[3.5] How balanced are Thri-Keen?

[Brauron]

How balanced are Thri-Keen for their LA? I'm thinking about playing one in an up-coming one-shot.

[Fax Celestis]

Well, depending on your version, they're anywhere between 3rd and 5th level. The version found in the XPH is the most frequently used and is rather balanced for its cost.

[Brauron]

Thanks. I'll have to look into the XPH version.

[PinkysBrain]

Thri-Kreen aren't the problem ... MWF is the problem, the feat chain is hopelessly overpowered.

[Irreverent Fool]

Thri-Kreen aren't the problem ... MWF is the problem, the feat chain is hopelessly overpowered.

Once again we come to the "it's okay for a spellcaster to kill something with one spell but it's not ok for a fighter-type to kill something with one full attack" argument.

obnoxious
sig

[Draz74]

Thri-Kreen can be pretty ridiculously overpowered if you know what you're doing with them.

Thri-Kreen Warblade (or Swordsage). Max Concentration and Jump. Fight with four kukris, MWF, the Blood in the Water Stance, and whenever you can't use a full attack, use a Nightmare Blade or a Jump-based Strike. Yikes. This general build is a great melee combatant even with a normal race (like Human), using two kukris; adding two more kukris and a +30 bonus to Jump checks just gets crazy, even with the RHD and LA that slow you down.

[Brauron]

Ah, thanks, but I don't play with an optimization-heavy group, and we don't use ToB. I was thinking I'd make a Ranger...

See, I like using more unusual races because I find it presents some fun roleplaying opportunities, but my characters are sometimes met with skepticism by my friends, who are sometimes uneasy about monster races.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd prefer the nonpsionic version in MM2 and Shining South. It still has 2 HD, but only gets a +1 LA compared to the XPH version's +2 LA. That makes it quite a bit more playable, and all you lose out on are the psi-like abilities and racial powerpoints.

As far as how balanced the race is, even if you use the lower ECL nonpsionic version, you'll be pigeonholed into one of the weaker classes. It's at least three levels behind if you go with a primary spellcaster, and everyone should know nonspellcasters are underpowered as it is. As a martial adept it could be useful, but you'd lose out on all those arms using standard action maneuvers. I'd probably go with either dual-wielding two-handed weapons with Oversized TWF and Xing Mongoose, or make a Soulbow with a dip in Monk or Swordsage and Zen Archery, using Multiweapon Fighting with Mind Arrows.

Improved and Greater Multiweapon Fighting are not overpowered. This is especially true considering they require a +9 and +15 BAB respectively, compared to the +6 and +11 required by Improved and Greater TWF.

[aje8]

Thri-Keen are not overpowered. LA is by defination not overpowered because it's never right for casters to take LA and if the LA is making a melee character significantly more powerful, that's a good thing.

Yes, that's a slight exageration but for the most part it's true.

[PId6]

Thri-Keen are not overpowered. LA is by defination not overpowered because it's never right for casters to take LA and if the LA is making a melee character significantly more powerful, that's a good thing.

Yes, that's a slight exageration but for the most part it's true.

Black Ethergaunt: LA +4, +20 Int, and ability to cast spells like a 17th level wizard, not to mention a whole set of other broken abilities. 9th level spells at 5th level, anyone?

[NEO|Phyte]

Black Ethergaunt: LA +4, +20 Int, and ability to cast spells like a 17th level wizard, not to mention a whole set of other broken abilities. 9th level spells at 5th level, anyone?

I suspect you're forgetting the racial hit dice. You don't get to ignore those.

[PId6]

I suspect you're forgetting the racial hit dice. You don't get to ignore those.

Whoops, okay, still, level 20 for 17th level wizard spells and +20 Int is totally worth it.

[FMArthur]

LA and racial hit dice are usually bad, but what makes them bad is that they get increasingly worse in comparison to class features that increase in power. If you're following a class that just gets more class features without much increase in their power later on, then it becomes more worthwhile. In fact, it is a giant boost in power early on that is only mitigated later; thri-kreen can be preposterously strong at low levels when melee combat can still be relied upon as an effecient means of dealing with threats. And two extra arms can often simply double the power of any two-weapon fighter. I know I'd take a PrC that was just three dead levels followed by a flat "you make twice as many attacks" class feature if I was going in that direction anyway.

[Kelpstrand]

Once again we come to the "it's okay for a spellcaster to kill something with one spell but it's not ok for a fighter-type to kill something with one full attack" argument.

I know fighters can't get nice things, I make sure my homebrew give fighters nice things, or use homebrew that does, but too often people think the solution to save or die spells is to make it so that Fighters kill in one full attack, that's a terrible answer, a spell requires a failed saving throw, and often is subject to a host of immunities. A Pouncing Barbarian does 400 damage on each attack of many, and has an AB that makes it an auto hit against all monsters in the MM.

Fighters can have nice things without those nice things being "you die if I can ever make a single attack on you that hits."

MWFing giving a character enough attacks to kill in one full attack is a problem, because AB is usually higher than, or 3-4 points lower than AC, but saves are often just too high for monsters to fail more than 10-30% of the time.

Wizards can't kill with one spell, they can kill with 2-3 spells, so fighters need to not be able to kill everything in one full attack.

Improved and Greater Multiweapon Fighting are not overpowered. This is especially true considering they require a +9 and +15 BAB respectively, compared to the +6 and +11 required by Improved and Greater TWF.

Actually, yes it is overpowered, in some select screwed up ways. Normally, like a Thri-Keen using a weapon in 4 hands, is not a big deal.

It's the fact that it doesn't limit your "offhand" weapons to your number of hands, so it's technically possible to full attack weapon on each hand, boot blade on each foot, elbow blades on each elbow, armor spikes, shield spikes on your buckler, knee blades, and just in case your DM hasn't said no yet, you can fish out hair blades, and tie one to each hair on you head for another few thousand attacks.

It's only the wording of MWF that's the problem, not people fighting with X hands.

Black Ethergaunt: LA +4, +20 Int, and ability to cast spells like a 17th level wizard, not to mention a whole set of other broken abilities. 9th level spells at 5th level, anyone?

You forgot the 20 racial HD to go with it. Not overpowered for a level 25 character.

[ericgrau]

Once again we come to the "it's okay for a spellcaster to kill something with one spell but it's not ok for a fighter-type to kill something with one full attack" argument.

obnoxious
sig

I don't believe he said it was ok for a caster to kill something with one spell. I don't buy the argument of "Casters can do anything so feel free to allow any non-caster you want no matter how much stronger he is than other non-casters."

Last I checked a well built but cheese free caster has roughly a 50% chance for a spell to succeed on a target, give or take 10-20% depending on target's power, which save is targetted, etc. So it takes 2 rounds & 2 spells, maybe more or less depending on the challenge. But it wouldn't matter even if casters got wish as a free action, at will, with no xp cost at level 10. That's still no reason to allow anything in the world. That'd just be a reason for the DM to watch the caster for abuse ("hey wait, that ability description doesn't actually say you can do that") and/or nerf him.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I don't believe he said it was ok for a caster to kill something with one spell. I don't buy the argument of "Casters can do anything so feel free to allow any non-caster you want no matter how much stronger he is than others."

Last I checked a well built but cheese free caster has roughly a 50% chance for a spell to succeed on a target, give or take 10-20% depending on target's power, which save is targetted, etc. So it takes 2 rounds & 2 spells, maybe more or less depending on the challenge. But it wouldn't matter even if casters got wish as a free action, at will, with no xp cost at level 10. That's still no reason to allow anything in the world. That'd just be a reason for the DM to watch the caster for abuse ("hey wait, that ability description doesn't actually say you can do that") and/or nerf him.

Enervation. What are these 'saves' you speak of?

[Cieyrin]

Thri-kreens with a pair of gythka works pretty well, I'd say. 1d10/1d10 double weapons are pretty hot.

DMs letting you run around like Zolo the Swordsman w/ blades coming from every joint is only bringing pain on himself for letting a character roll that many dice on a full attack, especially given how many of them are gonna miss, since most of the weapons mentioned in Kelp's post have inherent penalties to their attack to help ensure that they aren't going to hit, anyways. What I worry about more is if they get the feat Multitasking, which is admittedly difficult to get on a Thri-kreen w/ their Int penalty, but more actions per round is always powerful.

[aje8]

Look, I'd rather not turn this into a casters are overpowered argument.

BUT one quick thing. Save-or-dies are not and never will be the best spells, they're pretty good if you pump the save DCs ect. but for the most part they aren't sepectacular. The best spells are and have always been spells that do stuff on a failed or save or even don't allow a save. Black Tentacles, Solid Fog ect are the best spells.

I'm not talking about getting cheesetastic here..... casters are just so much better than melee, espically non-ToB melee, that they can play their Half-Minatour Feral Fighter using every splatbook imaginable and with a billion dips. My CORE Wizard 20 will be more powerful every time.

Though your right it's not grounds to allow anything per se, it is grounds to allow anything printed so far.

[quick_comment]

Thri-keen are also awesome with the tiger claw maneuvers, with their massive jump checks

[Kelpstrand]

Enervation. What are these 'saves' you speak of?

But if you spend a standard action and a spell slot to change their saves from 50% chance of success to 35% chance of success that's really similar to casting the spell twice when they have a 50% chance.

It's better in some ways, like it might be a lower spell level than the save or X, it might also be worse, in that they could be immune to it, or you could miss the RTA (really only for high touch AC monsters, which are few) Or you could hit them, but they roll high on their one roll.

Enervation + save spell is good, but by no means actually fits the "casters kill everything in one round" complaint.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

But if you spend a standard action and a spell slot to change their saves from 50% chance of success to 35% chance of success that's really similar to casting the spell twice when they have a 50% chance.

It's better in some ways, like it might be a lower spell level than the save or X, it might also be worse, in that they could be immune to it, or you could miss the RTA (really only for high touch AC monsters, which are few) Or you could hit them, but they roll high on their one roll.

Enervation + save spell is good, but by no means actually fits the "casters kill everything in one round" complaint.

I meant Enervation+death. The spell applies penalties to everything, not just saves, and works well with metamagic.

[Alteran]

Enervation + save spell is good, but by no means actually fits the "casters kill everything in one round" complaint.

Not at all. As a 4th level spell, Enervation is a prime candidate for metamagic abuse. Arcane Thesis (Enervation) combined with Easy Metamagic (Twin Spell) lets you have a Twinned Split Empowered Enervation as a 9th level spell. That's 4 rays, each dealing 1d4 * 1.5 negative levels. That averages out to 15 negative levels if they all hit. With a Greater Rod of Maximize Spell or Sudden Maximize, it's 16 + 2d4, or an average of 21 negative levels. That kills anything with 21 or fewer HD without a save, and it can be done as low as level 17.

Edit: I was wrong, you can actually have a Twinned Split Maximzed Enervation as a 9th level spell. With a Greater Rod of Empower Spell or Sudden Empower that gets the same end result, but if you buy the rod then you're spending less money. You also inflict 16 negative levels with just the base spell, so along with a Quickened Maximized Enervation (spell level 9) you can kill anything with 20 HD or fewer, no items required.

[Brauron]

It's amazing to see where my one little question has led.

[Kelpstrand]

I meant Enervation+death. The spell applies penalties to everything, not just saves, and works well with metamagic.

Right, and how is the creature dieing? Either you crippled the creature to make it easier for someone else to kill it, and did the Wizard job well. Or you did an Enervation to set up your kill spell, in which case, you took more than one round and had to deal with multiple potential defenses in order to get it:

Touch AC/Immunity to negative energy or death effects/making the save even after the penalty/being immune to the spell being used to kill.

As such, a Fighter that pretty much auto hits like most well built fighters do, and who does enough damage in one round to kill most anything, is in fact a problem for the game.

Not at all. As a 4th level spell, Enervation is a prime candidate for metamagic abuse.

Yes Enervation can be part of a screwed up metamagic abuse involving Arcane Thesis and every other reduction you can find. So can Ray of Stupidity. So can Orb of Fire.

That's a problem with metamagic: (really crappy if used as it should, really awesome if made to not effect spell levels)

It has no bearing whatsoever on the fact that Wizards don't get to go around killing things in one round unless they optimize for specific super cheesy tactics, and non casters can do the same thing, it's called Shocktrooper Pouncing charges.

It doesn't change the fact that 90% of caster builds can't have even a very good chance of killing something in one round, much less an assured, and so the vast majority of the time, in a non cheesy game, it would be bad if the fighter did elevendy billion damage on a full attack.

[Lycanthromancer]

Right, and how is the creature dieing?

If (NegativeLevels == CreatureHD)
..Creature = DEATH
Else (Creature = GIMPED)
EndIf

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Actually, yes it is overpowered, in some select screwed up ways. Normally, like a Thri-Keen using a weapon in 4 hands, is not a big deal.

It's the fact that it doesn't limit your "offhand" weapons to your number of hands, so it's technically possible to full attack weapon on each hand, boot blade on each foot, elbow blades on each elbow, armor spikes, shield spikes on your buckler, knee blades, and just in case your DM hasn't said no yet, you can fish out hair blades, and tie one to each hair on you head for another few thousand attacks.

It's only the wording of MWF that's the problem, not people fighting with X hands.

Overpowered means potentially game-breaking when used as intended. If an exploitation of its poor wording has potential of making a character overpowered, then the feat is broken in that it needs to be fixed, not that it needs to be rebalanced. In that case, you won't even get away with any of those shenanigans if your DM is any semblance of competent and it is not even an issue. Multiweapon Fighting is not overpowered, and exploiting its poor wording should never even work in an actual game.

[FMArthur]

It has no bearing whatsoever on the fact that Wizards don't get to go around killing things in one round unless they optimize for specific super cheesy tactics, and non casters can do the same thing, it's called Shocktrooper Pouncing charges.

It doesn't change the fact that 90% of caster builds can't have even a very good chance of killing something in one round, much less an assured, and so the vast majority of the time, in a non cheesy game, it would be bad if the fighter did elevendy billion damage on a full attack.

Wizards can do stupidly powerful AOE encounter-enders, though. A single casting of Color Spray, Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud, Evard's Black Tentacles, or others at the appropriate levels is enough for the wizard to want to waste spell slots on conjuring a lawn chair and a drink for the rest of the battle. Worse yet, if the beatstick does not have a properly optimized build, it can be outdone at its own damned job by summoning spells!

I will admit that it can be a fine line to walk - there is a difference between effective build strategy and abuse of the system, but if you're going to be a fighter-type, you usually have to specialize to not suck; you should be good at what you do if it's the only thing you do.

[Kelpstrand]

If NegativeLevels == CreatureHD
..Creature = DEATH
Else Creature = GIMPED
EndIf

Once again:
If Enervation -> Negativelevels == CreatureHD
...Creature == Not even worth a 4th level slot ///They asterisk the weirdest things///
If Creature == Gimped
...Wizard == Not killing in one round.

Wizards can do stupidly powerful AOE encounter-enders, though. A single casting of Color Spray, Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud, Evard's Black Tentacles, or others at the appropriate levels is enough for the wizard to want to waste spell slots on conjuring a lawn chair and a drink for the rest of the battle. Worse yet, if the beatstick does not have a properly optimized build, it can be outdone at its own damned job by summoning spells!

And all AoE encounter enders still require mop up by fighters, or by spending more spells. (Except Color Spray, but Fighters at level 1 are casting "Death, no Save" anyway.) And all of those except EBT require saving throws, which once again, are about a 50-50 bargain. EBT has it's own set of problems, since by the time you get it, most creatures are large or larger and have Str+BAB greater than CL+4, and so they have a greater than 50% chance to just not be grappled, in which case all you did was cast "Difficult Terrain."

No one is saying that Fighters get nice things here. The point is that it's really easy to overcompensate on giving Fighters nice but specific things, so that every fight either involves the Fighter being a badass while everyone else watches, or a monster that defeats the Fighters one trick, and the Fighter still has no nice things.

If you just give the Fighter infinite damage on a charge or full attack, all you did was say that 50% of monster have to not ever be full attacked or charged for the game to have any meaning.

[CockroachTeaParty]

I played a Thri-Kreen warblade in a game once. It was good times. The +30 to jump pretty much makes Tiger Claw the best. The 'jump as a swift action' maneuver in particular was delicious.

Unfortunately, with a Charisma of 4 and an Intelligence of 7, I was not the most sociable of creatures. My fellow players referred to me as 'the jump check,' rather than my character's actual name. This... hurt me.

[Lycanthromancer]

Once again:
If Enervation -> Negativelevels == CreatureHD
...Creature == Not even worth a 4th level slot ///They asterisk the weirdest things///
If Creature == Gimped
...Wizard == Not killing in one round.

And yet even if you ain'tent dead, having more than half your levels being taken down pretty much destroys any credibility you might have as an actual threat. In comes the wizard's familiar to mop up the encounter. (Hyperbole? Maybe.)

And all AoE encounter enders still require mop up by fighters, or by spending more spells. (Except Color Spray, but Fighters at level 1 are casting "Death, no Save" anyway.)

That's what insta-minion spells are for. Like animate dead or planar binding. Spend those slots ahead of time and you can have all the minions you like.

And even if it takes more than a single spell slot to obliterate an encounter, wizards have all the spells they could possibly use at or before level 10 in any case.

It's easy enough to take down several days' worth of encounters without even using up half of a core-only wizard's higher level spells. Or by simply using some prep-work to make yourself a whirlwind of destruction beforehand and end encounters without using ANY of the current day's resources.

And all of those except EBT require saving throws, which once again, are about a 50-50 bargain. EBT has it's own set of problems, since by the time you get it, most creatures are large or larger and have Str+BAB greater than CL+4, and so they have a greater than 50% chance to just not be grappled, in which case all you did was cast "Difficult Terrain."

Remember that you can choose which save you want to target (assuming you want to target a save at all). Most big dumb beasties have horrific Will saves, for instance. Or terrible touch ACs.

That's one of the best (read: worst) things about wizards: they can zero in on your most glaring weakness and exploit it for all they're worth.

No one is saying that Fighters get nice things here. The point is that it's really easy to overcompensate on giving Fighters nice but specific things, so that every fight either involves the Fighter being a badass while everyone else watches, or a monster that defeats the Fighters one trick, and the Fighter still has no nice things.

Quite correct.

If you just give the Fighter infinite damage on a charge or full attack, all you did was say that 50% of monster have to not ever be full attacked or charged for the game to have any meaning.

Damage really isn't why fighters are so piss-poor. They're GOOD at dealing damage. Unfortunately, that's really ALL they're good for.