4ed- PC as a NPC

[incubus5075]

I was thinking of throwing a lvl 16 shadar-kai rogue pc class, with dailies, encounter powers level appropriate magic items, etc (basically a pc character) at our 4 person lvl 12 group. We have a swordmage, archer ranger, artificer, and a wizard. Will it be hard enough? Too hard? etc.. I'm thinking to keep the Hp the same since the assassin will be wearing displacer armor (roll two d20s take lower result to hit) This is the final boss to them trying to find the legendary assasin who took out a contract for the king, who the players work for. Suggestion on changes etc... I like using the pc class cause i want him to hit HARD, maybe drop two characters in a few turns, and then escape to be that good old reaccuring villian. However if the fight lasts longer I do not want to be saying he's doing the same attacks over and over. THis guy is suppose to be legendary, not boring. Also any ideas on terrain, additional foes, etc for the final battle. I haven't set up a place yet so anything in or around the FR city of Luskan is doable.

[FoE]

As thefinalbattle (a member of these boards) was able to prove, a high-level NPC on his own is not really any better than a high-level monster in 4E. In fact, against a large party, they're can be somewhat worse. If you insist on pitting this guy against the party by himself, don't bother with the NPC rules. Build him as a Solo monster. Otherwise, give him some help.

[Mr. Mud]

Note: The help doesn't have to be his lackeys. Don't forget to add traps, or terrain that the assassin gains some benefit from.

[Kylarra]

Due to action economy, solos, especially those without aoe, tend to be fodder for the average group. Give him some allies and have him hit hard once or twice and sneak off in the ensuing confusion. Assassins shouldn't stick around and fight you up front.

[CorvidMP]

If i remember correctly PC's basically count as elites, so to make him a solo just slap a template on him, say... vampire, or something similiar.

[incubus5075]

I understand the low hitpoints can be a problem but i think the displacer armor will change that a bit. No other monster fits the character concept and can hit as hard as a PC character. i'm thinking maybe adding some thief guild lackeys or maybe some shadow type monsters to help out the assassin or maybe a cool cinematic escape back up plan.....ideas?

[Kylarra]

I understand the low hitpoints can be a problem but i think the displacer armor will change that a bit. No other monster fits the character concept and can hit as hard as a PC character. i'm thinking maybe adding some thief guild lackeys or maybe some shadow type monsters to help out the assassin or maybe a cool cinematic escape back up plan.....ideas?

Rakshasa assassin maybe?


admittedly I just like rakshasa.

[incubus5075]

Also i plan on him being a master at planning out a hit ie building the battle ground to his liking. What kind of exciting, hindering but not overly annoying terrain/traps would work. I'm thinking dark shadows of course so that he can get CA most rounds and the first few turns the PCs maynot even be able to locate him.

[incubus5075]

The rakassha still have the illusion power? That could work since they already know him through reputation. He is Jasper Daeth'Emon The Hidden Blade. They think he is a man, in actuality he is a shadar-kai, a man with a touch of the shadow fell inside...

[Kylarra]

The rakassha still have the illusion power? That could work since they already know him through reputation. He is Jasper Daeth'Emon The Hidden Blade. They think he is a man, in actuality he is a shadar-kai, a man with a touch of the shadow fell inside...

Yep, at-will they can disguise themselves as any Medium Humanoid.

[Mando Knight]

I'd build him from the ground up as an elite or solo monster with the Shadar-Kai traits and the Rogue template, which grants access to Rogue powers for its statblock. This will mainly boost up his HP as compared to a normal Rogue, which is necessary to prolong the battle, especially if he's got some allies to help carve up the PCs while they try to take him down.

He won't have a huge array of powers to choose from (as compared to any other monster), but you could select one encounter power (preferably a lower-level one) to become an at-will, set the other one to recharge, and its daily as an encounter power. With two action points, it should be able to unleash pain in two rounds then escape easily.

Fleeting Ghost is a utility power I'd look into: it allows a Rogue to move at full speed and become hidden at the end of the movement without taking any kind of penalty.

[incubus5075]

I like that idea mando. Does the DNDI monster builder allow you to add templates? If so does it allow you to add the rogue powers?

[Mando Knight]

The Monster Builder doesn't allow you to apply templates directly yet. However, by referencing the template in the original material, you can add its effects. The additional powers can be added by using either the Builder's pre-existing selection of powers (and letting it auto-recalculate your bonuses) or by adding in a new power and cross-referencing it with the power's initial source or the Compendium.

Of note, there's a level 16 Doppelganger Skirmisher in Revenge of the Giants that could be switched over to a Shadar-Kai rogue by changing its weapon and racial powers, then adding in some more Rogue powers as necessary. Monster Builder auto-recalculates attack bonuses, damage bonuses, HP, etc. for you, making it a ridiculously useful tool for monster creation.

[tcrudisi]

I once tried doing something similar in 3.5. The result? He was losing (as expected), so he was trying to make his great escape. He threw down a smoke grenade to give himself concealment and attempt to sneak away. I then rolled a natural 1 on his stealth check. I know, a natural 1 is not an automatic failure, but it did make for a great memory when I acted out the guy trying to sneak away. The players looked at me and said, "so he's sneaking away?" I said, "No, you see him sneaking away like this, with smoke billowing out beside him." Cue me tip-toeing away slowly while hunched over. The players all had a great laugh over it as they quickly finished off my poor rogue, which was supposed to be a recurring villain.

Something on topic: I would make him using the Skirmisher rules from the DMG and then give him Rogue encounters and attack powers. This way you can make him a Solo encounter and give him appropriate hit points, defenses, and attack bonus. Otherwise, I would be afraid the players would dispose of him too quickly.

[Belobog]

Additionally, if you wanted him to be more of a threat without giving more hit points or the like, why not add an ability that allows him to act twice during a round? Roll two initiative checks, and have him act on both. Then again, I'm not skilled at balancing powers and abilities, so I don't know how well an ability like that could work out. Still, a thought.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Additionally, if you wanted him to be more of a threat without giving more hit points or the like, why not add an ability that allows him to act twice during a round? Roll two initiative checks, and have him act on both. Then again, I'm not skilled at balancing powers and abilities, so I don't know how well an ability like that could work out. Still, a thought.

You could definitely do it, but be prepared to tone down the attacks if they get too powerful. Sounds neat, though.

[Seatbelt]

Additionally, if you wanted him to be more of a threat without giving more hit points or the like, why not add an ability that allows him to act twice during a round? Roll two initiative checks, and have him act on both. Then again, I'm not skilled at balancing powers and abilities, so I don't know how well an ability like that could work out. Still, a thought.

I like this and am stealing it for all my 1 NPC v Party encounters from now on. Would have made a sniper encounter I ran yesterday much more interesting.

[Asbestos]

I like this and am stealing it for all my 1 NPC v Party encounters from now on. Would have made a sniper encounter I ran yesterday much more interesting.

I feel like there's something in the DMG2 that does this... but I don't have that book around. I do know that Ettins effectively have this ability.

[Drenn]

As far as traps and whatnot go, if they fight on a terrain that the assassin could have planned to face them on ahead of time, or even so long as its his home turf, think about planting traps that don't necessarily deal damage, but mix up the terrain a bit. Think hidden smoke bombs, or if it's outside, spore mushrooms. This can make things interesting for both the assassin and the PCs.

[Asbestos]

Here's a suggestion for the Final Battle. The Assassin makes use of his range 3 At-will teleport and general evilness by battling the PCs in a multitiered area with various innocent hostages set 15ft (3 squares) apart, chained to walls, hanging in cages, what not.

[Decoy Lockbox]

I've been tinkering around with the monster design for my 4e campaign, and I've started giving solos and elites extra actions. I give elites an extra standard action, and solos two extra standard actions. It makes getting dazed a real bitch, but its something. I also have my monsters with 75% of their base hp and increased damage to make the fights more menacing -- I usually use the "high normal" damage listing for a monster about 4 levels higher than the one I am making. I also give monsters way more powers than they "should" have.

The last boss-style solo my level 8 party fought was a huge-sized psionic lobster that I homebrewed. 300hp, good defenses, 3 standard actions per round, about 6 at-wills (a mix of claw attacks, water spewing and psionic powers), and 5 encounter powers, a good mix of close blasts/bursts, area bursts (including an area 2 within 20 dominate as per the bard's "song of dischord"), an at-will melee attack for about 4d8+7+grab, and a minor action telekinesis that could slide a creature 5 squares if it hit it's will defense (and it's attack bonii were very high).

Now, if you were strictly following the monster creation guidelines, this thing would be crazily overpowered. However, I thought my party could handle the challenge, and I was right; it ended up being a very difficult but memorable fight. Seeing the fighter and barbarian beating the piss out of each other while dominated was quite entertaining!

[Yakk]

So the problem with PC-built monsters are manyfold.

First, they have ridiculous alpha-strike capabilities for their toughness. All of those daily powers can do some serious hurt.

Second, they have abysmal HP, and when 5 players concentrate fire, you need multiple heals/round to keep yourself from going down.

Third, they are designed to work in a group even more than monsters are, and feed off each other.

Forth, they are lots of bother: you really don't care why their defence is 18 vs Reflex attacks. The PC rules are full of 'busywork' so a player can tweak this, that or the other thing and enjoy building their character: NPC rules are fast and loose, and generate similar output while skipping the details.

Basically, you can generate a similar effect by using the NPC/template class creation rules, instead of using the PC rules.

Solos, with their high HP and reasonable defences, give a pacing mechanism for the fight to last 'long enough' but not too long, while (hopefully) generating enough threat to make the result of the fight in question.

[incubus5075]

I like the idea of lowering solo's HP and increasing their dmg. I played world of darkness for years and one thing I really liked about the game was that you COULD die. Just to let you know if I was shot by 5 arrows, and hit with an executioner's axe i would be dead...the end.

My party has also mentioned the boringness whenever you are all out of encounter and dailies and the BBEG still isn't bloodied. The solo's don't hit very hard (which is why i was thinking of using a rogue PC as the villian, they hit HARD) but the siolo's HP are always massive so the only one taking a dent out of him in our party is the ranger, which makes the others feel useless.

[Yakk]

That is why you use DMG2/MM2 solos instead of MM1 solos.

The MM2 solos ramp up in power once bloodied.

[Drenn]

One idea for a battle-twist to keep interest going, or just have "woah!" factor would be to build a big, bad monster with a polymorph ability that disguises itself as either something much weaker, or much bigger and badder. Make it so that if it becomes bloodied, it shifts back to it's original form.

[Mando Knight]

Just to let you know if I was shot by 5 arrows, and hit with an executioner's axe i would be dead...the end.

You might be, but what about this guy?



Or one of these?