Seeking advice on karmic justice for a PC...

[Damos Taranth]

Okay, to set the scene:

The PCs were trapped in a semi-sentient private pocket prison hell dimension. Sucks to be them.

However, they discovered a way out, by basically tricking the prison into thinking that they are still there while catapulting themselves out. The catch was, in order for them to trick it, they each had to sacrifice something of themselves - something significant and intrinsic.

It didn't have to be something -valuable- to them - indeed, one of the PCs sacrificed their ability to feel pain, emotional or physical. Technically they still feel it, but any emotional attachment to it is lost - which on the one hand means that they function perfectly well through horrible torture (and indeed have since endured horrible torture without blinking, much to the frustration of the torturer) but have a much harder time figuring out when they're in danger (effectively, they have "Fine", "Wounded" and "Dead" instead of a knowledge of their HP) and a tendency to rather disturbingly laugh at things which the others find unpleasant.

Other sacrifices included "my wings" (A winged girl who could not actually fly with her wings, but they had great spiritual significance), "my health" (a flat -2 con), "my left hand" (The party barbarian felt that whatever damage that might do to his combat ability, he was NOT letting this place into his head) "my ability to reproduce" (Unfortunately for the somewhat flirtatious character who took this, it also took any DESIRE to reproduce with it...) and "my compassion" (One of two remaining good-aligned characters in the party, who was beginning to feel that his conscience was interfering with the jobs that had to be done...)

But one character, the party wizard, who is an extremely cold-attitude knowledge-is-everything woman who portrays herself as a necromancer because it tends to lead to less necessary social interaction, decided she would be clever and sacrifice "Her chance of finding true love" - something that she never really had any interest in in the first place, but when push comes to shove is an integral part of her destiny - and effectively sacrificing part of your fate into the hands of an evil god is generally... unwise.

The player spoke to me afterwards and agreed that he had every expectation that this bit of clever maneuvering would come back to bite her in the backside, so I'm not going to lose a friend over doing so :)

I've come up with a few ideas for ways to have this hit her, but I'm yet to discern a satisfyingly devastating one - so I'm throwing it out to the largest conglomeration of roleplayers I know off the top of my head.

Any suggestion as to what horrible fate should befall this tricksey wizard? =D

[kamikasei]

Take it literally? For some reason, the person who would have been her true love is someone the party really, really needs to find and meet. Her sacrifice works by ensuring they never come in contact.

[Tempest Fennac]

I agree with kamikasei. How did the PCs end up there in the first place, and will it be possible for the PCs to get what they lost back? I know it's not the sort of game I'd enjoy due to featuring torture, but I'd sooner roll up a new character then end up with 2 less Con points or end up without a hand perminantly.

[Dervag]

Honestly, I think the guy who lost 2 Con got off way too easily compared to the others. I think most people, if offered a choice like that, would give up the 2 Con.

Anyway, I debate the premise of however this works out being karmic justice, but if you're looking for a way for it to bite the character who gave up "true love" then kamikasei's suggestion is a good one.

Or, with the player's consent, this can set off a tragic downfall in which the character becomes the sort of person no one could ever conceivably love. Given the kinds of people who have been loved by someone in real life, that's pretty frightening.

[Tempest Fennac]

What makes you say that, Derveg? I tend to be a power gamer in both real life and when playing games so I'd never consider taking any sort of disability like that. To be fair, not caring about emotions or reproduicing would mean I probably wouldn't be able to take those (I only experience negative emotions strongly and I hate the idea of having children).

[hewhosaysfish]

Perhaps the PC falls in love with someone (or a succession of someones) who is entirely unsuitable, creepy, dangerous, homicidal, working for the enemy or any combination of these?

[Woodsman]

Actually, it's generally better to go with a tragedy on these things.

You should have her fall in love, all right, but have the guy (or girl, I dunno) either be killed or leave her for someone else. That's generally how these things work out, at least in my opinion.

[Dyllan]

I realize that when she said "Her chance of finding true love," she was referring only to a romantic relationship with the one person who was right for her.

However, that's only one form of love.

The love of a friend for another is still true.

The love of a parent for a child is true.

The love of many of the good dieties for their followers... or in some cases for those who aren't their followers, is true.

So make her be the one mortal that every god hates. Make her parents turn her back on her. Her only "friends" are false, and pretend at friendship only to get something from her. Talk to the rest of the players without her knowledge and ask that they treat her differently as well. They still want her around, for her usefulness, but none of them really care for her any longer.

The only "love" she'll ever experience is a sham... absolutely no one will ever care for her again. Churches will refuse to heal her unless she makes a hefty donation, while they heal her companions for free out of compassion. Every diplomacy roll she makes will have a penalty (unless the person already had reason to hate her, in which case the penalties don't stack). You get the idea.

[magic9mushroom]

I realize that when she said "Her chance of finding true love," she was referring only to a romantic relationship with the one person who was right for her.

However, that's only one form of love.

The love of a friend for another is still true.

The love of a parent for a child is true.

The love of many of the good dieties for their followers... or in some cases for those who aren't their followers, is true.

So make her be the one mortal that every god hates. Make her parents turn her back on her. Her only "friends" are false, and pretend at friendship only to get something from her. Talk to the rest of the players without her knowledge and ask that they treat her differently as well. They still want her around, for her usefulness, but none of them really care for her any longer.

The only "love" she'll ever experience is a sham... absolutely no one will ever care for her again. Churches will refuse to heal her unless she makes a hefty donation, while they heal her companions for free out of compassion. Every diplomacy roll she makes will have a penalty (unless the person already had reason to hate her, in which case the penalties don't stack). You get the idea.

Upon which the character becomes an Ur-Priest and goes to town.

[Tempest Fennac]

Sticking strictly to the letter of what she gave up, I don't think that would work, Dyllan. To be fair, I'd be tempted to let the player get away with giving that up solely because their character isn't likely to suffer for it.

Now that I think about it, was there a way of escaping without taking those penalties?

[Xuincherguixe]

At one point, the PCs get trapped. What was supposed to happen, is that some villainous hence person would have found that they were drawn to the Necromancer. Over time, they would have found that this was something missing from her life, and would gradually become less selfish.

Instead, they kill the master, and take over. Being an order of magnitude more dangerous. Someone ruthless, who understands tactics, and thinks ahead.

[Kantur]

What about having a very powerful wizard with access to well guarded, very powerful knowledge become interested in the character, offering her a chance to visit and use the resources there as he had a great respect for someone so thirsty for knowedge and power that they'd give up true love?

The catch being, that only this wizard can grant access and remove the various protective wards, but every single time they arrange to meet so the character can access this knowlege, something happens. Usually something highly improbable that could only happen surely by fate inself conspiring to keep them apart...

[Damos Taranth]

The idea that it's someone the party desperately needed to find - and/or the party getting a brand new evil wizard enemy, a general result of sacrificing your true love to an evil god - has been played with and discarded, mainly because it's too general - the whole party has to deal with it, instead of just the wizard. Her sacrifice should be HER problem. ^_^

How did the PCs end up there in the first place, and will it be possible for the PCs to get what they lost back? I know it's not the sort of game I'd enjoy due to featuring torture, but I'd sooner roll up a new character then end up with 2 less Con points or end up without a hand perminantly.

I've ruled that it may be possible for the PCs to get what they sacrificed back, but to do so would probably involve them delving into the personal hell of one of the most powerful evil gods and taking out a high-end demon - so not anytime soon. It was an awesome roleplaying moment - they were given a choice between losing something that would affect them statistically, or something entirely roleplaying based. I had veto power on what would be a sufficiently significant sacrifice, but they all came up with their choices themselves - and I'm honestly surprised how many of them chose statistical penalties over otherwise. Most of the characters were more willing to give up their combat ability than personality aspects of their character.

I love my group sometimes :)

To be fair, not caring about emotions or reproduicing would mean I probably wouldn't be able to take those (I only experience negative emotions strongly and I hate the idea of having children).

As mentioned, the sacrifices didn't have to be something they cared about or valued - only something significant. The ability to reproduce is a significant part of any living creature, and while you might not be able to get away with sacrificing compassion if it's not something your character feels often, there are still a bevy of emotional sacrifices available - not feeling hurt, or sad, or pained - or even giving up positive emotions, even ones such as vicious joy or smugness...

Or, with the player's consent, this can set off a tragic downfall in which the character becomes the sort of person no one could ever conceivably love. Given the kinds of people who have been loved by someone in real life, that's pretty frightening.

...This is a cute idea, but it has the unfortunate downside that the character was more or less this way to begin with XD Not exactly a social butterfly.

Those who mention HER falling in love have good ideas, but unfortunately it's completely out of character for her - to the point where she actually has placed most of her 'sympathetic' human emotions in her familiar. Love is a distraction. Caring for people is a distraction. Her raven tends to peck her whenever it thinks she's being too heartless - it's very compassionate indeed. Her raven is a distraction, but one that is far easier to shoo off at times :)

Dyllan's idea, on the other hand, has considerable merit... the magic that took the sacrifices wasn't exactly big on 'sticking strictly to the letter', as the one who sacrificed her ability to reproduce discovered...

While she is almost at that point anyway with the rest of the PCs, they're... very straightforward about people they don't trust or like. Very POINTY about people they don't trust or like. They wouldn't mince words with her - they'd either boot her or kill her.

But they could very well be exceptions considering they were all with her in the hell dimension...


Heh. Heh. Heh.

[Who_Da_Halfling]

I agree with Woodsman's idea. The problem of having true love just avoid them is that they'll never realize that this is happening in-game. The character will just go about her life oblivious.

The extreme of Dyllan's advice is particularly brutal and would be a good way to teach a Player a lesson on trying to metagame/power-game their way out of a situation (by deliberately sacrificing something they had no interest in using), but since the player was well aware of the trickiness of what they were doing and did it in-character, I don't think it's necessary to be so heavy-handed.

Making her a tragic love figure seems like an appropriate level of karma. Maybe she meets an extremely charismatic Wizard whose knowledge and expertise intensely attract her and she comes to love him, at which point you can do a couple of things. You could make their separation an act of the gods beyond their control, like the BBEG kills him and Soul Prison's him or something to prevent ressurrection (preferably something that destroys his soul forever so that there isn't a possibility of a quest to restore him). However, perhaps more interesting is having this person who is a perfect match for the PC be completely uninterested, or maybe even actively detesting of the PC. Thus, not only does she not get true love, she gets her heart stomped on by the one she thought she loved.

That would be a very wrenching storyline but it would definitely be karmic justice.

-JM

[Winterwind]

Just a random thought... what if her never finding true love meant she would never experience true love around her - not only for herself, but for noone? Have her be cursed by, somehow, incessantly and inadvertently, causing the break-ups of all romantic relationships she happens to come across, in a way where either one or both parties involved are perfectly aware of it being her fault, and call her out on it. You might also include the cooperation of two NPCs who were in love with each other prior to her curse causing her to break them up being crucial for something that she really, really wants.

Also, as a side note, that is an admirable group you have there, and an incredibly tense and awesome situation you created there, by the sounds of it. Congratulations.

[Farlion]

Just a quick though on my behalf. What if "true love" is something different for a socially cold character? If she is not really interested in loving other people, you might call her egoistic or self centered.

Who does an egoist love most? Herself. What if she starts to hate herself?

I think this could have some very interesting persepectives in your group.

Cheers,
Farlion

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks for explaining. I'd definitly go with something RP-based in that situation due to hating the idea of nerfing my characters (I'd probably just start with a new character in the event of a perminant nerf). How did they end up in that area, and which level are they at? Also, which level will they need to be at the the fight to get what they lost back? (I'm surprised a Regenerate wouldn't help the Barbarian).

[Starbuck_II]

Are we sure she said to love?
Not to Blave: so she gave her ability to bluff.

(Sorry, Princess Bride relates to this).

[Winterwind]

Just a quick though on my behalf. What if "true love" is something different for a socially cold character? If she is not really interested in loving other people, you might call her egoistic or self centered.

Who does an egoist love most? Herself. What if she starts to hate herself?

I think this could have some very interesting persepectives in your group.

This is a very interesting idea indeed.

Another take on this would be to interpret magic or true power, knowledge and/or understanding as the true love of her life, but I think Farlion's version is more interesting.

Though personally, I'm wary of prescribing the players changes of their character's personality - that's player domain, and should be strict taboo for the gamemaster...

(I'm surprised a Regenerate wouldn't help the Barbarian).

Considering it would take out all the meaning of the sacrifice and ruin the tragedy of the situation they found themselves in, I wouldn't be surprised if the barbarian's player didn't want such a simple solution to happen. Where is the drama in that?

And from an in-game perspective, my guess would be the special nature of how this loss occurred would prevent such a solution from working.

[Krrth]

Well, if you felt truly nasty, what if her one true love was....magic? She slowly looses her ability to cast magic, thus causing a series of quests.

[Slathe]

You described her as a "knowledge-is-everything" character, which to me sounds like her true love is her Intellect (or more broadly the knowledge that exists out there to be found, or, as the previous poster mentioned while I was writing this her magic).

I think restricting her ability to gain more knowledge / learn more spells / learn more about the world would be keeping her from ever gaining more knowledge than she has.

This can range from things as brutal as not allowing her to gain experience or gain new spells / spell levels, to something as RP heavy as making her character lose the ability to retain new information (no new long term memories). Maybe take away her ability to make knowledge checks because she no longer has a "chance" to "find" her "true love" (the knowledge she has as represented by a knowledge (arcana) or other knowledge check).

I'm sure there's a plethora of other ideas along this route too, and it does open up some interesting story opportunities.

[Lycanthromancer]

By the sounds of things, she doesn't love people.

However, I'm sure she has other goals, and is driven to accomplish them.

Make a point (in game) that she cannot accomplish those goals directly because of what she gave up.

Muahahahaha...

[Tempest Fennac]

I tend to look at things from a pure optimization perspective, Winter (I hate the idea of being disabled in anyway in real life, so that transfers to when I'm playing D&D as well, so I care much more about being as effective as possible then about drama*). I also think that picking something thart wouldn't nerf the character would make more sense from an IC perspective (I know from other posts that not everyone would agree with that view, though).

*This isn't intended as a criticism of anyone. It's just that I'm highly neurotic and one of the reasons I enjoy playing D&D is because it allows me to be much more effective then I am in real life. Admittedly, I tend to consider being unoptimized to be rude because it may end up hindering the rest of the group.

[Fireballing_Fun]

Any suggestion as to what horrible fate should befall this tricksey wizard? =D

Firstly I do think that the person who sacrificed pain and the person who sacrificed compassion should eventually have their alignments shifted towards evil. How can you be anything but evil when unable to empathise or care with/for human suffering?

As for the necromancer, on one hand thumbs up for that clever sacrifice, on the other hand thumbs down and a slap for being so weaselly.

She has sacrificed her chance at true love, but the character had no interest in romanance and is unwilling to develop one. Therefore her true love is not a possible partner. What does she love?
1: Knowledge?
2: Magic?
3: Necromancy?

Is it too late to deny her one of those? Say she can no longer learn new ranks or spells, or cast spells, or cast necromantic spells?

[Tempest Fennac]

I'd say that would be way too harsh (then again, I tend to be disappointed when players in my games aren't trying to outsmart me). Being serious, if she lost her magic, or at least a large part of it, would there be any point in the character not retiring on the spot?

[Winterwind]

I tend to look at things from a pure optimization perspective, Winter (I hate the idea of being disabled in anyway in real life, so that transfers to when I'm playing D&D as well, so I care much more about being as effective as possible then about drama*).

As I think I have expressed a few times on these forums, I have some fairly specific opinions as to what 'optimized' actually means and what the importance thereof is (optimized means, for me, an optimal reflection of who a character is supposed to be by the game's mechanics - and if the character was supposed to be weak, then creating a weak character would mean optimizing him).

*This isn't intended as a criticism of anyone. It's just that I'm highly neurotic and one of the reasons I enjoy playing D&D is because it allows me to be much more effective then I am in real life.

Fair enough. For me, playing roleplaying games is partially about exploring wondrous new lands on one hand and personalities on the other hand, but mostly about crafting breathtaking and immersive stories, and tragedy happening to the characters involved is one of my favourites (if I am a player, anyway).

Admittedly, I tend to consider being unoptimized to be rude because it may end up hindering the rest of the group.

That's a concept from a highly gamist playstyle - I wouldn't even know what exactly to consider hindering the group, as the game is, from my perspective, a story being told, with scenes that play out in or against the player characters' favour (and if it makes for a more interesting story, it might well be that the players themselves want that thing to happen that their characters wish to avoid), rather than a series of challenges to overcome, and even the existence of a group as such is not a given (the cooperation and time the characters spend together can vary largely depending on the premise of the story being told and the characters in question).


Let's just leave it at the realization that we have two completely polar attitudes towards the game, praise the diversity of the hobby that allows for such two completely different preferences to exist hand in hand, and not hijack this thread any longer with a topic that is of marginal relevance to it at best.

EDIT:

Being serious, if she lost her magic, or at least a large part of it, would there be any point in the character not retiring on the spot?

Why, that's the most interesting moment of them all! A wizard who lost her power, trying to cope with the loss, redefine who she is or struggling against fate that hurt her so badly with heroic defiance? What more could one wish for?
Though I will grant it would be extremely harsh and a massive trauma for the character in question. I think I would ask the player if she wanted such a massive turn-around in her character's story - it's too massive a change to follow through without player consent.

[Fireballing_Fun]

I'd say that would be way too harsh (then again, I tend to be disappointed when players in my games aren't trying to outsmart me). Being serious, if she lost her magic, or at least a large part of it, would there be any point in the character not retiring on the spot?

What does she truely love... she sacrificed it. It's harsh but she did it to herself!

If she meant a romantic relationship, when she is essentially asexual and not willing to develop the character down that route then she effectively 'cheated'.

[Gamiress]

I'd say that would be way too harsh (then again, I tend to be disappointed when players in my games aren't trying to outsmart me). Being serious, if she lost her magic, or at least a large part of it, would there be any point in the character not retiring on the spot?

Maybe the quest to get it back?

This thread is about a DM and players with a completely different outlook and playstyle from you. They want storytelling, they're willing to be 'nerfed' for drama, they obviously don't care much about powergaming or they wouldn't be giving up their hands and con scores. Are you sure this is a thread you're interested in?

[Aquillion]

Is it too late to deny her one of those? Say she can no longer learn new ranks or spells, or cast spells, or cast necromantic spells?

Losing her magic has the problems of being:

1. Not very interesting, and
2. Generally not fun at all for the player, since it means she has to sit back and do nothing during most encounters.

It feels less like an interesting thing to RP out, and more like an angry DM smite -- and it's been made clear here that the player hasn't cheated the rules (only the character; the player made it clear they expected to pay for it). The DM isn't interested in DM-smiting the player, only in finding a thematically interesting storyline.

Remember, there was nothing requiring that the players sacrifice anything 'mechanical'. The one who sacrificed their compassion, wings, or ability to reproduce didn't, say; they used the opportunity to redefine their character in some way, not to nerf themselves.

[tsuuga]

I rather like the idea that her True Love turns out to be somebody plot-important. As long as she's with the party, he becomes impossible to track down. He's always just left town or going to visit somebody. Or, alternatively, nobody can find him. As far as the poor guy knows, everyone's ignoring him, and as far as anyone else is concerned, he's disappeared.