Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

[Rutee]

By RAI, do you think monk flurry was envisioned to work as extra grapple attempts?

I don't know. I'd say it would make sense for Flurry to synergize with Grapple like that (Grappling being a combat style for Monks), but it would make sense for Flurry to synergize with the Monk's faster movement and it doesn't.

The wording of the Grappling thing is also loose, however. It says "You may take one of those actions", which may mean "You get the full attack action" or just "You may strike with each attack"


I didn't know Arnold Schwarzeneger had an account on GitP.
Just a TVTroper. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RefugeInAudacity)

[Frosty]

I don't know. I'd say it would make sense for Flurry to synergize with Grapple like that (Grappling being a combat style for Monks), but it would make sense for Flurry to synergize with the Monk's faster movement and it doesn't.

The 4-ft goddess speaks! But the monk still confounds me.

What would you of a houserule allowing Monks to spend a Stunning Fist as a free action to be able to Move up to her speed as a Swift action for the next 2+1d4 rounds or something?

[Rutee]

I would use Unarmed Swordsage and save myself a mess of work. Though that would probably help a lot, and is actually a pretty good idea. I don't think a Monk would burn all Stunning Fist attacks in a day, at least..

As to the FoB, looking at the wording, it can be read one of two ways:
"You may make all of your attacks"
Or
"You may make a full attack action"

The wording is anything but unequivocal. I can see how one might draw the "You can FoB in a Grapple" interpretation, but it's hardly the obvious choice.

[Arakune]

Ok, let's try to use it:

"Spell Monk", Human, LX

Level 1

Str 14 (+2), Dex 14(+2), Con 12(+1), Int 14(+2), Wis 14(+2), Cha 8 (-1)
Initiative: +6; Speed: 30ft; AC 14 (10, +2 Dex, +2 Wis), T 14, FF 12
HD: 1d8 (9 HP); Saves: Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +4;
Attack/Grapple: +0/+6
Full Attack: +2 Unarmed attack (1d6, x2) OR +0/+0 Unarmed attack (1d6, x2)

Feats: Impr. Unarmed Attack (Bonus), Impr. Grapple (Bonus), Improved Initiative (Human), Magical Aptitude (1st level)

Skills: Use Magic Device +2 (+3), Spellcraft +2 (+6), Knowledge(Arcane) +4 (+6), Move Silently +4 (+6), Hide +4 (+6), Spot +4 (+6), Listen +4 (+6).

UMD check to beat:
DC 20: use a wand, need 17+, very unlikely.
DC 21: use a scroll, need 18+, even less unlikely.

So this is ruled out at this point.

Grapple: First you need to hit your opponent touch AC before using your grapple modifier. Let's see...

Assuming only one attempt. IF you can use the flurry with grapple, then add +2 to the "need X+ to hit" when you use it. Those without a grapple check are just things you don't need to bother and just assume you succeed.

Animated Object: AC 14, need 12+ to hit. Not reliable.
Camel: AC 12, need 10+ to hit, +10 grapple. Difficult.
Darkmantle: AC 11, need 9+ to hit. Ok.
Lemure: AC 10, need 8+ to hit, +2 grapple. Easy.
Dog, riding: AC 12, need 10+ to hit, +3 grapple. Not reliable.
Dwarf, 1st lvl Warrior: AC 10, need 8+ to hit, +2 grapple. Easy.
Elf, 1st lvl Warrior: AC 11, need 9+ to hit, +2 grapple. Easy.
Drow: Same as Elf.
Fungus: Easy.
Ghoul: AC 12, need 10+ to hit, +2 grapple. Not reliable.
Giant Ant, Worker: AC 10, need 8+ to hit, +1 grapple. Easy.
Giant Bee: AC 12, need 10+ to hit, +2 grapple. Not reliable.
Gnoll: AC 10, need 8+ to hit, +3 grapple. Ok.
Grimlock: AC 11, need 9+ to hit, +4 grapple. Ok.
Homunculus: AC 14, need 12+ to hit. Not reliable.
Horse, Heavy: AC 10, need 8+ to hit, +9 grapple. Difficult
Horse, Light: AC 10, need 8+ to hit, +8 grapple. Difficult
Warhorse: AC 10, need 8+ to hit, +9 grapple. Difficult
Hyena: AC 12, need 10+ to hit, +3 grapple. Not reliable.
Krenshar: AC 12, need 10+ to hit, +2 grapple. Not reliable.
Lizard Folk: AC 10, need 8+ to hit, +2 grapple. Easy.
Manta Ray: AC 9, need 7+ to hit, +9 grapple. Difficult.
Monstrous Centipede, Large: AC 11, need 9+ to hit, +7 grapple. Difficult.
Monstrous Scorpion, Medium: AC 13, need 11+ to hit, +1 grapple. Not reliable.
Mule: Same as Horse, Heavy
Octopus: AC 14, need 12+ to hit, +2 grapple. Not reliable.
Pseudodragon: AC 14, need 12+ to hit. Not reliable.
Shark, Medium: AC 12, need 10+ to hit, +3 grapple. Not reliable.
Wolf Skeleton: AC 13, need 11+ to hit. Not reliable.
Snake, Medium Viper: AC 13, need 11+ to hit. Not reliable.
Grig: AC 16, need 14+ to hit. Difficult.
Nixie: AC 14, need 12+ to hit. Not reliable.
Pixie: AC 15, need 13+ to hit. Not reliable.
Squid: AC 13, need 11+ to hit, +8 grapple. Difficult.
***Swarm, spider: AC 17, need +15 to hit. Difficult/Impossible.
Troglodyte: AC 9, need 7+ to hit. Easy.
Wolf: AC 12, need 10+ to hit, +2 grapple. Not reliable.
Zombie, Troglodyte: Easy.
Air Elemental, Small: AC 14, need 12+ to hit. Not reliable.
Earth Elemental, Small: AC 10, need 8+ to hit. Easy.
Fire Elemental, Small: AC 15, need 13+ to hit. Not reliable/dangerous.
Water Elemental, Small: AC 11, need 9+ to hit. Ok.

Hit:
Below 9: Easy. (12+ in 20 of success)
9-10: Ok. (10,11 in 20 of success)
11-13: Not reliable. (9-7 in 20 of success)
14+: Difficult. (6+ in 20 of success)

Grapple:
Below 3: Easy.
3-4: Ok.
5-6: Not reliable.
6+: Difficult.

A quick look and you see that the 'not reliable' are the majority. Don't get me started on 10 is a reliable score for grappling! If you fail it's a turn you spent doing nothing AND being face to face with the enemy. It's like choosing head or tails in a coin, and you simply CAN'T take for granted a desired score all the time. Although the opponents will also have a difficult hitting you, they usually deal more damage, can fly or have access to ranged attacks.

Let's try a fighter:

"Fighter Mc Fighter"
Str 16 (+3), Dex 12 (+1), Con 12 (+1), Int 14 (+2), Wis 10 (+0), Cha 10 (+0)
Initiative: +5; Speed: 30ft; AC 16 (10, +1 Dex, +4 Armor, +1 shield), T 11, FF 15
HD: 1d10+1 (11 HP); Saves: Fort +3, Ref +1, Will +0;
Attack/Grapple: +1/+8
Full Attack: +4 Unarmed attack (1d4, x2) OR +4 Guisarme (2d4, x3)
Feats: Impr. Unarmed Attack (Bonus), Impr. Grapple (Bonus), Improved Initiative (Human).
Use Magic Device +2 (+2), Spellcraft +2 (+4), Knowledge(Arcane) +2 (+4), Spot +2 (+2), Listen +2 (+2).

As a weapon he could simply use a reach weapon and grapple any opponent that are stupid enough to enter his threatened area.
Since his UMD checks are mediocre, he can take magical aptitude/skill focus at 3rd level and focus his fighter feats in improving his grapple, or taking trip, disarm, etc.

Since he have a higher BAB and grapple modifier, he will only have an unreliable rating at opponents with touch AC 13-14 and can even try to grapple things with +8/+9 grapple with an unreliable instead of difficult rating.

The only thing the fighter have less than the monk are saves, but since in this exercise he are a part of a party and will try to contribute more, an prismatic spray in the face are not an insta-kill. Later he can tear apart this gap.


I will disassemble this until the last level... It will be fun...

[Eldariel]

Just allow the Monk to Pounce unarmed. That'll make perfect sense given the fact that Unarmed Strikes can be done with any part of the body; you can lash out the full attack routine on in a single moment. It'll also allow them to initiate a combat from a distance.

Also allow them to Flurry whenever taking an attack action; that'll make Spring Attack worth a damn and will help them with combining their mobility with their number of attacks. It'll make them natural skirmishers too; overall I can't really see how you could go wrong with this (except for the fact that it'd be hilariously effective with Snap Kick and Sun School/Shadow Pounce along with Swift + Move + Standard teleportation).

With those two changes, they'd have a ton of synergy between their abilities and they'd be exceptionally mobile warriors, making for very effective melee; they'd be able to make life a living hell to other melee combatants by trading hits on a 3-for-1 basis, while being able to engage squishier folks 180' away full attacking (or 90' full attack on surprise rounds).

One last potential fix would be to allow them to use Dex/Wis over Str for Trip, Disarm, Grapple and maybe Sunder. That makes the basic tactical combat maneuvers available to them when not focusing on Str too, making for less boring builds.

Oh yeah, and turn their speed increment into Unnamed Bonus from Enhancement Bonus. Seriously, what the hell is up with that? All scaling speed bonuses are Enhancement, so such classes can't use Magic to enhance it further while one-time bonuses like Fast Movement from Barbarian are unnamed. That's ****ed up and stupid; it should all be Unnamed so it'd all stack and so that it'd present the core movement of the character, meaning any magical effects are applied on top of that.


The idea of giving them Stunning Fist for Swift Action movement is interesting, but it's really just Travel Devotion for Stunning Fists. If you specified this can be used in conjuction with Spring Attack to make a full attack and move twice, it would probably work out.

Still, I'd stick to using different strikes as Stunning Fist-replacements. Turn Undead-replacements are a bit easier to make as Turn Undead, at the very core of it, is just channeling energy and you can do pretty much anything with channeled energy, but Stunning Fist is a specific type of Ki strike, and there's only so much that can logically replace such attempts.

[Animefunkmaster]

Your Flurry is not your BAB. Using a Flurry is a full attack action. At no point does the grappling thing say you may make a full attack action.


Attack Your Opponent

You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.

You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.


This being an option for grappling, I fail to see how you can not use flurry of blows (albeit at a -4). This only limits two weapon fighting. Notice how most actions in a grapple are explained for you as either an attack, standard, or move action. This one is open ended, and does not limit you from making a full attack action, which allows you to flurry.

Jumping over to rules of the game:

Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.

You can't attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons. If you have multiple natural weapons, however, you can use all of them while grappling. In many cases, though, you're better off making an opposed grapple check to damage your opponent rather than making an attack with a natural weapon (see the section on damaging your opponent for details).

So I fail to see how grappling limits full attack actions in this respect.

[Talic]

This needs addressing faster than I intended - it's already spread as "truth" on the WoTC boards and I sincerely hope that the one who posted it there will correct it.*

Talic, what has gone into you here? You are trying to show that the monk cannot use the wands I budgeted becaused you show actually that by the DMG pcs are actually supposed to HAVE EVEN MORE AVAILABLE FOR CONSUMABLE ITEMS?

This is the most confusing post you made so far.

And, of course, it is wrong. The DMG p. 135 table is the only one that counts. And it is the only wbl table ever used to my knowledge to make character builds. You can spend all your wbl in scrolls or potions or wands. As long as you follow the 1/4 per single item guideline (DMG p. 199), you're fine.

Eagerly awaiting your correction.

- Giacomo

*EDIT: And something tells me Dandu on WoTC=Solo....:smallsmile: So much for the alleged "optimisation giants" over at WoTC...:smallbiggrin:

Wrong. DMG 135 is all that is needed at character creation. DMG 51 is the list of how much you make. By comparing that to how much you're supposed to gain each level, you see that there's an excess. That is denoted in the table. The reason that this has spread as truth on WotC boards, is because it's been said by WotC designers. The exact amounts weren't listed in these articles (which I derived by use of tables), but the message that the DMG wealth gain per encounter vs wbl is designed to leave you with a little extra every level for such disposable items.

Example(using numbers that are not accurate, so as to not violate board policy):

Level x: I have 13,000 gp of treasure. By the time I adventure and go to level (x+1), I should have 18,000 gp of treasure. Thus, in the 14 encounters that level me, I need to gain 5,000 gp overall.

My DM goes by the encounter reward tables, and gets perfectly average results overall. The total amount he gets is 6,300 gp. Now, so long as during that level, I spent about 1,300 gp on consumables (let's say, a wand of cure light wounds that the cleric used to heal me, a potion of water breathing to survive the 3/4 mile watery corridor, and 5 potions of Mage Armor, as I'm unarmored, for more challenging fights.), I'm right at 18,000.

Now, Let's say I use 4,000 gp of consumables over that level. I've now gained 6,300, spent 4,000, and have a net treasure value of 15,300. Now, I'm 2,700 gp behind where I should be, because I used more disposable wealth than I was allocated for my level.

Thus, overuse of disposable items leads to one of two things:

1) DM increases the treasure that you, and only you, get, to make up for the disparity.

or

2) You have less WBL than you should, as you progress in levels as a character.

The "Joker" build is fine for WBL if created at a specific level. But as this monk build adventures, if it spends more per level than the table I listed allows, it WILL be behind in WBL. Nothing you say can change that. The only solution is for the DM to deviate from RAW treasure rewards because you deviated from anticipated exenses.


It's basic economics. You will make a certain amount at each level, by RAW. You will make this amount no matter how much you spend. If you make $100, and spend $10, you have $90 left.

If you make that same $100, but spend $40 to get it, you only made $60.

In other words, it is not the DM's job to give you more money than others when you blow through what you have like Augustus Gloop in Wonka's factory.

[Animefunkmaster]

but it would make sense for Flurry to synergize with the Monk's faster movement and it doesn't.


I believe it does, you can move the enemy further, incurring more AoOs. I have never thought of the monk as a solo anything, the monk benefits most as a team player. Dragging a foe through a thicket of blades crusader is going to be brutal.

[Rutee]

This being an option for grappling, I fail to see how you can not use flurry of blows (albeit at a -4). This only limits two weapon fighting. Notice how most actions in a grapple are explained for you as either an attack, standard, or move action. This one is open ended, and does not limit you from making a full attack action, which allows you to flurry.

Jumping over to rules of the game:

So I fail to see how grappling limits full attack actions in this respect.

Grappling does not explicitly say "You may execute a full attack action".
Check the wording on FoB: It explicitly requires you to use a Full Attack Action. It says if you have multiple natural weapons (FoB isn't a natural weapon; It's a Class Feature/Special Attack that grants additional attacks with a natural weapon)

You could try and argue that there's nos uch thing as a full attack action, because Full Attack is listed under Full Round Actions, not Full Attack Action.. but then you would negate FoB ever working.


I believe it does, you can move the enemy further, incurring more AoOs. I have never thought of the monk as a solo anything, the monk benefits most as a team player. Dragging a foe through a thicket of blades crusader is going to be brutal.
And they would ignore the crusader because...?

[Talic]

Talic, keep in mind that you have to spend an attack every round to maintain a pin, and that you can always fail them.

Giacomo, I simply cannot manage to add up the items in your 20th level build the same way twice, but as far as I can tell, it breaks WBL by the DMG chart, although not by Talic's chart. So that seems a tad counterproductive on his part.

My chart isn't supposed to list how much you're supposed to have. It's to list how much each character is alloted to spend on disposable items each level. If you have X, and in 14 encounters, you need Y, and you get Z total between levels, then you can afford to spend (Z-(Y-X)) and still achieve that.

EDIT: As for grappling, I am aware. However, with even a +3 bonus, the pinner will succeed twice as often as the monk. For every Failure the fighter has, the monk will have 2. Here's an odds breakdown, since you mentioned possibilities.

Probabilities:
Odds of the better grappler Pinning: 2 in 3.
Odds of the better grappler Pinning in 2 attempts: 8 in 9.
Odds of the monk making a successful damage by grapple: 1 in 3.
Odds of the monk breaking a pin in 1 attack: 1 in 3.
Odds of the monk breaking a pin in 2 attacks: 5 in 9
Odds of the monk breaking a pin in 3 attacks approx 2 in 3 (19 in 27).

By this, in 9 rounds:
The better grappler will pin in 1 attack 6 times, and get 6 opportunities to attempt to damage. (at -2)
Of those 6 pins, the monk will use his first attempt and break it twice.
-The monk will get 4 attempts to deal damage. (2 at -3, 2 at -8)
Of the 4 remaining pins, the monk will break the pin on the second attempt 1 time.
-The monk gets 1 attempt to deal damage. (at -8)
The better grappler will pin in 2 attacks 2 more times.
Of these 2 times, the monk will break 1 on the second attempt, and get 1 attempt to deal damage. (at -8)
The better grappler will fail to pin 1 time.
The monk will get 3 attempts to deal damage. (2 at -3, 1 at -8)

Now, the better grappler gets 6 attempts to damage(at -2), at an average damage of 12 (1d4+1d8+5) - enlarge bonuses to damage type. 2.5 should hit, for 30 damage.

The monk gets 9 attempts to deal damage (4 at -3, 5 at -8), and of those, with an average damage of 12 (2d6+5) - enlarge bonuses to damage type. 2 should hit, for 24 damage.

This shows that, by the odds, in 9 rounds, the fighter will deal, on average, 25% more damage, using the pinning tactic.

Without filtering all the monk's attacks through the requirement of breaking pin before grapple, the monk is close in terms of damage to the fighter.

In 9 rounds, without pins, the better grappler will get 18 attempts to damage. (9 at +3, 9 at -2)
In 9 rounds, without pins, the monk will get 27 attempts to damage. (18 at -3, 9 at -8)

Of these, the better grappler will likely succeed in 6 of his +3 attempts, and 3 of his -2 attempts, at 12 damage each, for 108 damage.
The monk will likely succeed in 6 of his -3 attempts, and 1 of his -8 attempts, for 84 damage.

In this instance, the listed better grappler (which uses the same attacks, damage, and bonuses as the fighter I presented) does about 20% more damage.

Thus, while pinning helps the better grappler, in situations where damage needs to be dealt quickly, the advantage still goes to him, albeit less effeciently.

[tyckspoon]

And they would ignore the crusader because...?

Well, they wouldn't, naturally, but if your grappling is dominating enough to reliably drag an enemy around and force AoOs said enemy probably is not going to be free to try and take a shot at the Crusader. His friends might, if they're not more interested in going after the guy with no Dex bonus and no threatened spaces.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The problem I have with the Monk isn't that it's underpowered, it's that the class doesn't serve a purpose in a party. It is designed to survive. Look at the class features. Situational immunities, good saves, the more important stats also affecting saves, moderate HD, fast movement, Dimension Door, the skill list. The class is able to survive and escape mostly anything. The problem is, that role is nigh-useless in a party enviroment, which is the reason Giacomo no longer touts it.The monk survives very well, but survival isn't enough. You have to contribute, which is why Giacomo has to go through so much convoluted UMD to even try to make it viable. He grapples(a tactic which even full BAB, high Str Fighters with feats to burn ignore), uses a cross-class skill (which burns through his WBL faster than he gains it), and relys on getting several rounds of buffing in before his opponents notice him(something it is impossible to rely on in my experience). Why? Because the monk should be a NPC class. Rename it "Explorer" or something, take away FoB, and you suddenly have a messenger. And I doubt anyone would even be having this discussion.

[Rutee]

Isn't there a 50% hit chance to strike you with any melee attack attempted on the grappled foe, if you're going to try that?

[NEO|Phyte]

Isn't there a 50% hit chance to strike you with any melee attack attempted on the grappled foe, if you're going to try that?

Thats only on ranged attacks into a grapple.

[Rutee]

Spiffy. I thought you couldn't drag people around like that unless you were utterly dominating the Grapple though, with a major advantage? A major advantage that one of the above posters is demonstrating is unlikely (Via posting grapple and to-hit mods..)

[Talic]

Spiffy. I thought you couldn't drag people around like that unless you were utterly dominating the Grapple though, with a major advantage? A major advantage that one of the above posters is demonstrating is unlikely (Via posting grapple and to-hit mods..)

If the monk were to attempt 2 times to do this, he would have a 1 in 2 chance of succeeding (assuming his opponent has about +3 to his grapple mod). Each move action only provokes one time, so of this, the monk would cause 1 AoO to be provoked per round, just over half the time.

The same could be accomplished more reliably with the spell Snake's Swiftness.

[Gorbash]

Their primary attacks are entirely enough due to touch attack for grapple tactics.
And I showed many ways to enhance the unarmed strike to produce 300 damage or so per round at level 16. Or was it 15? Do not remember right now.

IF you hit with all atacks, which are at -4 penalty. Where did you get the idea that in grapple you need to hit only touch AC? It only says that you can make an attack against the opponent you're grappling at a -4 penalty.

[turkishproverb]

The conclusion of this thread is, on a forum where religious and political discussions are forbidden, people have found a substitute.
Also, uncle Tzeentch approves of this thread.

Sigged.

Incidentally, Sir Giacomo is right about one thing at least, it is a little Hypocritical of people to complain about his use of magical items when all the classes do alot of it.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Interpreting the list of actions in a grapple to be all exhaustive would not only spell trouble for martial adepts, who would not be able to use maneuvers in a grapple (not even those designed to be used in a grapple), but it would also be contradicting itself, since speaking does not appear on the list.

So under a very literal interpretation of RAW the answers to the following questions would be:

Q: Can FoB grant an extra grapple action?
A: No.

Q: Can Haste-effects grant an extra grapple action?
A: No.

Q: Can I initiate Maneuvers in a Grapple?
A: No.

Q: Can I speak while grappling?
A: Only if you are casting a spell.

However, the following piece of text from the Rules Compendium suggests that full-round actions can be used in a grapple.


A creature that has a high enough base attack bonus can use a fullround action to make a grapple check for every extra attack its base attack bonus would allow it if it were a character. That means such a creature can make two grapple checks if its base attack bonus is +6 to +10, three if +11 to +15, and four if +16 or higher.

I do not think it is much of a stretch to allow any extra attacks from the full-round action to also be included, such as those allowed by Haste-effects or FoB.

Of course, grapple checks are still not derived directly from attacks as seen by the treatment of creatures with natural weapons. Regardless of the number of natural weapon attacks allowed in a full round action the number of grapple checks would still be determined by BAB, so stretching the rules to include extra attacks would emphasize the inconsistent treatment of attacks and natural attacks, but I digress.

I think ideally the RAW should have made greater allowance for other actions in a grapple and I think ideally the answer would have been:

Q: Can FoB grant an extra grapple action?
A: Yes.

Q: Can Haste-effects grant an extra grapple action?
A: Yes.

Q: Can I initiate Maneuvers in a Grapple?
A: Yes, as long as they do not require movement.

Q: Can I speak while grappling?
A: Yes.

(The normal conditions and restrictions of grapple still apply)

RAI might even agree.

[Solo]

Sigged.

Incidentally, Sir Giacomo is right about one thing at least, it is a little Hypocritical of people to complain about his use of magical items when all the classes do alot of it.

We're not complaining about the mere use of magical items, we're complaining about the use of magical items in a way that breaks WLB.

[Nebo_]

Sigged.

Incidentally, Sir Giacomo is right about one thing at least, it is a little Hypocritical of people to complain about his use of magical items when all the classes do alot of it.

No, that's precisely the point. How is a monk just as good as all the other classes when everyone can do that. It's beneficial to everyone equally, so take that away and the monk comes out on the bottom again.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

And before I go to bed at long last now, @Fenix of Doom. You want even MORE hard numbers than I already provided in the most detailed level-by-level guide of any character class on these boards yet?
Well...no. I left the wand budget flexible for a reason: to offer it plenty of room for interpretation for plenty of tactics that will depend on the campaign and fellow pcs entirely.
What I DID show already several times was, that by level 10, the Joker monk will have been able to cast a 1st level spell a thousand times (and yes, Hide from Animals can also be put inside a wand and can help the whole group clearing an animal encounter)
A 2nd level spell? Over 150 times.
Number of encounters up to level 10? 140.
- Giacomo

Yes, yes I do want more hard numbers than you've provided so far(otherwise I wouldn't have asked for them), do you want to know why? Because your not convincing a lot of people with what you wrote so far.
And that's not because everybody else is stubborn, it's because your guide isn't all that great, yep, face it, it's lacking, you simply assumed to much, you gave no backup options if, for example, the DM doesn't allow MW item for every skill, what do you do?
Most other guides do note what is good but might not be allowed, your guide just assumes every one can play with you as DM, it's true that for a theoretical discussion following strict RAW is a good idea, but for practical advise it is not.

As if that wasn't enough all you do is point back at the guide by which people weren't convinced in the first place, do you really think that if they read it 5 times they will be? I've seen you state the number of wand uses you have be level 10, but how did you get that number again, I thought it was all the gold you reserved for expendable items up to level 10.(if I'm wrong please correct me)
Now this doesn't prove the following:
1)that this build is in any way viable before level 10, it could be but it isn't proven.
2) that if you use an alternative such as a potion or a scroll of a higher level wand you will still viable.
Your post quoted above suggests to me that it isn't possible, because if you spend money on potions first, then on level 1 wands it seems to me that you won't have enough money to get a level 2 wand, I can't be sure however, because you gave so little hard numbers, like how often you plan on using your items.

Now feel free to ignore my advise and keep repeating yourself until the end of time, I don't care, I'm just trying to get a useful discussion started.

Edit: regarding the hide form animals.
Your argument states nothing new, I now hide form animals can be put into a wand, what I want to know is how do you survive until you used it on your whole party.
Let's say you have a party of 5 at level 3, you want to use HFA to avoid an encounter in which neither side has a surprise round.
your Use Magic Device is +9(or 7 if MW item is not allowed), wand DC is 20, you need 5 successful castings, you need an 11+ so you have 50% chance of success, that means that on average you need 10 rounds to do this, you could be done in 5, it could take 20, but on average you need 10 rounds, in 10 rounds, the rest of the party could probably finished the encounter the normal way as well.

[Gorbash]

Yeah, but monk without this UMD heavy build will suck 99% of the time, whereas for a Shock Trooper/Karmic Strike/Spiked Chain/Whatsnot Fighter a magic weapon isn't the only thing he relies on...

[lord_khaine]

I'm not claiming that monks are bad. I'm saying that they're worse at everything than someone else. Something that you yourself implied than with your 80% comment

...... as i belive i have said before, anything i have said relatet to % and classes were to explain why i thought you were wrong, it had nothing to do with monks.


Now, how about the barbarian, who has a movement of 40, and a better attack bonus and much higher damage output?
there the monk has to be happy with his still higher speed, better saves and skills, as well as his other tactical options.


Or perhaps just straight rolls? Fighter will have 2 attacks, and will do 1d3+1d6+5 per hit, with a 66% accuracy. Weighted damage per attack is 6.93 per attack, or 13.86 for each round's 2 attacks.
Monk will have 3 attacks, for 1d10+4 damage each hit. Average damage per hit of 9.5, with a 34% chance of success. Weighted damage is 3.23 per attack, or 9.69 for his 3 attacks in a round. The fighter has slightly better hp, due to damage die, and is outputting an average of 4.17 damage more per round. Upgrading the monk to Str 18? Lowers the bonus to +2, and changes the average damages to:
Fighter: Weighted damage 12.35 per round.
Monk: Weighted damage 12.05 per round.

for a start i dont think you get to ad your unarmed damage damage to the damage of the armor spike, so it stays at just 1d6+5.

now if the figher has taken a potion of enlarge, and wasted a feat on weapon specalisation, then his damage would end up at 1d8+7, for a average of 11.5

assuming 3 points of difference in grapple scores, his first attack would hit 65% of the time, and the second one 40% of the time, that would give a DPR of 12.075

the monk is also enlarget, and he has taken improved natural attack, ending up with 3d8+5, average 18.5
he hits tvice at 35%, and one at 10%, for a DPR of 14.8


That will disappear permanently at level 11, when the fighter gets a bonus attack from BAB. Thus, the monk is not the best at grapple. Even WITH the extra attacks from flurry.

well, level 11 is also where the monk gets a third attack at full BAB from grapple, and imo just getting the fighter into a grapple is a victory for the monk, since it means he wont be using a 2handet weapon, something that would make him do a lot more damage than his armor spikes can do.


No, whether that makes his class better is a matter of optimization. If the monk is trying to keep up in grapple, he will have a lower AC. If the monk is trying to keep his saves up, he will have lower AC. Lower AC = greater chance to be hit. Further, the monk will typically have less HP. Further, the fighter will typically have several other feats available (at level 8, after the imp grapple, the human fighter has 6 feats to burn, on other things to boost effectiveness). While the monk may be better than the fighter at some things, he'll be worse at any combat related task. Thus, the monk is a less effective combatant than the fighter.


yes the figher has a lot more feat, but the monk does get quite a few bonus feats of his own, and can even ignore the prerequisites on them.
that means he will get the usefull combination of combat reflexes and improved trip.
yes he will proberly do a bit less damage than a fighter, but as i have said several times before, then its something i belive is compensated by greater speed, better skills and better saves.
and keeping the saves up wont impair the AC.


Rogues? Have better skills, evasion, superior damage through sneak attack, and an ability to be unflankable and retain dex to AC. They also have trapfinding. Now, a monk could reliably compete in fighting ability with a rogue. However, the monk will fall behind in scouting (unable to find and remove most traps, including every magical trap in existence), skills (if you thought the monk had a decent list of skills, check out the rogue), and espionage.

better skills yes, the monk also have evasion, the superior damage of the rogue is very situational, and if first the rogue gets flanked then i think his attackers not getting any bonus is a small comfort.
and as long as the saves have been kept up, then the monk has some sort of trapfinding skills as well.


That same monk would have to start the round in full attack range, and make 4 attacks to have a better than 50% chance to land 1. Meanwhile the grappler with the +7 mod will be landing 80.5% of hits. Even assuming that the monk deals twice the damage per hit of the enemy grappler, he will need to make twice as many attacks every round to be even in average damage.

well when i considder grappling, then its often to deny a enemy some of his damage, by making sure he cant use his weapon, or to force him to stop attacking someone, like fx a rogue or a unbuffed wizard.


And the SRD? And everywhere else that prices are listed? Mighty widespread mistake, that. When the RAW doesn't agree with you, it's a mistake, now? Heh.

When the RAW doesnt make sense, then i will start to considder if its a mistake, and someone else did come with the explanation that its proberly cut&paste error from 3.0, where potions of enlarge was more expensive.
when you also compared it to the price guidelines of potions, then i find enough justification to continue buying my potions at 50 gp.
When the

[Illiterate Scribe]

Isn't there a 50% hit chance to strike you with any melee attack attempted on the grappled foe, if you're going to try that?


Thats only on ranged attacks into a grapple.


Spells, too. (http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/3636/portalsciencerf3.png)


When the RAW doesnt make sense, then i will start to considder if its a mistake, and someone else did come with the explanation that its proberly cut&paste error from 3.0, where potions of enlarge was more expensive.
when you also compared it to the price guidelines of potions, then i find enough justification to continue buying my potions at 50 gp.
When the

Sorry to give succour to the enemy, but I think Khaine's right here; like Sovereign Glue, which apparently can only be made by near-epic casters, it would seem to be a mistake.

[lord_khaine]

Yeah, but monk without this UMD heavy build will suck 99% of the time, whereas for a Shock Trooper/Karmic Strike/Spiked Chain/Whatsnot Fighter a magic weapon isn't the only thing he relies on...

and thats comparing a core-build with one that isnt core....

[Gorbash]

and thats comparing a core-build with one that isnt core....

Then just power attack... He still outclasses the wandless monk by far...

[Kurald Galain]

Incidentally, Sir Giacomo is right about one thing at least, it is a little Hypocritical of people to complain about his use of magical items when all the classes do alot of it.

No, he is wrong about his claim that magical items are what makes a monk great, since, you know, all the classes do a lot of it.

Anyway. Based on this thread we can certainly conclude that the gonk is ineffective until at the very least level 9, probably level 13, because that's the point where it can reliably get UMD to work. And after that, it has a high likelihood of not being able to finish its own buff sequence before the combat is over. The point is that Vael's monk guide is simply better than this one.

Furthermore, we can conclude that the WOTC charop board has expressed strong disagreement with pretty much the entire guide. We can all draw our own conclusions about the likelihood that a single person who has made a single public build knows more about D&D than a virtual thinktank that has given us literally hundreds of theoretical and practical optimizations.

It works like this: a man is driving on the D35 freeway at high speed during nighttime. Then he hears a warning on the radio, that somebody on the freeway is driving in the wrong direction, which is obviously dangerous. The man looks out of the window, thinks for a bit, and calls the radio station on his cell phone. He informs them that their warning is a bit off - there's not just one person driving in the wrong direction, he sees over a hundred people driving in the wrong direction! It's almost as if everybody is... and at that point the phone call is cut off by a crash.

[Gorbash]

It works like this: a man is driving on the D35 freeway at high speed during nighttime. Then he hears a warning on the radio, that somebody on the freeway is driving in the wrong direction, which is obviously dangerous. The man looks out of the window, thinks for a bit, and calls the radio station on his cell phone. He informs them that their warning is a bit off - there's not just one person driving in the wrong direction, he sees over a hundred people driving in the wrong direction! It's almost as if everybody is... and at that point the phone call is cut off by a crash.

Well put. :smallbiggrin: And 100% apliable to this case.

[Nebo_]

No, he is wrong about his claim that magical items are what makes a monk great, since, you know, all the classes do a lot of it.

Anyway. Based on this thread we can certainly conclude that the gonk is ineffective until at the very least level 9, probably level 13, because that's the point where it can reliably get UMD to work. And after that, it has a high likelihood of not being able to finish its own buff sequence before the combat is over. The point is that Vael's monk guide is simply better than this one.

Furthermore, we can conclude that the WOTC charop board has expressed strong disagreement with pretty much the entire guide. We can all draw our own conclusions about the likelihood that a single person who has made a single public build knows more about D&D than a virtual thinktank that has given us literally hundreds of theoretical and practical optimizations.

It works like this: a man is driving on the D35 freeway at high speed during nighttime. Then he hears a warning on the radio, that somebody on the freeway is driving in the wrong direction, which is obviously dangerous. The man looks out of the window, thinks for a bit, and calls the radio station on his cell phone. He informs them that their warning is a bit off - there's not just one person driving in the wrong direction, he sees over a hundred people driving in the wrong direction! It's almost as if everybody is... and at that point the phone call is cut off by a crash.

tl;dr

The Giamonk is made from fail. Everyone knows this. Except for you, that is. Now, logically, someone has to be wrong and it sure as hell isn't the overwhelming majority of people who actually know how D&D works. That leaves you, Giacomo. You fail.

[Talic]

there the monk has to be happy with his still higher speed, better saves and skills, as well as his other tactical options.And worse saves, as Fort will likely be behind the barbarian, even if just slightly. As Reflex is the least important of the saves, that gives the monk 1 viable arguing point with saves. As for skills, Barbarians aren't fighters. They get a more competitive skill list, oddly enough. As far as "other tactical options", that is much like Giacomo's monk stance 8 threads ago. When not defined, impossible to critique, and thus, meaningless.

for a start i dont think you get to ad your unarmed damage damage to the damage of the armor spike, so it stays at just 1d6+5.That's why the spikes say "as additional damage". They're added. If you don't think they do, then you are, sadly, wrong.
now if the figher has taken a potion of enlarge, and wasted a feat on weapon specalisation, then his damage would end up at 1d8+7, for a average of 11.5Incorrect conclusion based on flawed premise. Disregarded.

assuming 3 points of difference in grapple scores, his first attack would hit 65% of the time, and the second one 40% of the time, that would give a DPR of 12.075Actually 66% of the time, but who's splitting hairs here? As for DPR, incorrect conclusion based on flawed premise. Disregarded.

the monk is also enlarget, and he has taken improved natural attack, ending up with 3d8+5, average 18.5Assuming an 18 Str? It's nice how you can do that. Please post a list of stats, that, on a 28 point build, show your superior saves, strength, and the like.

he hits tvice at 35%, and one at 10%, for a DPR of 14.8Incorrect conclusion based on flawed premise. Disregarded.
well, level 11 is also where the monk gets a third attack at full BAB from grapple, and imo just getting the fighter into a grapple is a victory for the monk, since it means he wont be using a 2handet weapon, something that would make him do a lot more damage than his armor spikes can do.So, let me get this straight... If the fighter even gets in a grapple, the monk wins, even if the fighter proves more efficient in the grapple, more deadly in the grapple, and defeats the monk in the grapple? All on the grounds that, even if the fighter wins, he gave up an attack form even more valuable than the one he just beat the monk with?? Interesting logic, that.
yes the figher has a lot more feat, but the monk does get quite a few bonus feats of his own, and can even ignore the prerequisites on them.Yes, he gets some feats. Around 5-7 by level 20. The fighter's swinging 11. Eleven options to power up his attack forms. Your argument is not at all dissimilar to me saying, "Yeah, the monk has a good will save, but the fighter gets bonus points into it too." This is an example of "Monk gets something, fighter gets more." Further, the only feat I see that really has a restrictive prerequisite, stunning attack, is next to worthless at higher levels, and only moderately useful at lower levels.
that means he will get the usefull combination of combat reflexes and improved trip.
yes he will proberly do a bit less damage than a fighter, but as i have said several times before, then its something i belive is compensated by greater speed, better skills and better saves.All of which make the monk harder to kill, but do not perform the core thing a class needs for parity. The ability to contribute to the party goals. And thus far, in the combat role (subset: grappling), the monk is outperformed by the fighter. You've not brought any figures to the table that were not based on a flawed assumption to begin with.

and keeping the saves up wont impair the AC.Keeping the strength up will impair both, however.

better skills yes, the monk also have evasion, the superior damage of the rogue is very situational, and if first the rogue gets flanked then i think his attackers not getting any bonus is a small comfort.I like how the situational tactic of grappling and stunning is touted so strongly, but the situational ability to sneak attack is "very situational". The main bonus for uncanny dodge is "keeps dex when flat footed", meaning that it's very difficult to deny that basic defense. If the rogue hides and catches something flatfooted, he's got a much easier time hitting it. This is not true of the converse. The superior damage of the rogue, regardless of how you phrase it, is still superior damage. Weapons can further enhance that at higher levels, with damage adding abilities. That's optional however, as the rogue has the monk beat on damage output, and with proper optimization, can even reliably snipe most creatures, providing consistent superior damage, from the light fighter role.

and as long as the saves have been kept up, then the monk has some sort of trapfinding skills as well.What? By walking into the trap blindly and triggering them? How about the Spear trap that makes an attack against your flat-footed AC? Or the pit trap that activates 10 feet behind the trigger? Your party will be really thanking you for your shortfalls when they're taking their long fall.

well when i considder grappling, then its often to deny a enemy some of his damage, by making sure he cant use his weapon, or to force him to stop attacking someone, like fx a rogue or a unbuffed wizard.That's one application of it, true. Removing an enemy from a fight. The fighter just does that better, as he can more reliably grab higher AC enemies with his higher attack bonus.
When the RAW doesnt make sense, then i will start to considder if its a mistake, and someone else did come with the explanation that its proberly cut&paste error from 3.0, where potions of enlarge was more expensive.
when you also compared it to the price guidelines of potions, then i find enough justification to continue buying my potions at 50 gp.
Good for you. Bad if you're trying to be RAW. Which this is. Because if that's a mistake, then I think that the fighter's low base reflex and will saves are a cut and paste error from 3.0, and should actually be good save progression, not bad. That's the thing about assuming it's a mistake without errata saying so. When you do it, you're wrong.

[Illiterate Scribe]

tl;dr

The Giamonk is made from fail. Everyone knows this. Except for you, that is. Now, logically, someone has to be wrong and it sure as hell isn't the overwhelming majority of people who actually know how D&D works. That leaves you, Giacomo. You fail.

Well, logically, that's a fallacious appeal ad populum ...

[Gorbash]

So, how shall we name this fallacy? Epic Fail Fallacy? Giacomo Fallacy? Should we vote?

[Illiterate Scribe]

Well, wait till the results (of the playtest) come in ...

[Kurald Galain]

tl;dr

The Giamonk is made from fail. Everyone knows this. Except for you, that is.

And you're saying this to me because...?

[Kurald Galain]

Well, logically, that's a fallacious appeal ad populum ...

That's what Gene Ray said... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Cube)

[Ryusacerdos]

And you're saying this to me because...?

He didn't read your post and thought you were supporting him - or he thought you were the poster above you. (hahaha)

Anyways may take on it: Batman can buy stuff too, and for every gold used by a Monk to emulate another class's spells and abilities, the Batman is just adding onto his.

[Talic]

Interpreting the list of actions in a grapple to be all exhaustive would not only spell trouble for martial adepts, who would not be able to use maneuvers in a grapple (not even those designed to be used in a grapple), but it would also be contradicting itself, since speaking does not appear on the list.

So under a very literal interpretation of RAW the answers to the following questions would be:

Q: Can FoB grant an extra grapple action?
A: No.

Q: Can Haste-effects grant an extra grapple action?
A: No.

Q: Can I initiate Maneuvers in a Grapple?
A: No.

Q: Can I speak while grappling?
A: Only if you are casting a spell.

This last one seems to be your way of taking it to absurdity. I'm going to cherish this, because it's one of the few times I have where you're wrong. Under the combat section of the SRD states that you can take free actions while performing other actions. It then says you way speak at any time, even if it is not your turn. The grapple text does not contradict that. In fact, in two points, casting (wherein you may use spells with verbal components, which means that by default, you have the capacity to speak), and pinning (where it states that your opponent may render you unable to speak, showing that, before that point, you were not unable to speak), it infers that it's allowed. By not listing it, it shows that it is not an action that is limited by your base attack bonus, as free actions so rarely are.

By this, it seems that the flurry of blows would work with attacks, wherein you take a -4 to hit and make an attack, as the ability does infer that you can full attack with it, and that is an attack. You could maybe even argue that the grabpple check to deal damage qualifies as an attack. However, other checks, including moving the grapple, pinning, escaping a pin, and the like, don't follow that line of reasoning, and would seem both not allowed by the wording of flurry of blows, nor allowed by the text of grapple.

Sorry if I get pleasure in this. It's so rare that I have a solid, cogent argument against you, Silvanos.

[Nebo_]

And you're saying this to me because...?

That was bad phrasing on my part. I actually directed it at Giacomo. I was, in fact, agreeing with you.

[Gorbash]

Although Batman without any items beats Joker without any items any day of the week...

[Solo]

Well, wait till the results (of the playtest) come in ...

I hope you all are ready to be dazzled by THE VEIDT METHOD!

[Illiterate Scribe]

That's what Gene Ray said... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Cube)

No, Gene Ray disparaged the ONENESS WORD BASTARD EVIL of his opposition.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

This last one seems to be your way of taking it to absurdity.

Yes, yes it is.

I included it to show how absurd interpretations can get if you do not look at any context.




I'm going to cherish this, because it's one of the few times I have where you're wrong. Under the combat section of the SRD states that you can take free actions while performing other actions. It then says you way speak at any time, even if it is not your turn. The grapple text does not contradict that. In fact, in two points, casting (wherein you may use spells with verbal components, which means that by default, you have the capacity to speak), and pinning (where it states that your opponent may render you unable to speak, showing that, before that point, you were not unable to speak), it infers that it's allowed. By not listing it, it shows that it is not an action that is limited by your base attack bonus, as free actions so rarely are.

Now, I do not disagree with you and if anyone were to ask me if speaking during a grapple was allowed I would answer yes. (And I probably would not even mention that it does not appear on the list of allowed actions, because it is blatantly obvious.)

However, the speak description does not say that you can always speak. If you for some reason is prevented from speaking obviously you cannot speak.


Speak

In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn.

And then grappling does not list free actions as a possibility.


If You’re Grappling

When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions.

Or even worse in the Rules Compendium.


Regardless of who started the grapple, while you’re grappling, you can perform only the following maneuvers.

We have inferred that this does not include speaking, but you might meet someone who would insist on a different literal interpretation of RAW. That person would of course be wrong, which was my point with listing the absurdity in the first place.




By this, it seems that the flurry of blows would work with attacks, wherein you take a -4 to hit and make an attack, as the ability does infer that you can full attack with it, and that is an attack. You could maybe even argue that the grabpple check to deal damage qualifies as an attack. However, other checks, including moving the grapple, pinning, escaping a pin, and the like, don't follow that line of reasoning, and would seem both not allowed by the wording of flurry of blows, nor allowed by the text of grapple.

Such a hybrid does not make much sense.
Either you base the number of grapple checks allowed on the number of attacks that could normally be made during a full-attack (excluding natural weapon attacks, TWF and MWF)
OR
you go by the strict RAW reading that says grapple checks equal to number of attacks derived from BAB only, whether you are FoB'ing with Haste.


Sorry if I get pleasure in this. It's so rare that I have a solid, cogent argument against you, Silvanos.


I am always happy to be a source of pleasure, but then I am sure I have made other posts that would make you squeal of joy if you are so inclined. :smallamused:

May I suggest that you make a collection (Instant Pleasure Collection?) of all my errors, so you can read them over and over again while laughing at my incompetence?

[Griffin131]

for a start i dont think you get to ad your unarmed damage damage to the damage of the armor spike, so it stays at just 1d6+5.
As stated, you were wrong about that.


now if the figher has taken a potion of enlarge, and wasted a feat on weapon specalisation, then his damage would end up at 1d8+7, for a average of 11.5
That makes it ~13 damage average.


assuming 3 points of difference in grapple scores, his first attack would hit 65% of the time, and the second one 40% of the time, that would give a DPR of 12.075
You do realize that grapple scores mean diddly when youre attacking in a grapple, right? The section that says "Attack your opponent" mentions nothing about grapple checks.


the monk is also enlarget, and he has taken improved natural attack, ending up with 3d8+5, average 18.5
he hits tvice at 35%, and one at 10%, for a DPR of 14.8
Assuming you have an 18 str - as said before. Good luck with your high saves now, because thats the only way Gia's monk beat my Will save - he had a higher Wis. Plus, youre probably pinned, so cant damage me anyway.


well, level 11 is also where the monk gets a third attack at full BAB from grapple, and imo just getting the fighter into a grapple is a victory for the monk, since it means he wont be using a 2handet weapon, something that would make him do a lot more damage than his armor spikes can do.
Right, so you engaging me in normal melee, and making me attack you to defeat you is a worse option than grappling me and making me pin and attack you to defeat you... why?


yes the figher has a lot more feat, but the monk does get quite a few bonus feats of his own, and can even ignore the prerequisites on them.
that means he will get the usefull combination of combat reflexes and improved trip.
If you'll look, so did my grapple+umd fighter.


yes he will proberly do a bit less damage than a fighter, but as i have said several times before, then its something i belive is compensated by greater speed, better skills and better saves.
and keeping the saves up wont impair the AC.
They will if you have to sacrifice for strength... unless youre buying items to beef AC and saves up - which is possible, just not within the "constraints" that Gia put out.


better skills yes, the monk also have evasion, the superior damage of the rogue is very situational, and if first the rogue gets flanked then i think his attackers not getting any bonus is a small comfort.
and as long as the saves have been kept up, then the monk has some sort of trapfinding skills as well.
Grappling isnt situational, but sneak attack is. GJ! And simply eating every trap you see isnt a good means of scouting - traps typically make noise, rendering your stealthyness entirely moot.


well when i considder grappling, then its often to deny a enemy some of his damage, by making sure he cant use his weapon, or to force him to stop attacking someone, like fx a rogue or a unbuffed wizard.
The former I can see... the latter doesnt exist, so not sure how you could grapple it.


When the RAW doesnt make sense, then i will start to considder if its a mistake, and someone else did come with the explanation that its proberly cut&paste error from 3.0, where potions of enlarge was more expensive.
when you also compared it to the price guidelines of potions, then i find enough justification to continue buying my potions at 50 gp.
Houserules are worthless in considering how viable a class is.

[Rutee]

[quote]Q: Can I initiate Maneuvers in a Grapple?
A: No.

Doesn't specific text trump general?

[Azerian Kelimon]

[QUOTE=Lord_Silvanos;4344958]

Doesn't specific text trump general?

Yes, but no maneuver specifies that.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Doesn't specific text trump general?

Could you quote the specific text or give a page reference then, please?

[Rutee]

You're the one who mentioned maneuvers that are for use in a grapple, not I. The thought just occurs to me, "If the move says it works in a grapple, doesn't it work, period"? By the logic you seem to be using, Freedom of Movement says that you can't be grappled, but that doesn't trump the grapple rules.

[Azerian Kelimon]

You're the one who mentioned maneuvers that are for use in a grapple, not I. The thought just occurs to me, "If the move says it works in a grapple, doesn't it work, period"? By the logic you seem to be using, Freedom of Movement says that you can't be grappled, but that doesn't trump the grapple rules.

See, there are no maneuvers that say they can be initiated in a grapple, which is what differentiates them from FoM.

[Rutee]

Then why would it be positted that "Even if a maneuver says it can be used in a grapple, it can't be"?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Then why would it be positted that "Even if a maneuver says it can be used in a grapple, it can't be"?

Because probably someone thought of using Iron Heart Surge or another boost to come out on top. Since a boost is a swift action, it had to be ruled up.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

You're the one who mentioned maneuvers that are for use in a grapple, not I. The thought just occurs to me, "If the move says it works in a grapple, doesn't it work, period"?

I cannot recall any general text that says "Maneuvers can be initiated in a grapple".

I cannot recall any maneuver that says "I can be initiated in a grapple". (That would be a specific rule that trumps the general rules, for that maneuver.)

However, there are specific grapple stances, but they could be initiated out of grapple, so that does not prove anything.


By the logic you seem to be using, Freedom of Movement says that you can't be grappled, but that doesn't trump the grapple rules.

You must have misunderstood something I said or made your own assumptions along the way. :smallamused:

[Charity]

I am always happy to be a source of pleasure, but then I am sure I have made other posts that would make you squeal of joy if you are so inclined. :smallamused:

May I suggest that you make a collection (Instant Pleasure Collection?) of all my errors, so you can read them over and over again while laughing at my incompetence?

I got popcorn :smallwink:

I fear it might not have a run time sufficient to open the bag... can you loop it?

We luvs ya really Silv

[Rutee]

No, I misunderstood nothing. You posited that a maneuver that was designed to be used in a grapple wouldn't be usable in a grapple, if we accepted the list as all inclusive.


Interpreting the list of actions in a grapple to be all exhaustive would not only spell trouble for martial adepts, who would not be able to use maneuvers in a grapple (not even those designed to be used in a grapple), but it would also be contradicting itself, since speaking does not appear on the list.

I questioned whether or not the common belief was that specific rules trump general, under the understanding that there were in fact maneuvers that said they could be used in a grapple, as that was the position you posited. Perhaps I quoted the wrong text, but I focused on a position you stated. You could argue that designing the move to work in a grapple doesn't necessarily mean they included text that allowed it, but as that wasn't a specific exception..

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

No, I misunderstood nothing. You posited that a maneuver that was designed to be used in a grapple wouldn't be usable in a grapple, if we accepted the list as all inclusive.



I questioned whether or not the common belief was that specific rules trump general, under the understanding that there were in fact maneuvers that said they could be used in a grapple, as that was the position you posited. Perhaps I quoted the wrong text, but I focused on a position you stated. You could argue that designing the move to work in a grapple doesn't necessarily mean they included text that allowed it, but as that wasn't a specific exception..

The duality of the use of used, both as used as initiated is what lead to this misunderstanding.

I should have been more careful with the wording in my initial post, but since we talked about actions I thought it would have been clear, (then again the use of maneuvers in a grapple was not the main point).



can you loop it?

It might be dangerous. We would not want anyone to contract a brain aneurysm from too much pleasure... :smallwink:
(See the Hyenas in Roger Rabbit for a reference case)

[Charity]

No, I misunderstood nothing.

It burns!

Just to see if one can quote in white.

Silvanos now I am imagining that scene from scanners.

Apparantly not

pop goes the weasel

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Silvanos now I am imagining that scene from scanners.


An Illithid community favourite I might add. :smallwink:

[Animefunkmaster]

Grappling does not explicitly say "You may execute a full attack action".

However it only limits it in regards to fighting with two weapons, and in rules of the game it clearly shows a full attack action with natural weapons (perhaps I did not make it clear, I was attempting to illustrate that a full attack action in a grapple is possible and it is even in the 'rules of the game' section of the wotc site).


Check the wording on FoB: It explicitly requires you to use a Full Attack Action. It says if you have multiple natural weapons (FoB isn't a natural weapon; It's a Class Feature/Special Attack that grants additional attacks with a natural weapon)

I disagree with some of this.


A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.

First of all this is not a special action, or a special attack (This does not say: Flurry of blows is a full round action, this says it is used in conjunction with a full attack action). This is an extra attack when using a full attack action.

A full attack action is a full round action described as the following (under full round actions in the srd):


Full Attack

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

Again, since the grapple rules do not limit one from making a full attack action (in this regard) when using the 'Attack Your Opponent' option, I do not see what the trouble is. Something just dawned on me, if anyone is trying to argue that you can make multiple actions in a grapple (actions that are listed as attack actions) based on flurry of blows extra attack, they are mistaken. Those actions are specifically BAB only, however Attack Your Opponent does not hinder you from making a full attack aside from using two weapon fighting


And they would ignore the crusader because...?

I think I am missing your logic. No one is ignoring the Crusader, that was just a simple example. I am simply saying that moving an enemy in a grapple/pin is a good source of AoOs, and a reasonable tactic for a monk. Since you can only move at half speed, the more movement speed you have, the more distance, the more AoOs (you could drag them around the party and let everyone get a whack at them, especially the rogues). I am just saying the speed bonus does have some synergy with grappling.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

However it only limits it in regards to fighting with two weapons, and in rules of the game it clearly shows a full attack action with natural weapons (perhaps I did not make it clear, I was attempting to illustrate that a full attack action in a grapple is possible and it is even in the 'rules of the game' section of the wotc site).

The RotG article is not up to date on this subject (at best). You may only use one natural weapon in a grapple just like you cannot use TWF or MWF.
If this was not clear from the PHB, it has been clarified by the RC and possibly the FAQ.

[Animefunkmaster]

Q: Can I initiate Maneuvers in a Grapple?
A: No.



Can a martial adept (Tome of Battle) initiate a
maneuver or change a stance while grappling? While
pinned?
The grapple rules provide a list of actions available to a
grappling character, but it’s obviously not an exhaustive list. (It
doesn’t, for example, mention “speaking” as an option.) It’s
really intended more as a description of how grappling alters
many normal actions available to characters (such as attacking
and moving). Thus, the DM must apply a bit of his own
common sense when adjudicating any grapple situation.
Any maneuver that involves an attack may be used while
grappling, as long as it’s made with an unarmed strike, natural
weapon, or light weapon against another character you are
grappling (PHB 156).
It’s easiest to rule that other maneuvers and stances can be
initiated normally while grappling unless something intrinsic to
the maneuver indicates otherwise. (For example, a maneuver
that requires movement can’t normally be initiated while in a
grapple because the grappling character can’t move freely.)
Many maneuvers and stances are designed for use by grappling
characters, and it seems counterintuitive to restrict those
options. A grappling character is somewhat limited in his
physical mobility, but to prevent him from initiating a
maneuver or stance seems unreasonably limiting.
The Sage strongly recommends that a pinned character not
be allowed to initiate a maneuver or stance. The rules clearly
state that “to initiate a maneuver or stance, you must be able to
move” (Tome of Battle, page 38), which suggests that a pinned
character shouldn’t be able to accomplish this.

From the FAQ.

[Rutee]

Look at your SRD section for a moment. Notice the wording;


"<Specific Exceptions>. But you may take a full round action to get your extra attacks"
It does not read
"You may take a full attack action as normal, except for <Specific Exceptions>"

This is significant because the second bit of supporting text is more elegant, shorter, /and/ more permissive. While WotC's standard of writing is hardly the most excellent on the planet (One can hardly blame them, as they have a lot of product), that seems a bit more likely to me as the RAW.


I disagree with some of this.
If FoB is a natural weapon, perhaps you can tell me what it's specific damage is? (It isn't, it's an attack adder)

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

From the FAQ.

Yes, you are quoting me a bit out of context so it may be hard to see, but that was more or less the point I was trying to make.

[Animefunkmaster]

Look at your SRD section for a moment. Notice the wording;

"<Specific Exceptions>. But you may take a full round action to get your extra attacks"
It does not read
"You may take a full attack action as normal, except for <Specific Exceptions>"


I agree with this. It actually doesn't specify what type of action you may take, just that you can't use two weapon fighting and can't attack with multiple natural attacks (Silvanos is indeed correct, FAQ clarifies the natural attack, and I did quote that just to illustrate your point to those who may have not have seen it). Since there isn't specific text limiting full attack actions nor granting them, this gray area is left to the decision of the dm.


If FoB is a natural weapon, perhaps you can tell me what it's specific damage is? (It isn't, it's an attack adder)

I am not entirely sure what you are getting at, with Flurry of Blows being a natural weapon. But it is an extra attack when making a full attack action. It doesn't grant an extra action in a grapple because the text specifically uses the words Base Attack Bonus (although I think we are all in agreement if it just allowed these actions to be performed as an attack action).


she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round.

Grapple lets you fight with unarmed strikes, light weapons, and natural attacks. Your unarmed strike is one of these and a light monk weapon would also qualify. So, Flurry of blows may be used in a grapple (assuming your dm lets you take a full attack action under the "attack your opponent" option) with light monk weapons or unarmed strike.

[ericgrau]

The rules explicitly say you can use multiple attacks in a grapple. It says "(at a successively lower base attack bonus)" but this explanation is also used for multiple attacks in other places. The rules don't give an explicit method nor the action (full-round, standard, w/e) required to get multiple attacks during a grapple, so I'd have to presume a full attack action. Or a standard action to get a single attack, as normal. Furthermore, the grapple rules explicitly prohibit fighting with two weapons, and the need to even do such implies that someone might otherwise use two-weapon fighting to gain an extra attack during a grapple. So most likely flurry of blows, haste, etc., etc. may be used for an extra attack, just like any full attack.

I am gonna have to agree that the guide is pretty weak. I mean, the monk is good at hitting the baddies' back row, true. But the guide is rather disorganized and seems more like a mish-mosh of ideas than anything. This thread's page-count probably has more to do with the title, which often attracts teen angst. Not the kind of people you want to be discussing with.

[MeklorIlavator]

Not really, the length has to do with the fact that the thread puts forward many flawed ideas, which many have pointed out, and yet the author stands by them. In fact, if you look at almost any of the longer posts, they are either someone poking holes in the theory, or the author attempting to respond to them. Also, many are posting snarky replies because this is not the first time the author has proposed this idea, and many are tired of his opinions, as they grow wearisome, especially since he seem unable to admit he was wrong.

[Arbitrarity]

Aha, now I can move fairly clearly.

Flurry of Blows requires a full attack action. You cannot preform a "Full attack action" in a grapple. You may preform an attack action, or multiple attack actions, at lower BAB each. Not a full attack action. Therefore, flurry cannot be used in a grapple.

[Animefunkmaster]

You cannot preform a "Full attack action" in a grapple. You may preform an attack action, or multiple attack actions, at lower BAB each. Not a full attack action.

Sight your source. This is the debate I was having a few posts up. The rules do not make it clear whether you can make a full attack action or a single attack action under the "Attack you Opponent" section except that it prohibits twf and attacking with multiple Natural Attacks. Since there isn't enough raw one way or another (the multiple actions at a lower bab is in regards to actions specifically said to be attack actions when in a grapple), it seems the resident dm must step in and make a decision whether someone may make a full attack action under the "attack your opponent" option (I think we are all in agreement that yes, he should be able to. Much the same way haste should work).

[Sir Giacomo]

And hi again,

first of all, sorry - I'll not be able to answer all of your posts or comment on them. Repeat your posts (please do not PM, my box could overflow...) in as short and most easily-answerable way possible.

Currently I identify two major issues brought up against the Joker concept:

1) The use of UMD.
You know my position. It should be left to gametesting to see whether it is really so useless/inefficient as many of you maintain. In my view it is a typical, almost hysterical reaction of wizard fans when someone enters their turf. "I cast invisbility and who needs the rogue/scout/whoever". "See me use xy and an octupus (!?) familiar and be a better grappler than the monk". But the monk or other non-caster all of a sudden also using spells? "OH NOS! SACRILEGE!"
This is really ridiculous. Note: the casters are CASTERS. Not MAGIC MONOPOLISTS. EVeryone can use magic in the DD3.5 universe. And it is made available also with magic items (and UMD for access to scrolls and wands). Learn to live with it or play a different game and houserule.:smallwink:

Some more remarks:
Allegedly I say that the monk makes greater use of magic items (courtesy Kurald Galain for spreading yet another half-truth). The point of course is that I believe that the monk makes best use of SOME spells, while other classes could make best use of OTHER spells.
I still do not get Talic's calculations on wbl. There is a simple table in the DMG p. 135; everyone on the optimisation boards uses that as a guideline. It is suggested by the DMG as a basis for balance and power level. So what is the problem here?

2) That grapple thing.
Well, even Lord Silvanos struggling to get the ruling right here? Wow, I am impressed. But it is quite simple imo. Just to summarise:

From the FAQ, p.20:
Can a monk make disarm, sunder, and trip attacks
during her flurry of blows? What about grapple checks?
What about bull rushes, overruns, or other special combat
maneuvers?
As long as every attack is made with one of the monk’s
special weapons (that is, weapons allowed as part of a flurry),
the monk can perform any special attack that takes the place of
a normal attack. She’s free to disarm, sunder, trip, and grapple
to her heart’s content.
She couldn’t bull rush or overrun (since those don’t use
special monk weapons), nor could she aid another (which
requires a standard action) or feint (which requires a move
action).

Now what this shows me again is two things:
a) The monk makes the best grappler in the game (as I said) and
b) Some posters here go "the monk SUUUUUCKS" without even knowing how grappling works (and here I was to believe that noone would surpass Solo's belief that for grappling you have to do a normal melee attack roll, revealed after he maintained for pages in another thread that grappling is not really a great tactics). Funny indeed.
My hunch, though, is somehow, that the doubters will remain unconvinced.

Now on to two longer posts which I believe raised various very good criticism and suggestions - although I do not agree with all of them.


I have a vague memory that you're actually right that the monk can use Flurry in a grapple, but I can't find where the rules actually allow it. Could you point me to a quote?

See above.

The scout/skill monkey role? Hmmm.

Well - skill monkey role would take it too far. The monk DOES have quite a few skills to choose from and specialise in case of a skill-poor party, but he makes a great scout.

Some of the arguments against you are being iterated in a very sloppy, repetitive, poorly-explained way; yes. They are tossed about as "obvious" statements with no evidence to back them up. But you do the same thing ... a lot, honestly. The Flurry & Grapple question above is one example, and it's even an example where I think you're ultimately right, but I still say your "evidence" for it that you've posted so far is rather shaky.

Well - I would be surprised, if by now in this thread or even in the guide I would not have made any mistakes. The problem is the "sloppy, repetitive, poorly-explained" comments so far (and I would add: often not even funny) failed to pinpoint some real issues. But I think you raise some good ones in the next sections.

Well, you're ignoring the part where people were saying, all along, "A PvP fight is not really going to settle the question." And the part where you only had a chance in the Balor fight because you went with an archer, which is universally accepted as one of the stronger options for a Core-only fighter. Being able to make an OK archer does not redeem some of the other weak aspects of a Core Fighter.

It does not redeem them, true. It only shows where the strengths of the fighter class are and what he can do best: doing combat that is feat-intensive and then be awesome in it.
An archer also makes a good anti-caster, since many of the good attacking spells are close or medium range. But it's highly setting-specific.

You're right, that was lame to do without permission and without taking the time to put your writing in ideal format.

AT LONG LAST! You, Sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. Btw, though, that thread appears to die a well-deserved, lukewarm death.:smallwink:

Now I think you're jumping to conclusions. Some of us are quite upset that casters are stronger than non-casters in 3e, because we like playing non-casters.

As much as I like to believe that - why then this often emotional reactions? There is even right now another thread sprung up here by Vael with the sole purpose to make fun of mine.
This is not the reaction of a player who desperately looks around within the existing rules and to ideas of others to see what can be done about a class he likes to play. It is about making fun of people who like to play that class imo.

This is the "shaky" evidence I referred to earlier ...

Hope I remedied it now (see above, again).

(Edited to demonstrate what I assume this statement was claiming.) More shakiness. Can you back this claim up with statistics, for those of us who aren't sure whether it's true and don't want to do the math?

Sure.
It is the faster iterative reduction for the fighter's grapple checks which gives the monk a good pin chance even unbuffed.
Say, at level 10 which often is used as an example so far:
Monk has grapple check of +14/+14/+9. Fighter has +17/+12. (same STR is assumed).
The fighter will likely start the pin, if it's his turn first for full grapple round. If it's the monk's turn, though...
+14/+14/+9 vs +17 means the monk has to beat on average a score of 27, which is a 32% in the first case (a tie going with 30% prob to the monk), a 31% in the second case and a 7% in the last. This yields around (too lazy to use calclus, so out of my head): 0.32+(0.31*0,68)+(0.32*0.06)=0.56 = 56% chance of monk pinning the fighter.
Now, this chance to pin rises dramatically the moment the monk buffs while the fighter will not - this is likely imo because the monk is far superior in the hide/spot game.

Hmmm. Typical Fighters and Barbarians have significantly higher STR than your Monk build. (They don't need WIS and CON as badly, mind you.) And a dedicated Barbarian grappling build will have lots of damage on his grapple attacks via magic Spiked Armor.

True. However, where are the advantages of the monk?
- the spiked armour added damage only applies in the initial grapple check (read the armour spike description). When another starts the grapple, the armour spike no longer applies.
- the barbarian can get fatigued after his STR rage. And even with the rage until higher level, he only gets +2 more
- the monk gets improved grapple as a bonus feat without prerequisites. This is golden for enlarge effects, since fighters and barbarians need to have a starting DEX of 15 not to lose the feat when enlarged.
- the monk has higher base damage which stacks greatly with size increases and the monk's belt. Meanwhile, until level 11 (when the monk's belt is avaiable), the barbarian and fighter when enlarged only do 1d3! base.

More too-quickly-explained "evidence." Still, I agree with this point ... IF it's a Monk build with a high AC. Which yours most certainly is NOT. Lots of traps attack you with attack rolls, you know.

Now that is a good point. Hmmm. Lord Khaine's build has better combat stats and less skills and no UMD - that is where the idea of simply triggering traps is based on.
Will avoid trap triggering with the Joker monk!

Traditionally the "skill monkey role" of the party values trapmonkeying much more than speed. I don't know if it should. Probably extremely campaign-dependent. But if you're trying to present the Monk as viably filling the "Rogue" role of the party, you'll have to start by attacking these more fundamental assumptions about what that role in the party is supposed to do.

Yep, it's tricky. The monk, rogue and ranger all are the stealthy classes in the game, with their respective combat ways to make use of stealthinesss (grapple, sneak, missile).
While the rogue can find traps and do more skills, the ranger is best outdoors, the monk is best to combat and survive casters. So it depends on what the group expects.

Assuming you can find them in divine form. Yes, they are divine spells, but the SRD seems to place them in the category of "scrolls that you should assume will be found in arcane form, since finding a high-level Cleric making/selling scrolls and having the specific Domain you need is pretty rare." Totally depends on how lenient your DM is with "magic shops," and I think most DMs will fall in the "not lenient enough" category.

The rules also assume that divine casters can fall and thus there is an atonement spell. It is the basis on which we all argue - otherwise balance and build ideas make hardly sense, if we simply assume "in this campaign you cannot buy magic items" or "in this campaign, casters do not have access to metamagic feats".
The spells exist in arcane and divine versions, they are available in wands and scrolls (the tables given are only random treasure tables). So the only guideline is the availabiltiy according to city size and gold piece value.

His tacit point was: And yet, with all the hundreds of Fighter builds out there, you rarely see one utilizing this UMD ability. If it were really such a great strategy, wouldn't you think it would have caught on by now?

Hmmm. The same goes for pun-pun or the funny word and the wish builds. Basically, at one point or another, someone will come up with the idea. The astounding thing is that on the one hand quite a few comment: ah of course the monk will be powerful with UMD, since it's so ultra-powerful, and on the other no-one really thought about using in a build cross-class for a non-caster combatant before. Which WAS the case with morph or diplomancer builds.

Again, you need to read between the lines and attack more fundamental underlying assumptions that are differences between your opinion and others' experiences. People who are arguing with you don't seem to think that, playing D&D, you usually get good enough "encounter control" to be able to spend a couple rounds buffing just before a fight. (I don't, btw, understand why they can't just say that to avoid repeating the same old arguments.)
So a lot of your build rests on this. How well does maxed H/MS/Spot/Listen actually allow you to be aware of fights before they start, and control when they start? I think it should work pretty well ... and yet my own experience matches the common opinion better. I don't understand the discrepency between theory and practice on this point, and I would appreciate if anyone can explain it to me. It would make my stealthy characters more effective.

Yes - that is exactly the point and the one thing to discuss, not whether tactics to withdraw at the right time are viable or not.
Will the skillset of stealthy characters give them advantages in actual play as envisioned by the rules?
Well, unfortunately once again the playing scene appears to be dominated by a style of play where a party rushes in to meet the opponents in open battle (with the scout at best clearing away traps before, hence the rogue preference).
A consequence could also be that hardly any DMs appear to bother about spot and listen checks of the opponents which alerts them way before that the 20ft move dwarf clanks into their direction. Similarly, they will harass a monk player for "taking too long to buff" while he can easily in 1-2 rounds of extra buffs catch up with them due to higher move.
As Reel On, Love, put it further up: he hardly has any experience with encounters as having surprise on either side. So of course he discards a stealth strategy as irrelevant!
Maybe it is also influenced by tabletop play where many simply cannot afford the sheer space of combat area to simulate a dungeon or hall that is 100s of feet long.
(hence, btw, also a possbile explanation for the old fallacy about archery being inferior combat tactics - in a group I once played the archer never actually got to pepper the enemy with arrows since the rooms were so small that immediately melee started and the enemies got cover.)

People's experience also seems to indicate that they rarely face monsters of below their party's level. If they're fighting 3-5 monsters at the same time, those monsters are usually about the same CR as the party level. If they are fighting a solo encounter, it's usually 2-3 higher CR than the party level.
This seems to run contrary to your assumptions about what CRs of monsters you will be expected to grapple with your Monk build. If you want people to respect your grappling ability, you have to convince them that you will indeed be facing the CR of monsters that you expect.


Now this is a very insightful observation. Yes, this may be the case - many posters, in particular the wizard fans apparently play in groups with much higher CR monsters thrown at them for their level.
The reasons are probably twofold:
1) they play most of the time outside the core rules, with the latest brand new super xy spell or z feat combo and thus the normal CR standards may break down. Hence also their reluctance to argue in terms of core builds (in particular when discussing balance and maintaining allegedly the core rules are even more broken than everything else, ah the irony!).
2) another point is one I often made already on these boards in that play is often geared towards fitting the caster players' whims and them being touched only with soft gloves by their DMs (because in particular the arcane casters are so fragile, so there is rather only binary threat to them: dead or 100% nicely alive and winning).
The true extent of how completely they have distanced themselves from what the core rules actually assume imo was shown to me when Reel On, Love once posted that a simple invisibiltiy/flying/enervation combo was enough to win consistently vs all CR7-9 encounters (which I proved easily not to be the case, since almost all of these CR monsters have access to flying, concealment spells, offensive spells of their own, missile attack, OR the clear advantage in terms of stealth and being able to surprise).

Nobody is going to be dumb enough, after using Escape Artist, to try to just walk away from you, and let you grapple them again. They'll Tumble, or (if they have a high Touch AC and Mobility) just walk away from you and you'll miss them when you try to re-grapple, or they'll just whack you, or they'll cast a spell (with Defensive Casting). So downplaying Escape Artist as completely useless is not an argument most people agree with.

Well, with the tumble method you outlined you only prevent the AoO, not the fact that the monk simply uses a move on his turn and grapples again (doing damage). And mind you, not many classes or even creatures have high enough tumble to avoid the AoO.
So basically the monk (or any grappler) moves and does damage every round, while the rogue/whoever uses escape artist and moves. Looks like a losing game to me.
Believe me. I tried, and I had to learn it the hard way with a rogue I once played.

You also seem to assume that most opponents will have the same Reach as you, or lesser reach when you're Enlarged. This is a bad assumption to have so universally. Lots of enemy melee NPCs will have reach weapons. (Yes, I know you have a spiked chain, but flurry, grapple, and a lot of your other tricks don't work with it.) Lots of monsters are big enough to have natural reach. If you get Enlarged, so do the NPCs ... and the monsters might still be bigger than you, quite likely.

The problem is that enemies with reach weapons and even natural reach attack will not hurt the monk who simply tumbles and then attacks.
Vs enemies with reach weapons (even the super spiked chain fighters), the monk simply tumbles close to the weapon wielder and grapples. The reach weapon (which is never a light weapon) has just gone useless.
And some of even the large monsters that are quadrupeds have only a reach of 5ft.

I've seen quite a few STR-based melee builds with Dex 15. They like their Combat Reflexes-based AoOs.
Or they could have 13, and be Enlarged by some other process (Righteous Might, or being a Half-Giant ...)

Good find! Yes, righteous might does not give a DEX penalty - but it's much, much more expensive and only available to non-UMDers at level 15 with rings of spell storing.

Most dungeons have lowish ceilings. Especially the parts of them that are trapped, like doorways. And not all traps are triggered by pressure plates on the floor. And how is your party going to follow you after you bypass a trap by jumping past it?

Good point. But it's still an advantage. Most traps have ways to be switched off- might be just on the other side of that chasm...
And low ceilings btw mean the caster defense of flying around is not that safe anymore...:smallbiggrin:

If I recall correctly, a number of those ways were rather controversial, and led to their own Monk-debate threads. Like whether magical gauntlets were a good solution.

Yep. That gauntlet thing. Lord Silanos has some good ruling on this, including some quotes from all kinds of rules sources.
I guess it was that you cannot flurry with gauntlets since they are a subgroup of unarmed attacks, but not unarmed strikes. It should be fulrriable by RAI, but the FAQ explicitly forbade it. Still, at least you do the great monk unarmed damage with gauntlets, although you are not automatically proficient with them.
To sidestep the issue, I put up the idea of holy sword wands and pearl of power for enhancement bonus before.

Again, there seems to be a fundamental difference between your experience and others'. In this case, it's "how much of a problem is it when a character wastes a round or two buffing himself before he can be effective at fighting?" And most people seem to think it's a big problem. You don't seem to ... or you're relying on "encounter timing control" (as I talked about earlier) even more than I thought.

Yes. What many want to try to look incredible this way is that you do not need that high of a UMD to make already great use of it. Magic is cheap - that''s I guess what enrages the wizard fans most. They hate the UMD skill, like the diplomacy skill that can even solve encounters without magic.

By the way, I haven't seen you respond to the Table of Expendable Wealth that got posted. It seemed like a very interesting argument to me, and you seem to be recommending spending a lot more on UMD-items than that Table would allow you to use.

I did by now. It's nonsense in my view. DMG p. 135 is all you need, and all the maxing boards so far used. Talic's calculations would actually allow the monk more consumable items (and at the same time he tries to somehow limit the monk to that added amount to construct some argument against my build out of thin air), but I guess that is not needed.

:smallconfused: I don't remember that. Core only? In one round, move and flurry? I don't think that's possible, shuriken/sai attacks aside.

The methods I listed are (not necessarily in this order)
1) Mount moves, monk flurries
2) Intelligent item dim doors, monk flurries
3) Fellow PC caster dim doors, monk flurries
4) morph and pounce (not used due to suspicions of cheese, but that is apparently what the rules assumed would make the flurry viable for the monk to combine with his great move)

14 is fine, for a secondary stat at Level 1. But you don't have any score above 14, and you can't afford to keep boosting all of the stats that are important to a Monk.

This monk is supposed to be broadly good at a number of things and fulfill thus various of the PHB monk roles. The area where he is more "specialised" in is defeating casters.

Dimension Door. Escape Artist (& Tumble).

You still need to make a concentration check, even with dimension door to escape a grapple. And dimension door did not help you AVOID the grapple - you still took the damage from it. Escape artist and tumble: see above.

I think he was talking about after Level 8, when you're supposed to be doing something besides grapple.

And as I outlined in the build, after level 8 is where overall tactics change and grapple becomes less and less of an option (although vs casters it's alive and kicking, in particular when AMF is around).

You're going to burn 700 gp on a Scroll of Divine Power every battle after Level 8? :smallconfused:

Not at levels 8-13 (except in very rare unusual circumstances). But 14& up? Why not? And it is not 700 gp for a scroll, but rather 450 per wand use :smallcool:

Or not? That's one thing that's confused me about your guide all along. In what percentage of battles are you expecting to have which buffs, more or less?

In almost all of them. It starts with enlarge, then probably also some kind of bless (with bead), and/or ability buffs, heroism, and eventually stuff like holy sword and divine power.

AC 23 at Level 10 is in no way "high." It's pretty low.

Yes, have to do something about that with buffs or some other great idea. Level 10 is still a "stealth" level, though. And with full defense, the monk can at least tumble through enemy ranks at AC 29...:smallsmile:

... since it didn't care about Balance, Climb, Jump, ...

Balance is overrated - I still do not know what this whole grease spell issue is about. Reflex save, monk then can jump out of area (or, I guess to a 5ft step as a full-round action). Losing the DEX bonus is tough, but will there always be a rogue around to help the wizard? Similarly, if there is a rogue on the monk's side, it appears much better imo (flank, stun, grapple - the rogue and monk make the best team imo).
Climb - yes, that's a bit lacking. Probably I'm hoping for fly coming up eventually. Hmmm. Will think on that.
Jump. Is already in. Big time (thanks also to move and tumbling synergy).

Well, Draz74, thanks for the comments, looking forward to more of them.
And now Turcano:


If you want constructive criticism with a minimum of snark, I'll take a shot at it.

The main, overarching problem with your build is that you're biting off way more than you can chew. You're trying to fill three or four roles (depending on whether you count scouting and trapfinding as one or two roles), none of which the monk was really built for, and so the build is subpar at all of them. Jacks-of-all-trades are not where it's at in D&D. This is reflected in your starting stats: four 14s is suboptimal no matter what class you're playing.

The problem is: the moment this build starts to specialise, it will take power away from its purpose to make life difficult for casters (say, it will become stronger but dumber and thus have less skills and ways to get UMD, Spellcraft AND the stealth four skills set). But definitely there are variants of this (like one following the lord_khaine school). Will post some soon into the guide way up.

Grappling isn't the best idea for monks in the first place (yes, I know, it's one of the monk's combat styles, but remember that rangers get two-weapon fighting as a combat style); you have a medium attack bonus and mediocre Strength, so anything your size or bigger with a higher strength score is probably going to out-grapple you. Grappling is a two-way street, and you really don't want to be on the receiving end of it. Also, I have no idea where you got the idea that flurry of blows translates to multiple grapple checks; flurry of blows is a full attack action, not separate standard actions (otherwise you could flurry and move in the same turn), and initiating a grapple check of any kind is a standard action.

See above. And the original guide. At levels 1-8 it is a good tactics.

Scouting really isn't the monk's forte, either. Unless you boost your Intelligence and thereby hamstring some other needed stat, you simply don't have enough skill points to go around. Movement speed is only necessary if you're running away, and that's something you really shouldn't be doing as a scout (not being detected in the first place should be your primary goal).

If scouting is not the monk's forte, whose is? Movement speed is essential for running away, getting cover, concealment, controlling the encounter and actually coming back fast enough.

The monk is really not made to handle traps, either. You don't have class skills for dealing with traps, or class features (which even the barbarian has), so your only options for dealing with a trap is to either set them off deliberately and pray that your saves or touch AC get you through, or to bypass the trap (assuming you know it's even there) in a way that screws the rest of your party (unless the trapmaker was kind enough to leave a shutoff switch on the other side).

Yes, the trap"triggering" part is not that good for the monk, I admit that. At least not for the monk I posted. Others can be built easily to do that.

And the monk's use of UMD... well, you're outclassed by an expert half your level. And you're spending way too much money for your magic items, especially when they go fizzle (which they will, because your UMD isn't high enough for the majority of the game). And if you can only afford to buff yourself every other or every third encounter... well, I don't have to tell you how that's going end.

You fail to see various issues:
1) You only need UMD of +19 for the wand buffs. So, the expert getting a higher bonus is not that much of an issue. He gets it faster, though (but does not have as many feats as the monk to spare, though)
2) The expert does not have class abilities to speak of to synergise as well with the buffs.
3) The magic items will not "go fizzle". They are not consumed when you fail to use them. You can try as often as you like until it activates (only on a "1" you have to wait a day, so best get a spare one).
4) The build can buff every encounter. (once again: 140 until level 10, so 1000 first level spell castings until then).

In essence, you're trying to make the monk into something it isn't. The monk is supposed to be an opportunistic fighter, providing flanking and other support where it is needed; this is why the monk has movement speed bonuses and high defense. You're trying to make him into half-brawler, half-rogue, and the results aren't pretty.

In your eyes maybe. He does exactly what you wish it to have (and more besides):
- he is an opportunistic fighter
- he can provide flanking
- he can provide all kinds of support (from backup spellcasting, backup spellcraft, all the way to scouting and useful items boosting everyone's spells on occasions)

Well, once again enough for now.

- Giacomo

[Kurald Galain]

Yeah, that falls solidly in TLDR territory. But then, you didn't bring anything new to the table in your last dozen posts either.

I wonder if you use the same strategy on your DM - keep repeating yourself in the hopes that he'll give in after the 100th time and give you some bonus item?

[Frosty]

:smallconfused: I don't remember that. Core only? In one round, move and flurry? I don't think that's possible, shuriken/sai attacks aside.

The methods I listed are (not necessarily in this order)
1) Mount moves, monk flurries
2) Intelligent item dim doors, monk flurries
3) Fellow PC caster dim doors, monk flurries
4) morph and pounce (not used due to suspicions of cheese, but that is apparently what the rules assumed would make the flurry viable for the monk to combine with his great move)


I have issues with this. Getting an Intelligent item is highly dependent on the DM and the campaign. Not reliable. A fellow PC typically has better things to do than the use a spell to Dim Door you around. Besides, this means the caster is now also right next to the enemy, at the front lines!! As for a mount, do you know the rules for mounted fighting? You can't do a full-attack or flurry if your mount moves more than 5ft. You don't have enough "time" because even though it's your mount moving, it still takes up your time so you don't have time to make a lot of attacks.

Outside of Core, you should take Travel Devotion to be able to move as a Swift action for a certain amount of time per day.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Some points I noticed. You can't Full Attack after a mount moves. It's move takes place during your turn, not before. Talic's list was made up by taking the estimated encounter reward for each level, and subtracting WBL. The result is how much money you are expected to lose in terms of expendable items. Far less than you budget to them, BTW. Diplomacy, as written, does not work. At all. There's a thread now debating the various methods of reaching the highest possible DC with few-to-no levels. They're currently at second. There's my core build, which reaches the highest possible DC, and there's a build with +222 to the check. Diplomacy is broken.

[Reel On, Love]

Yeah, that falls solidly in TLDR territory. But then, you didn't bring anything new to the table in your last dozen posts either.

I wonder if you use the same strategy on your DM - keep repeating yourself in the hopes that he'll give in after the 100th time and give you some bonus item?

Of course not. He's never actually played one of these things. If he had, he'd realize how much consumables cost, day to day. (Wand of Enlarge Person? Fine. Wand of any second level spell? It already costs 4500. Giacomo doesn't seem to realize that Wand of Heroism = 11,000 gp and Wand of Eagle's Splendor = 4,500 gp. Quite expensive just too boost your UMD check! WHEN are you affording this, again?)

At least when TLN wrote the Batman Guide, he did it after just having played a number of successful wizards.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Out of curiousity, what does TLDR mean? Been wanting to ask for a long while.

[Signmaker]

I don't remember that. Core only? In one round, move and flurry? I don't think that's possible, shuriken/sai attacks aside.

The methods I listed are (not necessarily in this order)
1) Mount moves, monk flurries
2) Intelligent item dim doors, monk flurries
3) Fellow PC caster dim doors, monk flurries
4) morph and pounce (not used due to suspicions of cheese, but that is apparently what the rules assumed would make the flurry viable for the monk to combine with his great move)

1. Only with ranged attacks, which are suboptimal in your build.
2. Have fun finding an intelligent item to do so. Less than 1% is raaaare.
3. This assumes that the enemy does not take his turn between you and caster. Also, why would a caster waste a turn Dim Dooring for a flurry when s/he could burn a spell on something more team-beneficial?
4. Cheese goes great with the wine. Pick a wine. Or a whine, for that matter.

[Mr.Bookworm]

This thread is hilarious.

On a semi-related note, I am incredibly interested in running a Core-only Batman against his build. At, say, 10th level?

To see if this can actually beat Batman.

[Reel On, Love]

Out of curiousity, what does TLDR mean? Been wanting to ask for a long while.

It means the deer is teal.

(Too long; didn't read.)

[Signmaker]

This thread is hilarious.

On a semi-related note, I am incredibly interested in running a Core-only Batman against his build. At, say, 10th level?

To see if this can actually beat Batman.

You'd need several different scenarios, in terms of 'playing field'. Would have to range in distance, cover, etc.

Not to mention he would attempt an Eversmoking Bottle if he starts to lose. In which case you Gust of Wind and say "No."

[Griffin131]

But the monk or other non-caster all of a sudden also using spells? "OH NOS! SACRILEGE!"
This is really ridiculous. Note: the casters are CASTERS. Not MAGIC MONOPOLISTS. EVeryone can use magic in the DD3.5 universe. And it is made available also with magic items (and UMD for access to scrolls and wands). Learn to live with it or play a different game and houserule.:smallwink:
Everyone can break the law. It even makes it easier to catch criminals! Becoming a criminal to catch a criminal isnt always a good idea, however. Yes, everyone can use magic. Some are better at it than others. Relying on it to exist, unless you're a casting class, is a bad idea. One good MDJ, or Dispel Magic, and you're done and half your tricks are useless.


I still do not get Talic's calculations on wbl. There is a simple table in the DMG p. 135; everyone on the optimisation boards uses that as a guideline. It is suggested by the DMG as a basis for balance and power level. So what is the problem here?
The problem is you're devoting a lot of money to disposables. WBL breaks (against your favor) if you use disposables too much - the system isn't designed or you to keep pouring your money in the toilet.


From the FAQ, p.20:
Can a monk make disarm, sunder, and trip attacks
during her flurry of blows? What about grapple checks?
What about bull rushes, overruns, or other special combat
maneuvers?
As long as every attack is made with one of the monk’s
special weapons (that is, weapons allowed as part of a flurry),
the monk can perform any special attack that takes the place of
a normal attack. She’s free to disarm, sunder, trip, and grapple
to her heart’s content.
She couldn’t bull rush or overrun (since those don’t use
special monk weapons), nor could she aid another (which
requires a standard action) or feint (which requires a move
action).
Wait - You're free to disarm, trip, and initiate a grapple. Thats a special attack that takes the place of a normal attack. Once in a grapple, thats totally different.


Now what this shows me again is two things:
a) The monk makes the best grappler in the game (as I said) and
Debatable.

b) Some posters here go "the monk SUUUUUCKS" without even knowing how grappling works (and here I was to believe that noone would surpass Solo's belief that for grappling you have to do a normal melee attack roll, revealed after he maintained for pages in another thread that grappling is not really a great tactics). Funny indeed.
My hunch, though, is somehow, that the doubters will remain unconvinced.
No matter how much you polish a turd...


The monk DOES have quite a few skills to choose from and specialise in case of a skill-poor party, but he makes a great scout.
In open areas with no traps, yes. Traps make noise. Noise means your stealthyness is negated.


Now I think you're jumping to conclusions. Some of us are quite upset that casters are stronger than non-casters in 3e, because we like playing non-casters.

As much as I like to believe that - why then this often emotional reactions? There is even right now another thread sprung up here by Vael with the sole purpose to make fun of mine.
This is not the reaction of a player who desperately looks around within the existing rules and to ideas of others to see what can be done about a class he likes to play. It is about making fun of people who like to play that class imo.
Paranoid much? Casters rule D&D. Trying to argue they don't, using RAW, is pointless, has been done to death, and is worse than beating a dead horse.


(Edited to demonstrate what I assume this statement was claiming.) More shakiness. Can you back this claim up with statistics, for those of us who aren't sure whether it's true and don't want to do the math?

[quote]Sure.
It is the faster iterative reduction for the fighter's grapple checks which gives the monk a good pin chance even unbuffed.
Say, at level 10 which often is used as an example so far:
Monk has grapple check of +14/+14/+9. Fighter has +17/+12. (same STR is assumed).
The fighter will likely start the pin, if it's his turn first for full grapple round. If it's the monk's turn, though...
+14/+14/+9 vs +17 means the monk has to beat on average a score of 27, which is a 32% in the first case (a tie going with 30% prob to the monk), a 31% in the second case and a 7% in the last. This yields around (too lazy to use calclus, so out of my head): 0.32+(0.31*0,68)+(0.32*0.06)=0.56 = 56% chance of monk pinning the fighter.
Now, this chance to pin rises dramatically the moment the monk buffs while the fighter will not - this is likely imo because the monk is far superior in the hide/spot game.
You've mis-calced your grapple check. 7(BAB)+4(Imp. Grapple)+3(Str)-2(Flurry)==12. So its 12/12/7 vs 17/12. And your hide/spot game doesnt always work -- you dont always get to roll hide/spot before an encounter. The DM can rule that theres no surprise round, an in my experience typically does.


True. However, where are the advantages of the monk?
- the spiked armour added damage only applies in the initial grapple check (read the armour spike description). When another starts the grapple, the armour spike no longer applies.
Ummm... false? Where are you reading that? Spoilering the 2 Armor Spike passages, feel free to bold the relevant

Armor Spikes

You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a -4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can’t also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.)

An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes’ effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right.

Spiked Armor

You can outfit your armor with spikes, which can deal damage in a grapple or as a separate attack. See Armor for details.


- the barbarian can get fatigued after his STR rage. And even with the rage until higher level, he only gets +2 more
- the monk gets improved grapple as a bonus feat without prerequisites. This is golden for enlarge effects, since fighters and barbarians need to have a starting DEX of 15 not to lose the feat when enlarged.
- the monk has higher base damage which stacks greatly with size increases and the monk's belt. Meanwhile, until level 11 (when the monk's belt is avaiable), the barbarian and fighter when enlarged only do 1d3! base.
Higher base only matters if you can do damage. If you're pinned, you cannot do damage. Also, you have to hit my AC (with a -4 to hit) if you're not pinned -- unless you want to do an opposed grapple check, which could be a bad idea.


More too-quickly-explained "evidence." Still, I agree with this point ... IF it's a Monk build with a high AC. Which yours most certainly is NOT. Lots of traps attack you with attack rolls, you know.

Now that is a good point. Hmmm. Lord Khaine's build has better combat stats and less skills and no UMD - that is where the idea of simply triggering traps is based on.
Will avoid trap triggering with the Joker monk!
Avoiding triggering traps == no scouting indoors.


Hmmm. The same goes for pun-pun or the funny word and the wish builds. Basically, at one point or another, someone will come up with the idea. The astounding thing is that on the one hand quite a few comment: ah of course the monk will be powerful with UMD, since it's so ultra-powerful, and on the other no-one really thought about using in a build cross-class for a non-caster combatant before. Which WAS the case with morph or diplomancer builds.
No one uses it cross-class because you can't get enough ranks to be efficient at it, without dedicating a lot of your build to it, in which case why not be a class that gets it as a class skill?


A consequence could also be that hardly any DMs appear to bother about spot and listen checks of the opponents which alerts them way before that the 20ft move dwarf clanks into their direction. Similarly, they will harass a monk player for "taking too long to buff" while he can easily in 1-2 rounds of extra buffs catch up with them due to higher move.
The actions in a combat that you lose by buffing means that someone else had to take up your slack If your group knows the opponents are more than 10 seconds away, then yeah.. go ahead and buff. If you just get the surprise round, then you buffing would annoy me - I'd rather you actually get in the fight. But thats just me.


As Reel On, Love, put it further up: he hardly has any experience with encounters as having surprise on either side. So of course he discards a stealth strategy as irrelevant!
If his experience is common, shouldn't builds that rely on the uncommon be derided?

Maybe it is also influenced by tabletop play where many simply cannot afford the sheer space of combat area to simulate a dungeon or hall that is 100s of feet long.
Rooms that are that big stretch disbelief. They just aren't really practical most of the time. If you're talking about hallways that are that long, that REALLY stretches disbelief.


1) they play most of the time outside the core rules, with the latest brand new super xy spell or z feat combo and thus the normal CR standards may break down. Hence also their reluctance to argue in terms of core builds (in particular when discussing balance and maintaining allegedly the core rules are even more broken than everything else, ah the irony!).
I play exclusively non-casters. I play core much of the time. My parties *always* face CR=Level or more encounters. They're boring otherwise.

2) another point is one I often made already on these boards in that play is often geared towards fitting the caster players' whims and them being touched only with soft gloves by their DMs (because in particular the arcane casters are so fragile, so there is rather only binary threat to them: dead or 100% nicely alive and winning).
You do realize that CR indicates an estimation of what the party will lose defeating the encounter, and while hit points are one of the things its possible to lose, its far from the only one. Losing spells is a threat - what if they case the one spell they need for the next encounter? I'm sorry, if you think casters only face a loss of hit points, then its you that doesn't understand the game.


The problem is that enemies with reach weapons and even natural reach attack will not hurt the monk who simply tumbles and then attacks.
Vs enemies with reach weapons (even the super spiked chain fighters), the monk simply tumbles close to the weapon wielder and grapples. The reach weapon (which is never a light weapon) has just gone useless.
And some of even the large monsters that are quadrupeds have only a reach of 5ft.
So, other people cannot make Tumble checks versus you, but you'll always make them versus other people. GJ.


Good point. But it's still an advantage. Most traps have ways to be switched off- might be just on the other side of that chasm...
Rope Use + Grapple Iron. Who needs to jump that far?

And low ceilings btw mean the caster defense of flying around is not that safe anymore...:smallbiggrin:
Caster's have other options for defense if theres a low ceiling. You don't have other options if theres a low ceiling (as far as jumping goes).


Yes. What many want to try to look incredible this way is that you do not need that high of a UMD to make already great use of it. Magic is cheap - that''s I guess what enrages the wizard fans most. They hate the UMD skill, like the diplomacy skill that can even solve encounters without magic.
On the contrary - I love UMD. I just know how valuable losing actions in combat is.


The methods I listed are (not necessarily in this order)
1) Mount moves, monk flurries
2) Intelligent item dim doors, monk flurries
3) Fellow PC caster dim doors, monk flurries
4) morph and pounce (not used due to suspicions of cheese, but that is apparently what the rules assumed would make the flurry viable for the monk to combine with his great move)
1) FAQ forbids
2) Works, but cheesy
3) Works, but exposes squishies to melee. Not the best idea, but they should be buffed anyway.


This monk is supposed to be broadly good at a number of things and fulfill thus various of the PHB monk roles. The area where he is more "specialised" in is defeating casters.
Casters defeat casters better than you do.


You still need to make a concentration check, even with dimension door to escape a grapple. And dimension door did not help you AVOID the grapple - you still took the damage from it.
The concentration check isn't that hard really, but yes it has to be made.


In almost all of them. It starts with enlarge, then probably also some kind of bless (with bead), and/or ability buffs, heroism, and eventually stuff like holy sword and divine power.
Yeah... you actually believe you'll have your buffs in almost all fights? I know you need them to be competitive, but if you waste in combat rounds buffing yourself, you'd get kicked out of my party.


If scouting is not the monk's forte, whose is? Movement speed is essential for running away, getting cover, concealment, controlling the encounter and actually coming back fast enough.
The Rogues. Movement speed is essential for running if you're spotted, which according to you can't happen to your monk. And you can send warnings to your friends without actually running all the way back.


Yes, the trap"triggering" part is not that good for the monk, I admit that. At least not for the monk I posted. Others can be built easily to do that.
Not and stay stealthy - as I've pointed out.

[FMArthur]

Just hand him a list of spells you've prepared and say "I win".

[Frosty]

He's right. You can use it to INITIATE a grapple.

[Turcano]

The problem is: the moment this build starts to specialise, it will take power away from its purpose to make life difficult for casters (say, it will become stronger but dumber and thus have less skills and ways to get UMD, Spellcraft AND the stealth four skills set). But definitely there are variants of this (like one following the lord_khaine school). Will post some soon into the guide way up.

Okay, since you want to use the monk as a mage-killer, that's five roles you want to fill, and the monk class can realistically handle two, or three at the very most. You need to pick a horse and ride it.


See above. And the original guide. At levels 1-8 it is a good tactics.

Okay, I hadn't read the FAQ on that, so that's my bad.


If scouting is not the monk's forte, whose is? Movement speed is essential for running away, getting cover, concealment, controlling the encounter and actually coming back fast enough.

Scouting should be done much more effectively by the rogue, the ranger, or (if you're playing non-core), the scout. Movement speed is much, much less important than high ranks in the relevant skills and/or class features that actually help you stay hidden (i.e., camouflage, hide in plain sight).


You fail to see various issues:
1) You only need UMD of +19 for the wand buffs. So, the expert getting a higher bonus is not that much of an issue. He gets it faster, though (but does not have as many feats as the monk to spare, though)
2) The expert does not have class abilities to speak of to synergise as well with the buffs.
3) The magic items will not "go fizzle". They are not consumed when you fail to use them. You can try as often as you like until it activates (only on a "1" you have to wait a day, so best get a spare one).
4) The build can buff every encounter. (once again: 140 until level 10, so 1000 first level spell castings until then).

On point 1): you get a +19 in UMD... at level 15. That's three-quarters of your career until you reach the point where you can buff yourself reliably. You're much better off scrapping UMD altogether and relying on your party's wizard and cleric for buffs like everyone else does.
On point 2): Frankly, I don't see a lot of synergizing going on for the monk, either. At least not any that any other class can't have.
On point 3): I was thinking that wands worked the same way scrolls do when you fail with them. My bad.
On point 4): This is why you need to plan out your buffs for this, because we need to see just how much mileage you're getting out of those wands. And even if you can afford to buff every encounter, you're still eating up too many combat actions buffing yourself, especially if you fail (which you'll be doing a lot of until level 15).


In your eyes maybe. He does exactly what you wish it to have (and more besides):
- he is an opportunistic fighter
- he can provide flanking
- he can provide all kinds of support (from backup spellcasting, backup spellcraft, all the way to scouting and useful items boosting everyone's spells on occasions)

As I've said before, your monk is severely hampered in his fighting abilities by focusing on stuff that your party's rogue should be doing. If you want the monk to be an opportunistic fighter and a mage-killer, you need to have him focus on those things. (Also, your obsession with core-only is putting you at a severe disadvantage in this regard, as most of the best feats for these focuses lie outside of core. If it's a question of not having the source material in question, just go to Crystal Keep; it's what I do.)

You can make an effective mage-killer. But this? Isn't how to do it.

[Solo]

b) Some posters here go "the monk SUUUUUCKS" without even knowing how grappling works (and here I was to believe that noone would surpass Solo's belief that for grappling you have to do a normal melee attack roll, revealed after he maintained for pages in another thread that grappling is not really a great tactics). Funny indeed.

Hello, Giacomo.

You seem to have forgotten that I made that mistake based on skimming over the introduction to Grappling in the SRD, which reads

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple

Starting a Grapple

To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).

Later, however it clarifies


Step 2

Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3.

I quickly realized that this was a mistake and promptly owed up to it, in the face of you accusing me of deliberately misinterpreting the information.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

As Mr. Solo has pointed out, my internet is kaput, so I have no ability to keep up with this thread, but Giamoco, could you please type out my whole name "Chosen_of Vecna" if you reply to me, so that I can find it with ctrl-F?

I have been reading a little bit, but I gave up when I realized more pages appeared each day then I have time to read.

That said:

1) Gia, you seem to have a very different version of how WBL works then, well, everyone else. So I want to ask you and Talic a few questions, so that we can get a clearer picture of why so many people think your UMD usage would never work.

1) A level 5 Fighter (played from level 1) sells the +1 Axe he found, he then uses the money from that sale and his pocket to buy a +1 Greatsword. An unspecified number of encounters later, he gains a level and is level 6. His current total Wealth (including market value of all items) is?

a) WBL of level 6?
b) WBL of level 6 -1000gp, the difference in cost of the sale?
c) WBL of level 6 -1000gp +the disposable income posited by Talic for level 5?
d) WBL of level 6 -1000gp +Cumulative disposable income?

2) A Monk buys a Wand of Enlarge Person at level 5, he uses all 50 charges before reaching level 12. This is the only consumable item he has purchased. How much Wealth does he have?

a) WBL of level 12?
b) WBL of level 12 -the cost of the wand?
c) WBL of level 12 -Wand cost +disposable income?
d) WBL of level 12 -Wand Cost +Cumulative disposable income?

3) A Monk spends his entire WBL at character creation (level 5) on partial charge wands of several different things. He uses all of them over the next two levels, he has now just reached level 7. How much Wealth does he have?

a) WBL of level 7?
b) WBL of level 7 -the cost of the wands?
c) WBL of level 7 -Wand cost +disposable income?
d) WBL of level 7 -Scroll Cost +Cumulative disposable income?

4) A level 10 Wizard buys 13 scrolls of gate. He then uses each one to win 13 straight encounters, after which he levels to level 11. How much Wealth does he have?

a) WBL 11?
b) WBL 11 -Cost of scrolls?
c) WBL 11 -Scroll Cost +Disposable income of level 11?
d) WBL 11 -Scroll Cost +Cumulative disposable income?

5) If the answer to the above is a) how soon can he expect to be able to buy another scroll to replace it? Should he expect full return of Wealth?

a) The encounter should have more gold then usual, enough to bring him back to WBL?
b) The encounters for the day should have more then usual treasure, enough to bring him back that day?
c) Enough to bring him back up in a couple days?
d) Enough to bring him back up at level up?

Secondly, I find your monk guide terribly lacking because I find your builds to be very lacking at what you claim they can accomplish, this is just a general statement with no support yet, I intend to run some of your builds at various levels (suggestions are welcome, but I default to 5-10-15 when left to my own devices). So thank you very much for presenting me with builds for me to finally test my beliefs about your strategies.

Now for some specific criticisms about your methods:

1) I don't think I agree with you about WBL, so the idea of making a character based on UMDing from levels 4-20 makes me cringe, because I can't imagine you having even half of WBL at any level past 10.

2) You advocate stealth consistently, I have long ago recognized that you think hiding works very differently from what I have no problem saying is how it really works. That's a big issue. You can't sneak up to someone. Period. You can occasionally in some circumstances, sneak to within charge range, but not ever directly adjacent without invisibility of some kind, so you can never start with a full attack.

3) In addition, you prefer stealth, you also prefer buffing by using wands. Those wands require a Command word activation, and are not going to succeed every time, or even very often. As such, what happens when you fail to enlarge yourself and your opponent then seeks you out? This is clearly not an effective strategy.

4) You make a lot of talk about AoOs and enlarged grapple monks, but tumble is incredibly easy to reach, more simple then your UMDing of wands. And most monsters are large or larger, and so have reaches that allow them to hit you without provoking AoOs, for example: You claimed that a charging Tiger would provoke an AoO on you which you use to grapple, and therefore not get it's pouncing charge. However, it has a 10ft reach, so it would actually still get it's charge, pounce, improved grab, and rake. And it does more damage then you in a grapple, because it has rake.

5) You have consistently claimed that it only takes a touch attack to initiate a grapple. However, you are wrong, it is a touch attack followed by a successful grapple check, therefore your chance for failure is increased very significantly in many cases, since most creatures or characters have a very high result for one or the other of these.

6) As far as I can tell you don't calculate the flurry penalty into your grapple checks, I'll recheck that before I run the tests, but this is mostly just a side comment, please let me know if it is wrong.

[Griffin131]

5) You have consistently claimed that it only takes a touch attack to initiate a grapple. However, you are wrong, it is a touch attack followed by a successful grapple check, therefore your chance for failure is increased very significantly in many cases, since most creatures or characters have a very high result for one or the other of these.

6) As far as I can tell you don't calculate the flurry penalty into your grapple checks, I'll recheck that before I run the tests, but this is mostly just a side comment, please let me know if it is wrong.

I noticed and pointed out 6 as well, and knew but was misreading what he said about #5. Yeah Giacomo, its not as easy to initiate as you think. Plus, you can flurry to initiate a grapple, but not while in it.

[Worira]

A couple of things: Tigers have 5-foot reach (although they'd still horribly, horribly slaughter the Giacomonk in a grapple, dealing roughly 14 damage a round, if I haven't screwed up my calculations somewhere, dropping the monk into negatives in two rounds, and taking the monk about 5 to do the same, and thats assuming enlarge. And I think that just might have been a run-on sentence), and Giacomo's build is within WBL, taking into account disposable income. He actually ends up with around 400,000 gp of permanent items, and just over 760,000 gp in total.

[Solo]

As Mr. Solo has pointed out, my internet is kaput, so I have no ability to keep up with this thread, but Giamoco, could you please type out my whole name "Chosen_of Vecna" if you reply to me, so that I can find it with ctrl-F?


The circle is now complete.

[Reinboom]

The circle is now complete.

Needs more Fax.

[Bassetking]

Needs more Fax.

Quoted for Truth, Justice, and the OOTSian way.

[Aquillion]

and Giacomo's build is within WBL, taking into account disposable income. He actually ends up with around 400,000 gp of permanent items, and just over 760,000 gp in total.Does that account for money spent to get to that level, though? Don't forget to subtract the cost of all the charges and items he plans to use in every fight, times (roughly) 11 for each level he has to play through.

Sure, you can afford all that once, if you want to spend your character's WBL on a single surge of power. But Chosen_of_Vecna's point is that it doesn't magically grow back -- if you constantly have to spend absurdly large amounts of money on consumable items, you're going to get further and further behind the WBL curve with every encounter.

Consumable one-use items are one use for a reason. They're supposed to save you in an emergency, not be used as your primary strategy -- and if you use them as your primary strategy, you're not going to go up in WBL along with everyone else.

[Talic]

Actually, Dimension Door does not allow any actions to be used at all after used. Thus, if you Dimension door, or if an item Dim Door's for you, you may not flurry afterwards.

Now flurrying, and then getting Dim Door'd AWAY by an item, that would work.


To support your claim on grappling, I would like you to post your monk's typical grapple abilities, assuming he had foreknowledge of the attack, and had the following buffs available:

As many buffs as desired with a duration of hours per level
Any one buff with a shorter duration, provided that duration is at least 6 rounds in duration.
Assume items are for a 1 shot adventure (which this, in essence, is), and thus, disposable items are at 5x cost, to partially reflect the expenses of doing this tactic whenever needed.

Factor checks for a monk of the following levels, using your Joker Monk as a template. Include number of attacks on a full attack (assume flurry allowed).

Level 1
Level 5
Level 10
Level 15
Level 20

I will then scour the SRD for every creature of the CR's listed above, will compile lists with similar stats for the top 50% of the grapplers in each bracket, and do an analysis of your odds at that level.

[Worira]

Uh, he listed his budget in the post, and the wand budget is clearly stated to be cumulative. So yes.

[Nebo_]

Needs more Fax.

He's been inactive for a long time, now. Anyone know what happened to him?

[Talic]

1) A level 5 Fighter (played from level 1) sells the +1 Axe he found, he then uses the money from that sale and his pocket to buy a +1 Greatsword. An unspecified number of encounters later, he gains a level and is level 6. His current total Wealth (including market value of all items) is?

a) WBL of level 6?
b) WBL of level 6 -1000gp, the difference in cost of the sale?
c) WBL of level 6 -1000gp +the disposable income posited by Talic for level 5?
d) WBL of level 6 -1000gp +Cumulative disposable income?
(C) is the correct answer. Provided treasure rolls for DMG p.51 yield a roughly average treasure result overall, then the fighter should have WBL equal to (level 6) + (disposable income figure I listed for level 5) - (disposable wealth used/lost to sale/etc).

It should be noted in this example, if the fighter upgraded the +1 Axe he found, his disposable income loss is 0.


2) A Monk buys a Wand of Enlarge Person at level 5, he uses all 50 charges before reaching level 12. This is the only consumable item he has purchased. How much Wealth does he have?

a) WBL of level 12?
b) WBL of level 12 -the cost of the wand?
c) WBL of level 12 -Wand cost +disposable income?
d) WBL of level 12 -Wand Cost +Cumulative disposable income?
Provided the only disposable item he used was the wand, and he didn't sell any items for half value (as the fighter did in example 1), then (D) is correct, as DMG p135 governs how much he started with, and DMG p51 governs how much he gained while adventuring.
3) A Monk spends his entire WBL at character creation (level 5) on partial charge wands of several different things. He uses all of them over the next two levels, he has now just reached level 7. How much Wealth does he have?

a) WBL of level 7?
b) WBL of level 7 -the cost of the wands?
c) WBL of level 7 -Wand cost +disposable income?
d) WBL of level 7 -Wand Cost +Cumulative disposable income?
(D) is correct, assuming again, no sale of items, as was done in example (1). The Disposable wealth for levels 5 and 6 will be the cumulative totals.



4) A level 10 Wizard buys 13 scrolls of gate. He then uses each one to win 13 straight encounters, after which he levels to level 11. How much Wealth does he have?

a) WBL 11?
b) WBL 11 -Cost of scrolls?
c) WBL 11 -Scroll Cost +Disposable income of level 10?
d) WBL 11 -Scroll Cost +Cumulative disposable income?
C is correct, providing no sale of items at half price.

5) If the answer to the above is a) how soon can he expect to be able to buy another scroll to replace it? Should he expect full return of Wealth?

a) The encounter should have more gold then usual, enough to bring him back to WBL?
b) The encounters for the day should have more then usual treasure, enough to bring him back that day?
c) Enough to bring him back up in a couple days?
d) Enough to bring him back up at level up?As soon as the surplus wealth he earns outpaces the rate at which he blows his money on one shot items. None of the above should be used. If a player chooses to squander his wealth, none of the above methods of giving the character more money are RAW. You give him what's called for in the encounters, you let him get average money, and, if the player is thrifty with future items, then he may reach parity again after a level or two.

[Turcano]

By the by, I've cooked up a mage-slayer monk build of my own. I'm not very experienced putting monk builds together, so this is based purely on intuition:


Human Monk 15/Occult Slayer 5
Medium Humanoid (Human)
HD 20d8+60, hp 153
Init +11; Speed 80ft./x4
AC 41 (+8 armor, +7 Dex, +7 Wis, +5 natural, +4 monk), touch 28, flat-footed 34
Base Attack/Grapple +16/+20
Full Attack +24/+24/+24/+19/+14/+9 (2d10+8, 20/x2, +4 adamantine defending ki focus gauntlets)
SA & SQ: Armor restriction, AC bonus (Ex), flurry of blows (Ex), improved evasion (Ex), fast movement (Ex), still mind (Ex), ki strike (Su), slow fall 70 ft. (Ex), purity of body (Ex), wholeness of body (Su), diamond body (Su), abundant step (Su), diamond soul (Ex), quivering palm (Su), magical defense (Ex), weapon bond (Su), mind over magic (Su), vicious strike (Ex), auravision (Su), nondetection cloak (Su), blank thoughts (Ex)
SR 25, Alignment LG
Fort +18, Ref +22, Will +26
Str 18 (+4), Dex 25 (+7), Con 16 (+3), Int 10 (+0), Wis 24 (+7), Cha 6 (-2)
Skills: Balance +24, Climb +7, Escape Artist +20, Jump +44, Knowledge (arcana) +4, Listen +12, Spellcraft +5, Spot +20, Tumble +27
Feats: Adaptable Flanker, Blind-Fight, Improved Disarm, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, Pierce Magical Protection, Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Vexing Flanker

Important Equipment: +4 adamantine defending ki focus gauntlet (x2) (150,000 gp), Bracers of armor +8 (64,000 gp), Cloak of Resistance +5 (25,000 gp), Monk's Belt (13,000 gp), Gloves of Dexterity +6 (36,000 gp), Amulet of Natural Armor +5 (50,000 gp), Vest of Wisdom +6 (custom item, x1.5 price) (54,000 gp), Manual of Gainful Exercise +2 (55,000 gp), Manual of Quickness of Action +2 (55,000 gp), Manual of Bodily Health +2 (55,000 gp), Tome of Understanding +2 (55,000 gp)

Disposable Wealth: 148,000 gp

So, do you optimization jockeys out there have some pointers to improve this?

[Solo]

The save DC for a 9th level spell can be as high as 29, in core. Your fort save is going to fail 45% of the time.

This is less than optimal.

Also, your HP is too low. One Power Word Stun will ruin your day.

[Reel On, Love]

The save DC for a 9th level spell can be as high as 29, in core. Your fort save is going to fail 45% of the time.

This is less than optimal.

Also, your HP is too low. One Power Word Stun will ruin your day.

What? No, the maximum DC is higher than 29.

20 INT (Gray Elf) + 5 levels + 5 tome + 6 item = 36 INT, or +13. The maximum DC of a 9th level spell is 32... and that's without being Old and without Spell Focuses. (And without Imprisonment's potential -4 penalty.)
That's a 60% chance to fail vs. Wail of the Banshee, 70% with Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy.

[Turcano]

The save DC for a 9th level spell can be as high as 29, in core. Your fort save is going to fail 45% of the time.

This is less than optimal.

Also, your HP is too low. One Power Word Stun will ruin your day.

Blank Thoughts gives immunity to compulsions.

As for the Fort save, the best I can do seems to be +25 with a Tome of Understanding +5 (instead of +2) Con +6 item, a stone of good luck, and a pale green ioun stone. Would this be enough?

[Talic]

Uh, he listed his budget in the post, and the wand budget is clearly stated to be cumulative. So yes.

His budget in his post is improperly done.

Using his character, say at level 2, wherein you state that potions can suffice, since UMD isn't reliable yet. Of the 14 encounters, let's say 11 are combat, requiring a 50gp potion. Let's say out of combat, you use a total of 14 charges on a standard level 1 wand, also. You've now spent 560 gp in treasure. When doing those 14 encounters you get, say 2000 gp in treasure, according to the table. Let's say, at level 3, you're supposed to have an extra 1700 gp over where you started. Because you spent more in disposable income, you only have 1,440 gp over. Thus, because you blew through your WBL like a fat kid in a gingerbread house, you're 260gp behind.

No amount of writing (cumulative) after your wand allocation will alter the fact that, if you overuse disposable items in a campaign that is played by RAW treasure dispersion (as outlined on DMG 51), you WILL fall behind in WBL. No amount of arguing, distorting the truth, or anything else will change that. It is proven mathematical fact, and any disagreement with it is wrong. No matter how you phrase that disagreement, it is wrong.

(900 +1900 - 100) > (900 +1900 -500)

1000 is starting wealth for a level x character.
1900 is treasure gained over 1 level of adventuring.
Final number represents 2 different characters who spend different amounts on disposable wealth.

The first set of numbers represent the person who spends 100gp on disposable items, while the second represents the person who spends 500gp.

Are you seriously trying to argue that character 2 up there should have the same amount as character 1? Are you saying that the above formula (which is mathematically sound) is wrong?

If so, there are about 4,000 years of mathematicians that seem to disagree with you.

[Solo]

Blank Thoughts gives immunity to compulsions.

As for the Fort save, the best I can do seems to be +24 with a Tome of Understanding +5 (instead of +2) Con +6 item, a stone of good luck, and a pale green ioun stone. Would this be enough?

I take it you mean Mindblank, in which case, yes, it does work.

Until someone Dispels it.

[Reel On, Love]

Blank Thoughts gives immunity to compulsions.

As for the Fort save, the best I can do seems to be +23 with a Tome of Understanding +5 (instead of +2), a stone of good luck, and a pale green ioun stone. Would this be enough?

It'd be close enough for government work, but you'd still risk failing maxed-out humanoid DCs Even non-maxed-out could mean DCs of 29-30 on the highest-level spells.

You probably also mean the Manual of Health, not the Tome of Undersanding (which boosts WIS, which doesn't help your Fortitude save).

*sees the edit*
Keep in mind that if you have a CON +6 item, you can't have a WIS +6 item.

[Turcano]

I take it you mean Mindblank, in which case, yes, it does work.

Until someone Dispels it.

No, Blank Thoughts is the 5th-level special feature of the Occult Slayer class, which effectively gives you mind blank as an (Ex) ability.


Keep in mind that if you have a CON +6 item, you can't have a WIS +6 item.

I would get it as another custom item, if possible (I already did for the Wis item).

[tyckspoon]

I take it you mean Mindblank, in which case, yes, it does work.

Until someone Dispels it.

It's an Ex ability. I don't think anybody's going to be dispelling that.

How did you come by the pricing for your Vest of Wisdom, Turcano? If it's being marked up for being in the wrong slot affinity, you could move it to a headband ('mental improvement') and save 18,000. And then.. mm, move the Monk's Belt to the Vest ('class ability improvement') and pick up a Belt of Strength +4?

[Turcano]

How did you come by the pricing for your Vest of Wisdom, Turcano? If it's being marked up for being in the wrong slot affinity, you could move it to a headband ('mental improvement') and save 18,000.

It is. I'll take advantage of that mark-down.

Okay, the updated build is as follows:


Human Monk 15/Occult Slayer 5
Medium Humanoid (Human)
HD 20d8+120, hp 213
Init +11; Speed 80ft./x4
AC 41 (+8 armor, +7 Dex, +7 Wis, +5 natural, +4 monk), touch 28, flat-footed 34
Base Attack/Grapple +16/+20
Full Attack +24/+24/+24/+19/+14/+9 (2d10+8, 20/x2, +4 adamantine defending ki focus gauntlets)
SA & SQ: Armor restriction, AC bonus (Ex), flurry of blows (Ex), improved evasion (Ex), fast movement (Ex), still mind (Ex), ki strike (Su), slow fall 70 ft. (Ex), purity of body (Ex), wholeness of body (Su), diamond body (Su), abundant step (Su), diamond soul (Ex), quivering palm (Su), magical defense (Ex), weapon bond (Su), mind over magic (Su), vicious strike (Ex), auravision (Su), nondetection cloak (Su), blank thoughts (Ex)
SR 25, Alignment LG
Fort +25, Ref +24, Will +28
Str 18 (+4), Dex 25 (+7), Con 22 (+6), Int 10 (+0), Wis 24 (+7), Cha 6 (-2)
Skills: Balance +26, Climb +9, Escape Artist +22, Jump +46, Knowledge (arcana) +6, Listen +14, Spellcraft +7, Spot +22, Tumble +29
Feats: Adaptable Flanker, Blind-Fight, Improved Disarm, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, Pierce Magical Protection, Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Vexing Flanker

Important Equipment: +4 adamantine defending ki focus gauntlet (x2) (150,000 gp), Bracers of armor +8 (64,000 gp), Cloak of Resistance +5 (25,000 gp), Monk's Belt (13,000 gp), Gloves of Dexterity +6 (36,000 gp), Amulet of Natural Armor +5 (50,000 gp), Headband of Wisdom +6 (custom item) (36,000 gp), Vest of Constitution +6 (custom item, x1.5 price) (54,000 gp), Manual of Gainful Exercise +2 (55,000 gp), Manual of Quickness of Action +2 (55,000 gp), Manual of Bodily Health +2 (55,000 gp), Tome of Understanding +2 (55,000 gp), stone of good luck (20,000 gp), pale green ioun stone (20,000 gp)

Disposable Wealth: 72,000 gp

[marjan]

Turcano, might I ask you what are Vexing Flanker and Adaptable Flanker there for? You'll only use them if you have someone on the team and this is supposed to be solo-magekiller, am I right?

EDIT: Might I also suggest that stuff from CM that lets you redirect failed touch attacks back to caster.

[Solo]

No, Blank Thoughts is the 5th-level special feature of the Occult Slayer class, which effectively gives you mind blank as an (Ex) ability.

Ah, that's a bit tougher.
In that case, the Wizard may be forced to spam Enervation and other no save spells, or Shapechange into something and proceed to lay down the smack.

Say, do you think a Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade (w/Mettle)/Blackguard/Occult Slayer would do as well?

[marjan]

Say, do you think a Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade (w/Mettle)/Blackguard/Occult Slayer would do as well?

That should work if you can squeeze all the feats you need in there. Might be difficult though.

[Turcano]

Turcano, might I ask you what are Vexing Flanker and Adaptable Flanker there for? You'll only use them if you have someone on the team and this is supposed to be solo-magekiller, am I right?

No, I don't see the point in "arena" builds other than as a thought experiment. As for the feats, they're there to give the monk some versatility should the party not have to deal with a spellcaster; if it were just a regular monk build, I probably would have added even more feats from the Combat Reflexes tree.

[Solo]

That should work if you can squeeze all the feats you need in there. Might be difficult though.

Hm. Blackguard needs Cleave, Improved Sunder, Power Attack. PA would be taken anyways, so it only makes me take 2 (somewhat) useless feats. What does Occult Slayer cost?

[Talic]

Include a defense against negative energy attacks, a way to reach a mage through distance, and a way to protect against massive damage spells, and you're good. A big one is an Orb of force, metamagicked to the high heavens. Attacks such as these are touch attacks, and, with the right spells, down to a dangerous flat-footed touch ac of 21 (which is, admittedly good for both flat footed AND touch).

For example, a mage that is invisible (or ethereal with transdimensional spell) could blast away with these orbs, against your flatfooted touch AC, all day long. If memory serves, tippy's gotten such shots up to around 300 damage each.

[Turcano]

Ah, that's a bit tougher.
In that case, the Wizard may be forced to spam Enervation and other no save spells, or Shapechange into something and proceed to lay down the smack.

No-save spells usually require a touch attack, and the build's touch AC is 28; I could try to get that up if you think it's necessary.


Include a defense against negative energy attacks, a way to reach a mage through distance, and a way to protect against massive damage spells, and you're good. A big one is an Orb of force, metamagicked to the high heavens.

This build assumes that the monk is a member of a party (i.e., not an "arena" build), so I think the monk can count on his party members for death ward and such. Orb of force is tricky, but stoneskin will help at least a little.

[tyckspoon]

I would swap the Amulet of Natural Armor for an equivalent-value Ring of Protection, now that I'm looking at it.. same AC value, but the Ring applies to Touch AC for no extra cost and you'd free up your Amulet slot.

[Talic]

Now that's good thinking. Especially since the neck slot is used for both con and wis items.

EDIT: Stoneskin will offer no protection against energy damage.

[Turcano]

What does Occult Slayer cost?

Occult Slayer needs Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus, four ranks of Knowledge (arcana), and three ranks of Spellcraft.


I would swap the Amulet of Natural Armor for an equivalent-value Ring of Protection, now that I'm looking at it.. same AC value, but the Ring applies to Touch AC for no extra cost and you'd free up your Amulet slot.

Rings of protection are deflection, not enhancement, so yeah, that works. I think I'll swap out the custom vest of Con, since that costs extra.

Edit: Updated build:


Human Monk 15/Occult Slayer 5
Medium Humanoid (Human)
HD 20d8+120, hp 213
Init +11; Speed 80ft./x4
AC 41 (+8 armor, +7 Dex, +7 Wis, +5 deflection, +4 monk), touch 33, flat-footed 34
Base Attack/Grapple +16/+20
Full Attack +24/+24/+24/+19/+14/+9 (2d10+8, 20/x2, +4 adamantine defending ki focus gauntlets)
SA & SQ: Armor restriction, AC bonus (Ex), flurry of blows (Ex), improved evasion (Ex), fast movement (Ex), still mind (Ex), ki strike (Su), slow fall 70 ft. (Ex), purity of body (Ex), wholeness of body (Su), diamond body (Su), abundant step (Su), diamond soul (Ex), quivering palm (Su), magical defense (Ex), weapon bond (Su), mind over magic (Su), vicious strike (Ex), auravision (Su), nondetection cloak (Su), blank thoughts (Ex)
SR 25, Alignment LG
Fort +23, Ref +24, Will +28
Str 18 (+4), Dex 25 (+7), Con 22 (+6), Int 10 (+0), Wis 24 (+7), Cha 6 (-2)
Skills: Balance +26, Climb +9, Escape Artist +22, Jump +46, Knowledge (arcana) +6, Listen +14, Spellcraft +7, Spot +22, Tumble +29
Feats: Adaptable Flanker, Blind-Fight, Improved Disarm, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, Pierce Magical Protection, Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Vexing Flanker

Important Equipment: +4 adamantine defending ki focus gauntlet (x2) (150,000 gp), Bracers of armor +8 (64,000 gp), Cloak of Resistance +5 (25,000 gp), Monk's Belt (13,000 gp), Gloves of Dexterity +6 (36,000 gp), Ring of Protection +5 (50,000 gp), Headband of Wisdom +6 (custom item) (36,000 gp), Amulet of Health +6 (36,000 gp), Manual of Gainful Exercise +2 (55,000 gp), Manual of Quickness of Action +2 (55,000 gp), Manual of Bodily Health +2 (55,000 gp), Tome of Understanding +2 (55,000 gp), stone of good luck (20,000 gp), pale green ioun stone (20,000 gp)

Disposable Wealth: 90,000 gp

[Solo]

Occult Slayer needs Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus, four ranks of Knowledge (arcana), and three ranks of Spellcraft.


So, 5 feats total for my 20 level build.

Not too bad...


No-save spells usually require a touch attack, and the build's touch AC is 28; I could try to get that up if you think it's necessary.
True Strike is only a first level spell.
Plus you're denied Dex if an invisible mage attacks you.



Edit: Updated build:

How do you fly?
Also, you'll need a way of dealing with Displacement and Mirror Image like effects that make it harder for you to hit the target.

[tyckspoon]

So.. let's see.. Human Paladin of Tyranny 3
- Blackguard Know (Religion) requirement, cross-classing Hide

Hexblade 4 (level 7- required to get 5 ranks in Hide cross-classed.)
- Occult Slayer skill requirements, continue taking Hide

Blackguard 2

Triple Cha against spells and Mettle. Level 9: 5 feats available normally, and Improved Initiative is even useful! So three feats burnt.. Flaws would help. Can get into Blackguard and take both prereqs for Occult Slayer. Inflicts a -4 on saves to nearby enemies between Dark Companion and Aura of Despair. Takes Occult Slayer at level 10, probably ducks out to another PrC after getting the (Ex) Mind Blank from level 15. Skill point requirements are..

Know (Religion): 2 points, class skill for paladin.
Hide: 4 at first level, 6 more over the next 6 levels. Class skill for nothing.
Know Arcane: 4 points, class skill for Hexblade.
Spellcraft: 3 points, class skill for Hexblade.

If starting with Hexblade to spend the first-level bonus on the skills with higher requirements, the skill points can be had with the Human skill point bonus and no Int penalty, or any race and Int 12.

[Turcano]

Well, if I can't bum a fly spell off the party wizard, winged boots are 16,000 gp.

[Solo]

So.. let's see.. Human Paladin of Tyranny 3
- Blackguard Know (Religion) requirement, cross-classing Hide

Hexblade 4 (level 7- required to get 5 ranks in Hide cross-classed.)
- Occult Slayer skill requirements, continue taking Hide

Blackguard 2

Triple Cha against spells and Mettle. Level 9: 5 feats available normally. Can get into Blackguard and take both prereqs for Occult Slayer. Inflicts a -4 on saves to nearby enemies between Dark Companion and Aura of Despair. Takes Occult Slayer at level 10, probably ducks out to another PrC after getting the (Ex) Mind Blank from level 15. Skill point requirements are..

Know (Religion): 2 points, class skill for paladin.
Hide: 4 at first level, 6 more over the next 6 levels. Class skill for nothing.
Know Arcane: 4 points, class skill for Hexblade.
Spellcraft: 3 points, class skill for Hexblade.

May want to start with Hexblade in order to spend the first-level skillpoint bonus on Arcana and Spellcraft.

Noted.

This is actually starting to look interesting. Perhaps my Hexadin can team up with Turcano's Mage-Slayer?

[marjan]

Also, you'll need a way of dealing with Displacement and Mirror Image like effects that make it harder for you to hit the target.

Pierce Magical Concealment should take care of these problems.

[Solo]

Ok, now what haven't we covered? has anyone recommended a Rod of Cancellation yet?

[marjan]

For more boost to saves Marshal can help (probably no need for that) with one of the save-boosting auras. Also reach (through feats, items,races) and Combat Reflexes should be put into the build.

[Turcano]

True Strike is only a first level spell.
Plus you're denied Dex if an invisible mage attacks you.

Hmm. I can't seem to find any items besides the ring of protection that boost touch AC. The robe of eyes would fix the flat-footedness, but it's now out of price range, and has drawbacks of its own. Combat Reflexes gives you an attack of opportunity, but that would require the caster being adjacent (although that would be the case if said caster tried to cast a touch spell without Reach Spell or Arcane Reach).

[Rutee]

Erm. I thought Monks retained dex to AC when flatfooted?

[Attilargh]

Oddly enough, no. They don't have Uncanny Dodge as a class feature. You might be thinking of the Wisdom bonus to AC, which applies even flat-footed.

[Kurald Galain]

It is. I'll take advantage of that mark-down.

Okay, the updated build is as follows:

In what way is a Monk 15/Occult Slayer 5 better than, say, a Rogue 15/Occult Slayer 5, or Barbarian 15/Occult Slayer 5?

[Rutee]

In what way is a Monk 15/Occult Slayer 5 better than, say, a Rogue 15/Occult Slayer 5, or Barbarian 15/Occult Slayer 5?

I don't think he posited that a Monk 15/OS 5 is the /best/, just that it might actually work.


Oddly enough, no. They don't have Uncanny Dodge as a class feature. You might be thinking of the Wisdom bonus to AC, which applies even flat-footed.
How silly.

[Solo]

You may want to talk a look through the spells listed by TLN in his guide and ask your self a) how you will deal with them being cast upon you, and b) if that is something you can do reliably.

[Nebo_]

You may want to talk a look through the spells listed by TLN in his guide and ask your self a) how you will deal with them being cast upon you, and b) if that is something you can do reliably.

To be fair, that's something everyone has to think about.

[Kurald Galain]

I don't think he posited that a Monk 15/OS 5 is the /best/, just that it might actually work.

I didn't say anybody posited it was the best; I don't mind if a build is not the "best". I am simply wondering if (and if so, how) it is better than a similar build with a full BAB class, or with sneak attack.

[Talic]

Tell you what... Solo looks like he's building a mage slayer. Someone else is building a mage slayer. Giacomo's joker build is building a mage slayer.

I have a proposal.

Take all 3. Give each of them any 2 buff spells you like (to simulate buffs by party wizard).

I'll build a single level 20 arcane fullcaster, and we'll set all three against my caster.

The caster will also start with 2 buff spells of his choosing, chosen from his spell list. Spells for those slots will be expended.

All characters will be assumed to be aware of combat (no surprise round). All buffs will be secretly chosen. This means I won't know yours, you won't know mine.

Any WotC published source will be legal, though to mitigate cheese, I will avoid using the Celerity line or the Shivering Touch line of spells.

Think you're up to it? Think the 3 mage slayers can take 1 mage at level 20?

[Turcano]

You may want to talk a look through the spells listed by TLN in his guide and ask your self a) how you will deal with them being cast upon you, and b) if that is something you can do reliably.

Well, most of the really nasty spells that don't allow a save are either enchantment, which are blocked by Blank Thoughts, or necromancy, which are blocked by death ward or a scarab of protection. Maw of chaos is the only real stickler.


I didn't say anybody posited it was the best; I don't mind if a build is not the "best". I am simply wondering if (and if so, how) it is better than a similar build with a full BAB class, or with sneak attack.

The build would need high saves and a high touch AC. I'm having trouble getting those up with a monk; it would be even harder to do it with another class.

[Talic]

Well, most of the really nasty spells that don't allow a save are either enchantment, which are blocked by Blank Thoughts, or necromancy, which are blocked by death ward or a scarab of protection. Maw of chaos is the only real stickler.



The build would need high saves and a high touch AC. I'm having trouble getting those up with a monk; it would be even harder to do it with another class.

Paladin 2 or Blackguard 2 could do it. Cha bonus to saves is pretty good.

Assume 14 cha, 10 con, 14 dex, 14 wis, 14 str, 10 int
5 stat boosts to cha (19 cha)
+5 cloak of resistance/ add in +6 cha
+1 Cha Book
+6 dex item
+6 con item/add +6 wis

Final stats: 26 cha, 16 con, 20 dex, 20 wis

Before adding in a single base save to the equation, I have
Fort: +16 (+5 cloak, +3 con, +8 cha)
Ref: +18 (+5 cloak, +5 dex, +8 cha)
Will: +18 (+5 cloak, +5 wis, +8 cha)

After the save for 2 levels of paladin:
Fort: +19, Ref +18, Will: +18

That's WBL and 2 class levels. Go from there.

Heck, add in monk afterwards. +5 dex, +5 wis isn't shabby for AC, add in a ring of protection +5, and you have a pretty decent touch AC (29), on top of those saves.

Heck, if we go human, and take Paladin 2/Monk 1, and choose the following feats: Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes (1st, human, and 3rd, respectively), we're now up to:
Fort: +23, Ref +22, Will +22.

Add 17 more levels, have fun kids.

[Solo]

Think you're up to it? Think the 3 mage slayers can take 1 mage at level 20?

How many point buy?

And does the Aura of Despair from Paladin of Tyranny and Blackguard stack? Same name, same effect, but from different sources.

[Turcano]

Paladin 2 or Blackguard 2 could do it. Cha bonus to saves is pretty good.

Okay; adding two paladin levels and finangling the stats results in this:


Human Paladin 2/Monk 13/Occult Slayer 5
Medium Humanoid (Human)
HD 18d8+2d10+80, hp 176
Init +11; Speed 70ft./x4
AC 39 (+8 armor, +7 Dex, +7 Wis, +5 deflection, +3 monk), touch 31, flat-footed 32
Base Attack/Grapple +16/+18
Full Attack +22/+22/+22/+17/+12/+7 (2d8+6, 20/x2, +4 adamantine defending ki focus gauntlets)
SA & SQ: Armor restriction, aura of good, detect evil, smite evil, divine grace, lay on hands, AC bonus (Ex), flurry of blows (Ex), improved evasion (Ex), fast movement (Ex), still mind (Ex), ki strike (Su), slow fall 60 ft. (Ex), purity of body (Ex), wholeness of body (Su), diamond body (Su), abundant step (Su), diamond soul (Ex), quivering palm (Su), magical defense (Ex), weapon bond (Su), mind over magic (Su), vicious strike (Ex), auravision (Su), nondetection cloak (Su), blank thoughts (Ex)
SR 23, Alignment LG
Fort +27, Ref +27, Will +31
Str 15 (+2), Dex 25 (+7), Con 19 (+4), Int 10 (+0), Wis 24 (+7), Cha 18 (+4)
Skills: Balance +26, Climb +5, Escape Artist +20, Jump +37, Knowledge (arcana) +5, Listen +14, Spellcraft +7, Spot +17, Tumble +24
Feats: Adaptable Flanker, Blind-Fight, Improved Disarm, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, Pierce Magical Protection, Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Vexing Flanker

Important Equipment: +4 adamantine defending ki focus gauntlet (x2) (150,000 gp), Bracers of armor +8 (64,000 gp), Cloak of Resistance +5 and (49,000 gp), Monk's Belt (13,000 gp), Gloves of Dexterity +6 (36,000 gp), Ring of Protection +5 (50,000 gp), Headband of Wisdom +6 (custom item) (36,000 gp), Amulet of Health +6 (36,000 gp), Manual of Gainful Exercise +2 (55,000 gp), Manual of Quickness of Action +2 (55,000 gp), Manual of Bodily Health +2 (55,000 gp), Tome of Understanding +2 (55,000 gp), stone of good luck (20,000 gp), pale green ioun stone (20,000 gp)

Disposable Wealth: 66,000 gp

[Reel On, Love]

Try Hexblade 3/Monk 12, instead. You get Mettle and CHA to saves vs. spells.

In fact, lose more monk. Screw flurry. You want room for things like Cleric 1 (Pride domain lets you not reroll nat. 1s on saves) and a Crusader dip, to get Thicket of Blades (hopefully beaitng Tumble), and combine that with a reach weapon and Stand Still or Imp. Trip.
Get a Vest of the Iron Heart or a Warblade level for Wall of Blades, to help vs. rays.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

And does the Aura of Despair from Paladin of Tyranny and Blackguard stack? Same name, same effect, but from different sources.

RAW, no. You listed the reason yourself.

[Griffin131]

Actually, Dimension Door does not allow any actions to be used at all after used. Thus, if you Dimension door, or if an item Dim Door's for you, you may not flurry afterwards.
Not true. Spoilering the spell:
You instantly transfer yourself from your current location to any other spot within range. You always arrive at exactly the spot desired—whether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction. After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn. You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn’t exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you.

If you arrive in a place that is already occupied by a solid body, you and each creature traveling with you take 1d6 points of damage and are shunted to a random open space on a suitable surface within 100 feet of the intended location.

If there is no free space within 100 feet, you and each creature traveling with you take an additional 2d6 points of damage and are shunted to a free space within 1,000 feet. If there is no free space within 1,000 feet, you and each creature travelling with you take an additional 4d6 points of damage and the spell simply fails.
I bolded the relevant section.

First, the spell says you cannot take actions after your arrival. Then it spells out that you can bring others. It never spells out that those others are similarly limited. Since the word "you" is used, and not the word "anyone", only the caster cannot take actions.

[Nebo_]

Not true. Spoilering the spell:
You instantly transfer yourself from your current location to any other spot within range. You always arrive at exactly the spot desired—whether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction. After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn. You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn’t exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you.

If you arrive in a place that is already occupied by a solid body, you and each creature traveling with you take 1d6 points of damage and are shunted to a random open space on a suitable surface within 100 feet of the intended location.

If there is no free space within 100 feet, you and each creature traveling with you take an additional 2d6 points of damage and are shunted to a free space within 1,000 feet. If there is no free space within 1,000 feet, you and each creature travelling with you take an additional 4d6 points of damage and the spell simply fails.
I bolded the relevant section.

First, the spell says you cannot take actions after your arrival. Then it spells out that you can bring others. It never spells out that those others are similarly limited. Since the word "you" is used, and not the word "anyone", only the caster cannot take actions.

It depends on your definition of 'using'. Does that mean 'make use of' or 'cast'

[The Rose Dragon]

I'd go for the former definition, since it makes sense rules-wise and literarily.

[Turcano]

Try Hexblade 3/Monk 12, instead. You get Mettle and CHA to saves vs. spells.

In fact, lose more monk. Screw flurry. You want room for things like Cleric 1 (Pride domain lets you not reroll nat. 1s on saves) and a Crusader dip, to get Thicket of Blades (hopefully beaitng Tumble), and combine that with a reach weapon and Stand Still or Imp. Trip.
Get a Vest of the Iron Heart or a Warblade level for Wall of Blades, to help vs. rays.

I don't have access to Tome of Battle, but the rest of your advice sounds good.

What I have so far:


Human Hexblade 3/Monk 9/Occult Slayer 5/Cleric 1/Incarnate 2
Medium Humanoid (Human)
HD 15d8+5d10+80, hp 179
Init +11; Speed 60ft./x4
AC 39 (+8 armor, +7 Dex, +7 Wis, +5 deflection, +3 monk), touch 31, flat-footed 32
Base Attack/Grapple +16/+19
Full Attack +25/+20/+15/+10 (2d4+9 +1d6 vs. casters +1 Con, 19-20/x2, +5 adamantine keen wounding spiked chain)
SA & SQ: Armor restriction, elemental affinity (air & earth) (Ex), detect imbalance (Sp), smite extremist (Su), divine grace (Su), elemental burst (Su), hexblade's curse (Su), arcane resistance (Su), mettle (Ex), spontaneous casting, restricted spells, domains (pride, X), turn undead (Su), AC bonus (Ex), flurry of blows (Ex), improved evasion (Ex), fast movement (Ex), still mind (Ex), ki strike (Su), slow fall 40 ft. (Ex), purity of body (Ex), wholeness of body, magical defense (Ex), weapon bond (Su), mind over magic (Su), vicious strike (Ex), auravision (Su), nondetection cloak (Su), blank thoughts (Ex)
Alignment N
Fort +28/+35, Ref +26/+33, Will +34/+41
Str 16 (+3), Dex 24 (+7), Con 19 (+4), Int 10 (+0), Wis 24 (+7), Cha 18 (+4)
Skills: Balance +23, Climb +6, Escape Artist +22, Jump +32, Knowledge (arcana) +6, Listen +14, Spellcraft +15, Tumble +22
Feats: Blind-Fight, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, Hold The Line, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, Pierce Magical Protection, Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus (spiked chain)

Important Equipment: +5 adamantine keen wounding spiked chain (133,000 gp), Bracers of armor +8 (64,000 gp), Cloak of Resistance +5 and (49,000 gp), Monk's Belt (13,000 gp), Gloves of Dexterity +6 (36,000 gp), Ring of Protection +5 (50,000 gp), Headband of Wisdom +6 (custom item) (36,000 gp), Amulet of Health +6 (36,000 gp), Manual of Gainful Exercise +2 (55,000 gp), Manual of Quickness of Action +2 (55,000 gp), Manual of Bodily Health +2 (55,000 gp), Tome of Understanding +2 (55,000 gp), stone of good luck (20,000 gp), pale green ioun stone (20,000 gp)

Disposable Wealth: 85,000 gp

[Oslecamo]

Need ToB maneuvers in a free and legal way?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a

Here. Kindly provided by Wotc. remember that you can get a maneuver as an once per battle power with a feat, and with another feat you can get a stance from a school you already have a maneuver from.

Ticket of blades is from Devoted spirit school if I'm not mistaken.

Your iniator lv equals half your non ToB levels plus your ToB levels, and you need an iniator level equal to (stance/maneuver lv x2)-1 to learn it.

[Roog]

His budget in his post is improperly done.

Using his character, say at level 2, wherein you state that potions can suffice, since UMD isn't reliable yet. Of the 14 encounters, let's say 11 are combat, requiring a 50gp potion. Let's say out of combat, you use a total of 14 charges on a standard level 1 wand, also. You've now spent 560 gp in treasure. When doing those 14 encounters you get, say 2000 gp in treasure, according to the table. Let's say, at level 3, you're supposed to have an extra 1700 gp over where you started. Because you spent more in disposable income, you only have 1,440 gp over. Thus, because you blew through your WBL like a fat kid in a gingerbread house, you're 260gp behind.

No amount of writing (cumulative) after your wand allocation will alter the fact that, if you overuse disposable items in a campaign that is played by RAW treasure dispersion (as outlined on DMG 51), you WILL fall behind in WBL. No amount of arguing, distorting the truth, or anything else will change that. It is proven mathematical fact, and any disagreement with it is wrong. No matter how you phrase that disagreement, it is wrong.

(900 +1900 - 100) > (900 +1900 -500)

1000 is starting wealth for a level x character.
1900 is treasure gained over 1 level of adventuring.
Final number represents 2 different characters who spend different amounts on disposable wealth.

The first set of numbers represent the person who spends 100gp on disposable items, while the second represents the person who spends 500gp.

Are you seriously trying to argue that character 2 up there should have the same amount as character 1? Are you saying that the above formula (which is mathematically sound) is wrong?

If so, there are about 4,000 years of mathematicians that seem to disagree with you.


While he will (most likely) fall behind WBL in actual play, that is entirely irrelevant for character creation. The rules for Creating PCs Above First Level do not take character history into account in any way. The character could have never spent a GP in their life, or have been a total wastrel, but for those rules it would have no effect on starting wealth.

Once the character is in play, then, he is free to bankrupt himself.


As for those mathmaticians, I'm sure that they will tell you, that just because your working is sound does not mean that it applies to the problem at hand.
Unless Sir Giacomo et al have been secretly playing those characters since level 1, then they are Creating PCs Above First Level.

[Griffin131]

Unless Sir Giacomo et al have been secretly playing those characters since level 1, then they are Creating PCs Above First Level.
The guide and level by level breakdown are for tips on how to progress. So, essentially, Sir Giacomo is telling everyone what their builds should look like at every level, meaning they would be played form 1-20. So his calculations are entirely relevant.

[Kurald Galain]

While he will (most likely) fall behind WBL in actual play, that is entirely irrelevant for character creation. The rules for Creating PCs Above First Level do not take character history into account in any way.

Actually, that is very much relevant, because it means that if you take his build at level X and use it in actual play, after leveling up you will not end up with his listed build at level X+1.

In other words, that means that the build is not suited for actual gameplay. Then again, most of us already knew that. A build that is workable at,say, level 15 but has no practical means of actually reaching that level is completely useless in any game that starts at a lower level (i.e. most games).

[Griffin131]

It depends on your definition of 'using'. Does that mean 'make use of' or 'cast'
So the "you" implies anyone who is a target of this spell?

Be careful... apply that to the next sentence.

[Solo]

Here's my incomplete build

Hexadin

Hexblade 10/Paladin of Tyranny 2/Blackguard 3/Occult Slayer 5

Bab: 20/15/10/5

Base Saves:
Fort 9
Ref 5
Will 11
Cha mod x3 to saves, +3 to saves from Magical Defense, +5 Cloak of Resistance

Skills/Ranks:
Bluff
Concentration
Craft
Diplomacy
Handel Animal
Heal
Hide: 5 (10 ranks)
Intimidate
K. Arcana 14
K. Nobility and Royalty
K. Religion 2
Profession
Ride
Sense Motive
Spellcraft 20 +2 synergy


From Hexblade:
Greater Hexblade's Curse 3/day
Arcane Resistance
Mettle
Dark Companion

Spells:
Expeditious Retreat
Entropic Warding
Phantom Threat
Unseen Servant

Alter Self
Mirrow Image
Resist Energy

Spells/day
1/1/
Known:
4/3

From Paladin of Tyranny
Smite Good 1/day
Deadly Touch

From Blackguard
Dark Blessing
Aura of Despair
Smite Good 1/day
Spells: 1/0
Blade of Blood

?

Occult Slayer:
Magical Defense +3
Weapon Bond 1d6
Mind over Magic 2/day (Spell turning)
Vicious Strike
Auravision
Nondetection Cloak
Blank Thoughts

10 Feats:
Combat Casting
Spell Penetration
Power Attack
Cleave
Improved Sunder
Improved Initiative
Weapon Focus
Battle Caster [Medium]
?
?

Items:
760,000
Left: 6120 (+98280?)

Hand of Glory 8,000
Ring of Protection +5 50,000 (Equipped)
Ring of Spell Turning 98,280 (Maybe, maybe not)
Ring of Telekinesis 75,000 (Equipped)
Ring of Freedom of Movement 40,000 (Equipped)
Ring of Feather Falling 2,200
Handy Haversack 2,000
Hat of Disguise 1,800
Cloak of Resistance +5 25,000
Tome of Leadership and Influence +5 137,500
Winged Boots 16,000
Belt of Magnificience +6 200,000
Rod of Cancellation 11,000
Rod of Negation 37,000
Mithral Full Plate of Speed +1 Full Plate 26,500
Scarab of Protection 38,000


I need suggestions on two feats, some items, a weapon, and armor.

[SamTheCleric]

Am I missing something... why dont you have freedom of movement? Solid Fog/Acid Fog... they tend to hurt those who don't have FoM.

[Oslecamo]

Don't you have too many rings? Even with hand of glory you can only carry 3 total, but your inventory has 5.

[Solo]

Don't you have too many rings? Even with hand of glory you can only carry 3 total, but your inventory has 5.

The Ring of Feather Falling is for if I suddenly find myself 10000 feet up in the air and no means of flying, the ring of Spell Turning might be liquidated for money, but if I keep it, I'll use it after my Occult Slayer spell turning is used up.

[Roog]

Actually, that is very much relevant, because it means that if you take his build at level X and use it in actual play, after leveling up you will not end up with his listed build at level X+1.

In other words, that means that the build is not suited for actual gameplay. Then again, most of us already knew that. A build that is workable at,say, level 15 but has no practical means of actually reaching that level is completely useless in any game that starts at a lower level (i.e. most games).

Sir Giacomo thinks that his build has a reasonable budget for expendables. Whether he does or not (IMO) depends on the rate that he uses those expendables in the game.
However, he has not stated his assumptions on how he estimates a characters available wealth (rather than WBL), although he has (implictly) stated his result - that the character has standard WBL available at each level. In most level-by-level builds this would be fine, but as he uses more consumables that many characters, it comes into question for this build.
He has also not given a estimated schedule for how he will use his consumables by level, or played the character enough to give a usefull test of the rate that consumables are used by the build.
We could probe his WBL assumptions as Chosen_of_Vecna was attempting to do (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4348386&postcount=583) and create a consumables schedule (and then discover that it presuades him of nothing when he answers "A" to all questions).
I suspect that his budget may balance better in actual play, where (IMO) he won't have the opportunities to expend as much of his consumables as his description of this characters tactics would suggest.

[Kurald Galain]

Sir Giacomo thinks that his build has a reasonable budget for expendables. Whether he does or not (IMO) depends on the rate that he uses those expendables in the game.

Well, he has stated that he will be using Heroism and Splendor wands to improve his charisma for using other wands, and plans on using Healing wands, Fog wands, Enlarge wands, Holy Sword wands and some other buff wands during encounters. More importantly, without these buffs his character simply doesn't perform.

So he has the choice of (1) being ineffective, or (2) spending a lot of cash and enough time that combat will probably be over before he finishes to buff, and then being somewhat effective.

[Roog]

So he has the choice of (1) being ineffective, or (2) spending a lot of cash and enough time that combat will probably be over before he finishes to buff, and then being somewhat effective.

Both those options leave him as ineffective regardless of whether he has overspent or not. Sir Giacomo would say he has a third option (3) cast the stuff he needs in the time that his style of play creates before combat; the question of budget is only important for success/failure of the build if he really does have option 3.

I agree that getting the effect of consumables expenditure on available WBL is important, but in this situation either side presudading the other that the build succeeds/fails even with standard WBL would be an impressive accomplishment.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I agree that getting the effect of consumables expenditure on available WBL is important, but in this situation either side presudading the other that the build succeeds/fails even with standard WBL would be an impressive accomplishment.


No, that is not very impressive at all.
It is not difficult to make a character that is effective in one combat if you have standard WBL to spend.
You could make anything viable as long as you do not have to worry about the next encounter.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

1) Talic? Why on Earth would your Wizard have only two buffs up? For starters you should have all hour/level buffs up, since those have a duration in excess of 20 hours for any level 20 Wizard.

2) Mage Slayers: If you can get casting of second level spells, you should think about Monk levels, and then taking Asectic Mage to get Cha to AC in place of Wisdom. Then pump Charisma. Also take note of Force of Personality for Cha in place of Wis to Will saves, and Fist of the Forest.

My build would be something like: Monk 2/Hexblade 4/Blackguard X/Fist of the Forest 1/More of the above/Occult Slayer 5.

Maybe in the form of a Grig. So that's Cha to AC twice, Con to AC once, Cha to saves twice against spells, and for will saves.

Ridiculous saves, huge Cha, and UMD. Then you can be an unarmed fighter/grappler of casters. Probably go Dragonborn on top of race for wings.

[Solo]

1) Talic? Why on Earth would your Wizard have only two buffs up? For starters you should have all hour/level buffs up, since those have a duration in excess of 20 hours for any level 20 Wizard.

2) Mage Slayers: If you can get casting of second level spells, you should think about Monk levels, and then taking Asectic Mage to get Cha to AC in place of Wisdom. Then pump Charisma. Also take note of Force of Personality for Cha in place of Wis to Will saves, and Fist of the Forest.

My build would be something like: Monk 2/Hexblade 4/Blackguard X/Fist of the Forest 1/More of the above/Occult Slayer 5.

Maybe in the form of a Grig. So that's Cha to AC twice, Con to AC once, Cha to saves twice against spells, and for will saves.

Ridiculous saves, huge Cha, and UMD. Then you can be an unarmed fighter/grappler of casters. Probably go Dragonborn on top of race for wings.

And we'd still lose, horribly.

[Kurald Galain]

(3) cast the stuff he needs in the time that his style of play creates before combat; the question of budget is only important for success/failure of the build if he really does have option 3.

Since his so-called style of play (which really isn't, since he himself doesn't play characters like this either) does not "create [time] before combat" except in highly contrived and unlikely situations, that point is rather moot.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Indeed. Just...Otto's.

[Azerian Kelimon]

If you don't have protection from level drain yet, get it, then get something to make yourself resistant to Elemental damage (Like that spell that gave you up to 150 points of absorption to one element), so that orbs don't work.

Maw of chaos will still call you Mary and make you wear that pink dress, though.

[Roog]

No, that is not very impressive at all.
It is not difficult to make a character that is effective in one combat if you have standard WBL to spend.
You could make anything viable as long as you do not have to worry about the next encounter.

Anyone persuading Sir Giacomo that he is wrong about this build would be an impressive accomplishment.

Sir Giacomo persuading those that disagree with him that he is actually right would be an impressive accomplishment.


As for WBL, while he is overspending, I estimate that he has only overspent by ~386kGP by level 20*, and so if he reduced his total expendiure by about 25% he would be OK. But that would require him to rework is equipment list and keep this thing going for even longer.

*By level 20 he should have ~760kGP WBL + ~231kGP excess gained weath normally assumed to be spent on consumables. At level 20 he lists ~481kGP wealth and ~896kGP cumulative consumable budget (303kGP allocated at that level specifically).

[Roog]

Since his so-called style of play (which really isn't, since he himself doesn't play characters like this either) does not "create [time] before combat" except in highly contrived and unlikely situations, that point is rather moot.

Isn't that supposedly the point of this build? He thinks that this build will have adequate time to get buffs up?

[Worira]

His budget in his post is improperly done.

Using his character, say at level 2, wherein you state that potions can suffice, since UMD isn't reliable yet. Of the 14 encounters, let's say 11 are combat, requiring a 50gp potion. Let's say out of combat, you use a total of 14 charges on a standard level 1 wand, also. You've now spent 560 gp in treasure. When doing those 14 encounters you get, say 2000 gp in treasure, according to the table. Let's say, at level 3, you're supposed to have an extra 1700 gp over where you started. Because you spent more in disposable income, you only have 1,440 gp over. Thus, because you blew through your WBL like a fat kid in a gingerbread house, you're 260gp behind.

No amount of writing (cumulative) after your wand allocation will alter the fact that, if you overuse disposable items in a campaign that is played by RAW treasure dispersion (as outlined on DMG 51), you WILL fall behind in WBL. No amount of arguing, distorting the truth, or anything else will change that. It is proven mathematical fact, and any disagreement with it is wrong. No matter how you phrase that disagreement, it is wrong.

(900 +1900 - 100) > (900 +1900 -500)

1000 is starting wealth for a level x character.
1900 is treasure gained over 1 level of adventuring.
Final number represents 2 different characters who spend different amounts on disposable wealth.

The first set of numbers represent the person who spends 100gp on disposable items, while the second represents the person who spends 500gp.

Are you seriously trying to argue that character 2 up there should have the same amount as character 1? Are you saying that the above formula (which is mathematically sound) is wrong?

If so, there are about 4,000 years of mathematicians that seem to disagree with you.

No, I'm saying that he does end up behind WBL. That's why he only has 400K-ish gp of permanent items. He doesn't spend 300k-ish on wands at level 20, he spends it on wands over the entire build. So his actual wealth at level 20 ends up being 600k-ish. Obviously, this is all assuming his listed budget is correct, which it may well not be.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Anyone persuading Sir Giacomo that he is wrong about this build would be an impressive accomplishment.

Sir Giacomo persuading those that disagree with him that he is actually right would be an impressive accomplishment.

:smallamused:



As for WBL, while he is overspending, I estimate that he has only overspent by ~386kGP by level 20*, and so if he reduced his total expendiure by about 25% he would be OK. But that would require him to rework is equipment list and keep this thing going for even longer.

*By level 20 he should have ~760kGP WBL + ~231kGP excess gained weath normally assumed to be spent on consumables. At level 20 he lists ~481kGP wealth and ~896kGP cumulative consumable budget (303kGP allocated at that level specifically).


I have not checked your numbers, but it is worth noting that as long as WBL is rising faster than your consumption it becomes easier and easier to meet the WBL requirements as levels progress.
Making ends meet at level 20 does not prove feasibility at levels 1-19.

[kjones]

Um, not to rain on the mage-killing build parades, but when exactly did we leave core? The Giamonk is, among other things, core-only... any meaningful comparisons should also be restricted to core.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Um, not to rain on the mage-killing build parades, but when exactly did we leave core? The Giamonk is, among other things, core-only... any meaningful comparisons should also be restricted to core.

When we realized that without splatbooks, this is not even a contest, as the wizard just Otto's everyone and is done.

[Roog]

No, I'm saying that he does end up behind WBL. That's why he only has 400K-ish gp of permanent items. He doesn't spend 300k-ish on wands at level 20, he spends it on wands over the entire build. So his actual wealth at level 20 ends up being 600k-ish. Obviously, this is all assuming his listed budget is correct, which it may well not be.

His level 20 wealth includes ~480kGP of items and ~300kGP of wand budget. If this is over WBL by 20kGP and under WBL + wealth assumed normally spent on consumables by over 200kGP. If this is an additional 300kGP to spent on wands then he is over WBL by ~617kGP and over WBL + wealth assumed normally spent on consumables by ~386kGP.

[Worira]

As for WBL, while he is overspending, I estimate that he has only overspent by ~386kGP by level 20*, and so if he reduced his total expendiure by about 25% he would be OK. But that would require him to rework is equipment list and keep this thing going for even longer.

*By level 20 he should have ~760kGP WBL + ~231kGP excess gained weath normally assumed to be spent on consumables. At level 20 he lists ~481kGP wealth and ~896kGP cumulative consumable budget (303kGP allocated at that level specifically).

No, he has 303kgp cumulative consumable budget. Hence why it's listed as cumulative.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Um, not to rain on the mage-killing build parades, but when exactly did we leave core? The Giamonk is, among other things, core-only... any meaningful comparisons should also be restricted to core.

Please meat my Wizard 15/Archmage 5 with a mastery of shaping AMF while flying with overland flight and invisible. Also, my Arcane Reached True Striked Irresistible Dance.

Seriously, in Core, a Wizard can actually just completely negate every single melee attack not made by a race with non-magical flight at level 13. So you better be a Ranger Fighter based on ranged combat. Since of course he also completely negates SA too.

[Solo]

Hexadin

Hexblade 10/Paladin of Tyranny 2/Blackguard 3/Occult Slayer 5
-4 caster level

Bab: 20/15/10/5

Str 14/20 +5
Dex 14/20 +5
Con 14/20 +5
Int 10/16 +3
Wis 10/16 +3
Cha 26/32 +11

Base Saves:
Fort 9
Ref 5
Will 11
Cha mod x3 to saves, +3 to saves from Magical Defense, +5 Cloak of Resistance

Skills/Ranks:
Bluff 5
Concentration
Craft
Diplomacy +2 synergy
Handel Animal
Heal
Hide: 5 (10 ranks)
Intimidate +2 synergy
K. Arcana 14
K. Nobility and Royalty
K. Religion 2
Profession
Ride
Sense Motive
Spellcraft 15 +2 synergy


From Hexblade:
Greater Hexblade's Curse 3/day
Arcane Resistance
Mettle
Dark Companion

Spells:
Expeditious Retreat
Entropic Warding
Phantom Threat
Unseen Servant

Alter Self
Mirror Image
Resist Energy

Arcane Sight
Nondetection

Spells/day
1+3/1+3/0+3
Known:
4/3/2



From Paladin of Tyranny
Smite Good 1/day
Deadly Touch

From Blackguard
Dark Blessing
Aura of Despair
Smite Good 1/day
Spells: 1
Blade of Blood
Inflict Light Wounds


Occult Slayer:
Magical Defense +3
Weapon Bond 1d6
Mind over Magic 2/day (Spell turning)
Vicious Strike
Auravision
Nondetection Cloak
Blank Thoughts

10 Feats:
Combat Casting
Spell Penetration
Power Attack
Cleave
Improved Sunder
Improved Initiative
Weapon Focus
Battle Caster [Medium]
Combat Reflexes
Mage Slayer

Items:
760,000


Hand of Glory 8,000
Ring of Protection +5 50,000
Ring of Telekinesis 75,000
Ring of Freedom of Movement 40,000
Ring of Feather Falling 2,200
Handy Haversack 2,000
Hat of Disguise 1,800

Tome of Leadership and Influence +5 137,500
Winged Boots 16,000
Belt of Magnificience +6 200,000
Rod of Cancellation 11,000
Rod of Negation 37,000
Cloak of the Bat 26,000
Scarab of Protection 38,000
Potion of Enlarge Person 50
Gem of Seeing 75,000
Tanglefoot Bagx4 200

Ghost Touch(+2) Guisarm 8,000
Mithral Full Plate of Speed +1 Full Plate 26,500

Potion of Displacementx2 1500
Potion of Cure Critical Wounds x10 7500
GMW +5 oil 3,000
Resist Energy (1 Fire, 1 Acid, 1 Cold, 1 Lightening, 1 Sonic) 30 5,500
24000 left

Spells I want: Greater Heorism, Greater Blink.

[Roog]

I have not checked your numbers, but it is worth noting that as long as WBL is rising faster than your consumption it becomes easier and easier to meet the WBL requirements as levels progress.
Making ends meet at level 20 does not prove feasibility at levels 1-19.

Assuming that the Wand Budget is new expenditure each level (and that his weath normaly assumed to be spent on consumables is part of that expenditure), then at a glance he is over budget each level, but not by too large a percentage (I would guess that 20th would be at the higher end of the % overspend).

[Azerian Kelimon]

Please meat my Wizard 15/Archmage 5 with a mastery of shaping AMF while flying with overland flight and invisible. Also, my Arcane Reached True Striked Irresistible Dance.

Seriously, in Core, a Wizard can actually just completely negate every single melee attack not made by a race with non-magical flight at level 13. So you better be a Ranger Fighter based on ranged combat. Since of course he also completely negates SA too.

And if you're an archer, the wizard casts Wind Wall and goes "LOLN00B!" as he attacks you from behind the wind wall, immune to all your tricks.

We make a nice team, heh. It's really too easy! :smalltongue:

[Roog]

No, he has 303kgp cumulative consumable budget. Hence why it's listed as cumulative.

There are two ways to read what he has written, cumulative and cumulative.

Either way the numbers don't quite add up (I think), but the way you are reading it comes out closer to standard WBL. I just want to be sure that Sir Giacomo meant what you think he meant.

[Solo]

I envision the match going like this:

Solo: We have found a witch, may we burn her?
Turcano: Indeed, let us set forth.

*Enters dungeon*
Solo: All your dungeon are belong to us.
*Meteor Swarm*
Solo: What happen?
Turcano: Someone set us up the Fireball!
Talic: How are you gentlemen?
Solo: Is you!
Talic: You are on the way to destruction.
Solo: What you say?
Talic: You have no chance to survive, make your time
Talic: Ha ha ha...

Solo: Launch Attack!
Solo: You know what you are doing!
Solo: For Great Justice!

Turcano: This is madness!
Solo: Madness? THIS IS *Cut off by various deadly spells*

Talic: You were unwise to lower your defenses!

[elliott20]

I envision the match going like this:

Solo: We have found a witch, may we burn her?
Turcano: Indeed, let us set forth.

*Enters dungeon*
Solo: All your dungeon are belong to us.
*Meteor Swarm*
Solo: What happen?
Turcano: Someone set us up the Fireball!
Talic: How are you gentlemen?
Solo: Is you!
Talic: You are on the way to destruction.
Solo: What you say?
Talic: You have no chance to survive, make your time
Talic: Ha ha ha...

Solo: Launch Attack!
Solo: You know what you are doing!
Solo: For Great Justice!

Turcano: This is madness!
Solo: Madness? THIS IS *Cut off by various deadly spells*

Talic: You were unwise to lower your defenses!

I read a battle power of over 9000 on my meme meter!

[Oslecamo]

Please meat my Wizard 15/Archmage 5 with a mastery of shaping AMF while flying with overland flight and invisible. Also, my Arcane Reached True Striked Irresistible Dance.

Seriously, in Core, a Wizard can actually just completely negate every single melee attack not made by a race with non-magical flight at level 13. So you better be a Ranger Fighter based on ranged combat. Since of course he also completely negates SA too.

Magic, this is the jump skill. Jump skill, this is magic.

The melee guy is the ranged weapon.

[NEO|Phyte]

Magic, this is the jump skill. Jump skill, this is magic.

The melee guy is the ranged weapon.

Good luck hitting that DC 400 jump check to reach 100' up. You'll need it.

[Frosty]

Hmm...an item of Fly could help.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Hmm...an item of Fly could help.

Which will be really funny when you fly into the AMF field, and then fall out of it, never reaching the Wizard.

Oh yeah, and jump check? Are you serious? Yes, I'm sure the point of casting a flying spell was to hover 15ft off the ground, not to fly 60ft up and laugh.

[Frosty]

You just need enough momentum to keep on going up when you enter the AMF. Just because you lost your propulsion doesn't mean you lose your momentum. Or, get boots of air-walk. Make a nice, simple Jump Check when close to the AMF.

[Telonius]

You just need enough momentum to keep on going up when you enter the AMF. Just because you lost your propulsion doesn't mean you lose your momentum.

Good lord, are you trying to cause a catgirl massacre? :smallbiggrin:

[Frosty]

No catgirl is safe from my Rod of Science!

[Eldariel]

You just need enough momentum to keep on going up when you enter the AMF. Just because you lost your propulsion doesn't mean you lose your momentum. Or, get boots of air-walk. Make a nice, simple Jump Check when close to the AMF.

You could just have an eternally smoking bottle and make a DC 120 Balance-check to balance on the smoke cloud. You could even jump from a cloud to a cloud. Just strap it to your legs and you'll always have something to balance on.

[SamTheCleric]

... Immovable rods are your answer! Start falling? Activate the rod and grab hold!

[Frosty]

You could just have an eternally smoking bottle and make a DC 120 Balance-check to balance on the smoke cloud. You could even jump from a cloud to a cloud. Just strap it to your legs and you'll always have something to balance on.

What? Is this an EPIC use?

[Eldariel]

What? Is this an EPIC use?

It's Extra Powerful If Corny indeed.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Yep, that's an use, but honestly, if you do that, you're better of doing some "spelunking" on the wizard.

[Oslecamo]

Oh yeah, and jump check? Are you serious? Yes, I'm sure the point of casting a flying spell was to hover 15ft off the ground, not to fly 60ft up and laugh.

Very few battlefields are clean areas where you can fly up to 60 feet in the air and still get a clear shot at the enemy.

Trees, buildings, caves, dungeons, bad weather, they all make flying high while retaining combat ability impossible. So you'll have to fly down if you want to have line of sight to the melee. And since this is a 20th lv fight, the melee will be a moron if he doesn't have any anti inv item by now.

Altough the cloud jump looks like a very nice idea and surely will make the casters go WTF?

Or even simplier: get a flying mount. You'll get bonus points for coolness.:smalltongue:

[Gorbash]

Please meat my Wizard 15/Archmage 5 with a mastery of shaping AMF while flying with overland flight and invisible. Also, my Arcane Reached True Striked Irresistible Dance.

Seriously, in Core, a Wizard can actually just completely negate every single melee attack not made by a race with non-magical flight at level 13. So you better be a Ranger Fighter based on ranged combat. Since of course he also completely negates SA too.

But if you shape AMF so that it doesn't affect the square you're in, you just protected yourself from magical melee attacks, right...? Unfortunately, breath weapons, spells and such can still reach you (unless their point of origin is inside AMF)...

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

1) Yes it doesn't protect from everything, only melee attackers, which is exactly what I said.

2) Eversmoking Bottle/Immovable Rod are both magic items, which would stop working when you entered the AMF.

3) Oh I'm sorry, I was just going to stand around fighting your Mage Slayer build for no reason instead of flying up into the air and doing whatever I want.

You can't be a Mage Slayer if they can fly 60ft up in the air and do whatever they want, including cast Planar Binding to bring something up that can probably beat you in a fight since you of course dedicated yourself to being a Mage Slayer.

[Collin152]

1) Yes it doesn't protect from everything, only melee attackers, which is exactly what I said.

2) Eversmoking Bottle/Immovable Rod are both magic items, which would stop working when you entered the AMF.

3) Oh I'm sorry, I was just going to stand around fighting your Mage Slayer build for no reason instead of flying up into the air and doing whatever I want.

You can't be a Mage Slayer if they can fly 60ft up in the air and do whatever they want, including cast Planar Binding to bring something up that can probably beat you in a fight since you of course dedicated yourself to being a Mage Slayer.

Mmm, might be a tad difficult to do a planar binding in the air.
Delicate circling and all that.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Mmm, might be a tad difficult to do a planar binding in the air.
Delicate circling and all that.

It's not that big a deal if you summon something you can easily defeat, and it knows it. Also, use Alacritous Cognition for even more fun.

[Oslecamo]

It's not that big a deal if you summon something you can easily defeat, and it knows it. Also, use Alacritous Cognition for even more fun.

Planar biding takes 10 minutes to cast. It's a big deal.

Also since you kindly locked yourself up in the AMF there's no room to put the magic circle. Good work Batman, the joker manages to get whatever he wanted to get while you play with your gadgets.

And if we're going with summoning cheese, please, by all means, let me present you to my good friend, candle of invocation.

[mostlyharmful]

Planar biding takes 10 minutes to cast. It's a big deal, giving enough time for a bunch of comoners to kill you with rocks and natural 20s.

You're a wizard. You've got oodles of ways of controlling when you fight any one given mook. The only time this'd challenge you is if you're on a time budget and you haven't made any prearrainged deals with extraplaners yet.

[Oslecamo]

You're a wizard. You've got oodles of ways of controlling when you fight any one given mook. The only time this'd challenge you is if you're on a time budget and you haven't made any prearrainged deals with extraplaners yet.

I'm any character. I have time to prepare and must win at all costs. I buy a candle of invocation, start a wish loop and become pun-pun.

If you want to start an arms race, then the D&D universe will colapse before any one of us can win.

[mostlyharmful]

I'm any character. I have time to prepare and must win at all costs. I buy a candle of invocation, start a wish loop and become pun-pun.

If you want to start an arms race, then the D&D universe will colapse before any one of us can win.

Yes. Now please explain how using the basic class abilities of a core class which bases it's powers around the PCs intelligence being played non-suicidally is the same as candle of invocation cheese loops? It's one thing to use dirty tricks to break the game engine, it's anouther to get annoyed that the smart magic user uses magic smartly.:smallsmile:

[Saph]

I'm any character. I have time to prepare and must win at all costs. I buy a candle of invocation, start a wish loop and become pun-pun.

If you want to start an arms race, then the D&D universe will colapse before any one of us can win.

Yeah. This is why I don't think duels or power contests really work. It always turns into "who can abuse the rules more efficiently" and the other guy can usually one-up you by coming up with something even worse. (Remember the gigantic argument over Polymorph that followed the abortive monk PvP duel.)

The only two things stopping players from using any of D&D's many infinite loops are a) DM fiat and b) the fact that gaining maximum power at any cost isn't what they're playing the game for in the first place. If you take away both those restraints, the system falls apart quickly.

- Saph

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Planar biding takes 10 minutes to cast. It's a big deal.

Also since you kindly locked yourself up in the AMF there's no room to put the magic circle. Good work Batman, the joker manages to get whatever he wanted to get while you play with your gadgets.

And if we're going with summoning cheese, please, by all means, let me present you to my good friend, candle of invocation.

1) Which is why I said use Alacritous Cognition. Not that it matters because you can genuinely just wait ten minutes.

2) The shaped AMF that doesn't effect me?

3) Did I say anything about "the Joker?" No. I said, that a core only "mage slayer" competition was stupid. Because he can't get what he wants, because the only thing he wants is to kill you. Try not to confuse different conversations going on at once.

[Turcano]

2) Mage Slayers: If you can get casting of second level spells, you should think about Monk levels, and then taking Asectic Mage to get Cha to AC in place of Wisdom. Then pump Charisma. Also take note of Force of Personality for Cha in place of Wis to Will saves, and Fist of the Forest.

If I drop any more monk levels, I'll lose improved evasion, Is that trade-off worth it?


Indeed. Just...Otto's.

Otto's what? It makes a big difference.

Also, who's DMing this little contest? I need to ask him or her a rules question.

Anyway, updated build (and a name):


Clodpool the Monastic Mage-Mangler

Human Hexblade 3/Monk 9/Occult Slayer 5/Cleric 1/Incarnate 2
Medium Humanoid (Human)
HD 15d8+5d10+80, hp 179
Init +11; Speed 60ft./x4
AC 39 (+8 armor, +7 Dex, +7 Wis, +5 deflection, +3 monk), touch 31, flat-footed 32
Base Attack/Grapple +16/+19
Full Attack +27/+22/+17/+12 (2d4+9 +1d6 vs. casters, 19-20/x2, +5 adamantine keen spiked chain)
SA & SQ: Armor restriction, elemental affinity (air & earth) (Ex), detect imbalance (Sp), smite extremist (Su), divine grace (Su), elemental burst (Su), hexblade's curse (Su), arcane resistance (Su), mettle (Ex), spontaneous casting, restricted spells, domains (pride, charm), turn undead (Su), AC bonus (Ex), flurry of blows (Ex), improved evasion (Ex), fast movement (Ex), still mind (Ex), ki strike (Su), slow fall 40 ft. (Ex), purity of body (Ex), wholeness of body, magical defense (Ex), weapon bond (Su), mind over magic (Su), vicious strike (Ex), auravision (Su), nondetection cloak (Su), blank thoughts (Ex)
Alignment N
Fort +28/+35, Ref +26/+33, Will +34/+41
Str 16 (+3), Dex 24 (+7), Con 19 (+4), Int 10 (+0), Wis 24 (+7), Cha 18 (+4)
Skills: Balance +20, Climb +9, Escape Artist +20, Jump +28, Knowledge (arcana) +7, Spellcraft +25, Spot +18, Tumble +23
Feats: Blind-Fight, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain), Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Occult Opportunist, Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, Pierce Magical Protection, Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus (spiked chain)

Important Equipment: +5 adamantine keen spiked chain (75,000 gp), Bracers of Armor +8 (64,000 gp), Cloak of Resistance +5 and (49,000 gp), Monk's Belt (13,000 gp), Gloves of Dexterity +6 (36,000 gp), Ring of Protection +5 (50,000 gp), Headband of Wisdom +6 and Health +6 (custom item, X2.5) (90,000 gp), Scarab of Protection (38,000 gp), Winged Boots (16,000 gp), Manual of Gainful Exercise +2 (55,000 gp), Manual of Quickness of Action +2 (55,000 gp), Manual of Bodily Health +2 (55,000 gp), Tome of Understanding +2 (55,000 gp), stone of good luck (20,000 gp), pale green ioun stone (20,000 gp), Ring of Freedom of Movement (40,000 gp), Potion of Cure Serious Wounds x4 (3,000 gp), rod of cancellation (11,000 gp), light crossbow and bolts (14,846 gp), Quiver of Elhonna (1,800 gp), 2 tanglefoot bags (100 gp), 8 thunderstones (240 gp)

Disposable Wealth: 14 gp

[Talic]

1) Yes it doesn't protect from everything, only melee attackers, which is exactly what I said.

Doesn't protect from reach weapons, as they can fly outside of your bubble and whack.

But no, I never said core only. If they want the Occult Slayer PrC, go for it. I have SpC, I'm happy.

[Temp.]

I saw this on the gleemax boards and was going to post this earlier, but then I decided to read the (then) 12 pages of posts. Now that I'm done, it looks like everyone's finished talking about Giacomo's guide. I don't care; I already remade my account so I'm posting this anyway.

Giacomo, regarding the guide:

First, it doesn't help much with optimization. It seems more geared toward coping with the Monk class once you've given up on optimizing and have decided to just go Monk 20. This isn't what most people want when they look for a class handbook or playguide on this forum or on gleemax. They want to know how to make a good character, not how to prove that Monks can be played in a game setting.

Every aspect of your Monk philosophy would be improved by starting with a level of Rogue. Stealth? Improved. Trapfinding? Available. UMD? Full ranks. Speed? Just one level behind. Damage? Probably about the same, considering you only lose one level and gain 1d6 SA.
Your guide makes things difficult for impressionable readers by not pointing this out. It’s much easier to acknowledge that Monks comparatively suck with traps, damage and UMD and to just fix the problem than it is to jump a straight Monk through hoops to become almost competent. I find it troubling that your guide does not try to make Monks capable scouts or wand-users, when those are the strategies you support using. In fact, it doesn’t even mention the easy ways to get UMD onto a class skill list (and thus making the Giacomonk actually work).

You also pose D&D as a solo game (except when hitting up your buddies for buff spells). You don't seem to acknowledge that there is little benefit to being a generalist--you're in a group; if you can't do something, somebody else probably can. There is massive benefit to being a specialist; if your group needs something done, somebody can do it consistently and effectively. Your goal shouldn't be to generalize, it should be becoming really good at two or three specific things. Unfortunately, the Monk class doesn't do that on its own. It actually will take some effort.

So I would also recommend dividing your guide to cover some of those specific party uses. For example:
Scout: This one's easy. Take the Rogue dip and you're golden.
Utility Guy/Skillmonkey: This one isn't something you can do very well. You could just use UMD, but that consumes permanent resources. You should leave this one for somebody else with the skills or the renewable spells.
Battlefield Control: Take EWP: Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, possibly Weapon Finesse. Stunning Fist could help with the "control" aspect. This is something a straight Monk can do fairly well.
Damage-DealerA couple Monk levels followed by a quick multiclass into Fighter or Paladin could help for a Power Attacker. Or start with some Rogue levels and TWF. This isn't something a straight Monk can swing at all. It is something characters taking Monk-dips can do pretty effectively, though.
Party Face: Boosting Charisma is expensive and you won't be as good at Diplomacy as any Paladins/Rogues/Clerics/Druids/Bards your party might have. You also aren't going to be as good at Enchantments as the party Wizard/Sorcerer. You probably have the Ranger, Fighter and Barbarian trumped though.

An added benefit of the Rogue dip is that you can afford to drop your Charisma to typical Monk levels and still not completely suck at UMD. That means that you will probably be able to tank almost as well as a Fighter or Barbarian.

I would de-emphasize Grappling. As has been mentioned before, Grappling big scary monsters will get you eaten and Grappling members of larger groups will get you Sneak/Power-Attacked in the face. It is circumstantially useful (say, if you can get your hands on a Wizard who, for whatever reason, can't use Teleport or Dimension Door), but not enough to value it so highly.

Very little in your guide convincingly supports Monks. It seems like it could just as easily be a very specific guide for Fighters, Barbarians or Rogues as it is for Monks. Back when you were raving about Polymorph and Monks, you at least had a sort of a point--Monks do something different than other classes while under Polymorph effects. Whether they Polymorph *better* than Barbarians, Fighters or Rogues is up to debate, but they're at least different. Now you're basically writing about grapple, speed and your items. Haste (one of the few buffs that you might actually expect to see regularly due to its massive utility and multiple targets) narrows the gap between Monk and non-Monk speed during combat.

I would suggest modifying your guide to developing what Monks do have going for them that other classes don't; specifically extra attacks (that and improved speed are the only defining Monk abilities that I can recognize... and I don’t think speed is something you can expect to use ahead of time).
By adding either bonus damage (probably in the form of Sneak Attack or weapon enhancements) or different methods of disabling the baddies (disarm the gish of his sword and his component pouch, trip him and attempt a stun attack in a single round), the extra attacks can actually become useful. Using them to grapple or attack directly for their base damage + GMW + Str. isn't.

Also, I would recommend adding Haste to your spell list. It is one of the few spells to have a direct effect on combat before you start punching the baddies. Good Hope and Rage also do this, but they sort of suck. And you apparently missed the "Fortitude Save" part of Ghoul Touch; it's actually a pretty terrible wand.

And I don't like saying this but your guide isn’t very good as a character class handbook. It looks like you're trying to mirror the Logic Ninja’s guide, but you never get to the meat... y’know, the stuff people care about: spell selections, feat selections, item selections, race selections... that sort of thing. Instead, you show off one feebly optimized build and one set of equipment. I recommend you look at Dictum Mortuum’s guide to guide-writing if you do want to remake this into something people take seriously. You’ll also need to expand beyond the Core rules (where there isn’t enough freedom for build advice to matter all that much).

[Solo]

(disarm the gish of his sword and his component pouch, trip him and attempt a stun attack in a single round)

I don't know if that's possible, but that does sound interesting.

[Griffin131]

I don't know if that's possible, but that does sound interesting.

Its only 4 attacks, why wouldn't it be possible?

[Solo]

Hm, I suppose you could have your iterative attacks each do something different...

[Griffin131]

Hm, I suppose you could have your iterative attacks each do something different...
Are you being sarcastic? I cant tell. :(

[Reinboom]

He's been inactive for a long time, now. Anyone know what happened to him?

Busy/Dead Busy.
And his work comp changed protocols.

I get to only talk to him via a slow web based game. I miss my papa. :smallfrown:

--on (new) topic:

The place of battle is important.
Should the dungeon be randomly generated, or specifically generated to try to give some form of power to each character without making things unlimited to any single one? (Ie: make sure there's a high ceiling somewhere - but make damn sure that there is at least a ceiling)

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

1) I'm sorry everyone. My Core Wizard cheated when he cast spells. Casting spells is exactly like using infinite Wish cheese to become Pun-Pun. What was I thinking.

2) Actually, AMF + Flying does protect against reach weapons, but it doesn't protect against enlarged reach weapon wielders. Of course, all the Wizard needs is for his enemy to end within 60-120ft (depending on how much effort is put in) one time.

3) I am not arguing that Mage Slayers are impossible, I'm arguing that a Mage Slayer versus Wizard duel in Core only where the Wizard knows he is going to face a Mage Slayer before he builds his character is pointless.

4)"(disarm the gish of his sword and his component pouch, trip him and attempt a stun attack in a single round)"

I believe Solo's point is that you are now making:

1) An opposed attack role at a -8 against someone with a higher BAB and Str then you with multiple buffs.
2) An easy check that doesn't matter because he just uses his second one.
3) An opposed attack role against a higher BAB/Str character with multiple buffs up.
4) Forcing a Fort save on a character that:
a) could easily be immune to stunning.
b) has dipped into multiple good Fort save classes, in addition to having most of his levels in such classes.

So you have maybe one success, and that's it.

5) "If I drop any more monk levels, I'll lose improved evasion, Is that trade-off worth it?"

My theory is that with Cha to save 3-4 times and a good racial Cha bonus, that you won't fail on anything but a 1, and I'm not going to take 7 Monk levels for something that comes up only on 1/60 times (assuming all saves are equal, even though they aren't and Ref is the least used.)

[Oslecamo]

1) I'm sorry everyone. My Core Wizard cheated when he cast spells. Casting spells is exactly like using infinite Wish cheese to become Pun-Pun. What was I thinking.


Casting spells isn't cheating. Memorizing the entire MM and then use calling effects to bring creatures that are easily controled by the wizard but are tough nuts for the melees, thanks to you knowing their stats number by number, while claiming that the melee can't bring out his candle of invocation to counter your blatant metagaming, in the other hand, is cheating.

By using planar biding you're not proving that the Wizard is superior. You're just proving that there are strong monsters out there. It's the exact reason why candle of invocation is so broken.

This is, I could claim that my melee trains diplomacy/bluff, and turns everybody in the universe in his fanatical unquestionable servant.

If your wizard has all the time in the world to bind creatures, then it's only fair the melee has all the time in the world to talk to monsters to join his side.

But wait, since diplomancy can be used all day long, my melee will easily gather much more minions than your biding wizard, and win by sheer numbers.

[Griffin131]

Casting spells isn't cheating. Memorizing the entire MM and then use calling effects to bring creatures that are easily controled by the wizard but are tough nuts for the melees, thanks to you knowing their stats number by number, while claiming that the melee can't bring out his candle of invocation to counter your blatant metagaming, in the other hand, is cheating.
If I was a wizard, I'd be summoning and studying creatures during my spare time... just to find out what did what in the future. Not just as a source of potential minions, but also as a source of knowledge about possible future foes. If I summon something that is a fearsome melee opponent, but weak versus my spells... that means I just found a minion. Theres literally no metagaming about it.

[Solo]

Memorizing the entire MM and then use calling effects to bring creatures that are easily controled by the wizard but are tough nuts for the melees, thanks to you knowing their stats number by number, while claiming that the melee can't bring out his candle of invocation to counter your blatant metagaming, in the other hand, is cheating.

Well, then what does a wizard with 32 INT and 23 ranks in Knowledge: Arcana do?

[Griffin131]

Well, then what does a wizard with 32 INT and 23 ranks in Knowledge: Arcana do?
Stand in the middle of a room with no buffs, and memorize nothing but Magic Missles, Fireballs, and the like.

[Roog]

Well, then what does a wizard with 32 INT and 23 ranks in Knowledge: Arcana do?

The same thing he always does - cheats like mad and breaks the laws of physics.

[Rutee]

...Yeah it's kinda hard to say the high int character playing incredibly smart is being metagamey. I mean, I know full well that it's IC reasoning come up with after the fact to justify the OOC trope, but they've got a point on what their character would do. But then, this is OOC-motivated behavior done with the intent of breaking the game, so.. I'd have little mercy.

Edit:
More clearly, you're being completely IC, but also completely metagaming, with these kindsa statements. The two aren't really mutually exclusive. And the only reason I mind is that this metagaming is the kind of metagaming that'll break games, not 'cause it's metagaming.

[Griffin131]

...Yeah it's kinda hard to say the high int character playing incredibly smart is being metagamey. I mean, I know full well that it's IC reasoning come up with after the fact to justify the OOC trope, but they've got a point on what their character would do. But then, this is OOC-motivated behavior done with the intent of breaking the game, so.. I'd have little mercy.
I'm sorry, but what else is a supremely intelligent person supposed to do with their off time? Do you think people like Stephen Hawking only think about physics at work?

[Roog]

...Yeah it's kinda hard to say the high int character playing incredibly smart is being metagamey. I mean, I know full well that it's IC reasoning come up with after the fact to justify the OOC trope, but they've got a point on what their character would do. But then, this is OOC-motivated behavior done with the intent of breaking the game, so.. I'd have little mercy.

If that character can't play smart, then NPCs with less than half that INT better make their fair share of mistakes.

[Temp.]

1) An opposed attack role at a -8 against someone with a higher BAB and Str then you with multiple buffs.
2) An easy check that doesn't matter because he just uses his second one.
3) An opposed attack role against a higher BAB/Str character with multiple buffs up.
4) Forcing a Fort save on a character that:
a) could easily be immune to stunning.
b) has dipped into multiple good Fort save classes, in addition to having most of his levels in such classes.
1) The Disarms are toss-ups: 3/4 BAB with MAD-reduced Strength v. Partial BAB with MAD-reduced Strength. Unless you expect the Monk to try to disarm things with his bare hands.
B) This one has a better chance for the Monk but, as you say, it might not even matter. It can also act as a second try for the weapon.
III) BAB doesn't matter and Str is probably about the same for the two. Since the Monk in question was a suggestion for a Giacomonk, it's already hemorhaged its wallet into UMD. The buffs are probably about the same.
d.1) Most Gish have Heart of Water now-a-days, but there's always a chance...
iv.2) This is a toss-up again. (Slightly less than 2+1/2lvl+Con v. 1/2 lvl+Monk Wis)

None of it's reliable, but the alternative for a Monk is what, damage? With those puny fists and no bonus damage? With combinations of disabling attacks, the Monk can at least be a contributing party member.

Monk might make an interesting dip for a source-restricted Fighter if non-lawful alignment breaks the character concept. It wouldn't be something I'd advise, but it would sure beat the Fighter's level 13-20 class abilities.

[Solo]

None of it's reliable, but the alternative for a Monk is what, damage? With those puny fists and no bonus damage source?

WHAT!?!!??!

Monks have the best base damage in the game!

[Rutee]

I'm sorry, but what else is a supremely intelligent person supposed to do with their off time? Do you think people like Stephen Hawking only think about physics at work?

Nononoonono, don't even get started on that. It doesn't matter that you're being IC. You're still metagaming. You deliberately constructed your character in such a fashion as to allow an OOC desire to be made IC. Unlike some strange people whom I can't understand, I don't consider metagaming to be a bad thing by default. That's stupid; We're people. Do I really expect you (Or me, or anyone else) to hold a perfect line between themselves and their character? I can't expect perfect objectivity, and objectivity is far more important and critical in the course of life; of course I can't expect a perfect divider between IC and OOC. I look at the nature of the metagaming instead.. and this is the kind of metagaming that breaks games. Is it in character? Sure. But that's 'cause you constructed the character in such a way as to be so.

[Azerian Kelimon]

And of course, there's not even a need to do a planar binding or the like.

Three words: Maw of Chaos.

Say goodbye, sucker. And if that doesn't bring you down, a Timestop and a few delayed blast fireballs'll do the trick.

How humiliating can it be to be defeated by damage dealing spells?

[Oslecamo]

If I was a wizard, I'd be summoning and studying creatures during my spare time... just to find out what did what in the future. Not just as a source of potential minions, but also as a source of knowledge about possible future foes. If I summon something that is a fearsome melee opponent, but weak versus my spells... that means I just found a minion. Theres literally no metagaming about it.

Using what? Mormekdain's random summonings? Takeda's carefull study?

And as I said, then the melee will spend his time using diplomacy/bluff to convert everybody and anybody he finds in his loyal follower. No metagaming at all, specially because I just need to talk to the monsters to convert them, whitout need of knowing their weakness or strenghts.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Casting spells isn't cheating. Memorizing the entire MM and then use calling effects to bring creatures that are easily controled by the wizard but are tough nuts for the melees, thanks to you knowing their stats number by number, while claiming that the melee can't bring out his candle of invocation to counter your blatant metagaming, in the other hand, is cheating.

By using planar biding you're not proving that the Wizard is superior. You're just proving that there are strong monsters out there. It's the exact reason why candle of invocation is so broken.

This is, I could claim that my melee trains diplomacy/bluff, and turns everybody in the universe in his fanatical unquestionable servant.

If your wizard has all the time in the world to bind creatures, then it's only fair the melee has all the time in the world to talk to monsters to join his side.

But wait, since diplomancy can be used all day long, my melee will easily gather much more minions than your biding wizard, and win by sheer numbers.

1) Yes, I'm sure my max ranks in multiple knowledge skills is there to show my ignorance of monsters.

Seriously, I say I'm going to use Planar Binding and it automatically means I have memorized multiple MMs? I don't know squat about the MMs. I do know that any sensible DM will do me the favor of telling me a monster that is big, strong, and has a low touch AC when I make my knowledge check of 1d20+37.

2) Candle of invocation is not strong because of strong monsters, if you use it to summon a big monster and win an encounter you are an idiot. It's broken because it can be used to get infinite wishes.

3) I don't have all the time in the world to Bind monsters. I see my enemy, I fly 200ft up in the air if for some reason I can't see him when I fly 100ft up, and then I begin casting Planar Binding. If he wants to fight me that's fine, because then I just kill him. If he runs away, then yes I start Binding something, like an inevitable to chase him down.

Seriously, I've never see so much whining about how it's not fair for the Wizard to do anything smart when his enemy runs away or hides. If you don't want me to Planar Bind, feel free to come attack me, so that I can kill you.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

1) The Disarms are toss-ups: 3/4 BAB with MAD-reduced Strength v. Partial BAB with MAD-reduced Strength. Unless you expect the Monk to try to disarm things with his bare hands.

1) Yes I expect him to disarm things with his hands because I don't see any other weapons on him (remember how he's always holding two wands at any given time?).

2)Um? MAD reduced Str versus the Gish's primary stat? of two?

3) BAB of 15 vs BAB of 17. Do you know what a Gish actually is?


III) BAB doesn't matter and Str is probably about the same for the two. Since the Monk in question was a suggestion for a Giacomonk, it's already hemorhaged its wallet into UMD. The buffs are probably about the same.

1) UMD doesn't buff to the same degree as nearly full Wizard casting spent entirely on buffing (9th level spells at 20) no matter how much you put into it.

2) Str is not equal, Str heavily favors the character that cares about Str/Int/Con in that order over Dex/Wis/Con/Str or Str/Wis/Con/Dex.

3) Which reminds me, you can't trip someone using magical flight.


d.1) Most Gish have Heart of Water now-a-days, but there's always a chance...

I was thinking Elemental Body, but whatever.


iv.2) This is a toss-up again. (Slightly less than 2+1/2lvl+Con v. 1/2 lvl+Monk Wis)

Um? No. Try: 1/2 lvl + Wis versus 2+2+2+2+1/2lvl+Con.[/QUOTE]

[Sir Giacomo]

Well, hello again,

time for another interim post of mine.

First of all, good comments, Oslecamo!

The tread appears to have drifted into discussing some (non-core) mageslayer builds - it's OK, but if it gets longer maybe you wish to open a separate thread on this?
Having said that, I'd love to put links to Turcano's build (the latest version) into the main guide above, as an example of non-core, multiclass monk build. Similarly, Solo's Hex-mageslayer looks interesting, so I'm likewise asking for permission to put a link into the main build as example of non-monk mageslayer (non-core).

Will update the main guide as soon as possible with various issues already raised.
This includes one thing that came to my mind when looking at the WoTC board - the issue of spell buffs and SR. Actually, the point made there was just that the monk will lose a standard action often to lower his SR voluatarily for the buff. This is not true for the key buffs at those levels: holy sword, divine power, silence, AMF, magic vestment, greater magic fang and weapon all just work fine. Heroims may be an issue, but you cast that WAY before combat (it's a long-lasting buff, around 80 minutes in the 2nd level bard version with the minor rod of extend).
Well...er...excepting one thing: ENLARGE!:smallbiggrin: Oh, how I laughed about that one - and that no-one of you pointed it out yet. Not only does'nt the monk get enlarge anymore with perfect-self-turned-outsider in level 20, but also from level 13 because the enlarge spell allows SR (not "harmless", and thus the monk cannot even voluntarily lower his SR...
Well, I guess that lord_khaine's monk school needs a revision.
It MAY be possible that you get a friendly high-level npc caster and get an enlarge for 3,000+ permanent on you. At least to last you until level 15, when a ring of spell storing with rightuous might gets available.
Anyhow, it's not such a big deal. And note that I put up already way before the idea at level 13 that the monk gets magic jar and changestaff scrolls and getshimself a treant to occupy mentally and go to town in huge form (with trample, STR 29 and with high natural AC), all without polymorph. It's a bit absurd, but who cares? There are worse spell combos out there :smallsmile:

But I digress..

Now on to what some of you posted in between.

@Griffin131:

1) Mages Disjunction and Dispel ending the UMD monk
Nope. Mage Disjunction allows a will save (the highest of the monk at those levels), won't work in an AMF at those levels to boost. And dispel needs a target, which incidently is difficult. Since from level 9 (eversmoking bottle) and 13 (blink), dispel gets hard. Otherwise, you can just foil enemy dispels (or any targeted spells) already at lower levels with other means of total concealment (obscuring mist) and mirror image, for instance.
I'm not saying that the monk is immune to dispel. But he normally has so few buffs on him that it is not worthwhile for a wizard to use a dispel on him, when he can target with a save/suck/lose spell like Solo's favourite baleful polymorph instead.

2) Initiate grapple or grapple in FAQ?
You guessed it. It says GRAPPLE not INITIATE grapple.

3) Grappling at level 10 without flurry penalty?
Yes. That's what the class says. The flurry penalty goes away until level 9.

4) Traps make noise?
Yes. And I admitted already before that my joker build is not ideally optimised for doing the trapmonkey role. Still, a silence spell will stop any sounds.

5) You do not get spot/listen checks that often?
Yes, you do. You always get them ahead of encounters, both when the opponents are hiding/moving silently and when they are not. Some DMs may be lazy and just say "Ach, here's the encounter". But this is not what the game rules assume (note also how stealthy characters are widely seen as teh weakest, only the rogue appears to be quite OK due to his - sneak attack).

6) Armour spike damage added to grapple attack?
In the rules section you quoted it says grapple ATTACK, not grapple CHECK. Although I have to admit that the RAI should be that it is added to all successful grapple checks.
STill, basically the spikes are just an alternative to get extra damage to the monk's belt for non-monk characters (you cannot have both at the same time, since the belt only works when wearing no armour). In both cases, the monk's unarmed damage remains the highest.

7) Buff in surprise round instead of attacking?
Well, ideally, you make use of your encounter control and stealth to buff outside hearing range, and THEN also use the surprise round for attacking.


@Chosen_of Vecna


Welcome to the thread! Your playtest checks is much welcomed! I'm looking forward to the results.
On the WBL question. This is how imo the WBL recommendation/GUIDEline works:
The moment a character gets to a new level, he is assumed to have the kind of item value as provided by the DMG p.135. More or less, as owed to the campaign's events. For a short while, the character may be even at 5,000 item value at level 12 because he was robbed - or, conversely, at 300,000 item value because he struck it lucky or possesses a powerful item usuable only for some short purpose/quest. ON AVERAGE, though, the wbl guidlines should hold.
Between levels, just use linear interpolation to gauge how much wealt a character should have.

Then on your questions by number (by your counting):
2) Never being able to sneak up to someone?
This way you would obliterate a main part of a whole class: the rogue. Sure you do not mean this? And if a rogue can do it with move silently/hide, why not those who also use these skills?
3) No wand usage possible/losing too many actions?
This is why I advocate buffing outside combat so much, or using your encounter timing control/surprise ability to use wands outside of hearing range. I'm not arguing it should be 100% safe tactics, but it should help.
4) Large tiger has rake and does more damage to monk in a grapple
Well, a tiger has a CR of 4, so it should be a level 4 monk going against it. They are a quite even match. Both would have the same grappling bonus (with the tiger winning in a tie), and the monk's 2d6+3 damage would be in line with the tiger's 1d8+6. The bite attack would be +0, and the rake at only +4 (35% chance of hitting the monk, and not in the first round). The tiger has more hp, so the monk better had a good idea with this one (like his fellow 3 party members quickly dispatching the beast negated by the grapple).:smallsmile:
But the good thing is: the monk can also attempt to pin the tiger in a flurry, with at +12 is around a 55% chance of success vs the tiger's +14. At that point, the tiger always needs to get out of the pin first with its grapple check (and cannot rake as long as it is in a pin).
6) flurry penalty?
Yes, flurry penalty goes away by level 9.


@Talic:

Your grapple test is a good idea. You might have checked the levels 1, 5, 10, 15, 20 for yourself, but here are the grapple check data (note also that even I already in the guide said that grappling all opponents should be a major tacticcs only until level 8. I'm interested to see how many opponents will actually be overcome in grappling even at the higher levels. Do not forget to factor in the much higher number of attempts of grappling than most creatures have....
level 1: +6 (+4/+4); enlarge
level 5: +14 (+13/+13); enlarge
level 10: +19 (+19/+19/+14); enlarge
level 15: +30 (+30/+30/+30/+25/+20); enlarge (permanencie'd, note my SR entry above - plus divine power for the rnd/lvl effect).

level 20: Well, no more enlarge...and rightuous might as second 1 round/lvl effet as per your setting are out.
But for level 20, we can really crack out the two major non-polymorph, long-term buff ways to really get kicking for the monk (also netting huge or gargantuan size,respetively).
Tadaa: the true Treantmonk (get change staff for an obedient treant, use magic jar to occupy its mind. Lasts hours/lvl. Put divine power ontop).
Nets huge form (only colossal types are no longer grappable by you) and thusly:
+44 (+44/+44/+44/+39/+34/+29). And I do not wish to calculate the damage here (note that the base monk's damage just received two size increases, so it is 8d8).
Or, get an animal form scroll or npc caster and turn into a roc with divine power and thus get gargantuan size (you can now grapple everything) and flying to boost (enhanced by monk speed to 170ft flight):
+51 (+51/+51/+51/+46/+41/+36)
Guess it's dragon grappling time!:smallcool: (note, though, that many would catch some faint notion of gruyere, since the animal form is so close to polymorph stuff...)


Now, onto another of the more serious criticism posts by a new poster in more detail:


I saw this on the gleemax boards and was going to post this earlier, but then I decided to read the (then) 12 pages of posts. Now that I'm done, it looks like everyone's finished talking about Giacomo's guide. I don't care; I already remade my account so I'm posting this anyway.

Giacomo, regarding the guide:

First, it doesn't help much with optimization. It seems more geared toward coping with the Monk class once you've given up on optimizing and have decided to just go Monk 20. This isn't what most people want when they look for a class handbook or playguide on this forum or on gleemax. They want to know how to make a good character, not how to prove that Monks can be played in a game setting.

This is why I included an (albeit short) section on prestige classes in the main guide whic hyou appear to have overlooked. But true, I'll also include some multiclassing advice.
In core, though, multiclassing for the monk is a bit limited by the rules. But I'll se what I can do.


Every aspect of your Monk philosophy would be improved by starting with a level of Rogue. Stealth? Improved. Trapfinding? Available. UMD? Full ranks. Speed? Just one level behind. Damage? Probably about the same, considering you only lose one level and gain 1d6 SA.

Good idea, in particular a synergy with stun (when you take that at first level bonus feat from the monk). Might think on posting a multiclass build idea in there with rogue that I've been playing for some time...


Your guide makes things difficult for impressionable readers by not pointing this out. It’s much easier to acknowledge that Monks comparatively suck with traps, damage and UMD and to just fix the problem than it is to jump a straight Monk through hoops to become almost competent. I find it troubling that your guide does not try to make Monks capable scouts or wand-users, when those are the strategies you support using. In fact, it doesn’t even mention the easy ways to get UMD onto a class skill list (and thus making the Giacomonk actually work).

Well the monk IS a capable wandwielder and scout. A level of rogue would mean you can only raise UMD non-crossclass for THAT level. AFter that, if you turn monk, you can never raise another level of rogue AND be able to turn back to monk. So you have to time your rogue re-entry quite well, and you'll be more of an unarmed fighting rogue than a monk.
I did the monk level 20 build because so many say the monk's abilities suck and throughout levels 1-20 I wanted to comment on them and include them in a viable build.


You also pose D&D as a solo game (except when hitting up your buddies for buff spells). You don't seem to acknowledge that there is little benefit to being a generalist--you're in a group; if you can't do something, somebody else probably can. There is massive benefit to being a specialist; if your group needs something done, somebody can do it consistently and effectively. Your goal shouldn't be to generalize, it should be becoming really good at two or three specific things. Unfortunately, the Monk class doesn't do that on its own. It actually will take some effort.

Well, I NEVER posed DD as solo game. The guide is plenty full of suggestions where a monk with his abilities can help the group (I should put in a separate section on this, though).
I'll post some monks doing way more specialisation. Some of them will no longer have UMD and thus use the usual buffing methods to get spell effects.
But there can be great use out of a monk who is specialised to be a caster bane and AT THE SAME time still a good secondary melee combatant, secondary scout, and secondary party face (note the high diplomacy scores at later levels).
Forcing optimisation to be geared towards the typical roles of the iconic party limits unnecessariy, I'd say.


So I would also recommend dividing your guide to cover some of those specific party uses. For example:
Scout: This one's easy. Take the Rogue dip and you're golden.
Utility Guy/Skillmonkey: This one isn't something you can do very well. You could just use UMD, but that consumes permanent resources. You should leave this one for somebody else with the skills or the renewable spells.
Battlefield Control: Take EWP: Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, possibly Weapon Finesse. Stunning Fist could help with the "control" aspect. This is something a straight Monk can do fairly well.
Damage-DealerA couple Monk levels followed by a quick multiclass into Fighter or Paladin could help for a Power Attacker. Or start with some Rogue levels and TWF. This isn't something a straight Monk can swing at all. It is something characters taking Monk-dips can do pretty effectively, though.
Party Face: Boosting Charisma is expensive and you won't be as good at Diplomacy as any Paladins/Rogues/Clerics/Druids/Bards your party might have. You also aren't going to be as good at Enchantments as the party Wizard/Sorcerer. You probably have the Ranger, Fighter and Barbarian trumped though.

Excellent ideas! Will include them into the guide, if that's OK.


An added benefit of the Rogue dip is that you can afford to drop your Charisma to typical Monk levels and still not completely suck at UMD. That means that you will probably be able to tank almost as well as a Fighter or Barbarian.

Could be the case - although a rogue level dip costs you BAB, plus hp. So you fall behind in "tanking".


I would de-emphasize Grappling. As has been mentioned before, Grappling big scary monsters will get you eaten and Grappling members of larger groups will get you Sneak/Power-Attacked in the face. It is circumstantially useful (say, if you can get your hands on a Wizard who, for whatever reason, can't use Teleport or Dimension Door), but not enough to value it so highly.

I already pointed out that it should only be used in levels 1-8 often enough. After that, use different tactics.


Very little in your guide convincingly supports Monks. It seems like it could just as easily be a very specific guide for Fighters, Barbarians or Rogues as it is for Monks. Back when you were raving about Polymorph and Monks, you at least had a sort of a point--Monks do something different than other classes while under Polymorph effects. Whether they Polymorph *better* than Barbarians, Fighters or Rogues is up to debate, but they're at least different. Now you're basically writing about grapple, speed and your items. Haste (one of the few buffs that you might actually expect to see regularly due to its massive utility and multiple targets) narrows the gap between Monk and non-Monk speed during combat.

Just grapple, speed and items? Hmm - perhaps you wish to read the guide again?
It is full of instances where the spells synergise greatly with monk abilities, like divine power. And as you pointed out, haste is NOT among them (since the enhancement bonuses to speed to not stack). So it is better for the other classes. Meanwhile, the monk then gets boots of flying in the boots of speed slot - because THAT stacks greatly with his movement enhancement. And so on. And so on.
This is a MONK's guide. It would not work this way for any other classes. The only insight that DOES work is that other classes like the fighter (and even the sorcerer/wizard for divine spells btw!) can also make great use out of UMD, even cross-class.


I would suggest modifying your guide to developing what Monks do have going for them that other classes don't; specifically extra attacks (that and improved speed are the only defining Monk abilities that I can recognize... and I don’t think speed is something you can expect to use ahead of time).
By adding either bonus damage (probably in the form of Sneak Attack or weapon enhancements) or different methods of disabling the baddies (disarm the gish of his sword and his component pouch, trip him and attempt a stun attack in a single round), the extra attacks can actually become useful. Using them to grapple or attack directly for their base damage + GMW + Str. isn't.

That's what I wrote alreay in the guide, exactly those ideas. For instance, look up the monk myth section where I describe what only the monk can do/can do best. And in plenty of other areas (including in the joker build itself).


Also, I would recommend adding Haste to your spell list. It is one of the few spells to have a direct effect on combat before you start punching the baddies. Good Hope and Rage also do this, but they sort of suck. And you apparently missed the "Fortitude Save" part of Ghoul Touch; it's actually a pretty terrible wand.

Nope. Haste simply does not stack so well with the monk. He does not get the move enhancement bonus on top of his own; and getting a full round attack (with flurry) is quite rare - OK, not so rare when grappling. But still.
And the fort save in the ghoul touch is only vs the stench, not vs the paralysing effect.


And I don't like saying this but your guide isn’t very good as a character class handbook. It looks like you're trying to mirror the Logic Ninja’s guide, but you never get to the meat... y’know, the stuff people care about: spell selections, feat selections, item selections, race selections... that sort of thing. Instead, you show off one feebly optimized build and one set of equipment. I recommend you look at Dictum Mortuum’s guide to guide-writing if you do want to remake this into something people take seriously. You’ll also need to expand beyond the Core rules (where there isn’t enough freedom for build advice to matter all that much).

Ah...I'm starting to realise something. You have only read Azerion Kelimon's thwarted excerpt of the guide in the WoTC -well, it is MUCH longer. Check the top three posts of this thread, there is a full level 1-20 detailed treatmant of what you should do and when.

...coming to think of it...likely that explains also the lukewarm responses of the posters at WoTC - they do not realise that the stuff AK posted is just an excerpt. So once more, I kindly ask:
AZERIAN KELIMON WOULD YOU PLEASE EDIT THAT POST IN WOTC TO A MERE LINK WITH 1000 EXCUSES FOR YOUR RUDENESS? thank you.

- Giacomo

[Scintillatus]

What's missing, exactly? I know the blacked-out bits are actually one of the Gleemax versions of Spoiler tags.

[Solo]

Solo's Hex-mageslayer looks interesting, so I'm likewise asking for permission to put a link into the main build as example of non-monk mageslayer (non-core)

Meh, go ahead. It makes saves, but doesn't do much else.

Fun concept though.

"I am the walking embodiment of Lawfulness and Evilness, as evidenced by the fact that milk goes sour when I am nearby!"



Anyhow, it's not such a big deal. And note that I put up already way before the idea at level 13 that the monk gets magic jar and changestaff scrolls and getshimself a treant to occupy mentally and go to town in huge form (with trample, STR 29 and with high natural AC), all without polymorph.
Excuse me while I go put on sunglasses. Your logic is blinding me.

[Azerian Kelimon]

What's missing, exactly? I know the blacked-out bits are actually one of the Gleemax versions of Spoiler tags.

Indeed. Not to mention, it would be much easier for Giacomo to stop howlin' and simply sending me the code via email.

[Sir Giacomo]

Indeed. Not to mention, it would be much easier for Giacomo to stop howlin' and simply sending me the code via email.

Nonono. This is not how it works. I'll explain it to you: you messed up, you clean up the mess. It's that simple.
What is so difficult about simply editing the post over there to reduce it to the link over here. And explaining what you have done wrong in a short post there as well.

Try it, you'll feel better afterwards!:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

[Azerian Kelimon]

Nonono. This is not how it works. I'll explain it to you: you messed up, you clean up the mess. It's that simple.
What is so difficult about simply editing the post over there to reduce it to the link over here. And explaining what you have done wrong in a short post there as well.

Try it, you'll feel better afterwards!:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

That people like it much more if they can read right there and just copypasting the code of your post into an email would be quicker?

[Solo]

Nonono. This is not how it works. I'll explain it to you: you messed up, you clean up the mess. It is that simple.

Nonono. That is not how it works. I'll explain it to you: If you want something done right, you have to go do it yourself. It is that simple.

You can either hound AK to clear it up ineffectually, register for an account at Gleemax and post the real version there yourself to clear things up, or just format it correctly (it doesn't seem to be that hard) and give him the new format.

Look, you want AK to do you a favor, but no one will do you a favor if you're being unpleasant to them.

You should be polite, ask nicely, and if that fails do things yourself.

Try it sometime, you'll feel good :smallsmile:

[Scintillatus]

I still don't know what's missing from Azerian's repost.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

@Chosen_of Vecna


Welcome to the thread! Your playtest checks is much welcomed! I'm looking forward to the results.
On the WBL question. This is how imo the WBL recommendation/GUIDEline works:
The moment a character gets to a new level, he is assumed to have the kind of item value as provided by the DMG p.135. More or less, as owed to the campaign's events. For a short while, the character may be even at 5,000 item value at level 12 because he was robbed - or, conversely, at 300,000 item value because he struck it lucky or possesses a powerful item usuable only for some short purpose/quest. ON AVERAGE, though, the wbl guidlines should hold.
Between levels, just use linear interpolation to gauge how much wealt a character should have.

I see, this explains the fundamental disconnect that we will always have. You see, if this were the case, you would be facing Wizards casting Shapechange from as early as level 9, laughing at you, and then burning you to death with Dragon breath, or other assorted supernatural abilities. And of course using scrolls of Wail of the Banshee, and Prismatic Sphere as well. The idea that a staff of wishes being used to win 13 straight encounters, and then providing you with a second staff of wishes is a terrible idea.

As per the DMG guidelines, you receive X amount of wealth from each encounter, and this averages out to WBL. This does not mean that someone spending all their money on a Scroll of Wail of the Banshee as soon as possible should be rewarded by giving them a second scroll to make up for WBL deficiencies they have after using the first.


2) Never being able to sneak up to someone?
This way you would obliterate a main part of a whole class: the rogue. Sure you do not mean this? And if a rogue can do it with move silently/hide, why not those who also use these skills?

You can never sneak up adjacent to someone without being invisible no, but rogues have much better UMD scores then you, and have more reason to get those spells cast on them seeing as they actually increase the rogues damage, unlike yours.

Also note that most of the best Rogues are ranged builds, and so they hardly care that they can't sneak adjacent.

Also on the subject of Rogues, you are filled with mistakes about multiclassing Rogue with Monk.

1) If your first level is Rogue, then you take all Monk levels afterward, it doesn't limit you at all, since Monk restrictions are that after taking Monk levels, dipping another class prevents a return to Monk, starting in another class has no effect.

2) While all Monk levels will have UMD cross-class, your cap, the only important thing, is going to remain at the class skill level. So a Monk 10 has 6 ranks in UMD, whereas a Rogue 1/Monk 9 has 13 ranks in UMD.


3) No wand usage possible/losing too many actions?
This is why I advocate buffing outside combat so much, or using your encounter timing control/surprise ability to use wands outside of hearing range. I'm not arguing it should be 100% safe tactics, but it should help.

That's wonderful that you are going to be UMDing Divine Power from outside hearing range, for my playtests, what do you actually consider hearing range, so I know how far away you should run before you start attempting to UMD enlarge (since you had no suggestions, I'll start with level 5.)


Well, a tiger has a CR of 4, so it should be a level 4 monk going against it. They are a quite even match. Both would have the same grappling bonus (with the tiger winning in a tie), and the monk's 2d6+3 damage would be in line with the tiger's 1d8+6. The bite attack would be +0, and the rake at only +4 (35% chance of hitting the monk, and not in the first round). The tiger has more hp, so the monk better had a good idea with this one (like his fellow 3 party members quickly dispatching the beast negated by the grapple).:smallsmile:
But the good thing is: the monk can also attempt to pin the tiger in a flurry, with at +12 is around a 55% chance of success vs the tiger's +14. At that point, the tiger always needs to get out of the pin first with its grapple check (and cannot rake as long as it is in a pin).

I was also thinking about a Dire Tiger too. But I'll keep in mind your goal of pinning. I sure hope you don't face a Fleshraker at level 4 instead.

You also missed the part where you are not neccissarily enlarged when the cat that is faster then you, has a better hide check then you, and has pounce charges you from the trees, hits with it's claw/claw/bite/rake rake routine, and then I guess you can start trying to UMD your wand.


6) flurry penalty?
Yes, flurry penalty goes away by level 9.

I am aware of that, I was referring to lower levels, but either way, it's an easy check.

[Saph]

Indeed. Not to mention, it would be much easier for Giacomo to stop howlin' and simply sending me the code via email.

Azerian . . . you can get the code any time you feel like with ten seconds work. Just click "Reply". That gives you all the code. Copy it, paste it, and then take out the QUOTE command at the beginning and end.

I have to say, with regard to this one thing I'm on Giacomo's side. Posting a badly formatted version of someone's guide for the express purpose of getting posters from another board to mock it is very bad form. At the very least you should have made the minimal effort to format it correctly - it's good manners to both the writer and the readers.

- Saph

[Solo]

Azerian . . . you can get the code any time you feel like with ten seconds work. Just click "Reply". That gives you all the code. Copy it, paste it, and then take out the QUOTE command at the beginning and end.

I have to say, with regard to this one thing I'm on Giacomo's side. Posting a badly formatted version of someone's guide for the express purpose of getting posters from another board to mock it is very bad form. At the very least you should have made the minimal effort to format it correctly - it's good manners to both the writer and the readers.

- Saph

Actually, [spoiler] is blacked out text over on Gleemax.

To get a box, you do something else.

Just so we're clear.

[Ne0]

^Saph is correct. It's not a very kind thing to do, and it's easy as hell to get the correct code. Since you click the button all the time, I'm suprised you haven't thought of it yet.

Minor Correction (and reason I'm posting): It's the Quote button, not the Reply button.

Edit: Changing spoilers to boxes isn't a big problem either. Just press Ctrl+F, and enter spoiler. Correct it every time something highlights.

[Saph]

Actually, [spoiler] is blacked out text over on Gleemax.

To get a box, you do something else.

Just so we're clear.

What's the Gleemax command for a spoiler box?

- Saph

[Solo]

What's the Gleemax command for a spoiler box?

- Saph

I don't exactly know. I think it's some variant of the [spoiler] command though.

maybe [bspoiler] or something

[Azerian Kelimon]

Azerian . . . you can get the code any time you feel like with ten seconds work. Just click "Reply". That gives you all the code. Copy it, paste it, and then take out the QUOTE command at the beginning and end.

I have to say, with regard to this one thing I'm on Giacomo's side. Posting a badly formatted version of someone's guide for the express purpose of getting posters from another board to mock it is very bad form. At the very least you should have made the minimal effort to format it correctly - it's good manners to both the writer and the readers.

- Saph

I dind't know that. Thanks, I'll get into correcting it right away.

[Azerian Kelimon]

'Tis done. 'Nuff said.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

I think it's [sblock] or something.

[Sir Giacomo]

Sigh.

Azerian Kelimon, pls. The spoilers are still a black mess and you did not post the whole guide, so many people over there don't bother with the link since they believe it's all there is - the introduction and general tactical considerations without the build.
The best thing would be, if you simply reduce the post to the link with some explanatory words. That way, people with also always see the most updated version.

Now, trying to correct some misunderstandings...


I see, this explains the fundamental disconnect that we will always have. You see, if this were the case, you would be facing Wizards casting Shapechange from as early as level 9, laughing at you, and then burning you to death with Dragon breath, or other assorted supernatural abilities. And of course using scrolls of Wail of the Banshee, and Prismatic Sphere as well. The idea that a staff of wishes being used to win 13 straight encounters, and then providing you with a second staff of wishes is a terrible idea.

As per the DMG guidelines, you receive X amount of wealth from each encounter, and this averages out to WBL. This does not mean that someone spending all their money on a Scroll of Wail of the Banshee as soon as possible should be rewarded by giving them a second scroll to make up for WBL deficiencies they have after using the first.

Sorry, I worded it in a way easily misunderstood. Of course when you consume consumable items, this should be constantly deducted from your wbl! Otherwise, you would get them "for free". And that would be stupid.
Also, I'd strongly suggest that the wbl do not allow spell effects in excess of what the characters could cast (although it's not given as explicit DMG guideline, it is quite feasible).



You can never sneak up adjacent to someone without being invisible no, but rogues have much better UMD scores then you, and have more reason to get those spells cast on them seeing as they actually increase the rogues damage, unlike yours.

Ah, another misunderstanding. I also thought about monks
- either sneaking up with hide and the benefit of concealment around them (at night, or darnkess, or fog, or smoke)
- or making use of their superior move for long charging distances (even partial charging distances for surprise round charges).


Also note that most of the best Rogues are ranged builds, and so they hardly care that they can't sneak adjacent.

Well, sort of ranged. Up to 30ft.


Also on the subject of Rogues, you are filled with mistakes about multiclassing Rogue with Monk.

1) If your first level is Rogue, then you take all Monk levels afterward, it doesn't limit you at all, since Monk restrictions are that after taking Monk levels, dipping another class prevents a return to Monk, starting in another class has no effect.

Yes, but this way does not net you higher UMD, which was what temp. suggested.


2) While all Monk levels will have UMD cross-class, your cap, the only important thing, is going to remain at the class skill level. So a Monk 10 has 6 ranks in UMD, whereas a Rogue 1/Monk 9 has 13 ranks in UMD.

Nope. With your monk class levels, you can only raise monk skills, not UMD. What you can do though in multi-class is when after rogue/monk 9, going back rogue 2 (and abandoning monk forever), you can max out the UMD skill to level 11, because it is now again your class skill.


That's wonderful that you are going to be UMDing Divine Power from outside hearing range, for my playtests, what do you actually consider hearing range, so I know how far away you should run before you start attempting to UMD enlarge (since you had no suggestions, I'll start with level 5.)

Er...closed door in the next dungeon room? A silence effect cast in corridor? I know it's hard, but not as hard as you may think.
Could be gauged with the help of the listen check vs normal voice/casting, and range penalty, and interfering barriers penalties.


I was also thinking about a Dire Tiger too. But I'll keep in mind your goal of pinning. I sure hope you don't face a Fleshraker at level 4 instead.

Luckily fleshraker is outside core, and a dire tiger with grapple +24 may be approached by a level 8 monk (the level I portrayed as the end of overall grappling tactics) with the help of a one-off divine power use (putting monk to +23 grapple; also higher damage). But I guess vs the dire tiger, the monk would lose grappling combat. It's easier for him to simply ghoul touch the critter or sidestep it with hide from animal.


You also missed the part where you are not neccissarily enlarged when the cat that is faster then you, has a better hide check then you, and has pounce charges you from the trees, hits with it's claw/claw/bite/rake rake routine, and then I guess you can start trying to UMD your wand.

You seem to have missed the part which say that the monk is as fast as a tiger at level 4, and faster than the dire tiger at level 8. So he can outmaneuver the dire tiger. Note also that the tigers have lower hide and spot/listen vs the hide/move silently of the joker monk build. Only the tiger beats the monk's (at level 4!) move silently vs his listen - but loses in the spot/hide game. So the monk would see it in the trees easily enough - and do not forget even when flat-footed it could combat reflex AoO in enlarged form and grapple the tiger, ending its pounce charge to a nothing.
Please look up the monster statistics and my monk build before making such claims.


I am aware of that, I was referring to lower levels, but either way, it's an easy check.

Yep.

- Giacomo

[Solo]

Azerian Kelimon, pls. The spoilers are still a black mess and you did not post the whole guide, so many people over there don't bother with the link since they believe it's all there is - the introduction and general tactical considerations without the build.

.... Giacomo, believe me when I say that you probably don't want them to see the builds...


...but if you're determined, you can always register there and post the guide yourself.

[Worira]

GHOUL TOUCH DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

Seriously. It's Fort Negates. Not Fort Negates; see text. On a successful save, it does nothing.

[AmberVael]

Nope. With your monk class levels, you can only raise monk skills, not UMD. What you can do though in multi-class is when after rogue/monk 9, going back rogue 2 (and abandoning monk forever), you can max out the UMD skill to level 11, because it is now again your class skill.

To quote D20srd:

If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.)

That'll be one Morbo to go, would you like some fries with that?

[Aleron]

The code for the spoiler block like is used here is [sblock]. Update and be happy. :)

Now, I'll say right now that I've not read the entire thread...I first saw it when it was about 11 pages long and just don't have the time to slog through that much flame and debate over something this bad.

G-man, I'm a monk fan. I tend to play them simply because I enjoy the flavor they have. But I'll tell you now, this "Guide" isn't worth the hard drive space you used to post it.

One of the best things a monk can do in a group(if the "basic 4 roles" are already met) is be a back of all the non-magic users. They can scout decent with Spot/Listen as class skills given that they probably have a decent-to-high wis. They can probably be a lead person through a door if your not 100% trusting of your rogue(or trapfinder's) ability to find/disable traps and survive better than most. Their speed lets them get around the battlefeild and provide flanking for the others in the group, and in a pinch they can even add some extra DPS to things when needed.

In a 4 person group with a monk subing as the primary melee/tank, your gonna hurt. Period. INA & Weapon Finess/Intuitive Attack can help lower their MAD somewhat taking out, or at least lessoning, the need for Str. You not as worried about skills as you probably have a rogue that will have to focus on being good at it's job without you being a saftey net, so Int isn't as important. Cha, as always is a dump. So you NEED high Wis/Dex and better than average/high Con(monk's HP sucks esp with lack of ability to wear armor). I've played this role before, and it worked, though fights took longer and the healer had to be a bit more on game. It's just not as easy.

Monks are an odd breed, we have to let our role in the party be decided by the party and it's makeup. We're not primary anything unless we're forces to be. Accept this and you'll be a lot happier. I still play my monks, contribute, and know what? My group and I still have fun. About all the "Guide" you need to monks is, pardon the pun, "Be Flexible".

[olelia]

Fixed gleemax to proper format...if you want to edit your orginal post you can...the code is all there.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Sorry, I worded it in a way easily misunderstood. Of course when you consume consumable items, this should be constantly deducted from your wbl! Otherwise, you would get them "for free". And that would be stupid.
Also, I'd strongly suggest that the wbl do not allow spell effects in excess of what the characters could cast (although it's not given as explicit DMG guideline, it is quite feasible).

1) Okay, then so if you used up an entire wand of Divine Power, at level 10, then when you hit level 11 you would have WBL of level 11 -the cost of that wand?

2) As for your other suggestion, that's just silly, why do the scrolls rules provide rules for activating a scroll of a spell you can't cast yet?


Ah, another misunderstanding. I also thought about monks
- either sneaking up with hide and the benefit of concealment around them (at night, or darnkess, or fog, or smoke)
- or making use of their superior move for long charging distances (even partial charging distances for surprise round charges).

Superior charging distances is fine, but my point is you can't start with a full attack (your mount tricks don't work either by the way.)

As for concealment, theoretically you can sneak up to someone under a darkness effect or in the night (if they don't have darkvision) but since anyone would notice your darkness effect and react to that, it's a moot point. And at night, if they are anywhere within 20ft of a light source (they should be) then you can't sneak adjacent to them because you have no concealment.

And remember that most methods of creating magical smoke require verbal components or a command word, and all of them can be recognized as such magical methods.


Well, sort of ranged. Up to 30ft.

No, the best Rogues have a Wand Bracer with Sniper's Shot/Grave Strike/Golem Strike/and Plant Strike in it.


Yes, but this way does not net you higher UMD, which was what temp. suggested.

Yes it does.


Nope. With your monk class levels, you can only raise monk skills, not UMD. What you can do though in multi-class is when after rogue/monk 9, going back rogue 2 (and abandoning monk forever), you can max out the UMD skill to level 11, because it is now again your class skill.

Wrong, it takes twice as many skill points but taking a single level rogue dip permanently raises your cap to the class skill level. Please take note of the actual rules.


Er...closed door in the next dungeon room? A silence effect cast in corridor? I know it's hard, but not as hard as you may think.
Could be gauged with the help of the listen check vs normal voice/casting, and range penalty, and interfering barriers penalties.

That's great, how about you tell me how far away you want to cast. I'll keep in mind other side of a door. Also, while you are at it, why don't you tell me what wands you will have, since I clearly can't playtest without knowing that (I just realized you conveniently left that blank to better schroedingerize your wands.)


Luckily fleshraker is outside core, and a dire tiger with grapple +24 may be approached by a level 8 monk (the level I portrayed as the end of overall grappling tactics) with the help of a one-off divine power use (putting monk to +23 grapple; also higher damage). But I guess vs the dire tiger, the monk would lose grappling combat. It's easier for him to simply ghoul touch the critter or sidestep it with hide from animal.

1) Luckily, you would still be owned by a Fleshraker even if you went non-core.

2) You won't be enlarged for the Tiger fight, because it will hear you attempting (and failing) to activate your wand, after which it will charge you while you are unenlarged.

3) The point is that the Dire Tiger would grapple you after it's charge, and then you wouldn't have a choice. You'd also be wasting your time with Ghoul Touch since it would just make the save, not to mention you better have enough potions or wand charges of Hide from Animals for everyone, because some people don't like it when the Monk is useless again because he's hiding.


You seem to have missed the part which say that the monk is as fast as a tiger at level 4, and faster than the dire tiger at level 8. So he can outmaneuver the dire tiger. Note also that the tigers have lower hide and spot/listen vs the hide/move silently of the joker monk build. Only the tiger beats the monk's (at level 4!) move silently vs his listen - but loses in the spot/hide game. So the monk would see it in the trees easily enough - and do not forget even when flat-footed it could combat reflex AoO in enlarged form and grapple the tiger, ending its pounce charge to a nothing.
Please look up the monster statistics and my monk build before making such claims.

Unfortunately none of that helps your party, since you apparently decided to hide, run away, and buff (failing multiple times) while once again leaving the other three party members to fight.

And no, you can't combat reflexes AoO when it attacks you before you are enlarged, which it does when you attempt to buff, you know, screaming command words at that wand in your hand that isn't working.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Fixed gleemax to proper format...if you want to edit your orginal post you can...the code is all there.

Beaten to the punch.

[Frosty]

Giacomo, you don't even know the skill system works do you? Once a class skill, always a class skill in terms of max ranks.

[Sir Giacomo]

Giacomo, you don't even know the skill system works do you? Once a class skill, always a class skill in terms of max ranks.

FROM SRD: Skills: If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.)
If a skill is not a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, the maximum rank for that skill is one-half the maximum for a class skill.

So we are both wrong. Yes, you can raise UMD to level +3 ranks as rogue 1/monk x. But through multiclassing, UMD is not all of a sudden a class skill of the rogue 1/monk x.
More importantly, it does not say anything about cross-class cost. So you still need to pay double the points in your monk levels to increase UMD.

- Giacomo

[Eldariel]

So we are both wrong. Yes, you can raise UMD to level +3 ranks as rogue 1/monk x. But through multiclassing, UMD is not all of a sudden a class skill of the rogue 1/monk x.
More importantly, it does not say anything about cross-class cost. So you still need to pay double the points in your monk levels to increase UMD.

That's what he was saying. Read his post, "Once a class skill, always a class skill in terms of max ranks." He's right on all accounts. Could we now please drop it?

EDIT: Please change the thread title to "Beating your head against the wall: Giacomo's Guide to Beating Your Head Against a Wall", 'cause that's what this is becoming.

[Reel On, Love]

FROM SRD: Skills: If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.)
If a skill is not a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, the maximum rank for that skill is one-half the maximum for a class skill.

So we are both wrong.
As usual, no, it's just you.

It makes it a class skill in terms of maximum ranks, which is what Frosty said.


Yes, you can raise UMD to level +3 ranks as rogue 1/monk x. But through multiclassing, UMD is not all of a sudden a class skill of the rogue 1/monk x.
More importantly, it does not say anything about cross-class cost. So you still need to pay double the points in your monk levels to increase UMD.

- Giacomo
This is what people have been saying.

[Frosty]

More importantly, it does not say anything about cross-class cost. So you still need to pay double the points in your monk levels to increase UMD.

- Giacomo

Yes, thank you for pointing out that I'm right.

[Sir Giacomo]

ah, my bad - sorry!

So you can get higher UMD with a 1-level dip in rogue (or starting as a rogue), though you still need to pay the double cost. What exactly does this change for the monk guide?

When you do that, you
- lose 1 BAB
- get all monk abilities one level later.

So it is a good idea, but it leads to a different monk build.

- Giacomo