Looking for Orc's lore 3.5

[Laharal]

Hi again: In Races of Destiny Humans, half-orcs and half-elve lives and lore are deeply detailled. The same thing stands for Raptorans and Elves in Races of the Wild. Is there a 3.5 book that expands on Orcs' society, religion etc etc as deeply as the other mentionned races? (That excludes the small part in monster manual)

Many thanks.

[Gnorman]

Hi again: In Races of Destiny Humans, half-orcs and half-elve lives and lore are deeply detailled. The same thing stands for Raptorans and Elves in Races of the Wild. Is there a 3.5 book that expands on Orcs' society, religion etc etc as deeply as the other mentionned races? (That excludes the small part in monster manual)

Many thanks.

Eesh. Don't think so. Really makes you wish there was a goblinoid/orc Races of book, huh?

Races of Faerun has a small section on Orcs, but it's setting-specific. Still might help.

[Lorien077]

Your best bet is to make some up, or pick up some orc lore that you like that's appropriate to whatever setting you're in. Might I ask which setting?

[Laharal]

Custom setting of a friend, details undisclosed... wanted to know more about orc background and way of ''organizing'' themselves... thanks for asking though ;)

[Ganurath]

You can get all the data you need from the following sources:

Elven Origin Myths in Races of the Wild: Strong ties to orc legends, such as the epic battle between Corellon and Gruumsh.

Orc entry in the Monster Manual: Provides basic cultural data.

Eye of Gruumsh PrC in Complete Warrior: Wartime cultural data.

Gruumsh's profile in Complete Divine: Bits of B and C.

[Zeta Kai]

Considering how commonly orcs are used in the game, a book that focused on them would've been nice to have. I mean, their progeny (half-orcs) are a default PC race, for blank's sake. A book about orcs & goblinoids would've been sweet. The drow got a book all to themselves, & they're just a sub-race (& not a spectacular one, at that). Orcs got the shaft, I'm afraid, & I fear that players did, as well.

[RTGoodman]

There was a homebrew project about this on the WotC boards a while back. It was called Races of the Horde (originally Races of Savagery), and covered Goblins, Hobgoblins, Bugbears, and Orcs. Unfortunately, I don't know if it ever got far, and the WotC forums are down for a week now anyway.

[Gnorman]

There was a homebrew project about this on the WotC boards a while back. It was called Races of the Horde (originally Races of Savagery), and covered Goblins, Hobgoblins, Bugbears, and Orcs. Unfortunately, I don't know if it ever got far, and the WotC forums are down for a week now anyway.

If it was done by the same people who did Tome of Fiends and Tome of Necromancy, it's probably better than a WotC sourcebook anyway. But I don't know if it is.

[Kosjsjach]

If it was done by the same people who did Tome of Fiends and Tome of Necromancy, it's probably better than a WotC sourcebook anyway. But I don't know if it is.

I don't think it is, otherwise it'd be here. Tis a shame, those are awesome.

[bosssmiley]

Complete Book of Humanoids or The Orcs of Thar. The mechanics are convertible, the fluff probably usable as-is.

• There's also John Wicks Orcs RPG, which includes many educational stories of the deeds of legendary orc culture hero Bashthraka.
• Or there's Paizo's Classic Monsters Revisited, which gives Orcs a weirdly nihilistic culture which is a nice inversion of Blizzard's proud warrior race Orcs.
• Scott of OD&D Wilderlands / World of Thool / Ordained Domain of Vogoles turned Orcs into a bizarre culture of dropsical cult warriors ruled by a matriarchy. His take was definitely not PG-13.

[kamikasei]

Eesh. Don't think so. Really makes you wish there was a goblinoid/orc Races of book, huh?

Wasn't it our very own Mark Hall who was working on such a thing? As I recall, Wizards didn't accept his pitch, so he was going to self-publish, third-party, or put it up online. I don't recall it ever being completed, though.

[Gnorman]

Wasn't it our very own Mark Hall who was working on such a thing? As I recall, Wizards didn't accept his pitch, so he was going to self-publish, third-party, or put it up online. I don't recall it ever being completed, though.

That would basically be awesome.

I second the suggestion earlier of checking out some older edition sourcebooks, too: TSR was real heavy on the fluff during the 2nd edition years. Wizards is good with crunch and mechanics, but they lack that ineffable hint of fluffy goodness that those older books have.

Granted, some books are better than others. Races of Stone, for example, was awesome. Races of Destiny was fairly nondescript. Don't even get me started on Races of the Wild (I hate elves).

[kamikasei]

Don't even get me started on Races of the Wild (I hate elves).

You can't hate elves. Everyone loves elves. It says so in all the books.

[JellyPooga]

Don't even get me started on Races of the Wild (I hate elves).

I liked Races of the Wild...if only for the Halfling material. I really liked the addition of Dallah Thaun to Yondalla.

On the subject of Orcs though, Forgotten Realms has a wealth of material for different Orc cultures, from the Orog society of the Underdark to the Grey Orc mountain tribes.

[Eloel]

RotW was a good book. Raptoran ftw. Also, Orcs? ORCS? You mean the savage race that has been released for XP to other races. Who needs info on that?

[Gnorman]

RotW was a good book. Raptoran ftw. Also, Orcs? ORCS? You mean the savage race that has been released for XP to other races. Who needs info on that?

Me?

Look at it this way: orcs despise elves with a burning, seething fury that never stops, never slows, and never gives up.

That alone makes me love orcs so much. So. Much.

[Cieyrin]

There was a homebrew project about this on the WotC boards a while back. It was called Races of the Horde (originally Races of Savagery), and covered Goblins, Hobgoblins, Bugbears, and Orcs. Unfortunately, I don't know if it ever got far, and the WotC forums are down for a week now anyway.

Y'mean this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...=1#post4067852

Bhu has been working where the original author faltered for the last several months, though he may be finally finishing up soon, as he doing PRCs for old goblin deities at the moment. He put a lot of detailed fluff around teh PRCs and feats, so there's plenty to draw on from plenty of sources. Enjoy.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[Tehnar]

There is also a very nice entry about Orcs in the monster manual IV. Some two pages of pure fluff.

[Bayar]

You can always rip-off the warcraft orcs...

[thegurullamen]

You can always rip-off the warcraft orcs...

I sort of agree. I try not to take much of anything from the Warcraft world, but their orcs are just so much better than the insubstantial "me thug go smash now" idiotic brutes we have in D&D. As they stand in most of the games I've played, they're either Always Chaotic Evil or Always Chaotic Stupid which is just unsatisfying from a verisimilitudinous standpoint. I want a smart (or barring that, wise) orc who can do something for the orc world beside leading them on some stupid conquest that will fall apart a week after they die of old age at 35.

Furthermore, D&D orcs are just weaksawse. After level 7 or so, a whole horde of them just don't matter any more. At least Warcraft orcs feel like they could pose a legitimate threat. Shamans, rage warriors, alliances with the vodoun-inclined trolls-it's colorful and powerful stuff. In D&D, their big tactic, their big advantage is numbers, which doesn't really work.

[Cieyrin]

Furthermore, D&D orcs are just weaksawse. After level 7 or so, a whole horde of them just don't matter any more. At least Warcraft orcs feel like they could pose a legitimate threat. Shamans, rage warriors, alliances with the vodoun-inclined trolls-it's colorful and powerful stuff. In D&D, their big tactic, their big advantage is numbers, which doesn't really work.

This is when you start dealing in variants, like the Orogs and Tanna'ruk. Powerful orc races that are different yet keep to the core flavor of the savage horde.

Also, the only thing holding D&D orcs from being Warcraft Orcs is giving them class levels. Rage warriors? Levels of Barbarian. Shamans? Levels of Cleric, Druid, possibly Spirit Shaman if you want to get more spirit oriented. Warlocks? ...Yeah, those Int and Charisma penalties hurt there but Wizard or Warlock levels will suffice, I suppose.

Your standard orc has a level of warrior. To advance them, you give them some real levels, not throw a horde of them at the party (though certainly a valid tactic for screening and/or giving your casters a little time while the fodder dies). Just like with any early opponent in a game, to make them more effective, give them the tools to do so so that they remain a challenge later on.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[Bhu]

Y'mean this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...=1#post4067852

Bhu has been working where the original author faltered for the last several months, though he may be finally finishing up soon, as he doing PRCs for old goblin deities at the moment. He put a lot of detailed fluff around teh PRCs and feats, so there's plenty to draw on from plenty of sources. Enjoy.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

It wound down at Wizards because I wasn't getting any help with it. We were supposed to do a race book like Races of Stone, but no one ever wrote much after a certain point or responded when I asked for help. I still have ideas for PrC's and such though so I'm continuing to do them, I just switched from Orcs to Goblins to keep people from burning out on it (the original project included Orcs and all Goblinoids). I'll be going back to Orcs eventually.

[Gnorman]

When in doubt, write it yourself.

Orcs and Arcane Magic

While the vast majority of orcs disdain arcane magic as the purview of their hated enemies, the elves, the more intelligent orcs of the tribes and warbands possess enough foresight to realize that arcane magic is just another tool in the orcish repertoire. They also realize that their enemies won't expect arcane magic from the savage, lowly orc, and the element of surprise is often very valuable.

Orc sorcerers are natural leaders and warmages of tribes. They prefer spells that destroy their enemies outright or dominate them into effective slavery. As such, they are often found with evocation and enchantment spells. They charge into battle with their fellows, command their enemies to turn on their allies, and burn the rest with flames or sear them with caustic acid. They also enjoy conjuration spells that separate enemies or deny them territory, such as cloudkill, caustic mire, or black tentacles (if they can lock down their quarry and damage it at the same time, all the better). Smaller tribes often may not have a soothsayer or an augur, and in this case a sorcerer with divination spells will fill the gap. Necromancy is also a popular choice, as orcs appreciate cursing their enemies and drawing upon fell power.

Orc sorcerers are almost always male. While the occasional female manifests sorcerous talent, they are often shunned as outcasts for this - they are supposed to handle healing and protective magic. Destructive magic is for the men. If the female sorcerer is capable of casting a number of Abjuration and Transmutation spells, she may be more acceptable to the tribe's leaders.

Orc wizards consider themselves a bit more civilized and shy away from flashier spells and those that have the potential for failure. They are aware of the fact that though they are themselves relatively intelligent (for orcs), their competition is possibly smarter and almost certainly better educated. They prefer to use spells that do not require save DCs, such as transmutation spells to buff their fellows or summoning spells (as orcs are often notoriously lazy). Orcs usually have no qualms about consorting with fiendish creatures or the undead, and frequently order them about in an imperious and impatient manner (a practice that has resulted in more than a few orcs being devoured by an angry demon). They, like sorcerers, enjoy spells that divide and weaken their foes, but are much more likely to use non-damaging spells like solid fog, stinking cloud, and grease. Like sorcerers, they too enjoy Necromancy for its power and implication (taking the strength of one's enemy for one's own).

Orcs, whether sorcerous or wizardly in nature, almost never cast illusion or abjuration spells. Those are for the weak (the gnomes), the cowardly (the dwarves), and those who are both (the elves).

Orc spellbooks are crude, made of bone and skin and often written in a crude ink made from dirt, blood, and other substances best left unmentioned. Occasionally one will steal a blank spellbook from a caravan and use that.

Given that arcane might is often not a popular or respected path to power in orcish tribes, the numbers of orc wizards is few. Orc sorcerers may be domineering and arrogant, but orc wizards are quieter and subtler. Orcish women who find themselves oppressed and dismissed in society often pursue wizardry as a way of gaining elevation in the eyes of their tribe. If they are subtle about their studies and are capable and willing of casting protection and buffing spells for the men before battle, most orcish men either won't even notice them or grudgingly accept their capability. Some orcish women pursue wizardly as a path for revenge - if discovered studying wizardry without the express permission of the warchief, they are often burned as witches.

[Myrmex]

-2 to mental stats isn't that big a deal for casters past level 7, especially when they have +4 str and you're going to be running Clericzilla with them.

[Ganurath]

While the vast majority of orcs disdain arcane magic as the purview of their hated enemies, the elves, the more intelligent orcs of the tribes and warbands possess enough foresight to realize that arcane magic is just another tool in the orcish repertoire. They also realize that their enemies won't expect arcane magic from the savage, lowly orc, and the element of surprise is often very valuable.

The more intelligent orcs in the tribe average at being the weaker ones in the tribe, and thus the dead ones.

Orc sorcerers are natural leaders and warmages of tribes. They prefer spells that destroy their enemies outright or dominate them into effective slavery. As such, they are often found with evocation and enchantment spells. They charge into battle with their fellows, command their enemies to turn on their allies, and burn the rest with flames or sear them with caustic acid. They also enjoy conjuration spells that separate enemies or deny them territory, such as cloudkill, caustic mire, or black tentacles (if they can lock down their quarry and damage it at the same time, all the better). Smaller tribes often may not have a soothsayer or an augur, and in this case a sorcerer with divination spells will fill the gap. Necromancy is also a popular choice, as orcs appreciate cursing their enemies and drawing upon fell power.

Orc sorcerors would be killed before they gain control of their powers. Even if they got lucky, they'd be strictly blasty and be used as tools by the real powers: The clerics, the chieftains, and the Eyes of Gruumsh.

Orc sorcerers are almost always male. While the occasional female manifests sorcerous talent, they are often shunned as outcasts for this - they are supposed to handle healing and protective magic. Destructive magic is for the men. If the female sorcerer is capable of casting a number of Abjuration and Transmutation spells, she may be more acceptable to the tribe's leaders.

Orc females are only good for breeding in the eyes of orcs. If an orc sorceress ever made her powers known, she would be killed simply to make sure there weren't any females with power.

Orc wizards consider themselves a bit more civilized and shy away from flashier spells and those that have the potential for failure. They are aware of the fact that though they are themselves relatively intelligent (for orcs), their competition is possibly smarter and almost certainly better educated. They prefer to use spells that do not require save DCs, such as transmutation spells to buff their fellows or summoning spells (as orcs are often notoriously lazy). Orcs usually have no qualms about consorting with fiendish creatures or the undead, and frequently order them about in an imperious and impatient manner (a practice that has resulted in more than a few orcs being devoured by an angry demon). They, like sorcerers, enjoy spells that divide and weaken their foes, but are much more likely to use non-damaging spells like solid fog, stinking cloud, and grease. Like sorcerers, they too enjoy Necromancy for its power and implication (taking the strength of one's enemy for one's own).

Orc wizards require orc literacy and orc formal education. Not gonna happen.

Orcs, whether sorcerous or wizardly in nature, almost never cast illusion or abjuration spells. Those are for the weak (the gnomes), the cowardly (the dwarves), and those who are both (the elves).

Abjurations are fine if they augment existing toughness inherent in being an orc.

Orc spellbooks are crude, made of bone and skin and often written in a crude ink made from dirt, blood, and other substances best left unmentioned. Occasionally one will steal a blank spellbook from a caravan and use that. are a myth.

Given that arcane might is often not a popular or respected path to power in orcish tribes, the numbers of orc wizards is few. Orc sorcerers may be domineering and arrogant, but orc wizards are quieter and subtler. Orcish women who find themselves oppressed and dismissed in society often pursue wizardry as a way of gaining elevation in the eyes of their tribe. If they are subtle about their studies and are capable and willing of casting protection and buffing spells for the men before battle, most orcish men either won't even notice them or grudgingly accept their capability. Some orcish women pursue wizardly as a path for revenge - if discovered studying wizardry without the express permission of the warchief, they are often burned as witches.

See the above points. Also, a chief/cleric/Eye would never given a woman permission to do anything but bare children.

There are some things that cannot go unsaid.

[Gnorman]

Eh, you have your orcs and I have mine. I like mine a little less... one-dimensional, I suppose. Ones with potential to break the mold that Gruumsh puts on them. Perhaps not canon, but to my mind more interesting.

Most of this is just contradictory ideas of what it can mean to be an orc, but I do have to dispute one factual error here: Orcish has an alphabet. It's Dwarven, yeah, but it still has a written form. Orcish mooks, if they are warriors, are technically literate.

[Dark Herald]

There are some things that cannot go unsaid.

So where does this come from?

You just shot down a page of interesting ideas and well thought out fluff, contradicting it as if it wasn't true. So what's your idea of orc culture, and does it have any information backing it up? I thought the problem in this thread was the lack of official information, so enlighten us.

[Gnorman]

So where does this come from?

You just shot down a page of interesting ideas and well thought out fluff, contradicting it as if it wasn't true. So what's your idea of orc culture, and does it have any information backing it up? I thought the problem in this thread was the lack of official information, so enlighten us.

He's an orc purist. Live and die by the hand and eye of Gruumsh and all that. Violently oppressive meritocratic patriarchy, where only the strong survive and strength is measured only by the notches on your battleaxe. For many orcs, that's the way life is. Greyhawk orcs, for example.

But that's not to say that other ideas of orcs can't exist. Look at Eberron, for example. Or King Obould Many-Arrows. Sure, he was a conquering marauder blessed by Gruumsh, but he was also very, very smart.

[deuxhero]

You could also drop a bridge on the lazy Tolkien plagiarism and just use Goliath or such for the "big guy" nitch.

[Gnorman]

You could also drop a bridge on the lazy Tolkien plagiarism and just use Goliath or such for the "big guy" nitch.

They just don't have the same feel to them. Orcs are... well, awesome.