Help me nerf my spellcaster! [Wheel of Time]

[Jardar]

Hello there!

I need some help. I'm currently running a loong WoT-campaign, using the official WoT d20-rules. But I have a big problem with the spellcasters, especially one spell they use. Arms of air.

Arms of air is used momentarily, it has no saving throw or attack check. As a 0-level spell, it let's the channeler use the air to lift up creatures and objects with a weight up to 25 lb and move them around with 20 ft a round. at 2nd level, they can lift 100 lb. As a 12-level spell, it can lift up to 100,000 lb.

The rules don't say what form the arms have, how big they can be, and how they cannot be used.

My players exploited this last session! As a 2nd-level channeler, he encountered a 16-level Padan Fain and 2 1-level trollocs. The first round he used arms of air as a 3rd level spell, grasping padan Fain with a force of 200 lb, pushing him to the ground. The rules say nothing about this! They effectively made him immovable, and would've coupe-de-graced him, if I hadn't come up with a deus ex-machina. This just can't be allowed!

So, if anyone can, I need help making this class and spell un-overpowered! Please!

[Zergrusheddie]

You could just say "It doesn't say in the rules that you are capable of doing such a thing, so I am not going to allow it."

[Fitz]

wheel of time casters are supposed to be really powerful
i would have thematic reactions (while since i read the books) such as waryness of normal folk, the power groups chasing them and look into fatigue and the like to hamper them after such strenuous use of magic?

Fitz

[Aharon]

How was he able to use it in the first round? Do you allow him to constantly embrace the true source?

The rules do state that you can manipulate an object as if with one hand. You can't push somebody to the ground with one hand, can you.

Also, if you don't want a Deus Ex, why do you let them meet a creature that is far above anything they can hope to win against? Or was it not intended by you that they attack?

I haven't extensively read the rules, but as far as I know, these rules are far less unbalanced than the D&D 3.5 rules, so you should be fine.

[KillianHawkeye]

To hold a Medium creature motionless requires the harden air weave cast at 3rd level. It cannot be done with arms of air, which is described as using the air to LIFT a creature or object. You cannot, by definition, lift something DOWNWARD.

Harden air allows a Reflex save to avoid.

EDIT: Anyways, Padan Fain should be able to avoid being killed because he possesses the power of plot.

[Krrth]

...not to mention that while being pushed down with 200 pounds isn't enough to make someone helpless enough for a coupe-de-gras. Slow his down, sure. Stop him? No.

[sombrastewart]

I had a similar problem in my WoT game, and made the call that Arms of Air only worked to lift willing or unconscious subjects.

[Jardar]

How was he able to use it in the first round? Do you allow him to constantly embrace the true source?

The rules do state that you can manipulate an object as if with one hand. You can't push somebody to the ground with one hand, can you.

Also, if you don't want a Deus Ex, why do you let them meet a creature that is far above anything they can hope to win against? Or was it not intended by you that they attack?

He was holding the source, as he was in The Ways, and has a block that only allows him to embrace the source while being afraid of the dark :P

It was intended by me that they should attack the man, and later discover that he was Padan Fain. Fain was supposed to grow tired of the battle, and run of with the campaigns MacGuffin. But... My players went offpist.

...not to mention that while being pushed down with 200 pounds isn't enough to make someone helpless enough for a coupe-de-gras. Slow his down, sure. Stop him? No.

That extra force of 200 lb put Padan Fain over his Heavy Load-limit.

I too thought that only Harden Air would allow players too freeze people in air. But the player went in a rage when I tried to discuss that. So I just let is slip for that session.

---


But onto the solution: If the arms try to grip an unwilling, conscious person, they should get a fairly easy reflex check? It would be as evading a physical hand trying to grab you, I think. Or maybe a grapple check from the hand, with the caster's INT/WIS instead of STR.
Other than that, the Arms can be used as whips, dealing damage or pushing objects.

[Britter]

My opinion: The spell should only be allowed to do what it is described as doing. If it lifts things, according to the description, then it si only able to lift things.

Just because the description doesn't say what it can not do, the player does not have license to assert that the spell can be used for other things.

As an example, though not game related per se: My car allows me to travel from point A to point B. An airplane allows travel from point A to point B. The owners manual of my car doesn't say specifcally that my car can not be used as an airplane, but if I tried to do that, well, we all know what would happen.

Sometimes it is ok to say "no, that doesn't work that way" to a player.

[herrhauptmann]

I too thought that only Harden Air would allow players too freeze people in air. But the player went in a rage when I tried to discuss that. So I just let is slip for that session.

Beyond the various issues I have with WoT (many which I won't discuss here), don't let the players get away with things just because they throw a temper tantrum.
You're DM, and the wording says 'lift,' not hold down. They're trying to duplicate a much higher spell AND skip the saving throw of the spell they're duplicating.

Padan Fain is the dark worshipper who got infected with the evil from that one haunted city, right?

[Jardar]

Beyond the various issues I have with WoT (many which I won't discuss here), don't let the players get away with things just because they throw a temper tantrum.
You're DM, and the wording says 'lift,' not hold down. They're trying to duplicate a much higher spell AND skip the saving throw of the spell they're duplicating.

Padan Fain is the dark worshipper who got infected with the evil from that one haunted city, right?

Yep, he is.

But the problem is that the text says the arms can be used to turn keys and loosen knots etc. I suppose you're right, though. From now on, they can lift or deliver punches with the arms, because that's done in the books. I've found a nice rule for that.

Though, I find it logical that if you can use a force to push upwards, it might as well push downwards.

[KillianHawkeye]

From now on, they can lift or deliver punches with the arms, because that's done in the books. I've found a nice rule for that.

Actually, you need to use tool of air at level 1 or higher to make attacks like that.

[HamHam]

Simply lifting him into air so that he can only flail around uselessly is pretty good already.

Channelers in Wheel of Time are not balanced. At all. You need to either have a party of all channelers, play up the role playing problems (don't draw attention to yourself or an army of whitecloaks will show up and kill you), or start throwing tons of Power-immune enemies at them.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, they didn't even try to balance channelers vs. non-channelers. They decided to stay true to the source material instead.

At least if you make the channelers play as entry-level Aes Sedai and not as wilders, you can make them follow the rules a little better. Even before they take the Three Oaths, they're not allowed to lie or use the Power as a weapon (except for a couple of situations where it's okay). Technically they can, but they'll get in trouble for it.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, they didn't even try to balance channelers vs. non-channelers. They decided to stay true to the source material instead.

At least if you make the channelers play as entry-level Aes Sedai and not as wilders, you can make them follow the rules a little better. Even before they take the Three Oaths, they're not allowed to lie or use the Power as a weapon (except for a couple of situations where it's okay). Technically they can, but they'll get in trouble for it.

Then they can use the same tactic Aes Sedai use in the books, where they run blindly into danger so that their power now counts as self-defense when they use it.