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2009-06-29, 03:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
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2009-06-29, 03:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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- Missouri
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SpoilerDM: "Sunder the wall?! WT**** kind of tactics are these!?"
Me: The kind that armies have been using for millennia.
DM: They didn't do it with swords!
Me: Which makes us so much cooler.
Player: Where are the babau in relation to everyone else?
Me: They're right behind you. Vesil is covered in Loki's blood. That is their location in relation to you.
Player: I was just wondering about a fireball.
My Homebrew
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2009-06-29, 03:42 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2005
Re: Racial HD counting towards ECL. What?!
Jergmo, D&D isn't a simulation. There are loads of things in it that don't make sense. It doesn't make sense that killing monsters helps you to learn new spells faster in the first place, so saying that the way that monster races modify this is nonsensical is a little silly. The way that hit points work is unrealistic. The rules for buying, selling, and crafting items are nonsensical, in that it's unclear what sort of economy could conceivably support them. And so on. Verisimilitude in D&D is achieved by not thinking about things too much, not through attention to detail.
All of the complexity of the system isn't there to create balance or realism; it's there to give geeks something to fiddle with endlessly, because we frankly like doing that.
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2009-06-29, 03:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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Re: Racial HD counting towards ECL. What?!
Full level 7 character equipment and unusual things that ogres can do which PCs cannot. Like being large size all the time and having an unusually high strength to break stuff. Heck, in 2nd edition monster henchman controlled by PCs lost their darkvision purely for this reason & balance. No player races had darkvision in 2e, and it was a big deal to have access to darkvision in 2e. An enemy ogre barbarian is still CR 3 + class levels because he doesn't have all that gear and because his abilities to do things like break down dungeon walls & doors aren't much use in a fight against the PCs. i.e., ECL and CR are intentionally two different values b/c the power of an ogre in the fight against the PCs is completely different from the power of an ogre in the hands of a PC.
That's the reason and the whole reason. Both in terms of actual balance and IIRC the formal reason given by those who put the system together in the first place.Last edited by ericgrau; 2009-06-29 at 03:55 PM.
So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
My 3.5e Rules Cheat Sheets: Normal, With Consolidated Skill System
TOGC's 3.5e Spell/etc Cards: rpgnow / drivethru rpg
Utilities: Magic Item Shop Generator (Req. MS Excel), Balanced Low Magic Item System
Printable Cardstock Dungeon Tiles and other terrain stuff (100 MB)
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2009-06-29, 03:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2004
- Location
- The Land of Angles
Re: Racial HD counting towards ECL. What?!
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2009-06-29, 03:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
Re: Racial HD counting towards ECL. What?!
I use black for sarcasm.
Call me Rose, or The Rose Dragon. Rose Dragon is someone else entirely.
If you need me for something, please PM me about it. I am having difficulty keeping track of all my obligations.
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2009-06-29, 03:55 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
- Location
- London, England
Re: Racial HD counting towards ECL. What?!
Doug
Currently GMing :
Moonshae Mysteries IC / OOC / Central Map / west rooms map / east rooms map
Moonshae Tales IC / OOC / Map
Map of Area
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2009-06-29, 03:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
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Re: Racial HD counting towards ECL. What?!
Last edited by ericgrau; 2009-06-29 at 04:02 PM.
So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
My 3.5e Rules Cheat Sheets: Normal, With Consolidated Skill System
TOGC's 3.5e Spell/etc Cards: rpgnow / drivethru rpg
Utilities: Magic Item Shop Generator (Req. MS Excel), Balanced Low Magic Item System
Printable Cardstock Dungeon Tiles and other terrain stuff (100 MB)
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2009-06-29, 03:57 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: Racial HD counting towards ECL. What?!
Elves got infravision, way back. As did dwarves and, I think, halflings.
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2009-06-29, 03:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2004
- Location
- The Land of Angles
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2009-06-29, 03:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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Re: Racial HD counting towards ECL. What?!
Last edited by ericgrau; 2009-06-29 at 03:59 PM.
So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
My 3.5e Rules Cheat Sheets: Normal, With Consolidated Skill System
TOGC's 3.5e Spell/etc Cards: rpgnow / drivethru rpg
Utilities: Magic Item Shop Generator (Req. MS Excel), Balanced Low Magic Item System
Printable Cardstock Dungeon Tiles and other terrain stuff (100 MB)
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2009-06-29, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
Re: Racial HD counting towards ECL. What?!
I use black for sarcasm.
Call me Rose, or The Rose Dragon. Rose Dragon is someone else entirely.
If you need me for something, please PM me about it. I am having difficulty keeping track of all my obligations.
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2009-06-30, 05:31 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2008
Re: Racial HD counting towards ECL. What?!
Yes, I generally agree. ECL should be equal to CR +1, at most (+1 to compensate for extra stats and equipment). Racial HD + ECL in their current form are explicitly, blatantly meant to arbitrarily and horribly punish players who want to play monsters. You will be hard-pressed to find a character with ECL that is remotely playable - of the top of my head I remember just one race (half-ogre) and one template (Feral) that can be theoretically worth taking, although even they are not as good as levels in real classes. Because ECL is almost always too high and racial HDs are treated as equal to class levels, even though they are strictly worse in practically all cases (well, dragon or outsider HDs can be better than levels past level 2-6 in classes, that never were meant to be more than 2-6 levels long, like monk or fighter, but that's about all).
The only exception is puzzle monsters, like ghosts or even lycanthropes - those, frankly, cannot be measured by a static ECL, because at low levels their inherent abilities make them immune to vast majority of things that endanger normal PCs, and at high levels these abilities become increasingly useless (while their weaknesses might become totally crippling).Last edited by FatR; 2009-06-30 at 05:36 AM.
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2009-06-30, 05:59 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2004
- Location
- The Land of Angles
Re: Racial HD counting towards ECL. What?!
ECL is higher than CR in most cases because PCs can get a heck of a lot of use out of most monster abilities that monsters will only have a chance to use once.
A pixie with levels in Rogue is far more effective as a PC (having four encounters per day in which to get his entirely free Sneak Attack) than as an encounter (where he'll be gibbed pretty quickly as soon as someone casts Glitterdust).
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2009-06-30, 06:47 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2004
Re: Racial HD counting towards ECL. What?!
The problem is not that a given CR X monster ends up being an ECL 2X PC, the problem is that a single Level Y NPC is not a suitable challenge for a party of four Level Y PCs. Certain monsters are appropriately challenging for their CR, some monsters are very difficult given their CR, and some monsters are just a pushover for their CR.
Most PHB races with class levels are a pushover considering what their CR is, they may as well hold up a sign that says, "Free Gear" because that's all they're viewed as by experienced players. There are very few NPC builds who alone can pose a credible threat to a party of adventurers. Even then, nearly all of those are entirely dependent on setting up the encounter in their favor. For example, make a Human Fighter 4 with Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Weapon Focus/Specialization: Composite Longbow, Point-Blank Shot, and Rapid Shot. Give him four Potions of Protection from Arrows, if he only has one he may want to save it for another fight plus it's a bit rude to only give him one which he uses. He should be mounted on a light warhorse and encountered out in an open field, using a ride-and-shoot strategy to keep the PCs at the edge of his first range increment. He can deal quite a bit of damage over just a few rounds, and thanks to the potions and probably some decent armor the PCs probably wouldn't be able to do any damage to him at all short of Magic Missile. As an opponent encountered in his ideal environment that is a very strong build, but as a PC that character is extremely weak simply because he's seldom in his ideal environment.
Just like that character, most monsters are extremely powerful in one particular area. It is that one strength that they use to challenge the PCs, for example an Ogre uses its high strength and large size to make powerful melee attacks. The game designers reviewed the monsters they made that could be playable as PCs, decided what ECL they would be equivalent to if played to their strengths, and assigned them a level adjustment based on how many racial hit dice they already had. An Ogre may be an extremely weak spellcaster, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a much more powerful melee combatant than a standard PHB race. In order for a monster to be appropriately challenging for its CR, it needs to be able to do what it's best at or designed to do. Similarly, if a creature of that race is going to be a PC, it must be given an ECL based on the assumption that a PC of that race will use what that race is already good at and even improve on it. If you don't play to the race's strengths, of course you'll have a weak character, just like if the encounter doesn't play to its strengths the PCs will have an easy victory.
If the Fighter build above were encountered on a narrow mountain pass where he didn't have room to maneuver, it would be an extremely easy fight. Just the same, if an Ogre has a few levels of Wizard or Cleric and sits there casting 1st level spells instead of doing what he's naturally good at, he's going to be easy to defeat with little or no loss of resources. If you want the Ogre tribe to have witch doctors or holy/wise elders, use classes like Hexblade, Pious Templar, Blackguard, even Disciple of Thrym from Frostburn. Those classes still contribute to what they're naturally good at by providing a high BAB and HD, but still provide class abilities that fit the flavor of what role you want them to fill in their society.
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2009-06-30, 08:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2004
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- Enterprise, Alabama
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Re: Racial HD counting towards ECL. What?!
Then shouldn't they give viable LA based on its strength?
Like an Ogre is LA +2 as a melee, but LA +0 as a caster.
I mean a caster is behind 4 HD (and mental penalty) already.
I'm surprised that wasn't done.
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2009-06-30, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2008
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- NYC
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2009-06-30, 11:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
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2009-06-30, 11:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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- Meridianville AL
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Re: Racial HD counting towards ECL. What?!
Yep, I've run monsters improved with a class level or two and elite abilities and gear as an NPC of their ECL and found they are STILL slightly overpowered treating them as CR==ECL.
Gear makes a HUGE difference, decent feat choices are worth another level or so.
The 3.5 claim that elite stats make a CR 9 monster into a CR 10 monster; and the elite array, two class levels (pick a non-associated class), sane feats, and gear as a CR10 NPC is ALSO a CR 10 creature is totally insane.
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2009-06-30, 11:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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- Meridianville AL
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Re: Racial HD counting towards ECL. What?!
You GROSSLY undervalue the equipment and stats. (But then so does WotC).
Take a monster like a succubus or erinyes, assign elite abilities and decent feats, the save DC against its dominate just went up by +4 or more, it gained a fair number of HP and its saves and AC are both better. Then add gear. It's AC is +7 or more (mithral chain shirt + other items), and it's save DCs go up by yet ANOTHER 2 points to +6 over standard.
Melee builds do the same thing, +5 or so to attacks and damage, +5 or more to AC, +1 or 2 HP/HD, + to all saves.
DougL
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2009-06-30, 12:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2004
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- Enterprise, Alabama
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Re: Racial HD counting towards ECL. What?!
But even NPCs should be using at least 2/3 of their gear directly (rest should be consumerables like potions).
So gear is included irregardless, but PC ones would get more.
And what of half-casters? Gishes? Skill monkeys? Not everything is a beatstick or a caster.
Remember Ogres aren't skill monkeys.
Pixies are skill monkeys so the max LA is for them (+4). Same for 1/2 casters.
Casters +3.
Melee +2.
So Fighter takes levels in wizard, now gets more LA (when they gain that level), they shouldn't have tried to bend the system.
Gishes use worst rating (otherwise it would be too strong).Last edited by Starbuck_II; 2009-06-30 at 12:13 PM.
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2009-06-30, 04:55 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2005
Re: Racial HD counting towards ECL. What?!
I think that it only gets 2nd-level gear; e.g. a giant given 2 levels of Wizard gets the gear of a 2nd-level Wizard in addition to its normal treasure. I think.
But yeah, the CR increase from giving something the elite array should stack with, not overlap with, the CR increase from giving something class levels, since each of those changes improves the monster in a way that isn't redundant with the other. I don't know what they were thinking there.
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2009-06-30, 05:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
Re: Racial HD counting towards ECL. What?!
CR =/= ECL
And while that would be a nice concept (everything judged by the same standard), it just doesn't work that way.
A level 5 Monk is not an CR 5 encounter. A level 5 Codzilla is. Wizard might be, assuming he wins initiative.
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2009-07-01, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2009
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2009-07-01, 11:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2009
Re: Racial HD counting towards ECL. What?!
Depends on the build. If you give it the right feats and skills, it definitely is. It can avoid most of the tricks Batman uses at level 5, thanks to its high saves and ranks in balance & escape artist. As long as it chooses to fight on difficult terrain (which anything with a good move speed should), it can stay out of range and chug a few potions.
A level 5 Codzilla is.
Wizard might be, assuming he wins initiative.
However, if the wizard is aware of the party for any reason before initiative is rolled, then the wizard is much MUCH more dangerous, since he can put up fly and invisibility, then jump the party when the situation is at his advantage, or use illusions to distract or separate the party.
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2009-07-01, 12:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: Racial HD counting towards ECL. What?!
The ECL system is pretty messed up. I think that as a DM, the best thing to do is just forget about it and go back to the basics:
If the monster character has X levels in a class, compare that to a human (or other LA +0 race) character with Y levels in that class. The point where the two are as equal in power as possible is the ECL.
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2009-07-07, 04:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2006
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- Meridianville AL
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Re: Racial HD counting towards ECL. What?!
Read the description of how to make random NPC adventurers in the DMG and look at the class level adjustment for monster races. CR 8 races take a -8 to class level, but explicitely DO GET full NPC gear as an NPC of their CR.
Done your way it's only grossly unballanced rather than totally insanely unballanced, unfortunately we know that for many races that's not how it works, and have no indication that that is how it works for anyone.
If you add two levels of wizard to a CR 10 giant it gets elite abilities, and level 11 NPC gear all for that +1 CR.
Someone else mentioned ogres. Sorry, IIRC ogres are on that table, there's specific rules support in core that says they get full gear based on CR, not on class level.
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2009-07-07, 07:44 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
Re: Racial HD counting towards ECL. What?!
How? Given that Clerics and Druids are, typically, melee casters with their spells based off wisdom only, and Ogres are melee brutes, with no penalty to wisdom...I'd call Cleric and Druid associated classes. If it was bard, or Favoured Soul, or something not entirely melee+wisdom based, then yeah; unasociated.
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2009-07-07, 08:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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- Metro Manila, Philippines
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Re: Racial HD counting towards ECL. What?!
In some settings, notably Eberron, only really high level religious authorities in major religions are clerics, and they are typically former adventurers. Your local Brother Bob would be an Expert with ranks in Knowledge (Religion), Heal, and other skills related to his profession.
As for ogres, I'd only make truly exceptional individuals actually have cleric levels, and they'd probably not even be actual ogres. There are more suitable races such as the skullcrusher ogre (MM3, no Int or Wis penalty, more RHD, but with a number of bonus feats), or even the ogre mage.
Ogres really are just shafted into being dumb muscle, unfortunately, but I don't see anything particularly troubling about it.
Grammar nitpick: "Irregardless" is incorrect and redundant. "Regardless" will suffice. Sorry.Last edited by AslanCross; 2009-07-07 at 08:17 PM.
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2009-07-07, 08:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2004
- Location
- Enterprise, Alabama
- Gender
Re: Racial HD counting towards ECL. What?!
I said irregardless on purpose.