results of the game IS is going to run. I was horribly disappointed that the game Talic ran failed to finish. Hopefully there will be some resolution to this arguement.

[Azerian Kelimon]

And I'm still waiting for the faceoff against Indy Jones, who will clearly demonstrate himself as a better fighter than the monk. With One FoI down, fighting unarmed. And I shall go first, for my challenge will destroy the monk in all areas, assuring as a final victory.

And I repeat, I demand satisfaction.

[Solo]

And I'm still waiting for the faceoff against Indy Jones, who will clearly demonstrate himself as a better fighter than the monk. With One FoI down, fighting unarmed. And I shall go first, for my challenge will destroy the monk in all areas, assuring as a final victory.

And I repeat, I demand satisfaction.

How do you plan on keeping a girlfriend with that attitude?

[Sir Giacomo]

The black boxes are Gleemax's version of your cute green spoiler boxes.

And actually, I couldn't care about preferences, of almost anyone here, one half eaten japanese baked tango dancing donut. I want this matter settled, and since I still do not have the satisfaction I requested, I simply threw the guide to the best optimizing hivemind on the planet.

Not to mention, there is even a link to the original guide. Read up 'em posts, grass'opper.

"cute green boxes" indeed. If you cannot even handle the stuff over at the WoTC boards, you should better not post there (and try to include the links I provided next time). You could remedy it by EDITING your post to somehow resemble to what I wrote. Or reduce it to the link simply.
That would restore some of your credibiltiy in my eyes.

Grass'opper.:smallamused:

- Giacomo

[Azerian Kelimon]

How do you plan on keeping a girlfriend with that attitude?

Who said I planned for a girlfriend? Much better to go with one night stands, nobody quite stands my everyday insanity. Plus, it stops me from ruining any girls life.

Gia: You might as well post your correct version there, then. Or give me the code, because scavenging for it is hell.

[Sir Giacomo]

And I'm still waiting for the faceoff against Indy Jones, who will clearly demonstrate himself as a better fighter than the monk. With One FoI down, fighting unarmed. And I shall go first, for my challenge will destroy the monk in all areas, assuring as a final victory.

And I repeat, I demand satisfaction.

OK Azerian Kelimon, time for a rough wake up call. THE FACTOTUM HAS NO CHANCE TO OUTGRAPPLE THE MONK. Not even the core one I posted. Period. Get over it.

There is NO Factotum ability that helps him here, although it may be argued that feats might be considered extraordinary abilities and thus you could emulate an improved grapple at what- level 19 with cunning brilliance? Great. At those levels the joker monk just dodges you easily with etheral ness and notes you from far away with a +40 spot. NONE of the abilities of the FACTOTUM will help him in a grapple check (you know what a grapple check is, do you? It is neither a STR check, nor is it a skill check or ability check or attack roll. It is a GRAPPLE CHECK.)
Well actually, that is not true. ONE thing may help: casting (a limited number) spells. Even Solo's Ozymandias is better at that to boost his grapple, then.
And the buff spells the Factotum will be able to cast a limited number of times per encounter the Joker monk also has (via UMD).

You lose. Big time. The Factotum can do some great things with the ability to add x bonus to skill checks.
But outgrappling/unarmed damaging a monk is not one of them.

- Giacomo

[Solo]

Who said I planned for a girlfriend? Much better to go with one night stands, nobody quite stands my everyday insanity. Plus, it stops me from ruining any girls life.

Nine months later....

[Azerian Kelimon]

OK Azerian Kelimon, time for a rough wake up call. THE FACTOTUM HAS NO CHANCE TO OUTGRAPPLE THE MONK. Not even the core one I posted. Period. Get over it.

There is NO Factotum ability that helps him here, although it may be argued that feats might be considered extraordinary abilities and thus you could emulate an improved grapple at what- level 19 with cunning brilliance? Great. At those levels the joker monk just dodges you easily with etheral ness and notes you from far away with a +40 spot. NONE of the abilities of the FACTOTUM will help him in a grapple check (you know what a grapple check is, do you? It is neither a STR check, nor is it a skill check or ability check or attack roll. It is a GRAPPLE CHECK.)
Well actually, that is not true. ONE thing may help: casting (a limited number) spells. Even Solo's Ozymandias is better at that to boost his grapple, then.
And the buff spells the Factotum will be able to cast a limited number of times per encounter the Joker monk also has (via UMD).

You lose. Big time. The Factotum can do some great things with the ability to add x bonus to skill checks.
But outgrappling/unarmed damaging a monk is not one of them.

- Giacomo

You missed the part Where I can augment my AC, AB, and DAMAGE, young 'un.

Not to mention, I'm not stupid enough to play your game. Indy is an unarmed fighter, not a grappler. And he'll kick your ass, if he doesn't just say, "Screw it" and greases you and then SA's you to hell. I'm not going to be stupid enough to enter a grapple. I'm rather going to stay at range, and if you try to approach, I'm going to hit you with a near surefire, very damaging hit and back off.

Solo: Heh, doubt it. Simply because I play the part of such a Cloudcuckoolander it's a bit scary.

[mostlyharmful]

Wait, when ever i put a lot of work into something your disagreeded with, and something based upon fact i might add, you ignore me. Eh? Oh well

from
EE

And for that I appologize, however when you come up with something as comedicly beautiful as this then I'll turn up and post on it. The post at the top of page 7 where Gia states that his "run and hide to wait out enemy buffs" tactic is even useful in a party adventure is the level of straight man genius it's going to take..... :smalleek:

[Renegade Paladin]

The black boxes are Gleemax's version of your cute green spoiler boxes.

And actually, I couldn't care about preferences, of almost anyone here, one half eaten japanese baked tango dancing donut. I want this matter settled, and since I still do not have the satisfaction I requested, I simply threw the guide to the best optimizing hivemind on the planet.
Or it used to be. Most of the big names have abandoned ship after Autumn was removed as forum lead for no particularly good reason.

[Sir Giacomo]

And for that I appologize, however when you come up with something as comedicly beautiful as this then I'll turn up and post on it. The post at the top of page 7 where Gia states that his "run and hide to wait out enemy buffs" tactic is even useful in a party adventure is the level of straight man genius it's going to take..... :smalleek:

And here I was having read many novels where one of the heroes escapes the free the his friends later would mean anything.

Besides, mostlyharmful, I also mentioned various other ways how a monk can contribute - heck he can even with his high STR and move carry the slower party members to safety.

- Giacomo

[Solo]

Besides, mostlyharmful, I also mentioned various other ways how a monk can contribute - heck he can even with his high STR and move carry the slower party members to safety.
Your "light" load for the pony express will be a caster who weights about 130 pounds (guesstamate as to how much a 20-30 y/o wizard would weigh) with his gear.

Your heavy load will be a dwarven cleric in full plate. I don't even want to calculate the weight.

How high a STR do you need, and are you going to sacrifice any of your other stats for it? Or will you use items to buff up STR (Ah ah ah! But only after you purchase your hoard of consumables)

[Sir Giacomo]

Well, Azerian Kelimon, if you are unwilling to clean up the mess you left yourself, I suggest you go and edit the post to a simple link, so that WoTC optimisers will read MY original post, instead of your thwarted one.

And so far posters over there have not added anything new. Dictum Mortuum has even added some odd notions (one of my favourites is that he cannot imagine someone using UMD to get total concealment, wow. But the idea that a wizard can go melee vs a monk is also a good one, as is the apparent lack of knowledge on how the move enhancement works - it works on ALL movement, including fly effects. Ah, and just discovered that he believes you can still cast dimension door in an AMF. Funny, that).


You missed the part Where I can augment my AC, AB, and DAMAGE, young 'un.

Wow. ONE. ROLL. EACH of the three you mention for your meagre inspiration points. That really impresses me. One full round attack at high levels, and you're finished for the encounter.


Not to mention, I'm not stupid enough to play your game. Indy is an unarmed fighter, not a grappler. And he'll kick your ass, if he doesn't just say, "Screw it" and greases you and then SA's you to hell. I'm not going to be stupid enough to enter a grapple. I'm rather going to stay at range, and if you try to approach, I'm going to hit you with a near surefire, very damaging hit and back off.

Your Indy analogy is a bit flawed. The monk with exotic weapon proficiency-whip would make a better Indiana Jones for sure.
Greasing me? How? How long do you think a 1st level spell is going to matter against the Joker monk?
And as for using grease to add to the escape artist check vs the grapple: that will not help you much, which I already explained way above. The escape artist is a standard action. So even if you escape you move away (triggering AoO) and will be grappled in the next round again. Great.
And avoiding the grappling tactics is much more difficult than you would wish.
Although at 9th level you have possibly the freedom of movement up. IF you win initiative (admittedly THAT is a DEX check, so you could add your FACTOTUM level to that...if you'Re not surprised by the Joker monk.

- Giacomo

[Azerian Kelimon]

You're out of your depth, Giacomo. In order:

Yes, one roll each. At high levels, I have something like 30-40 IP. I will dodge whatever you throw at me, and one hit o' mine will send you flying.

And you didn't even get the tactic. Why would I grease YOU? I'd grease the floor beneath me. If you get close to me, you're flatfooted, since your monk has no five ranks of balance ot avoid flatfootedness. You're at the mercy of a single SA I choose not to dish out.

Then, which escape artist? I'm thinking of something simple. I stay away. Every time you enter my range, I AoO you. I retreat 10'. Repeat. No escape artist. Not to mention, I can move with impunity, because having my INT bonus PLUS my Dex to tumble means I'm never going to cause AoO's from you.

At high levels, of course, I have Freedom of Movement, killing your strategy.

And you missed something: Since Initiative is a Dex check, I get to add my intelligence to it. I'm going to go first, which gives me high ground in actions.

Now, instead of talking, we can solve this. Are you willing to take up the duel? Or to give me the code of your post so that I may edit the OP?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

If possible, can we split this discussion into about 3 threads? One on "Monk using UMD", one on "Grappling as a Monk", one on "Monk v. Caster", and one on "Monk as a Skillmonkey". This is getting confusing and over-involved for those trying to follow, and many good posts have been completely ignored.

[mostlyharmful]

How high a STR do you need, and are you going to sacrifice any of your other stats for it? Or will you use items to buff up STR (Ah ah ah! But only after you purchase your hoard of consumables)

I would imagine he'd want to stand around for a few rounds, put on bulls strength, add in a fresh casting of Enlarge Person so it'll last long enough to get well clear, hell throw in a spare casting of Divine power for the Str boost to make sure the Str-Dump-Stat (not in the least MAD by the way) monk can carry the Tank. maybe add a round or two for the failure chance...:smallconfused:

I think we can trust the flying, invisible, porting, whatevering mage to take care of himself if the entire team decides to run at the same time and the Giamonk doesn't just rat out on his mates (as the original idea seems to have been).

Edit: And to the above, I think having them all together adds to this thread, it shows just how many areas this build is lacking and glossing over, if we had one or two issues both the build and the thread would be workable.

[Arbitrarity]

Hey, that's not fair. You know bull's strength and Divine Power don't stack.

And righteous might gives 2 more strength than enlarge person, albeit it costs around 20 times as much per casting.

[mostlyharmful]

Hey, that's not fair. You know bull's strength and Divine Power don't stack.

And righteous might gives 2 more strength than enlarge person, albeit it costs around 20 times as much per casting.

Fair enough. Then We'll blow the Divine Power to try to compete in combat. Then when it all goes south we'll throw on the longer lasting Bulls Strength so the Tank will be carryable. And then we'll take all the treasure we've accumulated and pee it alllllll up the wall.

[Deepblue706]

But, Deepblue706. That's what I have done. The Joker I posted is not only about fighting casters. Actually, he can also fill the party roles of a scout and combatant.

Yes, you did, but there seems to be a particular bias towards fighting casters that detracts from what you offer to other roles. I think you could be more thorough on other fronts, is all.

[lord_khaine]

SG, dont bother to hold your monk up against non-core builds, its a unfair competition when one side can draw on resources from several books, and another is limited to a singel core class with only core gear and feats.


If possible, can we split this discussion into about 3 threads? One on "Monk using UMD", one on "Grappling as a Monk", one on "Monk v. Caster", and one on "Monk as a Skillmonkey". This is getting confusing and over-involved for those trying to follow, and many good posts have been completely ignored.
well actualy grappling is more the domain of my monks, i will start working on a guide when i get time, and post it next time i think the forum is to dead.

and on a side note, i actualy think Giamonk has a bigger claim to the title Batman than the wizard has.
if you think about it, then batman usualy wins with limited resources, though stealth, cunning and a small supply off gadget.

wizards on the other hand, are more like Green lantern, powerfull enough to just walk in and beat everyone though raw power.

[marjan]

SG, dont bother to hold your monk up against non-core builds, its a unfair competition when one side can draw on resources from several books, and another is limited to a singel core class with only core gear and feats.

This got me wondering why is Sir Giacomo insisting on sticking to core material. As far as I know so far there was no guide that was insisting on being core-only material, until this one.

[Rutee]

and on a side note, i actualy think Giamonk has a bigger claim to the title Batman than the wizard has.
if you think about it, then batman usualy wins with limited resources, though stealth, cunning and a small supply off gadget.

Wizards have limited resources, require cunning, and can use Giacomo's toys better then Giacomo can. Superior Invisibility (Oh noze, non Core!) gives them better stealth.

[Eldariel]

Let's make things simple:
-Monk cannot be a proper scout since he cannot find traps (no Trapfinding, no Search, no Disable Device), so in any dungeon, he'll just walk into traps and die. Congratu-****ing-lations. You just got rid of yourself.

-Monk doesn't have maxed Dex or Wis and since Spot/Hide and Listen/Move Silently are opposed checks, he's at a disadvantage versus anything which is focusing on either trait while also maxing the skill. That means he cannot be a reliable spotter, listener nor a hiding/move silently scout. Leave that to the Rogues and Druids, your Monk is only good enough to sneak past mooks and low HD monsters.

-Use Magic Device is mostly wasted here as you don't use the utility wands nor the offensive ones and you don't have the time to buff before most fights. You spend a huge amount of resources on getting UMD without Charisma and with it as a crossclass skill. All you get for the trouble is a slightly-more-economic-than-potions way to use few spells, and still a total inability to use Moment of Prescience, Time Stop, Shapechange, all the spells worth using

Sure, spells help you, but that doesn't make Monk better than any other class in comparison; indeed, even Fighter has the same ability to UMD as a Monk, except since Fighter has less MAD, he can afford some points on Charisma. Also, the whole AMF tactic is pretty crappy as you negate all your buffs when using it, and Monk without buffs wasting two feats on UMD won't be standing up to anything.

-You don't get a way to consistently use Wands in time, which sucks as the boosts with low CL don't last long and therefore you don't have much time to boost even when knowing the opponent is coming beforehand.

-Grappling is a very limited tactic. When fighting against a single tough opponent, it's probably way too tough to Grapple (either has the magic to avoid grapple, or has the power to easily outgrapple you) and when fighting against hordes, you should be controlling masses and dealing damage instead of focusing on a single opponent.

-Grappling is a PvP tactic mostly and mediocre at best even there. Leave it to those with incredible Strength and full BAB (Barbarians, mostly). Unfortunately Monk doesn't get anything beyond extra attacks that they can't even use after a move to help them in Grapple. Everyone can pick up Improved Grapple and anyone with full BAB and Strength-focus is going to outgrapple you. Anyone with Dex-focus is going to be able to escape your Grapple.


In other words, you have a build that devotes a ton of resources to being able to spend actions (spending actions = not contributing in combat; every round you buff, your allies are getting pummeled by the guys you should be holding back) to buff in the beginning of each combat and cannot fight nor scout.

This whole "tactical fighting" thing you're saying implies you'd have the ability to shape the battlefield somehow and thus restrict the opponents and enable your own allies to fight more effectively. This Monk cannot do that. You need reach and attacks of opportunities to do it; grapple is totally opposite, making you threaten no space and taking you out of combat while making you an easy target for opponents to kill.

You cannot scout since you lack the skill inherent to keeping yourself alive while crawling in dungeons. You have a good speed, but that doesn't let you outrun a trap you triggered.


Here are Monk's problems in a nutshell:
-Their primary attacks have a low chance of hitting due to medium BAB, and the thing they advance in damage (unarmed strike) is horribly expensive to enhance magically*.

Your proposed fix? Use Divine Power. Requires an action. Also, doesn't give your attack any abilities, just full BAB. Helps, but you cannot have it up all day so you tend to waste few turns you could be dealing damage to pump up. Also, you waste 2 perfectly good feats.

-They advance two useful abilities, fast movement and flurry of blows, but cannot combine these in a meaningful way in combat. Fast movement mostly would allow them to scout if they had Trapfinding (they don't), while Flurry would make up for their medium BAB if they had a way to take full attacks (they don't). Main problem here is Spring Attack-feat sucking.

Your proposed fix? Grapple. Doesn't work. You don't have Strength and BAB to pull it off without boosting and the time to boost. Also, you'll still only get one hit turn 1 (a relevant hit chance) and you'll lose in grapple to most CR appropriate encounters and you're not helping enough by just taking out one guy vs. swarms. It doesn't address the main issue of not being able to move and attack properly.

-They need Dex and Wis for AC, Con for HP (especially with their low hit die), Int due to their low natural skills and Str if they want to ever pursue a combat style other than just hitting things. That means they'll have ~+2 to all, which leaves them doing all their things in a mediocre manner**.

Your proposed fix? Just spread scores around. Leaves you sucking in all areas. You really need high scores in at least Str and Wis for a Monk to work out; Con too to survive.

-Their feats are very limited. Stunning Fist is good, but due to low Wis will never reach credible levels without extreme focus. Others of them are mediocre or poor. Str and medium BAB mean you won't be a good grappler. Same goes for tripping. Disarming without helping weapons is nearly impossible, and sundering is just dumb.

Your proposed fix? None, you go with the plan of taking a tactic you cannot really pull off.

-They have no protections from Sneak Attack (and can't wear armor so they can't pick up Fortifications), and with their low HP, strikers will kill them really fast.

Your proposed fix? None. You actually make it easy for them by grappling people.



*Amulet of Mighty Fists and Natural Attacks are both much more expensive than enhanced weapons so the best you can hope is a +5 Greater Magic Weapon from the party caster if you want to afford other things. That means you'll need to roll high all your career to hit any real ACs.
**They can't get high AC since they can't afford high Dex and Wis. They can't get high saves since they can't afford high Con, Wis and Dex (even with their progression). They can't get enough skillpoints since they can't get a high Int. They can't hit well enough and use alternative combat styles, since they can't afford high Str. They cannot make use of Stunning Fist without high Wis. Their opposed checks are poor due to the lack of stats. They have low HP due to lowish hit die and low Con.

[Kurald Galain]

and on a side note, i actualy think Giamonk has a bigger claim to the title Batman than the wizard has.

Hahahahahahah!

ROFL

Hahahahahaha!

That line was the funniest, most nonsensical statement in the entire thread. And that's saying a lot.

[AmberVael]

Actually, I think Khaine is quite right.

Unfortunately, this is not an argument for the monk being good. Instead, it is an argument for Batman using cool but ultimately subpar tactics which only work because he has a load of money which he spends on fancy gadgets. :smalltongue:

[warmachine]

The members of the Gleemax Character Optimization forum have not been kind. Some quotes from the board

There are so many holes in this handbook it could drain pasta.

That said, there's one thing that is always consistant whenever I read a single phrase:

Quote:“The monk has no specialty, so at best makes a nice 5th team member”

Whenever you read "This class makes a great 5th member of your party" it = "This class isn't good enough to be one of the first 4, but fills the waste of space position admirably"

That said - a commoner with armfuls of magic items and maxed UMD (as cross class) isn't all bad either.

I stopped reading after the first set of blacked out blocks.

So his first arguement boils down to "said class can take UMD as a cross class skill and use magic items or have spells cast on him, therefore said class doesn't suck."

and then the gibberish gets worse....

[mostlyharmful]

Actually, I think Khaine is quite right.

Unfortunately, this is not a good argument for the monk being good. Instead, it is an argument for Batman using cool but ultimately subpar tactics which only work because he has a load of money which he spends on fancy gadgets. :smalltongue:

A tactic that can be pursued when you're bruce "big bags of disposable cash" Wayne. Not so much when you have a WBL built in regulator that puts you on the same footing as those around you.

[AmberVael]

A tactic that can be pursued when you're bruce "big bags of disposable cash" Wayne. Not so much when you have a WBL built in regulator that puts you on the same footing as those around you.

Glad we see eye to eye. :smallwink:

Might work with something like the d20 Modern wealth system (which is really broken when you come down to it), but otherwise...

[NEO|Phyte]

Might work with something like the d20 Modern wealth system (which is really broken when you come down to it), but otherwise...

Oh yeah, the d20 Modern wealth system can give you a VERY nice Bruce Wayne. (http://d20resources.com/future.d20.srd/starting.occupations/heir.php)

The key line:
Wealth Bonus Increase: +6. An heir may permanently reduce her Reputation bonus by 1 to increase her starting wealth bonus by an additional +1d6; this expenditure must be made before the character begins play. As long as her Reputation bonus is +1 or higher, an heir’s wealth bonus can never drop below 10.

[mostlyharmful]

Glad we see eye to eye. :smallwink:

Might work with something like the d20 Modern wealth system (which is really broken when you come down to it), but otherwise...

Personally I like the modern version, the mentality of don't sweat the little stuff and the DM imposses random extra modifiers and downgrades your Wealth roll bonus when they feel like it, much more like real finance. I've only played with that mechanizem once but it seemed to work dependant on DM control of course.

[Rutee]

I prefer Wealth or Resources systems as well. Tracking the preciseness of finance is more for a truly gamist experience. While that's what DnD's built for, it's not quite what I want either :P

[Jack Mann]

and on a side note, i actualy think Giamonk has a bigger claim to the title Batman than the wizard has.
if you think about it, then batman usualy wins with limited resources, though stealth, cunning and a small supply off gadget.

I've highlighted the word that shows the flaw in this argument.

[Talya]

Let's ignore that Giamonk has no monkishness about him, for a moment. Let's ignore that he's totally reliant on gear you can't buy, and cross-classing UMD. Let's ignore that it wouldn't work anyway, cause the wizard can do it all better.

Let's just focus on one thing. Now, I'm not much of a believer in the "Batman Wizard" reigning supreme, because it's bull****. But his whole analogy is flawed from the beginning, for one simple reason:

Batman always beats the Joker.

[EvilElitest]

Cher empereur,

you have shown the world how to fight a grand coalition of six...:smallsmile:
So why begrudge me my little quest of glory?

What fast troop movements and end of tirailleur tactics are to you, are the wands to me...you sure remember the saying...
"C'est une revolte?" "Non, c'est la revolution."

You among all know the value of La Grande Revolution! Vive la France!

- Giacomo

Ok, you do get points for the French knowledge.

However you forget something very important detail

The Empeoeor may have fought all of Europe at once.....for 16 years, and destroyed 5 coalitionists, but he had a workable goal. Until the invasion of Spain he was famous for being a realistic. your more like John Brown, fighting for a noble cause, but with motives that are both incorrect and impossible

instead of trying to 'prove' the monk's greatness, focus more on fixing a totally underpowered class. Even if, and i must stress if your concept is legal, and even if, and i mean another big if it is workable, it is a massively complex deal to go with with and very hard to bring about. Focus on fixing the monk instead, changing the rules to make it less absurdly underpowered. Us your powers for a battle you can win



I see your Revolution and raise you one Russian Winter.
Ok, everybody makes mistakes, and nobody expected the Russians would burn their own food (other than the Russian peasents, but nobody asked them). Might i remind you of the defeats of Austria




How do you plan on keeping a girlfriend with that attitude?
Credit card?



And for that I appologize, however when you come up with something as comedicly beautiful as this then I'll turn up and post on it. The post at the top of page 7 where Gia states that his "run and hide to wait out enemy buffs" tactic is even useful in a party adventure is the level of straight man genius it's going to take.....
wait, so we buried the hatchet? Yes
from
EE

[Corolinth]

He makes some stupid assumptions, most notably the availability of two or three charge wands at Doug's Five and Dime, but I didn't find any of his stupid assumptions to be any more ridiculous than those made by the proponents of Batman. (Divination spells allowing you to plan out your encounters every day? What DM do you play with who actually gives you answers that specific?)

So all told, as far as stupid assumptions go, we have a mulligan.

[warmachine]

More from the Gleemax forum.

Why would a monk, a lawful character, want to embrace the part of the Joker, an obviously chaotic character.

And as pro-monk as I am, this guide is like the opposite of monk optimization.

[Azerian Kelimon]

He makes some stupid assumptions, most notably the availability of two or three charge wands at Doug's Five and Dime, but I didn't find any of his stupid assumptions to be any more ridiculous than those made by the proponents of Batman. (Divination spells allowing you to plan out your encounters every day? What DM do you play with who actually gives you answers that specific?)

So all told, as far as stupid assumptions go, we have a mulligan.

Scry lets you actually scan the place. That's about as specific as it could possibly get.

Not to mention, most places have themed encounters, thus you can prepare.

[Gorbash]

Let's just focus on one thing. Now, I'm not much of a believer in the "Batman Wizard" reigning supreme, because it's bull****

Then you're no better than Giacomo yourself... Who, in your opinion, reigns supreme then?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Not to mention, he's forgetting the Wizard's maxim:

When in Doubt, Solid Fog it and Enervate it. Then, performed a naked ritualistic dance of victory over its corpse.

[EvilElitest]

This thread brings us all closer together
from
EE

[Oslecamo]

Batman always beats the Joker.

Wrong. The Joker kicked Batman's butt several times in several ways.

However, instead of finishing off Batman, he puts him in some lunatic trap and starts to make villain speeches, giving Batman all the time in the world to escape.

In the other hand, when Batman finally catches the Joker, he sends him to some low security place, from where theJoker easily runs away. It doesn't matter that the Joker has just killed several hundred little childrens in horrible ways, Batman argues that he's just crazy and doesn't deserve to be killed.

The Batman suports Joker and the Joker suports Batman. That's the real true, and what D&D is all about. It isn't about some guys trying to kill each other, is about sone guys teaming up in strange ways and killing everybody else.

Someone isn't a hero or villain because he has amazing powers. Someone is a hero or a villain because he beats the crap out of other people. And you don't need to bend the laws of the universe to beat the crap out of people.

[Signmaker]

The Joker exists solely for Batman.

Remember what happened when Batman "died"? Joker stopped being Joker.

In this sense, it is not the monk that is Joker, but instead Giacomo. He fights on these forums despite failing because his ultimate adversary still exists. When this adversary is brought down, Giacomo will retreat in to what is known as The Real World, to live a normal life until the Wizard is revived once again.

[Rutee]

When in Doubt, Solid Fog it and Enervate it. Then, performed a naked ritualistic dance of victory over its corpse.

So that's what I was doing wrong. Stupid useless details.
And here I thought it was performed with the aid of a pole.. arm.

[Azerian Kelimon]

The Joker exists solely for Batman.

Remember what happened when Batman died? Joker stopped being Joker.

In this sense, it is not the monk that is Joker, but instead Giacomo. He fights on these forums despite failing because his ultimate adversary still exists. When this adversary is brought down, Giacomo will retreat in to what is known as The Real World, to live a normal life until the Wizard is revived once again.

Then, hopefully, we'll see his fall when 4th comes a-rollin'.

[EvilElitest]

So that's what I was doing wrong. Stupid useless details.
And here I thought it was performed with the aid of a pole.. arm.

I'm not going to think about that too hard now
from
EE

[Rutee]

Then, hopefully, we'll see his fall when 4th comes a-rollin'.

Wouldn't he just do battle against the new FotM though? Unless it's Monk I guess.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Meh, actually, that's the short version. The long version defiles the remains, by blasting Heal the World above the corpse, then playing a Pauly Shore movie, then having a dimwitted orc lady service them bodies, THEN performing the dance.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Wouldn't he just do battle against the new FotM though? Unless it's Monk I guess.

Hmm...what does FoTM mean? Then I'll be able to stage a clever response.

[Rutee]

Flavor of the Month. Not totally accurate to Wizards' general dominance, but it'll do in the time before we figure out what's most powerful in 4e.

[Bleen]

Flavor of the Month. Basically, whatever incarnation will become the "Batman" of 4e, though not necessarily with the "Batman" name or style. You know, the class that everyone will agree is the most powerful in the current edition.

Edit: Ninja'd. Or Kunoichi'd, even.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Aaah.

But I think not, in fact. Wizards had a long standing dominance, which is what made them viable targets for Giacomo's quixotic crusade. If a new power appears every month, it simply is not interesting for him because he is not fighting against a well established force that outmatches him.

[EvilElitest]

Aaah.

But I think not, in fact. Wizards had a long standing dominance, which is what made them viable targets for Giacomo's quixotic crusade. If a new power appears every month, it simply is not interesting for him because he is not fighting against a well established force that outmatches him.

what ever class is greatest in 4E however....
from
EE

[Signmaker]

Aaah.

But I think not, in fact. Wizards had a long standing dominance, which is what made them viable targets for Giacomo's quixotic crusade. If a new power appears every month, it simply is not interesting for him because he is not fighting against a well established force that outmatches him.

Like trying to be the arch nemesis to Squirrel Girl.

[Azerian Kelimon]

what ever class is greatest in 4E however....
from
EE

Nah, but the thing that enraptures Giacomo is NOT simply the current most powerful class, but the traditional, entrenched and affirmed as most powerful class. Hence, I predict he'll falter.

Edit: Sign: EXACTLY, but in the reverse. It's like trying to be the archenemy of the Monster of the week, which "Is the most powerful we have seen thus far!"

[Rutee]

Aaah.

But I think not, in fact. Wizards had a long standing dominance, which is what made them viable targets for Giacomo's quixotic crusade. If a new power appears every month, it simply is not interesting for him because he is not fighting against a well established force that outmatches him.
That's true, as nobody would take the target's dominance for sacrosanct. Or at least, it would be less so, since there's a habit of tipping the sacred cow.



Like trying to be the arch nemesis to Squirrel Girl.
What if you had just as much plot armor?

[Azerian Kelimon]

As I've just affirmed, it's more like trying to be the archnemesis of the monster of the week. No use in doing it.

[Signmaker]

What if you had just as much plot armor?

I will admit, Doctor Doom never saw it coming.

[Bandededed]

First: I'll admit I didn't troll through the 13+ pages or so that popped up since this thread began (Like 2 friggin' days ago, WTF).

Second: Sir Giacomo, while I like the monk class to (mostly for flavor reasons) I will readily admit that as per core it doesn't stand up to any other classes at all. If you really want proof, let's crunch a monk v. fighter, OK?

Billy and Bob are twin human brothers. They have the same stats. Billy is a level 20 monk, and Bob is a level 20 fighter. We're going to stat them without any magical items, because if Billy bought it than Bob bought it too, understand? Let's assume 25 point buy and average HP.

Stats: 13 Str, 10 Dex, 12 Con, 10 Int, 16 Wis, 8 Cha. Note that the fighter has already screwed himself with these stats (it should be obvious why)

HP: Billy: 93.5 + 20 = 113.5 - Bob: 110 + 20 = 130 |Bob has, and always will have, a better HP total, especially if he ups Con and dumps Wis.

AC: Billy: 13 - Bob: 10 | so bob's AC will be 3 lower than Billy's if he never wears armor... pathetic.

Initiative: +0

Speed: Billy: 90 - Bob: 30| Which would be a big deal, but it's an enhancement bonus. A potion of Expeditious Retreat costs 50 GP, if you really need it, and doesn't work on Billy.

BAB: Billy: 15 - Bob: 20 | Bob will hit more and more often. "But Billy has Flurry of Blows!" Wonderful, now he can miss more often. Note that Bob also has a better grapple, a better trip, and better everything else that requires a BAB + x roll.

Feats: Billy will have 7 feats from leveling, 1 human feat and 3 monk bonus feats.

Bob will have 7 feats from leveling, 1 human feat, and 11 fighter bonus feats, which include almost every monk feat. Whichever feats Billy takes, Bob can find a way to take them and more.

Skills: Ah here a place where Billy wins! He has 2 more skill points per level than Bob, and a better skill selection. It still doesn't make up for his previous problems, though.

So, Bob wins. Bob wins while tying his arm behind his back. He is also easier to create, and wins even more when he doesn't waste his puny 25 point buy on stats that are worthless to him.

Oh, Billy gets some other poor class abilities too; too bad most of them are either useless or usable just once per day (or week), and most are easy to replicate with magic items.

**Credit for this idea originally goes to a poster who's name I cannot remember, but whose thought I will never forget.

[Rutee]

As I've just affirmed, it's more like trying to be the archnemesis of the monster of the week. No use in doing it.

So one would think. However, CoH proves you wrong; There are (Or at least, were) players who violently opposed the idea of FotM in PvP, and would constantly claim them to be pointless and not actually SUPER EFFECTIVE.

However, as I didn't know the mechanics of CoH in a deep enough depth (Because that was a game I played with the explicit purpose of not caring about the underlying mechanics as I do normal MMOs), I can't comment on whether or not they were truly accurate. But you'll find people oppose FotM on principle too.

[Azerian Kelimon]

So one would think. However, CoH proves you wrong; There are (Or at least, were) players who violently opposed the idea of FotM in PvP, and would constantly claim them to be pointless and not actually SUPER EFFECTIVE.

However, as I didn't know the mechanics of CoH in a deep enough depth (Because that was a game I played with the explicit purpose of not caring about the underlying mechanics as I do normal MMOs), I can't comment on whether or not they were truly accurate. But you'll find people oppose FotM on principle too.

Yeah, but those are what we have the Block forum button for.

[Rutee]

Well, I'm just saying Giacomo may in fact just do battle with the FotM until and unless a solid best class is established. It's certainly not unknown.

[EvilElitest]

We could solve this argument through fisticuffs. Giacomo can take us on one at a time, Uwe Boll style. Except you know, playing fair
from
EE

[Azerian Kelimon]

Well, I'm just saying Giacomo may in fact just do battle with the FotM until and unless a solid best class is established. It's certainly not unknown.

The interesting thing is...what would happen if there is NO clear best class ever, because the designers pulled the balancing off flawlessly?

I'm betting on self destruction.

[Rutee]

Probably the FotM deal, where a new build arises until it is to be toppled. Balancing doesn't need to be perfect for that, but that's what seems to be the result of a job well done.

Though self destruction is funnier.

[Signmaker]

The interesting thing is...what would happen if there is NO clear best class ever, because the designers pulled the balancing off flawlessly?

...

"And then the heavens opened up, and single ray of light shone on the promised land. The garden of Paradise opened its doors once again, and PCkind was Saved."

[greenknight]

Nah, but the thing that enraptures Giacomo is NOT simply the current most powerful class, but the traditional, entrenched and affirmed as most powerful class. Hence, I predict he'll falter.

Sir Giacomo has the (mistaken) belief that the base classes in 3.5e Core are balanced. So it makes sense that he will defend the classes which are considered to be weak against those classes considered to be strong, and it also makes sense that he will stay almost entirely with Core material for his arguments. 4e is a different game, and may lead to SG having different beliefs - he might even decide that the classes aren't balanced in 4e when nearly everyone else thinks they are. And then we might have the opposite discussion with SG proposing over- or under- powered classes and everyone else showing why they aren't. Yeah, I know that's not likely to happen, but still...

Ultimately, I think the Monk does have something useful to contribute in high level games. That purpose being to serve as the mount for the party Sorcerer/Wizard. I doubt you'd even need to train most Monks when you use the Air Walk spell on them.

[Azerian Kelimon]

"Until the tarantela dancing monkeys and the rabid fanbois/fangahs tore paradise down and feasted on it's necrophilia-defiled remains."

[EvilElitest]

I still like my boxing idea
from
EE

[Talic]

I understand if you're not 100% on it, it is 7 pages back. Feel free to review it and get back to me.

You advise me to read one of your posts way back showing what allegedly is written in my guide? Hmm. Will do it. No, I advise you to reread your guide. As it was a while back, you may have become unfamiliar with the overall tone, which is pretty much summed up by the thread title: "Beating Batman". This is not a practical monk guide, so much as a dedicated statement "Monk > Caster".

The majority of you OP is designed around the concept of "Monk vs caster". That is not "party contribution".

Because opponent casters are very rare, yes.It's a single subset of enemy. While it's admirable to go against, the very title that you placed is contradicting you. The thread is not about "Party contribution". It's about "Beating Batman".

That's "monk > caster".

Nope, it is "monk > caster" in 50% of the times. Other times, the caster will beat the monk. It's called balance. Or, the monk is stronger vs casters, while the casters are in turn stronger than other classes. Close call.Refer to thread title.
Friendly reminder, stating that someone obviously didn't read what you wrote is a violation of board policies if I'm not mistaken. There's a forum rules thread at the top of the section that can give the specifics, I believe.

Talic, if you maintain that my build reaches safe UMD usage only at level 20 despite it being clearly written to be already so at level 15 to then fail to use his wand of enlarge - does this tell me that you have read my guide or not?
But OK, thanks for the hint, I'll abide by the rule and no longer maintain anyone has not read my guide when commenting on it.Again with the taking me out of context. I used what, in my opinion, were the largest justifiable resources for attaining the goal you set. If you want to use +6 cha items and wands of heroism that are unaffordable at level 9 (disposable income listing to come), then yeah, you may get it earlier. Note that total WBL at level 9 is about the same as that cloak of charisma. Also, note the cost of 14 charges off a wand of heroism. It's about 3,150gp. Thus, to achieve this level of effectiveness in all 14 encounters, you'll need to expend 3,150gp... Just for the privilege of using wands in combat.


Also, I'm not responding to what you "allegedly" said. I'm responding to Post 1 of this thread. It's a while back there, again, feel free to refresh yourself on it, as the thread has seemingly devolved into grappling discussion for some time.

Hmm. Maybe I misunderstand here.
Post one of this thread is the first part of my guide.
Post one of another posters is Nebo's short comment "Swordsages are better".
Do you mean your first post? Pls then point out to me what passage you mean where I should have a closer look again.I did. I pointed to Post 1 of this thread. The first part of your guide. It's understandable if, over the course of this many pages of argument, you've lost sight of some of the earlier posts. They are, admittedly, forgettable, and there are an awful lot of memorable posts between them to distract you.
Accusation? Have I posted with any statements lauding one class over another here? No, I've debated your specific posts here. Nothing else.

OK. So you believe the monk is as good as the other (core) classes, and thus you differ only in my approach to show what can be done about that.
Welcome to the monk defense club, then!:smallsmile:Wrong. That I don't let this devolve into a class vs class discussion does not mean that I believe monk is as mechanically effective as another class. I don't believe that I've ever, in my 29 years on this earth, ever said that. All I'm doing is debating your posts on their merit. I'm not trying to take my personal opinions and interject them as fact. Please don't misrepresent my positions or statements.
As actions are at a premium in combat, when the wizard uses a spell to buff the monk, the wizard is using his combat currency to help another class. The monk then does what he does. When the monk attacks, he's overcoming the challenge, with the wizard's assistance. The wizard is showing that he can help another class.

While the monk who made the (buffed) attack did not show anything? Imo an odd perception of how teamwork works.It did not show anything that another class couldn't do equally well, if not better.

Outside of combat and inside of combat are two totally different worlds. Outside, time is less regimented, and you have actions. In the typical combat, you have 3-5 standard actions to spend. The wizard must choose to do something with those actions, whether it's block LOS, grease an enemy, magic missile, web, or what. When he spends that action HELPING the monk, he isn't doing anything else. If he is giving up his ability to do nothing but assist the monk in doing his task, it's fair to say that the wizard is showing usefulness to the party, if that buff is effective.

Which is why I devoted so much effort in the guide to show that you should find alternatives to buffing IN combat at low levels. Meanwhile, lord_khaine pointed out the obvious help of (more expensive) potions of enlarge to overcome the main combat buff problem.I'll point out how potions are prohibitive to WBL at low levels in a bit. If you're using wands when not in challenges, then it may be needed to adjust the used disposable income upwards to reflect that additional waste of resources.
The monk isn't showing any more usefulness than anyone else, if that same spell could be applied to another class just as well. Let's say Barbarian. 18 str, 22 rage, 24 enlarge for a +14 total grapple mod, and with reach, won't provoke from most enemies.

A STR 18 barbarian? This seems to come at a cost somehwere. Let me see. Yes, likely that barbarian will not have a DEX of 15 necessary to keep the improved grapple feat in enlarged form. And why again should the barbarian devote ALL of his feats into an attacking form that makes least use out of his power attack option (least as in: NO use).?The barbarian wasn't listed as having improved grapple. :smallamused: In fact, the only thing the barbarian used was 18 base strength, Rage, and the enlarge buff. That's a 24 strength (+7) Full Base Attack (+3), and size bonus (+4). Improved grapple was not factored, as the majority of foes at CD 3 do not have reach, and thus would be unable to take the AoO provoked. It's understandable though. You've done such a great job misinterpreting my posts thus far. Why stop now?


Let's say fighter. 18 str,+2 enlarge, Improved grapple, for a total of +5 str +3 BAB +4 Size +4 Improved grapple or +16.

Now that is something better - because a fighter has the feats to spare. Still, the fighter falls behind the monk for the same MAD reasons (DEX 15 AND STR 18? So what kind of othter stats are there? The first Charm Person is going to take this guy out, worse, may turn him against the party).
No, for a fighter unarmed fighting may be one of various things to develop at later levels, but otherwise the weaponmaster of the game should also make use of said weapons. He'll never be able to outgrapple the Joker monk at high levels, for instance.Note: Charm person, by a semi optimized caster (18 to casting stat, greater spell focus) is DC 16. Assuming that the level 3 fighter has a total mod of +1, he has a 30% chance of passing. The monk, assuming a total mod of +5, has a 50% chance of passing. As can be shown, the spell is pretty devastating to both, at low levels.

Both classes can do it just as well, if not better, with little effort. 18 str is something good for both classes anyway.

And not for the monk?Not if he's planning on having a high charisma for UMD, and a moderately high dex, will, and con, for AC, HP, and saves. Something's gotta give, Giacomo. Something's gotta give.

Monk: Str 14, Dex 14, Wis 12, con 10, int 8, cha 16 (28 points)
Fighter: Str 16, Dex 16, Con 12, Wis 10, Int 10, Cha 8 (28 points)
Barbarian: Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 8 (28 points)

In the above example, monk will have a final enlarged mod of +2 BAB, +4 Size, +3 Str, +4 Imp Grapple, or +13.
Fighter, with improved grapple, will have: +4 Str, +3 BAB, +4 Size, +4 Imp Grapple, or +15.
Barbarian, with Rage, will have: +7 Str, +3 BAB, +4 Size, or +14.

All 28 point builds. Happy?

Now, in a perfect world, we'd have enough for everyone, but when the wizard has the choice between the 18str barbarian and the 14 str monk for that enlarge... `

No, the wizard should better somehow protect the barbarian vs falling victim to a charm spell, for instance with well-timed protection from evil.Only in the certain special case scenarios where that would happen. Still, the +2 will save bonus from raging, with Iron Will, will yield saves at this level comparable to the monk. As in, +4 vs +4. (in the above build, though switching the Dex and the Wis on monk will get a +5) Even with the -1 wis penalty. Imagine that. Using a feat to shore up a weakness. Also, charm person will not make the barbarian hate the party. Only like the caster. It does not switch allegiances, only adds a new one.

Well, it doesn't show that the monk is bad. Just that the other class is better at that specific task. In any case, regardless of who that buff's on, the character's in the double digits anyway (though the fighter was already there, with +11 pre-boost). , so the wizard is the one aspect of that that can't change. Some classes are just more proficient at grappling. In this instance? The fighter can do that task best. Barbarian is second. Monk is third. The fighter has the best chance of doin' the dance without the buff tho.

No. Read the monk guide AGAIN (notice that this time I am not saying that you haven't read it at all :smallsmile:). The section monk myths where I show what the monk class does best. And grappling is among that.Yes. Among the things that the monk performs most proficiently is grapple. Other classes just do it better. A barbarian can outperform a monk without the benefit of improved grapple. A fighter has the feats to burn to mimic every advantage the monk has, and then some, with a better BAB, and less dependency on UMD at later levels. I'm familiar with what you wrote. Again, I just find the ideas hopelessly flawed.

Again, I read it fully. I just don't agree with it. Again, I'd appreciate it if you didn't levy that accusation. I find it personally insulting, to be honest.
OK. Although you have to admit that your following rebuttal of my lengthy work left me a bit...disappointed:Your delight at my responses isn't required. Just your common courtesy and civility, thank you.
Plus, you set a not that friendly tone with "disassembly commences" at the start of your post. So I kindly ask you to also tone down a bit. I am dissasembling your ideas to show what they are. Wrong. That's not disparaging against you. It's not a violation of any board policy. It's breaking down your UMB arguments, piece by piece, to reveal each flawed point. No more, no less. I disassembled your POST. I did not imply anything negative about you, other than, perhaps, you posted something that's wrong. Therein lies the difference.

Non-caster classes need melee backup a good portion of the time. That doesn't explain why that melee backup should be the monk. The wizard is at his best when he makes the most out of what's available, whether its terrain, party members, or whatnot. The monk is at his best when the wizard's enhancing him. The difference is the wizard is proactively changing something. The monk is waiting to be changed before he does anything.

Hmmm. You now mean my monk build, do you? Not monks in general (because you seem to also believe monks are on equal footing to the other classes).
Anyhow, you have probably found out about my opinion on whether only wizards help the monk while the monk never is able to help the party wizard.Flawed conclusion based on flawed premise. Disregarded.

I did. Again. I did. My request on this has already been made. I'll leave it at that.

What was that request again?Don't do it?
I hate to sound like a broken record, but you're starting to. With an 18 cha, full level boosts into Cha, and skill focus, you'll get +19 two levels earlier. At level 19. If you want the MW Skill item? Note, that's for craft skills, and other items not listed are by DM approval, since they're not in core.
With a +6 Cha Item, it drops it lower. To level 14. That's about as low as you'll get, but you'll need a 36k item, whose only purpose is to make your disposable items more useful. It will succeed at that. Now you can spend round 1 of combats buffing yourself, while everyone else DOES something.

Ah, please have a look at my build of level 15. Imagine also the Joker using heroism with rod of extension way before combat. Tadaa...level 13. And I have shown already how you can get safe wand usage in combat even at level 9 in case you really need it (normally you would not).
As for the MW skill item, what does the PHB passage "This entry covers just about anything else." tell you? (PHB pp 130-131). Actually Reel on, Love, provided me in fairness with that idea in the first place in an earlier thread - and you can definitely not maintain he likes my wand Joker monk :smallbiggrin:However, there is no item listed in the SRD which provides a +2 bonus to UMD checks. There is one that states the following: Tool, Masterwork

This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used toward the same skill check do not stack.
Again, it does not specifically allow usage with any specific skill. Those have to be allowed in on a case by case basis, by the DM. Thus (MW Item: UMD) is not Core. It's derived from core, but it's not core in and of itself.

No, at some point I feel it's not worth the assets invested for the gain you receive. From what I've listed, the assets expended are:
50% of a 32 point buy's stats.
1 feat (18.3% of feats)
1/6 of the character's class based skill points.
2/3 of attribute boosts up to level 14
36,000 gp

All for the ability to reliably use wands.

Now, let's take a rogue, 14 Cha. (1/6 of class based skill points)
Max ranks in UMD (1/8 of class granted skill points)
1 feat (18.3% of feats)
No Attribute boosts
4,000 gp on a +2 cloak of cha

Achieves +19 UMD at level 10.
With more stats for good dex, good sneak attack, good hide abilities, attribute boosts, WBL for other things, etc.

Yes, the WBL needs the saved WBL for other things go to: dim door ability, save boost, poison proof, move enhancement and some way to escape grappling attacks except the sub-par escape artist way and tough spells.Why need a Dim Door ability? Why need the save boosts or immunity to poison? In some cases, an ounce of cure is better than a pound of prevention. That's, oddly enough, how it works in D&D. As for escape artist? It may be less than perfect, but if it works, then it works. Further, that rogue will likely be BETTER at hiding than the monk. With max ranks in hide and move silently, and a superior dexterity, typically smaller size, and all. This synergizes both with defenses (less need to make saves when not targeted, more ability to get away from a specific grappling enemy after escape artist) and offenses (sneak attack against that enemy in the next round). Those abilities the monk has are nice... But situational. Largely unnecessary.
Less investment, lower level, equal return. This is why it's good. Except the rogue will go for a wand of Reduce person, for extra dex, size to AC, and the like.

Yes, that's what he should do. The monk should use different things that synergise with that class. Each class to its speciality.Precisely. And the monk has not shown a specialty yet. He can, in fairness, be a moderately stealthy, moderately combat capable class... But there's typically not a need for that. In certain specialized groups, where the fighter types take hide/move silently, the rogue does as well, and the casters use spells for stealth? Maybe such a light fighter has a role, that would be more difficult to fulfill with other classes. Maybe. But that is not the typical. It's the exception, wherein the party is built around the rogue.
Sigh. I did. It's just rubbish information, that's all.

OK, I take issue with this one. "Rubbish information". You reprimand me for maintaining that you have not read the guide and you write stuff like that? Wow. Just wow.It is one thing to state that someone's information is faulty. It's another to insinuate that if someone doesn't agree with you, they obviously didn't read what you wrote. Again, my comments are solely directed at the quality of the work you've posted, and are not directed at you in any way. Therein lies the difference. If you take offense to having your work criticized, I'm truly sorry that you feel that way. However, if you don't want your incorrect ideas shown as such, it may be best not to post them so blatantly, and obviously, as incorrect.

Which is? I still fail to see anything that other classes can't do better.

Move. Grapple. Scout. Defense.Maybe. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
Other classes can do grapple better. Other classes can scout better. Other classes can muster greater defenses against the vast majority of attack forms out there, and have superior HP for the ones they don't.
Wrong. Illegal targets fizzle spells. Reread section on "holding a charge". It doesn't mention an illegal target. Any touch will trigger it. Yeah.

Meaning actually that since a wizard at the low level he gets his touch spells will trigger them immediately because he touches the ground. Hmmm. You probably are alone in your interpretation here.
"Touch" actually means "touch attack".Relevant SRD section:If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. Thus, if you actively do anything that brings your skin in contact with anything or anyone, you discharge the spell, by RAW. You may argue interpretations all you like. But if they are not consistent with the above line? They're wrong.


Instead, relying on the wizard to make sure he stays viable, rather than make another party member or area of the battlefield control.

Why do you keep on posting that when the Joker uses UMD outside combat he needs a wizard? Yes, a wizard at one point in the past CREATED the wand, but this is also the case with magic weapons and armour.No. The Giamonk requires the caster for in combat buffs at levels before 13-14.

I'll refer you to the SRD, Monk, skill list, look through several of the Dex and Str based skills. Many do require hands. Not all, certainly, but then, I never claimed that, did I?

Craft - ah, cannot be used with hands full, although it is not exactly a monk's class skill, but almost everyone has it...
Wait, this isn't a monk feature because everyone has it, but UMD is? :smallamused:

That's not whining. Please do not use derogotory terms when referencing me. I find it offensive.

If you cease yours, the peace holds! (no, actually, I'll calm no matter what you post).There's a difference between saying your ideas are bad, and accusing you personally of whining. Again, please refrain from personal attacks. I'll be much more willing to continue proving you wrong if you do, and I'd really rather continue this without reporting anyone's posts. These monk threads get locked because of such comments, and I'd like to not see that happen. K?

I find it odd that the monk requires those expendable items to function, and without them, is behind in many of his strategies. I'm stating that your idea for use of WBL, innovative as it is, is impractical, and not worth the expenditure of assets and resources to make it viable.

Hmmm. Casters have expandable resources/day, and yet no-one would think that is a problem (although in practice it is more often than many would admit).Yes. At the beginning of each day, the caster gets his spells back. When you use that potion of enlarge? That's a few hundred gold down the drain. Forever. Hence, "disposable items". The game makes allowances for disposable items. They're not 100% common sense, but I've compiled those allowances, as they're not printed in any WOTC source, and are, instead, personally derived information.

Stealth, the rogue outperforms.

Nope. The rogue may devote more to DEX (but likely less to WIS for spot/listen), but he lacks the movement enhancement that makes the monk scouting so highly useful.Incorrect. Scouting is generally what sets the pace of the exploration. If the scout moves slower, there is little typical impact, other than a slower expedition. Outside of combat, movement speed is typically less important, as are standard actions. It's only IN combat that the movement advantage comes into play, and there? The monk will still need to capitalize on it.

Though animals and vermin scale for their HD faster than the monk keeps up too.

Yep, but you can have some wand charges with hide from animals and repel vermin for those rare occasions that they turn up.??? That comment was in direct response to how well you said monks perform in a "NO MAGIC WORLD".
I'm not saying that. I'm saying the wizard shows his usefulness for the party by what he, and only he, can do.

I never doubted that a wizard can contribute to a party.But you seemingly take for granted those contributions, and rely on them to the point of dependence for viability.


The monk has yet to show that.

Well, since you apparently believe the monk can keep up, if built in a different way, I am looking forward to your monk guide.Faulty conclusion based on faulty premise. Disregarded.


That's an awfully expensive buff to be rebuying daily.

What makes you think he'll cast an AMF on a daily basis? Silence is enough in most cases.I was referring to "Mind Blank", not AMF.

That's the DM villain concept, not the PC concept. Though the wand of greater heroism + the other resources + the scroll? A LOT of WBL for that 1 use ability. And I won't get into AMF = win. There are too many variables to predict such a thing.

Around 1,740 gp per usage.So, every time you need an AMF, you're going to permanently spend close to 2k gp to get it?
I never stated anything of the sort. I'm showing that, if the buffs are so necessary as to justify devoting massive assets to it, a cost effective way to ensure you receive it is to allow the wizard to help you at little cost to himself. More cost effective, and accomplishes the same goal. Still, again, this is better performed by other classes, and the only thing needed is the caster.

Which is a longer way of stating what I said, thanks. "The only thing needed is the caster." means exactly what I wrote. You basically advise going away from the UMD idea and go exclusively to the pc caster for help, at which point you would say "joker relies on caster". Nice try.:smallsmile:When the caster is needed, you rely on it. That shows that your idea is dependent. I advise that UMD is too cost ineffective for parity. I advise that relying on a caster will achieve that in a more cost effective manner, but will make you reliant on that class, and is thus not a measure of the monk's parity. They are not mutually contradictory.


Points made above for that.And, as I outlined, your numbers are off. The bit by bit amount is not difficult to track. I did it for levels 1-20 in 5 minutes. Applies equally to all classes. Multiply the average wealth gained per encounter by 14. From that, subtract (WBL of higher level - WBL of lower level.) That's your disposable WBL, or the amount the game expects you to spend when you adventure. Spending more puts you under WBL. By dismissing it as overly complicated, you fail to take into account that it is correct, and it directly refutes your numbers.

Hmmm. Let us see. 1000 first level spells by level 10. This is 140 encounters, according to your calculations. Meaning 140 Enlarges can be cast.
That leaves plenty of usages for other occasions, or multiple buffs for one encounter (say, a shield wand on top of the enlarge...). Or higher level wand buffs like silence and heroism.
And this does not even count that at low levels, some encounters are also traps which the joker monk can survive/trigger quite well, without any buffs.Again, look at the end of this guide for a listing refuting this.

Any action wasted in combat? Wasted. If you're restricting yourself to out of combat only?

Yes, but I posted in this post, previous posts and the original guide the great many things you can do already outside combat.But you also posted spells and actions which have durations so short as to be in combat only buffs, with a wave and a dismissal of "use it in a wand". That is the point that is incorrect. The enlarge persons and such. Not the Water breathing.

Don't count on Enlarge Person before level 14.

With potions, I can.I'll point that one out also, at the end.

Wrong. If the Fighter buys a +1 sword, and hits 50 things with it, it's still worth 2300 gp and change.Absolutely no disposable income lost.

Yes, but both characters will have cleared their encounters and contributed. It does not matter if at the end of the adventuring life, the character can hang the sword +1 on the wall or an empty wand.What does matter is that when the fighter upgrades that sword, he has 2000 gp already invested to contribute. When the monk needs enlarge, he has no permanent benefit.

If a monk buys a wand of enlarge, and over 4 levels, uses it, he's out 750gp of disposable wealth.

Yes. Your point being?Getting to that.

This is why you're wrong. You fail to grasp that you'll use your WBL faster than the core rules expect you to, putting you behind the curve for WBL at upper levels.

No, you still fail to see how much can be done already with level 1 wands.Wait for it... Wait for it...

Because, by your bolded text in my initial post, UMD is a key feature of the class. For brevity, and time, I restricted myself to that. Not because I didn't read it.

Maybe you wish to comment on the other 95%?I have neither the time nor the inclination. I'll restrict myself to WBL disparity and UMD usefulness, as they are the two most core flaws in your build.



WBL AND DISPOSABLE INCOME

The game provides for PC's to have certain amounts of wealth at certain levels. This is "Wealth by level", or WBL. It achieves this by granting an average amount of awarded treasure per encounter.

Listings for both of these are found on DMG, p.135, and DMG, p.51.

When you take the average amount of treasure per encounter, and divide it by 4, you get the amount of treasure that each party member should make in that encounter, per level.

In D&D, the experience table is scaled so that 14 even CR encounters will get you a level.

Thus, taking the information on Table 3-3 (DMG, p.51) and dividing it by 4 (for party division), then multiplying by 14 (for all the encounters in the character level), you get the total amount a PC should earn in that level, on average.

But that's greater than the current wealth of the PC + wealth gained. It puts a PC above WBL. This is intentional. The designers put in extra earnings to reflect the use of items that are disposable. These items are used, and then are no more, such as wands, potions, scrolls, food, poisons, alchemical items, and the like.

The table I derived for monk (class only matters at level 1, where starting gold is different) is thus:
{table=header] Level/Next Level | Gold allocated for Disposable items
1 to 2 | 162.5
2 to 3 | 300
3 to 4 | 450
4 to 5 | 600
5 to 6 | 1,600
6 to 7 | 1,000
7 to 8 | 1,100
8 to 9 | 2,900
9 to 10 | 2,750
10 to 11 | 3,300
11 to 12 | 4,250
12 to 13 | 12,300
13 to 14 | 5,500
14 to 15 | 9,500
15 to 16 | 17,000
16 to 17 | 18,000
17 to 18 | 26,000
18 to 19 | 24,500
19 to 20 | 100,000[/table]

Costs for items per level (assuming used 1 time in each encounter):
Potion (50gp) - 700gp
Potion (250gp - Enlarge Person) - 3,500gp
Wand (750gp) - 210gp (cost per item reaches DMG advised 25% total WBL at level 4, first obtainable with 83.3% WBL at level 2)
Wand (11,250, or level 3 spell, such as heroism) - 3,150 gp

Thus, the first level that you could reliably use a standard 50gp potion once an encounter, and not fall behind WBL, is level 5.

The first level you could reliably use Enlarge Person potions? Level 11.

The first level you could use a level 1, 750gp wand? By disposable income, level 2. By DMG advised WBL guidelines, level 4. First time viable in combat? Well, without heroism, level 13-14, depending on who you ask.

First time the Level 3 heroism spell is viable in a wand? Level 10, and it'll use so much WBL, you won't have enough left over for a level 1 wand without falling behind. Level 11 gets you the ability to use it and afford wands, without falling behind.

Thus, we can conclude that potions, which use a combat action, are not viable to make a character combat effectiveness until almost the level you could attain reliable UMD use with wands, as a monk. Wands are more cost effective, but are not reliable until level 11, at the earliest, unless you want to fall behind the WBL curve... And that's with heroism correctly guessed before every enounter (with a 30 minute duration, it's a bit rough to get perfect). Without that, you're mitigating the effectiveness of your actions, with actions that are not even sure to be taken, much less successful.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm wondering myself - the Giamonk apparently always gets a surprise round against enemies with lower initiative, and can Hide and wait till enemies buffs wear off.

Where did the Giamonk get Hide in Plain Sight? Plenty of battles take place where there's nothing to hide in or behind.

[Eldariel]

Incorrect. Scouting is generally what sets the pace of the exploration. If the scout moves slower, there is little typical impact, other than a slower expedition. Outside of combat, movement speed is typically less important, as are standard actions. It's only IN combat that the movement advantage comes into play, and there? The monk will still need to capitalize on it.

I'd just like to add to this: the fact that Rogue has Search and Disable Device as class skills means he can actually scout ahead without dying to a trap. Monk has no such luxury. "Wops, I just collapsed this cave on myself!" "Wops, I just ate Symbol of Insanity!" "Wops, I just sounded the alarm!" "Wops, I just locked the rest of the party out of this dungeon...and myself in!" Seriously, when scouting, you don't want things like those to happen. If you don't have at least Search and Trapfinding, you don't go scouting. It's simply not smart. Also, not having maxed Dex is a bummer.

[EvilElitest]

OK, giant mega post, nothing more needs saying
from
EE

[Azerian Kelimon]

OK, giant mega post, nothing more needs saying
from
EE

My thoughts precisely.

[EvilElitest]

My thoughts precisely.

Through my boxing idea has its merits
from
EE

[Signmaker]

I'm wondering myself - the Giamonk apparently always gets a surprise round against enemies with lower initiative, and can Hide and wait till enemies buffs wear off.

Where did the Giamonk get Hide in Plain Sight? Plenty of battles take place where there's nothing to hide in or behind.

Realistically, most battles feature some form of cover somewhere.
However, at times the cover is somewhat obvious. See "How Not to Be Seen" in the Monty Python's Handbook.

You do bring up a good point. H/MSing isn't always a valid option, especially in featureless dungeons, dragon caves, open plains, etc.

I'd prefer Gia not say that a monk scouts better, when the rogue has more skill points due to class and int, and when the rogue also has the benefit of using wealth towards improving H/MSing where the monk is spending wealth for rods/scrolls/potions geared towards combat viability. Now, monks can easily spend the same amount of wealth towards getting the same H/MS improving items, but as Talic has proved time and time again, wands and potions are COSTLY. Even a 20-charge wand (I refuse to believe that anyone would want to sell off a 3 or 4 charge wand. Perfect waste of a good magic item.Therefore, don't expect to be able to buy them. Even 10/50 is stretching it) is expensive at lower WBLs, and become increasingly so as you get the higher level spells, such as (recommended by OP) Holy Sword.

[Bassetking]

You appear not to have changed your opinion one iota since, it appears. New evidence is piled up in front of you? Ignore mode, that's the way to do things...

- Giacomo
...


...


AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA HA

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA H

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

For serious, dude? For the reals?

Oh man, I needed that.

Shine on, you crazy diamond.

[Rutee]

You broke the frames..

[EvilElitest]

You broke the frames..

and his sides it seems
from
EE

[Signmaker]

Stretching the page? That's kind of overboard.

[Azerian Kelimon]

...


...


AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA HA

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA H

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

For serious, dude? For the reals?

Oh man, I needed that.

Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Basset, I take offense there. Giacomo doesn't even come close to that magnum opus of prog. You can mess with 2112, supper's ready, Thick as a brick, but not SOYCD.

[Bassetking]

Basset, I take offense there. Giacomo doesn't even come close to that magnum opus of prog. You can mess with 2112, supper's ready, Thick as a brick, but not SOYCD.

Well Az, I'm a modern day warrior.

I get high on you,

And the energy you trade,

I get right on to the friction of the day.

[Darth Mario]

Talic, you are either one of the smartest people on the playground, or maybe just the one with the most free time. Either way, that was brilliant.

I eagerly await Giacomo's response.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Well Az, I'm a modern day warrior.

I get high on you,

And the energy you trade,

I get right on to the friction of the day.

You have some mean mean pride there. You have to tone it down, maybe take your children home or eye some girls with intent, because those ideas are all just a fantasy. You should laugh no more, too.

PS: Wow. A five way prog pun. Why do my wits insist on spilling away like that instead of helping me found my VG company? It's a true torment, that.

[Collin152]

I can't help but notice that the "Great Posters of the Gaming Forums" excludes me.
You can't have planeteers without token minorities!
Let our powers combine!
Rainbow!

[Solo]

Collin, you're here! Simply fabulous!

[Collin152]

Collin, you're here! Simply fabulous!

Fabulous doesn't even begin to describe it dear.
Oh, I wouldn't miss a monk thread for the world, darling!
Sure, I may be... slothful in my approach, but as the moon invariably becomes full again, I always turn up sooner or later!

[Talic]

I can't help but notice that the "Great Posters of the Gaming Forums" excludes me.
You can't have planeteers without token minorities!
Let our powers combine!
Rainbow!

There's a list!?

I must have missed the staff meeting.

[Azerian Kelimon]

There's a list!?

I must have missed the staff meeting.

Actually, just about every reknowned poster has posted here, short of Dervag, Indon, and the mods.

The real question is: How the HELL did I sneak in here?

[Collin152]

There's a list!?

I must have missed the staff meeting.

Ah, t'was earlier in the thread.
It includes The Black Mage and Napolean, and a few others.

[SCPRedMage]

Good stuff, just one little thing...

getting a mount that will move/charge for you. As a bonus, you get its attacks (if trained for combat) and you get +1 on the attacking roll for higher ground.

If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can make only a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can’t make a full attack.
You could take a move action and a standard action while your mount moves, but a full attack action is right out.

[quiet1mi]

alright guys... i don't feel like reading this colossal thing because my attention span can not grapple it...

I'm going to list some strengths that we can all agree on and you guys shoot down my list

they are fast (especially with the run feat and later levels)
they can carry a lot of stuff (rarely do they have stuff to carry)
they make good flanking buddies because they can travel from person to person
they can become immune to poisons and diseases

with the list so far we can agree they make for good mounts transporters

[Talic]

Good stuff, just one little thing...


You could take a move action and a standard action while your mount moves, but a full attack action is right out.

Actually, provided your attacks are ranged, full attacks while mounted are perfectly ok. It's melee attacks that are restricted to one per round.

[Andras]

I would like to break my usual habit of lurking these fine boards for the purpose of saying, wow. If I hadn't seen threads like this before, I would swear Sir Giacomo was simply trolling the forum, and doing so quite effectively. As it stands, this is one of the most ineffective guides at making a viable monk that I've ever seen, if not the most. The fact that this has leapt to 14 pages of replies after about 1 day seems to agree with this.

I applaud your seeming sincerity and definite persistence, Sir Giacomo, but it appears that you are highly, highly outclassed (no pun intended) by the more notable posters of the board, as the past 14 pages have generally suggested.

And now, back to my regularly scheduled lurking. :smallwink:

[Cuddly]

Kudos, G, for putting together a viable monk build.

It's unfortunate it has to be so convoluted- I'd rather play a multiclass artificer if I was going to dink around with all that UMD.

[Talic]

The build is no more viable than any other flawed concept that's been posted. The unviability is just a bit more subtle, as he breaks the WBL system in a less easily noticed way.

[SCPRedMage]

Actually, provided your attacks are ranged, full attacks while mounted are perfectly ok. It's melee attacks that are restricted to one per round.
We're talking about monks. Ranged attacks are largely irrelevant to them.

[lord_khaine]

Yes. Among the things that the monk performs most proficiently is grapple. Other classes just do it better. A barbarian can outperform a monk without the benefit of improved grapple. A fighter has the feats to burn to mimic every advantage the monk has, and then some, with a better BAB, and less dependency on UMD at later levels. I'm familiar with what you wrote. Again, I just find the ideas hopelessly flawed.

this is a claim that has beem dragget out allmost as many times as we have seen monk posts, yet i have yet to see anything besides that other classes can get a higher grapple bonus, but thats not all there is to grappling.


Maybe. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
Other classes can do grapple better. Other classes can scout better. Other classes can muster greater defenses against the vast majority of attack forms out there, and have superior HP for the ones they don't

if a class could muster 80% of the fighting power a barbarian has, with 80% of a wizards spellcasting power and 80% of a rogues skillpoints, would you then call it useless?


When you use that potion of enlarge? That's a few hundred gold down the drain
as i recall a potion of enlarge should only cost 50 gold.

[Solo]

Actually, just about every reknowned poster has posted here, short of Dervag, Indon, and the mods.
CoV isn't present, due to his Internet being broken.



The real question is: How the HELL did I sneak in here?
Our bouncer budget was embezzled.

[Talic]

We're talking about monks. Ranged attacks are largely irrelevant to them.

Monks include proficiency with the following ranged weaponry:

Crossbow, Dagger, Javelin, Shuriken, Sling.

Of these, the Shuriken can be flurried with, and the others can all be made to fire at full speed (the crossbow, via rapid reload). With Far Shot, and a 20 ft ranged increment on shurikens, a mok on horseback could be quite annoying at low levels.

With Javelins, the monk can use a bit of ranged in with the melee (I like this option myself).

This still means it's a bit subpar, but it's possible, at least, and will likely perform at longer ranges as well as the rogue, in such situations.

[Turcano]

if a class could muster 80% of the fighting power a barbarian has, with 80% of a wizards spellcasting power and 80% of a rogues skillpoints, would you then call it useless?

Well, that's basically a bard. Does that answer your question? :smalltongue:

[Talic]

How about 75% of a fighter's fighting power, with none of a wizard's casting ability, and 75% of the rogue's skill points?

That's a bit more accurate, as far as class granted abilities... A rogue has a greater claim to UMD as a portion of a wizard's casting power, though the best UMD will ever achieve is around 20% of a wizard's potential. This is because prices scale up exponentially on magic items, and DC's for all but the most expensive items (Staffs), are at the minimum required. Scrolls, potions, wands, all use the minimum stat required to successfully cast the spell. That wand of fireball, regardless of caster level, will be a DC 14 save for half (min int to cast fireball is 13, spell level is 3). This makes offensive magic, the primary bread and butter of wizards, next to useless. The wand wielder will be best served by putting spells that require attack rolls, and don't allow saves, into the wand (Lesser Orbs, Scorching Ray, etc), on offense, and this limits offensive potential to horribly low. The other downside to this is that Wands and potions have a low level limit. Scrolls get around this limitation, but are expensive enough, and bulky enough, to generally preclude carrying too many... At least, enough to match a decent percentage of a wizard's power.

To sum up: Monks, through UMD, have decent access to about 40% of a wizard's arsenal (the weakest 40%), if optimized heavily towards it, by level 13-14, on average. They will have highly limited access (remember, scroll DC goes up much higher, and much faster, than wands... even a level 1 scroll is more difficult to UMD than a wand) to higher level magic through scrolls, requiring DC 29 for level 5 spells, DC 31 for level 6, DC 33 for level 7, DC 35 for level 8, and DC 37 for level 9 spells. This means that, with a +23 modifier at level 17, they will have under a 50% chance to activate any scroll over level 7. They will have a 100% chance of activating only a level 2 or lower scroll.

Hardly "80%".

[Solo]

Well, that's basically a bard. Does that answer your question? :smalltongue:

Are you calling the bard useless? Be wary, lest a naughty ballad featuring your person find its way to the nearest tavern!

That being said, bards do it without having to spend exorbitant amounts of resources and have UMD as a class skill.

[Griffin131]

this is a claim that has beem dragget out allmost as many times as we have seen monk posts, yet i have yet to see anything besides that other classes can get a higher grapple bonus, but thats not all there is to grappling.

Fighter 10
STR 16 DEX 16 CON 12 INT 13 WIS 13 CHR 8
Feats: Imp. Unarmed Strike, Imp. Grapple, Imp. Initiative, Magical Aptitude, Combat Reflexes, Skill Focus - UMD, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Blindfight, Two-Weapon fighting, Power Attack
Skills: UMD - 6.5 ranks, +2 from MW item, +5 from feats, +3 Circlet of Persuasion (16 total) [Gia, your level 10 monk is wrong - you list a 15 UMD, its a 16) Jump - 13 ranks, +2 for MW item, +3 str, -6 speed (12 total) Climb - 13 ranks, +2 for MW itme, +3 str (18 total)
ITEMS:
Circlet of Persuasion (4500)
MW Items for Above (300)
Cloak of Resistance +3 (9000)
Eversmoking Bottle (5400)
Masterwork Greatsword (350)
Masterwork Armor Spikes on a Masterwork Breastplate (700)
Masterwork Longbow (375)
14 Potions of Enlarge (700)
Leftover for Wands/sundries: 27675
Initiative: +7
Move: 20 ft.
AC: 18 (Plus Mage Armor, making it 22)
Hit Points: 70
Saves: Fort: +13, Ref: +9, Will: +7
Grapple: +17 (+17,+12), Enlarged +22 (+22,+17)
Greatsword: +14 (+14,+9) -- +12 (+12,+7) if including Armor Spikes -- Damage: 2d6+3
Armor Spikes: +12 Damage: 1d6+3

So a Fighter does the whole Grapple/UMD thing about as good as you. You're (far) faster, but I can get 80 feet in a round if I need to (with no attack at thend, however). I have a better chance to hit things in a grapple (IE if you and I were grappling, you would need a 12+ to hit for 3d8+4 damage (twice, then an 17+ to hit) if I didnt pin you (which, with my higher grapple check, I would). I would need a 11+ and a 16+ for 1d6+3 damage. We have the exact same chances on UMD stuff, so its a wash there. Isnt that all thats to your build theory - Grapple + UMD?

BTW this post took me ~20 minutes to write. I guarantee it could be optomized more.

[Solo]

Could someone please elaborate for on how to make the most of these abilities? I didn't find the portion devoted to them in the guide.

Whole Body: You replicate a few healing potions. Whup de doo.

Tongue of Sun and Moon: You talk to Pocahontas, and all her little woodland friends. Amazing!

Purity of Body: You are immune to all diseases...except for the magical and supernatural kind. Congratulations, you've just defeated the common cold and won against AIDS. And as we all know, mundane diseases are a common threat to players in DnD campaigns.

Quivering Palm: Once a week fort based save or die... except against constructs, oozes, plants, undead, and incorporeal creatures. Even less effective if you don't have a high Wis. modifier due to having to spend points on Strength and Con to survive at fighting, and Dex for AC and stealth.

[Gorbash]

Solo, please no more. While I do find your comments hilarious, you know Giacomo will just dismiss them despite them being very logical. Seriously, this is like trying to explain microeconomy to a 5 year old. Or laws of gravity to a wall. If 99.9% posters of 2 DnD forums weren't able to convince him that he's wrong, just drop the issue.

[Jack Mann]

What, when we're having so much fun?

[Telonius]

Sorry to bring up the Blinking issue again, but something is really striking me as wrong about it. And not just for the monk's speed.

So, you have a Ring of Blinking, so are spending half your time on the Ethereal plane.

How does that work, if you're trying to grapple something? Normally, I've seen people use Blinking to avoid being grappled by something, not the other way around. (EDIT: Mostly, this is a Rogue item, because it allows them to strike all foes as though they were ethereal. That is, you get sneak attack always, all the time, unless the creature type specifically says you can't. And *generally* Rogues have a hard time with Grapple checks - they typically expend their resources on ways to get out of grapple, rather than winning grapple). By RAW, it just means that 1/5 of your attacks happen when you're in the ethereal plane. But something just doesn't seem right about something that isn't actually there half the time, trying to hold someone down and injure them. Not that this would be the first time that RAW doesn't make sense, but does this seem odd to anyone else?

Also, this:

Your own spells have a 20% chance to activate just as you go ethereal, in which case they typically do not affect the Material Plane.


Would this mean that on those occasions that you actually manage to read off a scroll correctly, you have a 1 in 5 chance of it not going off anyway? A good chunk of this build is predicated on UMD. If you're not able to use that 20% of the time, you should probably just nix the ring and buy something else. Perhaps a Ring of Force Shield, Invisibility, or Jumping?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Could someone please elaborate for on how to make the most of these abilities? I didn't find the portion devoted to them in the guide.

Whole Body: You replicate a few healing potions. Whup de doo.

Tongue of Sun and Moon: You talk to Pocahontas, and all her little woodland friends. Amazing!

Purity of Body: You are immune to all diseases...except for the magical and supernatural kind. Congratulations, you've just defeated the common cold and won against AIDS. And as we all know, mundane diseases are a common threat to players in DnD campaigns.

Quivering Palm: Once a week fort based save or die... except against constructs, oozes, plants, undead, and incorporeal creatures. Even less effective if you don't have a high Wis. modifier due to having to spend points on Strength and Con to survive at fighting, and Dex for AC and stealth.

PLEASE. We all know the job monks have is to be whores. Think of it, Flurry of Blows, Tongue of the sun and moon.

Not to mention their class features, Greater Suck, Superior Suck, Endless Suck, and Earth Shattering Suck.

[Gorbash]

PLEASE. We all know the job monks have is to be whores. Think of it, Flurry of Blows, Tongue of the sun and moon.

Omg, I haven't laughed this much in some time lol... Priceless. Just priceless. :smallbiggrin:

[Draz74]

Actually, just about every reknowned poster has posted here, short of Dervag, Indon, and the mods.

:smallconfused::smallconfused::smallconfused:

Ah, the tunnel vision of those who have only been on the Forum for 8 months ...

I've been here long enough that it doesn't seem like anywhere close to all the renowned posters have joined in this thread. Maybe it's most of the renowned posters who have been active in the last 6 months ...

... oh wait, even then, you'd at least have to add Fax Celestes to your "missing list" ...

But wow. I remember so many more "forum leading posters" in the time I've been here. Crazy how internet communities work ...

[EvilElitest]

Ah, t'was earlier in the thread.
It includes The Black Mage and Napolean, and a few others.

We should make a list of all of the Great Posters, each with their own unique title
from
EE

[Eldariel]

Solo, please no more. While I do find your comments hilarious, you know Giacomo will just dismiss them despite them being very logical. Seriously, this is like trying to explain microeconomy to a 5 year old. Or laws of gravity to a wall. If 99.9% posters of 2 DnD forums weren't able to convince him that he's wrong, just drop the issue.

You misunderstand. The reason Sir G tries to dismiss them is specifically because they're logical. Logic is an enemy to be defeated. It seems to me the guide embraces this ideal.

[EvilElitest]

Our bouncer budget was embezzled.



look i'm sorry ok, stop bringing it up
from
EE

[Aquillion]

Could someone please elaborate for on how to make the most of these abilities? I didn't find the portion devoted to them in the guide.

Whole Body: You replicate a few healing potions. Whup de doo.

Tongue of Sun and Moon: You talk to Pocahontas, and all her little woodland friends. Amazing!

Purity of Body: You are immune to all diseases...except for the magical and supernatural kind. Congratulations, you've just defeated the common cold and won against AIDS. And as we all know, mundane diseases are a common threat to players in DnD campaigns.

Quivering Palm: Once a week fort based save or die... except against constructs, oozes, plants, undead, and incorporeal creatures. Even less effective if you don't have a high Wis. modifier due to having to spend points on Strength and Con to survive at fighting, and Dex for AC and stealth.You're forgetting: Those are just fringe benefits, making an already-strong class even better. Sure, it just gives them a handful of extra things to do, but a monk gets all of that in addition to UMD!

And they could come up in lots of cases. Suppose you have diseased zombie you need to kill, and you don't have a Paladin, or Cleric, or Druid, or Wizard, or any potions of remove disease. Or any ranged or reach weapons, or classes with ranged attacks, and no armor. And no fighters or Barbarians or any other class with a good fort save. And you're in an anti-magic field and won't be able to travel to town to get the disease cured. And also you have no food, so eating the zombie is the only way to survive.

You'll be glad you brought a Monk then, won't you?

What if you're captured and stripped naked by primitive tribespeople, have no Paladin and no Druid, your wizard has no spells without material components, your Fighter and Barbarian are not specialized in unarmed combat, and the primitive tribespeople then beat you within an inch of your life before telling you that you will be instantly executed if you can't show the favor of their deity by healing the wounds they just gave you?

And what if you have no clerics, druids, sorcerers, wizards, or psions, and no rangers with any ranks in survival, and no rogues or bards with gather information, and the only witness who saw which way the BBEG ran was a bird? What then?

What if your party is hired to kill a sickly old level 1 aristocrat, but you're hired to kill him at a specific time, in six days, during this big ball when he'll be hard to reach, and you have to be on the other side of the world then anyway (and also you have no wizards or sorcerers capable of casting Greater Teleport)? And it just so happens that this sickly old aristocrat likes to hold "punch me in the face" parties where people run up and randomly punch him in the face (just not at the time when you're supposed to kill him?) Quivering Palm looks real nice then, doesn't it, smart guy?

[Talic]

this is a claim that has beem dragget out allmost as many times as we have seen monk posts, yet i have yet to see anything besides that other classes can get a higher grapple bonus, but thats not all there is to grappling.Then let me explain to you the impact that grapple modifiers have on grapples.


{table=header]Advantage | Odds of higher mod winning | Odds of lower mod losing | Odds Ratio
Even | 50% | 50% | 1 to 1
+1 | 57.25% | 42.25% | 1.36 to 1
+2 | 61.75% | 38.25% | 1.61 to 1
+3 | 66% | 34% | 1.94 to 1
+4 | 70% | 30% | 2.33 to 1
+5 | 73.75% | 26.25% | 2.81 to 1
+6 | 77.75% | 22.25% | 3.49 to 1
+7 | 80.5% | 19.5% | 4.13 to 1
+8 | 83.25% | 16.75% | 4.97 to 1
+9 | 85.75% | 14.25% | 6.02 to 1
+10 | 88.75% | 11.25% | 7.89 to 1[/table]

This will hopefully show the importance of the higher modifier, when the higher modifier wins ties. If the higher mod has even a +2 higher modifier than you, you'll need 3 attacks to his 2 (a bit more, actually, 3.2) to succeed the same total number of grapple checks. You need more than double the attacks to win equally at modifier +4. At mod +7? More than quadruple. This is why having the higher modifier is so important. At mid to high levels, the monster will almost always have the higher grapple modifier. Sometimes by well over 10. So yes, that modifier is essential. Very essential.

On a side note...
Next myth: Flurry and Grapple:

When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.
By strict RAW (and this is supported through FAQ as well) the only thing that can get you more than one attack in a round is Base Attack Bonus. Haste Weapons? No. Two Weapon fighting? No. Multiple natural weapons? No. Flurry of blows (which uses the Flurry attack bonus, not the base attack bonus)? No. Thus, by RAW, the monk will never, in his entire career as a monk, have more actions in a grapple than a Fighter. Nor will he be able to pin in one round before level 8.


if a class could muster 80% of the fighting power a barbarian has, with 80% of a wizards spellcasting power and 80% of a rogues skillpoints, would you then call it useless?No, I'd call it a bard.


as i recall a potion of enlarge should only cost 50 gold.Read your SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/potionsAndOils.htm). Enlarge Person goes for 250 a pop. If you're looking to use it seriously at a level, you'll need 14 (one for each encounter, if you need it for your grappling argument). 250gp x 14 = 3,500 gp per level to keep stocked in Enlarge persons for each fight. Next?

[SamTheCleric]

Hmm.. Level 20 Expert. Balance, Climb, Jump, Decipher Script, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device, Hide and Move Silently as Class Skills.

+2 Int.
+3 Cha.

23 [ranks] + 3 [Cha] + 3 [Skill Focus] + 2 [Magical Aptitude] + 2 [Synergy] + 2 [Synergy] = +35 Use Magic Device with scrolls. Scrolls of time stop that I can us by rolling a 2 or higher.

Skill Focus (UMD), Magical Aptitude, Improved Unarmed Strike. Magically enchanced gauntlets. Magic light armor. Butt load of wands and scrolls.

Almost identical to Giamonk... as an Expert. :smallsmile:

[Illiterate Scribe]

Read your SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/potionsAndOils.htm). Enlarge Person goes for 250 a pop. If you're looking to use it seriously at a level, you'll need 14 (one for each encounter, if you need it for your grappling argument). 250gp x 14 = 3,500 gp per level to keep stocked in Enlarge persons for each fight. Next?

To be fair, that's almost certainly an error held over from 3.0, like Sovereign Glue requiring CL 20 to make.

If you're ruling that table trumps text, then you've opened the way for all sorts of nightmares with Rainbow Servants, etc.

[Solo]

Or any ranged or reach weapons, or classes with ranged attacks, and no armor.
Nonsense! Monks have crossbow proficiencies (1d8 damage per round!) and shuriken that they can flury with (multiple 1d2 damage weapons ftw!) plusgood armor class because of their dexterity and wisdom modifiers!


And no fighters or Barbarians or any other class with a good fort save.
Nonsense! Monks have good fortitude saves because they have a good progression and a healthy constitution score


You'll be glad you brought a Monk then, won't you?
To eat.



What if your party is hired to kill a sickly old level 1 aristocrat, but you're hired to kill him at a specific time, in six days

Don't you mean in seven days?

[SCPRedMage]

Monks include proficiency with the following ranged weaponry:

Crossbow, Dagger, Javelin, Shuriken, Sling.

Of these, the Shuriken can be flurried with, and the others can all be made to fire at full speed (the crossbow, via rapid reload). With Far Shot, and a 20 ft ranged increment on shurikens, a mok on horseback could be quite annoying at low levels.

With Javelins, the monk can use a bit of ranged in with the melee (I like this option myself).

This still means it's a bit subpar, but it's possible, at least, and will likely perform at longer ranges as well as the rogue, in such situations.
And yet, ignoring that flurry of blows works with shuriken, all of a monk's class features and bonus feats are for MELEE combat. Monks are melee fighters, pure and simple, so the Rules Compendium quote I brought up was appropriate.

[Talic]

To be fair, that's almost certainly an error held over from 3.0, like Sovereign Glue requiring CL 20 to make.

If you're ruling that table trumps text, then you've opened the way for all sorts of nightmares with Rainbow Servants, etc.

Table trumps what text?

The text in the Creating magic items guidelines and estimates? Those are not hard and fast rules. They are guidelines for the estimation of values of magic items. Does the text for calculating the cost of a ring of invisibility trump the listed cost of the invisibility? No. Because while text trumps table, Rule trumps guideline, and hard figure trumps estimate.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Table trumps what text?

The text in the Creating magic items guidelines and estimates? Those are not hard and fast rules. They are guidelines for the estimation of values of magic items. Does the text for calculating the cost of a ring of invisibility trump the listed cost of the invisibility? No. Because while text trumps table, Rule trumps guideline, and hard figure trumps estimate.

Yes, but this is quite clearly an error from 3.0, where the expansion rules meant that you had to have the spell at CL 5 for it to work, or you'd not get your large size. Sure, it's RAW - but it's as valid as any other loophole, that is technically RAW. Like H.I.V.E.s. Or ultra-tainted spellcasters.

[Solo]

You know, Talic did include the alternative price for a potion of Enlarge Person in his calculations about disposable items and WBL.

[SamTheCleric]

A Challenger Appears!

Cassandra Cain
Medium Humanoid (Human) Level 20 Expert
Hit Dice: 20d6+20 (90 hp)
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 26 (+2 Dex, +9 [+3 Mithral Breastplate], +1 Two Weapon Defense, +3 Ring of Protection)
Base Attack/Grapple: 15/22
Attack: +19 melee +1 Anarchic Frost Spell-Storing* Gauntlet (1d3+4+1d6[cold]+2d6[chaotic]) or +19 melee +1 Anarchic Shock Spell-Storing* Gauntlet (1d3+4+1d6[shock]+2d6[chaotic])
Full Attack: +17/+12/+7 melee +1 Anarchic Frost Spell-Storing* Gauntlet (1d3+4+1d6[cold]+2d6[chaotic]) and +17/+12/+7 +17 melee +1 Anarchic Shock Spell-Storing* Gauntlet (1d3+2+1d6[shock]+2d6[chaotic])
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Special Qualities: None
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +11, Will +15
Abilities: Str 17 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 14
Skills: Use Magic Device +38, Decipher Script +12, Spellcraft +12, Hide +25, Move Silently +25, Balance +25, Jump +26, Tumble +27, Spot +23, Listen +23
Feats: Skill Focus [Use Magic Device], Magical Aptitude, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Defense
Alignment: Always Neutral

Purchases Thus Far:

+1 Anarchic Frost Spell-Storing* Gauntlet (*Vampiric Touch, 6th Caster Level [3d6])
+1 Anarchic Shock Spell-Storing* Gauntlet (*Inflict Serious Wounds, 6th Caster Level [3d8+6, will save for half])
+3 Mithral Breastplate
+3 Ring of Protection
+3 Cloak of Resistance

[marjan]

Would this mean that on those occasions that you actually manage to read off a scroll correctly, you have a 1 in 5 chance of it not going off anyway? A good chunk of this build is predicated on UMD. If you're not able to use that 20% of the time, you should probably just nix the ring and buy something else. Perhaps a Ring of Force Shield, Invisibility, or Jumping?

If I understood correctly Sir Giacomo he only uses buffs from wands and scrolls so while it wouldn't affect material plane it would affect him while he is on the ethereal plane, so there is no problem with that.

[lord_khaine]

To sum up: Monks, through UMD, have decent access to about 40% of a wizard's arsenal (the weakest 40%), if optimized heavily towards it, by level 13-14, on average. They will have highly limited access (remember, scroll DC goes up much higher, and much faster, than wands... even a level 1 scroll is more difficult to UMD than a wand) to higher level magic through scrolls, requiring DC 29 for level 5 spells, DC 31 for level 6, DC 33 for level 7, DC 35 for level 8, and DC 37 for level 9 spells. This means that, with a +23 modifier at level 17, they will have under a 50% chance to activate any scroll over level 7. They will have a 100% chance of activating only a level 2 or lower scroll.

Hardly "80%".

that was an example to explain why i thought it was a flawed idea when you claimed monks were a bad class, just because other classes did some thing better than them.


So a Fighter does the whole Grapple/UMD thing about as good as you. You're (far) faster, but I can get 80 feet in a round if I need to (with no attack at thend, however). I have a better chance to hit things in a grapple (IE if you and I were grappling, you would need a 12+ to hit for 3d8+4 damage (twice, then an 17+ to hit) if I didnt pin you (which, with my higher grapple check, I would). I would need a 11+ and a 16+ for 1d6+3 damage. We have the exact same chances on UMD stuff, so its a wash there. Isnt that all thats to your build theory - Grapple + UMD?

im really disapointet about this question, for it shows you hasnt really paid any attention to my posts at all, Gia is the one who uses UMD, not me.
a movement speed of 20 is really bad, compared to the monk who has 50 at this level, and is able to charge 100 and still deliver an attack at the end.

that aside, in the grapple, then im pretty sure my monk would win, when we start to considder that the monk would do 17.5 with each grapple check, compared to yours 6.5, and also the monk has 2 attacks at full bonus, thats a very big advantage thats often forgotten.

besides those think the monk would also have 2 more skillpoints per level, and a much better list of class skills, as well as improved evasion and better saves. if that makes him better than the fighter is a matter of oppinion.


By strict RAW (and this is supported through FAQ as well) the only thing that can get you more than one attack in a round is Base Attack Bonus. Haste Weapons? No. Two Weapon fighting? No. Multiple natural weapons? No. Flurry of blows (which uses the Flurry attack bonus, not the base attack bonus)? No. Thus, by RAW, the monk will never, in his entire career as a monk, have more actions in a grapple than a Fighter. Nor will he be able to pin in one round before level 8.

actualy, its specificly mentioned in the FAQ, that the monk is able to use his flurry of blows attacks to grapple with.
also this means that even with a difference of 7 in grapple modifiers, then a lv 11 or higher monk would still have a greater than 50% chance of getting a hold.


Read your SRD. Enlarge Person goes for 250 a pop. If you're looking to use it seriously at a level, you'll need 14 (one for each encounter, if you need it for your grappling argument). 250gp x 14 = 3,500 gp per level to keep stocked in Enlarge persons for each fight. Next?

and thats one of the things i considder a mistake in the book.


A Challenger Appears!

well Samthecleric, we could put him up against my now NG lv 20 monk Torc, that i mentioned earlier.

[mostlyharmful]

A Challenger Appears!


"Holy Rusted Metal Batman!!!!" You've completely kicked my ass at my own game. With a fraction of the resources I dedicated to the idea. And You're a Freakin' NPC class fer cryin' out loud!!!!

[Worira]

Nonsense! Monks have crossbow proficiencies (1d8 damage per round!) and shuriken that they can flury with (multiple 1d2 damage weapons ftw!) plusgood armor class because of their dexterity and wisdom modifiers!


Doubleplusgood?

[Rutee]

"Holy Rusted Metal Batman!!!!" You've completely kicked my ass at my own game. With a fraction of the resources I dedicated to the idea. And You're a Freakin' NPC class fer cryin' out loud!!!!

You've been Dan'd, son.

[Azerian Kelimon]

You've been Dan'd, son.

OOOOYAAAAJIIIII!

AK Madnesscorp informs you that you...

http://content.ytmnd.com/content/0/6/b/06be134e76550687427e82decb1f8ba2.jpg

...Have just Lost The Game. Please, Have a nice day.

[Illiterate Scribe]

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/c/cb/Lost_Tehh_Game.jpg

Anyway, where be Giacomo? He has a straw-hatted, porcelain-masked companion, now.

[Animefunkmaster]

I can't help but feel like this guide plays a monk more like a rogue than anything else. I have no disagreements with it, only that it feels like a rogue.

[Sir Giacomo]

OK, I'm back.

One thing right away, guys. I kindly ask some of you to stop making fun of what I post. Not because I can't take it (actually I greatly enjoy your many logical mistakes and attempts to replace them by lame jokes or sheer number repeating the same wrong arguments again and again). It's because I do not want to get this thread locked down. If you wish to make only fun and not contribute anything meaningful (at least not repeat the same jokes over and over, pls), I kindly ask you to leave this thread.
It is a joker thread - but that does not mean that you should replace arguments with just jokes...:smallsmile:

Then a short note on this "he refuses to give in" thing. Yes, guys. You simply fail to convince me.
You keep throwing flawed data at me (CR 3 monsters allegedly outgrappling the build I posted even at 3rd ! level), allegedly MOST CR 8-9 monsters unable to even touch a wizard using fly and invisbility (for 1min/level). Additionally, odd notions of yours come up like the Joker monk allegedly unable to buy all his wands (shown in this build yes, after that still denied), grease taking out a level 20 monk (or even a level 1 one because all of a sudden the wizard has rogue buddy nearby), the joker monk I posted allegedly unable to use a wand safely before level 20, the core monk being beaten easily by non-core material (wow, that's a surprise!), the monk not being able to flurry in a grapple, the monk having to use normal attacks instead of touch attacks for a grapple, the monk being outgrappled by other classes (shown again, he is not), the monk allegedly having no niches and being not the best at anything (shown repeatedly: yes, he does), allegedly that he cannot do anything apart from UMDing spells, has leadership feat and so on and so on.

This is the reason why I am so adamant about my position. Because you keep arguing with the same fallacies over and over again. Some you admit and still do not budge one iota.
I am also disappointed by greenknight here potraying my notion that core classes are rather balanced as a completely odd idea - and this after we had a year ago such a lengthy and interesting discussion with the fighter and cleric archer (which actually went a long way that thread from illustrating the fighter had no chance vs a balor to "is he actually able to kill a balor in 1 round?" to "can he beat the famed cleric archer"? Eventually, greenknight "won" by polymorphing any object into a stronger form and misinterpreting the holy word spell - which is no longer the state of the art, I dare say, on these boards).

Having said that, I do see some light coming up here and there in the WoTC boards where Azerion Kelimon so nicely put a ruined part of my guide to make fun of me there (and displaying the extent of what he understands as being fair by not changing the post there to a simple link. What astounds me even more is that NO one around here criticised him for doing so)..
Some posters there start to see some sense in it and pick up on the ideas. Most of them, though, are opposed to it completely. Which is highly disappointing in that they even admit not reading the guide, or making quite clear that they read it only up to the WHAT OMFG A MONK ABLE TO USE MAGIC WHAT NO ONLY BATMAN SHOULD DO THAT! Oh, well,...

What I feel is lacking so far here in this thread is a discussion of what is really still a problem with the joker build. Instead, I feel a lot of emotional responses coming up (even disguised in jestful form). The reason is probably that you all like playing casters (in particular the arcane kind) so much - and you behave as if I were your DM and would send an npc monk your way that actually caused trouble using the normal core rules.
In this case I point you again to what I wrote in the introduction. This is a guide intended for players who wish to play monks but get laughed at by their fellow caster players, or for DMs wishing to make npc monks more ofa challenge (although the wbl would be much less then).

Anyhow, on to the posts...

For a start, over at WoTC the poster Necroramo tried to do a Kurald Galain-style satire - and actually was completely right with it (without apparently knowing it). One problem for the Joker monk IS actually overcoming the spot/listen of the wizard's familiar (or a well-chosen animal companion of the druid), at least until mid-levels.
THAT would have been some criticism that I would have gladly taken up. Unfortunately, you utterly failed.

Then, what little constructive criticism was there so far I summarise thus in this interim summary comment post:
- at low levels enlarge wand should maybe be replaced by enlarge potions to make the enlarge effect more certain in and just ahead of combat. (courtesy lord_khaine) Although for some reason the potion price is 250 instead of 50. So the wand is way more efficient.
- the guide should include fluff ideas to make the UMD thing more workable in a campaign
- the spellstaff idea is not really feasible (as in : DMs will likely not allow it)
- I should rewrite the introduction to make it utterly clear that the guide is not intended to provide a basis or proof that "Beating Batman" means "Always or most of the time beating Batman". Regular forumgoers will know that I believe in the balance of the 3.5 core classes, but I'll nonetheless make it clearer soon.

Meanwhile, I'll comment on two longer posts in more detail, but first on two more recent ones giving build ideas for comparison, one meant to be funny, the other a good fighter build for grappling.

@Sam the Cleric:
An expert 20 with UMD? Wow, that's new. Why not a commoner level 20? Ah - also not very original. Anyhow, just for you again:
AMF. And all of a sudden the expert using UMD is reduced to the rest of his class abilities: non-boosted skills. He loses.

@Talic
Will answer to your longer post after this one, but just to correct your most recent mistake: you can flurry a grapple. It's obvious from the wording of the grappling rules in the PHB and SRD, and it's also clarified in the FAQ.
1-2 better grapple mods will definitely overcome with a flurry. Note also that the barbarians and fighter's grapple attacks will suffer much faster from the lower BAB base with each attempt, whereas eventually the monk has 3 (!) going at his highest rate.
And once again, guys, do not forget divine power. This is one of the key joker UMD spells at higher levels. With one stroke at high levels, it completely negates any grappling check advantage the fighter might have had, and gets quite close to the barbarian (who likely has no reliable source of enlarging effects without UMD, and may have trouble taking the improved grapple route with it since he needs DEX 15 alongside his sky-high STR.). Whatever is left as advantage for the barbarian who wasted two feats for this combat is easily outgrappled by the monk due to more attacks (flurry) better secondary attacks (flurry) and higher damage (the best stacking in the game, thanks to highest starting damage dice).


@Griffin131
Your fighter build looks good- although he has mage armour AND a breastplate? They do not stack.
Anyhow, the fighter is +3 ahead due to higher BAB. This can be equated by using a divine power effect (which does not give any BAB to the fighter, this is what I mean with synergy) - and the monk does more damage in a grapple AND has more number of grapple checks (so it is rather him more likely to pin the fighter who then has to use the highest of his grapple check to get out).
More of a problem is that the fighter is utterly behind in the hide/spot game. So the monk will set the timing of the encounter here, rather than the other way round. So likely the monk's buff will be up (simple enlarge is enough), while the fighter's will not be.
Finally, I already wrote in the guide that levels 9-10 are the stealthier levels of the monk because grappling gets less effective, and it is just before he can start to also fight in regular combat with more damage thanks to the monk's belt.
Mind you- providing the fighter with a UMD is also quite good, but he should use it more to compensate his lack of skills.

Now on to the first of the longer posts with a mixture of old and new mistakes:


Let's make things simple:
-Monk cannot be a proper scout since he cannot find traps (no Trapfinding, no Search, no Disable Device), so in any dungeon, he'll just walk into traps and die. Congratu-****ing-lations. You just got rid of yourself.

Of all classes except the rogue, the monk is best fit to trigger and survive traps. (courtesy the great monk school of lord_khaine). Heck, he could get the cleric find traps spell with a wand and raise search a bit. Although yes, nothing beats a rogue at finding traps -it's one of his niches, after all. But a scout is not only about finding traps. Being fast is another part. so let us say both monk and rogue have their scout uses/niches, OK?

-Monk doesn't have maxed Dex or Wis and since Spot/Hide and Listen/Move Silently are opposed checks, he's at a disadvantage versus anything which is focusing on either trait while also maxing the skill. That means he cannot be a reliable spotter, listener nor a hiding/move silently scout. Leave that to the Rogues and Druids, your Monk is only good enough to sneak past mooks and low HD monsters.

Well, my monk build happens to have maxed skill ranks and good DEX/WIS scores on top (and items besides).
And er...druids do not have hide or move silently (and remember, we live in a non-morphing world since some are allergic to cheese here). And yes, as long as a ranger and a rogue are in the party, then the monk can focus more on combat - which the joker build can ALSO do. Or he just added to the power of the scouting team or overall stealth of the group.
And you have to back up your odd idea how the majority of monsters with CR up to the monk's level will be able to consinstly spot/listen him? I mean, the build I provided. Note also that due to the monk's superior move, he can afford to make a wider berth and thus impose penalities on the opponents' checks.

-Use Magic Device is mostly wasted here as you don't use the utility wands nor the offensive ones and you don't have the time to buff before most fights. You spend a huge amount of resources on getting UMD without Charisma and with it as a crossclass skill. All you get for the trouble is a slightly-more-economic-than-potions way to use few spells, and still a total inability to use Moment of Prescience, Time Stop, Shapechange, all the spells worth using

You fail to see the tactics of the Joker monk. It is not using attack spells with UMD. It is using buff, utility, research and healing spells.
And it does not matter how I got the UMD, I got it - and the build is still powerful (or rather, more powerful due to it).
And this build can also use MoP, Time Stop and Shapechange (Cheese Supreme, but...strangely enough noone reprimanded you for this...wonder why...). Since they are all divine spells as well, which the Joker monk can cast from scrolls thanks to his high WIS.

Sure, spells help you, but that doesn't make Monk better than any other class in comparison; indeed, even Fighter has the same ability to UMD as a Monk, except since Fighter has less MAD, he can afford some points on Charisma. Also, the whole AMF tactic is pretty crappy as you negate all your buffs when using it, and Monk without buffs wasting two feats on UMD won't be standing up to anything.

Yes, the fighter can use UMD. And will likely get stuff like fly, continuous armour/weopon enchantment, will save boosts, stat boosts, divine favour and enlarge.
Yes, the monk can use UMD. And will lilkely get stuff like mage armour (for the non-armour class), divine power, enlarge, silence, shilllagh, shield.
Yes, the rogue can use UMD. And will likely get maybe grease at low levels, or reduce, invisibility, silence etc.
See the recurring theme? Yes? SYNERGY! Why is it so difficult to understand this?
And UMD is not only there to replace the pc spellcaster in emergency or stinginess situations or instances where there is noone around. No, it also helps get the great range:personal only spells.
EDIT: And the AMF tactics is good against those who lose more from not having magic: casters. Against a dragon or even a barbarian, it would not be a good idea.:smallwink:

-You don't get a way to consistently use Wands in time, which sucks as the boosts with low CL don't last long and therefore you don't have much time to boost even when knowing the opponent is coming beforehand.

The point is that the boosts last long enough and those that don't get boosted with the rod of extend. And the whole point about being good in the hide/movesilently/spot/listen combo is that the joker monk gets consistently more often the situation where he can buff.

-Grappling is a very limited tactic. When fighting against a single tough opponent, it's probably way too tough to Grapple (either has the magic to avoid grapple, or has the power to easily outgrapple you) and when fighting against hordes, you should be controlling masses and dealing damage instead of focusing on a single opponent.

Sigh. Read the statistics, already posted way up. You need "hordes" of more than four monster opponents to actually make a situation of being outnumbered feasible - and those are around 2 CR lower than the single monster opponent. And as I already said: the grapple capstone for this monk is level 8, after that it's different tactics.

-Grappling is a PvP tactic mostly and mediocre at best even there. Leave it to those with incredible Strength and full BAB (Barbarians, mostly). Unfortunately Monk doesn't get anything beyond extra attacks that they can't even use after a move to help them in Grapple. Everyone can pick up Improved Grapple and anyone with full BAB and Strength-focus is going to outgrapple you. Anyone with Dex-focus is going to be able to escape your Grapple.

Read. The. Guide. Or what I wrote above. Why toss around the same fallacies over and over again? Incredible.
Escape ARtist? Standard action and move. AoO. Monk's turn. Grapple re-established. Great.
Anyone with full BAB and strength focus needs a minimum DEX 15 to keep improved grapple while enlarged. Highly difficult,.
Full BAB gets equated with divine power (which also pushes the flurry attack advantage to up to two).
Grapple damage is the highest from the monk.

In other words, you have a build that devotes a ton of resources to being able to spend actions (spending actions = not contributing in combat; every round you buff, your allies are getting pummeled by the guys you should be holding back) to buff in the beginning of each combat and cannot fight nor scout.

Funnily, grappling is one of the tactics that literally can hold back an enemy, even a huge one. One successful touch attack as the huge tiger tries to rush by to reach the Solorcerer and it's stopped dead in its tracks, its charge wasted.

This whole "tactical fighting" thing you're saying implies you'd have the ability to shape the battlefield somehow and thus restrict the opponents and enable your own allies to fight more effectively. This Monk cannot do that. You need reach and attacks of opportunities to do it; grapple is totally opposite, making you threaten no space and taking you out of combat while making you an easy target for opponents to kill.

Sigh. Enlarge grapple has 10ft reach. From 6th level, the joker monk can disarm at a quite substantial bonus up to 20ft away. Grapple negates enemy charges with AoO. This joker monk even has 2 attacks of opportunity (3 later or in normal size).
Similarly, due to UMD this joker monk has plenty of possibilities to create concealment at low levels and worse stuff and sky-high AC at higher levels. Heck, he can get an alter self like the Solorcerer and add +6 natural AC at low levels as well.

You cannot scout since you lack the skill inherent to keeping yourself alive while crawling in dungeons. You have a good speed, but that doesn't let you outrun a trap you triggered.

Funny. Commented on already above.
Actually, with the speed, you can JUMP over whole trap areas.

Here are Monk's problems in a nutshell:
-Their primary attacks have a low chance of hitting due to medium BAB, and the thing they advance in damage (unarmed strike) is horribly expensive to enhance magically*.

Their primary attacks are entirely enough due to touch attack for grapple tactics.
And I showed many ways to enhance the unarmed strike to produce 300 damage or so per round at level 16. Or was it 15? Do not remember right now.

Your proposed fix? Use Divine Power. Requires an action. Also, doesn't give your attack any abilities, just full BAB. Helps, but you cannot have it up all day so you tend to waste few turns you could be dealing damage to pump up. Also, you waste 2 perfectly good feats.

Help! The monk uses actions to do something. Like..er...everyone else?
Once again: at the time where divine power is used more often, the UMD is up to the +19 needed.
The two feats are not wasted, since you get UMD reliably around level 13-15 instead of never outside epic. Plus, you also get your spellcraft up by +2.

-They advance two useful abilities, fast movement and flurry of blows, but cannot combine these in a meaningful way in combat. Fast movement mostly would allow them to scout if they had Trapfinding (they don't), while Flurry would make up for their medium BAB if they had a way to take full attacks (they don't). Main problem here is Spring Attack-feat sucking.

Sigh. I have shown in the guide how it's possible to combine move with flurry.

Your proposed fix? Grapple. Doesn't work. You don't have Strength and BAB to pull it off without boosting and the time to boost. Also, you'll still only get one hit turn 1 (a relevant hit chance) and you'll lose in grapple to most CR appropriate encounters and you're not helping enough by just taking out one guy vs. swarms. It doesn't address the main issue of not being able to move and attack properly.

Please. Have a look at the monster manual yourself. Up to CR 8. Deduct the animals (can be evaded with cheap hide from animals wands). You'll be surprised.

-They need Dex and Wis for AC, Con for HP (especially with their low hit die), Int due to their low natural skills and Str if they want to ever pursue a combat style other than just hitting things. That means they'll have ~+2 to all, which leaves them doing all their things in a mediocre manner**.

Mediocre? If you do not believe in grappling tactics, what difference to +2 to grapple check make? (meaning spending 10 more point buy on Strenght). But true, you could focus the monk on a few abilities only. I did not go that path.

Your proposed fix? Just spread scores around. Leaves you sucking in all areas. You really need high scores in at least Str and Wis for a Monk to work out; Con too to survive.

Yes. A 14 stat means "sucking". Strangely enough, the stats are just fine as they are.

-Their feats are very limited. Stunning Fist is good, but due to low Wis will never reach credible levels without extreme focus. Others of them are mediocre or poor. Str and medium BAB mean you won't be a good grappler. Same goes for tripping. Disarming without helping weapons is nearly impossible, and sundering is just dumb.

You repeat yourself.

Your proposed fix? None, you go with the plan of taking a tactic you cannot really pull off.

Tell me a way to avoid grapple without freedom of movement. And higher grapple check does not count, since it was shown already that the monk has a higher grapple check most of the time.

-They have no protections from Sneak Attack (and can't wear armor so they can't pick up Fortifications), and with their low HP, strikers will kill them really fast.
our proposed fix? None. You actually make it easy for them by grappling people.

Should I say Eversmoking Bottle? Yes, I should. Or better yet: concealment, available from level 2 in obcuring mist form. Sneaks are over.

*Amulet of Mighty Fists and Natural Attacks are both much more expensive than enhanced weapons so the best you can hope is a +5 Greater Magic Weapon from the party caster if you want to afford other things.

See what I wrote in the guide on the issue of amulet of mighty fists. And my ideas to overcome it.

That means you'll need to roll high all your career to hit any real ACs.

Touch AC up to level 8? Not so much. And at the high levels when divine power is there? Just like the fighter. OK, the monk does not have weapon focus and greater weapon focus, true.:smallbiggrin:
Seriously - the monk SHOULD not be able to hit as well consistently, since he has so many other class abilities - it would not be balanced with the fighter and barbarian classes.

**They can't get high AC since they can't afford high Dex and Wis.

Strangely enough, my build can.

They can't get high saves since they can't afford high Con, Wis and Dex (even with their progression).

Strangely enough, my build can.

They can't get enough skillpoints since they can't get a high Int.

7 skill points per level is all this build needed. I had difficutly assigning the points after around level 12-15. Maybe they should go to knowledge--arcane and diplomacy rather than to diplomacy (since even using it is also some kind of no-no by some on these boards). This is btw also a sign that without great problems this build can be adapted to other core races.

They can't hit well enough and use alternative combat styles,

Grapple, Disarm, Stun, Flurry (incl. Shuriken), Flyby hit-and-run attack. Yep, sounds enough to me.

since they can't afford high Str.

STR 20 by level 8 is OK, I guess.

They cannot make use of Stunning Fist without high Wis.

At high levels, they can make use of it with a WIS of 8 since it's just added gravy which constantly threatens opponents to be knocked out in one hit when they throw a "1". Weak fort types will get knocked out more quickly.
And the joker monk has quite a good stun DC.

Their opposed checks are poor due to the lack of stats.

Against rank maxed-out, item-using, DEX/WIS 18 opponents, maybe. Against the other 99%, not so much.

They have low HP due to lowish hit die and low Con.

Ah, finally a rather weak area of the joker monk. He'll have to use good tactics to survive, I guess?:smallsmile:

Ach, too late now - will react to Talic's long post later...tomorrow maybe.

- Giacomo

PS: I'll also focus a bit more now with my spare time on the 6th level adventure with Ozymandias.

[Talic]

that was an example to explain why i thought it was a flawed idea when you claimed monks were a bad class, just because other classes did some thing better than them.I'm not claiming that monks are bad. I'm saying that they're worse at everything than someone else. Something that you yourself implied than with your 80% comment.

im really disapointet about this question, for it shows you hasnt really paid any attention to my posts at all, Gia is the one who uses UMD, not me.
a movement speed of 20 is really bad, compared to the monk who has 50 at this level, and is able to charge 100 and still deliver an attack at the end.Now, how about the barbarian, who has a movement of 40, and a better attack bonus and much higher damage output?

that aside, in the grapple, then im pretty sure my monk would win, when we start to considder that the monk would do 17.5 with each grapple check, compared to yours 6.5, and also the monk has 2 attacks at full bonus, thats a very big advantage thats often forgotten. Really? How about this one? Level 8. Monk just got a boost to flurry, lowering the penalty. monk's built with a 16 strength. Fighter, built with an 18 strength, also has improved grapple. Fighter also has a +2 str item, but so does monk. Both have a 14 con. Fighter has armor spikes, and gauntlets. Monk, unfortunately, is not wearing armor. Monk charges in, and manages to get a hold, despite his 34% chance of success. Deals decent damage.

Fighter attempts to pin, gets it, follows up with a second attack to damage for 1d3+str + armor spikes (1d6). Now, the monk will have to spend an average of 2 attacks every round just to have a 50% chance at breaking the pin, giving him an average of 1 attempt to damage every round. 1 in 3 rounds, he'll actually damage. Meanwhile, the fighter will get his damage 2 our of 3 rounds. So now, compare the monk's 1d10+4 once every 3 rounds, to the fighter's 2d3+2d6+10 in the same time, while keeping the monk controlled.

Or perhaps just straight rolls? Fighter will have 2 attacks, and will do 1d3+1d6+5 per hit, with a 66% accuracy. Weighted damage per attack is 6.93 per attack, or 13.86 for each round's 2 attacks.
Monk will have 3 attacks, for 1d10+4 damage each hit. Average damage per hit of 9.5, with a 34% chance of success. Weighted damage is 3.23 per attack, or 9.69 for his 3 attacks in a round. The fighter has slightly better hp, due to damage die, and is outputting an average of 4.17 damage more per round. Upgrading the monk to Str 18? Lowers the bonus to +2, and changes the average damages to:
Fighter: Weighted damage 12.35 per round.
Monk: Weighted damage 12.05 per round.

Now, it's close to parity. The fighter, however, can get by with a 12 dex, 14 con, and 10 wis, with 8's everywhere else. (28 point buy) Alternately, for the enlarge trick, he can go with a 16 str, with the monk's 16, have a 16 dex, a 14 con, and a wis 10.
Monk with 16 str, 14 dex, 14 wis, 14 con is 28 points. Fighter has a +2 advantage, and the enlarge makes up the str difference between 16 and 18 str for both sides, for weighted numbers:
Fighter: 12.35
Monk: 12.05

No matter how you skew it, the fighter comes out with more HP and better average damage per round, by virtue of more attacks hitting. This means that, all things equal (+2 str items, potions of enlarge), the fighter will always win the grapple, by the averages. This qualifies the fighter as being a "better grappler". At level 9-10, when the monk has an additional attack from flurry, he's got a darn good chance of being slightly better. That will disappear permanently at level 11, when the fighter gets a bonus attack from BAB. Thus, the monk is not the best at grapple. Even WITH the extra attacks from flurry.


besides those think the monk would also have 2 more skillpoints per level, and a much better list of class skills, as well as improved evasion and better saves. if that makes him better than the fighter is a matter of oppinion.No, whether that makes his class better is a matter of optimization. If the monk is trying to keep up in grapple, he will have a lower AC. If the monk is trying to keep his saves up, he will have lower AC. Lower AC = greater chance to be hit. Further, the monk will typically have less HP. Further, the fighter will typically have several other feats available (at level 8, after the imp grapple, the human fighter has 6 feats to burn, on other things to boost effectiveness). While the monk may be better than the fighter at some things, he'll be worse at any combat related task. Thus, the monk is a less effective combatant than the fighter.

Rogues? Have better skills, evasion, superior damage through sneak attack, and an ability to be unflankable and retain dex to AC. They also have trapfinding. Now, a monk could reliably compete in fighting ability with a rogue. However, the monk will fall behind in scouting (unable to find and remove most traps, including every magical trap in existence), skills (if you thought the monk had a decent list of skills, check out the rogue), and espionage.

Bottom line, the monk is an effective character within a very specific party subset that is not often played. That is the stealth party in core. Monks make really good stealth combatants in that situation. Outside of core, there are feats that give fighters/barbarians similar stealth abilities, so that pretty much goes away.


actualy, its specificly mentioned in the FAQ, that the monk is able to use his flurry of blows attacks to grapple with.
also this means that even with a difference of 7 in grapple modifiers, then a lv 11 or higher monk would still have a greater than 50% chance of getting a hold. That same monk would have to start the round in full attack range, and make 4 attacks to have a better than 50% chance to land 1. Meanwhile the grappler with the +7 mod will be landing 80.5% of hits. Even assuming that the monk deals twice the damage per hit of the enemy grappler, he will need to make twice as many attacks every round to be even in average damage.


and thats one of the things i considder a mistake in the book.And the SRD? And everywhere else that prices are listed? Mighty widespread mistake, that. When the RAW doesn't agree with you, it's a mistake, now? Heh.

[Illiterate Scribe]

PS: I'll also focus a bit more now with my spare time on the 6th level adventure with Ozymandias.

Cool. It'll be good to see you. The fact that the OoC thread already has >100 views, with only four posts, and no characters yet, shows that we'll have spectators :smallcool:.

[Reel On, Love]

Giacomo, I gotta say.

The people on the CharOp boards are the experts on D&D character power. If you're failing to convince any of us, failing to convince any of them, well...

What I'm trying to say here is, have you considered the possibility that you're not some kind of unsung genius, the only one who knows what he's talking about, whom the ignorant masses reject out of stupidity or spite?

It'd just be really, really strange if you somehow magically understand monks better than the people who know D&D best... especially since you haven't actually ever played a monk like this.

[SilverClawShift]

This is the reason why I am so adamant about my position. Because you keep arguing with the same fallacies over and over again.

MATHEMATICAL EQUATIONS ARE NOT FALLACIES

[Illiterate Scribe]

MATHEMATICAL EQUATIONS ARE NOT FALLACIES

Some of them are.
I <3 Godel's Incompleteness Theorem.
But those ones aren't equations, strictly speaking.

[Sir Giacomo]

Giacomo, I gotta say.

The people on the CharOp boards are the experts on D&D character power. If you're failing to convince any of us, failing to convince any of them, well...

What I'm trying to say here is, have you considered the possibility that you're not some kind of unsung genius, the only one who knows what he's talking about, whom the ignorant masses reject out of stupidity or spite?

It'd just be really, really strange if you somehow magically understand monks better than the people who know D&D best... especially since you haven't actually ever played a monk like this.

First of all, Reel on Love, I already convinced some. Not the majority, but some.
And if the majority keeps proclaiming the same mistakes as truth again and again, I'll try to oppose that.
Check the thread for yourself. Some of those who reject it admit they stopped reading it after some sentences (wonder how much this has to do with the way it is presented...hmmm...:smallsmile:)
And to this "majority" I should give in? What kind of optimisers are that? This is simple ideology "SAY AFTER ME: BATMAN IS UBER, WILL BE UBER, AND NOTHING WILL CHANGE THAT", no discussion.

- Giacomo

EDIt: as an aside, Talic: I guess that armour spike damage is only added on a successful grapple ATTACK (SRD: "Armor Spikes: You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. "). So it does not apply on further checks. So, in case the monk surprises/wins initiative and initiates the grapple on HIS attack, the spike damage does not apply at all (only when the fighter manages to detach and then attack/grapples on his turn). Makes also sense to me intuitively.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Oh, BTW, is there any space left in the test for a skillmonkey? I have one who is willing to play that role.

[Illiterate Scribe]

This is simple ideology "SAY AFTER ME: BATMAN IS UBER, WILL BE UBER, AND NOTHING WILL CHANGE THAT", no discussion.

- Giacomo

This message approved by Big Solo; he is watching you.


Oh, BTW, is there any space left in the test for a skillmonkey? I have one who is willing to play that role.

Talic was looking at the third and final place, but the thread is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80837), and you can fight over the slot. Skill monkeying may be a little boring though, as we're trying to control our variables (read: Ozymandias, Giacomonk).

[Signmaker]

Question.

You mention the validity of Grappling with Flurries as "Obvious".

Please quote the text, with bolded statement that makes said above statement true? Last I checked, Talic did that to prove his point. People tend to believe his arguments more. Savvy?

[Rutee]

MATHEMATICAL EQUATIONS ARE NOT FALLACIES
Oh yes, you were the one hwo compiled the huge list of AC boosters for a monk to show their defense to normal attacks wasn't that super high, weren't you? Poor thing.

[Reel On, Love]

First of all, Reel on Love, I already convinced some. Not the majority, but some.
And if the majority keeps proclaiming the same mistakes as truth again and again, I'll try to oppose that.
Check the thread for yourself. Some of those who reject it admit they stopped reading it after some sentences (wonder how much this has to do with the way it is presented...hmmm...:smallsmile:)
And to this "majority" I should give in? What kind of optimisers are that? This is simple ideology "SAY AFTER ME: BATMAN IS UBER, WILL BE UBER, AND NOTHING WILL CHANGE THAT", no discussion.

- Giacomo

So, what you're saying here is, "I understand D&D and optimize better than the people on the CharOp boards, who give us the most powerful builds--core or not--in the game."

That's awfully modest of you.

[Azerian Kelimon]

This message approved by Big Solo; he is watching you.



Talic was looking at the third and final place, but the thread is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80837), and you can fight over the slot. Skill monkeying may be a little boring though, as we're trying to control our variables (read: Ozymandias, Giacomonk).

Just one thing: TA-RA-RA-RA...TA-RA-RA! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1c05_yXmaI)

Indy will do it, and even better if he DOESN'T have to spend the last feat on imp. unarmed strike.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Just one thing: TA-RA-RA-RA...TA-RA-RA! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1c05_yXmaI)

Indy will do it, and even better if he DOESN'T have to spend the last feat on imp. unarmed strike.

Core only, I'm afraid. You can have the theme tune, though, as an idiosyncrasy. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5724)

[Sir Giacomo]

WBL AND DISPOSABLE INCOME

The game provides for PC's to have certain amounts of wealth at certain levels. This is "Wealth by level", or WBL. It achieves this by granting an average amount of awarded treasure per encounter.

Listings for both of these are found on DMG, p.135, and DMG, p.51.

When you take the average amount of treasure per encounter, and divide it by 4, you get the amount of treasure that each party member should make in that encounter, per level.

In D&D, the experience table is scaled so that 14 even CR encounters will get you a level.

Thus, taking the information on Table 3-3 (DMG, p.51) and dividing it by 4 (for party division), then multiplying by 14 (for all the encounters in the character level), you get the total amount a PC should earn in that level, on average.

But that's greater than the current wealth of the PC + wealth gained. It puts a PC above WBL. This is intentional. The designers put in extra earnings to reflect the use of items that are disposable. These items are used, and then are no more, such as wands, potions, scrolls, food, poisons, alchemical items, and the like.

The table I derived for monk (class only matters at level 1, where starting gold is different) is thus:
{table=header] Level/Next Level | Gold allocated for Disposable items
1 to 2 | 162.5
2 to 3 | 300
3 to 4 | 450
4 to 5 | 600
5 to 6 | 1,600
6 to 7 | 1,000
7 to 8 | 1,100
8 to 9 | 2,900
9 to 10 | 2,750
10 to 11 | 3,300
11 to 12 | 4,250
12 to 13 | 12,300
13 to 14 | 5,500
14 to 15 | 9,500
15 to 16 | 17,000
16 to 17 | 18,000
17 to 18 | 26,000
18 to 19 | 24,500
19 to 20 | 100,000[/table]

Costs for items per level (assuming used 1 time in each encounter):
Potion (50gp) - 700gp
Potion (250gp - Enlarge Person) - 3,500gp
Wand (750gp) - 210gp (cost per item reaches DMG advised 25% total WBL at level 4, first obtainable with 83.3% WBL at level 2)
Wand (11,250, or level 3 spell, such as heroism) - 3,150 gp

Thus, the first level that you could reliably use a standard 50gp potion once an encounter, and not fall behind WBL, is level 5.

The first level you could reliably use Enlarge Person potions? Level 11.

The first level you could use a level 1, 750gp wand? By disposable income, level 2. By DMG advised WBL guidelines, level 4. First time viable in combat? Well, without heroism, level 13-14, depending on who you ask.

First time the Level 3 heroism spell is viable in a wand? Level 10, and it'll use so much WBL, you won't have enough left over for a level 1 wand without falling behind. Level 11 gets you the ability to use it and afford wands, without falling behind.

Thus, we can conclude that potions, which use a combat action, are not viable to make a character combat effectiveness until almost the level you could attain reliable UMD use with wands, as a monk. Wands are more cost effective, but are not reliable until level 11, at the earliest, unless you want to fall behind the WBL curve... And that's with heroism correctly guessed before every enounter (with a 30 minute duration, it's a bit rough to get perfect). Without that, you're mitigating the effectiveness of your actions, with actions that are not even sure to be taken, much less successful.



This needs addressing faster than I intended - it's already spread as "truth" on the WoTC boards and I sincerely hope that the one who posted it there will correct it.*

Talic, what has gone into you here? You are trying to show that the monk cannot use the wands I budgeted becaused you show actually that by the DMG pcs are actually supposed to HAVE EVEN MORE AVAILABLE FOR CONSUMABLE ITEMS?

This is the most confusing post you made so far.

And, of course, it is wrong. The DMG p. 135 table is the only one that counts. And it is the only wbl table ever used to my knowledge to make character builds. You can spend all your wbl in scrolls or potions or wands. As long as you follow the 1/4 per single item guideline (DMG p. 199), you're fine.

Eagerly awaiting your correction.

- Giacomo

*EDIT: And something tells me Dandu on WoTC=Solo....:smallsmile: So much for the alleged "optimisation giants" over at WoTC...:smallbiggrin:

[Griffin131]

a movement speed of 20 is really bad, compared to the monk who has 50 at this level, and is able to charge 100 and still deliver an attack at the end.
True. I pointed that out, if you'll note. I also pointed out that I can move 80 in one round, without an attack at the end.


that aside, in the grapple, then im pretty sure my monk would win, when we start to considder that the monk would do 17.5 with each grapple check, compared to yours 6.5, and also the monk has 2 attacks at full bonus, thats a very big advantage thats often forgotten.
My grapple mod is higher than yours. How much damage do you do while pinned? 0? Okay.


besides those think the monk would also have 2 more skillpoints per level, and a much better list of class skills, as well as improved evasion and better saves. if that makes him better than the fighter is a matter of oppinion.
Better saves? Versus Gia's level 10 monk, I had a better Fort save, and he had better Ref by *1* and Will by 3. Yeah. Much better.

Gia: I oppose all your +14's with my +17. You can use all the attacks you want, praying you'll get to un-pin then roll to hit me. Oh, and change the Mage Armor to Barkskin - my apologies about that. Or, I could spend money on magic items to buff my AC.

You use Divine Power to get +3 to your grapple check (making yours +22, mine +22 with Enlarge) and I hit Bull's Strength which puts me back on top (by 2).

[Telonius]

Escape ARtist? Standard action and move. AoO. Monk's turn. Grapple re-established. Great.


Not true for all cases. Most Wizards and Rogues I've seen have at least a few ranks in Tumble. Bards have it as a class skill, and light- and un-armored clases like Ranger, Druid, Barbarian, and Sorcerer tend to stick a couple ranks in it (if only to have the possibility open to them). Clerics, Fighters, and Paladins are the only three core classes I would count on not having any ranks in Tumble at all. Tumble Past DC is only 15. With just a few ranks and a decent Dex, you'll be reliably moving past your grappler with no AoO's.

That said, this is actually a fairly viable tactic to take a foe out of the fight, assuming the Monk has a grapple check somewhere near the target's. Against NPC foes, you'll usually be able to neutralize one target, allowing the rest of the group to concentrate fire on other targets, or allowing the Rogue to unleash stabbity doom on the person you're grappling. Against monsters, you can also often use this as a delaying tactic. However, there are dangers to this. If it's a monster, rather than an NPC, many times you will be unable to pin it (even with enlarge person). That leaves you open to the (often powerful) natural attacks of the enemy when it gets its own chance to grapple you. If you're fighting NPC enemies, the enemy Rogue can unleash stabbity doom on you. Note that, once you are in a grapple, you cannot make any AoO's, since you do not threaten any square, and you lose your own Dexterity to AC.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Please. Have a look at the monster manual yourself. Up to CR 8. Deduct the animals (can be evaded with cheap hide from animals wands). You'll be surprised.


This tactic troubles me, because of the following things.
1) should the whole party avoid animal encounters just because you can't handle them? There are definitely parties that won't stand for that.
2) what if the animals ambush you or at least notice you when you notice them, you can't expect to have a druid with 4-5 of his first level spells devoted to hide from animals and your UMD isn't high enough to use reliably in combat yet.
3) what if you for some reason must kill the animal e.g. it is attacking innocents or you want it's skin, maybe it's sleeping on your loot?

It's a nice spell, but not the answer to all animals you'll ever encounter.

Second I'll try to give you some "constructive criticism".
I think you wand budget is a bit to vague, you've seen Talic's analysis, if you want to prove that you build is viable it would be a good idea to give a structured overview of how you spend every single penny, this will also prevent the so called schrödinger's monk arguments.
You need to show what you buy in chronological order(with price) and list how often you expect to use it(e.g. wand of enlarge(750 gp) 80% of the encounters).
I think that would be far more useful then to constantly refer to your guide, people on this board want cold-hard numbers!
good luck.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Core only, I'm afraid. You can have the theme tune, though, as an idiosyncrasy. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5724)

Ooh, tasty super sneak attack! Pity I don't get Ambush feats, but hey, super Sa is still good.

[Gorbash]

Their primary attacks are entirely enough due to touch attack for grapple tactics.
And I showed many ways to enhance the unarmed strike to produce 300 damage or so per round at level 16. Or was it 15? Do not remember right now.

IF you hit with all atacks, which are at -4 penalty. Where did you get the idea that in grapple you need to hit only touch AC? It only says that you can make an attack against the opponent you're grappling at a -4 penalty.

[Sir Giacomo]

My grapple mod is higher than yours. How much damage do you do while pinned? 0? Okay.

Since the monk has more grapple checks availble, it is more likely that your fighter will find himself pinned and having to waste his highest grapple check to get out. But overall, with no side able to buff, the fighter should be slightly ahead. With both sides able to buff (include divine power), the monk is ahead. With only the monk able to buff (due to better chance at surprising), then monk wins.


Better saves? Versus Gia's level 10 monk, I had a better Fort save, and he had better Ref by *1* and Will by 3. Yeah. Much better.

Yes, as you said. Better.


Gia: I oppose all your +14's with my +17. You can use all the attacks you want, praying you'll get to un-pin then roll to hit me. Oh, and change the Mage Armor to Barkskin - my apologies about that. Or, I could spend money on magic items to buff my AC.

You realise that your touch AC remains low?


You use Divine Power to get +3 to your grapple check (making yours +22, mine +22 with Enlarge) and I hit Bull's Strength which puts me back on top (by 2).

No, with bull's strength you are still +1 behind (you received +4 enhance, the monk received +6 enhance).

And note: one level later, the odds tilt in favour of the monk, due to monk's belt and the next flurry max BAB attack (plus an extra iterative attack from divine power).

- Giacomo

[Reel On, Love]

[spoiler]
*EDIT: And something tells me Dandu on WoTC=Solo....:smallsmile: So much for the alleged "optimisation giants" over at WoTC...:smallbiggrin:

Oh, I see!

The people at CharOp--you know, the ones who invented Pun-Pun--are bad optimizers because they disagree with you!

You're not just an unsung genius, everyone who disagrees with you doesn't even know what they're doing!

Your arrogance has a -8 Size penalty to AC.

[Draz74]

... the monk not being able to flurry in a grapple, ...
I have a vague memory that you're actually right that the monk can use Flurry in a grapple, but I can't find where the rules actually allow it. Could you point me to a quote?


the monk allegedly having no niches and being not the best at anything (shown repeatedly: yes, he does),
The scout/skill monkey role? Hmmm.


This is the reason why I am so adamant about my position. Because you keep arguing with the same fallacies over and over again. Some you admit and still do not budge one iota.
Some of the arguments against you are being iterated in a very sloppy, repetitive, poorly-explained way; yes. They are tossed about as "obvious" statements with no evidence to back them up. But you do the same thing ... a lot, honestly. The Flurry & Grapple question above is one example, and it's even an example where I think you're ultimately right, but I still say your "evidence" for it that you've posted so far is rather shaky.


- and this after we had a year ago such a lengthy and interesting discussion with the fighter and cleric archer (which actually went a long way that thread from illustrating the fighter had no chance vs a balor to "is he actually able to kill a balor in 1 round?" to "can he beat the famed cleric archer"? Eventually, greenknight "won" by polymorphing any object into a stronger form and misinterpreting the holy word spell - which is no longer the state of the art, I dare say, on these boards).
Well, you're ignoring the part where people were saying, all along, "A PvP fight is not really going to settle the question." And the part where you only had a chance in the Balor fight because you went with an archer, which is universally accepted as one of the stronger options for a Core-only fighter. Being able to make an OK archer does not redeem some of the other weak aspects of a Core Fighter.


Having said that, I do see some light coming up here and there in the WoTC boards where Azerion Kelimon so nicely put a ruined part of my guide to make fun of me there (and displaying the extent of what he understands as being fair by not changing the post there to a simple link. What astounds me even more is that NO one around here criticised him for doing so)..
You're right, that was lame to do without permission and without taking the time to put your writing in ideal format.


The reason is probably that you all like playing casters (in particular the arcane kind) so much
Now I think you're jumping to conclusions. Some of us are quite upset that casters are stronger than non-casters in 3e, because we like playing non-casters.


@Talic
Will answer to your longer post after this one, but just to correct your most recent mistake: you can flurry a grapple. It's obvious from the wording of the grappling rules in the PHB and SRD, and it's also clarified in the FAQ.
This is the "shaky" evidence I referred to earlier ...


1-2 better grapple mods will definitely be overcome with a flurry.
(Edited to demonstrate what I assume this statement was claiming.) More shakiness. Can you back this claim up with statistics, for those of us who aren't sure whether it's true and don't want to do the math?


And once again, guys, do not forget divine power. This is one of the key joker UMD spells at higher levels. With one stroke at high levels, it completely negates any grappling check advantage the fighter might have had, and gets quite close to the barbarian (who likely has no reliable source of enlarging effects without UMD, and may have trouble taking the improved grapple route with it since he needs DEX 15 alongside his sky-high STR.). Whatever is left as advantage for the barbarian who wasted two feats for this combat is easily outgrappled by the monk due to more attacks (flurry) better secondary attacks (flurry) and higher damage (the best stacking in the game, thanks to highest starting damage dice).
Hmmm. Typical Fighters and Barbarians have significantly higher STR than your Monk build. (They don't need WIS and CON as badly, mind you.) And a dedicated Barbarian grappling build will have lots of damage on his grapple attacks via magic Spiked Armor.


Of all classes except the rogue, the monk is best fit to trigger and survive traps. (courtesy the great monk school of lord_khaine).
More too-quickly-explained "evidence." Still, I agree with this point ... IF it's a Monk build with a high AC. Which yours most certainly is NOT. Lots of traps attack you with attack rolls, you know.


Being fast is another part. so let us say both monk and rogue have their scout uses/niches, OK?
Traditionally the "skill monkey role" of the party values trapmonkeying much more than speed. I don't know if it should. Probably extremely campaign-dependent. But if you're trying to present the Monk as viably filling the "Rogue" role of the party, you'll have to start by attacking these more fundamental assumptions about what that role in the party is supposed to do.


And this build can also use MoP, Time Stop and Shapechange (Cheese Supreme, but...strangely enough noone reprimanded you for this...wonder why...). Since they are all divine spells as well, which the Joker monk can cast from scrolls thanks to his high WIS.
Assuming you can find them in divine form. Yes, they are divine spells, but the SRD seems to place them in the category of "scrolls that you should assume will be found in arcane form, since finding a high-level Cleric making/selling scrolls and having the specific Domain you need is pretty rare." Totally depends on how lenient your DM is with "magic shops," and I think most DMs will fall in the "not lenient enough" category.


Yes, the fighter can use UMD. And will likely get stuff like fly, continuous armour/weopon enchantment, will save boosts, stat boosts, divine favour and enlarge.
Yes, the monk can use UMD. And will lilkely get stuff like mage armour (for the non-armour class), divine power, enlarge, silence, shilllagh, shield.
Yes, the rogue can use UMD. And will likely get maybe grease at low levels, or reduce, invisibility, silence etc.
See the recurring theme? Yes? SYNERGY! Why is it so difficult to understand this?
And UMD is not only there to replace the pc spellcaster in emergency or stinginess situations or instances where there is noone around. No, it also helps get the great range:personal only spells.
EDIT: And the AMF tactics is good against those who lose more from not having magic: casters. Against a dragon or even a barbarian, it would not be a good idea.:smallwink:
His tacit point was: And yet, with all the hundreds of Fighter builds out there, you rarely see one utilizing this UMD ability. If it were really such a great strategy, wouldn't you think it would have caught on by now?


The point is that the boosts last long enough and those that don't get boosted with the rod of extend. And the whole point about being good in the hide/movesilently/spot/listen combo is that the joker monk gets consistently more often the situation where he can buff.
Again, you need to read between the lines and attack more fundamental underlying assumptions that are differences between your opinion and others' experiences. People who are arguing with you don't seem to think that, playing D&D, you usually get good enough "encounter control" to be able to spend a couple rounds buffing just before a fight. (I don't, btw, understand why they can't just say that to avoid repeating the same old arguments.)

So a lot of your build rests on this. How well does maxed H/MS/Spot/Listen actually allow you to be aware of fights before they start, and control when they start? I think it should work pretty well ... and yet my own experience matches the common opinion better. I don't understand the discrepency between theory and practice on this point, and I would appreciate if anyone can explain it to me. It would make my stealthy characters more effective.


Sigh. Read the statistics, already posted way up. You need "hordes" of more than four monster opponents to actually make a situation of being outnumbered feasible - and those are around 2 CR lower than the single monster opponent. And as I already said: the grapple capstone for this monk is level 8, after that it's different tactics.
OK, I'm not directly responding to this point; it just reminded me of something else earlier in the thread.

People's experience also seems to indicate that they rarely face monsters of below their party's level. If they're fighting 3-5 monsters at the same time, those monsters are usually about the same CR as the party level. If they are fighting a solo encounter, it's usually 2-3 higher CR than the party level.

This seems to run contrary to your assumptions about what CRs of monsters you will be expected to grapple with your Monk build. If you want people to respect your grappling ability, you have to convince them that you will indeed be facing the CR of monsters that you expect.


Escape ARtist? Standard action and move. AoO. Monk's turn. Grapple re-established. Great.
Nobody is going to be dumb enough, after using Escape Artist, to try to just walk away from you, and let you grapple them again. They'll Tumble, or (if they have a high Touch AC and Mobility) just walk away from you and you'll miss them when you try to re-grapple, or they'll just whack you, or they'll cast a spell (with Defensive Casting). So downplaying Escape Artist as completely useless is not an argument most people agree with.

You also seem to assume that most opponents will have the same Reach as you, or lesser reach when you're Enlarged. This is a bad assumption to have so universally. Lots of enemy melee NPCs will have reach weapons. (Yes, I know you have a spiked chain, but flurry, grapple, and a lot of your other tricks don't work with it.) Lots of monsters are big enough to have natural reach. If you get Enlarged, so do the NPCs ... and the monsters might still be bigger than you, quite likely.


Anyone with full BAB and strength focus needs a minimum DEX 15 to keep improved grapple while enlarged. Highly difficult,.
I've seen quite a few STR-based melee builds with Dex 15. They like their Combat Reflexes-based AoOs.
Or they could have 13, and be Enlarged by some other process (Righteous Might, or being a Half-Giant ...)


Actually, with the speed, you can JUMP over whole trap areas.
Most dungeons have lowish ceilings. Especially the parts of them that are trapped, like doorways. And not all traps are triggered by pressure plates on the floor. And how is your party going to follow you after you bypass a trap by jumping past it?


And I showed many ways to enhance the unarmed strike to produce 300 damage or so per round at level 16. Or was it 15? Do not remember right now.
If I recall correctly, a number of those ways were rather controversial, and led to their own Monk-debate threads. Like whether magical gauntlets were a good solution.


Help! The monk uses actions to do something. Like..er...everyone else?
Again, there seems to be a fundamental difference between your experience and others'. In this case, it's "how much of a problem is it when a character wastes a round or two buffing himself before he can be effective at fighting?" And most people seem to think it's a big problem. You don't seem to ... or you're relying on "encounter timing control" (as I talked about earlier) even more than I thought.

By the way, I haven't seen you respond to the Table of Expendable Wealth that got posted. It seemed like a very interesting argument to me, and you seem to be recommending spending a lot more on UMD-items than that Table would allow you to use.


Sigh. I have shown in the guide how it's possible to combine move with flurry.
:smallconfused: I don't remember that. Core only? In one round, move and flurry? I don't think that's possible, shuriken/sai attacks aside.


Yes. A 14 stat means "sucking". Strangely enough, the stats are just fine as they are.
14 is fine, for a secondary stat at Level 1. But you don't have any score above 14, and you can't afford to keep boosting all of the stats that are important to a Monk.


Tell me a way to avoid grapple without freedom of movement. And higher grapple check does not count, since it was shown already that the monk has a higher grapple check most of the time.
Dimension Door. Escape Artist (& Tumble).


That means you'll need to roll high all your career to hit any real ACs.

Touch AC up to level 8? Not so much.
I think he was talking about after Level 8, when you're supposed to be doing something besides grapple.


And at the high levels when divine power is there?
You're going to burn 700 gp on a Scroll of Divine Power every battle after Level 8? :smallconfused:

Or not? That's one thing that's confused me about your guide all along. In what percentage of battles are you expecting to have which buffs, more or less?


**They can't get high AC since they can't afford high Dex and Wis.

Strangely enough, my build can.
AC 23 at Level 10 is in no way "high." It's pretty low.


7 skill points per level is all this build needed.
... since it didn't care about Balance, Climb, Jump, ...

[Sir Giacomo]

So, what you're saying here is, "I understand D&D and optimize better than the people on the CharOp boards, who give us the most powerful builds--core or not--in the game."

That's awfully modest of you.

Ah...twisting what I said...
No, Reel On, Love. I criticised many of what so far those who posted over there at that thread posted - some even admitted that they did not read my guide but still they found it proper to comment it's worthless.
There are many threads on the WoTC optimisation boards going on - heated debates of great fighter optimisers like Aelyrinth and Argaud and Khan the Destroyer against some of the wizard optimisers. So there is controversy there as well.
There was even one about monks where despite emeraldstreak's great proof of how powerful the size stacking rules make monk damage output even at mid-levels outside core. Of course it got denied by the wizard fans. Why they and you do that, although you maintain here and there that you'd love to play a strong non-caster and not have to face this dominance of casters in DD 3.5, I have no clue.

And before I go to bed at long last now, @Fenix of Doom. You want even MORE hard numbers than I already provided in the most detailed level-by-level guide of any character class on these boards yet?
Well...no. I left the wand budget flexible for a reason: to offer it plenty of room for interpretation for plenty of tactics that will depend on the campaign and fellow pcs entirely.
What I DID show already several times was, that by level 10, the Joker monk will have been able to cast a 1st level spell a thousand times (and yes, Hide from Animals can also be put inside a wand and can help the whole group clearing an animal encounter)
A 2nd level spell? Over 150 times.
Number of encounters up to level 10? 140.

You derive the rest.

Good night.

- Giacomo

[Worira]

Talic, keep in mind that you have to spend an attack every round to maintain a pin, and that you can always fail them.

Giacomo, I simply cannot manage to add up the items in your 20th level build the same way twice, but as far as I can tell, it breaks WBL by the DMG chart, although not by Talic's chart. So that seems a tad counterproductive on his part.

[Sir Giacomo]

Just a quick jump back from the bed (and back):

Thanks, Draz74 - this post was a highly constructive one, and I'll answer to it asap. (tomorrow).

As for now: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

- Giacomo

[Collin152]

We should make a list of all of the Great Posters, each with their own unique title
from
EE

Who am I?
The Mindrapist?

[tyckspoon]

IF you hit with all atacks, which are at -4 penalty. Where did you get the idea that in grapple you need to hit only touch AC? It only says that you can make an attack against the opponent you're grappling at a -4 penalty.

That's a really good question. The only place where you use a touch attack is when trying to start a grapple- it's Step 2, Grab. Everything else either requires you to make an opposed grapple check, which has nothing at all to do with AC, or to make a normal attack against full AC at -4 in order to use a weapon in a grapple.

[SamTheCleric]

Take a look at my UMD Expert. Then take a look at your Joker Monk. THEY ARE THE SAME THING!

AMF tactic? Ok, I can use that on you as well. But I can also use Disjunction, Force Cage, Maze... you know, the things that you have -no- chance at casting with your UMD.

That's the thing... everything you can do with Joker, I can do with the Expert. Which leads us back to this solid point...

You don't have a monk. You have a UMD using person, which is fine... but you may as well get one with the skill your basing your ENTIRE build on... as a class skill.

[Serenity]

And why, exactly, wouldn't the wizard you're facing have buddies? That's a large part of the wizards modus operandi: rather than wasting resources chipping away hit points, they use their spells to immobilize or inconvenience opponents, who the Rogues and Fighters can then mop up with ease. If the wizard casts a Grease spell, you, a monk with no ranks in Balance will be flat-footed. If you move, it is highly likely that you will fall down. If the Wizard has buddies, they will waste you. And that's assuming the Wizard himself isn't, say, a Stone Giant or some other big bruiser that can pull double duty. The fact of the matter is that most combats will either be against a relatively large number of enemies--in which case, one of them will probably make Julienne fries out of you while you try to grapple their buddies--or a single particularly powerful enemy, who is often immune to grappling due to size/freedom of movement/being easily able to refuse entering melee range.

Your build relies on buffs from UMD, which it has been demonstrated time and again that you cannot use reliably for a long, long time. You further rely on partially charged wands to even be able to make use of UMD in the first place at low levels. These are not purchasable items beyond character creation. You further assume that the vast majority of the time you'll be able to plan extensively and control the encounters, which just doesn't match the reality of play.

[Signmaker]

Question.

You mention the validity of Grappling with Flurries as "Obvious".

Please quote the text, with bolded statement that makes said above statement true? Last I checked, Talic did that to prove his point. People tend to believe his arguments more. Savvy?

Repost, as Giacomo did not answer.

[Turcano]

What I feel is lacking so far here in this thread is a discussion of what is really still a problem with the joker build. Instead, I feel a lot of emotional responses coming up (even disguised in jestful form). The reason is probably that you all like playing casters (in particular the arcane kind) so much - and you behave as if I were your DM and would send an npc monk your way that actually caused trouble using the normal core rules.
In this case I point you again to what I wrote in the introduction. This is a guide intended for players who wish to play monks but get laughed at by their fellow caster players, or for DMs wishing to make npc monks more ofa challenge (although the wbl would be much less then).

If you want constructive criticism with a minimum of snark, I'll take a shot at it.

The main, overarching problem with your build is that you're biting off way more than you can chew. You're trying to fill three or four roles (depending on whether you count scouting and trapfinding as one or two roles), none of which the monk was really built for, and so the build is subpar at all of them. Jacks-of-all-trades are not where it's at in D&D. This is reflected in your starting stats: four 14s is suboptimal no matter what class you're playing.

Grappling isn't the best idea for monks in the first place (yes, I know, it's one of the monk's combat styles, but remember that rangers get two-weapon fighting as a combat style); you have a medium attack bonus and mediocre Strength, so anything your size or bigger with a higher strength score is probably going to out-grapple you. Grappling is a two-way street, and you really don't want to be on the receiving end of it. Also, I have no idea where you got the idea that flurry of blows translates to multiple grapple checks; flurry of blows is a full attack action, not separate standard actions (otherwise you could flurry and move in the same turn), and initiating a grapple check of any kind is a standard action.

Scouting really isn't the monk's forte, either. Unless you boost your Intelligence and thereby hamstring some other needed stat, you simply don't have enough skill points to go around. Movement speed is only necessary if you're running away, and that's something you really shouldn't be doing as a scout (not being detected in the first place should be your primary goal).

The monk is really not made to handle traps, either. You don't have class skills for dealing with traps, or class features (which even the barbarian has), so your only options for dealing with a trap is to either set them off deliberately and pray that your saves or touch AC get you through, or to bypass the trap (assuming you know it's even there) in a way that screws the rest of your party (unless the trapmaker was kind enough to leave a shutoff switch on the other side).

And the monk's use of UMD... well, you're outclassed by an expert half your level. And you're spending way too much money for your magic items, especially when they go fizzle (which they will, because your UMD isn't high enough for the majority of the game). And if you can only afford to buff yourself every other or every third encounter... well, I don't have to tell you how that's going end.

In essence, you're trying to make the monk into something it isn't. The monk is supposed to be an opportunistic fighter, providing flanking and other support where it is needed; this is why the monk has movement speed bonuses and high defense. You're trying to make him into half-brawler, half-rogue, and the results aren't pretty.

[Solo]

The reason is probably that you all like playing casters (in particular the arcane kind) so much
In my RL campaign, I play a Barbarian charger.


Of all classes except the rogue, the monk is best fit to trigger and survive traps. (courtesy the great monk school of lord_khaine).

Barbarians.

Druids (summon animal, use animal as bait)

And isn't triggering traps and having to make saves a rather inefficient means of trapfinding?


Being fast is another part. so let us say both monk and rogue have their scout uses/niches, OK?
And how do you plan on finding/disabling traps? That's part of scouting, isn't it?


Actually, with the speed, you can JUMP over whole trap areas.
And you'll carry our party with you, I imagine?


AC 23 at Level 10 is in no way "high." It's pretty low.

Verily.


You're trying to make him into half-brawler, half-rogue, and the results aren't pretty.
And half-caster on top of that.

[Rutee]

Erm. Without significant optimization, a swordsage/wizard I made has almost a 23 when fully buffed, and she's only level 5. If *I* can optimize a DnD stat anywhere near as high as you have, Gia, you've gotta look back at your stuff. And no, none of that "None core!!!111oneoneonetwo". The AC is, with the exception of 1 point from Desert Wind Dodge, totally from Core and Monk-like features.

[Arbitrarity]

Repost, as Giacomo did not answer.

Last time, I was defending that preposition (Because when helping someone, rules iffy muchkining is always an option).

Um. Somewhere in the FAQ, it says, and I copy/paste

Can a monk make disarm, sunder, and trip attacks
during her flurry of blows? What about grapple checks?
What about bull rushes, overruns, or other special combat
maneuvers?
As long as every attack is made with one of the monk’s
special weapons (that is, weapons allowed as part of a flurry),
the monk can perform any special attack that takes the place of
a normal attack. She’s free to disarm, sunder, trip, and grapple
to her heart’s content.
She couldn’t bull rush or overrun (since those don’t use
special monk weapons), nor could she aid another (which
requires a standard action) or feint (which requires a move
action).
However, it could be argued that grapple checks in a grapple don't count as normal attack replacements, since grapple checks refer only to BAB for number of uses (see below). This may refer to initiating grapple attempts.

If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

Or, this could mean you can make multiple grapple attempts with, say, flurry, but only with +6 or more BAB. Which seems unlikely.

[Frosty]

Hey Giacomo, since you always complain about not knowing what the Factotum is, here (I can also PM to you if you wish instead)

Factotum info: *self-delorted for now* Tell me if you want me to email/pm it to you or something.

[Vortling]

Frosty, I don't think you're allowed to post that here. It's not under the Open Game License.

[Solo]

I don't think Rich approves.

[Animefunkmaster]

However, it could be argued that grapple checks in a grapple don't count as normal attack replacements, since grapple checks refer only to BAB for number of uses (see below). This may refer to initiating grapple attempts.

You beat me to that FAQ quote good sir, well done. I think it is clear that this refers to initiating a grapple. However this line in the srd shows what can be done once the grapple has been established:


If You’re Grappling

When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.
<Snip>
Pin Your Opponent

You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack). Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you (see below).

So it would seem that one could theoretically be pinned in a single round, from a Monk Flurrying. In addition, the Monk should have some more attacks to get a few pot shots in.

[Frosty]

We're using it for discussion purposes. I'm sure there's something in terms of Fair Use that we can claim?

[Rutee]

Your Flurry is not your BAB. Using a Flurry is a full attack action. At no point does the grappling thing say you may make a full attack action.


We're using it for discussion purposes. I'm sure there's something in terms of Fair Use that we can claim?
It's the forum rules that screw you, not Fair Use.

[Frosty]

Your Flurry is not your BAB. Using a Flurry is a full attack action. At no point does the grappling thing say you may make a full attack action.

Rutee. You are brilliant.

[Rutee]

Rutee. You are brilliant.

And possibly driving an armored humvee through RAI, with machine guns blazing and jury rigged stereo playing Freebird at full blast.

[Frosty]

By RAI, do you think monk flurry was envisioned to work as extra grapple attempts?

[marjan]

And possibly driving an armored humvee through RAI, with machine guns blazing and jury rigged stereo playing Freebird at full blast.

I didn't know Arnold Schwarzeneger had an account on GitP. :smallbiggrin: