Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

[Ulzgoroth]

I have to agree that 'hostile monk casting timestop' (brain dribbling out ears...) seems to be an action entailing impending danger for the wizard. Especially if you think foresight works by temporal lookahead (in which case it sees 'AMF in 1 second').

I think Giacomo's theory is that the timestop isn't a danger in its own right, and by the time the monk is actually nearby or casting AMF, he's moving in stopped time so even celerity is too slow.

[Frosty]

We're giving Foresight too much credit though. It can't possibly warn the mage about every possible hostile action from every creature in the multiverse against him. There's gotta be *some* range limit.

[Caros]

I believe the point is, that Foresight only gets actions that WOULD happen without caster intervention.

Someone thinking "I'm gonna do this, this, this and this" doesn't qualify, since, without the mage's intervention, nothing would happen.

What foresight says in this case is. "You're going to be in serious danger in a moment."

The mage then hits celerity and leaves the area, or does any number of other things I can't be bothered to come up with. ^_^

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Hey I found a bug:

You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop.
So if you cast an AMF around you, you are now in an illegal position, so you move out of the AMF to your last legal position, but the AMF moves with you and the universe explodes.

[Frosty]

According to Giacomo, the AMF ends the timestop prematurely.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

According to Giacomo, the AMF ends the timestop prematurely.

And since when is Giacomo the end of end all of rules knowledge?

[Frosty]

He's not, but that's his interpretation and why he pushes it. I can see his position, and I feel his interpretation is quite reasonable.

[Andras]

According to Giacomo, the AMF ends the timestop prematurely.

So either:

-the timestop pops into existence, then immediately pops out because it's illegal, thus gaining you absolutely nothing

or

-the timestop works, but as fenix_of_doom said, would propel you indefinitely outside your own range, thus gaining you absolutely nothing (and probably killing you).

Why is either a good idea? :smallconfused:

[Frosty]

You do Timestop first, then you RUN UP TO THE MAGE. Then you UMD AMF. Then Timestop will become illegal and end.

You are now next to the mage...with both you inside the AMF.

[Caros]

I get Giacomo's attack form here, and it actually doesn't seem to be that bad of one. Its the traditional scry'n'die modified to target casters.

That said however its got a whole host of problems:

Foresight should technically defeat it, at least the way I read it.

Contingency: Teleport me to my safe room if I am ever about to enter an anti-magic Field beats it.

Non-Core: Anticipate teleport spells are hilarious. (You are in timestop, you appear, are hit by anticipate teleport, are dropped into the 3 round holding tank, which causes some really screwed up mechanics in and of itself. Invoked spells (spells that can be cast in antimagic, see Lords of madness) would allow the mage to celerity out. God help you if the mage has Initiate of Mystra.

Mindblank probably beats this, as the monk is most likely scrying on the wizard to get his location during the timestop.

An actual caster could actually pull off this tactic a little better, if only by getting rid of the antimagic field junk which is a lot scarrier in theory than in practice.

[Andras]

Yeah, foresight/contingency would almost definitely take care of that, that's what they're there for.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

You do Timestop first, then you RUN UP TO THE MAGE. Then you UMD AMF. Then Timestop will become illegal and end.

You are now next to the mage...with both you inside the AMF.

well timestop is an instantaneous spell, CLW is an instantaneous spell, so if I cast AMF after I cast CLW then CLW stops working?

that's what you're arguing, it doesn't make sense within the rules that's why they added the clause I quoted above.
Edit:
Also I don't think the universe ends, either it moves you back to the place of your birth and then wipes you from existence or somehow the AMF get's cancelled by timestop.




Contingency: Teleport me to my safe room if I am ever about to enter an anti-magic Field beats it.


I don't think contingency is able to detect AMF's so I don't think that'll work

[Caros]

I don't think contingency is able to detect AMF's so I don't think that'll work

Depends on your DM I suppose. Most people I've gamed with have always treated Contingency in that, so long as its clearly worded and observable, the spell will know. *Shrug*

[Frosty]

Timestop has apparent duration. If I were the DM, I'd rule that AMF tries to suppress Timestop, but since Tmestop has an actual duration of instantaneous (fluff-wise, it's like a milli-second), the duration runs out the moment it is suppressed.

[Emperor Tippy]

RAW you can not cast an AMF that includes yourself while under the effects of a time stop. This is quite clear. When you are under the effects of a Time Stop spell you can not enter the area of an AMF, it is physically impossible. Casting an AMF that would include yourself is likewise impossible, the spell just fails because it has no valid target.

You can ready an action to cast AMF as soon as your Time Stop ends but all that means is that the mage just takes a move action to get away and then casts Resilient Sphere on you.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

RAW you can not cast an AMF that includes yourself while under the effects of a time stop. This is quite clear. When you are under the effects of a Time Stop spell you can not enter the area of an AMF, it is physically impossible. Casting an AMF that would include yourself is likewise impossible, the spell just fails because it has no valid target.

You can ready an action to cast AMF as soon as your Time Stop ends but all that means is that the mage just takes a move action to get away and then casts Resilient Sphere on you.

Well here's an anti-celerity Idea, if you ready your action on a mage casting a spell and a mage casts celerity, doesn't that mean you get to interrupt celerity?

[Rachel Lorelei]

So, Giacomo's new strategy boils down to... using high-UMD-DC scrolls for the traditional caster cheatery of teleporting in during a Time Stop and trying to set up a "sure kill" before his opponent can react?

If only there were some class other than the Monk suited to casting spells and using scrolls and wands. Some class that could cast spells and use scrolls easily. Oh, well. They really should make one of those.

And if only there were some prestige class for mixing it with melee combat--a "Magical Knight", only named something less silly... nah, it could never work.

[Skjaldbakka]

RAW you can not cast an AMF that includes yourself while under the effects of a time stop. This is quite clear. When you are under the effects of a Time Stop spell you can not enter the area of an AMF, it is physically impossible. Casting an AMF that would include yourself is likewise impossible, the spell just fails because it has no valid target.

You can ready an action to cast AMF as soon as your Time Stop ends but all that means is that the mage just takes a move action to get away and then casts Resilient Sphere on you.

Strikes me as more of a grey area. Which is the opposite of 'quite clear'. Just because you decided a long time ago how you rule something, and have always done it that way, does not mean it is 'quite clear by the RAW', Tippy.

Unless there was an errata of some sort, the interpretation of "casting AMF ends the Time Stop effect" is equally valid.



So, Giacomo's new strategy boils down to... using high-UMD-DC scrolls for the traditional caster cheatery of teleporting in during a Time Stop and trying to set up a "sure kill" before his opponent can react?

No, that is a tactic for dealing with DMNPC wizard that you aren't supposed to possibly be able to kill. Or possibly the BBEG wizard. Also the party wizard, although why you're trying to kill that I don't know. I've never run into an NPC wizard that did all the crazy prep magic that people just 'assume' all wizards have up all the time. PCs do that all the time.

Even if the wizard does contingency-celerity-foresight hose the monk, he just blew his contingency-celerity-foresight combo to hose the monk, and 3/4 of the party is free to gank when ready. I would argue that knocking out the enemy wizard's high level expendable protectives at the beginning of the fight is contributing.

[MeklorIlavator]

Well here's an anti-celerity Idea, if you ready your action on a mage casting a spell and a mage casts celerity, doesn't that mean you get to interrupt celerity?

I don't think you can ready an action until combat starts, as readying an action requires one to have and initiative count. Thus the wizard still wins as he goes before initiative is rolled.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

I don't think you can ready an action until combat starts, as readying an action requires one to have and initiative count. Thus the wizard still wins as he goes before initiative is rolled.

well if you get a surprise round I suppose you could ready that action, I could be mistaken though.

[Ulzgoroth]

I don't think you can ready an action until combat starts, as readying an action requires one to have and initiative count. Thus the wizard still wins as he goes before initiative is rolled.
You have just done terrible things to reality. Or at least invited them....:smallamused:

Ok. So, I'm playing a monk (Did I say that? Noooo....), ok, not a monk, any character at all, and I say, out of the blue, that I'm going to ready an action. I don't think it matters what action, or what trigger. There is no combat going on at the time, and we were not playing on initiative until the moment that I said that.

What happens?

If readying an action is a detectable to someone else, it presumably should mean that we roll initiative right then, and others with better initiatives might go before my ready action. If it isn't detectable, it should probably happen in an immediate surprise round, everyone starts acting on initiative perhaps...but no one knows it, so presumably they remain flatfooted, etc, and do not do things like suddenly cast celerity and teleport away from me. Normally, readying an action is probably not obvious, but foresight might correct for that.

Of course, the real oddness here is that the character initiating combat actions is doing so inside a time stop, which pretty much makes a mess of rolling initiative. But are they really? I'd say, start of initiative is when they cast time stop, but (unless you rule that foresight warns them) the wizard has no way of knowing that, and so although they can act instantly at that point, or indeed any point, they don't do so because they have no reason to.

[Frosty]

Even if the wizard does contingency-celerity-foresight hose the monk, he just blew his contingency-celerity-foresight combo to hose the monk, and 3/4 of the party is free to gank when ready. I would argue that knocking out the enemy wizard's high level expendable protectives at the beginning of the fight is contributing.

He is contribution for sure. But he's not contributing as much compared to a *lot* of the other classes out there, or that's how the argument goes at least.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Even if the wizard does contingency-celerity-foresight hose the monk, he just blew his contingency-celerity-foresight combo to hose the monk, and 3/4 of the party is free to gank when ready. I would argue that knocking out the enemy wizard's high level expendable protectives at the beginning of the fight is contributing.

The wizards celerity didn't blow, neither did his foresight, you can still use both. If you want to use contingency at teleport when somebody teleports next to me or something, then you do blow that one, but then again, the monk used a timestop/teleport so I guess that's okay

[Behold_the_Void]

What are the Giamonk's chances of UMDing Timestop and AMF in one go, out of curiosity? What level is this even viable in the slightest?

[Rachel Lorelei]

Unless there was an errata of some sort, the interpretation of "casting AMF ends the Time Stop effect" is equally valid.
To sum up: the DM decides, so this probably isn't a reliable tactic.


No, that is a tactic for dealing with DMNPC wizard that you aren't supposed to possibly be able to kill. Or possibly the BBEG wizard.
Why not just have the wizard do the timestop-teleport-kill thing, then?

Not that any player should go "I timestop-teleport-kill the BBEG!" or any DM should allow it. It's on par with "we gate in an epic monster that kills him, tee-hee".



Even if the wizard does contingency-celerity-foresight hose the monk, he just blew his contingency-celerity-foresight combo to hose the monk, and 3/4 of the party is free to gank when ready. I would argue that knocking out the enemy wizard's high level expendable protectives at the beginning of the fight is contributing.
Of course, doing it with UMD is something literally ANYONE can do. Why be a monk, again?

[MeklorIlavator]

The problem being that with the wizard, you don't get the surprise round.

[Frost]

1) Giamoco, the entirety of your argument rests on one very very flawed principle: Non-casters have equal access to nth level spells as casters, where n is every possible spell level.

This is wrong. You can not afford to remain shapechanged all day for even a single day, you cannot shapechange every single day for two weeks without giving up everything else.

You cannot use Timestop/AMF as a battle tactic because after using it for just 5 days you will have expended more then half your WBL.

There is no such thing as Monk that can use Superior invisibility even once a day, a "custom item" of Superior Invisibility would cost you 480,000gp, more then half your level 20 WBL and therefore not something you could ever buy.

Non-Casters do not have absolute access to all spells. In fact, to even UMD Timestop you must succeed on two consecutive UMD checks of DCs 39 and 37. Then you would need to, during that very limited duration Timestop, after having spent at least one round and probably more moving, Make two successful UMD checks of DC 36 and 31. Your Monk cannot do this!

2) As regards the absolute crap strategy of TimeStop/AMF you forgot the most important part:

Step 1: Find Wizard (very difficult, numerous contentious rulings)
Step 2: Make ridiculously High UMD checks to activate Timestop.
Step 3: Move adjacent to Wizard (Contingency/Foresight ruling discussions go here)
Step 4: Make incredibly difficult UMD checks for AMF (More Contingency/Foresight Rulings)
Step 5: Fall 40ft and take 1d6-3d6 damage.
Step 6: Due to the rules for falling stating that falling only occurs on your turn, Wizard is outside of AMF and does not fall (insert houserule that Wizard falls too)
Step 7: Roll Init, or Wizard's turn after you used standard action to UMD.
Step 8: Wizard withdraws 30ft sideways and 60ft straight up.
Step 9: Cry, Wizard will soon kill you. Alternatively dismiss AMF and cry.
Step 10: Wizard kills you.

Compare this to a Wizard attempting the same tactic (on anyone including other Wizards who are stupid enough to be found or on enemies.)

Step 0: Have Shapechange cast on self and shared with familiar
Step 1: Find opponent
Step 2: Cast Timestop (shared with Familiar) (autosuccess because we are a class that can cast spells)
Step 3: Move above target, also have familiar do same.
Step 4: Familiar free action shifts into a Beholder with AMF ray pointed directly at target, and readies action to turn AMF field to keep target in it (or move to keep target in it)
Step 5: You shift into a Choker or Chronotryrn depending on personal meanness, then use multiple standard actions in timestop to lay down walls of force around target or barred cage Forcecage or nothing if really confident.
Step 6: When Timestop ends use Orbs of Fire.

See how we took the very sucky strategy that doesn't really work, involves numerous questionable rules interpretations and incredibly convoluted builds that blow 1/150th of it's total level 20 WBL per fight not counting anything but those two scrolls.

And then we made it:
1) Infinitely cheaper
2) Much much more effective
3) removed all those rules questions except Contingency (which we can just remove by attacking the Giamonk instead of a Wizard).

Amazing what Wizards can do isn't it?

[Emperor Tippy]

Strikes me as more of a grey area. Which is the opposite of 'quite clear'. Just because you decided a long time ago how you rule something, and have always done it that way, does not mean it is 'quite clear by the RAW', Tippy.

Unless there was an errata of some sort, the interpretation of "casting AMF ends the Time Stop effect" is equally valid.
No its really not.

TS has an instantaneous duration (which is why you can't persist it). It wouldn't be ended by an AMF even if the relevant line from the TS description was removed. Just like an AMF wouldn't end Mind Rape.

TS also has this line
You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop.

That line has no ambiguity at all. Casting an AMF would cause you to enter the area of the AMF, which the rules are quite clear you cannot do. That means that the only valid ruling is that you can not cast AMF while under the effects of a Time Stop if the AMF would include yourself. I suppose you could argue that it just ends the universe/kills the user/ shunts the user infinetly far away.

[Freelance Henchman]

Amazing what Wizards can do isn't it?

Well yes, but Monks run really fast and don't need much in the way of items because they fight unarmed and only wear simple robes! :smallcool:

[Reinboom]

Taking from level 20 of Gia's builds.
Use Magic Device +19
That's with 9 CHA.
So, lets pump it to emphasis instead. (18 + 4 from levels) - so 22.
That's a +7 increase.
+26

You need a 19+15 (34) DC UMD check to pretend to have int 19.
You need to make a UMD of 20+17 (37) to use the time stop.
(Not sure where you get 39 and 37 there Frost.. ability score is only a 15 difference, not a 20).

Anyways.
8 and higher succeed for stat. 65% chance.
11 and higher succeed for caster level. 50% chance.

So, this modified monk would have a 32.5% chance of getting the time stop off.

Initial build (the +19) would have:
15 and higher succeed for stat. 30% chance.
18 and higher succeed for caster level. 15% chance.
4.5% chance of getting the time stop off. Which is less of a chance than hoping to get a natural 20 once.

[dman11235]

Okay, you know why wizards win? They know everything about you. When you're going to attack included. But they know where you are, what you're doing, and everything about your loved ones too. Then they can proceed to cast spells of various sorts until you're dead. Methods vary. They can, for instance, Mind Rape some commoner into loving you, and then cast Love's Pain on them until you're dead. No matter where you are, no save, no SR, planar boundaries don't even block it, you're dead. You don't even know what hit you. Or they can decide that they want to face you head on, so they can construct a spell turret. Meaning they possess a block of Obdurium or something that they cast Hardness and other hardening spells on it, and thus have a hardness 80 body. You can't even hurt it. Assuming you can see it, since it's invisible, with a permanent Invisibility spell cast on it. It was an object, so it qualifies. Or, here's another one. About to enter battle that they know is going to happen (Foresight, various other divinations), or first round, they cast Time Stop (extend it via MM rod) and during it they cast Gate or some other big summoning spell, put a Ring Gate on the creature, move away, cast Wall of Stone and Prismatic Sphere and Shapechange into an incorporeal undead, occupying the stone inside the PS. Then proceed to blast you through the Ring Gate held by that Great Wyrm Gold Dragon using various spells. Or they want to beat you at your own game. Since this thread seem to like grapple so much, they Shape Change into some big nasty grapple monster. Polymorph works just as well. They are now better than you at melee. Since grapple is vastly overrated, and yet overpowered at the same time, they just want to beat you in melee. Polymorph into the correct creature, you're set. Add in the vast number of buffs the wizard gets...it's over. And there are many more than just one to do these things.

Now that that's out of the way, Your guide is very lacking. Grapple...monks are bad at it. Touch attack to start? Yeah...good job. Now make your grapple check. Can't do it? Why? I thought monks were good at grappling? Maybe the high MAD (requiring str, wis, dex, con) reduced the str you could have had...and you have med BAB...and no way to grow...meanwhile that straight barbarian is up around +11 on you, +15 with the Bear Totem from UA (SRD, look it up). That's a straight barbarian. He can afford to focus more on str than you, because he doesn't need wis or dex as much as you do. Simply dip two levels of monk and take the rest psychic warrior and full BAB classes and you'll be amazing at grappling. Even just straight psywar. They get Expansion and Grip of Iron. Though a simple 4th level spell negates this bonus. Don't even bring AMF into this, since you can't cast it.

Now, I should debunk your myth myths.

1) Monks are very MAD. They require high wis, con, str, and dex in order to function well. By focusing on battlefield control you can eliminate dex and wis and con all as primary stats, by not allowing your opponent to take a swing at you, and with the Fist of the Forest PrC, you ease the strain a bit on your AC stats (wis and dex). Even still, unless focusing on them your AC will be low. Int is still not a dump stat because you have a nice skill list, and a couple knowledge skills on it. You'll want some. Cha is the ONLY stat a monk can afford to dump. And even then some builds require it. Wizards, however, only need int. Dex and con are secondary to it. Sorcerers need cha. Clerics need wis and maybe str and con. Druids need wis.

2)a) monks can't grapple well. Their damage may be superior to everyone else, but they can't win the grapple checks. And the base damage doesn't matter much even, at level 20 the only difference being an average of 10 isn't much. Actually less, since you had to spend resources elsewhere and don't have as high of a str score as a barbarian, for instance. Also, you can't flurry grapple checks for damage. Grapple checks for damage are a standard action.

2)b) fastest scout: the Scout. And he can remain undetected. And put that otherwise high speed to good use in battle. Monks need full attacks.

2)c)best defenses non-spell: yes, they do. It ends after level...2. They odn't get Uncanny Dodge. Spell Resistance hurts you more than it helps (you need buffs from party members). The immunities are to mundane things that never really get seen.

2)d) Highest base damage: yes. If a difference of 4 points of damage (actually much less, those guys swinging a sword are sitting there with 2xstr to damage and a magic sword compared to your max 4d8+str) matters in a late game, call me. I'll have to eat my hat. Now, if you exit monk early (level 6 LATEST) you can get upwards of 16d8 base damage, and then...then you're doing some noticeable damage. Also, you can't get your fist enchanted as a magic weapon. It's not a manufactured weapon, nor is it masterwork. It's a natural weapon that acts as a manufactured weaopn for a lot of things.

3) ..what? So reliance on others to prove that you are good...proves you are good on your...own? How? The fact that you rely on others to prove your worth...proves that THEY are good. Not you. And if you want to spend some of your precious skill points and stat points on UMD, by all means, go right ahead. And then still rely on expendables to do your job. Wow.

4)....wat....Monks are THE most item dependent class in core. Probably out of core as well, only possible contender is the CW Samurai. Let's see, you need your wis, dex, con, str boosts, cha boosts as well since you wanted UMD, tomes and enhancement bonuses alone cost a lot...magic weapon...you need the AoMF in core (or better yet: permanent GMFang a couple times at CL 20), out of you NEED the NoNA...armor, natural and regular, deflection, skill boosts, miscellaneous boosts, flight, more attack boosts, Pearls of Power for those friendly spell caster so gracious to let you take their spells so you can be competent, etc. You really think that they are more item dependent that the sorcerer who needs....charisma boosts? I didn't even count the other things that you'd want rather than need.

5) True, you don't want to be in melee for long, since the enemy will probably kill you in one full attack, you AC and HP are so low. Not to mention that your favorite maneuver, grapple, relies on high str AND BAB. Two things the monk does not have, one if he neglects dex and/ or wis for str. There are ways to fix this. PrCs and multi-classing are the two best ways, relying on friendlies to give up half their resources to make you competent is another. Note that stunning usually fails as well, since the fort save DC is so low. DC 10+10+wis at level 20, where as fort saves are usually around 15+con, and their con is bigger than your wis. And yes, this is even core only. Go out, it's all over. And at the end, where you go over other houserules....slow fall is useful how? A 2,000 gp ring does the same thing, only MUCH better. Skills? So you spend 6 points at character creation on int, leaving fewer for other, more important, stats. That is supposed to be a good thing? Again, MAD.

6) That's...right...Spring attack is a trap. For everyone. Don't take it, ever. If you must be mobile like that, try a Scout with a fly speed and use Fly By Attack.

III
1)Grappling: Grappling is THE weak melee/ranged character bane. Nothing more. Casters are either immune or will never let you near them. You can't beat melees because you have a lower BAB and str. At low levels you still can't beat the melees because of str/BAB issues, but casters don't yet have immunities fully to everything ever. They still are nigh impossible to get to, through their myriad of summons/walls/fogs/etc. Also, you go on to say sunder the ring....first of just about every caster can cast it, and second off, never destroy your own loot!!!!! Sunder is even more of a trap than SA.

2) Monks have the lowest AC of melees. Slight exaggeration, since rogues CAN have a lowr AC and so can rangers, but not by much. Certainly less than a heavy armor fighter or cleric. Their saves are all good, that's nice but nothing major (casters have better). The immunities don't often help much. They are very MAD so can't afford to have high HP. Good defenses how again?

3) When to quit monk: 2, 3, or 6. Or 4. Never any later. Any later, and you miss out on too many things. Heck, if you really want Greater Flurry (why? It's just one attack) go monk 2/psychic warrior 9 and take Tashalatora. Or monk 6/Shou Disciple 5. Never any later than 6. Abilities you gain...Aw, heck, just read the link I'll provide at the end, I don't want to retype it. On the rest...just read the link.

4) :headdesk:

Go here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1015.0) and read that handbook. That's what a monk build should look like. I'm not even getting into the major design problems with the class here. Anyways, I went through each ability, and evaluated it's contribution to the class, bot hon its own, and with regard to other abilities.

Finally, was this a joke thread? Please say so.

[Andras]

Finally, was this a joke thread? Please say so.

This has gotten to page 60. I'm pretty sure he's serious about this.

[Rachel Lorelei]

This has gotten to page 60. I'm pretty sure he's serious about this.

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm4/mgorinev_scans/whyso.jpg

[Benejeseret]

My potential 'monkish' build would leave the monk with much of its feel but certainly not full monk. I do however think the psionic take on a monk fits the 'feel' of my vision of monks well and compliments abilities.

Monk11/War Mind5/Psionic Fist 4

Starting stats: Str 13+ (high), Dex 13+, Wis 13+ (very high)

(m#) monk feat, (h) human feat

Feats: Wild Talent (1st), Improved Grapple (m1), Scorpions Grasp (1h), Lightning reflexes (m2), Versatile Unarmed Strike (3), Improved Trip (m6), Speed of Thought (6), Improved Natural Attack (9) Stunning Fist (12), Pressure Point Strike (15), Rapid Stunning (18).

Suggested Equipment: Monk's Belt and a Psicrown of Expansion/Claws of the Beast/Grip of Iron/Bite of the Wolf with a descent reserve and caster level to supplement when your Power Points get low (high wisdom helps this and stunning fist and AC).

Manifestor lvl = 9. Most important power are Expansion (Huge), Grip of Iron, Claws of the Beast, and Bite of the Wolf. Lvl 2 ability granting Pounce also very, very useful.


The key to much of this is that Sweeping Strike lets all aspects of a melee attack affect 2 opponents and your now 15' reach. Luckily melee touch attacks should fall under a melee attack so that means 2 trip attacks per 'attack' and if tripped you get a free attack, and any attack that hits allows a free grapple attempt....a useful chain of events
- depending on the interpretation this might allow Stunning Fist attacks to affect 2 opponents for 1 use.

If you get to buff your expansion (9 points to be huge for 90 minutes) and swift use of Grip of Iron on top of your War Mind Personal Superiority means you are looking at a +8(size)+8 grip+3 strength bonus (inherent and insight) for a +19 bonus on top of your normal str and str enhancements. Or save your power points and get Gloves of Titan's Grip (or augmented better versions - custom)

Damage of your maxed unarmed strike (improved nat. attack) now Huge should be 6d8 base flurry of +16/+16/+16/+11/+6/+1 (I think) then add on the 2 claw attacks 4d6 and a bite 3d8.

Versatile unarmed strike lets you combine Psionic Keen with your unarmed damage to increase its threat range. Sure 19-20/x2 is not hugely better than the straight 20...but 12d8 base damage crits seems worth it (as well as the increase DR bypass).


He is still a little MAD, a high wisdom is important, so is Str. Dex is nice but if you can reach it you can grapple or trip it and with hustle he can move 210' in a round and still attack so Dex is not 'as' important.

Open to critics as I might actually try this in a future game...

[Andras]

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm4/mgorinev_scans/whyso.jpg

I'll admit it, I laughed.

[tyckspoon]

My potential 'monkish' build would leave the monk with much of its feel but certainly not full monk. I do however think the psionic take on a monk fits the 'feel' of my vision of monks well and compliments abilities.

Monk11/War Mind5/Psionic Fist 4

Starting stats: Str 13+ (high), Dex 13+, Wis 13+ (very high)



Query: Why Monk 11? The benefits of more War Mind/Psionic Fist levels should significantly outweigh anything you can get from more straight Monk levels. I would probably go with something like Monk 6/Psionic Fist 2/War Mind 5/Psionic Fist 7, if you want to emphasize the Monkishness (effective Monk level 15 for speed/unarmed damage/AC bonus. Can reach the level 20 max with a Monk's Belt.) But War Mind would probably be the better choice to receive more levels, as the full BAB and class bonuses are more useful. *Ideally* you would do Monk 3 to get the Still Mind requisite for PsiFist (maybe 4; the base values for the Monk all step up there and Ki Strike (Magic) could be useful) and then go to another full-BAB class for two levels while you finished the skill requisite on Concentration. Fighter would work well enough, I'm sure the build could make good use of those two extra feats... but this is supposed to be a Monk, so I guess we'll keep it to Monk.

Problems: Your build does not have a manifester level of 9. It has manifester levels of War Mind 5/Psionic Fist 4. Those two classes both have their own progression instead of advancing another class's base progression. You can pool the power points (and in fact I think you get to double-dip on the bonus power points, which makes a high Wisdom pay off again), but they maintain separate powers-known lists and have separate manifesting levels. If you want to bump those, you have to take Practiced Manifester. The build I outlined above would let you get to Warmind manifester level 9/Psionic Fist manifester 9, with the addition of Practiced Manifester for the Warmind part. It would also get to pick some higher level powers- 2 4th and one 5th. Like Psionic Freedom of Movement. Or Energy Adaptation. Or Steadfast Perception.. man, PsiWar 4th is a sweet spell level... not so much of use in 5th.

Edit: Oh, hey. If you're willing to mix in some Fighter you could pick Improved Grapple as one of those bonus feats and get Stunning Fist normally at first level as per the more 'traditional' Monk spec. Nice to have around if you're going to be focusing on Wisdom anyways.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hi again,

just jumping in quickly; am a bit time-constrained these days to post.
Again plenty of new posts and new posters, with good ideas, good discussions, plus also the usual mix of (feeble) attempts to ridicule my build and with dman11235 a complete detailed repetition of all fallacies already uttered and disproven way before. Unfortunately, I do not have the time right now to give them the attention they deserve (new posters and readers likely will not have had the opportunity to read the past 60 pages of the thread, so I'm glad to provide a nice roundup in the coming days).
What I liked about dman11235's post, though, is that he added a good link to his guide - which with a first glance appears to be a good non-core compilation of everything around the monk class. It's also a more "classic" approach in that it does not advocate a broad particular build (like my guide does), but lists all kind of monk feats, prestige classes, items etc. Will add it in the external link list of the guide. Thanks!

Thanks also to Benejeseret for providing yet another monk variant build (albeit non-core). As a first feedback, try to also get somehow improved sunder inside (though normally also normal sunder could help) to get rid of those pesky rings of freedom of movement (they will succumb to one of your strikes). As for cast fom's, you may wish to consider AMFs since you unbuffed are still better at grappling casters that are unbuffed.
Then, it depends on what kind of campaign you'll play in. If you plan to take on quite a few casters, maybe you should lower your combat abilities in favour of more stealth and higher DEX (and impr. initiative).

Then onto the timestop/AMF issue.


What I think happens is this:

1: GiaMonk somehow detects the caster before the reverse happens (I have problems with this step. I think both of them will just miss each other)

2: GiaMonk UMDs a few buffs, and then UMDs Timestop from OUTSIDE Foresight range, whatever that is.

3: GiaMonk uses the Monk's HUGE movement speed, and *runs* up next to the caster.

4: GiaMonk then UMDs Anti Magic Field. At this point, magic ceases to function, so Timestop ends, and Foresight may or may not trigger. Roll initiative.

The plan is sound, except I'm not sure how he'll accomplish step 1 against a competent and paranoid (alive) caster.

Yep, I that about sums it up well. It's either the monk's huge movement speed, or a teleport effect.

The foresight spell technically only prevents a surprise round vs the wizard, and provides him with insight bonuses to AC etc. But it does not mean that he casts it, and throughout the duration of the spell, he'll be warned of all actions around him that could possibly, at some distant point in the future, do him harm. That is not what the spell says.

UMDing the 9th level scrolls at high levels is not that much of a deal, since you only need +17 minimum modifier and eventually you'll activate it. When the wizard threat is almost on you, though, you'll need to activate the stuff faster and you'll need to have higher UMD then, of course! Time stop/teleport, though, means you can normally try out the stuff until it works in the peace of your chamber. Then, the AMF is only 6th level and can thus be activated at +30 UMD, not impossible to get by level 20.

Then, you can cast AMF in the time stop. Time stop only says you cannot ENTER an existing AMF, but you can certainly cast one yourself. And the moment you cast AMF, the time stop ends, since its magic is suppressed. That imo is not very much dependent on DM ruling, its fairly obvious from the rules.

Then, the AMF/time stop combo is not the only possiblity to bring down a high-level caster as a non-caster. There may even be mundane methods. But this method is definitely highly dangerous to an even extremely buffed caster. Hence my big advice to caster players even at high levels: do not be too impressed about your magical toys...and try to get also some non-magical escape route.
MUSTS for high-level wizards thus are
- high tumble skill to flee without AoO once caught inside an AMF
- high ride skill to make full use of even non-magical mounts, but definitely also a phantom steed.
etc.

Where I agree with Frosty is, that normally a wizard will detect you more easily than the other way round. But since mind blank is available to both, detecting each other is difficult. A wand of legend lore could help the joker monk here, but it is up to the DM how exact the information is. Consulting a bard npc (with lore ability) is an avenue for both (a wizard can even enter the loremaster prestige class, a favourite of mine).

Basically, at high level play the theoretical (magic and mundane) defense/hiding possibilities are so vast that it could mean a boring stalemate if taken to the extreme on both sides.
But luckily, the adventures at those levels are set up in a way that either a monk or wizard pc (or both) would need to somehow do something to overcome a BBEG monk or wizard npc (or both) from achieving their sinister ends. So it's a dynamic environment, in which a lot can happen.

- Giacomo

[Caros]

Yep, I that about sums it up well. It's either the monk's huge movement speed, or a teleport effect.

The foresight spell technically only prevents a surprise round vs the wizard, and provides him with insight bonuses to AC etc. But it does not mean that he casts it, and throughout the duration of the spell, he'll be warned of all actions around him that could possibly, at some distant point in the future, do him harm. That is not what the spell says.

Then, you can cast AMF in the time stop. Time stop only says you cannot ENTER an existing AMF, but you can certainly cast one yourself. And the moment you cast AMF, the time stop ends, since its magic is suppressed. That imo is not very much dependent on DM ruling, its fairly obvious from the rules.

Then, the AMF/time stop combo is not the only possiblity to bring down a high-level caster as a non-caster. There may even be mundane methods. But this method is definitely highly dangerous to an even extremely buffed caster. Hence my big advice to caster players even at high levels: do not be too impressed about your magical toys...and try to get also some non-magical escape route.
MUSTS for high-level wizards thus are
- high tumble skill to flee without AoO once caught inside an AMF
- high ride skill to make full use of even non-magical mounts, but definitely also a phantom steed.
etc.

- Giacomo

Okay... I've taken the time to calm down from how rage filled I was upon initially reading your post, so that I can say this as kindly as possible.

Giacomo: Read the damn book! Then comment. In that order preferably. It seems to be the single greatest flaw you have in your discussions is that you comment on how you think things work, not as how they are.

I hate to repeat quotes but:


The foresight spell technically only prevents a surprise round vs the wizard, and provides him with insight bonuses to AC etc. But it does not mean that he casts it, and throughout the duration of the spell, he'll be warned of all actions around him that could possibly, at some distant point in the future, do him harm. That is not what the spell says.[/quote

Now, this is funny, because if you actually read the spell?

[quote=Foresight]Once foresight is cast, you recieve instantanious warnings of impending danger or harm to the subject of the spell. Thus, if you are the subject of the spell, you would be warned in advance if a rogue were about to attempt a sneak attack on you, or if a creature were aobut to leap from a hiding place, Or if an attacker were specifically targeting you with a spell or ranged weapon.

The whole paragraph is useful to the discussion, but I think the bolded text speaks for itself no? The spell goes on to say that, when cast on another person, you still recieve the warnings instead of them. In that case, it suggests that you have time to shout out, or physically move them out of danger before it happens, suggesting a rather large window.

Foresight is a divination. As I pointed out earlier foresight does not tell you that bob is thinking about stabbing you and taking your share of the gold. It does however tell you, that you are about to get stabbed in 5,4,3,2...

Finally, foresight mentions that it gives you a hint on what action you might best use to protect yourself. Its suggestions are all physical, so in this instance it might be extended to "Leave" or "Teleport" or "Dimensional Anchor" Or lord knows what else.

Now that I'm less annoyed with you, I'll just reiterate. You're doing a decent job defending your idea, I'll give you that much. And I know not everyone has time to look up every little thing. But saying "Thats not what the spell says." Without reading the spell? *Sigh.*

[Arakune]

The foresight spell technically only prevents a surprise round vs the wizard, and provides him with insight bonuses to AC etc. But it does not mean that he casts it, and throughout the duration of the spell, he'll be warned of all actions around him that could possibly, at some distant point in the future, do him harm. That is not what the spell says.

Now, this is funny, because if you actually read the spell?


Don't bother anymore. At this rate, you can't convince him.



(hint 2: look at what foresight do (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm)).

And may others. He already could have read that at this point.

Edit: Okay, before anyone get's offended, If Giacomo's response for this is "this spell don't work that way", then clearly he didn't read the spell. If he say "It's not supposed to work that way", then we can start a discussion about it.

[Aquillion]

I don't think you can ready an action until combat starts, as readying an action requires one to have and initiative count. Thus the wizard still wins as he goes before initiative is rolled.
I'm fairly sure this is the case -- no readying actions outside of combat. I forget where it's spelled out, though.

But even if it isn't, that only makes things worse for non-wizards, because then the wizard can ready actions outside combat, too -- and they are readying actions to do things like cast Time Stop, or to Greater Teleport to the other side of the galaxy for a breather, or to Gate in something twice your HD.

[Stupendous_Man]

Okay... I've taken the time to calm down from how rage filled I was upon initially reading your post, so that I can say this as kindly as possible.

Let your anger flow through you.
Your hate will make you strong.

[Adumbration]

Becouse this would appear to be the place to discuss monks, I would like to have some opinion a monk character I'm building for an upcoming PbP game where everyone is a monk. Any suggestions, especially on how to properly take advantage of the racial ability 'Use Staff' that allows you to use staffs automatically?

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=15590

EDIT: I'm also missing a couple of feats, and just nevermind the skills, haven't even touched them yet. :smalltongue:

[Aquillion]

Becouse this would appear to be the place to discuss monks, I would like to have some opinion a monk character I'm building for an upcoming PbP game where everyone is a monk. Any suggestions, especially on how to properly take advantage of the racial ability 'Use Staff' that allows you to use staffs automatically?

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=15590

EDIT: I'm also missing a couple of feats, and just nevermind the skills, haven't even touched them yet. :smalltongue:Honestly, you're better off starting a new thread. A lot of people have probably given up on this one, and the discussions have degressed into all sorts of weird places that have little to do with "normal" character-building. Also, the 'everyone is a monk' party is interesting enough for its own thread. And you should tell us what the other party members will be, too -- it's important to work together to cover a variety of roles, particularly with a setup like this.

[Skjaldbakka]

The funny thing with foresight is that it gets blown so easily. The giacomonk has the spellcraft (especially my ascetic mage variation) to know how foresight works. So you throw a rock at the wizard from hiding. Foresight is gone, but the wizard still doesn't know where the heck you are. If he had a contingent spell based on being attacked by a hidden foe, both the foresight and the contingency are blown. With 0 resourse expenditure on the part of the monk.

[marjan]

The funny thing with foresight is that it gets blown so easily. The giacomonk has the spellcraft (especially my ascetic mage variation) to know how foresight works. So you throw a rock at the wizard from hiding. Foresight is gone, but the wizard still doesn't know where the heck you are. If he had a contingent spell based on being attacked by a hidden foe, both the foresight and the contingency are blown. With 0 resourse expenditure on the part of the monk.

Foresight doesn't state it is dispelled by rock.

[Skjaldbakka]

Oh. OK, I had that spell confused with Moment of Presience, which discharges, my bad. That changes things quite a bit.

[Vexxation]

The funny thing with foresight is that it gets blown so easily. The giacomonk has the spellcraft (especially my ascetic mage variation) to know how foresight works. So you throw a rock at the wizard from hiding. Foresight is gone, but the wizard still doesn't know where the heck you are. If he had a contingent spell based on being attacked by a hidden foe, both the foresight and the contingency are blown. With 0 resourse expenditure on the part of the monk.

Of course he could still guess the general area the rock flew from and blast it with an AOE spell.

I mean, if he's evil or neutral-borderline evil and thinks that anyone who would hit him with a rock must die.

[marjan]

I mean, if he's evil or neutral-borderline evil and thinks that anyone who would hit him with a rock must die.

Considering that a rock is pretty serious threat to your d4, I wonder how evil you must be to blast.

[Vexxation]

Considering that a rock is pretty serious threat to your d4, I wonder how evil you must be to blast.

Well, if you're high enough level to cast foresight, it would probably at most put you into the negatives (:smallbiggrin:)

[Skjaldbakka]

Not really. There is a lot of space covered in the "up to 50' away and to my left" area. And they could have farshot, which would make it up to 100' away and to my left.' A monk can easily make that hide at -20 to not be seen at that level. Although the giacomonk might not have the skill points to. My giacomonk doesn't have room for any of the stealth/perception skills.


Edit- Hey, that rock could be thrown by a high level rogue with a circlet of sniper's shot, for all the foresight spell and the wizard's contingency knows.

Also, for the record, I disagree with Giacomo on the whole 4+int is enough skill points for a monk issue. I tend to associate monk with the ranger in role, being somewhat of a skills/combat mixture (in role, if not in actuality).
IMO, the 'classic monk' needs to have Spot or Listen, Hide and Move Silently, Jump, Tumble, and Balance at maximum ranks. Which is 6 skills, therefore 6+int would be more appropriate. Having an above average intelligence should not be required to have your core skills, it should let you have extraneous skills.

[Vexxation]

Not really. There is a lot of space covered in the "up to 50' away and to my left" area.
*and other stuff, but this is what I'm silly enough to reply to*

If it's up to 50' away, assuming the monk wouldn't blow a feat on Far Shot, and wouldn't be able to afford that Sniper Circlet doodad you editted in while I was replying, an area of "50' away and left" could be neutralized; the wizard just needs a away to Widen a Fireball. Obviously the rock did not come from within 10' of him, he would most likely notice (though striking from the most obvious location would be a cunning plan) so a 40' radius Fireball should be more than enough to "smoke out" a hidden enemy.

Of course, the monk has Improved Evasion, but I'm sure someone more dedicated than I could find an equal-radius'd spell with no save.

[Skjaldbakka]

The wizard doesn't know its a monk, that was my point. Even if it was 5' away, you wouldn't know where exactly it was thrown from, because that is how the Hide skill works. Also, I really ought to start putting smileys next to my not-intended-to-be-taken-seriously comments.:smallsmile:

[Vexxation]

The wizard doesn't know its a monk, that was my point.

But it would be a safe guess that "someone" threw from within 50'. I mean, how many high-level wizards would assume someone would go to such length and then throw a rock?

Also, Black Tentacles would be even better than a fireball. If the attacker tries to escape, he can be attacked! Hehehe... add acid fog just for fun.

[Frost]

The answer is that Black Tentacles has a 40ft radius.

And you know, is super awesome and doesn't need Widening.

But I'm sure that the Monk has Freedom of Movement cast all day every day from Wands, just like every other spell in the game.

[Vexxation]

The answer is that Black Tentacles has a 40ft radius.

20 ft.

but still awesome, and still doesn't need Widening.
And it lasts longer than a fireball, meaning that if you keep applying fresh ones (because I have scrolls. I carry hundreds of scrolls with me, much like the monk and his wands) then when the monk attempts to sneak out of hiding, *BAM* grapple attempt after grapple attempt.

[Skjaldbakka]

Meanwhile, while you are spending all your attention on the monk, the rest of the party ganks the **** out of you.

Which is why most wizards wouldn't respond in that manner, and why a contingency for "when I am attacked by a hidden foe" is dumb.

[Vexxation]

Meanwhile, while you are spending all your attention on the monk, the rest of the party ganks the **** out of you.

Well, if there's a party after him, then surely he's a BBEG and thus has a thrall of henchpersons to use to deflect the wrath of the party.

Of course, our wizard is also Invisible, Flying, Incorporeal, and prepared a Greater Teleport to retreat at the first sign of danger.

Alternately, Time Stop wtfpwn combo.

[Benejeseret]

Thanks for the feedback. I "suppose" that trading in monk levels for psionic fist mostly fits the purpose of the build (doesn't help the monk's case :smallbiggrin:) but still comes off very monkish fitting the monk's role in a party.

I just like the image of a 15 foot man reaching out in every direction to grab and grapple everything around him...piling them all up underneath.

With my build he can make (without haste) 18 trip attacks if enemies are near each other....each successful touch attack grants a free grapple attempt and still allows the free extra action due to improved trip. Make this free action a pin attempt. Yay crowd control.

He ends up with a pile of around 18 enemies under him in one round...all pinned and silenced. (A whole Wizard College Class!!!!!)

And if he's minmaxed with low Int I picture him saying, "Mine. All mine. And you're mine too." as he knocks over those wizards and drags them under into a wriggling...crying pile.

[Worira]

Hi again,

Thanks also to Benejeseret for providing yet another monk variant build (albeit non-core). As a first feedback, try to also get somehow improved sunder inside (though normally also normal sunder could help) to get rid of those pesky rings of freedom of movement (they will succumb to one of your strikes). As for cast fom's, you may wish to consider AMFs since you unbuffed are still better at grappling casters that are unbuffed.


No. Just no.

[Skjaldbakka]

Of course, our wizard is also Invisible, Flying, Incorporeal, and prepared a Greater Teleport to retreat at the first sign of danger.

Way to contribute.

[Signmaker]

Considering the hp scores of the wizard opponent (Quite low, obviously), may I attempt to, once again, suggest Spell Storing Shuriken? It, at least, is inexpensive (6.3k for a 50pack) and one well-timed shot can unleash a salvo of Scorching Rays. 50 foot range (100 with Far Shot), at least offers the hope that a flurried attempt will allow one shot to go through, and punch hard with 4d6 fire damage.

Just so people don't think I'm a monk hater and all.

[Vexxation]

Way to contribute.

Well, the entire thing started with my jest that the wizard would just annihilate the entire area that the rock could've come from.

And most people are assuming that the wizard has all those buffs on, all the time, as well as foresight.

So thank you.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Considering the hp scores of the wizard opponent (Quite low, obviously), may I attempt to, once again, suggest Spell Storing Shuriken? It, at least, is inexpensive (6.3k for a 50pack) and one well-timed shot can unleash a salvo of Scorching Rays. 50 foot range (100 with Far Shot), at least offers the hope that a flurried attempt will allow one shot to go through, and punch hard with 4d6 fire damage.

Just so people don't think I'm a monk hater and all.

I really do not have time or the energy to follow this thread, but if this was suggested before and I missed it, I apologize.

Spell Storing is not a legal enhancement for Shruikens or other projectiles and Scorching Ray is not a legal spell to be used with Spell Storing.

I guess the good thing about this thread is that everything seems to be repeated at least once.... :smallamused:

[Signmaker]

I really do not have time or the energy to follow this thread, but if this was suggested before and I missed it, I apologize.

Spell Storing is not a legal enhancement for Shruikens or other projectiles and Scorching Ray is not a legal spell to be used with Spell Storing.

I guess the good thing about this thread is that everything seems to be repeated at least once.... :smallamused:

Ouch. Well, now I feel like a bloody idiot. Anyway, thanks for the fix Silvanos.

[Stupendous_Man]

maybe the monk gets a wizard to use smiting spell on the shuriken?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Ouch. Well, now I feel like a bloody idiot. Anyway, thanks for the fix Silvanos.

Don't be too hard on yourself it is not an uncommon misconception.

Idiocy certainly is not a factor. :smallwink:

[Frost]

Of course for your smiting spell you need to find something that Fire Resist 10-30 (Much less Persistent Fire Immunity, much less Greater Blink) doesn't negate.

[Signmaker]

Don't be too hard on yourself it is not an uncommon misconception.

Idiocy certainly is not a factor. :smallwink:

So I am safe to assume that spell storing cannot be attached to arrows, and other ammo?

[AmberVael]

So I am safe to assume that spell storing cannot be attached to arrows, and other ammo?

If you look at the magic weapons chart, you'll see that Spell Storing is for melee weapons only.

[Signmaker]

If you look at the magic weapons chart, you'll see that Spell Storing is for melee weapons only.

Thank you.

Back on to the topic. I am finding Giacomo's Time-Stop AMF idea to be fishy, and even IF by some disregard of logical interpretation that casting an AMF in Time Stop is the same as entering one (Which cannot be done!) the monk is able to get his hands on the scrolls required to do such, how is he going to A. Avoid Foresight, which will tell the wizard "Oh crap, you might want to brace yourself real soon" and B. Make the appropriate UMD checks, when another poster has shown the odds are INCREDIBLY slim for Giacomo's build? (Yeah, missing those 10ish ranks from it being Cross-Class tends to hurt. Especially with a Cha Penalty stacked on top)

Seeing as this is Giacomo's latest attempt to 'pierce' the impenetrable defense that is a Wizard's standard PVP spell set, I feel that we really should finalize addressing this one before moving on to the next issue.

[Frosty]

If I were the Monk I'd be trying to buy or get the party wizard to craft a custom +15 to UMD item before I attempt this. I'd also have to be in a high wealth campaign. Maybe have an Artificer friend.

[Covered In Bees]

If I were the Monk I'd be trying to buy or get the party wizard to craft a custom +15 to UMD item before I attempt this. I'd also have to be in a high wealth campaign. Maybe have an Artificer friend.

Maybe just be an artificer...

[dman11235]

+30 competence ring, cost 90,000 gp. Also, scroll of AMF and time stop, assuming it works (which...it doesn't) cost 1,650 and 3,825 respectively per use, that's pretty gang material intensive right there. Even the +15 ring is 22,500 gp. And then best case scenario you have +31 or so UMD, assuming the cha is +3 (10+6 item). Which is 36,000 gp and two stat points that could have gone somewhere else (str, dex, con, wis, int). +33 with a MW tool. Vs a DC of 31 and 37, respectively, and you still don't have a guarantee of success. And you know, for stating that the monk isn't dependent on items, you sure are throwing out a lot of items to defend it.

[mostlyharmful]

Maybe just be an artificer...

Nonsense. Heresy... BURN THE UNBELIEVER!!!!!

It vaguely works as an NPC concept with access to nigh infinate wealth and a reliable buff routine, certainly more challenging to run than most big enemies that have ways to actually win rather than either survive or just run away.

[Arbitrarity]

No. Just no.

Sundering a Carried or Worn Object
You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character. Attacking a carried or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity just as attacking a held object does. To attempt to snatch away an item worn by a defender rather than damage it, see Disarm. You can’t sunder armor worn by another character.

Interesting. No natural, deflection, or other armors, and you can "smash" a ring without damaging the character. (My FINGER!).

A bit of a logical conundrum, similar to the "hide" issue: How are you sundering my rings under my gloves of dexterity, which could be on any finger?
Also, if I am invisible, how do you target an item I am holding?

These questions are similar to "How do you sunder a ring in my backpack?" which can be done as well.

Apparently legal, though. Also very easy (Hardness 10, hp 2).
(addenum: Wizards, get stomach rings. They go under your mithral twilight chain shirt, so it should be impossible to sunder them).

The last issue that is actually rules related is: How do you get the attack in?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Obviously, you cannot target an object that you do not have line of sight to.

[Arbitrarity]

Duuuh. I forgot about that. Thanks, Popcorn Tyrant! You have saved D&D from logical incongruities once again!

[Signmaker]

Duuuh. I forgot about that. Thanks, Popcorn Tyrant! You have saved D&D from logical incongruities once again!

Danananananana nanananananana EYESMAAAAAN!

[marjan]

*stuff about sundering*

The bigger problem here I believe is that you are sundering 40k of loot (or 20k, if you plan to sell the ring) and then go to town to buy more consumables.

[Signmaker]

The bigger problem here I believe is that you are sundering 40k of loot (or 20k, if you plan to sell the ring) and then go to town to buy more consumables.

Well, hopefully the Monk isn't making a living being a mage hunter, and keeps himself from sundering the useful items of his opponents. Which apparently doesn't matter, as the monk is always able to have 100% liquid funds, of which he can buy whatever he needs, whenever he needs.

One of the few things that I DO approve about Giacomo's build is that level by level, he is able to buy scrolls, partial wands, etc due to their low cost. Granted, he is expected to 'lose' quite a portion of his investment fairly quickly, but at least his isn't a build where he expects to have a +6 Item by 10th level. Which is something. I guess.

[Covered In Bees]

One of the few things that I DO approve about Giacomo's build is that level by level, he is able to buy scrolls, partial wands, etc due to their low cost.

He can't BUY partial wands during a campaign at all. He can only have some to start with when he creates a character (and the way he does it abuses the intent of the rule).

[Benejeseret]

My other monk build:

Race - Shifter (Beasthide/Gorebrute)
Class - Wild Monk (variant) 12 / Warshaper 3 / Weretouched Master 5 (Wolverine)

Feats: Beasthide Elite (1), Healing Factor (3), Extra Shifter Trait (gorebrute), Shifters Defense (9), Gr. Shifters Defense (12), Mad Foam Rager (15), Reckless Rage (18), Gorebrute Elite (were2), Shifters Savegery (were4).

Basically grants 4 shifts/day that each grant +4Str, +2 Dex, +12 Con, +4 NA, gore attack and a bite attack, DR 4/silver, immune crits/stun, +5' reach plus an extra natural attack (claw/tail/slam...whatever the wildshape form does not normally have).

Anytime he takes damage the next turn he gains a further +4 Str/Con -4AC in a rage that lasts for the rest of the encounter.

Anytime the rage and the shift are both present ALL his natural weapons advance 2 size categories and their threat increases to 19-20/x2.

He can Large (12hd) Wildshape 3 times per day for 12 hours each and can further shift (since it is a SU ability) on top of the wildshape.

So....he becomes a Dire Lion and in a fight he "shifts" becoming MORE feral and after a round of combat he rages.

Str 33 Dex 17, Con 33, Int Wis Cha as base
AC = 10-1size+3dex+4NA+Wisdom+2monk
Speed=80'
BAB=+14/+9/+4, Flurry +14/+14/+14/+9/+4
+160 bonus HP from the extra Con (shift/rage)
Fort +26, Ref+15 (impr. evasion), Will +10+wis

His rage last for whole encounter and his shift lasts 21 rounds

Full Attack (or pounce) He gets his full Flurry +25/+25/+25/+20/+15 blunt (6d8+11, 19-20/x2), a gore +20 (6d6+10, 19-20/x2), a bite +20 (3d6+5), 2x claws +20 each (2d6+5, 19-20/x2), 2x rakes each (2d6+5, 19-20/x2), a tail Slap (morphic) +20 (3d6+5, 19-20/x2)
(making 12 attacks of various types on a pounce/full)
Average damage output if all hit = 300 plus 1 free trip attempt (+15) along with the free grapple attempt (+29)

Reach 10'

And yes that is a dire lion with wolverine fangs, massive horns/tusks, and whose back ends in a massive snakes tail!!! Oh, and it does kung-fu.

Try that one one for size Mr. Knowledge (nature). Apply all the above to a Giant Panda instead.........and profit


And Lastly (drum roll) he is not MAD....his Con needs to be at least 13 and other than that Max his Wisdom.

Item dependency = None. (heck, spend all WBL on Tomes of Understanding if your DM does not allow the wilding clasps)

Str/Dex/Int/Cha are ALL unnecessary!!!

[Covered In Bees]

That's no monk, that's a space station.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hi again,

wow, Benejeseret, another interesting monk build. Maybe you'd wish to set up a non-core monk build thread? With builds like these, I am having increasing diffulties to understand why people even with non-core rules have problems with the monk class being underpowered. I can'T check the legality of the rules, though - but it certainly is impressive.

Then, @Caro: I kindly ask you to check the rules yourself again. This is what the foresight spell says (SRD):
This spell grants you a powerful sixth sense in relation to yourself or another. Once foresight is cast, you receive instantaneous warnings of impending danger or harm to the subject of the spell. You are never surprised or flat-footed. In addition, the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself and gives you a +2 insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves. This insight bonus is lost whenever you would lose a Dexterity bonus to AC.

When another creature is the subject of the spell, you receive warnings about that creature. You must communicate what you learn to the other creature for the warning to be useful, and the creature can be caught unprepared in the absence of such a warning. Shouting a warning, yanking a person back, and even telepathically communicating (via an appropriate spell) can all be accomplished before some danger befalls the subject, provided you act on the warning without delay. The subject, however, does not gain the insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves.

Care to point to me where it says you get more than the effect that you are never surprised or flat-footed? (plus the insight bonuses to AC and reflex saves). And that this spell warns you only of things ABOUT to happen? No planning, buffing, drinking coffee, travelling around to help the other creature warned, or yourself.

And the PHB stuff (don't have it here right now) that you quoted also suggest the same thing.

EDIT: having thought longer about it, the time stop is cast in the round before the AMF hits the wizard, so the surprise round should be negated. But does this mean that the wizard can do an immediate action in round 1, before initiative is rolled? That is a tricky question. He could not cast the immediate action celerity in the surprise round -or could he? If he is never surprised or flat-footed, it does not mean he gets to act before initiative is rolled. Hmmm. Difficult call.
Well, luckily inside core such difficulties do not arise. Ah, and in any case, foresight will occupy most of the 9th level slots to be up all day.EDIT END

What Lord Silvanos posted in half-jest is really true. A lot of the length of this thread comes about because some people imo refuse to revise their opinions, even after being presented with the hard facts. Of course, playing for years and years with wizards or other casters unimpeded with the most generous spell interpretations possible (or even directly ignoring the drawbacks or rules altogether) will result in the misperception that the wizards are uber. Conversely, at some point or another the monk class in the core rules has attracted the most attractively funny derisory remarks, and, repeated often enough, it becomes the truth in the eyes of some players. Flurry not possible in a grapple indeed!:smallsigh:


Okay, you know why wizards win? They know everything about you. When you're going to attack included. But they know where you are, what you're doing, and everything about your loved ones too. Then they can proceed to cast spells of various sorts until you're dead.

Saves? Target? Line of effect? Line of Sight? etc.
I never maintained that high-level wizards are not powerful. But it balances out with what the other classes can do, and what kind of magic they also have available. But for this to happen, you need to apply ALL core rules, not just those that please you. Or, of course, you could to get the game you like most, but then you should not forget that you have houseruled and likewise should not tell other players or posters around here that what you play is 100% the rules.

Methods vary. They can, for instance, Mind Rape some commoner into loving you, and then cast Love's Pain on them until you're dead. No matter where you are, no save, no SR, planar boundaries don't even block it, you're dead. You don't even know what hit you. Or they can decide that they want to face you head on, so they can construct a spell turret. Meaning they possess a block of Obdurium or something that they cast Hardness and other hardening spells on it, and thus have a hardness 80 body. You can't even hurt it. Assuming you can see it, since it's invisible, with a permanent Invisibility spell cast on it. It was an object, so it qualifies.

Non-core stuff can have some odd results. You'll never see me denying that.:smallsmile:

Or, here's another one. About to enter battle that they know is going to happen (Foresight, various other divinations), or first round, they cast Time Stop (extend it via MM rod) and during it they cast Gate or some other big summoning spell, put a Ring Gate on the creature, move away, cast Wall of Stone and Prismatic Sphere and Shapechange into an incorporeal undead, occupying the stone inside the PS. Then proceed to blast you through the Ring Gate held by that Great Wyrm Gold Dragon using various spells.

Ah, that is one of the typical examples of how half-truths spread somewhere become common wisdom. That was, as far as I remember, a post by Lycanthromancer (hope I spelled him right) on the WoTC boards. And it is full of illegal stuff and misinterpreted rules. I debunked it once here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3876961&postcount=50) (it has also got the link to the original post in it).

Or they want to beat you at your own game. Since this thread seem to like grapple so much, they Shape Change into some big nasty grapple monster. Polymorph works just as well. They are now better than you at melee. Since grapple is vastly overrated, and yet overpowered at the same time, they just want to beat you in melee. Polymorph into the correct creature, you're set. Add in the vast number of buffs the wizard gets...it's over. And there are many more than just one to do these things.

But what again prevents the monk from also polymorphing (using polymorph any object, btw, for duration and lower long-term cost)? And the wizard who morphs still does not have the feats and the hp and damage to even have a remote chance in melee combat to stand up to a monk who does the same.

Now that that's out of the way, Your guide is very lacking. Grapple...monks are bad at it. Touch attack to start? Yeah...good job. Now make your grapple check. Can't do it? Why? I thought monks were good at grappling?

Er...this outstanding mistake may be excused, since you have apparently not read the whole thread. That issue already came up, and I proved that the Joker monk (a monk not specialised in grappling btw!) was able to overcome the overwhelming majority of all monsters and encounters in levels 1-8 with his grappling tactics.
There is currently a grappling contest going on run by Talic with a level 6 core monk devoted to grappling and he's doing extremely well.

Maybe the high MAD (requiring str, wis, dex, con) reduced the str you could have had...and you have med BAB...and no way to grow...meanwhile that straight barbarian is up around +11 on you, +15 with the Bear Totem from UA (SRD, look it up). That's a straight barbarian. He can afford to focus more on str than you, because he doesn't need wis or dex as much as you do.

UA is not commonly understood as core rules.
Ah, and that MAD fallacy again, and again. What is so hard to understand about this? There are so obvious, simple, crystal clear facts:
- try imagining a 0-point buy build for all classes. Notice something? Right. The monk can use ALL of his class abilities. Most other classes cannot.
- the barbarian example: said barabarian can NOT afford to put all his stat points into STR, if he, for instance, wishes to get access to those highly useful high-STR-feats: improved grapple and improved trip. Both have stat prerequisites. INT gets reduced when you grab the orc or half-orc races for more STR bonuses. And DEX gets reduced by -2 when you use another BigSTR-build key element: an enlarge person effect. Thus you'll need a starting DEX of 15 to keep improved grapple active, for instance, when enlarged, and a starting INT of 15 (before racial mod) to ever get improved trip (apart from paying two feats to get it).
So when it comes to combat, and combat feats, the monk thanks to his BONUS FEATS WITHOUT REQUIREMENTS is much less MAD than others.
- EVERYONE can make use of good stats. EVERYWHERE. For instance, a typical power wizard build puts 14 in DEX/CON and the rest in INT, the other stats are "dump stats". Or are they? A +1 will save at first level means, it won't be the barbarian who gets charmed by the BBEG, but the wizard. Great. Low STR? Get hit by ray of enfeeblement or a STR-seeping poison (or shadow later), and immediately the wizard is frozen in the spot (or gets rid of his heavy spellbook).
Result: the monk is not MAD, no-one really is (or all are, but some classes more than the monk).

Simply dip two levels of monk and take the rest psychic warrior and full BAB classes and you'll be amazing at grappling. Even just straight psywar. They get Expansion and Grip of Iron. Though a simple 4th level spell negates this bonus. Don't even bring AMF into this, since you can't cast it.

Or get UMD and divine power. Which is part of what the build is about. When you multiclass, you get fewer monk abilities. This may not always be useful. Plus, not all DMs may allow the psionics rules into core.
And btw, the joker monk can cast AMF. Or could sunder the ring of freedom of movement.

Now, I should debunk your myth myths.

Failed utterly so far, you fail utterly below.

1) Monks are very MAD. They require high wis, con, str, and dex in order to function well. By focusing on battlefield control you can eliminate dex and wis and con all as primary stats, by not allowing your opponent to take a swing at you, and with the Fist of the Forest PrC, you ease the strain a bit on your AC stats (wis and dex). Even still, unless focusing on them your AC will be low. Int is still not a dump stat because you have a nice skill list, and a couple knowledge skills on it. You'll want some. Cha is the ONLY stat a monk can afford to dump. And even then some builds require it. Wizards, however, only need int. Dex and con are secondary to it. Sorcerers need cha. Clerics need wis and maybe str and con. Druids need wis.

See above.

2)a) monks can't grapple well. Their damage may be superior to everyone else, but they can't win the grapple checks. And the base damage doesn't matter much even, at level 20 the only difference being an average of 10 isn't much. Actually less, since you had to spend resources elsewhere and don't have as high of a str score as a barbarian, for instance. Also, you can't flurry grapple checks for damage. Grapple checks for damage are a standard action.

WHAT? Grapple checks are a standard action? I kindly ask to read the grappling rules again. Even Fenix_of_Doom would not argue that.
Base damage matters a lot, as shown in the grappling contest run by Talic. You increase the speed with which you can down your grappled foe, which is highly useful.
And once again: THE JOKER MONK WILL NO LONGER USE GRAPPLING AS DEFAULT COMBAT TACTICS BEYOND LEVEL 8!
After that, he definitely prefers doing up to 7 attacks per round at 6d8 plus whatever damage.
And using one fallacy ("monk has to spend resources elsewhere" & "don't have as high of a STR score as a barbarian") to try to avoid others won't work.

2)b) fastest scout: the Scout. And he can remain undetected. And put that otherwise high speed to good use in battle. Monks need full attacks.

To boldy go outside core...And everyone "needs" full atacks. Or rather, everyone would make great use of it. In my guide I even outlined ways in core to get them for the monk.

2)c)best defenses non-spell: yes, they do. It ends after level...2. They odn't get Uncanny Dodge. Spell Resistance hurts you more than it helps (you need buffs from party members). The immunities are to mundane things that never really get seen.

The joker monk has a great source of buffs independent from party members: UMD, remember? And many long-term buffs will allow the monk to lower his SR (or SR is not even necessary).
And poison? Disease? Never really get seen? In games you play maybe, in others, and in those apparently envisioned by the rules they do turn up. And in a dark middle age campaign (pestilence etc.) immunity to disease is golden.

2)d) Highest base damage: yes. If a difference of 4 points of damage (actually much less, those guys swinging a sword are sitting there with 2xstr to damage and a magic sword compared to your max 4d8+str) matters in a late game, call me. I'll have to eat my hat. Now, if you exit monk early (level 6 LATEST) you can get upwards of 16d8 base damage, and then...then you're doing some noticeable damage. Also, you can't get your fist enchanted as a magic weapon. It's not a manufactured weapon, nor is it masterwork. It's a natural weapon that acts as a manufactured weaopn for a lot of things.

Getting 16d8 base damage with only 6 levels of monk is not possible in core. But outside of core -yep, then plenty of new possibilities are there.
And as for you getting magic enchanted unarmed strikes: Magic gauntlets help, though. And I guess outside core, there are also monk weapons that allow to do flurry and unarmed strike damage.
And about the damage being inferior to fighter/barbarian weapon damage: I have shown earlier in the thread, that in core the damage output is quite close. It is amazing what two extra attacks and the high base damage and buffs like divine power/holy sword (or better: greater magic weapon, for more duration) can do.

3) ..what? So reliance on others to prove that you are good...proves you are good on your...own? How? The fact that you rely on others to prove your worth...proves that THEY are good. Not you. And if you want to spend some of your precious skill points and stat points on UMD, by all means, go right ahead. And then still rely on expendables to do your job. Wow.

Does this now mean that a wizard is a useless class? You know, d4 hits, few spells at low levels and all that?
This game is meant to be a group game. So it's realistic to assume that pc buffs for others are present in the game, as is that casters will be able to cast in combat since their comrades protect them. That at high levels, ALL kind of character classes can built to be one-man-armies shows nothing.

4)....wat....Monks are THE most item dependent class in core. Probably out of core as well, only possible contender is the CW Samurai. Let's see, you need your wis, dex, con, str boosts, cha boosts as well since you wanted UMD, tomes and enhancement bonuses alone cost a lot...magic weapon...you need the AoMF in core (or better yet: permanent GMFang a couple times at CL 20), out of you NEED the NoNA...armor, natural and regular, deflection, skill boosts, miscellaneous boosts, flight, more attack boosts, Pearls of Power for those friendly spell caster so gracious to let you take their spells so you can be competent, etc. You really think that they are more item dependent that the sorcerer who needs....charisma boosts? I didn't even count the other things that you'd want rather than need.

It is so simple, if you would not struggle so much to avoid admitting that you may have overlooked something and that you could change your opinion.
The monk has several extraordinary and supernatural abilities, plus (as you yourself confirmed) the best non-spell defenses. So it means he has to spend less to get items that do this for him.
A sorcerer does not only need CHR boosts, but items that protect him so he can even survive. Stuff like higher saves, higher hp, higher AC - all of which the monk class has already inbuilt, 24/7. At the super-high levels -yes, then he can set up mind blanks, foresight, what have you to be nigh-untouchable. But before that? And even at high levels, a sorcerer would love to have some greater metamagic rods and other gimmicks.

5) True, you don't want to be in melee for long, since the enemy will probably kill you in one full attack, you AC and HP are so low. Not to mention that your favorite maneuver, grapple, relies on high str AND BAB. Two things the monk does not have, one if he neglects dex and/ or wis for str. There are ways to fix this. PrCs and multi-classing are the two best ways, relying on friendlies to give up half their resources to make you competent is another. Note that stunning usually fails as well, since the fort save DC is so low. DC 10+10+wis at level 20, where as fort saves are usually around 15+con, and their con is bigger than your wis. And yes, this is even core only. Go out, it's all over. And at the end, where you go over other houserules....slow fall is useful how? A 2,000 gp ring does the same thing, only MUCH better. Skills? So you spend 6 points at character creation on int, leaving fewer for other, more important, stats. That is supposed to be a good thing? Again, MAD.

OK, some points here so that you maybe realise better what I mean with this whole joker monk build.
- at higher levels, it is quite unlikely that any character (ANY!) will survive a full round attack by another - if he does not have any major defenses. The joker monk has those (blink, concealment, hide, etheralness, AC, etc - basically all useful lvl 1-4 spells you can think of)
- when a fellow caster pc occasionally buffs the monk from his daily spell repertoire with bull's strenth, enlarge, overland flight, greater magic weapon, then this does not mean they give him "half of their resources". In particular not when said joker monk gives them pearls of power from his wbl.
- stunning fist is not a superpowerful attack, true, but it is devastating against low CON enemies (like wizards), and the nice thing: it comes ONTOP of the attacks that the monk normally does.
- and slow fall is useful, since you can for instance 1) add the fallen distance in dungeons on top of your movement in a round; 2) grapple an opponent and move with him over a cliff, doing falling damage to him (but none to yourself). The feather fall ring does that, too, but that does not make having the ability automatically less useful. (and as a small aside, it is magic and can be dispelled and sundered/stolen).
- why do you criticise that I put a 14 in INT at the start? It's done for this particular build who makes use of quite a few skills. His other stats are just fine to achieve what the build is intended to do.

6) That's...right...Spring attack is a trap. For everyone. Don't take it, ever. If you must be mobile like that, try a Scout with a fly speed and use Fly By Attack.

Oh, a monk with flyby attack (like the joker monk) is just fine (as I outlined in the guide).

III
1)Grappling: Grappling is THE weak melee/ranged character bane. Nothing more. Casters are either immune or will never let you near them. You can't beat melees because you have a lower BAB and str. At low levels you still can't beat the melees because of str/BAB issues, but casters don't yet have immunities fully to everything ever. They still are nigh impossible to get to, through their myriad of summons/walls/fogs/etc. Also, you go on to say sunder the ring....first of just about every caster can cast it, and second off, never destroy your own loot!!!!! Sunder is even more of a trap than SA.

As pointed out above, grapple is highly effective, and in levels 1-8 the joker monk will outgrapple most of his foes. Most low level melees will not take improved grapple, because of (practically) DEX 15 requirement and 2 feat costs (which they better invest in power attack or other feats appropriate for their weapon-oriented combat style).
And funny that you mention summons (tumble), walls (jump), fogs (high move) as things to protect casters - you see, the monk has all that it needs to tackle these.
And where is that strange notion of "never destroy your own loot" coming from (also mentioned by others, I think). You need to overcome your enemy first. If said enemy has an item that makes that impossible (or worse: that makes your death likely), than you'll of course sunder! It should do nothing to the monk's wbl over time, since the DM will adjust that to keep things balanced. Wbl should only be based on what you actually get, with all your means available - not what the monsters or BBEG THEORETICALLY HAVE with them.

2) Monks have the lowest AC of melees. Slight exaggeration, since rogues CAN have a lowr AC and so can rangers, but not by much. Certainly less than a heavy armor fighter or cleric. Their saves are all good, that's nice but nothing major (casters have better). The immunities don't often help much. They are very MAD so can't afford to have high HP. Good defenses how again?

Nope. Eventually the monk has the highest AC of melees. This is also easily shown, since armour at most provides +8 AC (armour bonus) and +7 (shield bonus with enhancement). Enhancement to armour is also available for the monk (magic vestment spell.
Then, the monk has the following that the armour-wearing classes will not have/cannot make use of:
- bracers
- mage armour spell
- shield spell (UMD, or force shield ring)
- monk AC bonus (touch AC btw)
- WIS bonus (touch AC btw)
Do not tell me that the combined of these four will not eventually surpass the bonus provided even by full plate and shield...:smallamused:
Meanwhile, wearing armour encumbers, can slow you down, and carries skill penalties.

3) When to quit monk: 2, 3, or 6. Or 4. Never any later. Any later, and you miss out on too many things. Heck, if you really want Greater Flurry (why? It's just one attack) go monk 2/psychic warrior 9 and take Tashalatora. Or monk 6/Shou Disciple 5. Never any later than 6. Abilities you gain...Aw, heck, just read the link I'll provide at the end, I don't want to retype it. On the rest...just read the link.

Hmmm. I guess (including in core), that could be also said for the wizard - prestige classes and even multiclassing can offer a lot. This does not mean that the monk class is bad. Or the wizard class.

4) :headdesk:

Go here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1015.0) and read that handbook. That's what a monk build should look like. I'm not even getting into the major design problems with the class here. Anyways, I went through each ability, and evaluated it's contribution to the class, bot hon its own, and with regard to other abilities.

I will have a closer look at the thread. But judging from your misperceptions of the monk class and the game in general, it may not be perfect...:smallsmile:
Plus, doing a guide on a class that you think sucks possibly shows in the enthusiasm you put in your recommendations...but I may be mistaken.

Finally, was this a joke thread? Please say so.

60+ pages of joke thread? "Do I look like I am joking?" - The Joker :smallcool:

- Giacomo

[Vexxation]

wow, Benejeseret, another interesting monk build. Maybe you'd wish to set up a non-core monk build thread? With builds like these, I am having increasing diffulties to understand why people even with non-core rules have problems with the monk class being underpowered.

Because that's not a monk. Not really, when you look at it. What is it? A variant monk that can wildshape, then uses the awesome Weretouched Master class to shift even more ferally.
If you notice, nearly every feat is focusing on making its shifted form more deadly. The only real reason to go monk for that build is because monk grants Flurry to unarmed (or natural) attacks. As it is using unarmed attacks, the most sense is to get the extra 2 attacks. Granted, I probably would've stopped a little sooner, but personal choice is personal choice.

Now, yes, that build is pretty neat to look at. But just because monk levels dominate it does not make it a monk build. No, it is a Shifter/Weretouched master build. I'm sure a druid version would be just as good, if not better.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Str 33 Dex 17, Con 33, Int Wis Cha as base
AC = 10-1size+3dex+4NA+Wisdom+2monk
Speed=80'
BAB=+14/+9/+4, Flurry +14/+14/+14/+9/+4
+160 bonus HP from the extra Con (shift/rage)
Fort +26, Ref+15 (impr. evasion), Will +10+wis

His rage last for whole encounter and his shift lasts 21 rounds

Full Attack (or pounce) He gets his full Flurry +25/+25/+25/+20/+15 blunt (6d8+11, 19-20/x2), a gore +20 (6d6+10, 19-20/x2), a bite +20 (3d6+5), 2x claws +20 each (2d6+5, 19-20/x2), 2x rakes each (2d6+5, 19-20/x2), a tail Slap (morphic) +20 (3d6+5, 19-20/x2)
(making 12 attacks of various types on a pounce/full)
Average damage output if all hit = 300 plus 1 free trip attempt (+15) along with the free grapple attempt (+29)



160 HP for one encounter means nothing, unless you can get healed before you lose all those HP's again.
I don't think you can combine natural attacks with iterative attacks either.

edit: and you might want to read up on rake:

Rake

A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual -4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple.

A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

[Kurald Galain]

Because that's not a monk. Not really, when you look at it. What is it? A variant monk that can wildshape, then uses the awesome Weretouched Master class to shift even more ferally.

Precisely.

A perennial truth in these threads is that "the best monk is the one that tries hardest at not being a monk". Even Gia knows that, even if he'll never admit it, because all his gonks do is try really hard to be wizard.

[Oslecamo]

I don't think you can combine natural attacks with iterative attacks either.

The MM disagrees with you. See the salamander for the simplest example.

[Signmaker]

Nope. Eventually the monk has the highest AC of melees. This is also easily shown, since armour at most provides +8 AC (armour bonus) and +7 (shield bonus with enhancement). Enhancement to armour is also available for the monk (magic vestment spell.
Then, the monk has the following that the armour-wearing classes will not have/cannot make use of:
- bracers
- mage armour spell
- shield spell (UMD, or force shield ring)
- monk AC bonus (touch AC btw)
- WIS bonus (touch AC btw)
Do not tell me that the combined of these four will not eventually surpass the bonus provided even by full plate and shield...:smallamused:
Meanwhile, wearing armour encumbers, can slow you down, and carries skill penalties.
- Giacomo

Of course, you fail to post that the Bracers (I believe they go up to +8) cost 1000.X^Y, so your best Bracers would cost 64000 gp. I will grant that Monks get the highest AC bonus regarding to Touch (It's pretty obvious, really). However, your build simply has too many UMD items for me to really consider it the 'best' at anything. Hopefully you understand this too. The posters have proven (Quite repeatedly, in fact) that you cannot reliably cast high level scrolls, some of which have almost begun to be integral to your build just so that the wizard doesn't auto-kill you.

***

Please, do me a favor.

Do not respond to my post until you can do the following:

List EVERY UMD item you have spoken of using thus far. Hide from Animals, Scroll of Shapechange, even if you only mentioned it in passing or to quickly debunk an idea, I want to see EVERY item you've accumulated thus far.

Next to each item, list the price. For wands, per charge. If you feel inclined, you can also show the full price of the wand next to the charge price, for those posters (such as myself) who don't agree with your theory of being able to aquire such an abundance of partially-charged wands.

At this point, if you feel bored, feel free to add the UMD DC of every item. Most of them should be 20, of course. Wands and all. For scrolls, if you do not have the appropriate ability score, list that DC as well.

Add up the price of everything (By wand charge, not by full wand price. To be fair.) Then multiply it by 5. (5 of every UMD is a bad estimate, I know. Unfortunately, you have not, a poster has not, and I have not been able to thus far figure how many of each item will be spent over the course of a career. Consider yourself lucky that I only ask for a 5x multiplier.) When you find that total, realize that that's how much in liquid wealth that you won't have to spend on permanent items by 20th level, because you've already burnt it up. While sure, according to your beliefs monks don't have too much item dependency compared to other classes, you cannot deny that your monk has quite the high upkeep cost.

I eagerly await your findings, and do note that said list will be recalled each time you add another item to the monk's list of items, and the total retallied. It isn't just that I'm being petty (I am, I'll admit it), but such a list HAS been requested before, and will be infinitely useful to both you and your opponents.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

The MM disagrees with you. See the salamander for the simplest example.

The salamander uses manufactured weapons in conjunctions with his natural attacks, as written here in the spoiler below, a dire lion has no such weapon.


Manufactured Weapons

Some monsters employ manufactured weapons when they attack. Creatures that use swords, bows, spears, and the like follow the same rules as characters, including those for additional attacks from a high base attack bonus and two-weapon fighting penalties. This category also includes “found items,” such as rocks and logs, that a creature wields in combat— in essence, any weapon that is not intrinsic to the creature.

Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual -5 penalty (or -2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Unarmed Strikes follow the rules for manufactured weapons, so they can be combined with natural attacks during a full attack only if the creature normally is capable of combining manufactured and natural attacks.

[Skjaldbakka]

That doesn't make any sense. How is that even determined?


your build just so that the wizard doesn't auto-kill you.

What percentage of CR 20 monsters are level 20 wizards? What percentage of CR 15 monsters are level 15 wizards? What percentage of CR 10 monsters are level 10 wizards?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

That doesn't make any sense. How is that even determined?

By MM entries.

[Skjaldbakka]

By MM entries.

Way to beg the question. OK, what determines whether a monster has the ability to mix manufactured and natural weapon attacks?

[Sir Giacomo]

Precisely.

A perennial truth in these threads is that "the best monk is the one that tries hardest at not being a monk". Even Gia knows that, even if he'll never admit it, because all his gonks do is try really hard to be wizard.

A wizard casting enlarge person, magic weapon and divine power on himself? Hmmm....:smallwink:

- Giacomo

[Vexxation]

A wizard casting enlarge person, magic weapon and divine power on himself? Hmmm....:smallwink:

- Giacomo

Wizard, cleric, whatever.

The point is, the monk who tries hardest to be a more effective class will, of course, be more effective than a standard monk.

But not more effective than the class it's attempting to imitate.

[Caros]

Hmm, now I have a new goal in life it seems, looking up spell by spell comparisons of SRD vs. PHB to find where they omitted stuff.

In any case. To answer your question. The text I specified came from Page 233 of both my original beat up first printing PHB, and my 2005 printed, limited edition, sexy leather bound, errata filled PHB.

FYI, the latter is a more recent source than the SRD which was updated to 3.5 when the books released I will state that I might be wrong on this, though I've found no proof after repeated searches that wizards has updated the SRD other than for errata released in late 2004 (All of which is included in my PHB, and in a seperate file on the wizards site that does not include any changes to foresight.

That said? My book is the newer source, and its policy to always use the most recent. Neener neener neener. ^_^

In all seriousness, The text that I presented makes my point, it tells you when you are about to be the target of a spell, and you recieve instantanious warning of it. If you have enough time to theoretically fall prone, jump out of the way, call out to your allies or lord knows, surely you have enough time for an immediate action.

And as I see it, things go something along these lines:

The monk prepares to kill the wizard.
The wizard gets warned "You are about to be attacked. MOVE!"
The monk appears, the wizard is nowhere to be found.

Why does it happen like this. Consider, the moment the monk prepares to cast timestop, the wizard's foresight activates. For the monk, its going to be anywhere between 6-24 seconds before the 'attack.'

For the wizard? One? Maybe? Timestop speeds you up, the rounds are not real.

Anyways, that aside. Non-core, you die to greater anticipate teleport as you teleport in, the wizard gets a 'ding' telling him someone has tried to jump in on him and you are held for three rounds of real time in which the wizard prepares to murder you.

Contingency: Teleport. Should beat the whole thing if worded properly.

And for that matter, you do realize there is a 1 in 4 chance you timestop, teleport next to the wizard and then die horribly as your timestop runs out, he casts celerity and murders you?


A lot of the length of this thread comes about because some people imo refuse to revise their opinions, even after being presented with the hard facts

If you're not including yourself in this.... yeah... pot, kettle... black.


try imagining a 0-point buy build for all classes. Notice something? Right. The monk can use ALL of his class abilities. Most other classes cannot.

AC bonus from wisdom can't be used. Also, many of the class abilities/feats the monk obtains are incredibly weak if the monk does not have the propper stat (STR for grapple disarm, Dex for combat reflexes, Wisdom for Quivering palm/stunning fist. ^_^)

While I'll agree you don't need the stats to gain the feats, to make any decent use out of some of them, you still need the appropriate stat. Furthermore, some, such as disarm are less useful for a monk than for others. (Lets hear it for the +8 difference between a barbarian trying to disarm someone and a monk doing the same thing.)

I do see your point. Just don't entirely agree with it. The arguement regarding MAD charachters is thus.

A wizard requires int. He would like other stats, but he can survive by buffing the hell out of himself. A barbarian requires STR, if he hits things hard he does his job. He'd like to rely on armor etc, but *Shrug*.

To fulfil the role the monk was intended, the monk requires several stats. To make up for the -8 AC it loses for not having fullplate requires an 18 in two stats, Or you can go strength and lower your AC, but what about wisdom then, you need that to activate some class abilities (If you take them.)

I'll give, at later levels, its not nearly the same. At later levels the giant early game gaps have thinned a bit, things are a little better. Do you see the arguement now?


Or could sunder the ring of freedom of movement.

Err, fear my gloves. Or fear my wearing 23 nonmagical rings with my true rings disguised with Nystyl's Magic Aura. 2/24 chance, and while you're doing that I kill you. ^_^


Enhancement to armour is also available for the monk (magic vestment spell.

Magic vestment's target line states "Armor or Shield touched." Monk cannot wear armor without losing abilities. So no. No it isn't.


Words regarding defences.

I'll give immunity to poison is kind of useful. Disease, by the time you get it is a joke. Your SR is a huge handicap with this build as you have to willingly lower it for a full round for any spell that you cast on yourself that has SR. Other than that its nice.


Words...Flyby attack... Words

Can you gain flyby attack without a natural fly speed? *Squints and couldn't find it in the build.

Anywho, thats enough for now I think. Off to play some warhammer, you guys have a good arguement. ^_^

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Way to beg the question. OK, what determines whether a monster has the ability to mix manufactured and natural weapon attacks?

To my knowledge there no official guidelines or notes on how they arrived at this decision.

Clearly there is discrimination against anything without limbs with claws/hands that are not used for walking.

To find the answer for any given creature you open the MM entry and look at the full attack line to see what the designers had intended for that particular creature.

[Kurald Galain]

A wizard casting enlarge person, magic weapon and divine power on himself? Hmmm....:smallwink:

Yes, and why not? Wizards can melee quite well if they want to. What did you think touch spells were for, or Tenser's Transformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transformation.htm)? The result is, as usual, more effective than the gonk, because a wizard who tries to be a fighter is still a wizard, thus top-tier, whereas a monk who tries to be a wizard is still a bottom-tier. Pearls to swine.

[Vexxation]

Magic vestment's target line states "Armor or Shield touched." Monk cannot wear armor without losing abilities. So no. No it isn't.

Hate to say it, but, I was gonna respond exactly like that. Unfortunately...


You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level).

An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell.

Hm...actually, does that mean that his clothes count for armor for the purpose of the spell?
Because that's what I'd rule.
Thus he chooses between the +5 from magic vestment and all his class abilities.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Hm...actually, does that mean that his clothes count for armor for the purpose of the spell?

Yes, both only for the purpose of the spell, not when considering if the monk is unarmored.


Because that's what I'd rule.
Thus he chooses between the +5 from magic vestment and all his class abilities.


And so, he can have both.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Hm...actually, does that mean that his clothes count for armor for the purpose of the spell?
Because that's what I'd rule.
Thus he chooses between the +5 from magic vestment and all his class abilities.

No, that's just screwing over the monk, it just means the spell can also effect ordinary clothes.

[Vexxation]

Yes, both only for the purpose of the spell, not when considering if the monk is unarmored.



And so, he can have both.

Well, that's bunk.
BUNK! I say.

Silly that he could have an enhancement bonus to his armor while still being unarmored.
It boggles the mind.
But that's magic.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Well, that's bunk.
BUNK! I say.

Silly that he could have an enhancement bonus to his armor while still being unarmored.
It boggles the mind.
But that's magic.

It's gets better, he can have an armour bonus to AC and still use his class features, there called bracers of armour IIRC.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

It boggles the mind.

Considering the name of the spell it would be a little weird if it affected armor, but not garment.

[Vexxation]

It's gets better, he can have an armour bonus to AC and still use his class features, there called bracers of armour IIRC.

Well, yeah, but those are explicitly stated as being like mage armor; an invisible but tangible force. An enhancement bonus to armor is supposed to enhance the armor; make it better. I also find it silly that he could have a +8 armor bonus from bracers and a +5 enhancement bonus to his "armor" and have them stack.

Because absurd as it is, it seems to obey the rules.

[Sir Giacomo]

Of course, you fail to post that the Bracers (I believe they go up to +8) cost 1000.X^Y, so your best Bracers would cost 64000 gp. I will grant that Monks get the highest AC bonus regarding to Touch (It's pretty obvious, really).

Mage armour is enough, so the only thing you need is high enough WIS and monk AC bonus to equate the remaining 4 points of armour advantage. Plus the shield bonus (if any, many meleers in full plate will wish to wield two-handed weapons for power attack). BOTH touch and total AC will eventually be the highest on the monk - though there may be monk builds that do not have that high AC or lower than meleers armoured and shielded to the max. But if a monk puts all his efforts into high AC, he'll get the highest AC.


However, your build simply has too many UMD items for me to really consider it the 'best' at anything. Hopefully you understand this too. The posters have proven (Quite repeatedly, in fact) that you cannot reliably cast high level scrolls, some of which have almost begun to be integral to your build just so that the wizard doesn't auto-kill you.

Well, it depends on the wording of "reliably". AMF is the only in-combat scroll spell, and it can be activated safely (+30 UMD) by level 17, with the help of other buffs. Spells like time stop and even shapechange can be safely activated outside of combat. And you'll never find a post of mine that said otherwise.


***

Please, do me a favor.

Do not respond to my post until you can do the following:

List EVERY UMD item you have spoken of using thus far. Hide from Animals, Scroll of Shapechange, even if you only mentioned it in passing or to quickly debunk an idea, I want to see EVERY item you've accumulated thus far.

Next to each item, list the price. For wands, per charge. If you feel inclined, you can also show the full price of the wand next to the charge price, for those posters (such as myself) who don't agree with your theory of being able to aquire such an abundance of partially-charged wands.

At this point, if you feel bored, feel free to add the UMD DC of every item. Most of them should be 20, of course. Wands and all. For scrolls, if you do not have the appropriate ability score, list that DC as well.

Add up the price of everything (By wand charge, not by full wand price. To be fair.) Then multiply it by 5. (5 of every UMD is a bad estimate, I know. Unfortunately, you have not, a poster has not, and I have not been able to thus far figure how many of each item will be spent over the course of a career. Consider yourself lucky that I only ask for a 5x multiplier.) When you find that total, realize that that's how much in liquid wealth that you won't have to spend on permanent items by 20th level, because you've already burnt it up. While sure, according to your beliefs monks don't have too much item dependency compared to other classes, you cannot deny that your monk has quite the high upkeep cost.

I eagerly await your findings, and do note that said list will be recalled each time you add another item to the monk's list of items, and the total retallied. It isn't just that I'm being petty (I am, I'll admit it), but such a list HAS been requested before, and will be infinitely useful to both you and your opponents.

No, this is not how it works.
I provided a list of many ideas how a certain wand budget can be used. To concretely determine what kind of wands the joker monk player eventually takes, you should know more about the campaign.
For 6th level, I provided an example of what kind of wands he'd have with him. But it could be different for a different setting (say, a duel). Similar to a wizard who gets different equipment and spells when facing a non-caster opponent in a duel or when having to get by in a campaign with only undead as enemies (and no clerics).

I provided the costs of spells per use from wands already in the guide - no need to detail them again here. Plus, I suggested already some wands there. Plus, multiplying the cost x5 would only be appropriate for one-shot adventures, not the normal case.

The UMD DCs are 20 most of the time, as you correctly said. Thus, by level 15, most likely by level 11 (or even earlier), the joker monk can safely activate the spells. Before that, he'll LIKELY be able to activate them, definitely outside combat, and in combat thanks to his concealment/hiding/superiormove/superior stealth tactics.

This should be enough for you. You cannot ask me to come up with a monk that is equipped for ALL kind of challenges that you may think up, because this is not possible in the game (even the wizard fails here).
The purpose of the guide is to show a monk within the core rules capable of overcoming all CR appropriate challenges of the core game and contribute in a group. Something that was and is still denied by posters on these and other boards.

- Giacomo

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

It's gets better, he can have an armour bonus to AC and still use his class features, there called bracers of armour IIRC.


Well, yeah, but those are explicitly stated as being like mage armor; an invisible but tangible force. An enhancement bonus to armor is supposed to enhance the armor; make it better. I also find it silly that he could have a +8 armor bonus from bracers and a +5 enhancement bonus to his "armor" and have them stack.

Because absurd as it is, it seems to obey the rules.

Note, Magic Vestment also grants and armor bonus and would not stack with the Bracers or Armor.

[Vexxation]

Note, Magic Vestment also grants and armor bonus and would not stack with the Bracers or Armor.

Well, that makes me feel much happier about the sanity of the rules.
Thanks much.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Note, Magic Vestment also grants and armor bonus and would not stack with the Bracers or Armor.

If that were true then a +1 platemail would grant just as much to AC as a platemail, obviously that isn't the case so they stack.

Edit:
You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels
clearly it's not an armour bonus.

[AmberVael]

No Fenix, they don't.
The thing is that an enhancement bonus doesn't give YOU a bonus, it gives the target a bonus- in this case, the clothing he is wearing. Thus, the clothing has a +5 enhancement bonus in terms of providing armor class.
That means that the character has available a +5 armor bonus from clothing, and a +8 armor bonus from the bracers.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

If that were true then a +1 platemail would grant just as much to AC as a platemail, obviously that isn't the case so they stack.

Edit:
clearly it's not an armour bonus.

Enhancements bonuses to armor increase the armor bonus from the armor. Your plate mail +1 would provide an armor bonus one higher than a regular plate mail, so you do benefit from enhancement bonuses to armor, but they do not stack with other enhancements bonuses to armor or other armor bonuses, such as a leather armor (subject to a +5 enhancement from Magic Vestment) stacking with a +8 Bracers of armor for instance.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Shields

Shield enhancement bonuses stack with armor enhancement bonuses.

then why does the SRD contain this line with shield enchantments?

Edit:

Enhancement Bonus
Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor's bonus to AC, they don't apply against touch attacks.
And this?

[Ascension]

then why does the SRD contain this line with shield enchantments?

Armor and shields are two different sources of AC. Armor and magic-stuff-that-acts-like-armor are one source of AC. That's just how the rules work.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

then why does the SRD contain this line with shield enchantments?

Edit:

And this?

They increase/enhance the already existing bonus and are of the same type.

I am not sure how well it is spelled out in the SRD, but is is detailed again on page 21 of the RC.


An enhancement bonus represents an increase in an armor
bonus, a natural armor bonus, or a shield bonus.

[AmberVael]

Because again, Enhancement bonuses increase one object / or creature's bonus.

So I can have an armor bonus, an enhancement bonus on my armor, a shield bonus, an enhancement bonus on my shield, a natural armor bonus, and an enhancement bonus on my natural armor. That all works, because you're just increasing scores that do stack with each other.

Enhancement bonus is not a type of score that you get to armor class. Enhancement bonus is a bonus that increases other bonuses.

As such, when you have Mr. Gonk wearing bracers of armor (which grant +8 to armor class), and his clothing, he gets +8 to armor class.
When he casts Magic Vestments on his clothing, that clothing's armor bonus goes up from +0 to +5- but the +5 bonus is still an armor bonus. The bracers of armor also provide a +8 armor bonus, so the +5 and +8 don't stack.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

If enchantment bonuses stack, then why was the first line needed? Why did they not simply print a reminder in the sense of:"remember that because this enchantment bonus is to the shield it stack with those to amour and nat. armour."?
And to me the usage of "effective" suggest they're not actual armour/shield bonuses.

However if the rules compendium states otherwise I'll believe it, newer source over-rules after all.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hmm, now I have a new goal in life it seems, looking up spell by spell comparisons of SRD vs. PHB to find where they omitted stuff.

Well, that post comes across much calmer - that's great. And I see more and more what you mean.

In all seriousness, The text that I presented makes my point, it tells you when you are about to be the target of a spell, and you recieve instantanious warning of it. If you have enough time to theoretically fall prone, jump out of the way, call out to your allies or lord knows, surely you have enough time for an immediate action.

Yes, under normal circumstances, you should have enough time for an immediate action, even when you lose initiative. But you do not get a surprise round yourself. Meaning: no suprise round, round 1 starts when the AMF hits. And casting is thus no longer possible (not even an immediate action).

And as I see it, things go something along these lines:

The monk prepares to kill the wizard.
The wizard gets warned "You are about to be attacked. MOVE!"
The monk appears, the wizard is nowhere to be found.

No, the wizard cannot move when he loses initiative, since that is not an immediate action. The spell does not say anything about the wizard being provided with additional actions, only that he is never flat-footed or surprised. What the spell prevents is that the monk pops up with the AMF on AND gets a surprise round.

Why does it happen like this. Consider, the moment the monk prepares to cast timestop, the wizard's foresight activates. For the monk, its going to be anywhere between 6-24 seconds before the 'attack.'

For the wizard? One? Maybe? Timestop speeds you up, the rounds are not real.

Yes, correct.

Anyways, that aside. Non-core, you die to greater anticipate teleport as you teleport in, the wizard gets a 'ding' telling him someone has tried to jump in on him and you are held for three rounds of real time in which the wizard prepares to murder you.

So outside core, the monk should try not to use a teleport effect, but use his high move (also more realistic in a way, because how could the monk locate the wizard across the globe in the first place? It woudl at least be tricky)

Contingency: Teleport. Should beat the whole thing if worded properly.

And that is so hard. Plus, the AMF suppresses the continency (even when the contingency is set to "teleport home when AMF hits me". Only the wording "when creature gets within 11ft of me" would help, but that gets triggered quite often....).

And for that matter, you do realize there is a 1 in 4 chance you timestop, teleport next to the wizard and then die horribly as your timestop runs out, he casts celerity and murders you?

Only with anticipate teleport (and if anticpate teleport is used). How long does anticipate teleport last? Will it be up 24/7.
Plus, I also noticed that mind blank probably will make the foresight spell useless - or not warn the wizard of the mind blanked monk.

AC bonus from wisdom can't be used.

But it's a BONUS. The ability is the overall monk AC bonus - and this he still receives.

Also, many of the class abilities/feats the monk obtains are incredibly weak if the monk does not have the propper stat (STR for grapple disarm, Dex for combat reflexes, Wisdom for Quivering palm/stunning fist. ^_^)

Yep. But he can still use them.

While I'll agree you don't need the stats to gain the feats, to make any decent use out of some of them, you still need the appropriate stat. Furthermore, some, such as disarm are less useful for a monk than for others. (Lets hear it for the +8 difference between a barbarian trying to disarm someone and a monk doing the same thing.)

Hmm. An enlarged monk at level 6 with a quarterstaff (TH wpon) and improved disarm has already +16 to disarm (not counting STR and other stuff). The only advantage of the barbarian is +2 (BAB) and +2 (STR, only when raging). And ONLY if he spent 2 of his 3-4 feats on getting improved disarm and ONLY if he got INT 13.

I do see your point. Just don't entirely agree with it. The arguement regarding MAD charachters is thus.

A wizard requires int. He would like other stats, but he can survive by buffing the hell out of himself. A barbarian requires STR, if he hits things hard he does his job. He'd like to rely on armor etc, but *Shrug*.

To fulfil the role the monk was intended, the monk requires several stats. To make up for the -8 AC it loses for not having fullplate requires an 18 in two stats, Or you can go strength and lower your AC, but what about wisdom then, you need that to activate some class abilities (If you take them.)

I'll give, at later levels, its not nearly the same. At later levels the giant early game gaps have thinned a bit, things are a little better. Do you see the arguement now?

Hmmm. OK. Probably the monk MAD myth stems from people expecting too much of the class when first looking at it. It is not a typical melee class, although it delivers its special attacks by melee.
For instance, the monk does not quite NEED such a high AC when he is focusing on grappling in lower levels. Because in a grapple check, AC is useless. Then at higher levels his WIS and DEX increase, plus some items (including mage armour) gets more reliabel - and then he'll have high enough AC. Add to this that, as I showed above, the monk AC bonus with WIS 18 by level 20 equates a full plate. With higher WIS, earlier. With monk's belt even earlier. No need to even have DEX 18 - though it would certainly be nice.
Similarly, the class does not need so many hp since it is more a "hit an run" kind of combat character; also using a lot of stealth.

Err, fear my gloves. Or fear my wearing 23 nonmagical rings with my true rings disguised with Nystyl's Magic Aura. 2/24 chance, and while you're doing that I kill you. ^_^

Yep, that's quite a good countertactics. And countertactics again to that? True Seeing maybe?:smallsmile:

Magic vestment's target line states "Armor or Shield touched." Monk cannot wear armor without losing abilities. So no. No it isn't.

I guess that has been clarifed by now. Cloth qualifies.

I'll give immunity to poison is kind of useful. Disease, by the time you get it is a joke. Your SR is a huge handicap with this build as you have to willingly lower it for a full round for any spell that you cast on yourself that has SR. Other than that its nice.

You get the immunity to disease at low level, when there are quite a few MM creatures able to do disease damage. And again, SR is not a handicap since the monk's own buffs bypass his SR.

Can you gain flyby attack without a natural fly speed? *Squints and couldn't find it in the build.

The prerequisite is flying speed. The moment the monk does not fly, he loses the feat. The moment he flies, he regains it.

Anywho, thats enough for now I think. Off to play some warhammer, you guys have a good arguement. ^_^
OK, enjoy!

- Giacomo

[Caros]

Just a note. The 1 in 4 chance of you dying refers to the fact that, 1 out of every four times this tactic is tried, you roll a 1 on the timestop scroll, teleport, timestop ends, initiative is rolled and the mage kills you.

The contingency is "If I am ever 'about' to enter an antimagic field." Its straightforward and concise which is all that contingency requires. If I am ever about to enter an antimagic field, teleport me to my sanctum. Nowhere under contingency does it say that you need to be aware of the condition, the wording just needs to be clear. I also see no reason it would not activate during timestop.


But it's a BONUS. The ability is the overall monk AC bonus - and this he still receives.

The point is, the monk loses access to a portion of a class ability by not having high stats, just as he loses access to a lot of the power of quivering palm by not having a high wisdom.


Yep. But he can still use them.

Name a barbarian class ability that can't be used if you have a low stat.

Name a fighter ability


And again, SR is not a handicap since the monk's own buffs bypass his SR.

Source? You cannot willingly fail to have your SR affect a spell.

In fact, its actually a standard action to lower your SR as detailed under page 177 of the PHB. Your wands and scrolls can't easily beat SR 23 or higher. =/


I guess that has been clarifed by now. Cloth qualifies.

Just to clarify. Your monk is now wearing armor then? Your shirt obviously isn't a shield, but if it qualifies for armor, then it breaks the monk AC bonus that specifies 'No Armor'. I'm confused. ^_^

And just to clarify, what specifically are you using for armor. Bracers and the enhancement bonus won't stack... at least to my knowledge. If you wear Chainmail +1 and bracers of armor +8, You get either +6, or +8. Correct?

Thats enough for now. More warhammer.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Just to clarify. Your monk is now wearing armor then? Your shirt obviously isn't a shield, but if it qualifies for armor, then it breaks the monk AC bonus that specifies 'No Armor'. I'm confused. ^_^

This was covered very recently in this thread.

It counts as armor for the purpose of the spell only, not for other purposes.

The monk may wear clothing (and is advised to do so in many cities) and still be considered not wearing armor whether magic vestment has been cast on the clothing.

[Arbitrarity]

"A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities. "
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellResistance

[Fenix_of_Doom]

For instance, the monk does not quite NEED such a high AC when he is focusing on grappling in lower levels. Because in a grapple check, AC is useless.

that's simply not true, first you only gain an effective +4 bonus to AC while you grapple, so it's only less important while grappling. Second you do on occasion get attacked while your not grappling, you still need to defend against those attacks.
examples: even if your grapple checks are good you'll still lose them and get full attacked every once in a while.
even with tumble you sometimes get a AOO against you.
If archers see you are an easy target they might target you.
You also seem to forget that you can still be attacked from outside the grapple while your grappling.

You do not have the HP/Con to withstand all these attacks, thus you need AC.

[Signmaker]

This was covered very recently in this thread.

It counts as armor for the purpose of the spell only, not for other purposes.

The monk may wear clothing (and is advised to do so in many cities) and still be considered not wearing armor whether magic vestment has been cast on the clothing.

Obviously, should this discussion have ended a different way, a Female Monk's most important stat would be her Cha. :smallamused:

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Plus, I also noticed that mind blank probably will make the foresight spell useless - or not warn the wizard of the mind blanked monk.

Erm no, foresight detects actions not thoughts

[Skjaldbakka]

Way to beg the question. OK, what determines whether a monster has the ability to mix manufactured and natural weapon attacks?

To my knowledge there no official guidelines or notes on how they arrived at this decision.

That is incredibly annoying. :smallannoyed:

Oh well.

[Covered In Bees]

that's simply not true, first you only gain an effective +4 bonus to AC while you grapple, so it's only less important while grappling. Second you do on occasion get attacked while your not grappling, you still need to defend against those attack.
examples: even if your grapple checks are good you'll still lose them and get full attacked every once in a while.
even with tumble you sometimes get a AOO against you.
If archers see you are an easy target they might target you.
You also seem to forget that you can still be attacked from outside the grapple while your grappling.

You do not have the HP/Con to withstand all these attacks, thus you need AC.

I guess the "Giamonk" (can't we just call it "the monk who grinds up magic items and snorts them like cocaine"?) never fights enemies who aren't alone (since when he's grappling one, he and his -65 AC are a sitting duck for every other orc with an axe nearby.

[Stupendous_Man]

giamonk is the easiest name we can do other than coming close to a racial insult

anywyas, gia, i asked this before and some others have asked since, but i kinda have a hard time figuring out how yuo'd buy all that stuff for a monk in game and have gp left over for other stuff like buying better weapons and stuff.

i think i called it budgeting or something?

yeah, so... i mean, budgeting seems like it would be an issue from here.

can you tell me how you'd spend gp from level 1 to 4? i guess its hard to say how many encounter's you'd face so you can't just say, say, i buy 14 potions of cure light wounds, but it help me get what's going on

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

That is incredibly annoying. :smallannoyed:

Oh well.

It is one of those things you add to the list while sighing before you proceed to eat some more popcorn and evaluate the quality of persistent Monk threads on certain message boards.

[Covered In Bees]

giamonk is the easiest name we can do other than coming close to a racial insult

anywyas, gia, i asked this before and some others have asked since, but i kinda have a hard time figuring out how yuo'd buy all that stuff for a monk in game and have gp left over for other stuff like buying better weapons and stuff.

i think i called it budgeting or something?

yeah, so... i mean, budgeting seems like it would be an issue from here.

can you tell me how you'd spend gp from level 1 to 4? i guess its hard to say how many encounter's you'd face so you can't just say, say, i buy 14 potions of cure light wounds, but it help me get what's going on

At 1-4, he's fine with Enlarge Person (it's actually USING a wand in combat that's the problem... so he's going to rely on potions). It's how he affords the Divine Power, Holy Sword, Blink, Fly, and the rest of the level 3-4 wands that boggles my mind.

Also, the fact that he seems to really and honestly think he'll be able to have 5 buff rounds before 90% of his encounters. I've never met anyone wiht such a... peculiar... idea of how D&D works before.

[Stupendous_Man]

if it works from 1-4, it doesn't later on?

do things get too expensive too fast or something?

[Griffin131]

do things get too expensive too fast or something?
Yes.
1234567890

[Covered In Bees]

if it works from 1-4, it doesn't later on?

do things get too expensive too fast or something?

A potion of enlarge person is 50 gp (if you ignore the 250 gp mistake in the SRD).

A Wand of Divine Power is 20,000 gp. A third-level wand is 10,000 gp. Another one is 10,000 more GP. Yes, things get very expensive, especially since you have to keep replacing them, and he seems to be relying on "partially charged wands" (oh, man, you can tell he's desperate to have pulled that little chestnut out) to afford them.

If he spends 50k on wands, that's 50k he hasn't spend on other equipment, which means he's more and more reliant on his imaginary buff rounds and wands, which means he goes through them faster and needs more sooner.

It's like a crack habit. It gets out of control.

[Arakune]

In all seriousness, The text that I presented makes my point, it tells you when you are about to be the target of a spell, and you recieve instantanious warning of it. If you have enough time to theoretically fall prone, jump out of the way, call out to your allies or lord knows, surely you have enough time for an immediate action.

Yes, under normal circumstances, you should have enough time for an immediate action, even when you lose initiative. But you do not get a surprise round yourself. Meaning: no suprise round, round 1 starts when the AMF hits. And casting is thus no longer possible (not even an immediate action).

And as I see it, things go something along these lines:

The monk prepares to kill the wizard.
The wizard gets warned "You are about to be attacked. MOVE!"
The monk appears, the wizard is nowhere to be found.

No, the wizard cannot move when he loses initiative, since that is not an immediate action. The spell does not say anything about the wizard being provided with additional actions, only that he is never flat-footed or surprised. What the spell prevents is that the monk pops up with the AMF on AND gets a surprise round.
- Giacomo

No, we are talking about Foresight-Celerity here,in which case he have that immediate action.

Think about it this way:

Pseudo-round 1:
Monk:"I found that wizard, now I'm going to kill him, where is that time stop scroll?"
In somewhere far away...
Wizard:"Okay, now I just have to... Move? Celerity!"

Wizard get's use Celerity and get away, hide, whatever.
Monk use time stop->teleport and found nothing.

Round 1:
Monk: "Wait, what?"

Or this way:

Pseudo-round 1:
Monk:"I found that wizard, now I'm going to..."
Wizard:"Okay, now I just have to... Move?"
Round 1 start:
[roll initiative]
Monk:"to kill him".
[resume actions]

That's a more accurate way and according to the RAW, I guess. Well, the designers didn't though about a battle between two opponents at various kilometers away of each other...

[Stupendous_Man]

A potion of enlarge person is 50 gp (if you ignore the 250 gp mistake in the SRD).

A Wand of Divine Power is 20,000 gp. A third-level wand is 10,000 gp. Another one is 10,000 more GP. Yes, things get very expensive, especially since you have to keep replacing them, and he seems to be relying on "partially charged wands" (oh, man, you can tell he's desperate to have pulled that little chestnut out) to afford them.

If he spends 50k on wands, that's 50k he hasn't spend on other equipment, which means he's more and more reliant on his imaginary buff rounds and wands, which means he goes through them faster and needs more sooner.

It's like a crack habit. It gets out of control.

and he also says he isn't dependant on the items. your right, it is exaclty liek a crack habit!

[Covered In Bees]

and he also says he isn't dependant on the items.

Oh my god, I was even more right than I thought! I propose that from now on the Giamonk be referred to as the Crack Monk.

[dman11235]

I agree.

Okay, now statting out how much stuff he has. Permanent enlarge person and greater magic fang (no reason not to assume the best possible method): 12,230. Times three, in case of a dispel, or we can get a ring of counter spells I'll assume, again, the best possible method, and take the ring. +6 items on five stats: 180,000. +5 tome on two stats, more on others, but I'll assume this price (I'm under estimating, and the +10 can be spread between necessary stats as needed: same price): 275,000. Wands: 42,000 for divine power and holy sword (assuming you can get one of holy sword...), 22,500 for blink and fly. That's before the others that I am not aware of him having. +8 bracers, +5 deflection, +5 NA combine to be 164,000. This is hardly all that a monk needs in the way of items and it's ALREADY almost 700,000 gp. From a supposedly not item dependent character. Who uses 5 or more rounds to buff from his expensive expendables that he had to spend cross-class skill points to gain access to and pay attention to a normal dump stat to get access to, AND requires the use of another person to get. Double that wand cost for the adventuring fee of every 50 or fewer battles I need new ones. That's an average of 12.5 days, at 4 battles per day. And the rogue does everything he does, and yet better.

Not to mention that it's hardly the class that's doing this. What advice here can I not apply to the commoner? Ask that of yourself when trying to prove a classes worth. If the advice can be applied equally well to a commoner, you have failed. Yes, my commoner can be a melee machine if I do everything here you said. He's good with grappling, and good with melee damage. And he can provide an army with food. Can you do that? You don't have infinite chickens.Before you say something like "but how does he have full BAB!" or "My unarmed damage is better so I'm better!" Think about this. You got full BAB from something other than your class. So does the commoner. Your unarmed damage is an average of 11, his is 1.5. But since base damage rarely determines how much damage you do, it doesn't matter. Only if you can get it upwards of 6d8 does it actually start to matter, and only when you hit 12d8 do you start to shine in that department. And guess what? Only by getting out of the monk class can you do that. I go into this in depth in my handbook.

[Benejeseret]

As much as I agree that a junkie monk does not quite fit my definition of a useful monk, I do find it interesting that my second monk build posted was similarly labeled as 'so unlike a monk that it no longer qualifies' as fairly narrow.

What I seem to take away from this is that if a build goes outside the perception of a monk (ie. that is sucks) it is no longer seen as a 'monk', and rather as a cop-out.

To me a monk is not 20 lvls of monk, but rather as a build that fits the monk theme and role within the party. Part of that theme should be an unarmored melee combatant focused on perfection of self (so many of the monk abilities) and some unarmed introductions of fist to chin.

This is why I do not overly like giamonk/crack monk concept because from the beginning (cost/mechanics aside) it leaves my concept of the monk theme/role and steps on an artificers toes. It fully embraces the material world and western consumerism....which to me is 180% off the seeking personal perfection and inner peace mentality of a monk.

Take my above build (shifter monk12/weretouched5/warshaper3) and let's get rid of the monk variant wildshape. I even think monk 15/weretouched5 would work. To me this still follows the path of self perfection...in a very physical way and is still quite potent. He is seeking to bring his body into a perfect state of his ideal (which being a Shifter is becoming one with his inner animal).

Using enlarge from items or party members achieves the same thing as the wildshape...it makes you bigger, increases your str, ups damage dice. Yet the first is perfectly acceptable and the second supposedly disqualified as 'non-monkish'.

I do not see how an unarmored/unarmed melee combatant who is still using natural and unarmed blows to bring down foes through use of focus and personal body mastery breaks the fit of a monk. He focuses on shifting feats because he is a Shifter....not embracing his heritage would be like a human passing on the extra feat.

[Stupendous_Man]

i want my monks ot be... monks

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

To me a monk is not 20 lvls of monk, but rather as a build that fits the monk theme and role within the party. Part of that theme should be an unarmored melee combatant focused on perfection of self (so many of the monk abilities) and some unarmed introductions of fist to chin.

This thread really is not about the monk as a concept.

It is an attempt to make a guide to the Monk class that shows the viability of the class.

I do not think you will find many arguing against the monk as a concept, but many will suggest that instead of using the poor class execution in the PHB you could go with, say the Unarmed version of the Swordsage.

[dman11235]

I went into that in depth in my handbook. Outlining the reasons the monk class is so bad, and outlining solutions to them. Most involved prestige classes and psychic warrior.

@Benejeseret: you could greatly improve those builds by removing more monk levels in favor of other PrCs and classes. Fist of the Forest for one is three levels that instantly makes unarmed/unarmored combat viable again.

[Aneantir]

I've read this entire thread, and have kept up with it until this point. Generally, it's been a huge waste of time. Over the course of this thread, 3 things have become completely clear to me, as it probably has to many of you:

#1: Giacomo will not ever believe that he's wrong. He seems to think he is the be-all, end-all of theoretical optimization, and that he can not possibly be wrong about how playable the monk is. He believes that the Monk's weak class features are made up for by proper use of Use Magic Device, and that this gives him the ability to have an answer to every situation.

#2: This is not a thread about Monks at all. The guide in the first post is not one to Monks, but rather to how to run an Artificer in core. {Scrubbed}, it would be more effective to target the use of Use Magic Device as a cross class skill, since basically none of the Monks actual class abilities come into play here, outside of "Superior movement speed this" and "Good saves that". And even if the Monk didn't have these things, his seemingly limitless hole in his pocket would allow Giacomo to say "Well, he'd just catch the wizard by using Phantom Steed from this wand that the monk happens to have".

#3: This is not, and never has been, practical optimization. This is Theoretical only. This is the kind of guide that shouldn't be a guide at all, since it is basically impossible for any of this to be put into practice in any games that don't have you working at drug lord wealth levels with 64 point buy. Unless you are literally being handed all of the items on your Monks wish list, this guide doesn't mean jack.

This brings me to one conclusion. {scrubbed} If you wish to argue the effectiveness of the Monk class, argue it with Monk class features. If you say you used Use Magic Device to gain one benefit, it can be as easily said that Use Magic Device was used to counter it, so it just boils down to is the Monk class capable on it's own, either give us a reason to choose Monk over a Barbarian, Fighter, Commoner, Aristocrat, or whatever, {scrubbed}

Edit: Since people seem to be on the topic of Monk-Archtype builds, try this on for size:
Changling Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Warshaper 3/Fist of the Forest 3/Warmind 10. My personally favorite build, using Wild Talent to qualify for Warmind. I use it with a quarterstaff for the true-ascetic feel. Plays like a monk, but isn't as MAD, and you get the bonus of being able to impersonate people. Or grow antlers at will, but thats not necessary.

[Stupendous_Man]

dude, chill

[Aneantir]

dude, chill

Sorry about that :smalltongue: Been reading this thing for a while now, and it's bothered me greatly how it's been dealt with on Giacomo's side.

[Nebo_]

Giacomo, you are a moron or a troll. There is no possible way that anyone could possibly believe the crap that you write about the monk, so I'm leaning towards the latter. Do you not understand that you are a laughing stock? People ridicule you and have no respect for you whatsoever.

[Talic]

Forum posting rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?f=30&a=1).

Linking this as a courtesy. I'd personally like this to be an argument for and against some of the views in the thread, rather than some of the people. This thread's been going on for some time, and I'd hate to see that change.

That said, I think that the part on UMD being countered by UMD has merit. If one can have it, why not another? If one can have the wand of bull's strength, and the scroll of divine power, why can't the opponent have the scroll of dispel magic? I mean, many of the standard UMD tactics in this thread get shut down cold by that.

[Nebo_]

I'm aware, but thanks anyway. I've simply stopped caring.

[Kurald Galain]

I've read this entire thread, and have kept up with it until this point. Generally, it's been a huge waste of time. Over the course of this thread, 3 things have become completely clear to me, as it probably has to many of you:

Calm down, dude! It's not like anything in this thread was serious to begin with.

(I mean come on, it's called "beating Batman" and the character to do so is named after the fictional villain most known for being completely unable to beat Batman... if that doesn't convince you this is one huge pile of parody, perhaps the non sequiturs will)

:smallbiggrin:

Popcorn, anyone?

[Freelance Henchman]

That said, I think that the part on UMD being countered by UMD has merit. If one can have it, why not another? If one can have the wand of bull's strength, and the scroll of divine power, why can't the opponent have the scroll of dispel magic? I mean, many of the standard UMD tactics in this thread get shut down cold by that.

Because Monks are supposed (but are not really at all) to be very independent of items, and they *supposedly* should be able to use their many class features, good saves and speed etc. to counter as much enemy magic as possible I think (Dispel isn't very effective if the target doesn't actually have or need any buffs). Instead, the Giamonk is built around using an almost literal warehouse of wands, scrolls and items, which makes it totally useless without them.

I remember the lame "party is imprisoned and item-less, now what?" argument being brought up months ago, where the Monk was supposedly so great because he can fight without a weapon and armor. Well, the Giamonk is now even more screwed (assuming he ever got all the items in the first place), isn't he?

[Frost]

I remember the lame "party is imprisoned and item-less, now what?" argument being brought up months ago, where the Monk was supposedly so great because he can fight without a weapon and armor. Well, the Giamonk is now even more screwed (assuming he ever got all the items in the first place), isn't he?

Indeed, this always entertains me.

"Monk is so awesome cause he can do stuff without any equipment!"

Sorcerer: I cast X and own.
Fighter: I pick up a club or a sword of a fallen enemy.
Cleric: I'm whittling my Holy symbol.
Druid: I transform into a bear and then buff. Later I'll find some mistle toe and be just as good.
Barbarian: WAAHG!
Wizard: I cast Teleport or use my Teleport SLA and pick up one of my 500 Secret Page copies of my spellbook.

Upon freeing themselves, half the PHB classes become better then the Monk within a minute, if not immediately.

Yes you could say they are level 1 or 5 or whatever to remove some of these options, but nothing changes the fact that a Fighter or Barbarian with a Non-Magic Club is actually a much better fighter than an itemless Monk.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hello again,

this time, I'll try to focus on two posts, one friendly, the other less so, to provide more explanation about the joker monk concept and build. Hope this answers other posts as well that voiced similar questions.

First, @Caros: time stop yields a minimum of 2 rounds. On the rest...hmm, I guess it is really tricky (personally I do not like this non-core celerity stuff for that reason; note also that the joker monk could get that with UMD). My ruling as a DM would be to only take what the foresight spell writes and not allow a casting of the immediate action in the surprise round, since there is not any. The actions of the combat start in round 1, when AMF is already active. An immediate action celerity can interrupt someone else winning initiative (and no-one will get a surprise round against you, due to foresight).
And I also wonder whether mind blank on the monk vs foresight would be of help until AMF is up?
It's a difficult call. But luckily the joker monk guide is based on core rules only.


giamonk is the easiest name we can do other than coming close to a racial insult

anywyas, gia, i asked this before and some others have asked since, but i kinda have a hard time figuring out how yuo'd buy all that stuff for a monk in game and have gp left over for other stuff like buying better weapons and stuff.

i think i called it budgeting or something?

yeah, so... i mean, budgeting seems like it would be an issue from here.

can you tell me how you'd spend gp from level 1 to 4? i guess its hard to say how many encounter's you'd face so you can't just say, say, i buy 14 potions of cure light wounds, but it help me get what's going on

A good way to start is check my guide for levels 1-4. In the stat block you'll find suggestions for permanent magic (and mundane items), and in the description text, you'll find some hints on how to use those. Plus suggestion for the wand budget.
Meanwhile, I'd probably overhaul the low levels to include more potions of enlarge (a key buff that sometimes you do not get enough time for UMDing with a wand, although the wand is much cheaper). Also, a horn of fog would be great since you'll likely make great use of having safely concealment/total concealment at all times if you need it (it also provides you often with enough time to buff with UMD).

The key buffs in levels 1-4 are: enlarge, obscuring mist, mage armour. You can also flurry with a shillelagh staff (and hit incorporal creatures with it). Sometimes you may also wish to get off a 2nd level effect like bull's strenght (90gp per use from a wand) or heroism (120 gp per use). This gives you additional oomph, with the first meaning there are hardly any CR 1-6 creatures able to outgrapple you.
Invisbility you'll not need as much as batman, for instance, since you have the hide skill. Similarly, see invisibiltiy is not yet so important for you, and you can get a similar effect with the lower-level (only 15gp per use) faerie fire spell, since you have a good listen skill.
Note also that the UMD wand stuff is there FOR EMERGENCY use. The best buff to get (also most of the time for free, although many wizard uberness believers do not like that) are from a fellow pc caster (in particular the long-term buffs like mage armour for longer duration). To support that, pearls of power are suggested as part of joker monk equipment (needless to say they are useless in solo campaings, duels or groups without non-spontaneous casters). You can even hand (some of) your wands to the spellcaster to buff you as long as your UMD is not that high enough yet for critical situations.
But sometimes you'll play in a group without arcane caster or cleric, and then you'll be more dependent on your own wands.

I hope that helped.

Now on to....


I've read this entire thread, and have kept up with it until this point. Generally, it's been a huge waste of time.

Then I'm truly sorry. Since reading the whole thread must have taken hours (it's a book's length by now)...

Over the course of this thread, 3 things have become completely clear to me, as it probably has to many of you:

#1: Giacomo will not ever believe that he's wrong. He seems to think he is the be-all, end-all of theoretical optimization, and that he can not possibly be wrong about how playable the monk is. He believes that the Monk's weak class features are made up for by proper use of Use Magic Device, and that this gives him the ability to have an answer to every situation.

And that is the problem, and also the reason why this thread gets so long. Instead of discussion of monk build variants, or what buffs to take and what the best tactics are etc, the following takes up a lot of space:
Quite a few posters focus on ridiculing the build without any arguments (Nebo is a big fan of this discussion tactics), or not accepting the raw/RAW basics of what a monk can do. And even you - after reading massive amounts of examples, rules clarifications, build ideas, scenarios, combos and data that all prove the monk is not underpowered in core - even you just say "it's a waste of time" without any tangible proof.
That is quite tiring and exhausting, but I still hope that at some point you - among others will see the error of your ways.:smallwink: I hope that playtests like two duels (level 10 and 16) of monk vs wizard will be able to shed more light on the issue, as does the current grappling contest, limited though the deductions for general game settings may be, though.
Another mistake you, Aneantir, make in your point #1 is that you believe the joker monk build is only about UMD. It is a major innovation of that build, but overall I go to great lengths to show that the monk has good and useful class abilities which alone already prevent that he is "underpowered" in core.

#2: This is not a thread about Monks at all. The guide in the first post is not one to Monks, but rather to how to run an Artificer in core. If you choose to continue to argue with the original poster and his senseless ramblings, it would be more effective to target the use of Use Magic Device as a cross class skill, since basically none of the Monks actual class abilities come into play here, outside of "Superior movement speed this" and "Good saves that". And even if the Monk didn't have these things, his seemingly limitless hole in his pocket would allow Giacomo to say "Well, he'd just catch the wizard by using Phantom Steed from this wand that the monk happens to have".

Yep, sure. No thread about monks. Senseless ramblings indeed explaining that yes, a monk can flurry grapple checks, that yes, magic vestment can enhance his clothes to provide higher AC, that yes, his move enhancement comes ontop of fly speed, etc. (see also the FAQ at the beginning of the guide).
Then on this fluff issue whether or not a monk using UMD can be even considered a monk (brought up more friendly by Benejeseret). You can change the fluff however you like, so that mechanics wise, the monk buffs are basically just an additional monastery training the monk receives between levels. It is all already up there in the guide.
There is even a non-core prestige class (I guess it is called Taoist monk) who simply uses runes on his body to buff (with bull's strength, for instance). Where is the difference?
ALL of the buffs I propose are trying to improve existing class abilities and approach the monk to do what we know from the wuxia genre:
Flying (fly, overland flight), superhuman strength (STR buffs, divine power), incredibly tough skin withstanding sword blows (mage armour, barkskin, magical vestment etc); feats of wisdom (owl's wisdom, divination spells). And so on. And so on. Even enlarge could be made fluffwise in only providing the game effects of the spell, but not the fact that he is large (Bruce Lee, after all, also had great reach and STR and grappling advantage, even though he was not all of a sudden 3 metres tall).
Phantom steed is a bad example, since I would normally not suggest a monk needs to have this kind of "buff" (he has good movement himself, can obstruct a wizard using it differently, and also does not have ride as class ability).
And: the wand budget is not "seemingly" endless. That is a fallacy resurfacing time and again in this thread - and I honestly do not understand why. Once again: the joker monk can cast a 1st level wand spell ONE THOUSAND TIMES until level 10. And still have enough money for all kinds of permanent items that do a lot for him (see again the detailed level-by-level builds of the levels in the guide).
Has there ever been a build suggestion met with such an emotional response? But I already provided my theory on this a couple of pages ago.

#3: This is not, and never has been, practical optimization. This is Theoretical only. This is the kind of guide that shouldn't be a guide at all, since it is basically impossible for any of this to be put into practice in any games that don't have you working at drug lord wealth levels with 64 point buy. Unless you are literally being handed all of the items on your Monks wish list, this guide doesn't mean jack.

And interestingly, the guide is built a round an example monk of 28-pt buy, strictly follows all core rules, including wbl guidelines, even the p.199 suggestion of not having an item worth more than 1/4 of respective wbl, and with only core (non-custom) items.
OF COURSE this guide does not provide a monk build that will 100% work in all campaigns, since all campaigns are different. But that also holds true for other classes. In some campaigns you'll want to play a barbarian with a greatsword, but the DM says the only barbarian race are orcs and they only know and ever can learn are primitive/simple weapons. Another player wants to do a great battlefield controller fighter with a spiked chain, but the DM tells him he does not like the weapon for his western medieval campaign, so this build is not possible. Then there are DMs who do not like the idea of magic items being available for sale. Correspondingly, the caster characters in the group with magic item creation feats (even those without) shine, since their opponents will be more vulnerable without magical proteciton otherwise envisioned by the core rules to be present in the game. And so on.

I have played in campaigns with almost no items, in campaigns without casters (historical campains, for instance), campaigns were magic is so commmon that everone has a level of a caster class and there are detecitves with a full set of divination spells to avoid crime. Etc.
But when we are talking about what, as per the rules, the classes can provide, then you have to reach a common ground for discussion - hence the core, basic, ruleset and suggestions of mine for a monk character IN SUCH AN ENVIRONMENT AS ENVISIONED BY THE CORE RULES. And it cannot get more practical than that.
And what happens under these conditions? Surprise! Casters are all of a sudden not so uber anymore, nor is the monk as helpless against them as many wizard uberness believers would believe and have everyone believe.
As per the common core rulesset, it is simply assumed that all characters have massive access to magic, through various ways, and increasingly so with rising levels.

{scrubbed}

I join others to kindly ask you to calm down. I argued with monk class features. When looking at the guide, you'll see that only a small percentage of space is devoted to UMD and what can be done with it, and the rest all belongs to the monk class abilities. Including also a large section that details the stuff that only the monk can do or the monk can do best in the core game. I even provided examples of builds without any UMD, also making use of the big joker monk principle: get buffs and magic to perfect what you already do well.

Edit: Since people seem to be on the topic of Monk-Archtype builds, try this on for size:
Changling Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Warshaper 3/Fist of the Forest 3/Warmind 10. My personally favorite build, using Wild Talent to qualify for Warmind. I use it with a quarterstaff for the true-ascetic feel. Plays like a monk, but isn't as MAD, and you get the bonus of being able to impersonate people. Or grow antlers at will, but thats not necessary.

Link, details, rules please. For that community around here who do not have access to all rules (another reason btw why I kept my build core/SRD).

And you honestly are telling me that most DMs out there would gladly accept such a picked-together-from-various-optional-sources-depending-on-campaign-prestige-class build than a straight level 1-20 core monk build? That is one of the better jokes in this thread. Practical optimisation indeed...:smallamused:

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

Indeed, this always entertains me.

Truly, it is entertaining! But once again, not in the way you think...:smallsmile:

"Monk is so awesome cause he can do stuff without any equipment!"

Sorcerer: I cast X and own.
Yes, when you have relearned and rested, or happen to have some spare spells remaining. And when you cast without material components (remarkably many good spells need those).
Fighter: I pick up a club or a sword of a fallen enemy.
Yep, a club. There goes that weapon specialisation bonus. And you still do less damage than the monk, with less attacks. And where is your armour? Oh, you do not have any AC bonus without equipment? Too bad. Ohhh, look - it's creatures with damage reduction/magic. Ooopsy.
Cleric: I'm whittling my Holy symbol.
Material components? Armour? Weapons? And where will you find a holy symbol of your god in the first place in your enemy's camp?
Druid: I transform into a bear and then buff. Later I'll find some mistle toe and be just as good.CHEESE ALARM FOR USING MORPH STUFF!:smallsmile:
Barbarian: WAAHG!
1d3 + STR dmg, non-lethal. WHAAG. indeed.
Wizard: I cast Teleport or use my Teleport SLA and pick up one of my 500 Secret Page copies of my spellbook.
See ya! Meanwhile, your comrades die...

Upon freeing themselves, half the PHB classes become better then the Monk within a minute, if not immediately.

Nope, they don't. I would never say they're useless. But they do not get better than the monk.

Yes you could say they are level 1 or 5 or whatever to remove some of these options, but nothing changes the fact that a Fighter or Barbarian with a Non-Magic Club is actually a much better fighter than an itemless Monk.

Ah, another one of those "facts".
Please. Look at the damage a club does, and the damage a monk does (including the flurry ability). It even gets worse, the higher the level. In fact, I'd say you only have point at low levels in this - and even then fighter or barbarian would need to find a club in the first place (and what about those other combat needs, like AC?).

- Giacomo

[Patashu]

"Shouting a warning, yanking a person back, and even telepathically communicating (via an appropriate spell) can all be accomplished before some danger befalls the subject, provided you act on the warning without delay."

That kinda text in Foresight implies to me that there would be enough time between the warning and the action that triggered said warning to take an immediate action.

"An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn."

ANY time. What prevents me from taking an immediate action when combat hasn't started period?

EDIT: Oh, here we are: Foresight says you are never flat-footed. The section on immediate actions gives only two conditions for their use: you have not used a swift/immediate action since your last turn and you are not flat-footed. We are neither, so an immediate action can be used to cast Celerity when foresight warns us of danger. Am I missing anything?

[Covered In Bees]

The key buffs in levels 1-4 are: enlarge, obscuring mist, mage armour. You can also flurry with a shillelagh staff (and hit incorporal creatures with it). Sometimes you may also wish to get off a 2nd level effect like bull's strenght (90gp per use from a wand) or heroism (120 gp per use). This gives you additional oomph, with the first meaning there are hardly any CR 1-6 creatures able to outgrapple you.
But they're quite capable of killing you while you hold their buddy in a grapple.

Bull's Strength and Heroism are 90 gp per USE, but the actual WANDS cost 4500 gp each. How are you getting 4,500 gp to spend on two wands at level 1-4?

How are you activating ANY wands in combat with a UMD of +5 at level 2? Hoping to roll a 15+? Yeah, GREAT tactic there.
You have 14 strength. and 1 bab at level 2. Good luck hitting anything with your quarterstaff flurry of +1/+1.
And how do you afford wands of Enlarge, Shillelagh, and Obscuring Mist (750 gp each) at level 1, or 2, or even 3?



And: the wand budget is not "seemingly" endless. That is a fallacy resurfacing time and again in this thread - and I honestly do not understand why. Once again: the joker monk can cast a 1st level wand spell ONE THOUSAND TIMES until level 10. And still have enough money for all kinds of permanent items that do a lot for him (see again the detailed level-by-level builds of the levels in the guide).
Nobody cares about your FIRST-LEVEL wand. But then you suddenly say you have several different second-level wands (4500 gp) at levels 1-4, and everything breaks down.

And just how do you afford enough wands of Divine Power to take you from level... when do you first spend 20,000 gp on one, anyway? (Instead of magic items.)
10,000 gp on Fly, 10,000 gp on Blink, 20,000 gp on Divine Power, and over and over (since you rely on these wands)... what do you do until the level you have 10k, 20k, 40k disposeable cash (and remember, you need basic items for AC, stats, and such first)? Do you realize that you can't spend that money on items (like a Ring of Freedom of Movement) if you spend it on wands?


Has there ever been a build suggestion met with such an emotional response?
Has there ever been a build suggestion that is so horribly unrelated to how D&D is played?

You seem to be clinically unable to discuss what happens when your character doesn't sneak up on a single enemy with his buffs up (if you'd ever actually played D&D, you'd know that this rarely happens). In a game, your monk would die in his very first or second encounter, as he grapples one goblin/orc/whatever and the others kill him.


But when we are talking about what, as per the rules, the classes can provide, then you have to reach a common ground for discussion - hence the core, basic, ruleset and suggestions of mine for a monk character IN SUCH AN ENVIRONMENT AS ENVISIONED BY THE CORE RULES. And it cannot get more practical than that.
And what happens under these conditions? Surprise! Casters are all of a sudden not so uber anymore, nor is the monk as helpless against them as many wizard uberness believers would believe and have everyone believe.
As per the common core rulesset, it is simply assumed that all characters have massive access to magic, through various ways, and increasingly so with rising levels.

I'm not going to get into a massive wall-of-text exchange here.The core rules assume all the characters have access to magic items. They do NOT assume everyone will take UMD as a cross-class skill and frantically max it out, nor do they support it, because you're constantly using up gold other people are investing in permanent items.

[Nebo_]

And you honestly are telling me that most DMs out there would gladly accept such a picked-together-from-various-optional-sources-depending-on-campaign-prestige-class build than a straight level 1-20 core monk build? That is one of the better jokes in this thread. Practical optimisation indeed...:smallamused:
- Giacomo

Yes. There are DMs that allow this sort of thing. Just because you and your DMs don't doesn't, mean others don't.

{scrubbed}

[Sir Giacomo]

"Shouting a warning, yanking a person back, and even telepathically communicating (via an appropriate spell) can all be accomplished before some danger befalls the subject, provided you act on the warning without delay."

That kinda text in Foresight implies to me that there would be enough time between the warning and the action that triggered said warning to take an immediate action.

"An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn."

ANY time. What prevents me from taking an immediate action when combat hasn't started period?

EDIT: Oh, here we are: Foresight says you are never flat-footed. The section on immediate actions gives only two conditions for their use: you have not used a swift/immediate action since your last turn and you are not flat-footed. We are neither, so an immediate action can be used to cast Celerity when foresight warns us of danger. Am I missing anything?

Hmmm, sounds reasonable to me. What about a mind blank effect to thwart foresight?

- Giacomo

[Stupendous_Man]

Yes, when you have relearned and rested, or happen to have some spare spells remaining. And when you cast without material components (remarkably many good spells need those).
alot of good spells don't tho, leik wall of force and pwoer word stun, and delayed blast fireball and disintigrate.

and giacomo, you're forgetting he's as sorcerer. they don't run out of spells.
(at least not before everyone else has run out of hp or magic items)


1d3 + STR dmg, non-lethal. WHAAG. indeed.
my barbarian pulls a gringr and sharpens the jawbone of a large rat to use as a weapon.

[Freelance Henchman]

my barbarian pulls a gringr and sharpens the jawbone of a large rat to use as a weapon.

Or he could rip a door out of it's hinges (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0396.html) and use that as an improvised weapon. Or maybe a chair or table leg, whatever.

[Frost]

Truly, it is entertaining! But once again, not in the way you think...:smallsmile:

You constant insults and insinuations are not appreciated.


Yes, when you have relearned and rested, or happen to have some spare spells remaining. And when you cast without material components (remarkably many good spells need those).

Sorcerer's do not need to learn spells ever, and they certainly have not spent all their spells for the day. And I have no Idea what you think sitting in a jail cell for a couple days is if not resting.


Yep, a club. There goes that weapon specialisation bonus. And you still do less damage than the monk, with less attacks. And where is your armour? Oh, you do not have any AC bonus without equipment? Too bad. Ohhh, look - it's creatures with damage reduction/magic. Ooopsy.

1) No Fighter takes weapon specialization.
2) More damage with more attacks actually.
3) Well depending on my build I either don't care about AC anyway or have Combat Expertise and use mostly touch attacks and attacks on prone enemies. Either way, I hurt a little in AC, but easily make up for it in my greater AC, and superior attacking power.
4) Oh look, it's a creature with DR Magic, I'll just Heedless Charge for more.


Material components? Armour? Weapons? And where will you find a holy symbol of your god in the first place in your enemy's camp?

You may not be familiar with the concept of whittling. It is where you take a block of wood, and carve the shape you want out of it.


CHEESE ALARM FOR USING MORPH STUFF!

{scrubbed}


1d3 + STR dmg, non-lethal. WHAAG. indeed.

1d3+18 (2d3+36 on a charge) versus 1d10+signifigantly lower Str at level say 11. (extra attack and no penalty for Monk, Greater Rage for Barbarian)

Or he could pick up a Club and do 1d6+30 (2d6+60 on a charge).


See ya! Meanwhile, your comrades die...

If only the Teleport spell could take people with you? Or if getting acces to your Spellbook gave you the ability to come back and get them.

Sorry, Wizard's are team players, unlike Sir Robin the Monk.


Nope, they don't. I would never say they're useless. But they do not get better than the monk.

{scrubbed}


Ah, another one of those "facts".
Please. Look at the damage a club does, and the damage a monk does (including the flurry ability). It even gets worse, the higher the level. In fact, I'd say you only have point at low levels in this - and even then fighter or barbarian would need to find a club in the first place (and what about those other combat needs, like AC?).

Please look at the Damage a Fighter does instead of a Club, since at level 10 We are looking at 40-80 damage from Heedless Charging alone.

[Sir Giacomo]

But they're quite capable of killing you while you hold their buddy in a grapple.

That would assume that the monk is alone vs several opponents. Would he use grappling tactics then? Would a wizard cast a fireball into the midst of melee combat of his comrades? No.
Furthermore, going alone vs several opponents means for a level 6 monk that he hardly ever encounters two CR 6 creatures (check the DMG guide on providing appropriate encounters), but rather lower-level ones. And against those, he could even use grappling tactics since his damage output is high enough to down one quickly, and then fight/grapple the other.

Bull's Strength and Heroism are 90 gp per USE, but the actual WANDS cost 4500 gp each. How are you getting 4,500 gp to spend on two wands at level 1-4?

That has already been discussed at length. As per DMG p. 199 you can get partially charged wands for creating higher level pcs.
I'd argue that it is possible even in ongoing campaigns since characters can find and sell partially charged wands, they should also be able to buy them, but that is not completely RAW.
Ah, and heroism (bard spell) is 120gp per use.

How are you activating ANY wands in combat with a UMD of +5 at level 2? Hoping to roll a 15+? Yeah, GREAT tactic there.

Please read the guide again. I outlined many ways to activate wands in combat, and also that many buffs can be activated outside of combat.

You have 14 strength. and 1 bab at level 2. Good luck hitting anything with your quarterstaff flurry of +1/+1.

That is not a matter of luck, it is just a matter of probability. With a second attack, you double your hitting chances.

And how do you afford wands of Enlarge, Shillelagh, and Obscuring Mist (750 gp each) at level 1, or 2, or even 3?

See above.

Nobody cares about your FIRST-LEVEL wand. But then you suddenly say you have several different second-level wands (4500 gp) at levels 1-4, and everything breaks down.

See above.

And just how do you afford enough wands of Divine Power to take you from level... when do you first spend 20,000 gp on one, anyway? (Instead of magic items.)
10,000 gp on Fly, 10,000 gp on Blink, 20,000 gp on Divine Power, and over and over (since you rely on these wands)... what do you do until the level you have 10k, 20k, 40k disposeable cash (and remember, you need basic items for AC, stats, and such first)? Do you realize that you can't spend that money on items (like a Ring of Freedom of Movement) if you spend it on wands?

See above.

Has there ever been a build suggestion that is so horribly unrelated to how D&D is played?

You seem to be clinically unable to discuss what happens when your character doesn't sneak up on a single enemy with his buffs up (if you'd ever actually played D&D, you'd know that this rarely happens). In a game, your monk would die in his very first or second encounter, as he grapples one goblin/orc/whatever and the others kill him.

"Clinically unable to discuss" - that's a good one.:smallsmile:

Anyhow, you may have overlooked the part in the build where I outlined why the monk gets a spiked chain and how it synergises with combat reflexes (from level 2). Even flat-footed he might be able to stop enemies charging, with increasing variety of methods, the higher he rises in level.

And you are telling me that in the games you play a hide and move silently skill, alongside spot and listen is never used? Strange. That the party never surprises the enemy? Even stranger. (since a lot of wizard uberness believers assume that in turn the enemy never surprises the party and their casters get enough time to buff or get to safety before the enemy hits). That you play without whole classes (rogue, ranger, monk) built around a stealth concept? Strangest notion of all.
And once again: grappling is not used vs many opponents at once.
But...suppose we have a 4-member party. How likely is it that 4 opponent orcs will gang up on the monk grappling one of them, and ignoring the party's wizard, rogue and cleric?

I'm not going to get into a massive wall-of-text exchange here.The core rules assume all the characters have access to magic items. They do NOT assume everyone will take UMD as a cross-class skill and frantically max it out, nor do they support it, because you're constantly using up gold other people are investing in permanent items.

No, the core rules indeed to not assume that EVERYONE will take UMD as cross-class skill. But they provided some spells that are clearly meant to buff the combat, non-caster classes (enlarge, bull's strength, AMF, etc.). If I provide a build that opens another way (made possible in the rules) to get those buffs up, what is the problem with that?

- Giacomo

[Freelance Henchman]

Was just wondering, after the hypotethical prison adventure, what happens if the Monk doesn't get his expensive wands back? Losing (some or all) expensive items would suck for everyone, but the Monk's budget seems exceedingly tight and concentrated in some VERY expensive baubles like the Div. Power wand. How will the adventures look like afterwards in case that happens and the merry band is short on cash?

[Stupendous_Man]

That would assume that the monk is alone vs several opponents. Would he use grappling tactics then?
well, a lot of your build is designed aroudn grappling.

wha do you do when you can't grapple, like facing 3 enemies?

[Sir Giacomo]

You constant insults and insinuations are not appreciated.

You mean, your post that triggered mine was meant to applaud my build in a fair manner? Come on! :smallwink:
But I'll resist the temptation to continue a meaningless exchange of words related on your original unoriginal attempt at ridicule :smallsmile:

- Giaocmo

[Sir Giacomo]

Was just wondering, after the hypotethical prison adventure, what happens if the Monk doesn't get his expensive wands back? Losing (some or all) expensive items would suck for everyone, but the Monk's budget seems exceedingly tight and concentrated in some VERY expensive baubles like the Div. Power wand. How will the adventures look like afterwards in case that happens and the merry band is short on cash?

Quite the contrary, the joker monk's possessions are widely spread; with few items at each respective level really expensive. Some clasess like the wizard (spellbook(s)), fighters (their main enchanted weapon) etc are more dependent on one single item getting lost, I daresay.
But losing items is bad for all characters, not just the monk.

- Giacomo

[Freelance Henchman]

Just a word of warning, these Monk threads often devolve into very angry namecalling (and bannings), and this one is on the verge or nearly over it. No matter how unreasonable someone seems, try not to get banned over it by resorting to obvious insults.

[AmberVael]

Sorcerer: I cast X and own.
Yes, when you have relearned and rested, or happen to have some spare spells remaining. And when you cast without material components (remarkably many good spells need those).
And a surprisingly good many spells don't require material components. In fact, most of my Sorcerers tend not to have many spells that utilize material components (or at least not ones that wouldn't be readily available- if I'm building a Frostburn sorcerer who requires snow for spells, they'll have plenty of spells and ways to MAKE snow, equipment or not, but that sort of thing is just common sense.)
Yes, a sorcerer has to rest to get his spells per day, but the monk will have the same problem- just in other ways. The monk will be taking damage and need to rest, which isn't too much different. A monk can't fight without HP (or they can, they're just risking death) and a sorcerer can't fight without spells (or they can, they're just risking death).


Fighter: I pick up a club or a sword of a fallen enemy.
Yep, a club. There goes that weapon specialisation bonus. And you still do less damage than the monk, with less attacks. And where is your armour? Oh, you do not have any AC bonus without equipment? Too bad. Ohhh, look - it's creatures with damage reduction/magic. Ooopsy.
Most of the common fighter builds don't utilize weapon focus/specialization, simply because they're not big enough bonuses to care about.
Fighters will typically use Power Attack, which can be used with any weapon, and which provides most of their damage. Their AC will go down, yes, but a fighter will have hit points and a dexterity score- they'll be able to take a beating still. As for DR/Magic creatures... they'll suffer a little bit, but Fighters can still do surprising damage to creatures that have damage reduction against them.


Cleric: I'm whittling my Holy symbol.
Material components? Armour? Weapons? And where will you find a holy symbol of your god in the first place in your enemy's camp?
Er, the point is that he won't find a Holy Symbol- hence why he is making one out of wood. Whittling, yes.
A cleric still has their spells, and as long as they can get access to them, they'll be doing very well. Loss of armor can be made up by buffs such as Magic Vestment, Shield of Faith, Magic Circle/Protection against X, etc.
Loss of weapons can be made up by picking up a stick. Use one spell to make it magical. Oh look, you're in business again.


Druid: I transform into a bear and then buff. Later I'll find some mistle toe and be just as good. CHEESE ALARM FOR USING MORPH STUFF!:smallsmile:
Waaaaaait wait wait wait.
Druid's most notable class ability revolves around morphing. If you still declare Core as being balanced, why are you balking and saying "YOU CAN'T USE THAT!" It's balanced, right?
Look, you can't declare something being used as it is intended to be used as cheese and still call Core balanced. If Druid's morphing ability is cheese, then they are better than the other classes and core is unbalanced. Same with polymorph. Come on, Giacomo, be consistent here.
I'll not say anything about you calling Gate loops and Candles of Invocation cheesy, because those are famous for being abused, not used correctly.
But when you label morphing in general as cheese, you can't call core balanced anymore.
So let the Druid turn into a bear and eat people, or agree that core isn't balanced and that a Druid would kick a monk's ass.


Barbarian: WAAHG!
1d3 + STR dmg, non-lethal. WHAAG. indeed.
Getting a club or a quarterstaff is easy enough for our barbarian. Hell, I bet a barbarian could get pretty mean just picking up rocks and whacking people on the head with them.
I've personally played characters that picked up doors and beat people to death with them- there are waaaay too many things in the environment ready to be used as weapons for our supernaturally strong barbarian to think he'll actually rely on punching people in the face.
Also, if he really needs to? He'll grapple people. His high strength and attack bonus haven't suffered, so he'd still be just as good at grappling.


Wizard: I cast Teleport or use my Teleport SLA and pick up one of my 500 Secret Page copies of my spellbook.
See ya! Meanwhile, your comrades die...
--Round 1--
Standard action: Teleport.
Move Action: Pick up book.
--Round 2--
Standard Action: Teleport
Move action: GET TO THE CHOPPA! Get into a good combat position.
Swift Action: Quickened spell to help out.
--Round 3--
Kick ass/Be awesome/Godmode/Chuck Norris
As normal.

Doesn't really require that much time. I don't think 12 seconds is long enough for all of your companions to get killed, and if it was, why were you traveling with them?


Upon freeing themselves, half the PHB classes become better then the Monk within a minute, if not immediately.

Nope, they don't. I would never say they're useless. But they do not get better than the monk.
While more mundane classes will suffer a bit (Fighter and Barbarian), the magic based classes are still going to rock, just because having spells every day doesn't depend on having items, and those spells can practically replicate having items. (Missing armor bonus? Shield. Need to fly? Cast Overland Flight. Dragon shooting fire at you? Protection from Energy.) The only reason they don't cast those all the time is that magic items usually last longer, free up more spell slots, and can grant slightly higher bonuses that don't stack.
They're going to suffer in almost exactly the same way as the monk without magic items, but as their class features don't require them to be in melee combat, they can use them much more effectively without fear of dying. A monk without magic items will have lost any number of the following:
Armor Class.
HP.
Attack Bonus.
Strength for Damage dealing.
Something to boost Stunning Fist DCs.

A magic user will have suffered:
Armor Class.
HP.
Something to boost save DCs of spells.
Something to give more spells per day.
Material components (if any)
Maybe an orange Ioun Stone or metamagic rods?

Now while I've listed more things for the magic user, note this:
All of a mage's non save spells work JUST as well as they did before. This includes buffs, which is a large part of what makes a mage effective.
All of the things a monk (and in that case, a fighter or barbarian or any other melee character) have lost are things that make it iffy for them to go back into combat. Guess who can solve that? The magic user, with their unchanged buffs. They're still quite effective after having lost all of their gear.
Oh, and dependence on a spellbook is why I really prefer sorcerers over Wizards. That and I hate prepared casting, so lets assume for everything I'm saying I'm talking Sorcerer, unlike other people, because that's the mindset I prefer.



Yes you could say they are level 1 or 5 or whatever to remove some of these options, but nothing changes the fact that a Fighter or Barbarian with a Non-Magic Club is actually a much better fighter than an itemless Monk.

Ah, another one of those "facts".
Please. Look at the damage a club does, and the damage a monk does (including the flurry ability). It even gets worse, the higher the level. In fact, I'd say you only have point at low levels in this - and even then fighter or barbarian would need to find a club in the first place (and what about those other combat needs, like AC?).

- Giacomo
Level 20 fighter using club: 1d6 damage.
Level 20 monk using fist: 2d10 damage.

Level 20 fighter using club and power attack and strength in two hands (18): 1d6+16 (damage range: 17-22. Average roll: 19.5)
Level 20 monk using fist strength (18): 2d10+4 (Damage range: 6-24. Average roll: 15)

That's not including any other abilities the fighter may have. Just power attack at -5 to put his attack bonus on par with the monk's. The monk will get more attacks, yes- two at this point, at no penalty, but I'm pretty sure the fighter will have other tricks up his sleeve too, considering the blatant and disgusting number of feats he has.

[Griffin131]

Hmmm, sounds reasonable to me. What about a mind blank effect to thwart foresight?
Mind Blank protects your mind. Foresight isnt targeting you, its letting me know that im in danger and have what action to take to stay safe.

[Stupendous_Man]

Waaaaaait wait wait wait.
Druid's most notable class ability revolves around morphing. If you still declare Core as being balanced, why are you balking and saying "YOU CAN'T USE THAT!" It's balanced, right?
Look, you can't declare something being used as it is intended to be used as cheese and still call Core balanced. If Druid's morphing ability is cheese, then they are better than the other classes and core is unbalanced. Same with polymorph. Come on, Giacomo, be consistent here.
I'll not say anything about you calling Gate loops and Candles of Invocation cheesy, because those are famous for being abused, not used correctly.
But when you label morphing in general as cheese, you can't call core balanced anymore.
So let the Druid turn into a bear and eat people, or agree that core isn't balanced and that a Druid would kick a monk's ass.

o.o;
maybe he was being ironic?

[Sir Giacomo]

Mind Blank protects your mind. Foresight isnt targeting you, its letting me know that im in danger and have what action to take to stay safe.

Yes, but you get information about your opponent who is targeting you. And that should be blocked by mind blank. But honestly, I'd also be hesitant to rule it that way.

As an afterthought on that celerity/foresight combo: foresight is a core spell designed when immediate actions were not yet part of the game. So the combination of these two is...awkward, I dare say, even by non-core standards. In particular since one interpretation would result in a character being nigh untouchable by anything.
My suggestion therefore is to only go by the explicitly mentioned game mechanics in the spell. Meaning you'll never have a surprise round vs someone with foresight up. But likewise will said someone also not have a surprise round vs you.
So the combat starts by rolling initiative. Normally then the one protected by foresight could act with an immediate action BECAUSE he is not considered flat-footed.
However, the moment the round starts, regardless of initiative, the AMF strikes. So no celerity possible. That would be my interpretation - but as I admitted above already, it's dodgy.
Take the broken or the non-broken interpreation of the celerity/foresight combo. Your choice.:smallcool:

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

Waaaaaait wait wait wait.
Druid's most notable class ability revolves around morphing. If you still declare Core as being balanced, why are you balking and saying "YOU CAN'T USE THAT!" It's balanced, right?
Look, you can't declare something being used as it is intended to be used as cheese and still call Core balanced. If Druid's morphing ability is cheese, then they are better than the other classes and core is unbalanced. Same with polymorph. Come on, Giacomo, be consistent here.
I'll not say anything about you calling Gate loops and Candles of Invocation cheesy, because those are famous for being abused, not used correctly.
But when you label morphing in general as cheese, you can't call core balanced anymore.
So let the Druid turn into a bear and eat people, or agree that core isn't balanced and that a Druid would kick a monk's ass.

o.o;
maybe he was being ironic?

Well in that case, of course!:smallsmile:
Due to my experience, though, I hardly ever even hint that a monk build of mine uses morph stuff - and once a druid can use it, so should the monk (theoretically).

- Giacomo

[Covered In Bees]

lrn2usequotes.


That would assume that the monk is alone vs several opponents. Would he use grappling tactics then? Would a wizard cast a fireball into the midst of melee combat of his comrades? No.
Furthermore, going alone vs several opponents means for a level 6 monk that he hardly ever encounters two CR 6 creatures (check the DMG guide on providing appropriate encounters), but rather lower-level ones. And against those, he could even use grappling tactics since his damage output is high enough to down one quickly, and then fight/grapple the other.
No, there's a party fighting a group of opponents at level 2. The fighter engages one, trips it, and hits it for 2d4+8.The wizard uses Color Spray to take two more out. The rogue throws a dagger and misses. The cleric either casts bless, or goes over to the creature the fighter tripped, flanks, and swings his mace. What does your monk do?

If you ever play Dungeons & Dragons, you'll see that expecting every encounter to have an Encounter Level equal to your levelis foolish. Characters are expected to regularly deal with enemies a point or two of CR above them (and sometimes even 3 or 4). A CR 6 enemy is supposed to take 20% of the party's resources--or rather, be overcome fairly easily.


That has already been discussed at length. As per DMG p. 199 you can get partially charged wands for creating higher level pcs.
I'd argue that it is possible even in ongoing campaigns since characters can find and sell partially charged wands, they should also be able to buy them, but that is not completely RAW.
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/mgorinev/RAGE.jpg
THIS IS YOUR STRATEGY? THIS is what your entire BUILD depends on?!

HOW DID THIS THREAD LAST THIS LONG?

Okay, let's do this quickly: your entire build is based around PARTIALLY CHARGED WANDS (I can't believe it. So damn ridiculous), even though buying them is, even YOU admit, "not completely RAW"?
First of all, let's go over the point of that rule very quickly. That rule exists because when you create a character at level X, he has a history. He's been adventuring for a while. As a result, he might use a wand, and therefore he might have a wand he's already used part of the way up.
This means that he should have been able to buy the wand at some point in the past. You don't get to buy a 1-charge level 4 wand and have a level 4 spell at level 2. "Black tentacles! We win."

That aside, let's say some DM follows nothing but the exact letter of the RAW, and lets you have whatever partially charged wands when you make the character.
The rules sure as hell DON'T say you can buy 1-charge, 2-charge, etc wands of whatever you want whenever you want.
The only real way to get partially charged wands is to kill people and take their wands. And you're still limited to the spell/number of charges that they were carrying.
Trying to argue that just because you find a 49-charge wand of Doom (the enemy used a charge in the encounter)and get to sell it, you should be able to buy a wand of any spell you like is so mindbogglingly stupid I'm surprised you're trying it.
It's also not in the rules. If you're claiming RAW, then you only get partially charged wands at creation. This fits with the dozens of D&D games I've played in. If you ever play D&D, you'll discover the same thing.


So, what it boils down to is that your entire build DEPENDS, desperately, on partially charged wands.
Therefore, it only works if you are creating it at level X. It can't work as part of an actual game.

So much for this thread!


Please read the guide again. I outlined many ways to activate wands in combat, and also that many buffs can be activated outside of combat.
No, you didn't. You said "well, activate it before combat."
So how do you activate any wands in combat with a +5 modifier? Or even a +9?



That is not a matter of luck, it is just a matter of probability. With a second attack, you double your hitting chances.
I'll take the guy swinging at +7 for 2d6+6 (or at +5 for 2d6+10) over your +1/+1 flurry any day, especially since you won't always get to flurry, and he doesn't need any buffs to do his thing.


"Clinically unable to discuss" - that's a good one.:smallsmile:

Anyhow, you may have overlooked the part in the build where I outlined why the monk gets a spiked chain and how it synergises with combat reflexes (from level 2). Even flat-footed he might be able to stop enemies charging, with increasing variety of methods, the higher he rises in level.
He gets a swing with a weapon he's not proficient in. He doesn't get two--movement only provokes a single AoO per person. That's not going to help. Swinging a chain at +0 is a desperate attempt, not a reliable strategy.


And you are telling me that in the games you play a hide and move silently skill, alongside spot and listen is never used? Strange. That the party never surprises the enemy? Even stranger. (since a lot of wizard uberness believers assume that in turn the enemy never surprises the party and their casters get enough time to buff or get to safety before the enemy hits). That you play without whole classes (rogue, ranger, monk) built around a stealth concept? Strangest notion of all.
The party usually has a rogue. The rogue scouts. This does not guarantee surprise; far from it. Often, it only serves to prevent the party from *being* surprised.

Usually, nobody gets a surprise round. This is doubly true for groups who don't want to wait for the rogue to walk slowly far ahead of the group all the time, but even with a constantly active scout, enemies will spot the scout, enemies won't be somewhere the scout sees (opening a closed door makes them notice you) or will be seeing the party (outdoors--open areas).

Don't get me wrong: scouting is useful. But pretending that you will always have the advantage? Ridiculous. It happens sometimes--but usually, you're on neutral terms.
So why don't you tell me what you do when you AREN'T aware of enemies who haven't you. Other characters can handle this (wizards, clerics, etc have a one-round combat buff time). Stop pretending the situation won't come up. It will. Often. It's the default.

(And try playing a game of D&D sometime. You'll find out that, no, you can't sneak up on every opponent, then sneak away, buff, and charge back in. In fact, you can rarely do so.)



And once again: grappling is not used vs many opponents at once.
So what is?


But...suppose we have a 4-member party. How likely is it that 4 opponent orcs will gang up on the monk grappling one of them, and ignoring the party's wizard, rogue and cleric?
Not very likely.
How likely is it that one of the orcs chops the monk in half when the monk grapples the orc nearest him? VERY likely. Such a tempting target.


No, the core rules indeed to not assume that EVERYONE will take UMD as cross-class skill. But they provided some spells that are clearly meant to buff the combat, non-caster classes (enlarge, bull's strength, AMF, etc.). If I provide a build that opens another way (made possible in the rules) to get those buffs up, what is the problem with that?

- Giacomo
The problem is that you've already basically acknowledged that to make it work, you need to use partially charged wands.
If you were to play a game of Dungeons and Dragons, you'd discover that this. Never. Ever. Happens. Oh, you can get a wand with 25 charges when you make a character, sure. But if you honestly expect any DM to let you buy a wand with 5 charges of some spell just because you want it, you're fooling yourself.

(PROTIP: If they meant AMF to be a spell cast on non-casters, they'd have made it Touch range.)

[Covered In Bees]

Well in that case, of course!:smallsmile:
Due to my experience, though, I hardly ever even hint that a monk build of mine uses morph stuff - and once a druid can use it, so should the monk (theoretically).

- Giacomo

If you can't tell the difference between Wild Shape and Polymorph, you may need glasses.

[Stupendous_Man]

fwiw, my dm determines the charges on a partially used wand we get randomly if we kill someone for it, and if we buy it, the shop inventory of used items is determined randomly

[Covered In Bees]

fwiw, my dm determines the charges on a partially used wand we get randomly if we kill someone for it, and if we buy it, the shop inventory of used items is determined randomly

The odds of a DM randomly rolling a 5-charge Wand of Bull's Strength (for example): not good.

[AmberVael]

Well in that case, of course!:smallsmile:
Due to my experience, though, I hardly ever even hint that a monk build of mine uses morph stuff - and once a druid can use it, so should the monk (theoretically).

- Giacomo

Well of course, but a Monk doesn't have easy access to it.
Especially in such situations like... you know... not having any equipment, like the situation detailed above.

[Sir Giacomo]

.
Level 20 fighter using club: 1d6 damage.
Level 20 monk using fist: 2d10 damage.

Level 20 fighter using club and power attack and strength in two hands (18): 1d6+16 (damage range: 17-22. Average roll: 19.5)
Level 20 monk using fist strength (18): 2d10+4 (Damage range: 6-24. Average roll: 15)

That's not including any other abilities the fighter may have. Just power attack at -5 to put his attack bonus on par with the monk's. The monk will get more attacks, yes- two at this point, at no penalty, but I'm pretty sure the fighter will have other tricks up his sleeve too, considering the blatant and disgusting number of feats he has.

Just correcting ....:
The level 20 monk STR 18 unarmed damage is 4d8 (improved natural attack). So average 22 damage per hit (and he has +19/+19/+19/+14/+9 for attack). Plus, he can add stunning fist and/or quivering palm on top.
The level 20 fighter STR 18 club damage indeed is average 20 (so it is lower, even with power attack), and the no. of attacks is lower, with lower to hit at only +19/+14/+9/+4(!).
He'll have to have quite a few feats to enhance his club effectiveness in core to make up for being behind the monk so far.

Apart from this, please let us not continue this "who fares best in a capture situation" thing. I took it just as a half-serious excercise of Frost and myself.
- of course casters in situations without items still have their spells (without material components) which they have prepared/can still cast spontaneously. A cleric may have most problems of the casters due to his holy symbole, but a druid of course should also not have many issues in such a situation (once freed, that is).
- of course a monk then in turn is the best among the non-caster classes, since he is built around unarmed and unarmoured fighting.

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

The odds of a DM randomly rolling a 5-charge Wand of Bull's Strength (for example): not good.

The odds of a DM randomly rolling a ring of freedom of movement, or ring of invisbility: even worse :smallsmile:

- Giacomo

[Stupendous_Man]

The odds of a DM randomly rolling a ring of freedom of movement, or ring of invisbility: even worse :smallsmile:

- Giacomo

so that's why wizards take crafting feats.

[Kurald Galain]

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/mgorinev/RAGE.jpg
THIS IS YOUR STRATEGY? THIS is what your entire BUILD depends on?!

HOW DID THIS THREAD LAST THIS LONG?

Because of repetitiveness.

[Kurald Galain]

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/mgorinev/RAGE.jpg
THIS IS YOUR STRATEGY? THIS is what your entire BUILD depends on?!

HOW DID THIS THREAD LAST THIS LONG?

Because of repetitiveness.


To cive a few examples from the first page of responses, "this is an impractical and backwards attempt at optimisation", "Just try not to include any obvious untruths, like ... you can obviously buy any number of wands in any number of charges", "If only Giacomo's Monks got Black Belt's ability to ignore the rules of the game so long as he wasn't aware of them", "And thus, another round of Sir Giacomo's battle against Logic, Rules and Hard, Cold Facts begins. You can't deny him persistence."

So yeah, because of repetitiveness.

[Caros]

Hello again,

First, @Caros: time stop yields a minimum of 2 rounds. On the rest...hmm, I guess it is really tricky (personally I do not like this non-core celerity stuff for that reason; note also that the joker monk could get that with UMD). My ruling as a DM would be to only take what the foresight spell writes and not allow a casting of the immediate action in the surprise round, since there is not any. The actions of the combat start in round 1, when AMF is already active. An immediate action celerity can interrupt someone else winning initiative (and no-one will get a surprise round against you, due to foresight).
And I also wonder whether mind blank on the monk vs foresight would be of help until AMF is up?
It's a difficult call. But luckily the joker monk guide is based on core rules only.



Alright, at the moment at least, I'm just going to address the stuff directed at me really quickly since I don't have the time to write pages today. ^_^

First, I really need to sleep before posting. Can't believe the timestop error as that is a classic spell. *Smashes head on wall.*

Secondly, Foresight should not be affected by mindblank, at least by my reading. The deciding point on foresight comes in how it acts. Foresight is a sixth sense that affects you and points out things that are going to happen to you. In this case, it doesn't tell me that you are going to appear and brutalize me, it tells me, in vague terms "You are in danger, antimagic field, run away!"

Thirdly, my problem with the "Timestop, teleport etc." arguement, is that you're saying that combat starts in round one, when combat technically starts in round -1 when you start casting spells.

Hell, technically initiative is rolled the second the monk begins to cast, as thus:

Monk: I'm going to cast....
DM: Whoh. You're aware of the mage. The mage's foresight warns him of danger, meaning that he is now aware. True he can't see you or know where you are, but since he knows there is a fight/danger about to happen, roll for initiative.
Wizard: Eat it!

Alright, and last but not least. Guys, keep it civil. Seriously. I know tempers flare, but saying "I don't care about the forum rules"? Yeah... nuff of that.

[Kurald Galain]

Wizard: Eat it!

Those are the vocal components for Otto's Irresistible Dance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eat_It), are they not?

[Covered In Bees]

The odds of a DM randomly rolling a ring of freedom of movement, or ring of invisbility: even worse :smallsmile:

- Giacomo

...no, they're better.
Because those things are actually, you know, in the DMG.

What's more, as nice as a Ring of FoM is to have, there is no class that relies on it.

You, on the other hand, rely COMPLETELY on your partially charged wands. Because otherwise, you'd have to pick one level 2 wand at level 6 or so, one level 3 wand at level 10 or so, etc.

So what do you have to say for yourself? Your entire build is founded on something that is NOT in the rules and does NOT happen in games.



If you KNOW the rules don't say you get partially charged wands except at creation, and you KNOW that this doesn't happen in game, then WHY are you writing a guide so heavily based on these partially charged wands?

[Stupendous_Man]

Those are the vocal components for Otto's Irresistible Dance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eat_It), are they not?

should be more like

"we're no strangers to looooove
you know the rules, and so do i"

[Covered In Bees]

Those are the vocal components for Otto's Irresistible Dance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eat_It), are they not?

No, those would be Night fever, night fever...

[AmberVael]

Just correcting ....:
The level 20 monk STR 18 unarmed damage is 4d8 (improved natural attack). So average 22 damage per hit (and he has +19/+19/+19/+14/+9 for attack). Plus, he can add stunning fist and/or quivering palm on top.
The level 20 fighter STR 18 club damage indeed is average 20 (so it is lower, even with power attack), and the no. of attacks is lower, with lower to hit at only +19/+14/+9/+4(!).
He'll have to have quite a few feats to enhance his club effectiveness in core to make up for being behind the monk so far.

Apart from this, please let us not continue this "who fares best in a capture situation" thing.
I will stop, after pointing out a few things:
As many feats as a monk can take to increase his damage, the fighter can also add.
I think "11 fighter bonus feats and 7 regular feats- minus one for having power attack" giving us a total of 17 feats, will allow the fighter to catch up a bit, no?
A fighter can get Improved Grapple, Stunning Fist, Deflect Arrows, Combat expertise, cleave, great cleave, and many, many things to improve his options and/or damage. The Horizon Tripper build that someone posted a while back (completely core, I might add), would still be fairly effective without magic items, just because of the abilities they gain.
Other classes can be effective without equipment. With equipment, they can improve far beyond the capabilities of the monk.

[Signmaker]

Quite the contrary, the joker monk's possessions are widely spread; with few items at each respective level really expensive. Some clasess like the wizard (spellbook(s)), fighters (their main enchanted weapon) etc are more dependent on one single item getting lost, I daresay.
But losing items is bad for all characters, not just the monk.

- Giacomo

Wizard: No. Craft Feats, Extra Spellbooks, Spell Mastery (Hey, it's not too far from the truth). If you go out of core (I apologize), the wizard can pick up Alchemist Savant as a PrC and just by crafting Acid flasks, make hundreds of GP per week. Staying in core, they simply suck up the exp loss and craft magic items for gp. Or, you know, for themselves.

What I find interesting is that by level, Wizards actually have the most wealth. Take it from a previous bard player: Perform checks (which monks have, by the way) have NUTHIN on Alchemy or Magical Crafting in general. Sure, wizards lose EXP by crafting magic items, but that actually increases their by-level wealth. Momentarily? Sure, a wizard might be deprived of an item. But as a nother poster said, teleport-grabbackup-portback is an option that is fully within the wizard's power. Unless they happen to be under an AMF. Which is an entirely different story.

Fighter: You kind of have a point here. Losing your +3 Sword of SlashyAwesome half-way through a campaign does hurt. Of course, they won't be crippled. As usual, the majority of fighter damage comes from two-handed power attack, and not the base damage. However, yes, losing an item worth 18k tends to hurt. You know what else does? 18k worth of consumables, being spent over the course of a campaign. Badumptish.

Etc.: I don't know what you mean by etc classwise, so let's go list sommoar classes!

Barbarian: See above, add rage to the mix, minus the fighter feats.
Bard: Voice still here? Check. Spontaneous buffs still here? Check. Fifth Wheel effectiveness? Checkety Check Check. I only usually see Static Bonus items being tacked on a bard. Losing one or two static bonuses doesn't really hurt
Cleric: Wood symbol is whittleable. Armor can be substituted by buffs, Weapon not required because a cleric can cast. Again, static bonuses ahoy ahoy. Seeing as I've only played low-level clerics, I may easily be wrong here.
Druid: The one class that's hugging trees, being one with nature, needing items? Pshaw.

That's enough for now. The point I'm trying to make is this: while you can argue that a wizard or fighter is more dependant on single items (not really, but it's still arguable), your monk is dependant on a line of one-shot items. You can deny it, and oh you will, but the fact is, to 'wholly' contribute (that is, to be effective in what you do to git er dun), you WILL spend charges. Again, the exact cost is not easily determinable, murky waters and all, but as you've said, you can spend 1000 1st level charges without much impact on your permanant items. That's still 15k you don't have anymore.

[Sir Giacomo]

No, there's a party fighting a group of opponents at level 2. The fighter engages one, trips it, and hits it for 2d4+8.The wizard uses Color Spray to take two more out. The rogue throws a dagger and misses. The cleric either casts bless, or goes over to the creature the fighter tripped, flanks, and swings his mace. What does your monk do?

The monk likely went before one of his team members and grappled one of the opponents, possibly the one that the rogue missed, offering him a sneak attack thusly in round 1 (if the rogue delayed), or round 2. Where is your problem here? And, btw, if you assume the fighter level 2 has improved trip, he'll need an INT of 13, which may be hurting if he is a high STR-build and also needs good DEX, CON and WIS (for higher will save). Just saying.

If you ever play Dungeons & Dragons, you'll see that expecting every encounter to have an Encounter Level equal to your levelis foolish. Characters are expected to regularly deal with enemies a point or two of CR above them (and sometimes even 3 or 4). A CR 6 enemy is supposed to take 20% of the party's resources--or rather, be overcome fairly easily.

No, this is a big fallacy. Characters are expected to have encounters with CR sometimes above, their level, sometimes below, sometimes around their level. But they are not assumed to fight CR above their level most of the time. And EVEN IF they would, then such opponents would not usually outnumber the pc (making grappling once again a viable strategy).

HOW DID THIS THREAD LAST THIS LONG?

Because of posts like yours. Seriously. Why do you oppose it so much? Is it so hard to admit that you are wrong -or that there may be aspects useful to your game that you have so far overlooked?

Okay, let's do this quickly: your entire build is based around PARTIALLY CHARGED WANDS (I can't believe it. So damn ridiculous), even though buying them is, even YOU admit, "not completely RAW"?

Once again: only the part of ongoing campaigns is "not completely RAW". The part for creating higher level pcs is definitely RAW.
And you know what? The only thing that changes if only full charged wands were availabel for sale (the strange logic! Noone in your campaign world would ever sell a wand he has not used up completely) would be the following:
You would get some magical effets at later levels. Most of the key buffs (enlarge, obscuring mist, mage armour) are FIRST LEVEL WANDS. For 750 gp each. Yep, that's completely ridiculous to ever admit as part of a build for a DM, but a multiclass/prestigeclass shapeshifting non-core combo is definitely OK with all DM's? Come on.

First of all, let's go over the point of that rule very quickly. That rule exists because when you create a character at level X, he has a history. He's been adventuring for a while. As a result, he might use a wand, and therefore he might have a wand he's already used part of the way up.
This means that he should have been able to buy the wand at some point in the past. You don't get to buy a 1-charge level 4 wand and have a level 4 spell at level 2. "Black tentacles! We win."

And interestingly, you'll never find any spell in wands or scroll used by the joker monk that would be above the level of a same level caster to cast. Exactly because most DMs would not allow that (like the candle of invocation thing for a low-level group). Plus, normally, it is also simply too inefficient. You shine for one big moment, possibly wasting it against some minions, and the rest of the time you do not have any magic items. Cool.

That aside, let's say some DM follows nothing but the exact letter of the RAW, and lets you have whatever partially charged wands when you make the character.
The rules sure as hell DON'T say you can buy 1-charge, 2-charge, etc wands of whatever you want whenever you want.

No, they simply say, that you can buy partially charged wands and provide linear rule for pricing them. They say nothing about exceptions. Or you would assume that all pcs immediately drop dead in the game because nothing says that they get breathing as racial ability.

The only real way to get partially charged wands is to kill people and take their wands. And you're still limited to the spell/number of charges that they were carrying.
Trying to argue that just because you find a 49-charge wand of Doom (the enemy used a charge in the encounter)and get to sell it, you should be able to buy a wand of any spell you like is so mindbogglingly stupid I'm surprised you're trying it.

I see that you have no idea about how economics work. Simple hint: once you can sell it, you can also buy it.

It's also not in the rules. If you're claiming RAW, then you only get partially charged wands at creation. This fits with the dozens of D&D games I've played in. If you ever play D&D, you'll discover the same thing.

Now I'm just amazed---you have seen this partially charged wand thing in play often...so why do you make such a fuss about it?

So, what it boils down to is that your entire build DEPENDS, desperately, on partially charged wands.
Therefore, it only works if you are creating it at level X. It can't work as part of an actual game.

It does not depend on it.:smallsigh:

No, you didn't. You said "well, activate it before combat."
So how do you activate any wands in combat with a +5 modifier? Or even a +9?

I did. Hide. Obscuring Mist (horn of fog provides a safe one). Move (silently) after each activation attempt.

I'll take the guy swinging at +7 for 2d6+6 (or at +5 for 2d6+10) over your +1/+1 flurry any day, especially since you won't always get to flurry, and he doesn't need any buffs to do his thing.

Which is the reason why the monk will simply grapple your guy swinging at +7, because that becomes +3 all of a sudden, his TH weapon is useless in a grapple, as is his high AC/hvy armour, and his damage is reduced to only 1d3 plus X in a grapple. The monk has different combat tactics to that of a fighter or barbarian. Which is what the guide is about (in part).

He gets a swing with a weapon he's not proficient in. He doesn't get two--movement only provokes a single AoO per person. That's not going to help. Swinging a chain at +0 is a desperate attempt, not a reliable strategy.

Not reliable strategy? The monk will be able to disarm someone at level 6 with a +15 bonus, in a range of 20ft, even flat-footed. Twice as an AoO per round. That is not too shabby.

The party usually has a rogue. The rogue scouts. This does not guarantee surprise; far from it. Often, it only serves to prevent the party from *being* surprised.

When the party has a rogue, then the monk will take on more of the fighting - plus provide many sneak opportunities for his rogue buddy (move/tumble/flank, grapple, stun).

Usually, nobody gets a surprise round. This is doubly true for groups who don't want to wait for the rogue to walk slowly far ahead of the group all the time, but even with a constantly active scout, enemies will spot the scout, enemies won't be somewhere the scout sees (opening a closed door makes them notice you) or will be seeing the party (outdoors--open areas).

Too bad then, that you just declared the rogue useless as a scout class. Or you don't, but then the monk can also do it.

Don't get me wrong: scouting is useful. But pretending that you will always have the advantage? Ridiculous. It happens sometimes--but usually, you're on neutral terms.

So you think scouting will be done all the time even though it only "sometimes" provides an advantage? Wow. Just wow.

So why don't you tell me what you do when you AREN'T aware of enemies who haven't you. Other characters can handle this (wizards, clerics, etc have a one-round combat buff time). Stop pretending the situation won't come up. It will. Often. It's the default.

OK, if it's the default in your games that the group gets surprised, then the wizards and unarmoured casters will not survive for long. Plus, the monk, thanks to combat reflexes and the rogue thanks to uncanny dodge, will be the only ones with some chance to react. And the high AC/hp types will have a chance.

So what is?

Hmmm. A monk outnumbered will outrun the opponents and deal with them one at a time (think John Rambo...:smallsmile:). At higher levels, the eversmoking bottle/blindfight/listen/movesilently combo is ideal for that.

Not very likely.
How likely is it that one of the orcs chops the monk in half when the monk grapples the orc nearest him? VERY likely. Such a tempting target.

Well, the nature of combat is such that it is highly unpredictable. So said orc will move away from the cleric he fights to make use of this opportunity? He could get hit an AoO by other party members, possbily. And for the cost of one hit against him, the monk has just freed one of his party spellcasters to cast freely against said orc or other opponent. Yep, I'd call that contributing. Grappling basically can mean to act like a true tank: luring/forcing enemies to deal with you instead of the more fragile group members.

The problem is that you've already basically acknowledged that to make it work, you need to use partially charged wands.
If you were to play a game of Dungeons and Dragons, you'd discover that this. Never. Ever. Happens. Oh, you can get a wand with 25 charges when you make a character, sure. But if you honestly expect any DM to let you buy a wand with 5 charges of some spell just because you want it, you're fooling yourself.

If you'd ever play DD 3.5 by the rules as written, you'd be surprised that.this.happens.a.lot. Or should, since I argue that it provides so many benefits.

(PROTIP: If they meant AMF to be a spell cast on non-casters, they'd have made it Touch range.)

Oh, they do not put all in the rules as superobvious. Sometimes you have to search for the hidden gems...:smallsmile: But frankly, outside of the box AMF for a spellcaster seems stupid. But then the mind starts to work...how to get it to non-spellcasters to use vs spellcasters? Hmmm....:smallcool:

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

so that's why wizards take crafting feats.

Provided the DM provides them with the time and safe place to make those items. Not commonplace in all campaigns.

- Giacomo

[Nebo_]

{Scrubbed}

[Stupendous_Man]

Because of posts like yours. Seriously. Why do you oppose it so much? Is it so hard to admit that you are wrong -or that there may be aspects useful to your game that you have so far overlooked?

umm... giacomo, you're opening up a can of worms

[Stupendous_Man]

Provided the DM provides them with the time and safe place to make those items. Not commonplace in all campaigns.

- Giacomo

that's like saying to your monk "only if hte dm allows hte monk time to find a magic shop"


if the dm acitvely works against you, nothings going to get done whatever your class is

[Arakune]

"Monk is so awesome cause he can do stuff without any equipment!"

Sorcerer: I cast X and own.
Yes, when you have relearned and rested, or happen to have some spare spells remaining. And when you cast without material components (remarkably many good spells need those).


No, if there is any feat a sorcerer should pick (since metamagic for then is out), is eschew material components. It even mix well with the 'talent and inner power' aspect of sorcerer.



Fighter: I pick up a club or a sword of a fallen enemy.
Yep, a club. There goes that weapon specialisation bonus. And you still do less damage than the monk, with less attacks. And where is your armour? Oh, you do not have any AC bonus without equipment? Too bad. Ohhh, look - it's creatures with damage reduction/magic. Ooopsy.


If it's level 1-3, power attack will do. If it's level 4+, still power attack will do. He will be still hitting more than you (since he have higher BAB, higher STR), may have as much options as you or more (bonus feats) and be reasonably decent. When he get his equipment back, he will be back at being much more effective than the monk.



Cleric: I'm whittling my Holy symbol.
Material components? Armour? Weapons? And where will you find a holy symbol of your god in the first place in your enemy's camp?


Most of the clerics spells don't have material components, he is proficient with all simple weapons so he can improvise something (a spear?), and maybe he can improvise his holy symbol (DM fiat, but still). Also, depending of the domain the cleric chose, he may have one different tricks. In terms of effectiveness (depending of his build), only marginally criped.



Druid: I transform into a bear and then buff. Later I'll find some mistle toe and be just as good.CHEESE ALARM FOR USING MORPH STUFF!:smallsmile:


It's not cheese any more than the fact that he is a FU#$!&* ! DAMN!! DRUID!!! :smallannoyed:



Barbarian: WAAHG!
1d3 + STR dmg, non-lethal. WHAAG. indeed.


He may get a club (same as a fighter), then go for his 1d6 + STR + PA + RAGE or a greatclub for 1d(how much?) +STR*1,5 + PA + RAGE. Also, he is hitting more often than the monk with his higher BAB and STR (like the fighter).



Wizard: I cast Teleport or use my Teleport SLA and pick up one of my 500 Secret Page copies of my spellbook.
See ya! Meanwhile, your comrades die...


Then you have no problem with the wizard having his Teleport SLA? Okay.

Teleport->Get reinforcements/backup items ->Teleport back.

If can't do anything because he is low level, if he have an familiar he can work out something, but anyone knows a wizard is a commoner with a better will save without his spell book at low levels or when he depleted most of his spells.



Upon freeing themselves, half the PHB classes become better then the Monk within a minute, if not immediately.
Nope, they don't. I would never say they're useless. But they do not get better than the monk.


Debatable. (Just because you are still debating, and non core you can work out something in a build, but most of these only have 4-6 level of monk)



Yes you could say they are level 1 or 5 or whatever to remove some of these options, but nothing changes the fact that a Fighter or Barbarian with a Non-Magic Club is actually a much better fighter than an itemless Monk.
Ah, another one of those "facts".
Please. Look at the damage a club does, and the damage a monk does (including the flurry ability). It even gets worse, the higher the level. In fact, I'd say you only have point at low levels in this - and even then fighter or barbarian would need to find a club in the first place (and what about those other combat needs, like AC?).
- Giacomo

16th level, without any item.

Fighter: BAB 16, Str 18-20, found a "club" (anything with the size of a baseball bat), use it two handed.

Barbarian: BAB 16, Str 20-22, found a "club" (anything with the size of a baseball bat), use it two handed.

Monk: BAB 12, Str 16-18, bare hands.

Now, going for the MIN possible for each class, against AC 30:

Fighter, hit: 16+4 = 20. Need 10+ to hit (55%);
Fighter, damage: 1d6 + 4*1.5 = 10,5;
Barbarian, hit: 16+5 = 21. Need 9+ to hit (60%);
Barbarian, damage: 1d6 + 4*1.5 = 10,5;
Monk, hit: 12+3 = 15. Need 15+ to hit (30-35%)
Monk, damage: 2d8 + 3 = 19,5

The monk hit much less, but does more damage, so it's even out. Full attack? How many chances you have to full attack?


Now, going for the MAX possible for each class, against AC 30:

Fighter, hit: 16+5 = 20. Need 9+ to hit (60%);
Fighter, damage: 1d6 + 5*1.5 = 11;
Barbarian, hit: 16+6 = 22. Need 8+ to hit (65%);
Barbarian, damage: 1d6 + 5*1.5 = 11;
Monk, hit: 12+4 = 16. Need 14+ to hit (35-40%)
Monk, damage: 2d8 + 4 = 20,5

4,5 + 5*15

Your monk is still hitting less and the damage gain is only one point of damage.

What do we learn? That a fighter and a barbarian without any gear deal as much damage as a monk without any gear.

Give the fighter and the barbarian a spear (easiest THD weapon to make) and they can use PA for -1/+2 and hit as much as your monk and deal as much damage as your monk (only 0,5-1 point of difference).

[Worira]

(Bruce Lee, after all, also had great reach and STR and grappling advantage, even though he was not all of a sudden 3 metres tall).


Uh, no.needsmoarwords

[AmberVael]

[The rules] say nothing about exceptions. Or you would assume that all pcs immediately drop dead in the game because nothing says that they get breathing as racial ability.

I just can't help but laugh when picturing this.

DM: None of you can breathe, you all die, roll up new characters.
Player 1: But... but...
Player 2: *sighs and starts rolling up another character*

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I just can't help but laugh when picturing this.

DM: None of you can breathe, you all die, roll up new characters.
Player 1: But... but...
Player 2: *sighs and starts rolling up another character*

Now, if player two actually starts rolling a new character after that they might deserve what they got. :smalltongue:


But it is actually specified that breathing is a trait precisely because, as is pointed out by Signmakerens below, some types do not need to breathe.


Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep

The point is of course moot, since the DM in question obviously lacks some maturity and will end up ruining the game in any case.

[Signmaker]

I just can't help but laugh when picturing this.

DM: None of you can breathe, you all die, roll up new characters.
Player 1: But... but...
Player 2: *sighs and starts rolling up another character*

Player3: HAH! My race is such that I don't NEED to breathe!

[Morty]

Because of posts like yours. Seriously. Why do you oppose it so much? Is it so hard to admit that you are wrong -or that there may be aspects useful to your game that you have so far overlooked?

Great advice. Why don't you follow it yourself? So far, you're the one who rejects any possibility of being wrong about any aspect of the game. Arrogant remarks are an added bonus.

[Stupendous_Man]

Player3: HAH! My race is such that I don't NEED to breathe!
hey! it doesn't say humans *need* to breath either!

[Worira]

Also, PCs do get breathing as a racial ability, unless they're constructs, elementals, or undead. Every other type has breathing as a racial trait. If you're going to make an example of "rules absurdity", at least pick something that the rules don't actually cover.

[Covered In Bees]

Also, PCs do get breathing as a racial ability, unless they're constructs, elementals, or undead. Every other type has breathing as a racial trait. If you're going to make an example of "rules absurdity", at least pick something that the rules don't actually cover.

It says they DO breathe. It doesn't say they NEED to.

[Worira]

Yeah, so? Giacomo's point was that the rules don't say PCs can breathe. My point is that yes they do.

[Sir Giacomo]

OK, I'll try it differently and attempt compromises

To sum up the problems you have with the joker build and how you could still use it if you do not like those certain aspects about it:

1) use of charge items (partial or not)
Yes, if you do not like this, this build is not for you. Or try a monk able to use buffs and magic items that are not charged (some examples are there). For instance, for the joker monk, the key buffs are available also without charged items:
- Enlarge (permanency it for 3,000+ by an npc/pc spellcaster).
- Mage armour (pearl of power and rod of lesser extend from your fellow pc caster)
- Obscuring mist (horn of fog, later eversmoking bottle)
- divine power (ring of spell storing)
- fly (boots of flying)
etc.

2) use of any bought items/reliance on items/reliance on wbl
Yes, if you do not like that in your campaigns, you cannot make big use of the joker monk principle to synergise items and magic with what a monk can already do well.
- Still, then freedom of movement may not be up that often, and thus you can more often use your grappling tactics.
- get buffs from your fellow pc party members for protecting them (it is a group game). Fly, bull's strength, enlarge, mage armour. You name it (but no longer the personal range only buffs like AMF and divine power).
- make full use of your skills and class abilities. The guide provides many hints how to do that.
- point out to the DM that in such a campaign, spellcasters are at a great advantage and what he intends to do to balance it.

3) use of only core rules
Just use the links to non-core stuff provided in the guide; in part also to some builds inside this threads, and those posted in the recent pages.

4) use of grappling as tactics
If you do not like grappling, or you think the rules make grappling for monks suck, then:
- Try out ways to get a good quarterstaff offense (power attack TH bonus works with it); or take stunning fist at first level; multiclass with rogue or other classes.
- try a superhigh defense built, made entirely for scouting and surviving
- try hit-and-run builds (flyby attack, even revive the spring attack route).
- EDIT: also flurrying sais of distance/returning as a halfling monk mounted on a riding dog (hilarious, but why not?:smallsmile:) could be an option. A monk with two-weapon fighting, rapid shot and flurry and some means of divine power (or multiclassing after the second flurry attack at lvl 11) could by level 16 get off around 11 attacks per round and still move. Not too bad. But that was also part of the guide from the start- the flurrying thrown monk weapoins thing, not the hafling on a dog thing... END EDIT

Hope these ideas can provide some calm to the discussion.

- Giacomo

[Stupendous_Man]

gia, saying wizards only can make items if hte dm lets them is like saying monks can buy items only if hte dm lets them


by the way, monks can't fly

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Please remain civil, even if you disagree with the existence of this thread or specific postings within it. If something violates our Forum Rules, please report it. Otherwise, please conduct yourselves according to those rules or, even easier, just don't open this thread. We don't allow posters to attack, insult, or belittle each other, or to tell others to shut up, not post, etc. You should go about your business and let others go about theirs. You're responsible for your own conduct at all times, regardless of what was posted before by someone else. If you disagree with the content of someone's post, please feel free to express that. But do not attack the person directly, whether by name calling, passive-aggressive comments, negative characterizations, sarcastic mocking, or any other manner. We don't allow it - no matter how it's communicated.

[Arakune]

*stuff*
- Giacomo

Now we are getting somewhere. I guess the problem here is the tittle: Beating Batman.

You can annoy him and even make him expend a large sum of resources in something he didn't though it could: a non-caster. Beating him? Not so much.

[Sir Giacomo]

Now we are getting somewhere. I guess the problem here is the tittle: Beating Batman.

You can annoy him and even make him expend a large sum of resources in something he didn't though it could: a non-caster. Beating him? Not so much.

Not in a campaign where spellcasters have unimpeded access to magic and the non-casters don't. And even then, they can get beaten until the 9th level spells hit the board, I'd say.

- Giacomo

[Stupendous_Man]

please don't ignor eme

[Signmaker]

please don't ignor eme

By getting a wand of Fly, yes monks can fly. Also, your point was made before, and Giacomo may eventually get to it. He IS a busy man, holding back the forts all on his lonesome.

[Stupendous_Man]

nonono, i meant

Flyby Attack [General]
Prerequisite

Fly speed.
Benefit

When flying, the creature can take a move action (including a dive) and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.
Normal

Without this feat, the creature takes a standard action either before or after its move.


you can't take the feat if you don't have a fly speed cause you don't meet the prequist

[Worira]

It's been addressed. You meet the prerequisites of the feat while fly is cast, and not while it isn't.

[Stupendous_Man]

huh... so i can take power attack if i have str 12 and then use it after my str goes up?


is the first part of my post ok, about the dm stuff?

[crazedloon]

Or you would assume that all pcs immediately drop dead in the game because nothing says that they get breathing as racial ability

Where does it say I need to breath again? So as far as I can tell by raw I still live without breathing as a racial ability.

[Signmaker]

Where does it say I need to breath again? So as far as I can tell by raw I still live without breathing as a racial ability.


Seeing as there are drowning rules, choking/coughing rules, etc., I would assume that breathing has something to do with it.

[Morty]

Not in a campaign where spellcasters have unimpeded access to magic and the non-casters don't. And even then, they can get beaten until the 9th level spells hit the board, I'd say.

- Giacomo

Oh, for the love off... spellcasters have much better access to magic by the virtue of being spellcasters. Which means they can do all the stuff your monk gets via magic items and they cast spells themselves.

[Sir Giacomo]

True! Humans are humaonids that are described as breathing in the SRD. Ha! Overlooked that one.:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

[Skjaldbakka]

huh... so i can take power attack if i have str 12 and then use it after my str goes up?

Not exactly. But if you have a means to increase your strength, you can. Examples of how you might do this:

Bull's Strength spell.
Rage Ability.
Belt of Giant Strength.

etc...


Similarly, by RAW, if you have the ability to gain a fly speed, you can take flyby attack.
Examples of how you might do this:

Wings of flying.
Wild Shape.
Fly spell.

In both cases, you lose the benefit of the feat if you lose the prereq. Also in both cases, if you have no means to at least temporarily gain the prereqs, you cannot take the feat.

Theoretically, you could even qualify for BAB requirements with Divine Power, although doing that would be silly.



Oh, for the love off... spellcasters have much better access to magic by the virtue of being spellcasters. Which means they can do all the stuff your monk gets via magic items and they cast spells themselves.

So they can get spells from magic items and also cast spells. Sir Giacomo's arguement is that certain spells are most effectively useed by a monk. Yes, that requires the monk take a cross-class skill, but the monk actually has lots of feat room, since its intrinsic feats are built into the class.

Spellcasters can cast spells. With UMD, everyone can cast spells. What spellcasters can't do is [insert list of monk class features here]. In a high wealth campaign, where there is a Ye Old Magicke Shoppe, the spellcasters are brought more to a state of balance, because every single one of their class features can be purchased.

You can buy a monk's belt and get wisdom to AC and improved unarmed strike. You can buy a ring of evasion. Which is what, 20% of the monk's class features, if that?

[Vexxation]

Seeing as there are drowning rules, choking/coughing rules, etc., I would assume that breathing has something to do with it.

Yeah, but drowning also sets you to 0 hp, regardless of previous state. So I'd be cautious in obeying those rules.

Also: someone commented on a level one Flurry.

It was comparing the monk's +1/+1 to a fighter.

Giacomo said, paraphrased, "double the attacks, double the chance to hit."

Now, I'm no rocket surgeon here, but I believe Flurry of Blows gives an extra attack in return for a -2 penalty on both. At level one, of course. That means:

Flurry: +1/+1 or (1/20) + (1/20) = 2/20 = 1/10 or a 10% chance to hit AC 20.
Non-Flurry: +3 or (3/20) = 3/20 = 15% chance to hit AC 20.

And Giacomo would support Flurrying in this case? Seems a poor choice. Not ragging on you, man, as much as I'd like to, just pointing out to anyone else who saw it as odd.

[Sir Giacomo]

Oh, for the love off... spellcasters have much better access to magic by the virtue of being spellcasters. Which means they can do all the stuff your monk gets via magic items and they cast spells themselves.

The basic insight is that the spellcasters do not get as much marginal gain out of magic items available as envisioned by the core rules, as the non-caster classes do.

To illustrate: the game assumes that everyone can eventually be protected from no-save enchantment spells (power words) with mind blank. Block the access to that, and power words all of a sudden become more powerful.

Similarly, invisbility becomes more powerful when see invisbiltiy is not available in item form for non-casters.

- Giacomo

[crazedloon]

Seeing as there are drowning rules, choking/coughing rules, etc., I would assume that breathing has something to do with it.

ah you would think as much but those are magical properties of the water :smallwink:

:smalltongue: The game assumes the player is of average intelligence to be playing the game so stupid things like breathing is a half hearted argument because it is assumed that you are breathing.

Now my personal opinion on the dnd "economy" is it is ridiculous because no one that is not a adventurer can afford the magic items. Heck if you ask me no one except an adventurer can live in the dnd world as everything and the kitchen sink is out to get you. But back to economy why would a merchant waste his money on buying a wand with only a few charges? It is to much of a nitch product to sell effectively so more often then not that is a net loss for the merchant as no one buys the item and it sits on his shelf till the day he dies (or realizes he is in a shop full of awsome items and becomes and adventurer). Personally (and I realize this is not raw or core) all shops are run by or have a lvl 5 artificer in them. This way they can take those nitch items like partially charged wands drain them of magic and make fully charged wands so that they sell better and are not the above mentioned net loss.

[Stupendous_Man]

taking a feat that you an only use after casting a spell from an item seems.... i dunno, i wouldn't do it.

[Skjaldbakka]

Taking Flyby Attack that way saves you having to take Dodge and Mobility to get to Spring Attack, and a Spring Attack monk is arguably the least viable way to build a monk, at least as part of an adventuring group. My work out solo.

[Morty]

So they can get spells from magic items and also cast spells. Sir Giacomo's arguement is that certain spells are most effectively useed by a monk. Yes, that requires the monk take a cross-class skill, but the monk actually has lots of feat room, since its intrinsic feats are built into the class.

Spellcasters can cast spells. With UMD, everyone can cast spells. What spellcasters can't do is [insert list of monk class features here]. In a high wealth campaign, where there is a Ye Old Magicke Shoppe, the spellcasters are brought more to a state of balance, because every single one of their class features can be purchased.

Which means casters can double their class features where non-casters get some of the casters'. Right, but the problem lies in casters' class features being much more powerful than noncasters'. Fighter can get winged boots so he stands a chance againts flying wizard. A wizard can buy those boots just as easliy and he saves himself 3rd level slot to put Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement or Ray of Exhaustion in.


You can buy a monk's belt and get wisdom to AC and improved unarmed strike. You can buy a ring of evasion. Which is what, 20% of the monk's class features, if that?

20% of all, maybe. All or almost all actually useful monk abilities? Yep.


The basic insight is that the spellcasters do not get as much marginal gain out of magic items available as envisioned by the core rules, as the non-caster classes do.

Of course, because they're more powerful in their own right and have less weaknesses they have to cover with magical toys.


To illustrate: the game assumes that everyone can eventually be protected from no-save enchantment spells (power words) with mind blank. Block the access to that, and power words all of a sudden become more powerful.

Similarly, invisbility becomes more powerful when see invisbiltiy is not available in item form for non-casters.


Right, so if we remove all magic items casters trample non-casters even more. Your point?

[Skjaldbakka]

20% of all, maybe. All or almost all actually useful monk abilities? Yep.

Actually, Spell Resistance and Greater Flurry are pretty significant class features. You can't buy good spell resistance, as SR items don't scale with level well.

If only you could get a full BAB and Greater Flurry at the same time.....

if only.

[Morty]

Actually, Spell Resistance and Greater Flurry are pretty significant class features. You can't buy good spell resistance, as SR items don't scale with level well.

If only you could get a full BAB and Greater Flurry at the same time.....

if only.

If only, yeah. Monks don't, unless you count blowing your WBL on wands used with cross-class skill and therefore failing at least half the time. Which means their flurry of attacks is in fact a flurry of misses. SR would be more significant if it was harder for casters to punch through it.

[Arbitrarity]

Flyby attack is better than spring attack. Not limited to melee, and it's a standard action, rather than an attack.

Feats based off of single use items, etc. as prerequisites are legal as of some rule in CWarrior.

Of course, is this core only? Welll... questionably. If I whip D&D out of the box, with PHB, MM, DMG, will I find that rule? Maybe not. Should I use that rule? Probably, if I recall my sources correctly.

Is the polymorph/wildshape, familiar/leadership complaint still going on?

Also:
A lot of your (Giamoco's) tactics seem to revolve around being solo, or in a party. I'd call this "Schroedinger's party". :smallwink:. Essentially, Giamoco assumes that his party is, pretty simply, doormats. If they are attacked, they will all retreat so he can buff (if he needs the time). They won't be hurt while he takes time to buff. Sneaking around for a while shouldn't result in the party being hurt much, and is certainly contributing. But you definitely have mage armor from party, GMW, maybe GMV, rings of spell storing charged by allies, neccessary buffs not in the arsenal of wands.

The problem is, I think many posters find this rather inconsistient (myself included). Many advocated tactics make it difficult for the party to contribute, while simultaneously, the party doesn't cripple the monk by mirroring such annoying tactics (wait, you were in those black tentacles? Oh well, you're only (level/4(rounded up)+4-str modifier) points away. Remember, at level 8, with 18 strength, that's a mere 2 points difference, assuming you have improved grapple (so you have 153/400 odds of escaping!). Oh wait, you wanted to buff? Sorry, we're in a hurry here. Incidentally, this probably means you'll have difficulty uncorking that bottle this time.
Level 7? Well, 3 point difference, not too bad... only 136/400 though.

This actually isn't as bad in this guide. Bottle is back, but buff dependance is reduced, thanks to spending cash on wands. Which are difficult to use in combat, questionably legal, (Level 6 is the only level with placed wands. Look at the charges on those.)
Worse, when you argue with the monk in a single player environment, you have magical foreknowledge of everything about your opponent. You have buffs from NPC casters, which you either justify with "LEADERSHIP" or money.

You also apply many buffs in your arguments, if not statistics. The problem is, much of the time, you "assume" you have time to use those buffs. The only time where this is guarenteed is if you avoid combat, buff, and attack. This is rarely viable in a party environment. The 5 round parody of a combat is fairly accurate in that this monk needs time to improve himself, quite often, in order to contribute to moderate to difficult fights. I had a character with an extensive buffing routine once. It did not go well most of the time (said character has been streamlined, appreciating a standard and 2 swift actions to buff himself and the party). When it did, he devastated (You take... about 100 damage. Mostly fire, and some arcane). Otherwise, he was left hanging on the sidelines, buffing the party as best he could. But he could not simply walk away from fights while the party attacked, and buff in a corner.

You seem to have worse than schroedinger's wizard, because you are shroedinger's walking wand/scroll emporium. Whether you need a scroll or not, it may appear in an argument. This is a double standard. Claiming you have "foresight" in getting those items is the same thing as a wizard claiming he "is perfectly reasonable in having those spells" if not less reasonable.

You also have a double standard in comparing polymorph/wildshape, and familiars/leadership. Polymorph is broken for a variety of reasons, the foremost being the variety of forms available. Remember the rogue hydra, dishing out a few dozen, if not more d6/round? How abour ravid? Fly speed and a ton of natural armor. Core? Yep.
Animals are much weaker, and with less powerful for their hit dice. Also, they're only one type of creature, rather than half a dozen or more. Polymorph is basically "wildshape +" with lowered duration. It's more powerful. Also, wild-shape is part of the druid class abilities, whereas polymorph is a spell. This makes wildshape seems more "integral" to characters, and the game in general, even if this isn't actually an argument. It's rather like how leadership is an explicitly optional feat, compared to a familiar, a class feature.
Oh yeah, that. Well, I think comparing a smart birdy with low AC, low HP, and about 6 abilities total to a full character in terms of "OMG BROKEN" is... willfully blind, at least. Obviously, a familiar is much weaker than a character and a horde of minions. It has nowhere near the power of a caster of any sort, and trying to compare the two by saying "They both give a companion" is... again, willfully blind, though I have some other words I'd like to use to describe it. If you think a familiar bumps up a wizard's CR by 1, tell me, because I rarely use them. Compare to leadership, which grants a cohort of up to level-2, which is like having 2 character of CR N and N-2, resulting in a EL N+1 encounter (except it doesn't, but if they were seperate, it would. Feats should not be so good as to make your CR raised by 1, on their own.. That cohort is at least half as powerful, if not much more, than the character. You can't optimize familiars much, comparatively.
Also, if you have a wizard cohort, and you're fighting a wizard, I and others question what's really winning the fight.

Don't bother responding to arguments if you're going to rehash the same arguments, please. I, and anyone who has read through this thread, has seen them many times before, and I don't want to be responsible for this degenerating into a Quotefest of epic proportions.

6 points: Party, polymorph, leadership, shroedinger's wand emporium, buffs, and information from nowhere. If you must quote, just abbreviate to "stuff about X" at least, please.

[Skjaldbakka]

If only, yeah. Monks don't, unless you count blowing your WBL on wands used with cross-class skill and therefore failing at least half the time.

My giacomonk build takes cosmopolitan. Succeeds almost all the time by level.... 7 or so. (10 ranks, +2 cosmopolitan, +4 or higher CHA, +2 after succeeding once).

Been awhile back since I posted it. My giacomonk is monk 15/sorc 5 with Ascetic Mage.

You are of course, drastically overestimating the fraction of WBL spent on a wand of divine power, which is the only self-buff we're using that a fighter or barbarian would not also want to get his grubby hands on. Of course, I save a chunk of change by casting my own enlarge person spell.

Also, in my experience, you can pretty reliably get one prep spell up at the start of an encounter.

Edit- You can likely afford a wand of divine power in th 7th-11th level range, depending on whether your DM lets you buy 25c. wands (which I allow in my games). You don't need to use divine power except against big, strong monsters, so assuming those are present in 50% of your encounters, that wand will last you for your next 7 levels or so (3 or 4 levels for a 25c wand).

Buy another one then, and it should last the rest of your career.

*assuming the standard 13.3 encounters/level

[Adumbration]

From SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#humanoidType

Traits

A humanoid possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep.

[Skjaldbakka]

Information from Nowhere

I believe he is relying on spellcraft and knowledge arcana, or possibly information gained from the party spellcaster through roleplay. My giacomonk is a spellcaster, and has ranks in those skills, at the expense of certain other skills Giacomo is relying on (namely, stealth and perception).

Thats my personal gripe with the monk (lack of 6+int skill points). Also the non-scaling nature of certain class features (like abundant step).

[Arbitrarity]

Information from Nowhere means things like "The target wizard is flying at these coordinates at exactly this time, so I will time stop right... now! (Oops, I foresaw fumbling the UMD check...) and teleport, then grab him". (Because that seems to be his attack method)
Or how about "Wizard has freedom of movement in a ring. It's on his left pinky. Sunder it" (ok, that's a joke :smallwink:)

[Emperor Tippy]

Just to interject a point, anyone can get a simple weapon at any time. Making a quarterstaff pop into existence is a free action and can be done with a thought.

[Talic]

1st: Mind Blank Does not protect against Foresight. Foresight falls outside the scope of mind blank's effect. Mind blank protects whoever it's on, from being detected by divination, sure.

Foresight doesn't detect. It doesn't warn. It gives the caster no direct knowledge of the individual. It tells the caster, essentially, "DANGER! DUCK!" OR "DANGER AHEAD".

It in no way directly crosses the effect of Mind blank by attempting to obtain information about the protected individual.


2nd: As has been gone over before, the DMG explicitly allows the purchase of partially charged items at character creation for characters above first level. This implies that these items are not available for purchase otherwise.

An argument is made about internal consistency, and that not all wands get the chance to be fully used. This is true. Barring for a moment the fact that many aspects of 3.x are not internally consistent (most dealing with wealth, economy, and treasure), if we argue that we must be internally consistent, then the player wouldn't decide what those items available were. The DM would. This would require an active decision to include this item, not a passive.

But what about the rule of assuming that any item under a certain gold piece value is available to a community of a specified size? After all, that's a rule. Ah but now we're clinging to common sense when it lets us shuck aside the implication above, and ignoring it here. I mean really, will a hamlet of 500 people have every single imaginable item valued at 1gp or less? Every single one? It's not internally consistent. Such a stance, that we allow by this rule, while ignoring solely on the basis of internal consistency above, smacks of contradiction.

Further, does that rule apply to unique items? Items made different through circumstance? I mean, would the King's private letters to his mistress be available in the general store, as it's nothing more than a bit of ink and some parchment, valued at scarcely over a couple silver? No, by circumstances of their use, those items became something that is not in the book. Such items are not readily available.

Similarly, the rules allow you to DERIVE a partially charged cost at character creation, to have an item tailored by circumstance, and use. The game assumes (IMO) YOUR use. I would think, for internal consistency, that it represents that you're not Joe Lv5, carbon copy, fresh off the press. Rather, it would assume you're a character that has survived and gained 4 levels, using items, finding lost, semi-used items, and the like, and those partially charged items represent that.

However, the rules to not allow you to take these one of a kind derivitives, and treat them as standard items in the DMG. An item is a complete entry. For example:

Boots of Speed

As a free action, the wearer can click her boot heels together, enabling her to act as though affected by a haste spell for up to 10 rounds each day. The duration of the haste effect need not be consecutive rounds.

Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Wondrous Item, haste; Price 12,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.
That is an Item.


Wand of Detect magicIs not. Charges, and COST, are a part of what an item is. If you change that, it's no longer the item listed in the DMG or PHB. If it isn't, than it is NO LONGER SUBJJECT to the rule of "any item under a certain value can be found."

Which is good, as it's an inconsistent rule anyway, lacking the common sense that was referred to for justifying that such items existed. And, when provided with two choices, one supported by common sense, and one opposed by it, why would one choose the one opposed? Where does this leave such items? Not included, unless the DM makes a specific ACTIVE decision to include them, on an item-by-item, case-by-case, shop-by-shop basis.

Which means it cannot be relied on.

Which means it is not a solid argument to base a build on.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Yeah, but drowning also sets you to 0 hp, regardless of previous state. So I'd be cautious in obeying those rules.

Also: someone commented on a level one Flurry.

It was comparing the monk's +1/+1 to a fighter.

Giacomo said, paraphrased, "double the attacks, double the chance to hit."

Now, I'm no rocket surgeon here, but I believe Flurry of Blows gives an extra attack in return for a -2 penalty on both. At level one, of course. That means:

Flurry: +1/+1 or (1/20) + (1/20) = 2/20 = 1/10 or a 10% chance to hit AC 20.
Non-Flurry: +3 or (3/20) = 3/20 = 15% chance to hit AC 20.

And Giacomo would support Flurrying in this case? Seems a poor choice. Not ragging on you, man, as much as I'd like to, just pointing out to anyone else who saw it as odd.

An unfair example, the math has been done and it is beneficial to flurry except when you need (IIRC)an 17 or 18 to hit and is equal if you need a 19 to hit.



Just correcting ....:
The level 20 monk STR 18 unarmed damage is 4d8 (improved natural attack).
But wait, isn't improved natural attack part of ToB? That's non-core!
grab the splat books and kick his ass!

[dman11235]

Setting the whole wand issue straight: you cannot create wands (or other charged items) with fewer than the maximum number of charges. If your DM wanted to, he could sell used wands with fewer charges. Not that this has much of an effect, since you still rely on MagicMart to do anything useful.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

But wait, isn't improved natural attack part of ToB? That's non-core!

INA is in the MM.

[Ralfarius]

Just to interject a point, anyone can get a simple weapon at any time. Making a quarterstaff pop into existence is a free action and can be done with a thought.
Then, if you line up enough peasants hands-across-Faerun style, you can get that mofo going pretty fast in 6 seconds.

[Emperor Tippy]

Then, if you line up enough peasants hands-across-Faerun style, you can get that mofo going pretty fast in 6 seconds.

Incorrect. Different frames of reference and how the rules are written mean that while the staff travels from point A to point B in 6 seconds it is never accelerated to said velocity and thus it has next to no kinetic energy at the end.

[Sir Giacomo]

(...)Don't bother responding to arguments if you're going to rehash the same arguments, please. I, and anyone who has read through this thread, has seen them many times before, and I don't want to be responsible for this degenerating into a Quotefest of epic proportions.

6 points: Party, polymorph, leadership, shroedinger's wand emporium, buffs, and information from nowhere. If you must quote, just abbreviate to "stuff about X" at least, please.

And I will! Highly innovative summary - avoids me commenting walls of text alongside walls of text.
But of course I'll use the occasion to repeat my arguments, since they are still valid. But I do it not just for you, but for new readers and posters in this thread who may like to have a summary of the major issues here, and how weak imo are the arguments against my joker monk approach (and the "monk is underpowered" fallacy in general).

OK....

1) Party
I believe it is vastly overstated that the joker monk asking for extra time to get his buff up and receiving an occasional buff treats said party as "doormats". With the items of the joker monk build, he is even quite party friendly (pearls of power, note that his UMD skill could make him an emergency wand of CLW healer, his wands can also go to the spellcasters so they activated it safely when they run out of spells or to avoid learning that spell etc.)
Similarly, I think that using stealth tactics in general is of key importance for the group. If, as quite a few of the posters around assume, the party normally never has a surprise round and simply rolls initiative (reminiscent of a "kick in door style of play"), then it will be in for a lot more hurt.
Rather, I guess the typical party result that after a few encounters, they retreat because the party caster cast already all his spells - THAT is what I'd call batman treating the party as "doormat". Since everyone has to adjust their playing style to fit the most fragile party member.
A monk scouting ahead and thus gaining extra buffing time and a surprise round for EVERYONE in the group? Not so much.

2) Polymorph.
Guys. You cannot be serious in maintaining that polymorph should be banned, and wildshape is OK. Whole threads evolved around the druidzilla theme in which a druid player can "dump" his STR, DEX and still be more awesome than a fighter of the same level in melee (actually, that is not the case, but still it showcases the perceived power of wildshape).
It does not matter a iota that wildshape is written next to the druid class description, and polymorph as magic buffable for all characters in the spells and items sections. It is the final result for balance in the game that counts.
To recap the differences:
- polymorph allows more forms (and thus in some cases bigger size/nat.AC/STR/DEX./fly speed). But this difference is marginal, and the big advantage the ability to turn into an aberration, magical beast or dragon COULD have is the magical/supernatural abilites and defenses (and a ravid, btw, is an outsider, so is not available for polymorph forms).
But polymorph DOES NOT GIVE THOSE ABILITIES. The big things are size, STR, DEX, AC and (possibly) flying. And it does not matter much if you are a STR 26 big nasty with +6 to nat. AC or a STR 28 nasty with +8 to nat. AC. It is the big buffing jump to those stratospheres in the first place that counts.
- meanwhile, wildshape lasts eventually 24/7. So it is a PERMANENT buff, as opposed to the min/levl buff of polymorph. Only the 8th level polymorph any object (so available form level 15) would make polymorph also permanent - but then you're stuck with that one form - and can be dispelled, which is not possible with wildshape.

3) Leadership.
The joker monk build does not have leadership. Period. So please do not maintain that it is so.
Then, in the recent pages of this thread I brought up leadership as an aspect in the following circumstances:
When everyone with familiar, animal companion and special mount is allowed this kind of npc alongside his character, I see no reason why one should ban leadership (allowed by the RAW) for those characters in the group who would also wish to have such a companion.
It is like this: some character classes have written into their class abilities they receive some kind of ability (like improved unarmed strike for the monk). These are FIXED abilities that the character will ultimately have.
Then the characters can choose some of their VARIABLE abilities (feats, spells, skills, in the course of their career more and more items). And all of a sudden also a fighter could become an unarmed fighter with improved unarmed strike.
So why then see leadership differently? Some classes get this companion fixed, some can choose it from their variable stuff. No difference.
Any DM who would allow this feature to only some players, and not to the others, is just unfair imo.
Now, of course those with companions could also choose leadership to get even more companions. However, for DMing practicabilty I would strongly advise that you do not end up with the four-member group bringing along hundreds of companions into the dungeon (although in some cases that may be interesting).
And since you have to at some point establish a limit, I'd say 1 npc per party member is enough.
To sum up: RAW it is possble everyone gets dozens of companions and hirelings, but it is not practical in most cases to allow that. And if you as a DM do not want to have ANY kind of npc in the group, the role of the familiars/mounts/animalcompanions should be severely limited to provide only the combat stuff involved (or alternative rules as per PHB II could be considered).

4) Schroedinger's wand emporium.
I have said it many times, and say it again here:
- I have provided the proof that you can get all the key buffs necessary with wands (plus, with other means like party buffs or npc buffs or permanent items). I kindly ask again to check the descriptions for the respective levels on what you could do with the budget and what buffs you could get.
- having said that, I left the wand budget flexible so that everyone could adjust it to his or her needs for a character in the respective campaign
- lvl 6 even provided a detailed example character for a dungeon crawl. The key enlarge, obscuring mist and mage armour are all there. And, btw, the item list is x5 cost because it was for a ONE-OFF ADVENTURE!!!:smallsigh: "Look at the charges" indeed.
- most of what you see as "Schroedinger" stuff ignores what the monk can already do without the buffs. True, a black tentacles cast at the unsuspecting, initiative-losing joker monk left with +14 grapple without enlarge effect (he could have it permancie'd btw for just 3,100 gp at that level) can mean it's tough for him to escape the +16 grapple of black tentacles (btw he can try 3 attempts to at least get a 5ft step). But you simply ignore his high initiative modifier and his high stealth skills. So who is doing Schroedinger stuff here? You throw absolutely utterly rarest of circumstance stuff at me like this situation (opponent has still black tentacles available - how many CR 8 opponents can do that in the first place?, will be able to target the monk, will not have another target, will have had the initiative, will not have been surprised by the monk).
But you know what? An unsuspecting, initiative-losing 8th level Batman vs CR 8 is not only grappled. He's simply dead. And not only vs the tentacle-wielding CR 8 kind. Against ANY CR 8 opponent. Does this mean that the wizard class is useless? No.

5) Buffs.
That the spell rules allow benefitting spells to affect others for a time tells me that buffing is OK.
Opening more avenues to not only leave the burden of combat buffing to the spellcasters is even better.
For instance, in the-imo-not-so-rare situation where a party can buff for a round and then enter combat, the joker monk is a great boon to the party: normally the non-casters would simply stand around, wasting an action. But this time, the monk may even opt to reamin stealthy and look for the enemy spellcaster, and uses his enlarge buff on the barbarian (who consumed all of his more costly potions long ago).
Again: where is the problem that you have with that?
Then, to recap
OUTSIDE OF COMBAT: the monk can repeat as often as he like, until he gets that 80 minute heroism wand effect up, and then can may last 2-3 enounters with it in the dungeon. Better yet, thanks to his stealth skills AND GREAT MOVE he can provide both himself and the party with a higher chance that they get extra actions before combat starts. Where is the problem here? Why do you think stealth hardly matters in this game when there are THREE core classes (rogue, ranger, monk) provided with this strategic option?
INSIDE OF COMBAT: the monk can create early on concealment with a horn o fog safely. Lateron, with an eversmoking bottle. The moment he does that, he can with two wands in hands (all his monk fighting is unimpeded by that) attempt activation (standard action, making a sound) and move silently (move action). This will usually confuse all opponents, even those who COULD pinpoint him with a good listen check despite the likely high penalties due to the high move of the monk. WHERE IS THE PROBLEM HERE?
And the best of all is that we are talking about LIKELY activation (as in : above 50%) for most of the joker monk's low-mid-level career.
Add to this that with party casters present, buffs could also happen in combat with the help of the monk's wands in the hands of party castesr able to safely activate it WITHOUT recoursing to their own spells learned for the day.
I cannot imagine any more party- (and pc caster-)friendly buffing tactics than a non-caster character with UMD and pearls of power, sorry.

6) Information from nowhere.
To keep it short in the end:
- stealth tactics & scouting
- maxed spot and listen
- high INT, higher WIS
- diplomacy
- knowledge arcane and spellcraft
- fellow pc knowledge
- divination spells in wands (legend lore anyone?)

Will this, at long last, convince the joker monk critics? I wonder...

- Giacomo

[Stupendous_Man]

But this time, the monk may even opt to reamin stealthy and look for the enemy spellcaster, and uses his enlarge buff on the barbarian (who consumed all of his more costly potions long ago).
maybe the barb uses umd too?

edit:

monk has

listen
spot
move silent
hide
umd
spellcraft?

[Fenix_of_Doom]

INA is in the MM.

You're right, I confused it with superior unarmed strike from ToB.
This was however because INA is useless for a monk without a natural attack.

[Stupendous_Man]

giacomo, you didn't say anything about what i said about the dm not giving a crafter enough time to craft items being like the dm not letting he monk buy his items

you say that making items only is ok if the dm allows you to, but buying lots of magic items also works only if the dm allows you to

[Talic]

The reason the wizard is considered an asset rather than a burden to a party is the IN combat contributions.

Fighter going after the fire giant? Ray of enfeeblement on that giant will lessen the odds of it hitting the fighter, as well as the damage the fighter takes. This frees up the healer to do a bit more elsewhere. End Result: Synergy.

Alternately? Hold Monster/Wall of force. That monster has a decent chance of being rendered into a nonthreat, allowing the fighter to deal with something else. Result? Synergy.

This is because a wizard, played right, played in the batman style, is not an unstoppable combat form of doom. But he fills in all the cracks, all the chinks, handles the stuff the others can't, and helps them do what they do BETTER. In this way, the wizard makes the entire party more effective when he has a spell complement.

The wizard is designed, in Logic Ninja's guide, to be something that directly makes every party member do what they do better. Rogues? Benefit much from their opponents having a Grease under them. Clerics? Benefit when they can devote more spells to non-healing, due to CC spells. Fighters? Benefit when enemies are made less lethal or less numerous. The wizard doesn't tell the party to take 5 while he wins. He lets the party do their job, and he does his.

This is the fundamental flaw in your reasoning. LogicNinja's guide is essentially, "The wizard as a team player". And, when a wizard is like that? He is never a hindrance to a party, and is not treating the party as a "doormat". Because he's not trying to steal the show. If he has to rest, it's so he can help the party do what they do better.


You show a grasp of the technicalities of polymorph, and not the nuances. You don't polymorph for supernatural abilities. There are numerous extraordinary attacks that non-animals have, whether it's rend (troll), massive number of attacks (hydra), or what have you. These are all abilities that animals don't get, which makes polymorph a much more flexible spell.


Schroedinger's Blah. I listed not 10 posts prior to yours WHY limited use wands are not feasible. You argue both sides of a coin to get it, both for and against internal consistency. As for other things? It's quite possible, and plausible for you to have issues with things such as permanent enlarge. One well placed dispel magic just cost you 3k gold. There are limitations to being large, such as squeezing limitations on space, lowered AC (-2, 1 for size, 1 for dex), and more. Keeping permanent enlarge is a BAD idea. Makes you easier to hit, limits where you can go, all for what? A bit more damage, and a bonus on grappling.

Horn of fog. 10x10 cubes are not effective concealment, ESPECIALLY when you're a 10x10 creature. Multiple rounds would have to be used to duplicate a single level 1 spell.

As for your barbarian idea? LOL. You're trying to make the monk into a diet-batman. Logicninja's guide has the wizard as the one who can drop an enlarge on the barbarian (or a ray of enfeeblement on his foe, etc). The wizard does this without a single item, and if he needs supplementary uses, can also get the wands, and use them, without a single skill point or feat invested, simply by virtue of being a wizard. Thus, you are spending your finite resources, finite skills, and finite feats to do what the wizard does for free... And you can't imagine a better way to do it?

[Fenix_of_Doom]

1) Party
I believe it is vastly overstated that the joker monk asking for extra time to get his buff up and receiving an occasional buff treats said party as "doormats". With the items of the joker monk build, he is even quite party friendly (pearls of power, note that his UMD skill could make him an emergency wand of CLW healer, his wands can also go to the spellcasters so they activated it safely when they run out of spells or to avoid learning that spell etc.)
Similarly, I think that using stealth tactics in general is of key importance for the group. If, as quite a few of the posters around assume, the party normally never has a surprise round and simply rolls initiative (reminiscent of a "kick in door style of play"), then it will be in for a lot more hurt.
Rather, I guess the typical party result that after a few encounters, they retreat because the party caster cast already all his spells - THAT is what I'd call batman treating the party as "doormat". Since everyone has to adjust their playing style to fit the most fragile party member.
A monk scouting ahead and thus gaining extra buffing time and a surprise round for EVERYONE in the group? Not so much.

A party indeed does retreat after a few encounters, usually 3-4 if they were of equal CR, because the wizard is low on spells, so is the cleric and the fighter is low on HP, sounds logical. Now I admit that there could be wizards with a tendency to nova, especially at lower levels but it is condescending to claim that everybody who does not agree with you plays this way.
About scouting: it can work, it can prevent ambushes and it can deliver you surprise/preparation rounds, the problem is that you can't assume this happens, you need to be prepared in the other cases were you can't get these advantages.



2) Polymorph.
Guys. You cannot be serious in maintaining that polymorph should be banned, and wildshape is OK. Whole threads evolved around the druidzilla theme in which a druid player can "dump" his STR, DEX and still be more awesome than a fighter of the same level in melee (actually, that is not the case, but still it showcases the perceived power of wildshape).
It does not matter a iota that wildshape is written next to the druid class description, and polymorph as magic buffable for all characters in the spells and items sections. It is the final result for balance in the game that counts.
To recap the differences:
- polymorph allows more forms (and thus in some cases bigger size/nat.AC/STR/DEX./fly speed). But this difference is marginal, and the big advantage the ability to turn into an aberration, magical beast or dragon COULD have is the magical/supernatural abilites and defenses (and a ravid, btw, is an outsider, so is not available for polymorph forms).
But polymorph DOES NOT GIVE THOSE ABILITIES. The big things are size, STR, DEX, AC and (possibly) flying. And it does not matter much if you are a STR 26 big nasty with +6 to nat. AC or a STR 28 nasty with +8 to nat. AC. It is the big buffing jump to those stratospheres in the first place that counts.
- meanwhile, wildshape lasts eventually 24/7. So it is a PERMANENT buff, as opposed to the min/levl buff of polymorph. Only the 8th level polymorph any object (so available form level 15) would make polymorph also permanent - but then you're stuck with that one form - and can be dispelled, which is not possible with wildshape.

Giacomo, stop making a fool out of yourself, animals are probably the weakest type to shift into and versatility is everything, the differences is not marginal.
also Ravid is availeble if you somehow gain the outsider sub-type by being an aasimar or thiefling.



3) Leadership.
The joker monk build does not have leadership. Period. So please do not maintain that it is so.
Then, in the recent pages of this thread I brought up leadership as an aspect in the following circumstances:
When everyone with familiar, animal companion and special mount is allowed this kind of npc alongside his character, I see no reason why one should ban leadership (allowed by the RAW) for those characters in the group who would also wish to have such a companion.
It is like this: some character classes have written into their class abilities they receive some kind of ability (like improved unarmed strike for the monk). These are FIXED abilities that the character will ultimately have.
Then the characters can choose some of their VARIABLE abilities (feats, spells, skills, in the course of their career more and more items). And all of a sudden also a fighter could become an unarmed fighter with improved unarmed strike.
So why then see leadership differently? Some classes get this companion fixed, some can choose it from their variable stuff. No difference.
Any DM who would allow this feature to only some players, and not to the others, is just unfair imo.
Now, of course those with companions could also choose leadership to get even more companions. However, for DMing practicabilty I would strongly advise that you do not end up with the four-member group bringing along hundreds of companions into the dungeon (although in some cases that may be interesting).
And since you have to at some point establish a limit, I'd say 1 npc per party member is enough.
To sum up: RAW it is possble everyone gets dozens of companions and hirelings, but it is not practical in most cases to allow that. And if you as a DM do not want to have ANY kind of npc in the group, the role of the familiars/mounts/animalcompanions should be severely limited to provide only the combat stuff involved (or alternative rules as per PHB II could be considered).

Leadership is in fact not available to everyone, it is a specifically only allowed if your DM agreed with it because you for example have too few PC's.
And although it is possible to use familiars to great effect, you'll never achieve the power an extra PC with a few levels less can give you. So they are once again not equal.

I don't feel like commenting on the rest of it.

P.S. wands do not cost 5x as much in a one shot, they have 1/5 of the charges.

[Sir Giacomo]

Talic...


The reason the wizard is considered an asset rather than a burden to a party is the IN combat contributions.

Fighter going after the fire giant? Ray of enfeeblement on that giant will lessen the odds of it hitting the fighter, as well as the damage the fighter takes. This frees up the healer to do a bit more elsewhere. End Result: Synergy.

Alternately? Hold Monster/Wall of force. That monster has a decent chance of being rendered into a nonthreat, allowing the fighter to deal with something else. Result? Synergy.

This is because a wizard, played right, played in the batman style, is not an unstoppable combat form of doom. But he fills in all the cracks, all the chinks, handles the stuff the others can't, and helps them do what they do BETTER. In this way, the wizard makes the entire party more effective when he has a spell complement.
The wizard is designed, in Logic Ninja's guide, to be something that directly makes every party member do what they do better. Rogues? Benefit much from their opponents having a Grease under them. Clerics? Benefit when they can devote more spells to non-healing, due to CC spells. Fighters? Benefit when enemies are made less lethal or less numerous. The wizard doesn't tell the party to take 5 while he wins. He lets the party do their job, and he does his.

And this is exaclty how different to a joker monk that
- will provide many more sneaking abilities to the rogue in the group
- will take out the opponent caster who buffed vs the party spellcaster attacks
- will grapple a troll trying to attack the fighter tackling your example giant
- will use UMD to provide secondary party healing buff up the cleric's healing power for the day?
How does a wizard "let the party do their job" when he does an area spell effect, and the monk is detrimental to the party when he uses an area effect?

This is the problem with your double standard arguing. You are pointing "Synergy" to a wizard casting ray of enfeeblement, whereas a monk using his classabilities is considered useless, not contributing, running down only his wbl whereas I showed many, many times, with rules and examples, that it is not so.

This is the fundamental flaw in your reasoning. LogicNinja's guide is essentially, "The wizard as a team player". And, when a wizard is like that? He is never a hindrance to a party, and is not treating the party as a "doormat". Because he's not trying to steal the show. If he has to rest, it's so he can help the party do what they do better.

WHAT? Quite a few people around use the logicninja guide to argue that wizards are uber, full of combinations there is little to do against, can take on above their level CR single-handedly, in WoTC they post annoying stuff like "guide to GOD", completely looking down on people even trying to play something non-wizardly. And you are telling me here that this will not lead to a wizard trying to steal the show?
A lot of this thread's existence and length stems from the problem that a lot of people exactly believe THAT. That the wizard class is way better than the monk class - you said so yourself. And now said wizard is more powerful, but not stealing the show? Really.
We are of the same opinioin when it comes to interpreting the logic ninja guide to wizards as something highly useful. But I would never conclude that this makes the monk class underpowered as you would.

You show a grasp of the technicalities of polymorph, and not the nuances. You don't polymorph for supernatural abilities. There are numerous extraordinary attacks that non-animals have, whether it's rend (troll), massive number of attacks (hydra), or what have you. These are all abilities that animals don't get, which makes polymorph a much more flexible spell.

Er...pounce? Rake? Poison? All available also for animal forms. And the hydra is a very special case, with massive number of attacks obtained at the expense of a low move (so how is it ever going to land its full attack? Hydras are often guardian monsters that are staying in one place, attacking everyone coming near - not a great pc adventurer option). A RAW case could even be made by a strict DM that since the ability is not listed as part of the extraordinary attack and racial abilities, the morphed creature will not get it. No, you used exactly the right word: nuances. The differences between the resulting powers those abilities bestow are only nuances. And wildshape is even around much longer, undispellable.

Schroedinger's Blah. I listed not 10 posts prior to yours WHY limited use wands are not feasible. You argue both sides of a coin to get it, both for and against internal consistency. As for other things? It's quite possible, and plausible for you to have issues with things such as permanent enlarge. One well placed dispel magic just cost you 3k gold. There are limitations to being large, such as squeezing limitations on space, lowered AC (-2, 1 for size, 1 for dex), and more. Keeping permanent enlarge is a BAD idea. Makes you easier to hit, limits where you can go, all for what? A bit more damage, and a bonus on grappling.

As for Schroedinger's blah:
HAs it ever occured to you in the analysis you provide above, that when the DMG offers detailed rules on how to price partially charged wands, as opposed to the value of the king's private letters, this may have something to do with the general use in game as part of the equipment?
As for permanencied grapple not a great idea:
I think the instances where being large is of prohibitive disadvanatage are quite rare. Then, the risk of being targeted by a dispel magic is present, but in some cases/settings the permanencied enlarge can be of huge advantage. For instance, in the grappling contest you run (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82831) and where the monk class is currently impressively showcasing its grappling power.

Horn of fog. 10x10 cubes are not effective concealment, ESPECIALLY when you're a 10x10 creature. Multiple rounds would have to be used to duplicate a single level 1 spell.

The Horn of Fog creates an effect similar to an obscuring mist spell in the round it is activated (20ft radius), and will then continue to create 10ft cubes in every round played afterwards (important, for instance, when the horn user moves or the fog is dispersed by wind, or the fog moves on due to the propulsion of the horn).
SRD (bold emphasis mine): This small bugle allows its possessor to blow forth a thick cloud of heavy fog similar to that of an obscuring mist spell. The fog covers a 10-foot square next to the horn blower each round that the user continues to blow the horn; fog clouds travel 10 feet each round in a straight line from the emanation point unless blocked by something substantial such as a wall. The device makes a deep, foghorn-like noise, with the note dropping abruptly to a lower register at the end of each blast. The fog dissipates after 3 minutes. A moderate wind (11+ mph) disperses the fog in 4 rounds; a strong wind (21+ mph) disperses the fog in 1 round.

As for your barbarian idea? LOL. You're trying to make the monk into a diet-batman. Logicninja's guide has the wizard as the one who can drop an enlarge on the barbarian (or a ray of enfeeblement on his foe, etc). The wizard does this without a single item, and if he needs supplementary uses, can also get the wands, and use them, without a single skill point or feat invested, simply by virtue of being a wizard. Thus, you are spending your finite resources, finite skills, and finite feats to do what the wizard does for free... And you can't imagine a better way to do it?

First of all, skills and feats are not finite, but permanent.
Then, why will batman all of a sudden want to sacrifice the buff round and not become invisible, but rather buff the barbarian with an enlarge spell? I sense inconsistencies here. Part of the UMD joker monk tactics was developed to make non-casters not too reliant on caster buffs and here you say, but yes, of course batman will help everyone else first. Rachel Lorelei will have you for this...:smallbiggrin:
Then, the monk for instance uses stealth and thus without recourse to a spell or item does something where the wizard needs a spell (invisibility, and even only 1 min/lvl). Does this again mean the wizard is useless?
You are scoring a lot of own goals, here.:smallsmile:
And maintaining that I cannot imagine a better way to make use of a wand of enlarge is just polemics.
Basically, you are ridiculing a good idea for an ADDITIONAL WAY ON TOP OF ALL OTHERS to use the buff round only to avoid admitting that there is any good in the guide or even joker monk concept. This is really desperate.

[Sir Giacomo]

Fenix_of_Doom...


A party indeed does retreat after a few encounters, usually 3-4 if they were of equal CR, because the wizard is low on spells, so is the cleric and the fighter is low on HP, sounds logical. Now I admit that there could be wizards with a tendency to nova, especially at lower levels but it is condescending to claim that everybody who does not agree with you plays this way.
About scouting: it can work, it can prevent ambushes and it can deliver you surprise/preparation rounds, the problem is that you can't assume this happens, you need to be prepared in the other cases were you can't get these advantages.

I do not assume that everyone disagreeing with me plays this way. I assume that EVERYONE plays this way: when a wizard is low on spells, it is best to retreat. But what I say is (and there is nothing condescending in there) that the way the wizard class is built, it imposes a lot of support and help from the other party members. Accepting this easily one the one hand and going through the roof for a monk using his good move and stealth to get an additional buff round on the other is inconsistent.

Giacomo, stop making a fool out of yourself, animals are probably the weakest type to shift into and versatility is everything, the differences is not marginal.
also Ravid is availeble if you somehow gain the outsider sub-type by being an aasimar or thiefling.

I kindly ask you to use different expressions, e.g. "Condescending" or "make fool of yourself", in particular in light of recent bannings, should not be used here.
Ravid remains an outsider, thanks for confirming that what I said is correct. Now you introduce getting a LA+1 or higher LA races. What kind of arguing is that? That if everyone is playing outsiders, then polymorph should be banned? OK with me. But in the normal PHB setting, banning one, should entail banning the other as well.

Leadership is in fact not available to everyone, it is a specifically only allowed if your DM agreed with it because you for example have too few PC's.
And although it is possible to use familiars to great effect, you'll never achieve the power an extra PC with a few levels less can give you. So they are once again not equal.

No, on the contrary. PHB and DMG explicitly allow it. Only the DM is called for designing the npc - that desgin is entirely to him.
But of course, basically, a DM can always houserule to play without leadership. But then balance again is an issue, as I explained.

I don't feel like commenting on the rest of it.

And I know why.:smallsmile:

P.S. wands do not cost 5x as much in a one shot, they have 1/5 of the charges.

There is no difference- you still have to pay 5 times as much to get the same amount of charges. Which was the issue the OP had.

And, btw, a monk can use INA since his unarmed attacks are considerd manufactured or natural for such effects. I should add this to the guide's FAQ.

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

giacomo, you didn't say anything about what i said about the dm not giving a crafter enough time to craft items being like the dm not letting he monk buy his items

you say that making items only is ok if the dm allows you to, but buying lots of magic items also works only if the dm allows you to

This is because one of the prerequisites of making items is a safe place where you are undisturbed for DAYS, WEEKS or even MONTHS. I dare say that is not the default in most campaigns, where time is often of the essence (LOTR anyone? Dragonlance?).

Whereas the act of buying a magic item (or finding one) is much shorter.

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

maybe the barb uses umd too?

Yes, why not?


edit:

monk has

listen
spot
move silent
hide
umd
spellcraft?

Yes.

- Giacomo

[Stupendous_Man]

This is because one of the prerequisites of making items is a safe place where you are undisturbed for DAYS, WEEKS or even MONTHS. I dare say that is not the default in most campaigns, where time is often of the essence (LOTR anyone? Dragonlance?).

Whereas the act of buying a magic item (or finding one) is much shorter.

- Giacomo

if you can find a place i daresay that is not the default in most campaigns where magic shops are not around every corner

[Sir Giacomo]

OK.

I just had a major insight, which can maybe help also this entire discussion.

WE ATUALLY ALL HAVE THE SAME OPINION::smallsmile:
Wizards are overpowered in most campaigns, monks are underpowered in most campaigns.

My theory (which I think have provided with a lot of proof) is that this is due to the rules being misinterpreted or ignored that
- result in overpwered wizards (e.g. automatically regaining spells overnight, never realy targeted by opponents/monsters/npcs) and
- underpowered monks (e.g. magic items cannot be baught, partially charged wands are a ridiculous idea, stealth tactics will not result in any noteworthy amount of surprise round/and/or buff rounds)

The theory of many other posters is that the (core) rules are inherently flawed, so that overpowered wizards and underpowered monks are the result.

Now, what then is the point of this dicussion? Even if the rules interpretation I provide are in the opinion of many posters not what the RAW or even RAI says (and I say they are), then what hinders you to stop playing with overpowered wizards and underpowered monks, and just use my recommendations?
Instead of resorting to easily broken/unbalancing houseruling clearly going against like providing move and flurry to monks, nerfing wizards and taking morph, gate, and time stop from them. Etc.

What do you think?

- Giacomo

[Stupendous_Man]

ummm dude?

hourserules and champaign changes to classes and tewaks can help classes, bu that 's how a game's played, not how he class is made...


i mean, you can make a monk better than a wizard if you have a campaign setinside a frikkin' huge antimagicfield, but that doesn't mean anything...

using a camaign setting and dm powers to help/hinder classes doesn't help the discussion


I dare say that is not the default in most campaigns, where time is often of the essence (LOTR anyone? Dragonlance?).

final fantasy 1...


anyways, you know there isn't a magial warlmart in most campains, so your monk has to spend (days weeks months?) searching for the right store with the right magic item?

[Fenix_of_Doom]

I don't feel like commenting on the rest of it.

And I know why.:smallsmile:

If you thought it was because even I grow a bit tired of this then gain 10 mind-read points, if not gain 10 failure points.



P.S. wands do not cost 5x as much in a one shot, they have 1/5 of the charges.

There is no difference- you still have to pay 5 times as much to get the same amount of charges. Which was the issue the OP had.

No, no it's not because often, you don't want a fully charged wand, so it in your advantage.


On leadership, the PHB states that you should check with your DM before selecting the feat, the DMG(pg 106) states you should feel free to disallow this feat, as far as I know there is no other feat in existence that states these things.