Feats that suck

[Lycar]

If only there were some light source that you could place wherever you want and would emit light in an area around it. Something like a Light that continued indefinitely, or a Torch the burned forever, then you could hang that over above the horses, and have your own campfire (or not) separate...

Again: The more light you put up, the more attention you draw. It matters little if you light up with one big light source or many smaller ones.

Usually adventurers try to avoid unwanted attention.

But I do realize that you are, by no means, an usual adventurer.

And you would be able to see anyone approaching the horses, and they would have no cover or concealment.

Youi are 100% wrong.

Hint: Horses are neither translucent, nor do they spend their entire lives standing up. Especially not at night.

He should have one of the seven hundred spells that cripple things, because that's what he prepares normally. Trees? Web that horse. Not going anywhere. Glitterdust? it moves at half speed and can't take the Run action, ect.

{Scrubbed} Is it entirely imaginable for you that, maybe, just maybe your mage, like, used up those spells during the day!?

[Elf Wizard as sentry]
Except he's also got a racial bonus, a second check or aid another action from his familiar, alterness when his familiar is near. So he's actually got a higher bonus then most rogues of any level where you actually still use horses. (Because of course, later he's just casting Phantom Steed.)

*Sigh* Finally a real and sensible argument! Yes, thanks to racial boni and maybe with the aid of a proper familiar, an Elf wizard isn't none too shabby as a guard. At least at the lower levels. See, that didn't even hurt.

I have to ask though: Doesn't dedicating 4 entire spell slots each day for Phantom Steeds hurt mages power?

Except he doesn't need that much sleep, because Clerics don't require rest for their spells.

Oops, my bad. Our GM always required the divine casters to rest too. But per RAW, clerics don't need to rest to learn spells.

Still want to get some sleep to avoid exhaustion.

And if you get the feats to not need to sleep anymore, well, that are feats you don't spend on, say Endurance, or DMM.

Well, my current party is a Warforge Dragonborn Totemist, Mongrelfolk Dragonborn Dragonfire Adept, Gnome Dragonborn Bard, and Something Dragonborn Crusader.

*stunned silence* ... you know... this explains a lot...

Do you even play in an Eberron campaign?

*Incredibly long rant that starts with defending toughness and ends with how everyone who doesn't take Endurance wants to never be challenged*

I think you need a permit to burn a strawman that big. Come back when you have something to say that even remotely relates to something someone has said in this thread.

{Scrubbed}

Endurance as a feat has merit if you are interested in the right kind of flavour for your character.

Not 'you' as in 'you Blood_Lord' obviously.
{Scrubbed} There are people who like their characters to follow a certain vision they have about that character. If Endurance happens to fit that description, they will pick it over, say, Jump of the Heavens or Power Attack or Shock Trooper.

Not you obviously but the number of people so inclined is greater then zero (and I dare say, alot greater then 1 even). So, some people like the feat, even if it is not worth much mechanically.

A feat can suck in two ways: It can be not worth the mechanical effect (Endurance for example), or they can have atrocious 'fluff' (Manyshot. One of my friends is an engineer and he just can't get over the two arrows fired at once apparently having the same kinetic energy...).

Most feats are just not as good as several dozen others, mechanically, so you can't 'afford' to take them if you want to coax some extra 'power' out of your 'built'

All I am saying is that a feat that is mechanically inferior, still can have saving graces for people who like roleplay more then rollplay. And are willing to pay the price. You aren't so this is not for you. But you are not the only player in the world. So your vote on the matter is exactly that: One. Vote.

#####

Back on topic: Feats that suck.

Diehard.

Okay, so you are still standing at -1 to -9 hits. Sure, that means you might be able to land that hit that kills the last goblin/ork/whatever.

But if you do go down, you go down hard. As in: You are dead.

You know, in the original editions of D&D you were simply dead once you were out of HP. The rule that you linger on till you drop to -10 was added in AD&D to reduce PC mortality a bit. So you can fight untill you go down without having to roll up a new character every time.

With Diehard however, you can return to the golden age of heroism, where hero wins all fights, except one. And in that one he dies.

Diehard feat for diehard players (or masochists).

Saving grace: If you are playing a fanatical zealot, who would rather die then admit defeat, this is the feat for you!

Lycar

[Jayabalard]

You are wrong. Whether a feat is worth taking is an absolute truth. It either is, or it isn't.

Nope, it's an entirely subjective question; there isn't a universal answer to whether something has value; it varies depending on who is being asked.

[RebelRogue]

Hint: Horses are neither translucent, nor do they spend their entire lives standing up. Especially not at night.

Equines may be opaque, but they are indeed able to sleep while standing (and do so most of the time)!

[KKL]

You still don't get the point, do you? Is it entirely imaginable for you that, maybe, just maybe your mage, like, used up those spells during the day!?

Scrolls, wands?

I have to ask though: Doesn't dedicating 4 entire spell slots each day for Phantom Steeds hurt mages power?

Scrolls, wands?

{Scrubbed}

Cool unnessecary jab there, bro.

Endurance as a feat has merit if you are interested in the right kind of flavour for your character.

Feats are not flavor. Taking Power Attack does not mean that your character is a reckless fighter, aiming to kill, or a cold tactician who applies the right amount of force as needed to deal the most damage while losing the least accuracy. Taking Power Attack means you took Power Attack.

{Scrubbed} There are people who like their characters to follow a certain vision they have about that character. If Endurance happens to fit that description, they will pick it over, say, Jump of the Heavens or Power Attack or Shock Trooper.

Not you obviously but the number of people so inclined is greater then zero (and I dare say, alot greater then 1 even). So, some people like the feat, even if it is not worth much mechanically.

A feat can suck in two ways: It can be not worth the mechanical effect (Endurance for example), or they can have atrocious 'fluff' (Manyshot. One of my friends is an engineer and he just can't get over the two arrows fired at once apparently having the same kinetic energy...).

Most feats are just not as good as several dozen others, mechanically, so you can't 'afford' to take them if you want to coax some extra 'power' out of your 'built'

All I am saying is that a feat that is mechanically inferior, still can have saving graces for people who like roleplay more then rollplay. And are willing to pay the price. You aren't so this is not for you. But you are not the only player in the world. So your vote on the matter is exactly that: One. Vote.

Great, snippy "rollplay vs roleplay" crap.

[Eldariel]

Nope, it's an entirely subjective question; there isn't a universal answer to whether something has value; it varies depending on who is being asked.

There's truth in his statement though. Some feats simply give you more returns for the investment of a feat than others. To maximize players' ability to customize the characters, those feats should be equalized. The mentality of "rewarding rules mastery" that snuck into 3.X development is entirely too damaging for many ideas.

Luckily D&D is a game that isn't bound by rigid rules if you want to play for real; the real game is played with your friends. This gives the DMs the tools to fix the mistakes made by the developers and improve upon the given contents for a better play experience. Also, splatbooks of course serve to help this, to customize the play experience and to give players more options to customize their concepts.

[TengYt]

I haven't read the whole argument, however it seems in one DM's universe there are bands of uber-Rogues able to McGaiver their way around any PC's defenses set up whilst they sleep. They can apparently succeed no matter what, and yet devote themselves ONLY to stealing the PC's horses. Rather that, say, reliving the PCs of their magical items or something.

[Blood_Lord]

Again: The more light you put up, the more attention you draw. It matters little if you light up with one big light source or many smaller ones.

No, that is not true. First of all, any amount of light only matters if your enemies have line of sight to it. And if they have line of sight, then the amount of light is irrelevant.

Small sources of light, like continual light spells, can be more easily arranged so that they only shed light in the direction you wish, not allowing anyone else to see them.

But hypothetically, if somehow enemies were attracted to your light, you would kill them, because that's what you do when a challenge shows up.

Usually adventurers try to avoid unwanted attention.

But I do realize that you are, by no means, an usual adventurer.

Actually, usually adventurers seek out "unwanted attention" that they want, because they are trying to kill people and take their stuff/gain XP/save the world.

Youi are 100% wrong.

Hint: Horses are neither translucent, nor do they spend their entire lives standing up. Especially not at night.

Hint: horses tied in a line all have their tethers on the same side, plainly visible to anyone looking.

Also, maybe you should wiki some horse facts.

You still don't get the point, do you? Is it entirely imaginable for you that, maybe, just maybe your mage, like, used up those spells during the day!?

Is it entirely imaginable that if you have no spells and no HP it doesn't matter what you do because you automatically lose to a single rogue of your level?

If you have spells, you can have encounters. If you don't have spells, your character is either too stupid to live, or you shouldn't have any more encounters.

But all of this is somewhat moot, since the whole point is to target the horses, who fail against almost anything, like a freaking wand.

*Sigh* Finally a real and sensible argument! Yes, thanks to racial boni and maybe with the aid of a proper familiar, an Elf wizard isn't none too shabby as a guard. At least at the lower levels. See, that didn't even hurt.

So in other words, you were completely wrong, I was completely right, and now you are going to act all superior because the only other option is admitting that it is incredibly easy to have one of the 3 high spot/listen people watching the camp at any given time.

I have to ask though: Doesn't dedicating 4 entire spell slots each day for Phantom Steeds hurt mages power?

Dedicating a few slots, depending on party, and Wizard, does in fact slightly compromise the Wizard's power on the days in which you need to travel in a hurry because X is going to happen in Y time Since that's like once per adventure, it's not that big a deal, and the rest of the time you just walk, and you don't forced March, and it's not a problem.

Of course, since Phantom Steeds are so much faster then horses, you can cast 4+ Phantom Steeds, get there in a hurry, and then rest for 8 hours and still fight the battle/set up defenses before a group riding horses. (And a couple years before the group who all took Endurance and forced marched their way.)

Still want to get some sleep to avoid exhaustion.

You mean to avoid Fatigue, which always comes before Exhaustion, and is cured with a single second level spell once a day. So no, you really don't need to ever sleep again after level 3.

And if you get the feats to not need to sleep anymore, well, that are feats you don't spend on, say Endurance, or DMM.

And if you cast the spell that cures Fatigue once a day, then you have one fewer second level spell each day at the cost of never sleeping.

*stunned silence* ... you know... this explains a lot...

Do you even play in an Eberron campaign?

1) How does that explain a lot? Are you under some false impression that those are powerful characters or something silly like that? Are you scared of the evil super powered Dragonborn race that isn't even that good?

2) No, Ebberon is incredibly immersion breaking and incapable of understanding how magic would actually effect society. Are you going to call me an evil Munchkin because one of my friends plays a warforged in a homebrewed setting?

You are either unwilling or incapable of getting the point. Perhaps I was just overtaxing your attention span.

Or perhaps I read the whole thing, but it shifted topic for no reason every five seconds and had nothing to do with what I was talking about and everything to do with you making up crap that I didn't say and then attributing it to me.

So, again, this time short:

Endurance as a feat sucks donkey balls if you look for power.

That is correct.

Endurance as a feat has merit if you are interested in the right kind of flavour for your character.

That is incorrect. If you are interested in the right kind of flavor, you can pick an actually useful feat that does the same thing only better. Or you can declare that your character is good at enduring things, and give him higher Con.

But as hard as it is for you to grasp the concept: There are people who like their characters to follow a certain vision they have about that character. If Endurance happens to fit that description, they will pick it over, say, Jump of the Heavens or Power Attack or Shock Trooper.

I know there are such people. Because I am one of them. I like my characters to follow my vision. So if I want them to be good at enduring things, I give them a high Con, and if I want them to be good fighters, I give them feats based on their fighting style, and if I want them to be Wilderness savvy, or self sufficient, I put ranks in Survival and Knowledge Nature.

Because believe it or not, not having Endurance doesn't make you less Enduring. Taking Great Fortitude instead makes you more enduring, not having self sufficient doesn't make you go buy food. You can still kill a boar and eat it.

Most feats are just not as good as several dozen others, mechanically, so you can't 'afford' to take them if you want to coax some extra 'power' out of your 'built'

1) You mean 'build.'

2) Stop putting things in quotes just to condescend to people.

3) Most feats don't accurately represent their names, but some stupid people think that a name is more important then an effect, so they stupidly do things that make their character less like their inner vision, and then insult people who are smart enough to make their characters more like their vision.

All I am saying is that a feat that is mechanically inferior, still can have saving graces for people who like roleplay more then rollplay. And are willing to pay the price. You aren't so this is not for you. But you are not the only player in the world. So your vote on the matter is exactly that: One. Vote.

No it can't. A feat that doesn't make your character stronger is not a feat for a strong character to take. They should take some other feat that actually makes them strong.

Similarly, a feat that doesn't make your character able to endure more, should be ignored in favor of a feat that actually does.

Nope, it's an entirely subjective question; there isn't a universal answer to whether something has value; it varies depending on who is being asked.

No, it's an entirely objective question, and value is measured in objective standards. One dollar is worth less than two dollars. If you intend to make attack roles with the same weapon every time, Endurance is worth less than Weapon Focus. If you intend to make primarily charge attacks with power attack, Shocktrooper is worth more than Weapon focus.

That's the way the world works. Just because you wish there was no right and wrong (probably because you enjoy picking bad feats just to pick bad feats and pretend to be superior to those evil Munchkins) doesn't change that there is.

[Ozymandias]

A feat can suck in two ways: It can be not worth the mechanical effect (Endurance for example), or they can have atrocious 'fluff' (Manyshot. One of my friends is an engineer and he just can't get over the two arrows fired at once apparently having the same kinetic energy...).

PROTIP:

So here's a thread for what feats suck mechanically and are generally just not worth the feat slot.

(Emphasis mine.)

[MickJay]

You've just made my day.

[SurlySeraph]

This thread sucks and is now about skills that suck.

Seriously, when does Forgery ever come up? Even in political intrigue campaigns, whether it works or not is pretty much entirely DM fiat.

[Blood_Lord]

This thread sucks and is now about skills that suck.

Seriously, when does Forgery ever come up? Even in political intrigue campaigns, whether it works or not is pretty much entirely DM fiat.

Decipher Script is made of fail. Comprehend Languages is an insta win for such things. Spellcraft actually does the only Deciphering that comes up more then once every six levels.

[Fax Celestis]

I have never seen anyone actually make a Use Rope check.

[Kurald Galain]

Equines may be opaque, but they are indeed able to sleep while standing (and do so most of the time)!

How do you know that no equines are transparent? You just haven't seen any that are!

[monty]

How do you know that no equines are transparent? You just haven't seen any that are!

He did say they "may" be opaque.

[Lycar]

{Scrubbed}

[KKL]

This thread sucks and is now about skills that suck.

Seriously, when does Forgery ever come up? Even in political intrigue campaigns, whether it works or not is pretty much entirely DM fiat.

The fun thing aobut Forgery is that Forgery opposes it, so the only real way for you to be countered is DM fiat or specifically built NPCs. :D

[Toliudar]

I've entirely abandoned the "Gather Information" skill in the games I DM. Seriously, we need YET ANOTHER skill that says "I'm good at getting what I want out of people"? Can you think of any reason that this can't be handled by roleplay and diplomacy checks?

[chiasaur11]

So, I figure at least some of the knowledge skills aren't useful.

I mean, most of the time, knowing the local royalty?

Not that useful.

[Eldariel]

This thread sucks and is now about skills that suck.

Seriously, when does Forgery ever come up? Even in political intrigue campaigns, whether it works or not is pretty much entirely DM fiat.

Why can't we talk about skills that suck in a thread about skills that suck? Btw, Forgery is an awesome skill because nobody else ever takes it. This means that you can easily issue orders to armies or get free goods by royal edict and so on. Really, the whole 3.5 skill system is awesome if just everyone had like twice (or more) the skill points they have right now.

The only reason Forgery is so rarely taken is because you need your skillpoints for your character's primary talents and to stay alive. You shouldn't need to be unable to stay alive just because you want to learn some interesting skills too.

Really, stuff like Forgery, Appraise, Knowledge: Architecture, Crafts, Professions and so on are all trampled on just 'cause the game gives all characters too few skillpoints. Either the system should have less skills or characters should get more points; I prefer a combination of the two.

[Toliudar]

Well, knowing the local royalty is often VERY helpful. Especially for an adventurer who's just been sentenced to death, and looking for a royal pardon...

But yes, Knowledge Nobility is mostly nice for the synergy bonus to diplomacy. Who says good manners don't get you anywhere?

[Thurbane]

I have never seen anyone actually make a Use Rope check.

We actually used this skill for the first time ever Monday night!

It invloved tying an animal companion riding dog to the back of a Spider Climbing Dwarf (long story!)

[FMArthur]

Why can't we talk about skills that suck in a thread about skills that suck? Btw, Forgery is an awesome skill because nobody else ever takes it. This means that you can easily issue orders to armies or get free goods by royal edict and so on. Really, the whole 3.5 skill system is awesome if just everyone had like twice (or more) the skill points they have right now.

The only reason Forgery is so rarely taken is because you need your skillpoints for your character's primary talents and to stay alive. You shouldn't need to be unable to stay alive just because you want to learn some interesting skills too.

Really, stuff like Forgery, Appraise, Knowledge: Architecture, Crafts, Professions and so on are all trampled on just 'cause the game gives all characters too few skillpoints. Either the system should have less skills or characters should get more points; I prefer a combination of the two.

Maybe skills should be separated into two groups: put all of the relatively inconsequential skills into a separate group from the rest, and give separate skill points for these that are not interchangeable with the skill points used for important skills.

Actually, I just may do that right now.

[Thurbane]

*sigh* I guess I just can't help myself, but...

No, it's an entirely objective question, and value is measured in objective standards. One dollar is worth less than two dollars.

Incorrect analogy. Your arguments are more like "apples are better than oranges". You're not arguing absolute numerical values, you're arguing situational numerical values and personal preferences. Over and over again.

If you intend to make attack roles with the same weapon every time, Endurance is worth less than Weapon Focus. If you intend to make primarily charge attacks with power attack, Shocktrooper is worth more than Weapon focus.

Emphasis mine.

You've completely undermined your own arguments - you just switched sides to agreeing that some feats are better than other in specific builds or situations. Your position has gone from "some feats just plain suck" to "some feats just plain suck for specific builds".

That's the way the world works.

It certainly seems to be the way Blood Lord World works. I don't think you even realize you are doing it, but you aren't able to distinguish between opinions and facts, time and time again.

Just because you wish there was no right and wrong (probably because you enjoy picking bad feats just to pick bad feats and pretend to be superior to those evil Munchkins) doesn't change that there is.

And throw in a Strawman to boot.

Decipher Script is made of fail. Comprehend Languages is an insta win for such things. Spellcraft actually does the only Deciphering that comes up more then once every six levels.

...here again we see the example of how you assume that every group games exactly the way yours does. What if there was no caster with Comprehend Languages in the group at the time, or no one with UMD and a convenient supply of scrolls/wands?

But obviously this situation would never actually happen to anyone out there, or if it did, their group are apparently a group of incompetents because they didn't have the exact same contingencies planned for as yours does.

Before you howl me down, I am NOT saying that DS is a great skill, I'm playing Devil's Advocate. Just saying that you seem to decry things assuming all games run exactly as yours does...

[Blood_Lord]

{Scrubbed}

[Eldariel]

Maybe skills should be separated into two groups: put all of the relatively inconsequential skills into a separate group from the rest, and give separate skill points for these that are not interchangeable with the skill points used for important skills.

Actually, I just may do that right now.

I've been thinking of doing that too. In general, grouping skills could lead to a whole lot of awesome. One thing I was thinking of is splitting skills to physicals and mentals and giving bonus points to mentals through Int like usual, but giving bonuses to physicals through a physical stat. That would, among others, solve the idiocy that animals somehow suck at all physical things 'cause they don't have Int and thus can't get max ranks in more than one skill.

[Blood_Lord]

{Scrubbed}

[SparkMandriller]

I've gotta say, if Endurance needs like a whole page of arguments to prove that it's possible for one of its benefits to even take effect, it might just be a bad feat.



Just maybe.

[Signmaker]

I've gotta say, if Endurance needs like a whole page of arguments to prove that it's possible for one of its benefits to even take effect, it might just be a bad feat.



Just maybe.

Actually, I think it's degraded down to horse-preservation tactics. Which is silly, because horses can usually be replaced, and if they can't, then they are probably the kind that can fight back (I'm looking at youuuu, trained character mount!).

Now, here's the really, really simple rundown.
Mechanically? Endurance is bad. Its uses are limited and can be replaced by items that cost very little. Even if you run a low-magic world, there are better feats to take that will probably allow your character to survive a tad longer. And since this thread is focused around MECHANICAL fail, I think the Endurance discussion can stop. Unless, of course, the Endurance supporters took Endurance, and are thus more hardy and can fruitlessly debate the issue much longer.

Mechanically failed feats? How about Touch of Golden Ice? Amazing concept, but it only works well if you have multiple attacks that connect, and then require a fort save easy to pass for creatures you would normally want to apply it to. You're lucky if the encounter doesn't die before the Touch actually works its magic.

[monty]

Mechanically failed feats? How about Touch of Golden Ice? Amazing concept, but it only works well if you have multiple attacks that connect, and then require a fort save easy to pass for creatures you would normally want to apply it to. You're lucky if the encounter doesn't die before the Touch actually works its magic.

On the other hand, there's really not that many Exalted feats worth taking, and the more saves your opponent has to make, the higher their chances of rolling a 1. It came in useful a few times on my VoP swordsage.

[Eldariel]

On the other hand, there's really not that many Exalted feats worth taking, and the more saves your opponent has to make, the higher their chances of rolling a 1. It came in useful a few times on my VoP swordsage.

The bigger problem with it is the amount of extra die rolls it forces. It can really slow combat down a lot.