Paranoid Casters Guide to Safe Astral Projection

[JeminiZero]

Edit 1: Corrected spelling, added "Concealing Astral Projection" and other stuff.
Edit 2: Added suggestions to discount Astral Projection and details on Secret Chest use.
Edit 3: Added sections for more caster types.
Edit 4: Added Lichdom, note on Wish, and use of Deathwatch.
Edit 5: Added Notes on Defenses, Spell Stitching, Dweomerkeeper, Ring of Free Magic and Breaching Obelisk.
Edit 6: Added Psychoportation and note on Coterminous planes

Lets say we have a caster who is extremely paranoid about getting offed. So they set out to create their own demiplane within which they are safe and sound, and from which they can astral project out. In the event they are killed normally, they wake up on their own demiplanes. And they want to be able to do this indefinitely. (For now we leave out time trait abuse).

Additionally, in the event their silver chord is somehow severed (which can be done by Psychic Winds, Astral Dreadnoughts, and Githyanki Silver Blades) they want to have a *back up* which will bring them back to life (without relying on back-stabbing party members).

How would you go about carrying out something like this? I thought of the following:


Setting up the Plane:
The plane should obviously be created by Genesis. Genesis must be cast on the Ethereal plane. And to prevent other Astral Travellers from getting is, you need to find a spot on the Ethereal plane that is not Coterminous with the Astral Plane.

It should have limited magic trait, barring the following schools and psionic disciplines (this bit is shamelessly copied from Eldariel). Note that unlike mere Dimension Lock spells, limited magic is effectively completely dead to spells of this school, even from Epic spells and Deific magic.

Universal Magic: Originally, this was intended to bar the transport function of Wish. However Wish is very strongly worded ("regardless of local conditions") so it is uncertain if limited magic against Universal spells can stop it.

Divination School/Clairsentience Discipline: Mainly, so that no one can spy on your plane. But it also might bar the the travel function of Revise Reality (but see the notes on Wish above). Unfortunately, it also blocks Psionic Contingency.

Illusion School: So that no one can use Shadow Walk to get in. This also prevents Simulacrum from being cast on the plane itself, but you can create your Simulacra off-plane and then transport them in.

Conjuration School/Metacreativity Discipline: Except for the healing subschool. So that no one can use gate or plane shift to get in.

Psychoportation Discipline: To block the equivalent Psionic version of Plane Shift.

Evocation School/Psychokinesis Discipline: To block Miracle which might otherwise let someone try and use that spell to copy the transport function of Wish as above. This has an unfortunate side effect of blocking Contingency though (but not Crafted Contingent spells)

If you are feeling particularly abusive, you can get the ground of your plane to be made up of Jacinth (for Astral Projection) or Diamonds (for Raise Dead/ True Resurrection). Note that due to this setup, you cannot recast Genesis on the plane since Conjuration (creation) is blocked. Hence you cannot expand the plane once it is established. And we cannot allow Conjuration (creation) as that subschool includes Gate.

Are there any other traits the plane should have? Any other schools of magic that should be allowed or barred to ensure safety? Any way to block Ring of Free Magic and Breaching Obelisks?


Holes in the Plan:
The strategy above isn't entirely foolproof.

Wish/Reality Revision: The transport function of these two spells/powers is VERY strongly worded, so much so that it can be intepreted to overcome limited magic

Ring of Free Magic: (Planar Handbook pg 80) This 45k ring has 50 charges, and by expending a charges equal to spell level, you can cast regardless of the Limited Magic Trait. (You can therefore also use it to recast Genesis, or to protect against Free Magic Scrying by casting Permanent Private Sanctum.)

Breaching Obelisk: This is a demiplane in and of itself that randomly opens breaches to other planes. However, someone who succeeds a DC 40 Knowledge-The Planes check can use it to open a door to a specific plane.

Planar Bubble: A level 7 Cleric/Wiz/Sorc spell, this creates a bubble that emulates the casters home plane for 10 minutes per level. Its full effects are not specified so it is uncertain how big a problem this will be. For example, does the bubble let the caster use limited magic? Does this ability to use limited magic extend beyond the bubble? (If not, it means he can use personal buffs, but not hurl spells at enemies.) Does this ability to use limited magic extend to other planes he is trying to enter?


Defending the Demiplane
In view of the possibility that someone someday might actually find you, it is worthwhile investing in some defenses.

Traps: Always useful.

Undead Dragons: Draconomicon has special templates for Zombie and Skeletal Dragons. Unlike their conventional brethren, they retain a lot of their Dragon abilities, and can exceed 20 HD to boot. They are also reasonably cheap to animate (25 GP of black onyx per HD) and utterly loyal.

Simulacra: By the time you can cast Genesis, you should also be able to make the Simulcra of epic monsters. This is considerably expensive XP wise, but could get you powerful Guardians that can really slow your enemy down. Some Epic Monsters come with spellcasting, and Simulacra of these can be used as your utility Cleric and Wizards. Solars for example come with 20 levels of Cleric casting, Worm that Walks comes with Wizardry, and Ha-Naga's have sorcery. Otherwise, just try your best to ensure that your Simulacra can somehow defend themselves.

Rary's Interplanar telepathic bond: A Sorc/Wiz level 6. A Simulacrum with Ring of Free Magic (since its divination) could cast it on your body in suspended animation, to inform your Astral Projection that you are under attack, so that you can return to defend yourself.


Supplies
In the setup above, one problem is that while noone can get in, you would also have trouble getting supplies in. The main issue here is how to get new shiny gear to your physical body whenever you get upgrade. Any way around this?

A secondary issue is that each time you recast Astral Projection, you need 1000 GP worth of Jacinth so you need to include that in your supplies... but there are ways to discount this as highlighted below.

I thought about adding Conjuration Summoning to the allowed school list, and then relying on Secret Chest to ferry equipment around (available to the cleric if he take the Commerce domain). But I'm not sure if that would allow some other spells to act as a back door entrance to the demiplane (or for external enemies to summon your physical body out).

Of course to minimize the chances of someone finding your chest on the Ethereal plane and rigging it, you should store the chest on your demiplane most of the time. So to get your chest to the material plane, you have to:
1. Dismiss AP
2. Cast Secret Chest on your demiplane to hide the chest
3. Recast AP
4. Plane shift to the material plane
5. Summon the Secret Chest
6. Load up the Chest
7. Recast Secret Chest to hide it again
8. Dismiss AP
9. Resummon Secret Chest on your demiplane to bring it back
10. Unload chest and swap gear
11. Recast AP and go on with your business

Thats 2 castings of AP and Secret Chest when you want to perform a swap. Furthermore, if you think someone might shapechange into a fine creature and try and hitch a ride on your Secret Chest, you can sweep it with an Antimagic field first (suppresses shapechange) to check.


Discounting Astral Projection:
The Astral Projection spell is reasonably straightforward, but suffers from a couple of problems. Firstly, it consumes 1000 GP worth of Jacinth with each casting. Secondly, it can be dispelled, which means that whenever you are hit by greater dispel magic (or equivalent effect), you run a reasonable chance of being taken out of the fight (although you will merely awaken on your plane, the rest of your party may not be so lucky). There are a few methods to try and circumvent these problems:

Nightmare Simulacrum: As suggested by IceFractal, the Nightmare creature can cast Astral Projection as a Supernatural ability at will. You could make a loyal simulcrum to use for all your subsequent castings (since Astral Projection lets you bring along other creatures so you can order your nightmare to project along with you). This is probably the best solution, as Supernatural Abilities not only consumes no resources, but also CANNOT be dispelled. Once you are out in the astral plane, ask your nightmare to dismiss his own projection and carry on with your business.

Custom Item: You could craft a custom item that provides continuous Astral Projection. As an item effect it might arguably not be subject to area dispel, but targetted dispel aimed at suppressing it will still work (and will work better over time, since its caster level remains constant, while your enemies keep improving). There's also the risk of Disjunction wiping out your investment. The cost for such an item is estimated to be 9 SL x 17 CL x 2,000 gp x 1/2 for duration>24 hrs + (100 x 1,000) for costly material component = 253,000 gp.

Innate Spell (PGF): This feat lets you select one spell and cast it as an SLA 3x per day, in exchange you lose 1 spell slot of equivalent level. If the spell has an expensive material component, you can substitute it with a focus that has 50x the cost (in this case a 50,000 gp giant Jacinth). This lets you recast Astral Projection up to 3x per day if dispelled, and the caster level continues to scale. Furthermore, each casting requires no additional expenditure of resources on your part. However, Innate Spell has some hefty requirements, needing you to take Still and Silent spell. If you are an incantatrix with extra feats coming out your rear, this isn't so bad. But if you are a Feat short cleric, its not such a good idea.

Shapechange/Assume Supernatural Ability + Polymorph: When you shapechange into a Nightmare, you can gain its supernatural Astral Projection. Similiarly, you can use Assume Supernatural Ability to gain 1 supernatural ability when you polymorph, but you need the outsider type to start with in order to polymorph into a nightmare. Furthermore the wording of Assume Supernatural Ability can be intepreted to let you only assume 1 ability of 1 form ever. The problem with this method, is that it is uncertain if Astral Projection will end when you shift out of Nightmare form.

This also works with the Psionic equivalent (Metamorphic Transfer + Metamophorsis) and Greater Metamorphosis. But in both cases you need your type to be Outsider to start with, to assume Nightmare form.

Dweomerkeeper: Easily the most broken class in the game and for good reason. With Dweomerkeeper, you can convert any spell that takes a standard action or less into a supernatural ability that consumes no resources and cannot be dispelled. Supernatural Astral Projection is just the start. You can cast Supernatural Wish (off plane) and get it to mimic Simulacra of any creature you want (no need for creature components).


Concealing Astral Projection:
While not an absolute requirement for safety (if you did everything else right, they wouldn't be able to kill you even if they knew you were Astral Projecting) it is occasionally useful to pretend that you are in fact, real. The rules don't explicitly state how the silver chord might be hidden, so we are left to make stuff up. The description for astral projection states that "When a second body is formed on a different plane, the incorporeal silvery cord remains invisibly attached to the new body". So only creatures with see invisible can detect the the silver chord. The rules also state that the chord extends 5 ft from your skull before merging with the astral plane.

Tie it Down: It is uncertain if anything can interact with the Silver Chord (the text merely specifies it is difficult to break). The text does say that it is incorporeal, so you can try and tie it down with Riverine (objects of solid force from Stormwrack) and then shove it under your cloak.

Disguise: The only failsafe method. If you can *cover* the space the chord normally occupies you might be able to hide it from plain sight. Options include shapechanging into something that has a skull in a concealed position, or having giant fluffy hair that extends out more than 5 feet in all directions.


Contingent Resurrection:
As pointed out by other posters below, there is a long list of methods by which one might achieve contingent resurrection. Unfortunately since you blocked evocation, magic Contingency doesn't work. And with Divination blocked, neither does psionic Contingency.

Craft Contingent Spell: Grab this feat and then setup a contingent True Ressurection to trigger when he is physically killed. It costs 7650 GP, 25000 GP of diamonds and 712 XP to set up a Craft Contingent Resurrection. Not too unreasonable.

Psionic Revivify: isn't barred, but it has some hefty requirements to work. It cannot be cast normally by a Simulacrum due to the XP cost (although it can be cast off items like Power Stones). It must be cast the round after your death (tricky business for the Simulacra to know when you died since Divination is barred). Since Psionic Contingency is blocked, you need a rather elaborate setup for it to work. A few possible setups are described below

a) Using Quintessence might preserve your body at "moment of death" (I say 'might' as sealing your body off from the time stream, might arguably also kill your Astral Projection making it unworkable). Letting your Simulacra revivify you at his leisure whenever he realizes you are dead. Which in turn can be done if you send a message every week or something, and he proceeds with revivify when he stops receiving messages.

b) Using Deathwatch, a Simulacrum can immediately known when you died, and can ready action to activate Revivify the moment it happens. You probably need a pair of Simulacra for this who will take turns keeping watch. Deathwatch can be gained by:
-Custom item which provides it as a continuous effect
-Cleric Simulacra with the right build can persist it (either normally on a level 7 slot, or with DMM cheese)
-A lot of Eternal wands, recast every 10 minutes

Divine Revivify: A Cleric level 5 spell, it brings you back with -1 HP but stable. No XP loss, and only 1000 GP of Diamond Dust as its component. As it is based off raise dead, it cannot bring you back if you were slain by a death effect (might happen). It must be cast immediately after you die, making it only useful as a Crafted Contingent spell, or if you use the complicated setup as with Psionic Revivify. If you have this available and Craft Contingent spell, it is much cheaper than True Rezz, costing just 2250 GP, 180 XP and 1000 GP of diamonds. Set this up as the primary rezz, and you can have True Resurrection kicking in as a backup e.g. Revivify kicks in immediately, and if that fails (because you were killed by a death effect), True Rezz activates if you remain dead for 1 hour.

Spell-Stitched: Spellstitched undead creatures can cast SLAs with no resource cost. Unfortunately, the highest level spell you can imbue is 6, which means you can't use it for Astral Projection, but you might be able to get Revivify and Raise Dead on one. However, the text specifies that only Wizards and Sorcerers can create a Spell Stitched, so it is debatable whether or not they can imbue the Spellstiched with spells that are on the Cleric spell list.

Also, the undead needs a wisdom of 17 to gain access to level 5 spells, so that rules out the commonly available Skeletons and Zombies. The more intelligent undead have to be obtained through Command Undead, so if you forget to recast that, your spellstiched Nightwalker may decide to kill you. Your best bet in this regard might be Undead leadership for an Undead Cohort. Otherwise you could try and create a loyal intelligent Undead Simulacra (since the creature retains its original type). However, Simulacrum itself states that the creature cannot be advanced in anyway and this might reasonably include spellstitching.

Clone: Store the clone on the Demiplane. To make up for the lost level, you could periodically "back-up" your experience in a thought bottle. But over the long run, this gets XP expensive. The Psionic equivalent Astral Seed unfortunately does not work since it is Metacreativity, and you barred its equivalent school: Conjuration.

Simulucrum: Use this to copy a high level Cleric and give him a stash of diamonds. You could then order the Simulucrum to cast True Ressurection should you physically die. (The Cleric could cast speak with dead on your physical body a few times a day to check if and when the you are dead). In the absence of a sufficiently high level cleric, one that can cast Raise Dead might be good enough, provided you periodically back up your levels in a thought bottle.

Lich/Deathless: By parking your Phylactery (or its equivalent) on the Demiplane, you can ensure that your body will regenerate there, after your original physical form is slain. Of course after a while, the bones will start piling up. Lich normally requires 4 LA, but the Walker in the Waster PrC grants you the Dry Lich template for a comparatively lesser 2 caster levels lost. (It also grants you full HD so you can partially compensate with practiced spellcaster).


Overview of Casters:
In this section we review how each caster might achieve the above effects.

Artificers/Warlocks: Surprisingly, these 2 can set up everything with minimal trouble. All they need is Craft Contingent Spell, and then they can crank out Contingent Genesis, Contingent Nightmare Simulacrum and Contingent Revivify, backed up with Contingent True Resurrection. If you're feeling a bit more tight with your XP and generous with your cash, you can buy and UMD scrolls of Genesis and Simulcrum instead. Their one real problem is the lack of secret chest, and while it is possible to create Contingent Secret Chests, it gets XP expensive over time (180 xp for each casting). They might want to instead create another Wizard (or Cleric) Simulacra who can cast it normally and rely on them instead (The Simulacra can Astral Project along with you and the Nightmare).

Clerics/Archivist: Clerics can get Genesis from the Creation domain and Secret Chest from the Commerce domain (and Archivist can access both). Pick up Craft Contingent Spell and they can load up on Contingent Revivify, backed up by Contingent True Resurrections. But (AFAIK) they cannot access Simulcrum. Their best bet then might be to invest in UMD and cast Simulacrum off scrolls to get Nightmares (and possibly Wizards for Secret Chest in case the Cleric does not have the Commerce domain).

Psions: Psions are rather left behind in this endeavour. Shapers have Genesis as a discipline power but thats about it. No Simulacrum, no Secret Chest, and Revivify cannot use Contingency and needs an elaborate setup. Again, try to invest in UMD and cast Simulcrum from scrolls. Get a Nightmare to astral project, a Wizard to cast secret Chest. Bring along a Cleric Simulacrum to revivify you from the dead and give him some items of True Rezz in case Revivify fails (and back up your levels in a thought bottle).

Wizards: Wizard can cast Genesis, Secret Chest and Simulacrum. They can also create backup Clones of themselves. All in all not too shabby, although they need to backup their experience in thought bottles periodically to make up for the lost level from cloning. Or if possible, they could get a high level Cleric simulacra who can cast true resurrection.

[quick_comment]

1) Its spelled trait.

2) To get the jacinth, just declare that your demiplane's ground is made of it. But you shouldnt need that much, since astral projection lasts as long as you want.

3) Have your astral projection done by shapechanging into a fiend or ghost capable of possession then possessing another wizard. Then have him cast astral projection.

4) Or cast surelife, and have its condition be: severing of my silver cord.

5) Also, use powerful illusion magic to cover up your silver cord so people dont know you are astrally projecting.

[JeminiZero]

2) To get the jacinth, just declare that your demiplane's ground is made of it. But you shouldnt need that much, since astral projection lasts as long as you want.

But it will still be of finite quantity, and might run out over the long run. You might need quite a bit of it if you are repeatedly killed / dispelled / have to return to the demiplane for whatever other reason.

3) Have your astral projection done by shapechanging into a fiend or ghost capable of possession then possessing another wizard. Then have him cast astral projection.

It strikes me as very risky to have a high level (and potentially hostile) wizard on your demiplane. There is also the issue of having to recast shapechange AND Astral Projection (and whatever other spells are needed to get you to where you last were) every 170 minutes (<3 hours) or so (and which would quickly deplete your Jacinth supply).

By RAI, I think the Astral Projection is your spiritual essence, so severing the chord will kill you even if you relied on someone elses body as conduit to cast it.

4) Or cast surelife, and have its condition be: severing of my silver cord.

Surelife requires that it be cast before your silver chord is cut. For that to work, the contingency must be worded in something like activating just before Silver Chord is cut, which usually doesn't fly.

5) Also, use powerful illusion magic to cover up your silver cord so people dont know you are astrally projecting.

Thats another issue worth considering. Although anything with True Sight, Arcane Sight or derivatives thereof will still be able to see it.

[Coidzor]

Damn. Permanency would be perfect for Surelife in this instance... Too bad it explicitly defines what can be permanencied rather than having guidelines.

Hmm... Then again. I'm not so sure that surelife could protect against the cord being severed since I don't think that counts as a natural occurence but more of an action of a creature. Definitely is way too DM-dependent to be relied upon, methinks.

Secret chest only allows for one model of the chest to be made and the astral projection would have to have it in order to put anything into the chest... Wait, you'd just go onto the ethereal directly where the secret chest is hidden and put things in? Hm... Definitely seems like it'd work. 17 cubic feet of stuff per haul... Which I definitely hope is enough to make it worth the Jacinth to astral project to get it into the chest in the first place and then some...

[icefractal]

As far as the ressurection goes, Revivify is a cheap alternative if you have a cohort/simulacrum to provide it. I'm somewhat dubious on the merits of sealing yourself off completely, but if you do that, and need more diamond, you can just cast Genesis again to expand your plane. You won't need need jacinth, because you can just use a Simulacrum of a Nightmare for your projecting needs.

[JeminiZero]

Secret chest only allows for one model of the chest to be made and the astral projection would have to have it in order to put anything into the chest... Wait, you'd just go onto the ethereal directly where the secret chest is hidden and put things in?

Since Astral Projection provides your astral form with a copy of all items you carry, I think you can use your astral copy of the Secret Chest focus to summon the chest on the material plane.

As far as the ressurection goes, Revivify is a cheap alternative if you have a cohort/simulacrum to provide it.

The one poblem with Revivify, is that it miust be cast immediately after death. As it stands, the Cleric simulacrum has no idea when you if you died. He can't see out of the plane as divination is banned. He has to cast speak with dead in order to figure out if you died. Theres also the issue of whether or not a Simulcrum has any buffer XP with which to fuel the power.

I'm somewhat dubious on the merits of sealing yourself off completely, but if you do that, and need more diamond, you can just cast Genesis again to expand your plane.

Yeesss... well, one problem with the barred magic system is that you can't expand your plane once its created, since Conjuration (creation) which includes Genesis, is banned. And we can't allow Conjuration Creation since that includes Gate.

You won't need need jacinth, because you can just use a Simulacrum of a Nightmare for your projecting needs.

That is an excellent suggestion. I will include that in the write up.

[Douglas]

Death Pact, from Spell Compendium. Contingent True Resurrection as an 8th level spell with 1000 gp materials. Permanent until discharged. Comes with the drawback of a permanent -2 con that can only be recovered by Wish/Miracle and only after the spell is discharged or dispelled, but that seems a small price to pay.

[mostlyharmful]

You could try having a some kind of permenancied Dimensional Lock or have it as a dimensional trait, you'd be able to grow your plane and that would leave Creations ok which solves the material problems for a price.

[Lycanthromancer]

You can get astral projection by level 7. You must be an outsider, have access to polymorph/metamorphosis, and either the Assume Supernatural Ability feat or Metamorphic Transfer (though this requires ML of 5 - doable with a manifester dip and the Practiced Manifester feat. (Again, see the nightmare entry.) No long-term resources used, and again, it's a Su ability, so...

As far as death goes, clones, clones, clones. Since astral projection gives you copies of all of your stuff, and your stuff is on your body, all you have to do is transfer your equipment onto your clone, and you're good to go. (Also, astral seed.)

Of course, for immortality, coat your body completely in quintessence. Your mind and soul are outside of your body, but your body is in timeless stasis. Just have a construct minion around to pull your body out whenever your soul is inhabiting it (contact it every day, and give it the instructions that if a day is missed, to scrape some quintessence off - and have some extra on hand in case you don't immediately wake up, to refresh the Freshness Seal).

[woodenbandman]

Clones, simulacra, contingent revivify... there's really no challenge to getting free rez. Just take Loremaster and have your simulacrum UMD a scroll of revivify. If you're feeling paranoid, go revenance + revivify.

[JeminiZero]

Death Pact, from Spell Compendium. Contingent True Resurrection as an 8th level spell with 1000 gp materials. Permanent until discharged. Comes with the drawback of a permanent -2 con that can only be recovered by Wish/Miracle and only after the spell is discharged or dispelled, but that seems a small price to pay.

Hmm... that might be useful. Its not nearly as good as Craft Contingent True Resurrection of course, but if that isn't available, 5000 XP for Miracle might be better than a whole lost level.

Now if only I can figure out how to prevent Wish/Miracle from transporting folks onto your plane, without barring the entire entire schools.

You could try having a some kind of permenancied Dimensional Lock or have it as a dimensional trait, you'd be able to grow your plane and that would leave Creations ok which solves the material problems for a price.

The problem with Dimension Lock (and similiar spells that bar planar travel) is that an Epic Casters (and probably Dieties) can crank out some epic teleport to circumvent it.

You can get astral projection by level 7. You must be an outsider, have access to polymorph/metamorphosis, and either the Assume Supernatural Ability feat or Metamorphic Transfer (though this requires ML of 5 - doable with a manifester dip and the Practiced Manifester feat. (Again, see the nightmare entry.) No long-term resources used, and again, it's a Su ability, so...

Actually, you can't. Metamorphosis specifically states that you can't assume outsider forms (which Nightmares are).

Polymorph/Assume Supernatural Ability (and Shapechange) might work, but arguably the Astral Projection will end as soon as you shift out of Nightmare form. But I will note your suggestion.

(Also, astral seed.)

That doesn't work either since Conjuration (and the Psionic equivalent Metacreativity) is barred.

Of course, for immortality, coat your body completely in quintessence. Your mind and soul are outside of your body, but your body is in timeless stasis. Just have a construct minion around to pull your body out whenever your soul is inhabiting it (contact it every day, and give it the instructions that if a day is missed, to scrape some quintessence off - and have some extra on hand in case you don't immediately wake up, to refresh the Freshness Seal).

Noted. Its a bit complicated, but I think still workable.

Clones, simulacra, contingent revivify... there's really no challenge to getting free rez. Just take Loremaster and have your simulacrum UMD a scroll of revivify. If you're feeling paranoid, go revenance + revivify.

You need Use Psionic Device actually. UMD does not work with psionic items. And Psionics do not store powers on scrolls, they use Power Stones. Still it is one way to cicrumvent the inability of a simulacrum to use powers with XP cost.

[Eldritch_Ent]

Didn't really read the thread, but one potential thing you could use would be a custom item of "Permanent Clone"... It would be expensive, but you could probably talk any DM into it if it was a one-off item. (IE it constantly updates itself throughout the day, but breaks and you'd have to make another one once used.)

A more powerful version of the same item could just clone you and bring you back to the realm of the living as-needed, where you could just grab your stuff of of your corpse, Dispose of it (by, say, dumping it into the plane of Fire), and starting anew.

[Coidzor]

The one poblem with Revivify, is that it miust be cast immediately after death. As it stands, the Cleric simulacrum has no idea when you if you died. He can't see out of the plane as divination is banned. He has to cast speak with dead in order to figure out if you died. Theres also the issue of whether or not a Simulcrum has any buffer XP with which to fuel the power.

Hmm... Perhaps a simulacrum of a druid to cast detect animals or plants and determine your HP count. 10-th level equivalent would only need 15 castings to cover a 24 hour cycle, though there'd need to be at least two of them for the number of spells and the whole resting thing... Forgot about banning divination, sorry.

Similarly, a set of 10th level equivalent non-good cleric simulacrums can maintain deathwatch to determine the creator's condition. 15 castings per 24 hour cycle. 100 minutes each, more with better simulacrums. Might be able to get around that with items such as several eternal wands (I think the max would be CL 5 with 50 minutes per casting, which would need 29 castings or 15 eternal wands, barring going with creating them as custom items that allow the higher CL to be used)

Hm... ought to be some kind of skill check that could be made to distinguish between dead and suspended animation... ah well. Deathwatch should be able to determine it though, since it's not judging from your astral self's status but rather your physical body's status.

[pingcode20]

If you go Walker in the Waste, you're down two caster levels, but you can become a Dry Lich at 20th (by delaying the 10th level, of course) and achieve what amounts to absolute immortality short of divine curbstomp, since you simply reform after being killed and it is absolutely impossible to get at your canopic jars.

Of course, that doesn't solve the problem of attrition-by-Jacinth-depletion or attrition-by-Nightmare-Simulacrum-death.

However, since the need to prevent your actual body from dying is removed, you could employ the Secret Chest method to acquire fresh materials, and possibly just lock down your canopic jars to prevent theft and subsequent destruction of them.

I haven't been able to figure out if there's a method to summon the objects directly, but I'm sure someone will come up with one.

[olentu]

The quintessence thing is really unnecessary in my view. This is because of a few main things.

First if we take a reasonable reading of the D&D rules then astral projection already keeps you from aging. This is my thought process. Now astral projection puts your body into a state of suspended animation. This term is as far as I can see undefined in the text of astral projection. Now I am only able to find suspended animation used in the PHB in the spells astral projection, imprisonment, sepia snake sigil, sequester, and temporal stasis. Now then astral projection, imprisonment, sepia snake sigil, and sequester do not define what suspended animation means, but imprisonment says see the temporal stasis spell. The temporal stasis spell can then be taken to define what suspended animation does. Now the temporal stasis spell allows one to put the target into suspended animation and then says "For the creature, time ceases to flow and its condition becomes fixed. The creature does not grow older. Its body functions virtually cease, and no force or effect can harm it." Now that would seem to be the effect of suspended animation. Now there is language in astral projection and sepia snake sigil that allows for the body to be harmed and that would supersede the part of the definition of suspended animation take from temporal stasis that keeps the target from being harmed but the rest of the description still stands.

Second if we take a different reading of the rules it becomes unclear just what protection quintessence provides. It says that objects sealed within quintessence "are protected from the effects of time; in practical terms, they enter a state of stasis." Now since your body is still alive and astral projection does not say it changes into an object it remains a creature. Now creatures and objects are used separately and if creatures and objects are the same thing the game breaks down in many areas. So I can only conclude that a creature is not an object. And thus this section of the text of quintessence does not apply. Then the only applicable text is that a large amount of quintessence could be used to preserve a creature. However as the specific definition of preserve to be used is not said, preserve could mean that as in gentle repose the quintessence only keeps the creature from decaying. However as I can not find a definition of decay it can not be said that aging is decaying decay may merely mean decomposition which is not listed on the aging effects table. So quintessence does not necessarily stop aging of a creature.

Third if we assume that creatures are "protected from the effects of time; in practical terms, they enter a state of stasis" then this still does not necessarily prevent aging. Stasis does not seem to be defined and so it seems to me that it means motionlessness. Now as I can not find listed effects of time this really means nothing.

However the might be extrapolated from the timeless trait and as leeway for an effect to work on creatures when only listed on objects is already being given this extrapolation might be taken as well. So making this extrapolation it might be that aging is an effect of time. Now even making all these tweaks for this to work protection in the rules ranges from immunity as provided by mind blank to an alarm spell providing notification of an event occurring as from secure shelter. So the protection is not defined and as such does could merely mean that you are notified when aging occurs.

Now I am sure that aeven more detail and allowances could be made that would allow for quintessence to work and astral projection to not work but I already feel that I have gone so far outside the rules that it would be even more meaningless to continue. However if I had to rule I would probably allow quintessence to work on creatures as it does on objects but in any case astral projection would stop aging.

So in conclusion astral projection should stop aging and it is not a given that quintessence will stop aging in a creature.




And perhaps more on topic the planar binding line is another way to get nightmares for help. This is however a bit more dangerous but should be available earlier then simulacrum.

Also I am not sure but I thing that as genesis is a limited access demiplane there is a door from it to the plane that genesis is cast on. However I can not remember where I remember this from so it may or may not be correct.

Also depending on the interpretation of "regardless of local conditions" in wish it might not be enough to ban universal school spells from working as the planar trait could be ruled to be a local condition. So while traps and guardians can probably be set for someone wishing themselves onto your plane you could be wished off of your plane. So transforming your body into something that has magic immunity like a golem would block getting wished off of your plane as wish allows spell resistance.

I think that there is some other way to open a gate between planes but I can not quite remember where it is from. It should however get around most protections. So it would be good to have traps and creatures to fight off invaders and warn you if this happens.

[JeminiZero]

Similarly, a set of 10th level equivalent non-good cleric simulacrums can maintain deathwatch to determine the creator's condition. 15 castings per 24 hour cycle. 100 minutes each, more with better simulacrums. Might be able to get around that with items such as several eternal wands (I think the max would be CL 5 with 50 minutes per casting, which would need 29 castings or 15 eternal wands, barring going with creating them as custom items that allow the higher CL to be used)

Hmmm... Interesting. Certainly a correctly built Cleric (well a pair of them anyway) can DMM persist Deathwatch and take turns, or it could be enchanted onto a custom item. I will add that as a possibility for the Psionic Revivify setup.

If you go Walker in the Waste, you're down two caster levels, but you can become a Dry Lich at 20th (by delaying the 10th level, of course) and achieve what amounts to absolute immortality short of divine curbstomp, since you simply reform after being killed and it is absolutely impossible to get at your canopic jars.

Ah yes, Lichdom. The easiest way to free rezzes. How could I forget.

Of course, that doesn't solve the problem of attrition-by-Jacinth-depletion or attrition-by-Nightmare-Simulacrum-death.

Hopefully, asking the Nightmare to dimiss its AP just after you both project should minimize its vulnerability. Unless of course some angry diety has set up a siege just around your demi-plane.

I haven't been able to figure out if there's a method to summon the objects directly, but I'm sure someone will come up with one.

Yes, I'm still wondering about that. And if there is any other way to get supplies onto your plane.

And perhaps more on topic the planar binding line is another way to get nightmares for help. This is however a bit more dangerous but should be available earlier then simulacrum.

It would, but you need a Demiplane to astral project from first and thats a level 9 spell.

Also I am not sure but I thing that as genesis is a limited access demiplane there is a door from it to the plane that genesis is cast on. However I can not remember where I remember this from so it may or may not be correct.

Yes a reference would be useful. I'm still searching for where it states that limited magic demiplanes bar even diefic magic.

Also depending on the interpretation of "regardless of local conditions" in wish it might not be enough to ban universal school spells from working as the planar trait could be ruled to be a local condition.

That is certainly true. On the other hand, if limited magic barred even dieties, then arguably Wish wouldn't work as well. I need to find the reference for that.

I think that there is some other way to open a gate between planes but I can not quite remember where it is from. It should however get around most protections. So it would be good to have traps and creatures to fight off invaders and warn you if this happens.

Well, it helps if you can name it specifically. Then measures can be taken to try and block it as well. Certainly though having a personal army on the plane would be useful. It would at least buy you time should some gate crashes appear. Although most of the time, except for mindless undead, utterly loyal personal armies are expensive.

Now if only I could figure out how to rig an alarm system.

[Lamech]

Dweamorkeeper would stop any and all types of attrition.

[Coidzor]

! Spell-stitched template can get around XP/material costs for casting spells up to 6th level, so it would cover both revive undead(if you're something other than a dry lich/lich) and revivify(Spell Compendium). Usually on a minion with buffed-up wisdom at the time of spell-stitchery... Costs, I think, two feats, one for the necromantic familiar and one for the ability to make it spell-stitched(craft wondrous items, which likely is going to be taken anyway). oh wait... familiar would go kaput if master dies... hmm... spell-stitched undead under the control of both of the health-monitor cleric simulacra?

Fairly costly to set up, but would pay for itself later by preventing level loss and cutting material component costs...

Rary's Interplanar telepathic bond from Planar handbook might be of interest for your alarm system.

Also, Precipitate Planar Breach and Precipitate Complete Planar Breach from the same source. Not sure if those can be defended against.

Planar Bubble is a 7th level wizard/cleric spell that allows normal magic for 10 minutes/level. Also from planar handbook.

[quick_comment]

There is some spell in the planar handbook that lets you ignore the impeded magic trait of the plane you are on. So you can recast genesis.

[Lycanthromancer]

Actually, you can't. Metamorphosis specifically states that you can't assume outsider forms (which Nightmares are).

Well, it does say "You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form, or any other type except construct, elemental, outsider, and undead." This means that if your creature type is outsider, the first part of that sentence overrides the latter. Hence, being a tiefling, aasimar, neraphim, or a humanoid creature with the Otherworldly feat allows you to become an outsider, just as being a warforged (or a psicrystal) would allow you to become a construct, or being a necropolitan would let you turn into other undead.

Polymorph/Assume Supernatural Ability (and Shapechange) might work, but arguably the Astral Projection will end as soon as you shift out of Nightmare form. But I will note your suggestion.

The DM could potentially rule that way, but that's Rule 0, and a houserule. Fair enough, considering how cheesy it is, but there's really no argument for ending the astral projection effect after you're no longer a nightmare. After all, any other effect cast/manifested on you while under the effects of metamorphosis continues to affect you after the super-special-awesome-transformation-sequence-go! ends.

That doesn't work either since Conjuration (and the Psionic equivalent Metacreativity) is barred.

Again, this is a reasonable houserule, but it's still Rule 0. Only when such an effect is manifested within the area does the bar still apply; once manifested, it should work within the area as normal (meaning you send your seed into the demiplane after you create it).

[olentu]

Well, it helps if you can name it specifically. Then measures can be taken to try and block it as well. Certainly though having a personal army on the plane would be useful. It would at least buy you time should some gate crashes appear. Although most of the time, except for mindless undead, utterly loyal personal armies are expensive.

Now if only I could figure out how to rig an alarm system.

I have found what I remember. It is the breaching obelisk from the planar handbook. It can allow a planar breach onto basically any plane and then it is possible that someone could get in. So while the severity of the breach does not seem to be listed or I am just missing it the text implies that it is probably a complete breach. So depending on what the severity of the breach is ruled to be it may be possible to get into the demiplane.

Edit: Also the ring of free magic from the same book can allow a caster to cast spells of a prohibited school as if the limited magic trait did not exist. So the limited magic trait is not really any protection from a caster with such a ring.

[SirKazum]

There is some spell in the planar handbook that lets you ignore the impeded magic trait of the plane you are on. So you can recast genesis.

"Impeded" is one thing, it merely requires passing a Spellcraft check to cast the spell. What the OP is talking about here is "limited magic", which means the types of magic affected simply don't exist at all on the demiplane. Harder to get around, sure, but also safer, since anything you can circumvent, your enemies can theoretically circumvent as well.

In fact, this principle is probably the biggest security flaw for the paranoid wizard. If anything can be brought into your plane at all, this "anything" might be an enemy. For instance, the Secret Chest with supplies. What's stopping an enemy (let's say, Shapeshifted into a really minuscule bug and invisible to boot) from hiding among the supplies you stash into your Secret Chest? Sure, that's being really paranoid, but that's kind of the whole point here

[JeminiZero]

! Spell-stitched template can get around XP/material costs for casting spells up to 6th level, so it would cover both revive undead(if you're something other than a dry lich/lich) and revivify(Spell Compendium). Usually on a minion with buffed-up wisdom at the time of spell-stitchery... Costs, I think, two feats, one for the necromantic familiar and one for the ability to make it spell-stitched(craft wondrous items, which likely is going to be taken anyway). oh wait... familiar would go kaput if master dies... hmm... spell-stitched undead under the control of both of the health-monitor cleric simulacra?

Fairly costly to set up, but would pay for itself later by preventing level loss and cutting material component costs...

Its not going to be easy to set up, since it requires undead with a Wisdom of 17 to get level 5 spells. That excludes the loyal Skellies and Zombies, and intelligent undead tend to backstab you the moment command undead wears off. I can only think of Undead Leadership. A loyal Simulacra of an intelligent undead might also work, but Simulacrum itself states that the creature cannot be advanced in any way.

Rary's Interplanar telepathic bond from Planar handbook might be of interest for your alarm system.

Noted, although that will require Ring of Free Magic since it is Divination.

Also, Precipitate Planar Breach and Precipitate Complete Planar Breach from the same source. Not sure if those can be defended against.

From my quick reading of the spell, the caster has no control of the Breach, and the Breach randomly leads to one of the established major planes, so it shouldn't be a problem.

Planar Bubble is a 7th level wizard/cleric spell that allows normal magic for 10 minutes/level. Also from planar handbook.

Hmm... the Planr Bubble would likely let a Cleric cast normally on the plane he is on, but I'm not sure if the bubble's effect extends into other planes.

Well, it does say "You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form, or any other type except construct, elemental, outsider, and undead." This means that if your creature type is outsider, the first part of that sentence overrides the latter. Hence, being a tiefling, aasimar, neraphim, or a humanoid creature with the Otherworldly feat allows you to become an outsider, just as being a warforged (or a psicrystal) would allow you to become a construct, or being a necropolitan would let you turn into other undead.

Yes, I apologize for missing that part.

The DM could potentially rule that way, but that's Rule 0, and a houserule. Fair enough, considering how cheesy it is, but there's really no argument for ending the astral projection effect after you're no longer a nightmare. After all, any other effect cast/manifested on you while under the effects of metamorphosis continues to affect you after the super-special-awesome-transformation-sequence-go! ends.

The problem is that its not a casted effect as much as it is a supernatural ability limited to specific creature. Its like saying that you can shapechange into a Pixie, activate Greater Inivisibility, and then when you shift back, you still have Greater Invis active.

Again, this is a reasonable houserule, but it's still Rule 0. Only when such an effect is manifested within the area does the bar still apply; once manifested, it should work within the area as normal (meaning you send your seed into the demiplane after you create it).

Actually, the Seed regrowing into your body specifies that it draws matter from the Astral Plane, in line with the description of the Metacreativity discipline. It would not be unreasonable to believe that the regrowth of your body from the seed is also a metacreative effect and is suppressed by the limited magic trait.

I have found what I remember. It is the breaching obelisk from the planar handbook. It can allow a planar breach onto basically any plane and then it is possible that someone could get in. So while the severity of the breach does not seem to be listed or I am just missing it the text implies that it is probably a complete breach. So depending on what the severity of the breach is ruled to be it may be possible to get into the demiplane.

Edit: Also the ring of free magic from the same book can allow a caster to cast spells of a prohibited school as if the limited magic trait did not exist. So the limited magic trait is not really any protection from a caster with such a ring.

Man, that puts a hole in the plan. Anyway around those?

In fact, this principle is probably the biggest security flaw for the paranoid wizard. If anything can be brought into your plane at all, this "anything" might be an enemy. For instance, the Secret Chest with supplies. What's stopping an enemy (let's say, Shapeshifted into a really minuscule bug and invisible to boot) from hiding among the supplies you stash into your Secret Chest? Sure, that's being really paranoid, but that's kind of the whole point here

I suppose that is a fair point. The only way I can think of detecting something like that is to do an Antimagic Sweep of the chest to suppress Shapechange effects.

[olentu]

Man, that puts a hole in the plan. Anyway around those?

There is nothing that I can think of at the moment.

[Corwin Weber]

Ok, am I the only person reading this threat who thinks that this whole insistence on a limited magic trait for the demiplane is a seriously bad idea?

Step back. Take a deep breath. Read over the thread and look at how many times you're saying 'yeah, but I can't do that because that school is barred here.'

You're tying your own hands here. You pretty much have to be a wizard, sorc, cleric or psion to pull this off. Magic/psionics is all you've got. Don't be so obsessive about people using various types of magic that you cut yourself off from the only tool you've got.

** Edited to add **

Thought about this for a bit. You're making this way too complicated.

Create your demiplane with the following traits: It's a big open space filled with Quintessence.

Problem solved. You go in, triggering a contingent Astral Projection. Anybody else comes in? Doesn't go out.

[SirKazum]

Well *can* you do that? There are limitations to what you can create with Genesis - off-hand, I know you can't create life or artificial buildings. Is there anything against creating magical or psionic substances?

And now I've thought about something so obvious, it HAS to have been thought of before, but I couldn't find it in this thread so here goes: what if the enemy Astral Projects into your plane? After all, if you can do it, why can't they?

And I've also been thinking - does limiting Conjurations really stop Gate? I mean, sure, you couldn't cast Gate IN your plane, but people are casting it OUTSIDE of it. This also brings up all sorts of questions about how planar magic limitations affect magic that brings you into the plane or affect it from afar - things like Planar Bubble and so on. More discussion on this is probably in order.

And here's one idea, since I agree that limiting spellcasting is tying your own hands. What if you make your demiplane with more than one layer? Transportation magic in general dumps you into the first layer of a plane, so you could put all sorts of restrictions in there, or even make it dead-magic to be sure. Then you reside in the SECOND layer, where most magic (let's say, except for Divination) works, so you can Contingent-True-Ressurrect, have a True Creation permanent item to take care of material components, and so on. And nobody said you have to LEAVE a plane from the first layer - you just enter it there.

But yeah, since the point here is being paranoid, maybe we should focus more on what could be done to breach our defenses...

[Coidzor]

How would you go about adding an additional layer though? Didn't think Genesis could do that.

[JeminiZero]

Ok, am I the only person reading this threat who thinks that this whole insistence on a limited magic trait for the demiplane is a seriously bad idea?

Step back. Take a deep breath. Read over the thread and look at how many times you're saying 'yeah, but I can't do that because that school is barred here.'

Perhaps. But the alternative goes something like "Whee! I can do this, but my enemies know where I live, how to get here, and will likely kill me the moment I let my guard down."

Thought about this for a bit. You're making this way too complicated.

Create your demiplane with the following traits: It's a big open space filled with Quintessence.

Problem solved. You go in, triggering a contingent Astral Projection. Anybody else comes in? Doesn't go out.

OK, lets say that your Astral Projection was killed. You are now in Quintessence, cut off from time, never to awaken, which is as good as dead. Then what?

On the flip side, if your enemies wanted to kill you, they could now find where you are with Discern Location. Once they know where you are, they can open up a gate (or Breach) to your plane. The Quintessence then rushes out through the gate until your limited demiplane is only half full. Your enemies now have space to fly in, look for your body floating in the goop, and then kill you.

And now I've thought about something so obvious, it HAS to have been thought of before, but I couldn't find it in this thread so here goes: what if the enemy Astral Projects into your plane? After all, if you can do it, why can't they?

The text of Astral Projection specifically kicks your Astral form into the Astral plane. You free to travel around there after that, but it won't bring you to any plane other than the Astral plane.

And I've also been thinking - does limiting Conjurations really stop Gate? I mean, sure, you couldn't cast Gate IN your plane, but people are casting it OUTSIDE of it.

Gate goes 2 ways. For it to work, one half of the gate is created on their local plane, and the other half is created on the target plane. If either half of the gate fails (usually due to Dimension Lock, but the cause here is limited magic) than the entire spell fails.

This also brings up all sorts of questions about how planar magic limitations affect magic that brings you into the plane or affect it from afar - things like Planar Bubble and so on. More discussion on this is probably in order.

I am unfortunately not too clear on the rules covering this either.

And here's one idea, since I agree that limiting spellcasting is tying your own hands. What if you make your demiplane with more than one layer? Transportation magic in general dumps you into the first layer of a plane, so you could put all sorts of restrictions in there, or even make it dead-magic to be sure. Then you reside in the SECOND layer, where most magic (let's say, except for Divination) works, so you can Contingent-True-Ressurrect, have a True Creation permanent item to take care of material components, and so on. And nobody said you have to LEAVE a plane from the first layer - you just enter it there.

Unfortunately, as Coidzor mentioned, Genesis only provides 2 functions. Create a new plane, or expand an existing one, it does not let you create layered planes like the Abyss.

[Claudius Maximus]

You don't fear death in your astral form, but you do need to worry about effects that bind or imprison you. Try to find a way to make yourself immune to spells like Snare Astral Traveler and Trap the Soul (and never ever take presents from strangers). I don't know of a way to make yourself immune to Imprisonment, but getting a scroll of Freedom and minions who will miss you would be a good idea.

[quick_comment]

You don't fear death in your astral form, but you do need to worry about effects that bind or imprison you. Try to find a way to make yourself immune to spells like Snare Astral Traveler and Trap the Soul (and never ever take presents from strangers). I don't know of a way to make yourself immune to Imprisonment, but getting a scroll of Freedom and minions who will miss you would be a good idea.

Always having greater spell immunity up against those spells would work.