Inflicting Cleric

[Djibriel]

It is my wish to make a fun Cleric to show the world you can take a strong class and make it fun in a non-optimized party by focusing on less-then-stellar attributes of the class. This Neutral Cleric shall use Inflict spells (and similair Touch spells) almost exclusively.

ECL 6, Eberron setting, no alternative systems allowed (ToB, ToM, Psionics and Incarnum) allowed. This is because our DM has severe time constraints. We don't specifically care.

My current idea is Monk of the Sleeping Tiger 1/Cleric of The Devourer 5. Str 10, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 10. I really like the fluff of being able to wear what I want without clanking in it. Sleeping Tiger gets me a free Weapon Finesse, and since I don't need the Strenght for damage (the spell), to hit (Finesse) or carrying (Monk), I can safely ignore the stat, much like Int. and Cha.

I couldn't think of anything to direclty increase the potency of the Inflict spells, since spontaneous spells can't be affected by Metamagic (right?). So I was either thinking Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack (you can cast the spell and hold the charge, then touch the target as part of the Spring Attack) or Mobile Spellcasting from C. Adventurer (steep Concentration check are required, though...DC 20 plus spell level, and at level 6 I have a +11 modifier without feats) to do a similair thing.

Also, anything with full BAB and close-to-full divine caster progression would be ideal, unless the prereqs are bad.

Any thoughts on how to make this work (better)? I was also considering a Halfling Monk 2/Cleric 4, as they gain a lot and lose little for this build; a limited Skirmish ability that scales with character level while losing Flurry, bonus to AC and hit, Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat at 2nd level, a free-for-all Bonus Feat at first level and some random skill bonuses, all useful to this Monk.

[RebelRogue]

I've done such a build before, and it was great fun (level 6 too, even). We used the standard D&D pantheon, in which I chose St. Cuthbert to get the Destruction Domain. The smiting ability is great for this, especially with Extra Smiting. Also, Spell Focus (Necromancy) is an obvious choice.

[Swooper]

There's a spell in the SpC called Spell Flower that allows you to hold charges for multiple touch spells.

Also, look up the Smite Spell metamagic feat. Channel touch spells through your weapon at the cost of +1 spell level. You can't do it for spontaneous casting, but you can still memorize Inflict spells. I'm not sure if your weapon (or unarmed) damage is going to be worth using this, but it's there.

[KillianHawkeye]

I've done such a build before, and it was great fun (level 6 too, even). We used the standard D&D pantheon, in which I chose St. Cuthbert to get the Destruction Domain. The smiting ability is great for this, especially with Extra Smiting. Also, Spell Focus (Necromancy) is an obvious choice.

I was going to ask about the Spell Focus (Necromancy) until I looked up the Inflict Wounds spells and realized that they really are Necromancy spells! I hadn't realized that. It strikes me as odd that the Cure Wounds spells are Conjuration (Healing) while the Inflicts are Necromancy, since they are essentially the same spells with reversed effects. I had always just assumed that they were the same school.

[Tempest Fennac]

This came up in the homebrew section. I tend to think the spells being in separate schools makes sense based on Reiki (which uses positive energy) not being able to jurt anyone, and Necromancy is only concerned with negative energy rather then positive energy.

Could you ask the DM to let you use a homebrew feat which is the same as Augment Healing which uses Inflict spells? That would help a bit with damage.

[Undead Prince]

This Neutral Cleric shall use Inflict spells (and similair Touch spells) almost exclusively.

Screw the Inflict spells, they suck so much it isn't funny. Other touch spells, OTOH... >8=))

Cleric 5/Paragnostic Apostle 5
Domains: Undeath + Divine Magician [Spontaneous Domain Casting]
1. CLERIC 1 ||| Reach Spell, Divine Metamagic: Reach, Split Ray, Divine Metamagic: Split (Human + 2 flaws)
2. CLERIC 1
3. CLERIC 1 Rapid Metamagic
4. CLERIC 1
5. CLERIC 1
6. PARAGNOSTIC APOSTLE 1 ||| Leadership (Wizard cohort to be turned into Incantatrix) ||| Get Slaymate (-1 to costs of all Metamagic feats on Necromancy spells) ||| REACH RAPID SPLIT GHOUL GLYPH
7. PARAGNOSTIC APOSTLE 2 ||| SPLIT ENERVATION
8. PARAGNOSTIC APOSTLE 3
9. PARAGNOSTIC APOSTLE 4||| Master of Undeath ||| Your Incantatrix now ready to Persist all your buffs and supply Persistent Polymorphing and Hasting, as well as Quickening in combat ||| REACH SPLIT SLAY LIVING
10. PARAGNOSTIC APOSTLE 5

OFFENCE RANGED:

QUICKENED REACH RAPID SPLIT GHOUL GLYPH: 4 creatures per round, at 30 ft, paralyzed for 1d6+2 rounds with no save/no attack roll to speak of;

QUICKENED SPLIT ENERVATION: 10 negative levels on 1 creature per round, at 75 ft, no save;

QUICKENED REACH SPLIT SLAY LIVING: 4 creatures per round at 30ft range have to save or die; or 2 creatures have to save twice or die.

Caster Level 20 (or more; Persistent Consumptive Field)

All of these, as well as any other Reach-Split combos, are useable up to 8 times/day (10 with Nightstick) without increasing the spell slot. I.e. you cast that Quickened Reach Split Ghoul Glyph from a 2nd level slot.

Paragnostic Apostle offensive bonuses:

+1 Caster level vs. SR and for dispelling;
+1 DC, +2 turning level vs. Undead (good for Commanding);
+1 Caster Level for spells on any Domain's spell list (e.g. Undeath to create more/more powerful Undead);
+1 DC to all spells vs. humanoids

Apart from that, this build can be an enormous melee powerhouse. And I mean HUGE CoDZilla (what with >20 Caster Level and Cohort Persistifying your buffs). Also, you can have >80 HD of animated Undead + one free Undead creature of any HD + Commanded intelligent Undead (e.g. Vampires). But you want to focus on the weaker abilities, so you're free not to use this potential.

[Douglas]

You appear to have missed the sentence before the one you quoted, Undead Prince. Djibriel is deliberately trying to match his power to an unoptimized party.

since spontaneous spells can't be affected by Metamagic

Where'd you get that idea? Sorcerers can use metamagic just fine, and so can clerics with their spontaneous spells.

[KillianHawkeye]

Screw the Inflict spells, they suck so much it isn't funny. Other touch spells, OTOH... >8=))

Cleric 5/Paragnostic Apostle 5
....
....
.... build/etc. ....
....
....

OFFENCE RANGED:

QUICKENED REACH RAPID SPLIT GHOUL GLYPH: .......
QUICKENED SPLIT ENERVATION: .......
QUICKENED REACH SPLIT SLAY LIVING: .......

.... blah blah blah .... Persistent Consumptive Field .... .... Reach-Split combos .... .... HUGE CoDZilla .... blah blah blah .... >80 HD of animated Undead .... ....

But you want to focus on the weaker abilities, so you're free not to use this potential.

Your advice appears to be out of place when you consider that this thread is clearly about a non-optimized approach to being a Cleric.

Yes, yes, we all know that you want all Clerics to be uber Necro-ClericZillas with their own pet Incantatrix and a veritable army of recursively commanded undead at their beck and call. But seriously, while it was at least on topic in the Necromancer thread the other day, this information is completely useless to the OP and explicitly contrary to the OP's goal.

[RebelRogue]

Sorcerers can use metamagic just fine, and so can clerics with their spontaneous spells.

Sort of overlooked this, but if you want to go this route, Empower Spell (possibly paired with Divine Metamagic: Empower) might be a viable path too. You haven't got a lot of Feats to burn though, so choose wisely.

[Undead Prince]

You appear to have missed the sentence before the one you quoted, Undead Prince. Djibriel is deliberately trying to match his power to an unoptimized party.

And you appeared to have missed the sentence in my post which clearly stated:

But you want to focus on the weaker abilities, so you're free not to use this potential.

Your advice appears to be out of place when you consider that this thread is clearly about a non-optimized approach to being a Cleric

.

Let's see again.

It is my wish to make a fun Cleric to show the world you can take a strong class and make it fun in a non-optimized party by focusing on less-then-stellar attributes of the class. This Neutral Cleric shall use Inflict spells (and similair Touch spells) almost exclusively.

The party is non-optimized, not the Cleric. I.e. he takes a strong class, and deliberately focuses on its weaker abilities to be more on the level of the other characters, which are not optimized.

this information is completely useless to the OP and explicitly contrary to the OP's goal.

Neutral Cleric? Check. Inflict Spells or similar Touch Spells? Check. Focusing on less-than-stellar attributes? Check. Fun to play? You bet!

In fact, this character would be particularly useful to a non-optimized party. Because it's so flexible, it can use its powers in such a way as to augment the party's weaknesses/deficiencies. E.g. bad fighter/low on meatshields? Whip out the Undead. No face? Diplomacy skill. Lots of melee, but no ranged? Spellcasting. This makes the game more fun for everybody, and avoids frustration from having sub-par characters.

And you can easily regulate the power output by abstaining from using some of the abilities, so as not to overshine other players should you deem it necessary.

Should you want to nerf the build, throw out Leadership and Master of Undeath. This keeps the core capacities without anything groundbreaking.

Yes, yes, we all know that you want...

You may know that, but what makes you think the OP does? The build I offer is perfectly in line with his requirements, so make do without groundless accusations of being off-topic, and ditch the personal attacks.

[Douglas]

Neutral Cleric? Check. Inflict Spells or similar Touch Spells? Check. Focusing on less-than-stellar attributes? Check. Fun to play? You bet!

Matching a non-optimized party? Er, not so much.

In fact, this character would be particularly useful to a non-optimized party. Because it's so flexible, it can use its powers in such a way as to augment the party's weaknesses/deficiencies. E.g. bad fighter/low on meatshields? Whip out the Undead. No face? Diplomacy skill. Lots of melee, but no ranged? Spellcasting. This makes the game more fun for everybody, and avoids frustration from having sub-par characters.

That's like saying pun-pun would be particularly useful to a non-optimized party. The point is not to have a ridiculously overpowered character and just not use any of his power, the point is to have the character's actual power be in line with the party.

You may know that, but what makes you think the OP does? The build I offer is perfectly in line with his requirements, so make do without groundless accusations of being off-topic, and ditch the personal attacks.

The OP asked for help making a somewhat effective non-optimized character with a specific focus. You immediately responded with an extremely powergamed character. The build you suggested is so far beyond the power level the OP asked for it isn't funny.

[KillianHawkeye]

The party is non-optimized, not the Cleric. I.e. he takes a strong class, and deliberately focuses on its weaker abilities to be more on the level of the other characters, which are not optimized.

Regardless of class choice, deliberately (or not) focusing on weaker abilities is the very definition of non-optimal.

Neutral Cleric? Check. Inflict Spells or similar Touch Spells? Check. Focusing on less-than-stellar attributes? Check. Fun to play? You bet!

Well, I guess I disagree that the build you suggested is non-optimal, or "focusing on less-than-stellar attributes" in any way. The OP asked for non-optimal and you suggested ClericZilla.

And you can easily regulate the power output by abstaining from using some of the abilities, so as not to overshine other players should you deem it necessary.

Should you want to nerf the build, throw out Leadership and Master of Undeath. This keeps the core capacities without anything groundbreaking.

Okay, you see this? This just proves that you put in excessively strong abilities (compared to the power level shown by the OP) if you have to take away stuff to not outshine the other party members. Plus, he'd have to take away more than just those two feats to accomplish that.

You can't possibly deny that combos like Quickened Reach Split Slay Living and Persisted Consumptive Field, with a Caster Level of 20 at Level 10 and a cohort with an overpowered Prestige Class are hideously overpowered and far beyond the needs of the OP, can you??

P.S. Make do without the groundless accusations of being off-topic, and personal attacks.

At no point did I engage in any personal attacks against you, nor do I believe the accusation of being off-topic was "groundless". But if you suggest on continuing this discussion, perhaps you can start a different thread about how your way is the only way and all of us here are wrong.

P.S. D&D is a game. Please don't take it so personally.

EDIT: Dangit, douglas! Stop ninja'ing me!

[Djibriel]

This makes the game more fun for everybody, and avoids frustration from having sub-par characters.

The frustration, in my experience, only arises when it is made apparant by monsters just a a tad too strong (which the DM can keep track of) or other PCs operating on full capacity. It's a great build, but not what I am looking for.

What I have landed on is this, a Halfling Cleric of the Blood of Vol: Agressive, Spellgifted (Necromancy), Weak Will, Improved Unarmed Strike, Wis to AC, Skirmish (+1d6, +1 AC), Dodge, Weapon Finesse, Evasion, Evil Aura, Rebuke Undead, Death Domain, Necromancer Domain, Cleric Spells, Mobility, Spring Attack, Maximize Spell, Mastery of Day and Night.

All Inflict spells are maximized without additional cost, Necromancer spells +2 caster level, Death Touch 1/day, no saves below 8, Evasion, AC 18 or more without armor (Dodge, Skirmish, Mobility), +8 touch attacks dealing 24 damage 4/day and 16 damage 5/day. Good Initiative, shouldn't need to end his rounds in threatened area's. He'll just use Necromancy spells, but not the Undead-related kind (just Inflict, Doom, Death Knell, etc.)

Reach Spell and Divine Metamagic (Reach Spell) would be ideal crunch-wise, but I really like the idea of grabbing people in the face and melt it. There's a reason his project name is 'Scar'

[KillianHawkeye]

I like this build. It looks like it will probably be fun to play.

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..
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And that's the point, after all, isn't it??

[Undead Prince]

I guess I disagree that the build you suggested is non-optimal, or "focusing on less-than-stellar attributes" in any way.

It IS focusing on touch spells, the VERY THING the OP suggested as a "non-optimal" ability.

The OP asked for non-optimal and you suggested ClericZilla.

I did NOT suggest CoDZilla, I said he has the capacity, or potential for one. ANY cleric has such capacity/potential.

perhaps you can start a different thread about how your way is the only way and all of us here are wrong.

I think YOU are the one who claims that YOUR way is the only way and my way is wrong.

The build you suggested is so far beyond the power level the OP asked for it isn't funny.

The BUILD I suggested is perfectly adequate. The only "overpowered" ability may be Leadership - well, feel free not to take it! Everything else boils down to the Reach Spell + Divine Metamagic combo, which incidentally got the green light from the OP:

Reach Spell and Divine Metamagic (Reach Spell) would be ideal crunch-wise

Now the WAYS to use this build are, indeed, numerous. You are not, however, OBLIGED to use them - just as you are not obliged to make use of any cleric's CoDZilla potential.

Anyway, I guess the thread has exhausted itself.

[KillianHawkeye]

I wasn't going to reply again, but I feel the need to at least defend myself.

It IS focusing on touch spells, the VERY THING the OP suggested as a "non-optimal" ability.

Yeah, but you went ahead and optimized his non-optimal strategy, which seems counter to the OP's intentions (as backed up by the OP).

I did NOT suggest CoDZilla, I said he has the capacity, or potential for one. ANY cleric has such capacity/potential.

Well actually...

Apart from that, this build can be an enormous melee powerhouse. And I mean HUGE CoDZilla (what with >20 Caster Level and Cohort Persistifying your buffs). Also, you can have >80 HD of animated Undead + one free Undead creature of any HD + Commanded intelligent Undead (e.g. Vampires). But you want to focus on the weaker abilities, so you're free not to use this potential.

... you did.

I think YOU are the one who claims that YOUR way is the only way and my way is wrong.

I don't even have a way in this instance, therefore it is impossible for my way to be the only way. I only said (and the OP confirmed) that your way is not what the OP wanted or asked for. Please stop attacking me.

Beyond those points, it is clear that we have wildly differing definitions of the terms overpowered, optimized, sub-optimal, perfect, adequate, and weak. Which is fine, so long as we keep ourselves aware of these differences.

I think you are used to playing in a certain high-powered, optimized way that not everyone has in common. Which is just fine, too, if that is the game you like to play. I have nothing against your style. It just wasn't the OP's style.

Anyway, I guess the thread has exhausted itself.

I agree.

[Who_Da_Halfling]

Interesting how the point you all focused on was how the build was too optimized and not on how it was ECL 10 when the OP asked for ECL 6 (I'm pretty sure that removes a lot of the cool abilities in the build).

On topic, I think this is a really cool idea and I hope it works out well. I might suggest avoiding the pantheon and choosing your own domains since the Death domain grants some pretty useful stuff (Death Touch, additional Slay Living).

Enjoy the low touch AC of most monsters!

-JM