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2009-04-19, 01:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Actual Use For Vop! Come One Come All!
Vop Monk/Forsaker from Masters of the Wild. The whole thing fits perfectly stat wise, and Im sure you could fit it together fluff wise as well...
Discuss.
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2009-04-19, 01:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2007
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- West Midlands, UK.
Re: Actual Use For Vop! Come One Come All!
What does the Forsaker PrC do exactly?
"It doesn't matter what you think I'm supposed to be, 'cause I myself know all too well." Line from "King of My World" by Saliva.
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2009-04-19, 01:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Actual Use For Vop! Come One Come All!
One question.
What are you going to do about the magic items you need to destroy to power the Forsaker? IIRC, they need to destroy a certain gp value magic item to keep some of their abilities.
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2009-04-19, 01:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Seattle, WA
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Re: Actual Use For Vop! Come One Come All!
Yea...doesn't work. You are supposed to be donating your WBL to charity, not smashing it to bits for marginal benefits.
I'll give it a 1.5 out of 5...
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2009-04-19, 01:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
Re: Actual Use For Vop! Come One Come All!
You know thinking about it...you could do it, you just have to donate any left over parts (expensive scrap) to charity. In addition there is always gems and coin of your share to donate.
Also if you have a cult that is obsessed with removing magic items and destroying them then it works even better. You donate it to them and X gp in magic items gets destroyed.I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.
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2009-04-19, 02:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2009
Re: Actual Use For Vop! Come One Come All!
If I remember correctly, this would not only sacrifice all your Magic Items for questionable benefits, but also any class abilities you might use to compensate for those weaknesses.
I think the only even vaguely appealing VoP* use was carnivore's plan -- taking the feat after spending all your dough on grafts, books and such. And even then only on a Cleric, Sorcerer or Druid.
*For the purpose of mechanical benefits. If you're using the fluff anyway, that feat's golden.Last edited by Bluebeard; 2009-04-19 at 02:06 AM.
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2009-04-19, 02:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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- Belgrade, Serbia
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Re: Actual Use For Vop! Come One Come All!
you could do it, you just have to donate any left over parts (expensive scrap)Common sense is not so common.
Nanfoodle the Maverick, Conjurer of expensive tricks
SpoilerOriginally Posted by I'm da Rogue!
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2009-04-19, 02:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Actual Use For Vop! Come One Come All!
A sorceror who loves changing into bizarre stuff via polymorph is still the best candidate for VoP. IMHO.
A forsaker with VoP, even if you can make it work, and aren't *expletive deleted* by the feat requirements, isn't really very good. You essentially end up with nothing more than a by the book replacement for all the stuff you have simultaneously destroyed/donated, just in the forsaker's case, possibly at lower levels (as you can take it as your second level if you're willing to take those feats instead of good ones).
The thing is, once you're done taking forsaker, those benefits are static, and you really can't *do* anything as a forsaker that's out of reach of another character type."It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
- Thomas Jefferson
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2009-04-19, 03:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Actual Use For Vop! Come One Come All!
When I was thinking about an Aslan build, I realized that VoP is a decent path for creatures like awakened animals, who are going to be pretty limited in what gear they can use anyway...
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2009-04-19, 08:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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Re: Actual Use For Vop! Come One Come All!
Actually, animals (and most creatures) can still equip a variety of magical items as they still have most of the equivalent item slots (depending on the animal's exact form) and most/all wearable items will resize to fit them. Thus, you can pass down old magic rings or whatever to your familiars or animal companions, etc.
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2009-04-19, 09:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
Re: Actual Use For Vop! Come One Come All!
By Core RAW, that's is strictly up to the DM, as all the books say in terms of who can wear magic items is "It’s possible for a creature with a humanoid-shaped body to wear as many as twelve magic items at the same time." - as the Core is silent about nonhumanoid-shaped bodies, it's up to the DM.
Granted, there's supplements of various natures that say you *should* be able to wear a subset of that in a nonhumanoid shaped body... but not all DM's accept all sources as valid, so that still comes down to DM call in which sources are permitted.Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2009-04-19, 09:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Actual Use For Vop! Come One Come All!
VoP druids arent too bad, because they get to use VoP while wildshaped.
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2009-04-19, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Actual Use For Vop! Come One Come All!
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2009-04-19, 09:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
Re: Actual Use For Vop! Come One Come All!
Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2009-04-19, 12:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Actual Use For Vop! Come One Come All!
If I remember correctly (can't find Masters of the Wild at the moment, just online descriptions of Forsaker), isn't the damage reduction the only thing you lose if you don't destroy the specified magic items? And, if so, there's no problem, since VoP gives that anyway.
Of course, my memory may be faultyLast edited by playswithfire; 2009-04-19 at 01:06 PM.
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2009-04-19, 12:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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Re: Actual Use For Vop! Come One Come All!
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2009-04-19, 02:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
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Re: Actual Use For Vop! Come One Come All!
My DM said that the "must destroy magic items" is bad; he thinks that the other players would get mad. He deleted that requirement from the Forsaker class.
But yeah, I see your point about it not being good. Magic items are really powerfull.
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2009-04-19, 02:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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- The Land of Cleves
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Re: Actual Use For Vop! Come One Come All!
I think the only even vaguely appealing VoP* use was carnivore's plan -- taking the feat after spending all your dough on grafts, books and such. And even then only on a Cleric, Sorcerer or Druid.Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
—As You Like It, III:ii:328
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Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics
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2009-04-19, 02:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2009
Re: Actual Use For Vop! Come One Come All!
{Scrubbed}
I've got a Rogue 2/Cleric 8(Good and Winter domains)/ Rimefire Witch 10/ Custom Class by DM 2. So basically ECL 22.This is a character I've been working on for 2 years now. The base creature is a spellscale,and with the fey apotheosis (Rimefire Witch class ability) he now has the fey type. The spellscales have a racial ability called Blood Quickening. Look up Races of the Dragon and see the lameness of it there. But basically it gives me metamagic feats as racial abilities if I do an hour long ritual each day. It also doesn't cause me to have to use a spell of a certain level higher while using them. Also, technically, if you're willing to sacrifice xp, you can use that for expensive material components for the vow.I got the VoP at character level 15th. Nw, at ECl 15th, on a recent mission, I was captured by an enemy that had a vendetta on the party for a long time and placed in a prison in the Nine Hells (as of now my character does know WHERE in the Nine-Hells, but it is there) They don't know I have the vow or the strength of my aura of good due to the VoP's alignment sheilding (mind shielding, and the aura can be turned off at will), so I slip out of the cuffs due tot he freedom of movement ability, free my cohort, and we go out to search for our stuff.
Now here is where it gets crazy, after taking out some advanced bone devils and after raiding the armory for our stuff (mostly my holy warrior (book of the righteous) cohort) we meet an advanced paeliryon (Fiend Folio) who attacked us with a quickened, empowered meteor swarm. We got hit for tons of damage, 275 hp to 191 even with resistance. So I pull out the big guns. Heres were it gets dumb. I have the purify spell feat (BoED) and I used it for Bolt of Glory (Spell Compendium, Cleric 6th) and it does 15d12 on evil outsiders/undead/inhabitants of the negative energy plane, and with the purify spell feat, each d12 becomes 3d6 (1d8 becomes 2d6, etc. basically an increase in die type) so it does 45d6 on this creature. But also, since I have three empowers a day (due to Blood Qiuckening) i use one. Just for sacrificing a 7th level spell slot, I just did 228 damage (and this was average rolling) to this Paeliryon, which had 400+ health. The good spells also killed its regeneration. It was down in two rounds, not before using enervation (some negative levels) on me. But hey, restoration fixed that right up. My cohort (cr 18) needed only tank a bit.
My DM was sweating bullets now, since this was the first time I used the feat, just to see if this would be effective. He then wonders should he really send the big bad of the prison, or whether me and my cohort would just snuff it. I said bring it on so we passed the paeliryon (who seemed to be the big bad's secretary) body and met the CR 30 (36 HD on top of other things) Pit Fiend. My character wanted to converse a bit before the showdown, but my cohort, who had been tortured badly prior to this, decided to rush him in rage, so I just opened fire and the battle was on. The starter was a Hammer of Righteousness (BoED, Cleric 3rd - omg!) with Purify Spell on it which came up from 20d8 to 40d6 and then I empowered it again, using a swift action to use assay spell resistance (Spell Compendium) cause I wasn't taking any chances. Even making the fort. save, it was 131 damage. He then proceded to try to tear my cohort to shreads, but even with the gay Divine Shield ability (Complete Divine) my cohort had and the fact he was rolling 1's like a bum, which hurt his +50 modifier to attack badly, he got her health down quick. I fire my suped-up Bolt of Glory two more times into him and he was stunned beyond belief (2nd round 231 damage, 3rd round, 253 damage) and my cohort telling me to just {Scrubbed} before he teles away.' The third round he had about enough of us and my cohort had about 23 out of 256 health left and the disease from the Pit Fiends claws was kicking in, so after one last BoG and a beautiful two hit combo from my cohort, AFTER the Pit Fiend crit failed on his last attack to kill her off, she got him down to -11 (both my spells and her weapons overcame his regeneration), he was defeated. His 700+ health was down in four rounds.
Now she is too powerful to be my cohort, since she is close to 22nd because of this, and I didn't take Epic Leadership (should I take it?) I got to 23rd, and about 10,000 XP from 24th. Needless to say, this made my weekend.
Long story short, not just the VoP, but the whole BoED is the haxxor.
Also, the other great combo for VoP is a cmobo of Monk/Fist of the Forest (Complete Champion).Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2009-04-19 at 05:33 PM.
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2009-04-19, 02:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Actual Use For Vop! Come One Come All!
{Scrubbed}
Anyway, you're level 22. Everything is broken at epic levels. We've all known that for a long time. Give a lower-level example, and maybe you'll have something of an argument.
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2009-04-19, 03:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Actual Use For Vop! Come One Come All!
{Scrubbed}
Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2009-04-19 at 05:28 PM.
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2009-04-19, 03:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-04-19, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- The Hurricane State
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Re: Actual Use For Vop! Come One Come All!
ummm...you do know this forum does have guidelines and I am sure language does matter.
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2009-04-19, 03:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Actual Use For Vop! Come One Come All!
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2009-04-19, 03:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- GMT-8
Re: Actual Use For Vop! Come One Come All!
I don't have either source, but I think I see a stupid loophole. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Vow of Poverty requires you donate to a charity. Does it specify what the charity must do? It seems to me that you could donate to a Forsaker charity. In fact, you'd be such a kind-hearted, generous individual that you'd even donate your time... by helping them destroy magic items. Specifically, those magic items that you donate.
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2009-04-19, 03:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2009
Re: Actual Use For Vop! Come One Come All!
I have a level 21 Wizard. He doesn't use the BoED. He does however have over 5000 Solars as his eternal slaves, An AC with no buffs on him (except the instantaneous ones he cast a long time ago) of 500, Immunity to every element, immunity to mind affecting, death effects, ect, freedom of movement, and he can do 200d6 untyped unmitigatable damage as a RTA at will.
No, the BoED is not Haxxor.Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2009-04-19 at 05:35 PM.
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2009-04-19, 04:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Actual Use For Vop! Come One Come All!
{Scrubbed}
They don't know I have the vow or the strength of my aura of good due to the VoP's alignment sheilding (mind shielding, and the aura can be turned off at will), so I slip out of the cuffs due tot he freedom of movement ability, free my cohort, and we go out to search for our stuff.
So broken? No. By ECL 15, any good character should be able to get out of simple handcuffs, with or without equipment.
So I pull out the big guns. Heres were it gets dumb. I have the purify spell feat (BoED) and I used it for Bolt of Glory (Spell Compendium, Cleric 6th) and it does 15d12 on evil outsiders/undead/inhabitants of the negative energy plane, and with the purify spell feat, each d12 becomes 3d6 (1d8 becomes 2d6, etc. basically an increase in die type)
I deem this not broken. It's no better than using a Stake against a vampire, or something that drains dexterity against dragons. Is it extraordinarily effective in certain situations? Yes. Elsewhere? No.
Long story short, not just the VoP, but the whole BoED is the haxxorLast edited by Roland St. Jude; 2009-04-19 at 05:38 PM.
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2009-04-19, 04:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2008
Re: Actual Use For Vop! Come One Come All!
Furthermore, it should be pointed out that the Vow is terrible in Epic play. I mean, technically speaking, the benefits end at Level 20.
I agree that one of the few situations where VoP can actually be quite good (mechanically speaking) is when you're using a Totemist or Incarnate, just 'cause their chakra binds take up body slots. I can't really think of any other situation where it is particularly effective... I mean, it actually hurts classes like the Soulknife.
Of course, that doesn't mean that VoP is useless; I mean, we are talking about a roleplaying game. It was a bit of a mechanical failure, in that the high-level benefits didn't really match what one could get from magical items, but it was only ever intended as a roleplaying thing.
Personally, I would still like to play my Healer with Vows of Poverty, Nonviolence, and Peace someday, just for the roleplaying experience. (Okay, I know, I know, don't use the Healer; use a Cloistered Cleric instead. )
[edit]
{Scrubbed}Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2009-04-19 at 05:38 PM.
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2009-04-19, 04:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Actual Use For Vop! Come One Come All!
4) Two demonstrations that are mostly composed of abilities from other books, and both of which are not actually broken, do not justify this statement.
Of course, that doesn't mean that VoP is useless; I mean, we are talking about a roleplaying game.Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
—As You Like It, III:ii:328
Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics
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2009-04-19, 04:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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- 500 miles that a way!
Re: Actual Use For Vop! Come One Come All!
Personally, however, I've always favored the "invisible item" approach to a vow of poverty.
Example: You donate money to the local temple that just happens to equal the price of a Tome and a Decanter of Endless Water, and the gods just so happen to reward you with a stat increase and the ability to pray for water.The perfect fighter fix.
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