Gaming Etiquette - I don't have it, apparently.

[Neko Toast]

This is an event that happened in early March, and yet hasn't escaped my mind since. I hope that if I talk about it here, I might finally get this chip off of my shoulder.

I... have some issues with player etiquette. I don't usually have a problem with it. Every once in a while, I argue gaming rules, but we've all done that at least once in our gaming life. My problem mainly lies with off-topic chatting. I mean, as long as we get back to the game, I'm fine with it. I go off on tangents sometimes, too. But this was major derailing. I kept reminding people "BTTG", but it just seemed to be ignored after a while, so I got frustrated. When I get frustrated, I snap, I become rude, I just become a jerk. It's an issue I'm trying to tackle.

Well, the other players were beginning to get annoyed, one especially.

Eventually, it was my character to die first (it's WoD, so it's survival-horror). I already felt kinda bad because I've never had a character die before, and I wasn't allowed to make a second, because we had a lot of people lined up to play this campaign (none of these 'waiting list' people have joined after I died, though). There was another player who 'died', but his was voluntary. He was having problems in his life, and didn't have time to game anymore, so he had to withdraw.

Well, the day after this session I was still feeling bitter. I told the others through a thread on a different we were communicating through that I would be withdrawing from social occasions for a bit. It's usually best for me to do that when I'm upset. Well, the one player who was more fed-up than most sent me a private message the same day.

[name withdrawed] wrote:
There were too many people anyway. Your character was pretty much [character name]'s shadow. She had no personality, didn't contribute, and made light of serious problems. You were asking to die, not just verbally, but through harming the campaign environment. Not to mention you managed to make the entire environment miserable by bitching(not just at WoD either, you really make movie watching suck too). That was one of the reasons I left. You should probably work on growing up and learning to tolerate things you don't like. Not making everyone else miserable because you can't. The least you can do is have some dignity and face the fact that you were a good choice for someone to kill.

Note [GM] didn't ask me to leave, I chose to do that entirely on my own for a variety of reasons, including the fact your constant whining was incredibly frustrating and the fact the campaign just met too often.

This post hit home. Too hard. I still, to this day, cannot look at this message without tearing up. I feel like such an *** for doing these things.

I still haven't forgiven this person for what he said. Sure, I may talk to him and stuff, for the sake of not creating drama, but I have an inner hatred for him. He, and most of my friends, know that I'm the type who takes things way too seriously. And yet he went and said this to me. He claims that this is the only way he could break it to me, despite it emotionally crippling me.

I'm serious. Because of what he said, I have considered quitting gaming altogether. I understand his frustration with me, but he went ahead and insulted my character and my roleplaying. I admit that it wasn't my best character. Inspiration has to hit me, otherwise my characters are forced and aren't as great. But still... It makes me question everything I ever did in the past. Were my past characters just as bad? Am I really that big of a jerk all of the time?

I would really like your input on the matter.

[Roderick_BR]

Your "friend" possess the social skills of a llama.
Hey, if you left the game without complaining, without making drama, and not bothering anyone else, he have nothing to complain about. Sounds like he is upset on something else, and blew at you.
He went further than insulting your char and roleplaying, he insulted you directly. Feel free to give him the cold shoulder. I bet that if you ask anyone else, they won't say that you were disrupting the game (with all the off-topic chatter they were already doing).
About "shadow" characters, I can't say, since we'd need to be there to see, but I know how it is to play a game with too many players. Sometimes you just walk around, following the lead of 3-4 main characters, but that's normal.

[Raroy]

I believe one thing that has worked for me at least is too think over what I'm about to type. I think it over twice and try too see if it has any relevancy or any reason to be said. I limit myself to what I am willing to say. Sure, I type a lot less, but at least I won't embarrass myself. If I try hard enough I might be able to be more eloquent, which I have become.

[JeminiZero]

I bet that if you ask anyone else, they won't say that you were disrupting the game (with all the off-topic chatter they were already doing).

You may want to ask those who know you better whether they think what this guy says is true (and it not merely him being nasty). As the saying goes: If one man calls you a horse, he is crazy. If a second man calls you a horse, he is drunk. If a third man calls you a horse, you may want to think about buying some hay.

Beyond that, keep in mind that you game for fun. It doesn't matter if your character has the depth of the Monopoly Top-hat, so long as you and your group have fun playing together.

[Neko Toast]

You may want to ask those who know you better whether they think what this guy says is true (and it not merely him being nasty). As the saying goes: If one man calls you a horse, he is crazy. If a second man calls you a horse, he is drunk. If a third man calls you a horse, you may want to think about buying some hay.

Beyond that, keep in mind that you game for fun. It doesn't matter if your character has the depth of the Monopoly Top-hat, so long as you and your group have fun playing together.

See, that's the thing. He goes out of his way to insult my character, and yet we have a player (whom I'm not really fond with altogether. He's as dim as a wet match in a dark cave) who basically played himself, only 'better', and slightly altered his name.

And honestly, I knew myself after a while that I was being an ass to people. I guess this guy was the only one who was direct about it. Still, fear has a tendency to strangle me, so now I'm afraid of what everyone else thinks.

About a few weeks ago, a friend of mine brought up a friend from high school for a few days. We were hanging out at GM's apartment, as usual, and since the visitor and someone else in the group hadn't ever played D&D before, they decided to make a quick and silly campaign.

I actually turned down my invitation to play with them, because I was too afraid that I would slip up and end up being an ass to people. It was just a one-shot-meant-to-be-silly campaign, and I declined.

It's a little pathetic how fearful I am of gaming now.

[Oracle_Hunter]

To start with: no, you shouldn't quit gaming. And whether or not you made "bad" characters is irrelevant.

If there is a problem, it is something with your personality, not with any given activity. I would certainly take Angry Writer's letter with a dash of salt - anyone who writes in such a tone is in a highly agitated state and is not going to be thinking (or writing) clearly. However, the fact that you "felt" his point does suggest there was some truth to his allegations.

As cliche as it sounds - the first step is admitting you have a problem. Which you have. Now, it'll probably be good to try to figure out exactly what the problem is so that you can watch out for it in the future.

If you have friends you regularly game with, approach one of them to comment on your behavior. Mention that you worry about being a jerk and so forth, and you're trying to figure out what's going on. A good friend will likely be honest with you there, and give you some clear points to think about.

Barring that, you'll need to just put in a general "safety catch" to your behavior - before you do anything, pause for a second or two to think about it. On the internet, this is easy - read over any email before you post; if it doesn't say anything useful, or directly insults someone, change it. If you have a "snarky" or sarcastic personality, this will be hard to do (I know I still have trouble with it) but be overcautious all the same.

In person, it is harder. If you tend to blurt stuff out then you'll have to work on not doing so - I've found counting to 10 is a good way to do this. Whenever you get irritated that the game isn't moving on, count to 10 before saying anything - with luck, you'll have cooled down a bit. Next, on any rules argument, do not argue past an initial statement "but shouldn't it be this" and maybe a single rebuttal. When you start, never give rebuttals - wait until you feel confident about your self control.

Aside from that, recording events is a good way to raise your consciousness of it. Every time you argue a rule, make a note on your character sheet - if you have more than 1-3 of them a night (particularly if they are unjustified) you should cut back. Also note the number of times you get annoyed with pacing a night.

Finally, and this is most important, you may not have a problem at all. There is always a possibility that Angry Writer just flipped out and is refusing to apologize for some reason - if none of your fellow players (or DM) say they've noticed anything, then don't take it too hard. But do ask several people first.

Oh, and it's almost always a good idea to ask the DM about your behavior. If it has been disruptive to the game (and you consider the DM a pretty-OK guy) he may be able to note what was really bothering him, if anything. Plus, an act of contrition from a player is a good way to get yourself back "in" with a DM if - as you hinted - you have been placed "out."

EDIT:
Oh, and I think it's probably a bad idea to withdraw from social events, regardless of the circumstances. Isolating yourself from others can really mess with your head - and as I noted above, you're going to need other peoples' opinions to figure this thing out.

So, if that's your habit, you may want to work against it. Perhaps figure out a good friend to unwind with after such events and see if you can do some healthy venting and put things into perspective.

[JeminiZero]

See, that's the thing. He goes out of his way to insult my character, and yet we have a player (whom I'm not really fond with altogether. He's as dim as a wet match in a dark cave) who basically played himself, only 'better', and slightly altered his name.

Again, nothing wrong with playing yourself, provided everyone has fun.

It's a little pathetic how fearful I am of gaming now.

Well... maybe re-start slowly. Sit in on sessions and observe going ons, that way you can laugh at moronic character actions, without being too invested in anything.

Maybe join a PbP. And double check anything you write before posting it. That also has the upside of seperating OOC chatter from IC.

[Glyphic]

If you want to take a 'break' from gaming, but still game, the Play by post forums here and on Myth weavers are active and quite fun, with separate threads for IC and OOC. Gives you time to think, collect yourself and be froody.

Might even learn a thing or two to apply to your Real games, too!

[Pronounceable]

The "depth" of your characters is immaterial. I once played a Belkar, and nobody complained about the shallowness. The guy who plays himself is a common creature, and that isn't bad either. All that matters is the fun (yours first, then others').

If you really ruin the game for others, you deserve whatever flak you get and even getting booted in the middle of the session for especially bad behavior wouldn't be unacceptable. People may be too polite to say such, but all will think that. Fear of asking others' opinion (in case they agree) won't solve anything. If that's really the case, others are speaking about it behind your back already, so sooner or later you'll hear about it and it'll hurt more then. But if it's just this one guy who thinks you're ruining everything and others are all right with you, ignore him.

You gotta keep playing tho, if only to see how people react to you. If this sort of thing happens time and again, it means the guy's right. You either play nice, or you don't play. There's no excuse for ruining others' fun, deliberate or not.

[Neko Toast]

In person, it is harder. If you tend to blurt stuff out then you'll have to work on not doing so - I've found counting to 10 is a good way to do this. Whenever you get irritated that the game isn't moving on, count to 10 before saying anything - with luck, you'll have cooled down a bit.

Note the number of times you get annoyed with pacing a night.

It kind of depends with the group I'm playing with. This one got really bad, but my high school friends that I played with last summer were great. Maybe it's because I knew them more, maybe it's because all of us knew when we had to stop tangents and get back to playing (as I was not the only one uttering "BTTG"). I did have one incident where I was generally irritable, but that was due to other circumstances (*coughcrampscough*).

Oh, and it's almost always a good idea to ask the DM about your behavior. If it has been disruptive to the game (and you consider the DM a pretty-OK guy) he may be able to note what was really bothering him, if anything. Plus, an act of contrition from a player is a good way to get yourself back "in" with a DM if - as you hinted - you have been placed "out."

I tried talking it over with the DM, but when I did, he seemed to avoid the topic, like "I'm not touching that with a 10-foot pole" kinda thing. He said it's something that the players should work out. Well, the DM is a part of the game, too. I wanted his input more than anyone's, because he's in charge.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I tried talking it over with the DM, but when I did, he seemed to avoid the topic, like "I'm not touching that with a 10-foot pole" kinda thing. He said it's something that the players should work out. Well, the DM is a part of the game, too. I wanted his input more than anyone's, because he's in charge.

Wait, did you ask him if he had any problems with you? Do phrase it like this - "Hey, I know I've kind of been a jerk lately but I'd like to make amends. What is it that I do which really ticks you off?" It is possible that your DM is very conflict-avoiding, but if you phrase it like that, and he still acts really nervous then I guess you're not going to get a straight answer out of him. Too bad.

Oh, and it may be easier for him if you do this over email than in person. But you'll get more information in person. I could go either way.

Also, it is possible that the way this group plays just doesn't work for you. More likely, it's the case that you were just slow to adapting to how different groups play. In particular, not all groups appreciate anyone going "BTTG" - in the games that I play, either one player tries to provoke the DM to action ("Hey, I'm checking the door - what do I see?") and that brings people back, or someone might do a more subtle "so... gaming?"

All I'm saying is that different groups have different cultures; you might have just hit a culture clash.

[Neko Toast]

Wait, did you ask him if he had any problems with you? Do phrase it like this - "Hey, I know I've kind of been a jerk lately but I'd like to make amends. What is it that I do which really ticks you off?" It is possible that your DM is very conflict-avoiding, but if you phrase it like that, and he still acts really nervous then I guess you're not going to get a straight answer out of him. Too bad.

Oh, and it may be easier for him if you do this over email than in person. But you'll get more information in person. I could go either way.

Also, it is possible that the way this group plays just doesn't work for you. More likely, it's the case that you were just slow to adapting to how different groups play. In particular, not all groups appreciate anyone going "BTTG" - in the games that I play, either one player tries to provoke the DM to action ("Hey, I'm checking the door - what do I see?") and that brings people back, or someone might do a more subtle "so... gaming?"

All I'm saying is that different groups have different cultures; you might have just hit a culture clash.

Like I said, with my group at home, we all said it openly. I think the DM said it most. We all knew each other well, too.

And I tried to be subtle about it at first, but people just either kept talking, or would talk over me. Which really pisses me off.

I guess things just didn't work out with that set of people, but... I can't get what he said out of my head. Him and I used to be good friends, but after that... things just took a 180.

[Oracle_Hunter]

And I tried to be subtle about it at first, but people just either kept talking, or would talk over me. Which really pisses me off.

Yeah... that's classic culture clash. Them talking over you was a subtle sign that their culture kept side-chats going until they were over (or, likely, the DM intervened). It likely wasn't meant to be rude, if that makes it any better.

Anyhoo, if you cannot stand games which get distracted that long, then that group won't work out for you. If you can adjust, then you may want to try to reconcile (provided you liked the rest of them).

I guess things just didn't work out with that set of people, but... I can't get what he said out of my head. Him and I used to be good friends, but after that... things just took a 180.

Well now, you did mention that he was going through some difficult personal times - folks do lash out when they're under a lot of stress. Give it time, or, if you're feeling particularly empathetic, you can try to figure out what he's going through.

Chances are that he'll still push you away, but do try to keep available in case he decides he needs you.

[gibbo88]

I had a vaguely similar issue a while back where I was getting fed up with a couple of players mainly because they were derailing the game a bit. My main issue though was that I would get irate at one player because she hadn't read the rules even in the slightest and was learning them as we went along, whereas most people would learn at least the basic of the rules first and then fine tune them as you were gaming and asking questions of the more experienced players.

In the end I had to just ignore it or find something else to do, ie; open up one of the books on my laptop and have a read for a while, or look back at stuff that the group had done in the pass and think about how with x piece of equipment we might have handled the situation better.

I wouldn't go to the extreme step of stopping gaming altogether because of this. Its something you can work on and get better at, even if you just get to the stage where you can just bear the issues and fourth-wall breaking conversations.

Just my two cents.

[Oracle_Hunter]

In the end I had to just ignore it or find something else to do, ie; open up one of the books on my laptop and have a read for a while, or look back at stuff that the group had done in the pass and think about how with x piece of equipment we might have handled the situation better.

The one problem with this is that, if you are the only person irritated by the slowness, this sort of activity can come off as kind of anti-social.

That said, nothing is better cover than picking up a rulebook and flipping through it for a bit - it's how I finally mastered 3E's grappling rules

[Seatbelt]

I think the root of the problem is that when you get frustrated you get mean, right? I'm the same way. When you feel yourself frustrated, ask if you can just take a break. 10 or 15 minutes. That way people can chat all they want, you can chill for a bit, and then you all can get back to gaming feeling refreshed.

[Fan]

Your "friend" possess the social skills of a llama.
Hey, if you left the game without complaining, without making drama, and not bothering anyone else, he have nothing to complain about. Sounds like he is upset on something else, and blew at you.
He went further than insulting your char and roleplaying, he insulted you directly. Feel free to give him the cold shoulder. I bet that if you ask anyone else, they won't say that you were disrupting the game (with all the off-topic chatter they were already doing).
About "shadow" characters, I can't say, since we'd need to be there to see, but I know how it is to play a game with too many players. Sometimes you just walk around, following the lead of 3-4 main characters, but that's normal.

The bolded part: Don't insult the llama...Atreyu wold be offended.
Seondly...Draco, I've suffered similar problems with my own WoD group... It just seems that the people who have been there for awhile HATE new comers... seriously. I've suffered almost EXACTLY your same situation with a Werewolf the Forsaken, Changeling, and VTM groups... And I didn't even talk in VTM, I was playing a MUTE vampire, and people still said that I was being weird.
So, ignore these children, and get a better group... Thats all I can say.

[Talic]

Sounds like a focus issue.

When you gather to game, what are you doing?

Ideally, you're going to spend time with friends, and enjoy yourself. If everyone does that? You all win.

BTTG can be a useful tool for when socializing is detracting from important moments in the game...

But the end goal really, is socializing. Even if you're not rolling dice, if you're around a table with friends, food, and soda, and you're all smiling? Something good is happening.

Keep your focus on the fun. Even more than the game. Good things should happen. That applies outside of DnD too.

[Baalthazaq]

Poor thing.

I'd advise not getting overly worked up about it. I don't think anyone that writes something like that should be giving advice on social skills.

I didn't roleplay my first character at all because it was with a new group and I got kindof shy, so didn't speak. Then I didn't grow my character any for fear it would be too sharp a jump from his personality to date.

Very shallow.

Having said that, my characters improve as I got to know the group better.

[Zincorium]

I freely admit I have read only the OP and maybe two responses. That said:

Sensitivity- you are min/maxing it. I prefer to be blunt and clearly understood than sympathetic and have people take my advice the wrong way, so understand when I tell you that there is a significant middle ground between

A. Ignoring any and all criticism

and

B. Taking such criticism personally.

I am also letting you know that it I beleive you can get there, and that I'm suggesting it to try and help you have a better time with your friends and with them around a gaming table.

There does seem to be a bit of 'Blackleaf! Noooooo!' in your response to your character dying, but that's ameliorated by the fact that, in dying, you were also effectively kicked out of the group. Ordinarily, that would be a bad move by your group, unless the group really was too big.

Even then, the fact that no one apparently stood up for you when it came to that point does mean the rest of the group has an issue with you, and since you haven't been invited back when the group size decreased, it was not because of the guy who messaged you.

Different group is usually the best option, and go for a different system. Seriously, WoD is more of a hardcore game, stuff like D&D or GURPS is going to, by it's very nature, be more forgiving, casual, and lighthearted.

[Crazy Scot]

First, apologies for the long post, but I had a lot I wanted to say. So here goes...

Let me say that I think a lot of the previous posters have hit it pretty close to the target. It seems that there was a certain degree of culture clash with a bit of RP style differences. How to handle it is another issue all together, because as I see it, no one is at fault (especially not you). The big thing to remember is that everyone is different, and everyone games differently. Just because you like less derailing and more gaming does not mean that anyone in the group is "wrong". Differences are differences, and if they can't be overcome in a certain social situation, then removing yourself from the situation is one option, but by no means the only option. I would strongly advise you not to give up gaming, though, just because you had a bad experience with one session or one group.

As to the DM's response when you talked to him, several thoughts came to mind. First, he may be non-confrontational, which is supported by the fact that he tried to come up with an excuse to get you out of the group then never followed up on it. Second, he may be afraid of hurting your feelings. Third, he and the others are already talking about your actions behind your back and doesn't want what he says to you to come back to the others (which doesn't mean he necessarily agrees or disagrees with them). Whatever his reason, I would recommend trying to talk to him again, and this time try to approach it as "I know I didn't work out too well with the group last time, but what can I do differently to fit in better next time." If you come across as looking at ways to improve yourself as opposed to attacking him/the group, he may be more open to talking. I talk from personal experience here, though, that keeping things bottled up inside is never healthy, and tends to come back to hurt you more later. So try to talk to him. If his issue is 1 or 2 from above, using the above recommendation (looking for ways to improve yourself) will hopefully lower his resistances enough to allow open communication. If he still resists, it might fall into category 3 above (or some other reason not mentioned). And if they are talking about you, you only have to decide one thing: are they saying the truth or not? If they are, and you're happy with the way you are, then the problem is with them. If they are, and you're not happy, maybe try to find a way to change yourself to make yourself better, but let the final decision on how to improve fall on you, not just doing whatever they suggest. And if they aren't telling the truth, then what are you worried about? They are the ignorant people who are talking out of an orifice that isn't their mouth and shouldn't be paid attention to anyway.

Lastly, if you try to game with this group again, have a plan. If you get into a situation where they are derailing the game, try once (AND ONLY ONCE!!!) to get it back on course. If that doesn't work, there are several other options to try. First, counting to 10, as suggested by others, before making comments. Try to do something IC, tell the DM that you want your character to do something that he has to arbitrate. If the others don't catch on, then you get a bit of a solo adventure and let the others talk among themselves. If the DM is participating in the conversation and you can't distract him, try leaving the room. Go get a drink. Use the bathroom. Whatever you want, but get out of the room. Do this for a good 5 minutes or so. Then come strolling back in. If they are gaming again, make a comment like, "Oh, I see we're doing something again." If they ask why you left, just say that since they weren't gaming you didn't see a reason to stay there and listen to their (boring) conversation. If you come back and they are still talking, don't go in the room, just stand in the doorway watching. Shake your head at them, roll your eyes, whatever, and then when they do notice you / say something to you, use the above suggestions. Just remember, that when you are outnumbered (as it was suggested in your original post), trying to talk louder than the rest is useless. Talking to one while the others are still talking is equally useless. Wait until you have at least half the group's attention before saying anything. If only one person asks and the others are distracted, just continue shaking your head and say nothing. Tell them, "I'm here to game, guys, not here to talk about other stuff. When you guys decide to game again, then I'll decide to sit down and join you again."

For another option, if you have a cell-phone, call a friend or someone (plan ahead and let them know you might have to get off the phone quickly). Just start chatting about anything (school, plans for the weekend, whatever). Again, if someone corners you on it, fall back to the "When you guys decide to game again, then so will I. But in the mean time if you aren't gonna game, I'm gonna do other stuff rather than listen to your (useless) talking."

Doing any of these once or twice should get the message across to the others, and avoids you getting in an argument with them over trying to get the game back on track. Simply put, use your actions, both verbal and non-verbal, to show them that they are derailing the game and not serious about gaming, and that when they decide to play again, so will you.

[Learnedguy]

I'd think it sounds as if the guy who wrote that is the one with the issues, but I've never seen your group interact, so whatever.

But yeah, if you whine, then you might want to consider to stop whining. Because no one likes whiners, seriously.

[kjones]

This is exactly why I don't play WoD.

[Tukka]

But the end goal really, is socializing. Even if you're not rolling dice, if you're around a table with friends, food, and soda, and you're all smiling? Something good is happening.

Keep your focus on the fun. Even more than the game. Good things should happen. That applies outside of DnD too.

Well, I wouldn't say the "end goal" for me is socializing. The end goal is more like "having fun," but the chosen means to that end is gaming with a dash of socialization, and when those expectations aren't being met, then it's hard to enjoy the experience. World of Warcraft has a social component, but I didn't play World of Warcraft to socialize -- I chiefly played it for the gaming experience. More or less the same thing goes for D&D, but I'm looking for a different gaming experience (that is, with more focus on role-playing and problem-solving) -- having other players around (and a DM) is vital to making the experience interesting and fun, but mainly because they are helping to construct the environment in which my character(s) exists.

As others have pointed out, different groups have a different culture going on, and that is fine. I don't get to game very often, and when I do game, I take it pretty seriously and not just a pretext to gather together with other people I know. General socialization (which I can get my fill of pretty quickly through other outlets, being an introvert) can be nice, but doesn't have a lot of intrinsic appeal to me. If I did join a group that got together mainly just to hang out and chit-chat, I would probably remove myself from it pretty quickly if they didn't respond to my hints and suggestions that we focus more on the game -- though I'd try to do it without animosity.

If the DM is participating in the conversation and you can't distract him, try leaving the room. Go get a drink. Use the bathroom. Whatever you want, but get out of the room. Do this for a good 5 minutes or so. Then come strolling back in. If they are gaming again, make a comment like, "Oh, I see we're doing something again." If they ask why you left, just say that since they weren't gaming you didn't see a reason to stay there and listen to their (boring) conversation. If you come back and they are still talking, don't go in the room, just stand in the doorway watching. Shake your head at them, roll your eyes, whatever, and then when they do notice you / say something to you, use the above suggestions. Just remember, that when you are outnumbered (as it was suggested in your original post), trying to talk louder than the rest is useless. Talking to one while the others are still talking is equally useless. Wait until you have at least half the group's attention before saying anything. If only one person asks and the others are distracted, just continue shaking your head and say nothing. Tell them, "I'm here to game, guys, not here to talk about other stuff. When you guys decide to game again, then I'll decide to sit down and join you again."

I agreed with about everything you said up until this part. Leaving the room for a few minutes (if you announce that you're going to the bathroom, stepping outside for a cigarette, or whatever before leaving the table), leafing through sourcebooks, or pulling out your Nintendo DS or cell phone are, in my opinion, are all completely appropriate responses to a group that is having a conversation that you're not interested in, and has not responded to your polite suggestions to get back to the game.

Some might those actions passive-aggressive or anti-social, but that's not really fair if the group is ignoring you and the ostensible reason you've all gathered together. If they're having fun occupying themselves with an activity that does not involve gaming for extended periods of time, you should not get any flak for doing the same -- and you shouldn't have too much tolerance for people trying to give you grief over it, either.

However, I think you suggest going a little bit overboard with the snark. If you leave the group for five minutes and come back to see that they've returned to the game, I'd count myself lucky and would refrain from making any sort of comment that suggests disapproval of the fact that they went off on the tangent in the first place. Making such a comment might make them feel properly chastened, but there's a good chance it will just stir up bitterness and possibly re-derail the session when they move to defend themselves.

If someone challenges you on why you've decided to apparently remove yourself from the group, I'd try to respond in a calm but honest manner:

"Where'd you go?"
"I wanted to get some fresh air -- I told you guys where I was going, but I guess you guys were pretty into your conversation about [off-topic subject here]."

I wouldn't deride their conversation as "useless" or "uninteresting" or anything like that -- that's just going to alienate you. Everyone else obviously didn't think the conversation was useless or uninteresting, or else they wouldn't have been having it. Trying to retroactively throw a wet blanket on their good time (even if it was a little inconsiderate of them to indulge in something non-gaming-related for such a long period) is probably not a good idea.

On the other hand, if they continue to challenge you offer your neutral-but-honest explanation for leaving the table (or pulling out your cell phone, or whatever) then I think a remark like, "Look, I came here to game and don't really care about [whatever they were talking about]. You guys ignored me when I suggested we get back to the game, so rather than interrupt your conversation, I decided to do something else to occupy myself until you guys were done. I was trying to be patient, and I don't particularly enjoy you guys giving me a hard time over it."

If it's a once-in-a-while thing, this is no problem. If the group goes off-game often, I might bring it up after a session, or on the campaign's forum to see if anybody else feels the same way -- again, with carefully chosen, diplomatic language. If the group didn't show any interest in changing its ways, I'd leave it -- as amicably as possible. There's no point in giving people grief for enjoying socializing with a dash of gaming rather than the reverse -- but there's also no point in testing your patience every session with a group of people that don't share your style of play.

[snoopy13a]

First of all, friends should not send nasty PMs to each other. Perhaps I am a bit "old school" but if one has a problem with a friend, they should address in a face to face conversation and not through text. Plus, using commentary like "grow up" is rude and in this case seems a bit hypocritical.

Secondly, the tone was hostile when it didn't need to be. Here is an example of conveying the same message in a more reasonable tone:

Hey, do you mind talking about the other day as there are a couple of things that are bothering me that I'd like to bring up. One thing is that you're complaining about us getting sidetracked on occasion. I understand that you want to get back to the game but our little tangents give us some time to blow off steam and have a little fun. Would you mind just putting up with us until we get back on track?

I also hate to say it, but could you please stop the commentary when we watch movies. I like to concentrate on the dialogue and people talking during the movie takes away from my enjoyment (this is my educated guess over what the "movie" problem is).

Look, I'm just saying this because we're friends and I like hanging with you. I'm sure there's stuff that I do that bothers you and I'll be happy to make some changes.

I'd be cautious over the next couple of weeks. Try and find out whether or not this guy's feelings are pretty much his alone or more general among the group. Additionally, you'll need to think over whether or not these are people you want to continue to hang out with. Personally, I wouldn't want to hang out with the message sender.

[Dallas-Dakota]

Your "friend" possess the social skills of a llama.

Atreyu's social skills are waaay better.

[valadil]

However bad your gaming etiquette may be, Mr Name Withdrawn has it worse. He's pissed off and taking it out on you. Maybe you pissed him off, maybe not. Either way, he handled it badly by holding it inside and letting it out all at once at you.

If he'd pulled you aside and asked you in a friendly manner to complain less, you'd be in a happier place and he could have continued gaming with your group.

[Assassin89]

Atreyu's social skills are waaay better.

Not that llama. This type of llama.

It appears that receiving a PM is really impersonal, meaning that it is mainly an insult and is not a very good response.
My DM actually personally talks to members, and is willing to help the group.

[DeathQuaker]

Weee.... a complex situation. It's hard to comment fully not being more aware of other players and the GM's habits, but a few thoughts to add to the other posters (most of whom I generally agree with).

- While it sounds like you may have some frustration management issues--which you are aware of and are working on, so that's great and all you can do on that front--it also sounds like the gaming group has worse "etiquette" than you do. The constant OOC-ness and the communicating via PM versus talking to you in person are bad signs.

- It also sounds like you have different gaming needs and expectations than the other players'. It doesn't make you wrong and them right, nor vice versa. It doesn't mean you should stop gaming. It may well mean you should stop gaming with these people. There are friends of mine, gamer friends, who I refuse to be in a campaign with, because our play styles are just too different and we each know we'll drive each other crazy if we play together. We still care about each other and hang out and play board games and have fun together, we just don't do the RPG thing with each other. And by the same token, one of my gaming groups is a group of people I'm not very close to at all (I like them, I just don't know them as well as some of my other friends) but we get along great playstyle-wise and have a good time playing.

- Can I just say--I might be wrong, but reading between the lines, it sounds like your character was killed off on purpose so you could be written out of the game. Which means your GM is a complete, utter, and total jackass and an incompetent GM to boot. Using game mechanics to screw you over effectively in real life which is completely and entirely unfair and wrong. There are situations where a GM discovers a player doesn't suit his campaign or vice versa, but a mature and decent person is going to talk to you "in real life" about the situation and either find a way to make your character work in his campaign, or be honest and tactful in saying something along the lines of, "You know what, I don't think this campaign is working out for you, and there are other people that wanted to get into this game, so do you mind if you sit out on this one?" Not to mention, it is the GM's job to keep OOC conversation to a minimum which he wasn't doing, and if the GM was noticing some people were being annoyed by you, he should have taken it up with you--again, tactfully and just to work out miscommunication and find a way to mediate any potential problem between players. The fact that it sounds like he did none of this makes him a crappy GM and I would never want to be in one of his campaigns ever, ever again.

- To reiterate, I don't think the situation calls for quitting gaming, it just involves finding a new group to game with. Advertise at a local game store, or get involved in an online RP. You can still hang with your friends from this game, just accept that maybe RPGs aren't the best thing for you to be doing together.

- In the future, ask for and be open to feedback regarding your playing and play style. Especially work with your GM on this. If you're not getting any feedback, then you can't know if what you're doing might need improvement--or may help to find other playstyle incompatibilities early before conflict breaks out.

- For the record, people who usually get annoyed at OOC behavior in game are usually the GOOD roleplayers. Usually the people who keep tangenting into ridiculousness just want an excuse to hang out and consider gaming more an excuse to socialize than also have fun actually playing the game. So I wouldn't worry about how good a roleplayer you are--you're probably better than most of them, or at least more serious about improving your playing, which is a good thing (in moderation, of course).

[Neko Toast]

First of all, friends should not send nasty PMs to each other. Perhaps I am a bit "old school" but if one has a problem with a friend, they should address in a face to face conversation and not through text. Plus, using commentary like "grow up" is rude and in this case seems a bit hypocritical.

Secondly, the tone was hostile when it didn't need to be. Here is an example of conveying the same message in a more reasonable tone:



I'd be cautious over the next couple of weeks. Try and find out whether or not this guy's feelings are pretty much his alone or more general among the group. Additionally, you'll need to think over whether or not these are people you want to continue to hang out with. Personally, I wouldn't want to hang out with the message sender.

It's a little funny, because like the top of my first post said, this happened almost two months ago. The guy who sent the message had issues with his life, and not soon after this incident, he withdrew from socializing for a while. After a few weeks, he improved and slowly started hanging out with us again. I wouldn't talk to him, or even look at him, because I was upset with him. He would ask me why I was upset, but I ended up ignoring him. Keep in mind, I was kind of going through a bit of a depressive phase, so I was pretty quiet and submissive to begin with.

Later on, I confronted him about the issue again, when both of us were feeling a little better, and he still stood by what he said before, as he said that "it was the only way he could get it across to me." Not true. Soooo not true. He vaguely talked about it once during a group session. He didn't pull me aside and talk to me personally about it. He just sent me that message.

Like I said, I don't think I will ever forgive him for this, as it's affected me emotionally.

With that out of the way, it's time to talk about the rest of the group. I still hang out with all of them, and I'm friends with most of them (I'm still not fond of Mr. Wet-Match-Dark-Cave, though), and they're fond of me. Hell, one of them is going to be my roomie next year. I'm cool with them, including the GM. They probably did think the same things. Maybe they didn't want to hurt my feelings. I dunno.