[3.5] At-will Staff

[Myou]

I'm thinking about getting my party artificer to craft me a staff in a few level's time, but I don't like charged items much, so can anyone tell me how to work out the cost for a staff that casts spells at will with no charge limit? Assuming there are rules for that.

I don't know which spells to get yet, but once I know the formula I can decide.

[gibbo88]

If you look in the thread about a flavorful staff you should find the rules as far as people are aware of them.

[JeminiZero]

There are rules for creating items that can cast a given spell at will (see Spell Effect-Use Activated or Continuous on this table). But most DMs frown on these due to their potential for some rather bizarre tactics (I cast create water till the dungeon floods!)

[Cieyrin]

here, Myou, go here and be enlightened: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6774123

[Myou]

Well, it looks like whatever I went for, figuring out the price would be an Epic level challenge, and I'd have to be epic to be able to afford it too.

Thanks anyway. ^^;

[Jack_Simth]

There are rules for creating items that can cast a given spell at will (see Spell Effect-Use Activated or Continuous on this table). But most DMs frown on these due to their potential for some rather bizarre tactics (I cast create water till the dungeon floods!)

Rough guidelines, not rules. They're very explicit in that they're only a starting point.

[Myou]

Rough guidelines, not rules. They're very explicit in that they're only a starting point.

That's a good point.

What would you guys think would be a fair price for something like a Staff of Disintegrate at-will?

[Kylarra]

That's a good point.

What would you guys think would be a fair price for something like a Staff of Disintegrate at-will?

I'd start by buying your DM a drink... or two ... or three...


In other words, pretty much nothing that a sane DM is going to allow you to do.


but anyway
by RAW
Command word item, level 6 spell
6*11*1800= 118,800 gp unless I'm misremembering.

[Eloel]

DMG rules suggest 132k for a use-activated one. (Point at enemy with the intention of disintegrating, sounds like a usable use-activate at standard action)
That seems about the price I'd charge myself.
(For a comparison, using normal Staffs, you get 125 disintegrates for the same price.)

[Myou]

Well, that does seem fair. I guess I'll have to look at lower level spells if I get a staff.

[Jack_Simth]

That's a good point.

What would you guys think would be a fair price for something like a Staff of Disintegrate at-will?

As a DM?

Depends. Do you want it as a Staff (using your caster level and primary casting stat, if it's higher than the same inherent in the staff), or as an item that is effectively command-word?

See, as a staff, it's MUCH more useful - it deals more damage, more reliably. So while I might let a command-word item that uses the weapon virtual slot of at-will disintegrate go for the approximately 120,000 gp (most times, it'll only deal the 5d6 damage), the staff of at-will disintegrate would run you at least 200k in my campaign.

[Johel]

There are rules for creating items that can cast a given spell at will (see Spell Effect-Use Activated or Continuous on this table). But most DMs frown on these due to their potential for some rather bizarre tactics (I cast create water till the dungeon floods!)

As said previously, the rules are NOT to be used lightly.

Ring of Reality Shapping :
Spell Effect : Wish
Command word : 2.000 x 17 x 9 = 306.000 gp
1 Charge per day : 306.000 x0.8 = -244.800 gp
Spell has XP cost : 5.000 XP x 5 x 50 = +1.250.000 gp
Price : 1.311.200 gp
Cost : 655.600 gp
XP cost : 250.000 XP + 52.448 XP = 302.448 XP

Yes, that's costly but hey, you'll quickly get a refund on that one.
1 free wish everyday
PS : don't break the rules, it make Gygax cry.

[Eloel]

As said previously, the rules are NOT to be used lightly.

Ring of Reality Shapping :
Spell Effect : Wish
Command word : 2.000 x 17 x 9 = 306.000 gp
1 Charge per day : 306.000 x0.8 = -244.800 gp
Spell has XP cost : 5.000 XP x 5 x 50 = +1.250.000 gp
Price : 1.311.200 gp
Cost : 655.600 gp
XP cost : 250.000 XP + 52.448 XP = 302.448 XP

Yes, that's costly but hey, you'll quickly get a refund on that one.
1 free wish everyday
PS : don't break the rules, it make Gygax cry.

You're spending 60-wish worth of XP & 655k gp on it, and taking 2 years in the making.

You can make your 60 wishes in 2 months, without spending a single gp, if you get 1 9th level spell/day. 1 month if you get 2.

60 wishes are WAY more than what you need.

[PinkysBrain]

There are rules for creating items

Guidelines for the DM, not rules :)

As for the OP, the guidelines are okay for command word items with times/day limits ... so use those. Steer clear of the unlimited/day items though, just doesn't work well with a lot of spells.

[Johel]

You're spending 60-wish worth of XP & 655k gp on it, and taking 2 years in the making.

You can make your 60 wishes in 2 months, without spending a single gp, if you get 1 9th level spell/day. 1 month if you get 2.

60 wishes are WAY more than what you need.

Well, yes, as an individual, yes, 60 wishes is a lot.
But look at it that way :

• +5 on all abilities for you and all your friends. You're now all handsome charismatic wisemen with genius intellect in an athletic body. That's 30 wishes per person.
• one daily magical item, 10.000 gp worth. Because you never get enough power. If only for the wands, potions and scrolls at will, it's worth it. Let's say 10 wishes per person.
• When you're all mighty, get 25.000 gp worth of mundane items, so you do not care about material concerns. Let's say 5 wishes per person
• You're one rich, fat, powerful wizard. But just in case, you can simply replicate of most spells. Priceless

At that point, the ring can benefit the whole kingdom.
Given a few weeks, you can basically create a whole city out of nothing.
Then provide food and clothes for everyone.
Then equip whole companies with magical weapons.
Then... well, you get my point : there's no such thing as "more than what you need" because, as humans, we have HUUUUGE "needs".

The point about that item was that Magical Item Crafting is broken if you stick by the rules.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Well, yes, as an individual, yes, 60 wishes is a lot.
But look at it that way :

• +5 on all abilities for you and all your friends. You're now all handsome charismatic wisemen with genius intellect in an athletic body. That's 30 wishes per person.
• one daily magical item, 10.000 gp worth. Because you never get enough power. If only for the wands, potions and scrolls at will, it's worth it. Let's say 10 wishes per person.
• When you're all mighty, get 25.000 gp worth of mundane items, so you do not care about material concerns. Let's say 5 wishes per person
• You're one rich, fat, powerful wizard. But just in case, you can simply replicate of most spells. Priceless

At that point, the ring can benefit the whole kingdom.
Given a few weeks, you can basically create a whole city out of nothing.
Then provide food and clothes for everyone.
Then equip whole companies with magical weapons.
Then... well, you get my point : there's no such thing as "more than what you need" because, as humans, we have HUUUUGE "needs".

The point about that item was that Magical Item Crafting is broken if you stick by the rules.

Except that because you can only Wish 1/day, you can never get more than +1 to all stats, and since most people find a way to get even stats anyways, it doesn't help.

[ericgrau]

Eh 50 charges last a LONG time. By the time you run out it'll be obsolete anyway. And staffs use your own stats and caster level, so it's pretty much like knowing more spells. That's really powerful for a caster already, and I'm surprised everyone doesn't get one for their character. At-will is asking for brokenage.

But if you really want at-will abilities, the formula is 1800 gp x spell level x caster level. 1 use per day is 1/5th that cost, 2/day is 2/5th, etc. Additional abilities beyond the first (most expensive) ability cost 50% more.

[Myou]

Eh 50 charges last a LONG time. By the time you run out it'll be obsolete anyway. And staffs use your own stats and caster level, so it's pretty much like knowing more spells. That's really powerful for a caster already, and I'm surprised everyone doesn't get one for their character. At-will is asking for brokenage.

But if you really want at-will abilities, the formula is 1800 gp x spell level x caster level. 1 use per day is 1/5th that cost, 2/day is 2/5th, etc. Additional abilities beyond the first (most expensive) ability cost 50% more.

Wow, the summary makes it a lot easier to understad than all those tables, thanks!
But doesn't the first extra ability cost 75% of that?

[Johel]

Except that because you can only Wish 1/day, you can never get more than +1 to all stats, and since most people find a way to get even stats anyways, it doesn't help.

...
*read the description of Wish again*
bonus don't stack...must be cast in immediate succession...
You seem to be right. My bad.
Still, +1 to all abilities can't be a bad thing.

If you really want to be picky, make it a unlimited use, then.
I didn't want since it's much more expansive and probably impossible to make by non-epic characters but it illustrates the problem of Magic Item Crafting even better.

Once you get it, you're one step away from godhood.
Wish casting time = 1 round
1 round = 6 sec
1 day = 86.400 sec = 14.400 rounds.
Let's say 1.000 wishes because some things are worth taking time.


I think any kingdom, if given the opportunity, will fund the creation of such a reality-breaking item. If the GM didn't break his head on the table for having allowed the players to do it in the first place, he's going to take a sick pleasure in twisting every single wish.

[ericgrau]

Wow, the summary makes it a lot easier to understad than all those tables, thanks!
But doesn't the first extra ability cost 75% of that?

That seems to be the rule for the 2nd abiliity on multiple similar abilities, and for the 2nd staff spell IIRC. i.e., you get a small discount on the 2nd ability and a big discount on every one after that. But for an at-will or use/day item with completely different abilities, every ability except the most expensive one costs 150% of normal (50% more than 100%). i.e., it's not a discount like the other situations where you pay only 3/4 or 1/2 of normal; you actually pay 50% more than normal.

But if, say, you had a staff of various AoE fire abilities, I could see using the discounted prices since the usefulness of the spells overlap eachother.

[Myou]

I think any kingdom, if given the opportunity, will fund the creation of such a reality-breaking item. If the GM didn't break his head on the table for having allowed the players to do it in the first place, he's going to take a sick pleasure in twisting every single wish.

Standard Wish spell operating procedure.

Everything you wish for is on fire. The fire is also on fire.

[Myshlaevsky]

Standard Wish spell operating procedure.

Everything you wish for is on fire. The fire is also on fire.

This post made me wished I saved that image.

[Myou]

That seems to be the rule for the 2nd abiliity on multiple similar abilities, and for the 2nd staff spell IIRC. i.e., you get a small discount on the 2nd ability and a big discount on every one after that. But for an at-will or use/day item with completely different abilities, every ability except the most expensive one costs 150% of normal (50% more than 100%). i.e., it's not a discount like the other situations where you pay only 3/4 or 1/2 of normal; you actually pay 50% more than normal.

Oops, misread.

So ability one (infinite/day), say, a level 2 spell, is 10,800.
Ability 2, another level 2 spell, would be 16200?

[ericgrau]

3 * 2 * 1800 = 10,800, so ya. And yes, 16,200 for the 2nd ability if you put it in the same item. Think of it as the cost of saving you 5 lbs. of weight and two move actions to switch staffs.

Also note that in at-will items you don't get to use your own caster level and stats like you get to do with staffs, which is a major downside. If you wanted to house-rule that in, I suppose making a minimum caster level of 8 for the item and making every spell have the same caster level as the highest level spell would be reasonable. That's what's done with regular staffs.

[Myou]

3 * 2 * 1800 = 10,800, so ya. And yes, 16,200 for the 2nd ability if you put it in the same item. Think of it as the cost of saving you 5 lbs. of weight and two move actions to switch staffs.

But... the charged version makes the second ability cheaper!

[ericgrau]

The charged version also makes all the abilities share the same 50 charges. You don't get an additional 50 charges for the 2nd spell. So really anything more than free is actually making you pay more for the 2nd spell in a regular staff. You're paying only for versatility, not more uses.

[Myou]

The charged version also makes all the abilities share the same 50 charges. You don't get an additional 50 charges for the 2nd spell.

Ohhh, I see!
Are you certain about that? Just making sure because I've never seen that written down anywhere.

[ericgrau]

Dunno but it seems strongly implied when they say "Staffs have 50 charges, this spell costs 1 charge, that spell costs 2 charges, etc.".

[Myou]

Dunno but it seems strongly implied when they say "Staffs have 50 charges, this spell costs 1 charge, this spell costs 2 charges, etc.".

I think I've seen premade staves with charges listed per spell though. You know, Fireball with 6 charges left, Magic Misile with 9 charges left, etc.

[Cieyrin]

I think I've seen premade staves with charges listed per spell though. You know, Fireball with 6 charges left, Magic Misile with 9 charges left, etc.

Staves have 50 charges that all their powers make use of, generally at a rate of 1 charge per use, though sometimes as much as 2 or 3 or even more, though that'll burn through a staff really quickly. The only time that doesn't occur is with with the minor artifact, the Staff of the Magi, which has a couple powers that cost no charges, though that just makes them at-will abilities.