Survivor: Eldritch Knight vs. Sublime Chord

[Paulus]

Hello everyone, I'm at a bit of a conundrum here and was wondering what your thoughts would be on the matter. I am trying to make a character that is as self sufficient as possible, meaning, he can be picked up and placed in any game world, and decently fill any roll in a party of 3.5 D&D. That is, he can be your face, tank, spell caster, secondary melee, and skillful. This is not to say he will exceed in all of these situations, just that he can cover for them if necessary.

This character would be decently skilled allowing to the fact of Able learner, which is okay since he will be human (the most common race on most worlds). He will have moderate hit points (average in the sixties either route) and specially crafted light armor for +10 AC and +5 Dexterity. Of which he will fill with a +6 Dexterity magic item and base dex of 14. I can also eliminate arcane spell failure from the armor for the first solution via templates or an extra class level, and the second does not worry about arcane spell failure in the same light armor. so I think defensibly he is alright.

He will also be taking the Non Verbal Spell Feat, Eschew Materials, and the line of Improved/Versatile/Superior Unarmed Strike feats to always be able to do decent damage, with gauntlets that can overcome any DR as his primary weapon. Along with his Arcane spell selection I think he is pretty well off damage wise too, allowing for the fact he also takes a great deal of utility and defense spells. I can post the spell list I have in mind later but for now... Thus far, upon adding style and or type of play, I have come down to two solutions.

The first is the Eldritch Knight path qualifying with 1 level of Fighter or Barbarian, following with nine levels of sorcerer, and then ten levels of Eldritch Knight. Or another variation would be Fighter or Barbarian 1/ Sorcerer 7/Ruathar 1/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 10. (allowing in the idea that this character has traveled so many worlds he was bound to helps some elves somewhere along the line).

The second option is the Bard 10/ Sublime Chord 10 route.

Both give me decent hit points, medium bab, fine saves, access to sorcerer spells up to at least one level nine spell, armored casting, and a nice variety of skills. My problem then comes down to versatility and viability. The Eldritch Knight gives me access to very powerful utility and variety spells, but the bard route gives me access to self and other healing spells. Unless I devised a way to create new spells that mimic the bard healing spells and give them to the Sorcerer (which I am working on) they both seem equal at this time.

However, having played only a divine spell caster myself I have not the experience to judge properly these two arcane beauties. Please bless me with your foreknowledge and insight into this matter. I would like the character to be able to withstand a few rounds of toe to toe with anything if necessary, unleash arcane destruction and support if necessary, and most heartily survive if possible.

[Keld Denar]

Do both!!!

Bard1/Paladin2/Sorcerer6/EK1/SubChord2/AbjurantChamp5/EK+3

This gets you Cha to all saves, 3rd level sorcerer casting, 4-9th level SC casting. Abjurant Champion goodness. Only 15/20 BAB though, although you can make up for that with Arcane Disciple (War or Competition) to add Divine Powah to your spell list.

Also, Cha focus opens up cool feats like Law Devotion and Divine Might, allowing you to actually BEAT PEOPLE UP with your dashing good looks. Fun stuff.

Hope this helps, any questions?

[BenTheJester]

Do both!!!

Bard1/Paladin2/Sorcerer6/EK1/SubChord2/AbjurantChamp5/EK+3

This gets you Cha to all saves, 3rd level sorcerer casting, 4-9th level SC casting. Abjurant Champion goodness. Only 15/20 BAB though, although you can make up for that with Arcane Disciple (War or Competition) to add Divine Powah to your spell list.

Also, Cha focus opens up cool feats like Law Devotion and Divine Might, allowing you to actually BEAT PEOPLE UP with your dashing good looks. Fun stuff.

Hope this helps, any questions?

except he won't be able to be placed in "every game world" as having so many dips and 6 classes is often looked down upon(with reason)

[Hyfigh]

Do you NEED to keep the builds you've presented? Truly, there are many chord builds available that will fill the Eldritch Knight roll just as well as the Eldritch Knight would...

In all honesty, though, I've got a Sublime Chord build at home that uses the Dragonfire Inspiration feat to overcome melee challanges, the Sublime Chords ability to boost CL to be a formidable caster, and still has plenty of skill power. It seems something like that will fill your request better.

[ken-do-nim]

The first is the Eldritch Knight path qualifying with 1 level of Fighter or Barbarian, following with nine levels of sorcerer, and then ten levels of Eldritch Knight.
<snip>
The Eldritch Knight gives me access to very powerful utility and variety spells, but the bard route gives me access to self and other healing spells. Unless I devised a way to create new spells that mimic the bard healing spells and give them to the Sorcerer (which I am working on) they both seem equal at this time.

Paladin 4/Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight 10 is what you want I think. You get a little lay on hands ability, immunity to disease, and a nice ability score synergy focusing on charisma as well as great saves and a much better BAB.

[quick_comment]

Paladin 4/Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight 10 is what you want I think. You get a little lay on hands ability, immunity to disease, and a nice ability score synergy focusing on charisma as well as great saves and a much better BAB.

You dont even get 8th level spells with that.

[ex cathedra]

except he won't be able to be placed in "every game world" as having so many dips and 6 classes is often looked down upon(with reason)

Uh, the proposed build uses practically the same amount of material as one of the others. Core + Completes, no campaign specific material.

Secondly, there's nothing wrong with using six classes. There are multiclassing rules for a reason, neh? Arbitrarily judging someone for not using one or two classes is unfair, illogical, and actually quite silly.

[Baron Corm]

Ever heard of the factotum from Dungeonscape? The whole point of the class is to be able to do everything decently well, and I think it pulls it off nicely.

[vrellum]

I'd say sublime chord. Though I'd build the character different, if I had the chance. Sublime chord gets more skills and better spell casting imo. Plus bards get some useful spells for self sufficiency that sorcerers don't get (like healing) and they get some spells very early (Otto's irrestable dance). Plus bardic music can be quite useful, if you use it properly.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, a better Sorcadin build is:

Pal2/Sorc4/Spellsword1/AbjChamp5/SacredExorcist8

finishes 16/20 BAB, 18th level Sorcerer casting, can cast in Mithril Chain Shirt with uber AbjChamp protections, has Cha to saves and turn undead to power Divine feats like Divine Might or Law Devotion.

Pretty much one of the best sorcerer based gish builds.

[BenTheJester]

Uh, the proposed build uses practically the same amount of material as one of the others. Core + Completes, no campaign specific material.

Secondly, there's nothing wrong with using six classes. There are multiclassing rules for a reason, neh? Arbitrarily judging someone for not using one or two classes is unfair, illogical, and actually quite silly.

Just for fun, go look in the recruitment forum.

You will see that under the question "Do you allow multi-classing, or have any particular rules in regards to it?", the most common answer will be: "No penalty, but don't go crazy on dips"


It is not unfair to limit players in the number of classes he can take, it lets him suffer the downsides a class was designed to suffer.


A class, and even moreso a prestige class, is a devotion to a particular field. Taking dips everywhere is ridiculous.


Face it, dipping is fine for char op, but in reality, it is a disgusting aspect of DnD.

[quick_comment]

Face it, dipping is fine for char op, but in reality, it is a disgusting aspect of DnD.

So because wotc never published a class that fits the archetype you want for your character, you shouldnt get to play a particular concept?

[BenTheJester]

So because wotc never published a class that fits the archetype you want for your character, you shouldnt get to play a particular concept?

There's a difference between a particular concept and taking advantages of every classes without worrying about the downsides.


The build here is a perfect example. Unless your "particular concept" is a character who is extremely resistant to attacks and effects and has access to 9th level spells, and is a good melee character(aka near perfect character), it is just optimisation.

If a 1-20 class that gives you the exact benefits of this build would exist, don't you think everyone would classify it as overpowered?

[Melamoto]

So because wotc never published a class that fits the archetype you want for your character, you shouldnt get to play a particular concept?

You can still play it, it will just be more gimped than with the dips. Which isn't that bad when you would be getting high BAB and 18th level Sorc casting.

[Keld Denar]

The build here is a perfect example. Unless your "particular concept" is a character who is extremely resistant to attacks and effects and has access to 9th level spells, and is a good melee character(aka near perfect character), it is just optimisation.

Maybe that IS the point.

Besides, in the Sorcadin build I posted, you have 2 base classes and 3 PrCs. Its generally difficult to impossible to get into most hybred classes without 2 base classes...thats a given. Spellsword IS a dip, sure, because you don't quite fit into Abjurant Champion quite yet, and this gets you there without losing any more CL or BAB. Sure, you could do without it, but why would you? Then you have Abjurant Champion. Its only 5 levels long. You are taking all 5 levels of it. Thats not dipping. Then you head into Sacred Exorcist, taking 8 levels all the way to 20. SacEx is a gloriously flavorful class which matches the Paladin base fluff and combines it a little with an almost Rangery fanatacism toward eliminating Evil Outsiders and Undead using positive energy, spellcasting, and martial prowass (3/4 BAB).

So yea...the only dip in there is the Spellsword, which, flavorwise is not much different from AbjChamp in terms of being a martial caster. Its a bit TOO martial though, and the player would like to keep being as caster as possible.

Plus...you know...a character doesn't know his or her level makeup. They don't know that they have 1 level of Spellsword hanging out there by itself. At least this FLOWS well, as opposed to where someone picks up a single stranded level of cleric just to pillage the domains for bonus feats.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Face it, dipping is fine for char op, but in reality, it is a disgusting aspect of DnD.

It allows you to make fun characters.

[Ernir]

+1 to Keld's builds. They work.

And +1 for the Factotum. It is the base class that was supposed to be able to do anything.

Face it, dipping is fine for char op, but in reality, it is a disgusting aspect of DnD.

Your opinion. Not everyone's. Certainly not reality's. Most certainly not mine.

I wish my players would multiclass more. It would show they care about what they want their characters to be able to do instead of just following some published table.

If a 1-20 class that gives you the exact benefits of this build would exist, don't you think everyone would classify it as overpowered?

No, I'd look at it and say "meh, I can do the same thing with a simple Sublime Chord build".

[ex cathedra]

Just for fun, go look in the recruitment forum.

You will see that under the question "Do you allow multi-classing, or have any particular rules in regards to it?", the most common answer will be: "No penalty, but don't go crazy on dips"

'Most common?'
If you say so, but that doesn't change the fact that a vast number of games differ.

It is not unfair to limit players in the number of classes he can take, it lets him suffer the downsides a class was designed to suffer.

Excuse me? You seem to have much more faith in the intent of D&D's designers than I do. The amount of classes a character can take does not directly affect how powerful characters will be. It simply limits how creative a player can be with the mechanical aspects of their character.

A class, and even moreso a prestige class, is a devotion to a particular field. Taking dips everywhere is ridiculous.

Not every fighter has to be fighter 20. You can be a paladin even if you only take two levels of the paladin class.

Face it, dipping is fine for char op, but in reality, it is a disgusting aspect of DnD.

Our opinions differ, then. It's perfectly natural, if a bit too punished by core multiclassing rules.

[quick_comment]

This again?

The name of your class is complete metagame. A "cleric" can be played as a paladin, a doctor, a manfestation of the wrath of Obad-hai, whatever. A "fighter" can be an archer, a knight, an assassin, a ranger, a tracker, a town guardsman. A "sorcerer" might be a wizard, a warlock, an archmage, a hedge wizard, whatever.

A character (in a serious game) would never look at an item and say "ooh, this gives +4 to my will save!" He would say "I want that helm that increases my ability to shake off psychic attacks." Nor would he ever say "Hi, I am a duskblade/abjurant champion."

Some classes have in-game terms associated with them, like the jade phoenix mage or guild wizard of waterdeep. Most classes do not

[woodenbandman]

But I love playing a build with 2 levels in 10 classes!

It doesn't even matter anyway because the number of dips your build makes is inversely proportional to how powerful it is. A Fighter build needs 10 dips to be competent at hardly anything, whereas a sorceror needs like nothing to be powerful. If anything it has 2 prestige classes, max. Maybe even only 1.

[Paulus]

First of all thank you for the replies! Now, to business!

snips.

The stitch with this he needs Sorcerer casting to be magically viable against other casters more than he needs divine magic, secondly can’t be a paladin because that would require lawful good alignment, which wouldn’t go over to well if he is stuck on a world of evil, or with evil party members. I probably should have mentioned this, but didn’t deem it necessary, so before we argue possibilities of alignment based worlds, I will simply state I planned for Chaotic Good, with the exception that his alignment CAN change and that upon doing so should not loose him any abilities. Ditto for Law Devotion and Divine Might, I have a feat list planned out, so any class that requires other feats wouldn’t meet his other requirements to be self sufficient, do I need to post them as well? Perhaps I should post all my character info?

Do you NEED to keep the builds you've presented? Truly, there are many chord builds available that will fill the Eldritch Knight roll just as well as the Eldritch Knight would...

In all honesty, though, I've got a Sublime Chord build at home that uses the Dragonfire Inspiration feat to overcome melee challanges, the Sublime Chords ability to boost CL to be a formidable caster, and still has plenty of skill power. It seems something like that will fill your request better.

Well, they are what I have found to be most self sufficient. Full casting (so to speak) medium bab, good defense, good offense, good skills, decent saves. Casting in armor. Dexterity based survivability when facing larger or faster foes. I suppose I could switch it up, but that would require posting the entire build… something I must admit I am leaning to at this time.

Ever heard of the factotum from Dungeonscape? The whole point of the class is to be able to do everything decently well, and I think it pulls it off nicely.

Yes actually but I hesitate to mention my wish to stay away from ‘point pool’ classes. The same for psionics. It just ruins the immersion for me. Personal taste aside, I HAVE looked into Changling Factotum Chameleon, maybe someday…

I'd say sublime chord. Though I'd build the character different, if I had the chance. Sublime chord gets more skills and better spell casting imo. Plus bards get some useful spells for self sufficiency that sorcerers don't get (like healing) and they get some spells very early (Otto's irrestable dance). Plus bardic music can be quite useful, if you use it properly.

Better spell casting, better than a Sorcerer's? if so, how so? Please explain and thank you. But also keep in mind I have gotten permission from my DM to research and create new spells for my Sorc portion that would allow me to basically steal the Bard’s divine healing spell mimics. Therefore healing is no longer a catch 22 or so they say… if they do say… er what did I say?

Also in so far as dipping and level builds go I chose so many PRC strictly because they fit into his story. Achieve the goal I want and remain in story wise, which is why he could never be a paladin aside from the fact of alignment lock it puts on him. It would seem the best method of answering further questions and explanation would be to post the entire build. I shall await replies to this post before doing so, if I even need to.

Once again, I thank you all for being most helpful.

[PId6]

The stitch with this he needs Sorcerer casting to be magically viable against other casters more than he needs divine magic, secondly can’t be a paladin because that would require lawful good alignment, which wouldn’t go over to well if he is stuck on a world of evil, or with evil party members. I probably should have mentioned this, but didn’t deem it necessary, so before we argue possibilities of alignment based worlds, I will simply state I planned for Chaotic Good, with the exception that his alignment CAN change and that upon doing so should not loose him any abilities. Ditto for Law Devotion and Divine Might, I have a feat list planned out, so any class that requires other feats wouldn’t meet his other requirements to be self sufficient, do I need to post them as well? Perhaps I should post all my character info?

Paladin of Freedom. Paladin of Tyranny. Paladin of Slaughter.

[Paulus]

Paladin of Freedom. Paladin of Tyranny. Paladin of Slaughter.

Again all alignment locked "either this alignment or loose powers" does not sit well, and as an aside, the spell casting is not as useful as Sorcerers. No transportation or environmental survivability spells. Aside from Endure elements that I've seen. But then I'm only going by core so... Edit: bah why did I write this? Just got it wasn't a suggestion for Paladin spells but the abilities. In which case I would think a Barbarian's uncanny dodge would be better or such- none the less, point still stands that Alignment lock isn't very healthy for the characters. Especially if he finds himself on a world where his god (if he had one) or nature can not reach him. But I digress.

Also, still waiting for replies to previous post before posting build if it's needed.
Thanks!

[Tempest Fennac]

Ironically, I tend to have characters refering to whatever classes they are using in my games. (I tend to find it easier while seeing things like "Shapeshifter Druid" or "Conjuration Specialist Wizard" as job titles in the same way that Electritian or Lumberjack are due to the differences which exist regarding how classes do things).

The Knight Phantom, http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...050706a&page=4 , may be more useful to you then Eldrich Knight (it has stricter prequisites, but it gives a better HD and more class features, and the first level would reduce the need for a Spellsword level).

[Paulus]

Ironically, I tend to have characters refering to whatever classes they are using in my games. (I tend to find it easier while seeing things like "Shapeshifter Druid" or "Conjuration Specialist Wizard" as job titles in the same way that Electritian or Lumberjack are due to the differences which exist regarding how classes do things).

The Knight Phantom, http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...050706a&page=4 , may be more useful to you then Eldrich Knight (it has stricter prequisites, but it gives a better HD and more class features, and the first level would reduce the need for a Spellsword level).

Feats: Still Spell.
Skills: Ride 4 ranks.
Special: Proficiency in all martial weapons.
Special: Ability to cast phantom steed.
Special: Citizen of Aundair, member of the Order of the Knights Arcane.

Entry requirements are a tad steep. Give up a spell known, feat, and there is also the question of the citizenship. That's world specific, but bendable. However, it is a nice alternative. If not for the feat and spell requirement. Though I had planned on Shadow Conjuration (60% real) later on, it is still a bit of a stretch. Still I will keep it in mind... thought it is heavy flavor-wise. Still a nice alternate to Eldritch Knight... Definite keep in mind.

As before, waiting for responses to previous, previous post, before posting full build.

[JeminiZero]

Eh, just throwing out random ideas here.

Maybe take a few levels of warlock and go down eldritch theurge? Then you can build a semi-glaivelock for decent melee damage. Dark One's Luck helps with Cha synergy as well.

The other option I can think of is maybe a Martial Adept (Crusader or Unarmed Swordsage) splash, and some levels in Jade Phoenix Mage. Sacrifice some caster levels for Melee Maneuvers and high BAB.

You might want to look at is Binder/Anima Mage. Binder is one of the most versatile classes out there, provided you have the correct Vestige. And Anima Mage is one of the earliest PrCs you can get.

You could probably even mix Anima with Jade Phoenix Mage if you had a Neutral (Non-Evil and Non-Good) Character. E.g. 1 Sorcerer / 1 Binder / 1 Martial Adept / 7 Anima Mage / 10 JPM. This nets you 14 BAB, Level 16 Sorc, Level 8 Binder, and level 15 Martial Adept which qualifies you for level 8 Maneuvers (JPM is taken last as non-Martial Adept levels count as half towards Martial Adept levels).

[Keld Denar]

You should post exactly what feats/spells you are looking for to be "self sufficient", because it sounds like THERE is where you need to optimize. Once you figure out which creases you can iron out, the rest of the build becomes MUCH easier to work with. You might find out that certain feats and features are more easily aquired by other, more efficient means, freeing up resources like feats and skills, thus opening up more available PrCs.

Also, do you REALLY think your alignment is gonna swing THAT much that one of the 4 paladin ideals won't fit you? That seems kinda...no offense...odd. Paladin2 is a REALLY powerful dip because of how much Divine Grace boosts your saves. Being nearly Cha SAD, you can dump all your resources into it, increasing your spellcasting potency and survivability at the same time! If you absolutely don't want it, thats fine, we can build around that, but don't disregard it lightly. If you don't go with some flavor of paladin, then I'd actually suggest a wizard chassis as your font of power, rather than sorcerer. This will also give you more flexibility. If you are worried about spell slots/day, there is always specialization and focused specialization as well.

[riddles]

a bard is one of the most self sufficient characters out of the box due to versitility.

bard 10/Sublime chord 10 is nice, but your BAB will be horrible. at that point you are a caster with a focus on buffing due to bard song.

you *could* take arcane disciple - competition or war - to get divine power on your list but in any fight you want to be involved in will take you 2 rounds to get going (activate bard song, cast divine power), which might be too long in some cases, especially as you'll want something like mirror image up for defense (though greater mirror image as an immediate action takes care of that). not only that, it requires you have a minimm of 14 wisdom by level 9. can be done with an item, but you an't wear anything else in the neck slot. a dip into cloistered cleric will get you knowledge devotion (awesome given your skill points) and turn undead, which i did think could be used for DMM quicken, until i remembered that spontaneous casters get the shaft on quicken. so instead, take law devotion or divine might. it's feat intensive though, especially if you want to go with optimised bard song.

[Cybren]

Do both!!!

Bard1/Paladin2/Sorcerer6/EK1/SubChord2/AbjurantChamp5/EK+3

This gets you Cha to all saves, 3rd level sorcerer casting, 4-9th level SC casting. Abjurant Champion goodness. Only 15/20 BAB though, although you can make up for that with Arcane Disciple (War or Competition) to add Divine Powah to your spell list.

Also, Cha focus opens up cool feats like Law Devotion and Divine Might, allowing you to actually BEAT PEOPLE UP with your dashing good looks. Fun stuff.

Hope this helps, any questions?

You have to pick which casting class to apply eldricht knight to at EK1. You can't have your +1 casting levels count for something you take after EK 1.

" From 2nd level on, when a new eldritch knight level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class."

[Keld Denar]

Eh, whatever...EK is weaksause anyway. AbjChamp is better, and anything else can be filled by SacExorcist...

Along the lines of what Riddle said...you could do the Sublime Chord build, nab Metamagic Song (bardic DMM), Persist Spell, and Arcane Disciple (Competition). The you could Persist Divine Powah and Righteous Might, making you a melee powerhouse without any other investment....plus you still have full Sublime Chord casting!

Some feat investment there, so again, we'd have to know what these "self sufficient" feats you plan on taking are to see if they overlap with easily aquireable gear or spells. I'm thinking we'll be able to work something around somehow.