[3.5] BBEG is Epic Sorceror!

[Bugbeartrap]

Yes, we are doomed. We are a level 12 party consisting of a VoP monk, a Animal Companion centered druid, a mageslayer feat line duskblade/abjurant champion, and (me) warlock/virtuoso/sublime chord. We have some time and leveling to do before we have our final showdown, but I'm trying to come up with a strategy to beat him. The DM isn't using epic spellcasting (thank goodness, or he could just craft the spell Kill my Enemies). Has anyone else ever taken on an epic spellcaster with no real casters in the party?

[woodenbandman]

You're dead bro.

My advice: it's a bit late now, but I'd have gone for an epic dispel check (on the level of +30, which is possible) followed by an epic smackdown. Failing that, you'll have to win initiative, grapple him, and all ready an action to beat on him when he looks like he's going for a spell.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Yes, we are doomed. We are a level 12 party consisting of a VoP monk, a Animal Companion centered druid, a mageslayer feat line duskblade/abjurant champion, and (me) warlock/virtuoso/sublime chord. We have some time and leveling to do before we have our final showdown, but I'm trying to come up with a strategy to beat him. The DM isn't using epic spellcasting (thank goodness, or he could just craft the spell Kill my Enemies). Has anyone else ever taken on an epic spellcaster with no real casters in the party?

If the final climatic fight is 4 on 1 have you or the druid counterspell (unless there is some way to bump up the DC of jarring song) while the other uses attack/debuff/control spell (like dimension anchor from a wand to prevent escape) and the monk and duskblade attack directly. Any feats/items that can let the monk and duskblade attack quickly are good.

But you can't build towards that since chances are the DM will change the final climatic fight to suit your party's abilities.

In the meantime, invest in some ways to protect yourselves from scrying whether that means individual magic items or hiring a friendly spellcaster to cast the spells.

[Superglucose]

Get antimagic fields. Scrolls of antimagic field, and ranks in UMD, start throwing them left and right.

[Doc Roc]

Eat your character sheet. Epic sorcerers are monstrously bad news.
Unless he's playing with you, you're probably dead beyond all reckoning and retconning.

[Flickerdart]

Grapple him and don't let go. Have the Bard throw down Silence. If you don't do these things, he casts Dimension Door or Fly and then kills you from above. That is not good.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You cast Antimagic Field, and the Monk and/or Animal Companion grapples it. Whoever's grappling him should even keep him pinned and stop him from speaking. Execution is key here, if you can start off the fight right it should all go smoothly.

If you don't have AMF then get a few scrolls of it, also get a scroll of MDJ to open the fight with since he's sure to have a lot of buffs. Also get a scroll of Moment of Prescience if you don't know it, have it cast ahead of time and use its bonus on your initiative. The Druid should cast Insect Plague first thing, with all the swarms right on top of him, hopefully this is after the MDJ and before anyone else acts. He can Wild Shape into a Dire Tortoise from Sandstorm to help his initiative, and just ready an action to cast that after the MDJ. Get the Duskblade a net for in case he's flying to bring him close enough for the others to grapple.

You should keep an action readied to cast AMF when they try to grapple, so it's up before the grapple occurs in case he tries to (contingent) teleport out of it. Once the animal companion or monk has him grappled and in the AMF the other should jump on the pile too so he has no chance of escape. His AC will probably be 10 for people outside the grapple, no Dex bonus and no magical buffs, so the Duskblade can power attack two-handed and full attack away. By then the fight should be won, just be sure you stay close enough to him to catch him in your AMF, and the party shouldn't group up too much because he's liable to Meteor Swarm first thing.

[SSGoW]

find another epic sorcerer/wizard and somehow get him to kill the BBEG that or try to join the BBEG as his/her underlings >.<;;;

[JeminiZero]

No Epic spellcasting makes your life a bit simpler.

What I sould try is:
1) Pick up Antimagic Field, Extraordinary Spell Aim and Polymorph/Shapechange
2) Apply Extraordinary Spell Aim to AMF to give yourself an AMF field but with yourself excluded
3) Shift into a form with improved Grapple and grapple the guy to death, while shutting down his magic with AMF.

You will likely need a whole lot of other buffs and other spells in order to survive long enough to actually get close and start grappling him.

[Starbuck_II]

Yes, we are doomed. We are a level 12 party consisting of a VoP monk, a Animal Companion centered druid, a mageslayer feat line duskblade/abjurant champion, and (me) warlock/virtuoso/sublime chord. We have some time and leveling to do before we have our final showdown, but I'm trying to come up with a strategy to beat him. The DM isn't using epic spellcasting (thank goodness, or he could just craft the spell Kill my Enemies). Has anyone else ever taken on an epic spellcaster with no real casters in the party?

Does your DM allow Mordaken's Disjunction?
If the spell isn't banned...not sure if any hope. Nothing non-epic blocks it. It destroys all magic items...even artifacts.

[quick_comment]

Hire a ton of NPC adepts, and have them all counterspell him.

[Lamech]

I would focus on readying to disrupt. Also use divination to determine what spells the dude has. You can first off prep for the guy and second lock down his spell selection. That way the DM can't plan for what you guys do build.

[Bugbeartrap]

2) Apply Extraordinary Spell Aim to AMF to give yourself an AMF field but with yourself excluded

I was under the impression that this tactic leaves me vulnerable to magic still... and if i grapple him, he'll be in my space

I'm thinking I can use the ability Spellblast from Eldritch Theurge to apply an AMF to him directly. For completeness, would VoP work in an AMF?

[Doc Roc]

There are... some options, despite my earlier fervent denial of it.
I need to know your full allowed book list.

Most of VoP is Su, which means AMF turns it off.

[Bugbeartrap]

Book list is pretty much everything printed by wizards and no dragon or dungeon. We've also come into a bit of gold recently, and its not out of character for me to delve as deeply into as many options for revenge as possible.

We have physically encountered him once. He was pre-buffed, I hit him with an empowered enervate and SR both slipped our minds. However the monk rolled a 1 on a save against prismatic spray and died to poison round one. The duskblade cast regroup, the druid sealed us away with Wall of Stone, and I was about to shadowalk us out when he Time Stopped us (rolled a one on the d4!) and let loose with summons. Luckily, I cast defensively and he didn't chase. Next time, he's not gonna forget SR...

[Douglas]

However the monk rolled a 1 on a save against prismatic spray and died to poison round one.

Unless this happened before level 11 or the monk has multiclassed, that was a mistaken ruling. Monks are get poison immunity at level 11.

[JeminiZero]

I was under the impression that this tactic leaves me vulnerable to magic still... and if i grapple him, he'll be in my space

Which is why I said you need other buffs to survive long enough to get close.

The wording of Extraordinary Spell Aim states that you shape the spell so that 1 (and only 1) target in an area is not affected, regardless of what space it occupies. So you can argue that even if that target (i.e. you) is grappling something else (i.e. the Sorc), the thing being grappled is not excluded.

Of course, Swallow Whole is another matter.

Edit: Or do what the guy duelling Elminster did. Get up close, drop a prismatic sphere around the both of you, and then quicken Antimagic Field (with extaordinary spell aim), so that he's not in your space, but he can't escape and still can't use magic. And then melee him to death.

[Yora]

To me this sounds very easy:

Don't get into a fight with him!

When the gm sets up an encounter with an EL of 9 and more above the party level, you're clearly not supposed to fight him.

[BRC]

Wait for the inevitable Deus Ex Machina.

[Bugbeartrap]

Well, we have taken a centaur cleric of ECL 8 above our level, but that took over 4 real life hours of planning. Basically 'ported in and crippled him before he could act.

We don't expect to take him down anytime soon, but we're going to have to eventually. Right now, it sucks because wherever he is, our army loses. No matter how well defended our position is. Right now, our best bet is: don't be where he is and press our advantage elsewhere.

[mcl01]

I think it's fairly possible depending on how optimized the sorcerer is.

1) UMD is your friend. You can take 10 as a warlock and you likely have a very good CHA modifier. If you can't cast some of these spells yet, then when you level a few times, pump up UMD and any synergystic skills. Disjunction, and anti-magic field. Expensive, but they very well might be your best friend. Silence will work wonders too unless this epic sorcerer has the silent spell feat (worth the gamble) for such an inexpensive scroll. Even if he does, he'll still need to use a full-round action to apply the metamagic, meaning he loses his move action. Yes, there's a saving throw, but there's an easy way around that: target a melee friend who'll stick around the sorcerer. He can voluntarily fail his save/lower his SR and be a silence-carrier, effectively shutting up any surrounding mages. Also, you could possibly find some cheap effective no-save scrolls.

2) Grapple. Your VoP monk friend is likely the best bet depending on his feat choices. If not, the animal companion or your druid friend Wildshaped into a grappling form. Or they can all pile on together! Force a harsh concentration check and/or pin if possible. Coup de grace!

3) Force fort saves if you can. Stunning fist that sucker. The druid's poison spell could be surprisingly effective here. If you don't mind going into melee, a sudden-stunning weapon could work wonders with your high charisma. Fort-save eldritch essences, possibly.

4) Get that duskblade in close. Mageslayer could be a lifesaver if he can't cast defensively. Energy Resistance could be helpful depending on the sorcerer's tactics too.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Well, we have taken a centaur cleric of ECL 8 above our level, but that took over 4 real life hours of planning. Basically 'ported in and crippled him before he could act.

We don't expect to take him down anytime soon, but we're going to have to eventually. Right now, it sucks because wherever he is, our army loses. No matter how well defended our position is. Right now, our best bet is: don't be where he is and press our advantage elsewhere.

Then it seems like your doing the right thing.

If you are 12th level and the sorcerer can stop Time Stop than even if he is non-epic it's not a winnable fight if the lich is not woefully underplayed by the DM (and it looks like he is underplaying it a little).

So running away when you encounter him, as someone suggested and as you did, is a viable option at this point.

Using AMF, as previously suggested, is good even if you can't shape it but then only the monk and animal companion will be effective against him...if they can get to him...and until he escapes the AMF...or until you escape the encounter. Without AMF, you have one of the casters try counterspelling with greater dispel magic while the others attack or coordinate the escape.

Another issue is figuring out where he is and not letting him get the drop on you...well that depends on the DM. But it may make sense in-game to have spells detect scrying or anticipate teleportation. Speak with the other players and the DM about what level of protection is appropriate. As for figuring out where he is, you can not only use spells (which are unlikely to be effective) but resources in-game likes spies, informants, allies.

[mcl01]

Well, AMF doesn't necessarily make the duskblade useless. He still has full BAB and likely more strength and con than the sorcerer :P

[Doc Roc]

There's a thing called The Breaching Obelisk. It can take you to any plane. There's no way in the game to prevent the breach from forming, and no way to block it from your plane. Worse, you pick where on the plane you breach, if you're guiding it, but it never specifies how specific you can be.

Surely you see where this goes?
's in planar handbook

[Bugbeartrap]

Unless this happened before level 11 or the monk has multiclassed, that was a mistaken ruling. Monks are get poison immunity at level 11.

yes, he dipped two levels of paladin.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

yes, he dipped two levels of paladin.

Wow. that means he now uses every stat but INT, did he get awesome rolls or what?

[Learnedguy]

Hmm, try figuring out more about him. Who is he, where was he born, what does he want to do, when does he sleep, WHAT SPELLS DOES HE KNOW?!?

Really, if I knew I was going to fight a powerful sorceror, that would be the first thing I tried to figure out. Try digging a bit into his character and maybe you'll find some records of what this guy is capable off. Search for survivors who might have first hand stories for instance.

Now, you probably won't be able to counter everything he does. But try to figure out what he'll do, and maybe you can counter his first three spells maybe? That already will give you a great edge for kick starting your own strategies.

[Quietus]

Hmm, try figuring out more about him. Who is he, where was he born, what does he want to do, when does he sleep, WHAT SPELLS DOES HE KNOW?!?

Really, if I knew I was going to fight a powerful sorceror, that would be the first thing I tried to figure out. Try digging a bit into his character and maybe you'll find some records of what this guy is capable off. Search for survivors who might have first hand stories for instance.

Now, you probably won't be able to counter everything he does. But try to figure out what he'll do, and maybe you can counter his first three spells maybe? That already will give you a great edge for kick starting your own strategies.

This.

Any time your enemy outguns you, your best bet is to know exactly what his guns ARE. What sort of caster is he? I saw a Time Stop + Summons setup, so he's got at least that. Is he strictly a summoning-type? Any Sorcerer will generally have a particular theme he circles around - summoning, direct damage, combat control, etc. If you know that his schtick is to time stop/summon, then cast direct damage from behind his meatshields, then you know you have less use for Death Ward/Freedom of Movement. Not to say they're useless, but they're less helpful in that case. A Sorcerer who prefers save-or-die and/or battlefield control, on the other hand, REQUIRES that everyone in your party have both DW and FoM up.

[graymachine]

Learnedguy and Quietus have the right of this; you need more information on him. It seems to me that, unless the DM is playing to play long enough for several more levels to be gained there is most likely a mcguffin that you need to find to deal with this sorcerer.

If the DM is planning on a straight fight, then we need more information to give more advice aside from the basics that have already been covered. Is he straight Sorcerer? Does he have PrCs? What and how many? Cohorts? Does he have any templates? What's his race? Is he totting around artifacts? Can you bardic knowledge an approximation of his Concentration check (high DC)? I've taken out a surprising number of casters due to DMs neglecting Concentration. Even if you can't get something like that, spam the bardic knowledge on him to get anything you can. While your at it, spam Divination on his past, his friends, etc. that won't set off his protections. These things simply take time and coin.

If nothing else, you could try to mock and shame him for being a sorcerer...

[Pharaoh's Fist]

If nothing else, you could try to mock and shame him for being a sorcerer...

Yes, because that worked out so well for Professor S