Racial HD counting towards ECL. What?!

[Gralamin]

Unfortunately, you have also gotten rid of customization on the DMs part regarding feats, as the "ogre" is now required to burn his feats in order to...be an ogre. Dont want to flame 4e, but customization is one of the big things holding most 3.x'ers back from switching.

With 3.5, Ogres usually come with power attack, but their is nothing stopping me from having my Ogre druid take natural spell or something else.. or switching my lizardmans multiattack feat out with, say, power attack and leap attack after I put him up a few class levels.

Burning a single a feat to be more of "an ogre" is to much? Seriously?

[Jergmo]

Fax has it here.

Thanks.

[Devils_Advocate]

Jergmo, D&D isn't a simulation. There are loads of things in it that don't make sense. It doesn't make sense that killing monsters helps you to learn new spells faster in the first place, so saying that the way that monster races modify this is nonsensical is a little silly. The way that hit points work is unrealistic. The rules for buying, selling, and crafting items are nonsensical, in that it's unclear what sort of economy could conceivably support them. And so on. Verisimilitude in D&D is achieved by not thinking about things too much, not through attention to detail.

All of the complexity of the system isn't there to create balance or realism; it's there to give geeks something to fiddle with endlessly, because we frankly like doing that.

[ericgrau]

Okay, am I the only one that sees something horribly wrong with this? These creatures already have a level adjustment, and on top of that, their racial hit dice counts towards their ECL. For example, a level 1 ogre barbarian would be CR 4, buts it would effectively be a level 7 character.

They have four giant hit dice, which is equal to +1 CR according to improving monsters. So to be fair, shouldn't their ECL actually be 4? That would fit with their challenge rating, and the ogre is no longer crippled.

Agree/disagree/RABBLE RABBLE?

Full level 7 character equipment and unusual things that ogres can do which PCs cannot. Like being large size all the time and having an unusually high strength to break stuff. Heck, in 2nd edition monster henchman controlled by PCs lost their darkvision purely for this reason & balance. No player races had darkvision in 2e, and it was a big deal to have access to darkvision in 2e. An enemy ogre barbarian is still CR 3 + class levels because he doesn't have all that gear and because his abilities to do things like break down dungeon walls & doors aren't much use in a fight against the PCs. i.e., ECL and CR are intentionally two different values b/c the power of an ogre in the fight against the PCs is completely different from the power of an ogre in the hands of a PC.

That's the reason and the whole reason. Both in terms of actual balance and IIRC the formal reason given by those who put the system together in the first place.

[Yuki Akuma]

What exactly is stopping an ogre from being a level 20 wizard? Sure, the best ogre wizard will have the same int score as a wizard with a natural 14... but so what? It's not like they won't get 9th level spells just like everybody else.

No he won't. He'll have 0th, 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th-level spells, and none higher. He'll have a lot of spell slots, but he won't be able to cast anything more powerful than a 4th-level spell.

Of course he'll be able to cast twenty-four 4th level spells...

[The Rose Dragon]

No player races had darkvision in 2e

Wait, wait, wait. Back up.

There was Darkvision in 2nd Edition?

[only1doug]

No he won't. He'll have 0th, 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th-level spells, and none higher. He'll have a lot of spell slots, but he won't be able to cast anything more powerful than a 4th-level spell.

Of course he'll be able to cast twenty-four 4th level spells...

no, he'll have a base Int of 14, modified by +1 every 4 levels and by items, resulting in him being capable of casting 9th level spells.

[ericgrau]

Wait, wait, wait. Back up.

There was Darkvision in 2nd Edition?

Technically there was only ultravision and infravision. Ultravision was essentially darkvision and infravision in total darkness was supposed to be similar to humans seeing via moonlight (poorly). Only monsters had ultravision IIRC.

[hamishspence]

Elves got infravision, way back. As did dwarves and, I think, halflings.

[Yuki Akuma]

no, he'll have a base Int of 14, modified by +1 every 4 levels and by items, resulting in him being capable of casting 9th level spells.

Hm. I see what you mean now.

You know honestly I think it would be more fun to play a level 20 Wizard with an Int of 14.

[ericgrau]

Elves got infravision, way back. As did dwarves and, I think, halflings.

Ya, see edited version of post. I had to read up on the matter myself.

[The Rose Dragon]

Technically there was only ultravision and infravision. Ultravision was essentially darkvision and infravision was similar but something else. Only monsters had ultravision IIRC.

I don't recall ultravision myself. Probably because most of my recollection is as a player.

[FatR]

Okay, am I the only one that sees something horribly wrong with this? These creatures already have a level adjustment, and on top of that, their racial hit dice counts towards their ECL. For example, a level 1 ogre barbarian would be CR 4, buts it would effectively be a level 7 character.

They have four giant hit dice, which is equal to +1 CR according to improving monsters. So to be fair, shouldn't their ECL actually be 4? That would fit with their challenge rating, and the ogre is no longer crippled.

Agree/disagree/RABBLE RABBLE?

Yes, I generally agree. ECL should be equal to CR +1, at most (+1 to compensate for extra stats and equipment). Racial HD + ECL in their current form are explicitly, blatantly meant to arbitrarily and horribly punish players who want to play monsters. You will be hard-pressed to find a character with ECL that is remotely playable - of the top of my head I remember just one race (half-ogre) and one template (Feral) that can be theoretically worth taking, although even they are not as good as levels in real classes. Because ECL is almost always too high and racial HDs are treated as equal to class levels, even though they are strictly worse in practically all cases (well, dragon or outsider HDs can be better than levels past level 2-6 in classes, that never were meant to be more than 2-6 levels long, like monk or fighter, but that's about all).

The only exception is puzzle monsters, like ghosts or even lycanthropes - those, frankly, cannot be measured by a static ECL, because at low levels their inherent abilities make them immune to vast majority of things that endanger normal PCs, and at high levels these abilities become increasingly useless (while their weaknesses might become totally crippling).

[Yuki Akuma]

ECL is higher than CR in most cases because PCs can get a heck of a lot of use out of most monster abilities that monsters will only have a chance to use once.

A pixie with levels in Rogue is far more effective as a PC (having four encounters per day in which to get his entirely free Sneak Attack) than as an encounter (where he'll be gibbed pretty quickly as soon as someone casts Glitterdust).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The problem is not that a given CR X monster ends up being an ECL 2X PC, the problem is that a single Level Y NPC is not a suitable challenge for a party of four Level Y PCs. Certain monsters are appropriately challenging for their CR, some monsters are very difficult given their CR, and some monsters are just a pushover for their CR.

Most PHB races with class levels are a pushover considering what their CR is, they may as well hold up a sign that says, "Free Gear" because that's all they're viewed as by experienced players. There are very few NPC builds who alone can pose a credible threat to a party of adventurers. Even then, nearly all of those are entirely dependent on setting up the encounter in their favor. For example, make a Human Fighter 4 with Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Weapon Focus/Specialization: Composite Longbow, Point-Blank Shot, and Rapid Shot. Give him four Potions of Protection from Arrows, if he only has one he may want to save it for another fight plus it's a bit rude to only give him one which he uses. He should be mounted on a light warhorse and encountered out in an open field, using a ride-and-shoot strategy to keep the PCs at the edge of his first range increment. He can deal quite a bit of damage over just a few rounds, and thanks to the potions and probably some decent armor the PCs probably wouldn't be able to do any damage to him at all short of Magic Missile. As an opponent encountered in his ideal environment that is a very strong build, but as a PC that character is extremely weak simply because he's seldom in his ideal environment.

Just like that character, most monsters are extremely powerful in one particular area. It is that one strength that they use to challenge the PCs, for example an Ogre uses its high strength and large size to make powerful melee attacks. The game designers reviewed the monsters they made that could be playable as PCs, decided what ECL they would be equivalent to if played to their strengths, and assigned them a level adjustment based on how many racial hit dice they already had. An Ogre may be an extremely weak spellcaster, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a much more powerful melee combatant than a standard PHB race. In order for a monster to be appropriately challenging for its CR, it needs to be able to do what it's best at or designed to do. Similarly, if a creature of that race is going to be a PC, it must be given an ECL based on the assumption that a PC of that race will use what that race is already good at and even improve on it. If you don't play to the race's strengths, of course you'll have a weak character, just like if the encounter doesn't play to its strengths the PCs will have an easy victory.

If the Fighter build above were encountered on a narrow mountain pass where he didn't have room to maneuver, it would be an extremely easy fight. Just the same, if an Ogre has a few levels of Wizard or Cleric and sits there casting 1st level spells instead of doing what he's naturally good at, he's going to be easy to defeat with little or no loss of resources. If you want the Ogre tribe to have witch doctors or holy/wise elders, use classes like Hexblade, Pious Templar, Blackguard, even Disciple of Thrym from Frostburn. Those classes still contribute to what they're naturally good at by providing a high BAB and HD, but still provide class abilities that fit the flavor of what role you want them to fill in their society.

[Starbuck_II]

Then shouldn't they give viable LA based on its strength?

Like an Ogre is LA +2 as a melee, but LA +0 as a caster.
I mean a caster is behind 4 HD (and mental penalty) already.

I'm surprised that wasn't done.

[Flickerdart]

Then shouldn't they give viable LA based on its strength?

Like an Ogre is LA +2 as a melee, but LA +0 as a caster.
I mean a caster is behind 4 HD (and mental penalty) already.

I'm surprised that wasn't done.

And what of half-casters? Gishes? Skill monkeys? Not everything is a beatstick or a caster.

[Myrmex]

Also, that ogre druid wouldn't have 8 int and 10 wis. It'd have whatever it got from rolling or elite array. So, if it had the elite array and put the 15 on wisdom, then it wouldn't have a problem. These creatures not having spellcasters of any kind defies any form of logic. Every intelligent creature has religion.

An ogre is CR 3. A 6th level ogre druid or cleric is CR 6. Giant HD + cleric levels = win.

[Doug Lampert]

I posted on this just recently, as it happens.

Yep, I've run monsters improved with a class level or two and elite abilities and gear as an NPC of their ECL and found they are STILL slightly overpowered treating them as CR==ECL.

Gear makes a HUGE difference, decent feat choices are worth another level or so.

The 3.5 claim that elite stats make a CR 9 monster into a CR 10 monster; and the elite array, two class levels (pick a non-associated class), sane feats, and gear as a CR10 NPC is ALSO a CR 10 creature is totally insane.

[Doug Lampert]

Yes, I generally agree. ECL should be equal to CR +1, at most (+1 to compensate for extra stats and equipment).

You GROSSLY undervalue the equipment and stats. (But then so does WotC).

Take a monster like a succubus or erinyes, assign elite abilities and decent feats, the save DC against its dominate just went up by +4 or more, it gained a fair number of HP and its saves and AC are both better. Then add gear. It's AC is +7 or more (mithral chain shirt + other items), and it's save DCs go up by yet ANOTHER 2 points to +6 over standard.

Melee builds do the same thing, +5 or so to attacks and damage, +5 or more to AC, +1 or 2 HP/HD, + to all saves.

DougL

[Starbuck_II]

You GROSSLY undervalue the equipment and stats. (But then so does WotC).

Take a monster like a succubus or erinyes, assign elite abilities and decent feats, the save DC against its dominate just went up by +4 or more, it gained a fair number of HP and its saves and AC are both better. Then add gear. It's AC is +7 or more (mithral chain shirt + other items), and it's save DCs go up by yet ANOTHER 2 points to +6 over standard.

Melee builds do the same thing, +5 or so to attacks and damage, +5 or more to AC, +1 or 2 HP/HD, + to all saves.

DougL

But even NPCs should be using at least 2/3 of their gear directly (rest should be consumerables like potions).

So gear is included irregardless, but PC ones would get more.

And what of half-casters? Gishes? Skill monkeys? Not everything is a beatstick or a caster.

1/2 caster and skill monkeys are LA +1 for Ogre (thus 1/2).

Remember Ogres aren't skill monkeys.

Pixies are skill monkeys so the max LA is for them (+4). Same for 1/2 casters.
Casters +3.
Melee +2.

So Fighter takes levels in wizard, now gets more LA (when they gain that level), they shouldn't have tried to bend the system.

Gishes use worst rating (otherwise it would be too strong).

[Devils_Advocate]

The 3.5 claim that elite stats make a CR 9 monster into a CR 10 monster; and the elite array, two class levels (pick a non-associated class), sane feats, and gear as a CR10 NPC is ALSO a CR 10 creature is totally insane.

I think that it only gets 2nd-level gear; e.g. a giant given 2 levels of Wizard gets the gear of a 2nd-level Wizard in addition to its normal treasure. I think.

But yeah, the CR increase from giving something the elite array should stack with, not overlap with, the CR increase from giving something class levels, since each of those changes improves the monster in a way that isn't redundant with the other. I don't know what they were thinking there.

[Animefunkmaster]

CR =/= ECL

And while that would be a nice concept (everything judged by the same standard), it just doesn't work that way.

A level 5 Monk is not an CR 5 encounter. A level 5 Codzilla is. Wizard might be, assuming he wins initiative.

[Myrmex]

I think that it only gets 2nd-level gear; e.g. a giant given 2 levels of Wizard gets the gear of a 2nd-level Wizard in addition to its normal treasure. I think.

That's how I do it. If the ogre has any rolled ogre treasure it could possibly use (magic spear, scrolls), then it does.

[Myrmex]

A level 5 Monk is not an CR 5 encounter.

Depends on the build. If you give it the right feats and skills, it definitely is. It can avoid most of the tricks Batman uses at level 5, thanks to its high saves and ranks in balance & escape artist. As long as it chooses to fight on difficult terrain (which anything with a good move speed should), it can stay out of range and chug a few potions.

A level 5 Codzilla is.

Not... really. It depends a lot on domains (ie, do they have undeath and planning). At level 5, they will have MAYBE two spells persisted, and they won't be that great of spells. They'll get creamed by the party's melee. If you give the cleric some time to buff before hand, then it'll be about as dangerous as a 5th level fighter (minus any battlefield control or power attack). Which is to say, it is a CR5 encounter.

Wizard might be, assuming he wins initiative.

Wizards are scary dangerous. It depends on circumstances, of course, but usually a wizard is CR 1 or 2 higher than his caster level. If you have every battle take place arena style, on a featureless plain, where everyone just rolls for initiative and are no more than 60 feet away from each other, then a wizard is only dangerous, as you said, if it wins initiative.

However, if the wizard is aware of the party for any reason before initiative is rolled, then the wizard is much MUCH more dangerous, since he can put up fly and invisibility, then jump the party when the situation is at his advantage, or use illusions to distract or separate the party.

[HamHam]

The ECL system is pretty messed up. I think that as a DM, the best thing to do is just forget about it and go back to the basics:

If the monster character has X levels in a class, compare that to a human (or other LA +0 race) character with Y levels in that class. The point where the two are as equal in power as possible is the ECL.

[Doug Lampert]

I think that it only gets 2nd-level gear; e.g. a giant given 2 levels of Wizard gets the gear of a 2nd-level Wizard in addition to its normal treasure. I think.

Read the description of how to make random NPC adventurers in the DMG and look at the class level adjustment for monster races. CR 8 races take a -8 to class level, but explicitely DO GET full NPC gear as an NPC of their CR.

Done your way it's only grossly unballanced rather than totally insanely unballanced, unfortunately we know that for many races that's not how it works, and have no indication that that is how it works for anyone.

If you add two levels of wizard to a CR 10 giant it gets elite abilities, and level 11 NPC gear all for that +1 CR.

Someone else mentioned ogres. Sorry, IIRC ogres are on that table, there's specific rules support in core that says they get full gear based on CR, not on class level.

[SoD]

An ogre is CR 3. A 6th level ogre druid or cleric is CR 6. Giant HD + cleric levels = win.

How? Given that Clerics and Druids are, typically, melee casters with their spells based off wisdom only, and Ogres are melee brutes, with no penalty to wisdom...I'd call Cleric and Druid associated classes. If it was bard, or Favoured Soul, or something not entirely melee+wisdom based, then yeah; unasociated.

[AslanCross]

In D&D, it's difficult to see a religious leader not being a divine spellcaster.

In some settings, notably Eberron, only really high level religious authorities in major religions are clerics, and they are typically former adventurers. Your local Brother Bob would be an Expert with ranks in Knowledge (Religion), Heal, and other skills related to his profession.

As for ogres, I'd only make truly exceptional individuals actually have cleric levels, and they'd probably not even be actual ogres. There are more suitable races such as the skullcrusher ogre (MM3, no Int or Wis penalty, more RHD, but with a number of bonus feats), or even the ogre mage.

Ogres really are just shafted into being dumb muscle, unfortunately, but I don't see anything particularly troubling about it.

So gear is included irregardless, but PC ones would get more.

Grammar nitpick: "Irregardless" is incorrect and redundant. "Regardless" will suffice. Sorry.

[Starbuck_II]

I said irregardless on purpose.