[3.5] Martial Mage Slaying

[Eldariel]

Well, this thread shows up every couple of weeks.

Basically, someone wants to build a Fighter and kill Wizards. Then he's quickly disillusioned by the fact that the higher you go, the more "Wops, I win"-tricks the Wizard has in his arsenal, until he begins to become invulnerable as we approach 20, and easily capable of killing the Fighter-type through any defenses. At this point, some Monk-builds are invariably brought to thread by people who believe Spell Resistance + good saves + touch AC means you kill Wizards, but that's neither here nor now.

So anyways, we had a mage slaying party on this very forum long ago (you can find the thread here) and thanks to severe limitations on the Mage's part, the mage slayers achieved some victories. This little exercise got me thinking just how many contingencies a level 20 martial character can cover; how many of the Wizard's possible defenses can he penetrate and how many of Wizard's possible offenses can he survive, maximizing the Wizard's chance of making a fatal mistake.


So point of this thread in a nutshell: Trying to figure out how many different defenses and offenses employed by a level 20 Wizard can be beaten by 1 single Mage Slaying-specialized level 20 non-caster (including Psionics, Tome of Magic and Meldshaping, trying to keep it Ex here). Well, that, and working on the build I used back then, as I find it to actually have a decent number of bases covered.

The character used in the challenge:

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Dragonborn (Wings) Fire Elf Ranger 2/Targeteer 2/Warblade 6/Eternal Blade 10

BAB: 20/15/10/5
HP: 8+12d10+6d12+1d8+140 = 226
AC: 10 + 10 Dex + 6 armor + 5 shield + 3 deflection + 1 insight = 35
Touch AC: 10 + 10 dex + 5 armor + 3 shield + 3 deflection + 1 insight= 32
Speed: 30', Fly 30' (Good)
Initiative: 10+2+7 = +19

Base saves
Fort: 18 - composite 18+6 Con+5 Res = +29
Ref: 8 - composite 8+10 Dex+5 Int+5 Res-3 Flaw = +25
Will: 5 - composite 5+2 Wis+5 Res=+12 (see Maneuvers, Stance of Alacrity and Ring of Mental Fortitude though)

Str: 16 (22)
Dex: 16 (30)
Con: 14 (22)
Int: 16 (20)
Wis: 8 (14)
Cha: 6

Flaws:
Poor Reflexes
Shaky

Feats:
F) Knowledge Devotion
F) Weapon Focus: Greatbow
1) Point Blank Shot
R) Rapid Shot
T) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Greatbow, Harpoon (Vital Aim as ability)
3) Mage Slayer
T) Hail of Arrows
6) Woodland Archer
W) Blind-Fight
9) Improved Flight
12) Power Attack
15) Martial Study: Shadow Blink
18) Martial Stance: Stance of Alacrity

Skill ranks:
5 Balance
23 Knowledge (Local)
23 Spot
23 Concentration
5 Jump
13 Tumble
11 Climb
5 Hide
2 Spellcraft
1 Sleight of Hand
Speak Language: Celestial

Point It Out
Collector of Stories
Spot the Weak Point
Clarity of Vision
Back on your Feet

Stances:
Blood in the Water
Absolute Steel Stance
Hearing the Air
Stance of Alacrity (on at the start)

Maneuvers:
Mountain Hammer
Wall of Blades
Moment of Perfect Mind
Iron Heart Surge
Iron Heart Endurance
Mind over Body
Douse the Flames
White Raven Tactics
Order Forged From Chaos
Shadow Blink
Diamond Defense
Time Stands Still

Maneuvers Readied:
White Raven Tactics
Iron Heart Surge
Diamond Defense
Time Stands Still
Shadow Blink
Order Forged from Chaos
Moment of Perfect Mind

Active Stance:
Stance of Alacrity

Class Features:
Ranger - Favoured Enemy: Arcanists, Spiritual Connection (CC), Track
Targetteer - Vital Aim, Hail of Arrows, Proficiencies: Longbow, Greatbow, Harpoon
Warblade - Battle Clarity, Weapon Aptitude, Battle Ardor, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge
Eternal Blade - Eternal Training 5/day, Eternal Knowledge (Arcana, The Planes, Nature, Dungeoneering, Religion), Defensive Insight, Tactical Insight, Island in Time

Equipment:
Tome of Dex +3 82.5k
Tome of Con +2 55k
2 Force Elvencraft Composite Greatbow +1 40k
1 Elvencraft Mw. Composite Greatbow (+3) 1.4k
Eager Greatsword of Warning +1 16.3k
50 +1 Magebane Arrows 8.3k
150 Mundane Arrows 20gp
48 Serrenwood Arrows 3.9k
200 Blunt Arrows 20gp
50 Adamantine Arrows 3.3k
Antimagic Torc 25k
Heward's Handy Haversack 2k
Chronocharm of the Grand Master .5k
Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker .5k
Cloak of Resistance +5 25k
Quiver of Ehlonna 1.8k
Ring of Mental Fortitude 110k
Ring of Freedom of Movement and Deflection +3 58k
Belt of Battle, Healing and Giant Strength +6 (as per MiC rules) 49.125k
Thistledown Padded Ghost Ward Armor of Greater Healing +5 60.7
Animated Ghost Ward Mithril Heavy Steel Shield +3 40.2k
Gloves of Dexterity +6 36k
Headband of Intellect +4 16k
Vest of Constitution +6 36k
Boots of Speed 12k
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone 5k
Eyes of Dark Vision, the Eagle and Wisdom +4 35.5k
3 Rod of Cancellation 33k
4 Potion of Enlarge Person .2k
Martial Script of Iron Heart Focus 2250gp

Rules of engagement enabled getting two buffs on, which critically increased the capabilities of the Fighter (I chose Greater Blinking and True Seeing in the last fight, for example) against the Wizard, but for the purposes of this thread we'll work with the Fighter only without any caster support.


First thing to note is that he's got a bunch of things covered quite nicely:
- Invisibility & al.: Spot is naturally +30, thus making "Notice Still Invisible Living Creature" an autosuccess, and pinpointing it within 50%. See also Clarity of Vision. Also access to Blindsense on command.
- Etherealness, Incorporeality & Ironguard: Provided detection, Force-bow autohits these.
- Wind Wall: Force projectiles are unaffected.
- Shapechange, Polymorph and other AC buffs: Thanks to Woodland Archer + Time Stands Still (which can be combined with Island in Time and Belt of Battle for up to 5 full attacks per round), ramping up to +100 to hit and dealing ~300 damage is quite doable. It works out thusly:

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Base bonus is 20 BAB + 10 Dex + 5 Knowledge Devotion + 1 Point Blank Shot + 1 Weapon Focus + 1 Weapon + 1 haste - 2 Rapid Shot - 5 Arrow Swarm = 27+Knowledge Devotion+Mage Bane/whatever. Each attack contains 16 attack rolls (4 base + 1 rapid shot + 2 arrow swarm + 1 haste x2 Splitting) for a total of 80 when novaing with Eternal Training, Island in Time and Belt of Battle to get a total of two Time Stands Stills and one standard full-round attack.

Each miss adds +4 to the following attacks making for 20 misses to get +80 going over +100. This is a standard Eternal Blade Archer flurry. More importantly, a single Time Stands Still (32 attacks) should be capable of killing an AC 100 opponent with 300 HP, assuming 30 damage a piece for all arrows.

- Walls of Force, Prismatic Spheres and the like, while not ignorable, can be removed via. Rods of Cancellation.
- Walls of Stone and the like are trivial to break.
- +19 Initiative is sufficient to at least force a roll vs. Moment of Prescience
- Island in Time enables counteracting Celerity and a wide variety of Mage's tools.
- Iron Heart Surge can be used to remove shaped AMFs and such when they are giving grief; Island in Time enables this at practically any time.
- Extraordinary flight and combat capabilities make dispelling a rather trivial matter.
- Decent saves combined with Evasion, Diamond Defense and Moment of Perfect Mind mean failing saves is unlikely.
- Thanks to Defensive Insight [Eternal Blade] being constantly usable, he can easily maintain 37 Touch AC at all times, and Uncanny Dodge & Blind-Fight ensure he is not flat-footed against invisible attacks.
- He has the ability to learn any Diamond Mind-maneuver via. Eternal Training including Diamond Nightmare Blade to make a probably-lethal melee attack vs. medium AC caster in one standard action, with Pierce Magical Concealment to deal with pesky illusions.
- He has limited teleportation capability in Shadow Blink and good mobility thanks to Boots of Speed mimicking Haste for a 60' fly speed (though only average maneuvrability) along with the ability to take move actions as swift action (Quicksilver Motion) and extra move actions (Belt of Battle) along with the Island in Time lurking nigh'. In other words, he's quite mobile.
- He has Mage Slayer and the capability to generate AMF around him [Anti-Magic Torc], allowing him to fly on top of a caster and effectively locking him out in case he's vulnerable to AMF.
- His bow has range increment of 150' giving him trivially the ability to fire 1500' away (given detection).
- Solid Fog et al. are pre-empted by Ring of Freedom of Movement.


That said, there are glaring weaknesses in the build (that I will strive to cover):
- He has no way of pre-empting Contingencies other than hoping they are worded not to cover him (even assuming no Craft Contingent Spell, this is huge).
- He has no teleportation that ignores Line of Effect, making walls, cages and such a major issue.
- He has no capability of acting through walls, making incorporeality, walls and such a relevant factor.
- He has no capability of detecting things through solid objects, making above things even worse.
- He only has a little over 200 HP without the ability to heal it all in one turn, meaning few trivial maximized Maws of Chaos are lethal.
- He has no defense against Time Stop.
- He lacks defenses beyond Mind Blank against location.
- He obviously has nothing to protect him against Astral Projections, Simulacri, etc. being employed against him, nor the means to locate a caster who doesn't want to be found (and is using the said abilities), nor the means to reach someone who doesn't want to be reached.


Here we go with a take 2:

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Dragonborn (Wings) Fire Elf Ranger 2/Targeteer 1/Barbarian 1/Warblade 6/Eternal Blade 10

BAB: 20/15/10/5
HP: 8+12d10+6d12+1d8+140 = 226
AC: 10 + 10 Dex + 6 armor + 5 shield + 3 deflection + 1 insight = 35
Touch AC: 10 + 10 dex + 5 armor + 3 shield + 3 deflection + 1 insight= 32
Speed: 30', Fly 30' (Good)
Initiative: 10+2+7 = +19

Base saves
Fort: 18 - composite 18+6 Con+5 Res = +29
Ref: 8 - composite 8+10 Dex+5 Int+5 Res-3 Flaw = +25
Will: 5 - composite 5+2 Wis+5 Res=+12 (see Maneuvers, Stance of Alacrity and Ring of Mental Fortitude though)

Str: 16 (22)
Dex: 16 (30)
Con: 14 (22)
Int: 16 (20)
Wis: 8 (14)
Cha: 6

Flaws:
Poor Reflexes
Murky-Eyed

Feats:
F) Knowledge Devotion
F) Quick Draw
1) Point Blank Shot
R) Rapid Shot
T) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Greatbow, Harpoon
3) Mage Slayer
T) Hail of Arrows
6) Woodland Archer
W) Blind-Fight
9) Weapon Focus: Greatbow
12) Power Attack
15) Improved Flight
18) Combat Reflexes

Skill ranks:
5 Balance
23 Knowledge (Local)
23 Spot
23 Concentration
5 Jump
13 Tumble
23 Hide
2 Spellcraft
1 Sleight of Hand
Speak Language: Celestial

Point It Out
Collector of Stories
Spot the Weak Point
Clarity of Vision
Back on your Feet

Stances:
Blood in the Water
Absolute Steel Stance
Hearing the Air
Stance of Alacrity (on at the start)

Maneuvers:
Mountain Hammer
Wall of Blades
Moment of Perfect Mind
Iron Heart Surge
Foehammer
Mind over Body
Douse the Flames
White Raven Tactics
Order Forged From Chaos
Diamond Defense
Time Stands Still

Maneuvers Readied:
White Raven Tactics
Iron Heart Surge
Diamond Defense
Time Stands Still
Mountain Hammer
Order Forged from Chaos
Moment of Perfect Mind

Active Stance:
Stance of Alacrity

Class Features:
Ranger - Favoured Enemy: Arcanists, Spiritual Connection (CC), Track
Targetteer - Hail of Arrows, Proficiencies: Longbow, Greatbow, Harpoon
Barbarian - Spirit Lion Totem, Whirling Frenzy
Warblade - Battle Clarity, Weapon Aptitude, Battle Ardor, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge
Eternal Blade - Eternal Training 5/day, Eternal Knowledge (Arcana, The Planes, Nature, Dungeoneering, Religion), Defensive Insight, Tactical Insight, Island in Time

Equipment:
Tome of Dex +3 82.5k
Tome of Con +2 55k
2 Force Elvencraft Composite Greatbow +1 40k
1 Elvencraft Mw. Composite Greatbow (+3) 1.4k
Eager Guisarme of Warning +1 16.3k
50 +1 Phasing Arrows 8.3k
150 Mundane Arrows 20gp
48 Serrenwood Arrows 3.9k
200 Blunt Arrows 20gp
50 Adamantine Arrows 3.3k
Antimagic Torc 25k
Heward's Handy Haversack 2k
Chronocharm of the Grand Master .5k
Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker .5k
Cloak of Resistance +5 25k
Quiver of Ehlonna 1.8k
Ring of Mental Fortitude 110k
Ring of Freedom of Movement and Deflection +3 58k
Belt of Battle, Healing and Giant Strength +6 (as per MiC rules) 49.125k
Thistledown Padded Ghost Ward Armor of Greater Healing +5 60.7
Animated Ghost Ward Mithril Heavy Steel Shield +3 40.2k
Gloves of Dexterity +6 36k
Headband of Intellect +4 16k
Vest of Constitution +6 36k
Boots of Speed 12k
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone 5k
Eyes of Dark Vision, the Eagle and Wisdom +4 35.5k
3 Rod of Cancellation 33k
4 Potion of Enlarge Person .2k
Martial Script of Iron Heart Focus 2250gp

[Doc Roc]

You may find this a useful resource in some respects. It deals with some of my really esoteric contingencies and tricks for attacking opponents who are.... normally sacrosanct.

This may also be helpful, as it's fairly new tech.

[9mm]

my google-fu can't fight it but there was a really powerful meleer that abused overwhelming attack with stand still to force arcanists to make near impossible checks just to move, and failling would result in AoO's. As well as unable to cast defencively and other tricks that locked them down completely.

[Draz74]

- Wind Wall: Force projectiles are unaffected.

Sorry for the derail, but -- where is the rules justification for this statement, anyway?

[warrl]

The fighter needs to read Sun Tsu's Art of War.

After reading that he will cause the wizard to come to him, at a time and in a place of his choosing, not expecting to meet him there and not expecting to meet *anywhere* what he actually does meet in that place.

The time and place chosen will maximize the fighter's advantages while minimizing his disadvantages.

He will also have studied the wizard, and know what spells the wizard is likely to use (based on the wizard's past practice) in various situations, and have crafted what-the-wizard-expects so that he can easily handle the expected response - while remembering that he almost certainly does not know what contingencies the wizard might have prepared for.

[Doc Roc]

That'll help tons. Tons and tons. :: gently sardonic::

Sun Tsu is an excellent role model.
But some of his advice is less excellent when your opponent can literally see the future. More to the point, the wizard has also read Sun Tsu, probably in the original Chinese, because what else are you gonna do with 10 bonus languages? The wizard, unfortunately, is a better Commander Of Men, is better equipped to deceive, and better laid out to engage in the great secret war-before-war that is knowledge and study.

One of the first things I do as a wizard is try to insure that no one knows my tactica within the game world.
I leave you with a koan.

What is the index of an empty book?
Truth.

[JeminiZero]

- Iron Heart Surge can be used to remove shaped AMFs and such when they are giving grief; Island in Time enables this at practically any time.

I would note that this depends on a reading of IHS that permits you to extinguish the sun. It might be more reasonable to intepret it as "the effect ends with regard to you".

[Douglas]

I would note that this depends on a reading of IHS that permits you to extinguish the sun. It might be more reasonable to intepret it as "the effect ends with regard to you".

No, it doesn't. Antimagic Field is quite clearly a spell. The sun is not a spell, not a condition, and you'll have a tough time convincing most DMs that it's an effect. Thus, even if it is affecting you, Iron Heart Surge can't do anything about it. If you're talking about one of those builds involving a race that's dazzled by sunlight or is otherwise weak to it, a strict RAW reading might allow you to remove the dazzled (or whatever) condition with IHS. Even that, however, would not let you do anything at all about the cause of that condition.

[JeminiZero]

Alright, then lets take a more RAW example. A Warblade and his party walk into a desert to find that it also happens to be a Dead Magic Zone. They are suddenly ambushed by some enemies. The warblade activates IHS against the Dead Magic Zone. What happens?

1) The entire Dead Magic Zone mysteriously dissappears and the Warblade and his party (and their enemies) can start casting normally. Or
2) The DMZ only ends only with respect to the Warblade.

[Hat-Trick]

2.

Although, I'm not sure why he would do that...

[Zaq]

Do you have anything that can cause a dispel effect? Sure, it won't stop a contingency set to "whenever someone other than me moves," but I don't think anything short of Time Stop will handle that. Either way, if you can shave off a few of the wizzie's buffs, that can only be a good thing, right?

[Douglas]

Any one of the following, all of which are compatible with RAW:
A) Nothing. "Effect" is not well defined in general in D&D, and I imagine many DMs would rule that the Dead Magic Zone is not an effect. It is also clearly not a spell or condition, so with this ruling that use of IHS is invalid.
B) The DM rules that, while the DMZ is not an effect, it does impose a condition on the Warblade. That condition ends for the Warblade only.
C) The DM rules that the DMZ is an effect and it ends in its entirety for everyone.

The choice of which of these options to take is completely independent from the one and only RAW option for Antimagic Field:
A) AMF is unquestionably a spell. It ends in its entirety for everyone.

[Doc Roc]

Danger Will Robinson! Danger Danger!

This is an area where even I dare to tread. Generally, we presume that IHS is rationality ruled.

[Eldariel]

Sorry for the derail, but -- where is the rules justification for this statement, anyway?

Since Force makes the arrows into force bolts (pretty much like Magic Missiles) and Wind Wall does nothing about Force-effects...yeah. By RAW, this sorta-maybe doesn't work as Force doesn't make the arrows into non-arrows (well, not literally anyways; it uses the phrase "force projectile") and Wind Wall deflects arrows, but eh, that's something I'm willing to ignore.

I would note that this depends on a reading of IHS that permits you to extinguish the sun. It might be more reasonable to intepret it as "the effect ends with regard to you".

*shrug* I'm just using the less broken interpretation. If you allow Warblades to walk around in AMFs that affect everyone but them, a proper caster multiclass can go Cheater of Mystra.


Also, Tide, Douglas: Thanks.
9mm: This character can actually replicate most of that. He only lacks Stand Still.

[quick_comment]

One way to get around AMF contingencies is to get an AMF on yourself, then use the shadow hand jaunting maneuvers. Their contingencies dont trigger because there is no point that the AMF is close to them. You are 50ft away at one point, and then the next, you are on top of them. Since shadow jaunt is an extraordinary maneuver it can be initiated in an AMF.

[Eldariel]

One way to get around AMF contingencies is to get an AMF on yourself, then use the shadow hand jaunting maneuvers. Their contingencies dont trigger because there is no point that the AMF is close to them. You are 50ft away at one point, and then the next, you are on top of them. Since shadow jaunt is an extraordinary maneuver it can be initiated in an AMF.

Unfortunately though, this means you run straight into their Anticipate Teleport (hour/level level 3 spell) which gives them 3 turns to prepare a death trap in the location you're teleporting to. This is why I try to avoid teleporting anywhere but away from them.

[quick_comment]

Unfortunately though, this means you run straight into their Anticipate Teleport (hour/level level 3 spell) which gives them 3 turns to prepare a death trap in the location you're teleporting to. This is why I try to avoid teleporting anywhere but away from them.

Are maneuvers effected by anticipate teleport? They arent spells, so I dont think so.

Regardless, you can use UMD + Arcane Sight + Disjoin (dragonlance campaign setting) to nuke the anticipate teleport field.

[mregecko]

Just as a thought, do you have any protection against Maze?

I mean, with a 20 Int, your chances of getting out each round are only 25%... That approximately equates to a Time Stop for the mage (1d4 rounds), from an 8th level spell. (This is why my mages always take Maze)

So, without Spell Resistance, that gives the mage a bit of time to throw you into a Maw of Chaos / ForceCage for when you return.

Maybe try to come up with a means of Plane Shifting, so you can return and fight again another day?

-- Gecko

[Eldariel]

Are maneuvers effected by anticipate teleport? They arent spells, so I dont think so.

They have the Teleportation-description, which is what Anticipate Teleportation is mostly based on (The wording is "Any teleportation spell or effect...").

Regardless, you can use UMD + Arcane Sight + Disjoin (dragonlance campaign setting) to nuke the anticipate teleport field.

I'm a bit leery about trying to UMD spells to kill mages. I mean, sure, I could try to UMD Disjunction too to take out all the defenses, but chances are I'll just run into Ring of Spell-Battle/Battlemagic Perception/Ring of Greater Counterspells/Contingency/any number of immediate action-or-faster defenses that pretty much mean I traded a standard action for his immediate action.

The advantage of using actual items with such effects is that they ignore these defenses (well, outside Contingency anyways), and well, make it feel like we're building something else than a gimped mage here.

[JeminiZero]

*shrug* I'm just using the less broken interpretation. If you allow Warblades to walk around in AMFs that affect everyone but them, a proper caster multiclass can go Cheater of Mystra.

Proper Casters already have Extraordinary Spell Aim. But yeah, thats true.

Are maneuvers effected by anticipate teleport? They arent spells, so I dont think so.

The spell description includes Teleport effects. And Shadow Blink explicitly states that you teleport (despite it being an Extraordinary ability), so I would say that yeah, it Shadow Blink is included.

- Shapechange, Polymorph and other AC buffs: Thanks to Woodland Archer + Time Stands Still (which can be combined with Island in Time and Belt of Battle for up to 5 full attacks per round), ramping up to +100 to hit and dealing ~300 damage is quite doable. It works out thusly:

My math might be off but I am counting 4 full attacks per turn (rather than per round, since he is actually generating extra rounds at different points in the initiative count).
-Normal Round: 1 Full attack
-Island in Time: 1 Full Attack
-Belt of Battle: 1 Full Attack
-Time Stands Still: 1 extra Full Attack

- He has the ability to learn any Diamond Mind-maneuver via. Eternal Training including Diamond Nightmare Blade to make a probably-lethal melee attack vs. medium AC caster in one standard action, with Pierce Magical Concealment to deal with pesky illusions.

Incidentally, Pierce Magical Concealment does not seem to be on his feat list, did you leave it out somewhere. Sorry if it all seems a bit nitpicky, I'm just going through the numbers to make sure that they add up.

[Eldariel]

My math might be off but I am counting 4 full attacks per turn (rather than per round, since he is actually generating extra rounds at different points in the initiative count).
-Normal Round: 1 Full attack
-Island in Time: 1 Full Attack
-Belt of Battle: 1 Full Attack
-Time Stands Still: 1 extra Full Attack

Eternal Training allows gaining Time Stands Still a second time after you've used it, for the 5th.

Incidentally, Pierce Magical Concealment does not seem to be on his feat list, did you leave it out somewhere. Sorry if it all seems a bit nitpicky, I'm just going through the numbers to make sure that they add up.

I noticed that too. I guess I dropped it, finding it superfluous. It was in the earlier draft, but this was the more specialized version I used later on. I should probably work towards adding it back.

[quick_comment]

This needs DM adjucation - does AMF + shadow blink negate the effect of anticipate teleport? The AMF ought to protect you from it.

[quick_comment]

Eternal Training allows gaining Time Stands Still a second time after you've used it, for the 5th.

Dont forget white raven tactics for a 6th.

[Eldariel]

Dont forget white raven tactics for a 6th.

I don't use the reading that you can WRT yourself for an extra action; that means Ruby Knight Vindicator can take Time Stop for however many Turn Attempts he has whenever he want around level 10.

[Doc Roc]

Eld, I have mages that can do very similar things at 14th or so, and you've seen some of them.

I respect you for not using WRT, however, and think it is wise.