Tome of Battle build questions...

[13_CBS]

I've been thumbing through ToB for the first time lately, and I have some build questions...

Assuming that the only available sources are Core and ToB:

1) What's a good unarmed Swordsage build? The local meme answer for "I can has monk?" is "lol unarmed Swordsage", so what's a good unarmed Swordsage build that does what the Monk was supposed to do: delivering supreme unarmed beatdowns? I'd like to see a straight Swordsage build if possible.

2) I've noticed that the Diamond Mind school has a maneuver that can make an opponent flatfooted if you beat the Concentration check. Are there any good builds that use ToB material to boost or help you to make Sneak Attacks?

[AstralFire]

1) What's a good unarmed Swordsage build? The local meme answer for "I can has monk?" is "lol unarmed Swordsage", so what's a good unarmed Swordsage build that does what the Monk was supposed to do: delivering supreme unarmed beatdowns? I'd like to see a straight Swordsage build if possible.

Swordsage 1: Adaptive Style
At some point pick up Martial Study for Iron Heart Surge.
Swordsage 20.

That's... about it. You can seriously optimize a ToB melee, but you really don't have to if you want to make someone relevant in most games.

[kamikasei]

1) What's a good unarmed Swordsage build? The local meme answer for "I can has monk?" is "lol unarmed Swordsage", so what's a good unarmed Swordsage build that does what the Monk was supposed to do: delivering supreme unarmed beatdowns? I'd like to see a straight Swordsage build if possible.

I think you might be missing something - when people say "unarmed Swordsage" they don't mean "a Swordsage who is unarmed", they mean the version from the "adaptation" section who trades armour proficiency for the Monk's unarmed damage progression.

[13_CBS]

Swordsage 1: Adaptive Style
At some point pick up Martial Study for Iron Heart Surge.
Swordsage 20.

That's... about it. You can seriously optimize a ToB melee, but you really don't have to if you want to make someone relevant in most games.

Hmm...what about schools and maneuvers? Are some schools inferior to others for unarmed beatsticks? What about specific maneuvers? Good feats? Good feat combinations?

I think you might be missing something - when people say "unarmed Swordsage" they don't mean "a Swordsage who is unarmed", they mean the version from the "adaptation" section who trades armour proficiency for the Monk's unarmed damage progression.

Oh. Huh...

So you pretty much need to use that adaptation to make a decent unarmed Swordsage?

[AstralFire]

Hmm...what about schools and maneuvers? Are some schools inferior to others for unarmed beatsticks? What about specific maneuvers? Good feats? Good feat combinations?



Oh. Huh...

So you pretty much need to use that adaptation to make a decent unarmed Swordsage?

Yeah, but... it's not a hard adaptation to make. IUS and switch Wis to Armor with Monk's AC.

[kamikasei]

So you pretty much need to use that adaptation to make a decent unarmed Swordsage?

Not necessarily. You could try relying on Diamond Mind manuevers for damage, say. It's just that that's what people are talking about when they say Unarmed Swordsage. Otherwise it's like, though not so bad as, building an unarmed combatant using Fighter - you might be able to do a bunch of the tricks, but you're lacking in damage output.

[13_CBS]

Righto.

What about a sneak-attacking Swordsage, using Diamond Mind and Shadow Hand maneuvers/stances? How many Rogue levels should one take before switching over to Swordsage, or vice-versa? Any good maneuvers to look out for? Any other good schools aside from DM and SH?

[kamikasei]

Personally my inclination would always be to go straight Swordsage over a Rogue/Swordsage sneak attack build, but that's just taste, really. If it's a monklike unarmed martial artist you're after, you probably want a mix of Diamond Mind (for damage), Tiger Claw (for attacks), and Setting Sun (for shenanigans).

[AstralFire]

Sudden Leap from Tiger Claw is great at low levels for mobility, and the Scent stance from the same is amazing for hunter characters. Also has some powerful, fast strikes.

Giant-Killing Stance or w/e from Setting Sun is the best low-level combat stance if you're a Small character.

Setting Sun in general synchronizes well with Unarmed and has some pretty useful stuff, but it's not high on the Sneaky.

Desert Wind has an immediate action short-range teleport which is pretty good at mid-levels and has a flying charge and some area attacks, which are good for mixing up what you can handle. It's the least important to your build, however, as Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind will do most of the damage.

I'd go straight Swordsage. There is rarely a need to start multiclassing mumbo jumbo with ToB.

[The Rose Dragon]

If you will multiclass, I suggest either 1 or 2 levels, depending on whether you round down or up. 1 if you round up when determining initiator levels and 2 if you round down.

[woodenbandman]

Really you can't go wrong with a Swordsage 20. Depends if you want to be a sneaky ninja swordsage, a he-man hairy thunderer smashy swordsage, a mystical kung fu genius swordsage, or any other type of swordsage.

I suggest Diamond Mind and Setting Sun, which are my 2 favorite, but you could just as easily go Stone Dragon or Shadow Hand.

[JeminiZero]

Righto.
What about a sneak-attacking Swordsage, using Diamond Mind and Shadow Hand maneuvers/stances? How many Rogue levels should one take before switching over to Swordsage, or vice-versa? Any good maneuvers to look out for? Any other good schools aside from DM and SH?

Here's the thing. At level 20, with careful planning, your swordsage has enough maneuvers known to get the capstone maneuvers of 5 of his 6 schools. You don't need to focus that much. Shop around for the best maneuvers form each school, and plan out a progression from there.

There are some rather specific combos that a pure swordsage can pull off, but the only one I can think of right now is starting off with Combat Rhythm from the Stormguard Warrior feat, leading into that L8 shadowhand maneuver that turns you incorporeal (and hence make touch attacks for melee attacks) and cranking out lots of attacks on both rounds with times stand still/Raging Mongoose.

[FinalJustice]

Do not ever forget the Shadow Blade Feat. With it, you can apply your dexterity bonus instead your str bonus to your unarmed strikes. Getting rid from Str dependency is always a good thing, as your Dex now goes for Attack (you will obviously want Weapon Finesse), Damage, AC and Reflexes.

[NEO|Phyte]

Do not ever forget the Shadow Blade Feat. With it, you can apply your dexterity bonus instead your str bonus to your unarmed strikes. Getting rid from Str dependency is always a good thing, as your Dex now goes for Attack (you will obviously want Weapon Finesse), Damage, AC and Reflexes.

You get your Dex AND your Str, so you don't want to go dumping str. It's also limited to a subset of weapons and requires you to be in a Shadow Hand stance.

[quick_comment]

I think you can stick one or two levels of warblade into the build. This gets you more maneuers known, and means you can get 9th level maneuvers from all the swordsage schools.

[Meat Shield]

Seriously, swordsage can do anything you want except for ranged combatant. I love flashy, mobility based swordsages, so lots of Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand with speed boost items, but a Diamond Mind SS can be super deadly.

Don't forget to look at Master of Nine as a PrC. But wait until 16th level to jump in to make sure you can get as many high level maneuvers as possible with all those maneuvers you get from the class.

[AstralFire]

Here's the thing. At level 20, with careful planning, your swordsage has enough maneuvers known to get the capstone maneuvers of 5 of his 6 schools. You don't need to focus that much. Shop around for the best maneuvers form each school, and plan out a progression from there.

There are some rather specific combos that a pure swordsage can pull off, but the only one I can think of right now is starting off with Combat Rhythm from the Stormguard Warrior feat, leading into that L8 shadowhand maneuver that turns you incorporeal (and hence make touch attacks for melee attacks) and cranking out lots of attacks on both rounds with times stand still/Raging Mongoose.

I don't know about anyone else, but it's kind of nice to be able to take a class to 20, say you got cool and useful stuff every level, and there was no point at which you would have gotten the exact same cool and useful stuff plus more cool and useful stuff by taking a prestige.

[quick_comment]

Dual boost + diamond nightmare blade or time stands still is pretty neat. You can use two desert wind boosts (inferno blade and the 2d6 version) and you get 5d6+40 added to each attack. With DNB, thats 4[weapon damage+power attack+40]+5d6+other variable damage, and with time stands still and raging mongoose, thats 5d6+40 added to however many attacks you get.

[Hunter Noventa]

Don't forget the Superior Unarmed Strike feat from ToB, which boosts your unarmed damage by 5 levels if you're monk/unarmed swordsage. And SNap Kick, which gets you an extra attack when not using manuvers.

I played the Unaremd variant swordsage once in a silly game. i eventually died due to a botched save, but while she lived she was pretty much awesome incarnate. Leaping from roof to roof, punching people's torsos out, stuff like that. I focused on Tiger Claw, Shadow Hand and Diammond Mind for the most part, using Stone Dragon mainly to get past DR.

[AstralFire]

Don't forget the Superior Unarmed Strike feat from ToB, which boosts your unarmed damage by 5 levels if you're monk/unarmed swordsage. And SNap Kick, which gets you an extra attack when not using manuvers.

I played the Unaremd variant swordsage once in a silly game. i eventually died due to a botched save, but while she lived she was pretty much awesome incarnate. Leaping from roof to roof, punching people's torsos out, stuff like that. I focused on Tiger Claw, Shadow Hand and Diammond Mind for the most part, using Stone Dragon mainly to get past DR.

Snap Kick works even with maneuvers, actually.

Superior Unarmed Strike is only worth it if you're not going past level 15 (it doesn't increase you above effective level 20) and doing a build focused on crazyinsane increases to your unarmed strike damage, since they're mostly mediocre until you start making things go pear-shaped with size increases.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Snap Kick works even with maneuvers, actually.

Superior Unarmed Strike is only worth it if you're not going past level 15 (it doesn't increase you above effective level 20) and doing a build focused on crazyinsane increases to your unarmed strike damage, since they're mostly mediocre until you start making things go pear-shaped with size increases.

SS 15/Mo9 5 or something is pretty good, though. Especially since few games get past 15 anyways. Keep in mind that you don't have to go crazy to want as much damage as possible out of your weapons. One size increase +20th level is 4d6 base damage. Scaling after that is just gravy.

[Myrmex]

Another neat thing to note- you can switch lower level known maneuvers out for higher level known maneuvers as you level.