I hope I don't have a problem on my hands [DM issue]

[Milskidasith]

Ok, so I'm going to be DMing for a group of friends. One of my friends has played D&D before, the rest are pretty much new. I'm being generous and giving them 5d6b3 for stats, not because I want to have a high powered campaign but because, for the initial campaign, which I intended to take from level 3 to around 11, maybe adding in a one shot training dungeon from levels 1 to 3. I was also going to play mostly core only, due to my lack of books (I intend to buy some if this group works out.)

However, the friend that has played D&D before has me a bit worried. He wants to play a wizard. Considering the fact that he's the only one with experience and it doesn't even take that to break the game in half, I suggested he play a more reasonable character, like sorcerer focused on blasting, as a compromise. (I would have suggested bard, but for some reason he thinks they are totally horrible, and that it would be better to just have a warrior [yes, he meant the NPC class.]) After a bit of prodding, I convinced him to not play a wizard... but he said that he would play a rogue and he knew how to break the game in half with rogues. Ugh.

He's a pretty good friend, and I don't want to cut him from the group, but I need some kind of way to get him to be reasonable about this. It won't be fun for all my friends if they are outshined by the player who has D&D experience playing the T1 class. He says he's never played a wizard before, which might keep him from being too broken, but I'm still worried.

[Mongoose87]

1. Ask him not to break the game.

2. If he tries it, rocks fall.

[Gorgondantess]

If you're only going to level 11 or so, let 'em play a wizard. They only really become god once you hit 15th or so. And till about lvl 5, a barbarian'll take them down.
And rogues don't get broken too easily- especially not in core- so I think he's just messing with you.

[Milskidasith]

Yeah, I figured he doesn't know what broken really means for rogues, but any kind of strong attempt at optimization is going to invalidate a lot of the other characters.

I still think a wizard is pretty powerful at lower levels; a ton of spells can end encounters easily. However, he seems to be kind of intent on death effects and what he called "useful" spells, which meant... everything that isn't blasty, but I think he was more specifically saying buffs and such. So maybe he'll just be a standard blaster and not hurt the game too much.

[Tequila Sunrise]

Let him play a wizard and ask him not to break the game. Brow beating him into playing his second choice will just motivate him to break the game in a different way, if he's that kind of guy. If he's not that kind of guy, he'll be a good friend and not break the game even as a wizard.

[AslanCross]

You're going to have to go with the gentleman's agreement here. Wizards don't automatically break the game; it's their players who do. I'd just let him go with wizard and keep him under control from there.

(I actually like it when I have a wizard in the party.)

[erikun]

Did he say "I want to break the game" or did he say "I know how to make wizards/rogues really effective"?

Please note that the classic "Batman Wizard" doesn't break encounters by carpetbombing with Finger of Death. They do it by buffing the party and disrupting enemies, so that the rest of the party can kill them off.

I'd say let him play whatever he wants, or get a look at what he's planning before allowing it in the game. If the other players are sticking with core/no PrC, then put the same restrictions on him. Seriously, just restricting the gold/scrolls available will limit his options quite a bit, if that's what you're worried about.

[Sinfire Titan]

If you're only going to level 11 or so, let 'em play a wizard. They only really become god once you hit 15th or so. And till about lvl 5, a barbarian'll take them down.
And rogues don't get broken too easily- especially not in core- so I think he's just messing with you.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Wizards are broken the instant they realize that Magic Missile sucks and Sleep/Color Spray/Charm Person are good spells (and those are arguably weaker than Grease, which can stall even high-level encounters for a full minute if you know what to do with it). It gets worse when they get 2nd level spells, like Glitterdust.


Rogues are fine if they avoid UMD, and even then you can avoid them breaking the campaign by not letting them bypass the WBL. Or MDJ, but DMs who use MDJ unmodified deserve to be shot.

[Milskidasith]

I'm not going to disjunction my players, trust me. If I did, I'd just have it negate magic items for 1 hour/CL or something reasonable.

Edit: I'm going to let him run the wizard, but I'm going to keep my eye on him, especially since he is clearly willing (although possibly not able) to break the game or threaten to in order to get what he wants.

[valadil]

Have you tried asking him nicely to not be a ****?

[aje8]

Look, until he actually breaks the game or something it doesn't seem fair to punish him premtivley.

If he actually uses it to get his way, that's a problem. But honestly if he plays a god wizard the other players will have fun as he won't have a save or die at all since the campagin ends a t lv. 11. Most of his good spells will be battlefeild control buffing and debuffing and that makes the rest of the party feel good even if he's really doing all the heavy lifting.

[Gecks]

Maybe ask him specifically to be the "wise old man of the party"? Something like "Hey, I know you know the system in and out, I was wondering if you wouldn't mind either making a unoptimized build or choosing a "weaker" class so you can stay in the background, you know, kind of deliberately keep out of the limelight and whisper in the ears of these noobs about how the game is played. That way, they'll think they're kicking A** and taking names on their own, and they'll have fun enough fun to become die-hard players themselves. It can just stay between you and me about how much of their success is actually on you- at least, until the next campaign, when they won't need hand-holding and you can build that world-killing wizard you were thinking about."

It may have just been my own good luck, but I've recently started a campaign with a very wide "player experience" spread, and personally I've found using the vets to teach the newbies has been perfect- the vets actually step back and let the newbs shine, and the newbs seem to take advise better from fellow players instead of the DM. I've actually seen vet players with (relatively) optimized builds actually step back and let the newer players take over when they happen come up with a good plan or a neat idea- when initially I was worried that the exact opposite would happen. Just a thought.

[Milskidasith]

I asked him to try to be unoptimized, but so far all I've gotten on his end is him saying he didn't want to play a gimped character or have to sit back because he's too strong, and requests to create specific weapons/spells for him.

[Kylarra]

I'm not seeing the problem unless he's preemptively cheesing out metamagic-ed stuff. Sure spellcasters by default can end most encounters if played a certain way, but that doesn't mean that they will be played to the hilt either. I'd say let him play it for a while and if it turns out to be a problem, address it then, don't penalize him on what you think he might do.

[Milskidasith]

That's the thing; every sign I have is that he's going to be cheesing the game. All his stories about his character involves them being pretty overpowered, he's asked me to create specific spells for him (including something that was essentially finger of death, but a touch spell... and spell level 2), and he's threatened to break the game (with a rogue, granted, so it's kind of an idle threat) if he doesn't get what he wants. He's also good friends with everybody I want to play, so if there is a confrontation I could lose other good RL friends and have no group.

[Kylarra]

That's the thing; every sign I have is that he's going to be cheesing the game. All his stories about his character involves them being pretty overpowered, he's asked me to create specific spells for him (including something that was essentially finger of death, but a touch spell... and spell level 2), and he's threatened to break the game (with a rogue, granted, so it's kind of an idle threat) if he doesn't get what he wants. He's also good friends with everybody I want to play, so if there is a confrontation I could lose other good RL friends and have no group.

Well first off, I'd nix any custom spells, but I'm assuming you knew that.


On the other hand, if he's actively threatened to break the game as blackmail, just drop him from the group. Seriously, it's not worth the effort, and assuming you're also good friends with the rest of the group, they'll understand.

[seedjar]

Alternatively, instead of letting him make you out to be the bad guy, you could just let him stomp all over the game and make an ass out of himself in front of all your mutual friends.
Or, to be nicer about it, just call him out. Have a group talk about character builds during the first session before you get started. His custom spells can be the first topic. You can go over effectiveness in terms of damage-dealt-per-round and the value of build synergy. (Maybe you can find custom spells to give your newbies, too, hehe.) I bet that if the discussion were in front of your friends, he wouldn't dream of threatening you with those ultimatums.
~Joe

[sadi]

No custom spells definitely, I wouldn't allow him anything that would give him extra spell slots either. Preapprove feats and prestige classes, and when in doubt use the line I'm new, I want it fairly simple. And when in doubt use intelligent monsters who use the ready action options, (ready action shoot him with a bow if he starts casting) at worst he needs the rest of the party to block any unfriendlies or spend spell slots on protecting himself.

[Myou]

I strongly advise that you let him play exactly what he wants, and simply make the standard gentleman's agreement with him. Something like "Please don't spoil everyone's fun by dominating the game and abusing flaws in the rules.".

[Kol Korran]

a few things:
1) the player obviously wants to feel powerfull. when you guys play, and when he is succesfull in his tactics, describe things accordingly to let him feel powerfull for a moment. just make sure it doesn't happpen all the time.

2) i'd suggest you disallow any custom items or spells (that way you don't have to explain why you allowed that and not that). and then sit down with the core book (and any other books you may allow) carefully go over spells, and decide what you allow and why not (these you may have to explain). make a ruling, and be done with it. check out the various wizard threads for abuses.

3) in my experience, wizards get broken only when:

• played by quite intelligent players
• the party plays well to have fore knowledge of the enemies ahead.
• most importently: the DM doesn't know how to build adventures to a party that include a wizard

i guess i need to explain a bit about the last bit. when i DMed in 3.5 i tailored my adventures so that a wizard would be effective, but that he must be very carefull with his spelll selection, and usage. a few tried and true aspects of adventure planning (i suggest this in general, but i'll focus on the wizaardy aspects):

• time limit: the party can't charge full force, blast away with their best spells, then retreat and rest- too many rests and the villain escapes or finishes it's plan! the party must realise that they need to venture over a certain amount of encounters before they rest to finish on time! an added element could be that the adventure changes the longer the party waits- the enemy could have reinforcements, the villain could gain a level, the guarded treasure in the vault can be transported somewhere the players don't know and so on. put a time pressure. it's one of the most essentials things in adsventures, and with casters especially. suddenly the sorcerer shines!
• unknown enemies: at least some of the enemies are totally unknown, not only to the characters, but alkso to the players! these could be homebrewed monsters, or just core creatures for whom you changed appearance and fluff, but not abilities. a caster works best by being able to counter the abilities of creatures, or exploit their weaknesses. but if they meet a creature whom the player can't recognize, then the wizard may be a bit stumped, or choose less then optimal spells. this is mostly true when scouting an enemy camp//whereabouts - "the rogue find several large humanoids with greyish purple fur, a single horn in their forehead, and hooved legs. amongst the camp there are several other beaasties such as... " the humanoids could be ogre mages or whatever, but would the wizard know? suddenly knowledge skills become real usefull. note: don't exagerrate with this. expereinced players like to know they know some of their enemies.
• build some of the encounters at every section of the campagin with creatures that challange the normal tactics of the wizard spell selection. he likes grease? have an encounter with giant spiders. he likes glitter dust? have some battle trained blind basilisk fight them (ok, not the best example, but you get my intention). my general suggestion is that in encounters use a mix of enemies, some easely affected bythe wizard, some less. damaging spells might become great once again! look for the quirky creatures, those with a strange ability.
• intelligent foes fight inteligently against casters, especially arcane ones: once the caster is identified, have the hobgoblin commander shout something in goblin, and suddenly tow of the back troopers aim their bows at the wizard. ready action- casts a spell- shot with arrows. this is the simplest tactic, there are others, such as a fellow caster casting on the wizards when he casts (and being less affected by mage armor and shield). or the enemies may have specially traiend beasites to target casters, which can use the same actions to interfere with the wizard (this could range from blood hawks, to minor devils such as a quasit or dretch or lemure, to simply hounds. you'd be amazed how simple stirges can be effective even at high levels. just give the critters a mean to by pass the rest of the party)
• change battlefields: the common dungeon is BOOOORRRING, and plays all to well to the wizard's hand- fighters can block the enemy getting to him, most rooms ar conveniently large just enough for his spells to catch many enemies at once, and so on. instead- make dungeons with huge rooms, use bridges, cliffs, open areas, battlements, aboard a ship and more. these settings have several effects: first the battle field is more open, so less creatures ar affected by each wizard's spell (10ft radius spells catch one or two at most). secondly, the ruels of the encounter can be used intelligently by either the party or their foes, which is always good, and let fightes shine a bit more when pushing people of cliffs and so on. thirdly- mayn such battles may incur a concentration check in many places, which makes the wizard's and cleric's job a tad harder, if more realistic.

there are probably more things to tell. the rundown is that wizards can be handled, without gimping them, but by challanging them. i'll emphasise the time pressure again. you have no idea how that alters a game from a video game played on table top to an actual roleplay and tactical experience.

let the player play what he will, check out for anything too broken and ban it in advance, and plan your adventures accordingly.

Kol.

[Milskidasith]

Thanks for all the advice; I'll try to keep an eye on him.

As for dropping him from the group, it's essentially impossible; if he goes, then the mutual friends are probably not going to show up, because, not knowing anything about the system at all, I can't exactly argue my case for "he was pretty much threatening to ruin your fun by being really really overpowered if he didn't get his custom goodies and to play a wizard, both of which are also overpowered."

[Myshlaevsky]

Thanks for all the advice; I'll try to keep an eye on him.

As for dropping him from the group, it's essentially impossible; if he goes, then the mutual friends are probably not going to show up, because, not knowing anything about the system at all, I can't exactly argue my case for "he was pretty much threatening to ruin your fun by being really really overpowered if he didn't get his custom goodies and to play a wizard, both of which are also overpowered."

Sorta sounds like blackmail. Is he aware of this and actively using it to try and influence you?

[Milskidasith]

Aware that the entire gaming group would collapse? No, if had any clue that I was close to dropping him, he still probably wouldn't figure out that would destroy the rest of the group. As for threatening to break the game... yeah, he's pretty much trying to get all the goodies he can when he's dealing with people who wouldn't have any clue about the rules.

[Myshlaevsky]

Aware that the entire gaming group would collapse? No, if had any clue that I was close to dropping him, he still probably wouldn't figure out that would destroy the rest of the group. As for threatening to break the game... yeah, he's pretty much trying to get all the goodies he can when he's dealing with people who wouldn't have any clue about the rules.

I think your best bet is to begin the campaign with a warning that you want it to be fun for everyone, and if breaks it or desperately tries to do so you'll just remove him from it. I know he hasn't responded to such advice already, but you're pretty much in a Gordian knot - the only definite way to solve the problem is to cut him out. Ideally you'll be able to counter his powerful role with the advice in this thread, or your other players will begin to enjoy the game and so stay even if he is forced to leave.

Are the players completely new to pen & paper games or is it just D&D?

[Myou]

Aware that the entire gaming group would collapse? No, if had any clue that I was close to dropping him, he still probably wouldn't figure out that would destroy the rest of the group. As for threatening to break the game... yeah, he's pretty much trying to get all the goodies he can when he's dealing with people who wouldn't have any clue about the rules.

A thought strikes me.

Give him everything he wants. All the custom items, all the broken spells. Let him be completely overpowered. Let him be Pun-Pun if he wants.

The others will quickly see that he's hugely overpowered, and he will likely get bored anyway, since he'll be facing unoptimised foe appropriate to the rest of the party. Then you and the others tell him that his character is too good, and none of you can compete, so it's time to retire the character, because no-one has fun with the character around.

Just an idea.

[woodenbandman]

Ask him to play a buffer wizard. If he's the best buffer wizard ever, then at least the party will be mostly balanced with each other. That's the most manageable problem to deal with. It gets outrageous and hard to handle if he's, like, a tippy wizard who kills everything at extra long range.

[Milskidasith]

The thing is, I honestly don't know if my group would get bored if he was overpowered, but I would be supremely bored. I'd either have to optimize encounters to kill him (though I could probably just slap high SR on everything and call it a day), or have everybody else gawk in awe as he kills everybody. And if he figured out that SR: No spells are awesome, then I'd be forced to play monsters that would kill the others instantly just to challenge him.

So, while my group may or may not be annoyed that one player is essentially killing everything for them, I'd find it to be boring and a huge hassle to deal with as a DM (besides the aforementioned SR thing.)

[Myou]

The thing is, I honestly don't know if my group would get bored if he was overpowered, but I would be supremely bored. I'd either have to optimize encounters to kill him (though I could probably just slap high SR on everything and call it a day), or have everybody else gawk in awe as he kills everybody. And if he figured out that SR: No spells are awesome, then I'd be forced to play monsters that would kill the others instantly just to challenge him.

So, while my group may or may not be annoyed that one player is essentially killing everything for them, I'd find it to be boring and a huge hassle to deal with as a DM (besides the aforementioned SR thing.)

If all they do is watch him beat everything then don't you think they'll be bored?

If you do optimise to challenge him then let them all die against overpowered foes then tell them why it happened - you have to give them such foes to challenge the wizard.

[quick_comment]

Cheat.

You are the DM. Give monsters incredible saves, evasion and mettle. Call it the Tilexu_Ghola-blooded template or whatever.

[Forbiddenwar]

no one has mentioned the easiest way to control a wizard. Control the spells he can learn. almost never drop an arcane scroll. make divine liches so that they can't learn anything good. make him have an IC reason for every spell he has.

Still I agree with given him everything he wants. when the first game is over in 15 minutes, the others may see the player ruining the game and may walk anyway.

It sounds like he doesn't want to play D&D at all. Maybe you shoiuld suggest he watch a movie instead.