MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

[Azukar]

Grey Wolf C:

One small piece of information you could add to the first post:

(Minor SoD Spoiler)

Spoiler

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Its weight. It's light enough that Redcloak can (with some difficulty) lift it into a cart by himself. Including the box the creature is standing in.

Redcloak is a Cleric - his Strength can't be that high...

[Sky_Schemer]

Here's a "One Off" idea for the main page: a Wumpus.

This explains the peoples' reactions at the circus, the fact that big game hunters recognize it, that it was unexpected where it was found, etc. It is also recognizable by (probably much of) the readership given the target audience, and that it is an iconic figure in the old-school gaming scene.

It doesn't explain much else, though, excepting that it does give Rich some freedom to play with abilities and specifics without breaking the basics.

It also seems no worse off than most of the other ideas, and it certainly holds up better than the Grue.

[Selene]

I remember playing 1st Edition AD&D about 20 years ago and the DM didn't notice that Tarrasques were, well not Tarrasques but THE Tarrasque and so we ended up fighting a whole lot of the damm things. We were pretty high level at the time and armed with a LOT of powerful magic items, but they destroyed pretty much all of several kingdoms... but I digress.

Interesting. I never even heard of the tarrasque back in 1st edition. Do you happen to know which book it was in?

Grey Wolf C:

One small piece of information you could add to the first post:

(Minor SoD Spoiler)

Spoiler

Show

Its weight. It's light enough that Redcloak can (with some difficulty) lift it into a cart by himself. Including the box the creature is standing in.

Redcloak is a Cleric - his Strength can't be that high...

That's a good point. Even if we assume the Crimson Mantle grants RC bonus strength, the BGHs managed to move him as well.

Here's a "One Off" idea for the main page: a Wumpus.

A what, now?

[Sky_Schemer]

A what, now?

Ah. You just dated yourself.

A Wumpus!

[suryasm]

The Magic: The Gathering wumpus (which is the only one I know) is certainly very strong, but I don't remember any of the wumpus versions being flavor texted as capable of magical powers and spells. Unless they printed a Blue Wumpus that I don't know of.

Sorry, I don't see it.

The linnorm series of dragons, though, seems to fit even better than glabrezu. The dread linnorm, in fact seems to have the works. If the MitD is really a baby, it explains why he hasn't shown off the wizard spells yet, other than wish.

[Nerdanel]

But Wish is a ninth level spell... If the MitD could cast it as a wizard or sorcerer, he would be able to cast also many, many other spells.

I think we're too stuck with explaining "Escape" with Wish.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But Wish is a ninth level spell... If the MitD could cast it as a wizard or sorcerer, he would be able to cast also many, many other spells.

I think we're too stuck with explaining "Escape" with Wish.

The only credible alternative is the, as you put it, "non-Greater Teleport". Which creatures as strong as MitD are very unlikely to have, since after DC15 or so, they upgrade to Greater Teleport.

Mind you, I would say Greater Teleport works too, with Rich fudging the rules somewhat, but even taking that into account, notice how few creatures suggested actually have any teleport.

On the other hand, a very immature dread linnorm wouldn't have access to high level spells regularly, except in moments of extreme need when the inherent powers of his line can be brought forth.

That doesn't mean I buy it completely, though. It remains way too big. Even a baby version should have grown somewhat in 30 years. And, of course, there is the problem with the number of heads. But those are comparatively small problems compared with the fact it can explain both the escape and the circus scene.

Grey Wolf

[Nerdanel]

The only credible alternative is the, as you put it, "non-Greater Teleport". Which creatures as strong as MitD are very unlikely to have, since after DC15 or so, they upgrade to Greater Teleport.

Mind you, I would say Greater Teleport works too, with Rich fudging the rules somewhat, but even taking that into account, notice how few creatures suggested actually have any teleport.

Creatures don't upgrade to Greater Teleport if they don't get it. I don't think the MitD casts spells, but that he has psi-like and/or spell-like abilities, and the lists of those tend to be a lot more limited than the actual spells that casters get.

The Phrenic template grants Psionic Teleport but it does NOT grant Greater Psionic Teleport. Indeed, templates combined with a powerful base creature work as an effective impediment to getting much in the way of actual spells, since they give level adjustment, making leveling-up difficult. Maybe the MitD has one level in Wilder and gets his Stomp from there with the Expanded Knowledge feat but he would be very unlikely to have enough character levels to manifest higher level powers that way.

Fatigue Breakthrough: I think the MitD may have used the Wilder's Wild Surge (Su) to augment the Stomp beyond his normal limits, but suffered Psychic Enervation (Ex) right after, which dazed him for a turn and drained his power points (possibly leaving him with none).

Pushing oneself by invoking a wild surge is dangerous. Immediately following each wild surge, a wilder may be overcome by the strain of her effort.

On the other hand, a very immature dread linnorm wouldn't have access to high level spells regularly, except in moments of extreme need when the inherent powers of his line can be brought forth.

I think there's nothing to imply that creatures in the OOTS world can cast spells many levels higher than they should be capable of under any circumstances. That would just break the game. So you are triumphing against a powerful and challenging enemy like the Mother Black Dragon and just when you're finally about to win, it whips out an Empowered Maximized Meteor Swarm it didn't have the round before...

By the way, if you're thinking about Xykon in SoD, I think the spell he accidentally cast as a child was Animate Dead Animal, a first level non-core spell. A level 1 sorcerer, which Xykon presumably counted as despite his youth, as the talent of a sorcerer is inborn, can take Animate Dead Animal as a known spell, which is not the case with the more powerful Animate Dead, which would have been above his level. (I also think Xykon ground XP starting with birds and such so that he was a mid-level sorcerer in his teens. Thus the XP system in D&D rewards budding serial killers.)

[AlexanderRM]

Just my two cents, I get the general impression that if we're looking at pure logic- not considering that we have to check our image against existing D&D monsters- the MitD's powers are probably nearly all innate, not gained from classes or whatever (I'd speculate that things like innate spells which require you to prepare spells or choose spells known are probably also unlikely).

Basically all the abilities he uses are used accidentally, often without knowledge that he COULD do that at all, which makes it seem unlikely that he took levels in a class in order to gain that ability.

[derfenrirwolv]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html

Forshadows the MITD's ability to cast wish.. he gets what he wants, and is surprised when that DOESN"T happen. I think that he keeps wishing for things but only really gets them when either 1) he absolutely needs them or 2) he earns enough xp to use it again. The latter is pretty much role playing experience only, as there's nothing with a high enough cr to actually challange him, not to mention he's stuck in da box.

[Shale]

Creatures don't upgrade to Greater Teleport if they don't get it.

Yeah, but most creatures above DC15 or so get Greater Teleport, not Teleport. That's the upgrade, not a single creature going from one spell to the other as it gets stronger.

[SavageWombat]

I'm starting to think that MitD isn't in a monster book at all.

Everyone's done such a thorough job of combing the books, and coming up with no answer that fits everything, that I don't think there's any point in continuing to look there.

After all, Rich didn't say it was possible to "find it in a D&D book", just that it was possible to guess.

Maybe we need to look harder at myths and legends instead.

Or Pokemon.

[Nerdanel]

Yeah, but most creatures above DC15 or so get Greater Teleport, not Teleport. That's the upgrade, not a single creature going from one spell to the other as it gets stronger.

So that means it's unlikely that the MitD is those creatures then. Was any of them among the top choices in the first place?

A Phrenic Tarrasque is CR 23 if you don't add anything extra on top of it, and it has Psionic Teleport and no Greater Psionic Teleport.

The simplest template-based explanation for the MitD yet:
Phrenic Tarrasque Wilder 1

Pro:
- Explains "Escape" (Psionic Teleport as a psi-like ability)
- Explans "Stomp" (Stomp used as a Wilder through Expanded Knowledge)

Con:
- Questionable if strong enough without extra templates
- Might not look weird enough without extra templates
- Would have needed to roll very well on int instead of using standard ability scores without extra templates
- Questionable if speech is explained well enough without extra templates

[averagejoe]

Here's a "One Off" idea for the main page: a Wumpus.

This explains the peoples' reactions at the circus, the fact that big game hunters recognize it, that it was unexpected where it was found, etc. It is also recognizable by (probably much of) the readership given the target audience, and that it is an iconic figure in the old-school gaming scene.

It doesn't explain much else, though, excepting that it does give Rich some freedom to play with abilities and specifics without breaking the basics.

It also seems no worse off than most of the other ideas, and it certainly holds up better than the Grue.

Yes, but, as was just mentioned, MitD is light enough for RC to lift. I don't think RC is stronger than a super bat.

Just my two cents, I get the general impression that if we're looking at pure logic- not considering that we have to check our image against existing D&D monsters- the MitD's powers are probably nearly all innate, not gained from classes or whatever (I'd speculate that things like innate spells which require you to prepare spells or choose spells known are probably also unlikely).

Basically all the abilities he uses are used accidentally, often without knowledge that he COULD do that at all, which makes it seem unlikely that he took levels in a class in order to gain that ability.

Class levels should probably be treated like people have been treating templates; too many strain what is "guessable." Plus any classes that require training to take are definitely right out.

The problem I have with the Tarrasque is that nothing especially points to the Tarrasque. People just needed a big/strong/tough monster, so people picked the most iconic likelihood. Unless there's something unique about the Tarrasque that makes it a better fit than any generic big/strong/tough monster, I really can't see it as being the one. I suppose Rich's statement (that one should be able to guess what the MitD is) doesn't actually preclude there being several possibilities, each of which are identically preferred given the facts, since it's "able to guess" and not, "able to know," but even so it doesn't sit right with me.

[lio45]

Considering the pic at the link below, I believe a Linnorm would be consistent with some of the public vomiting:

http://www.elftown.com/_Linnorm

I think a one-headed Corpse Tearer could be a candidate, even with the cons already pointed out six months ago in this post. 'Cause at least it's got the right number of heads. Could it be small enough to fit?

[Selene]

Ah. You just dated yourself.

A Wumpus!

Hmmm... yeah in 1972 I was 3.

[golentan]

I have to ask, why is everyone so fixated in the starter lists on explaining O'Chul's escape by SLA? We know is a creature which can't normally talk, say the base creature has an int of 2. The idea the can cast spells is so outlandish that Redcloak is casually dismissive when he offers to help animate some zombies, and nobody even thinks to look twice at him when his best friend vanishes in a puff of magic. I'm fairly sure Redcloak will have read up on his statblock given prior examples of sourcebook use. And if such abilities were normal I'm fairly sure team evil would have tried to harness them by now. I'm 90-95% sure that we're looking for a Large creature with an INT of 2 and no SLA, probably from the epic monster list but possibly from high CR normal SRD material.

[Hatchet]

The biggest trouble with the Tarrasque is that it's too big and that it's unique, right?

However, we know that dragons can and will mate with basically anything. I know templates are frowned upon, but the MiTD being the Half-Dragon son of the Tarrasque is actually a pretty good fit. It explains the size (it's still a child), the strength and appetite, the way he remembered his father to be huge with an even bigger appetite, the fact that it can talk while it normally shouldn't (int boost from being half-dragon), being horrible (tarrasque) yet beautiful (dragon), and his innate magical talent. The tarrasque is reptilian to begin with, so adding half-dragon wouldn't make it unrecognisable, yet it would be unlikely enough that even a wizard could say "I've never seen anything like it".

Granted, I don't know what kind of half-dragon he could be. I don't know any that have Wish-like SLAs, but maybe it's just some obscure type of dragon, or it only manifests when you have high enough hit dice. I'm willing to ignore such inconsistencies

[Nerdanel]

Phrenic Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque Wilder 1

While the chromatic and metallic dragons have innate sorcerer powers, the gem dragons have innate psionic powers. If the fluff has it so that sorcerers have draconic ancestry (presumably chromatic or metallic), is there a counterpart to that with gem dragon ancestry? If psionic powers in the OOTS world are limited to having been descended from very rare (if not extinct) dragons, it could explain why psionic classes/phrenic templates are so rare.

A crystal dragon is Always Chaotic Neutral with a personality description that I think fits the MitD remarkably well. An amethyst dragon (Always True Neutral) is also a possibility, but I don't think it fits as well personality-wise.

Wish SLA isn't needed due to the Phrenic template that gives Psionic Teleport 3/day and thus suffices to explain "Escape". (The MitD's teleporting experiments didn't work because this time he wasn't touching the targets.)

[DavidBV]

I have to ask, why is everyone so fixated in the starter lists on explaining O'Chul's escape by SLA? We know is a creature which can't normally talk, say the base creature has an int of 2. The idea the can cast spells is so outlandish that Redcloak is casually dismissive when he offers to help animate some zombies, and nobody even thinks to look twice at him when his best friend vanishes in a puff of magic. I'm fairly sure Redcloak will have read up on his statblock given prior examples of sourcebook use. And if such abilities were normal I'm fairly sure team evil would have tried to harness them by now. I'm 90-95% sure that we're looking for a Large creature with an INT of 2 and no SLA, probably from the epic monster list but possibly from high CR normal SRD material.

mmmm interesting point of view. If must be a critter which is mostly based in physical power, ie, eating enemies. Now for some reason it seems to have a SLA to cast Wish. Also no one has ever given a good explanation for the sudden sleep after using his powers. But where does the spellcraft come from if it's a "silly" race? Maybe because it's half bred with other race and it's more intellectual powers are awaking now?

[golentan]

mmmm interesting point of view. If must be a critter which is mostly based in physical power, ie, eating enemies. Now for some reason it seems to have a SLA to cast Wish. Also no one has ever given a good explanation for the sudden sleep after using his powers. But where does the spellcraft come from if it's a "silly" race? Maybe because it's half bred with other race and it's more intellectual powers are awaking now?

Or perhaps Rich decided that the statblock should read "A ______ with an int of X or better gains the following SLAs." And it never came up because it has a listed int of 2, and so could never meet the qualifications.

Again, we know the monster in the darkness to be, among other things, instantly recognizable, and a bizarre specimen of it's species in several ways. Enough for the archeologists and team evil to comment on the weirdness.

Unfortunately, I've had real trouble finding an appropriate monster. At the moment I'm back at Baby Tarrasque, (Int 3, massively tough, cannot speak, "Why on earth would a baby be running around?"). A -8 int modifier would be a massive penalty to overcome, but provides justification for a higher int. It's relatively low CR, but we know Xykon likes letting heroes go so he can become a recurring villain (when it isn't inconvenient at least), so a CR 15-20 creature would be an appropriate boss fight to scare them off in the first arc. And with up to 48 hit die if it begins casting as an anything of even half it's level, well.

[lio45]

Phrenic Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque Wilder 1

While the chromatic and metallic dragons have innate sorcerer powers, the gem dragons have innate psionic powers. If the fluff has it so that sorcerers have draconic ancestry (presumably chromatic or metallic), is there a counterpart to that with gem dragon ancestry? If psionic powers in the OOTS world are limited to having been descended from very rare (if not extinct) dragons, it could explain why psionic classes/phrenic templates are so rare.

A crystal dragon is Always Chaotic Neutral with a personality description that I think fits the MitD remarkably well. An amethyst dragon (Always True Neutral) is also a possibility, but I don't think it fits as well personality-wise.

Wish SLA isn't needed due to the Phrenic template that gives Psionic Teleport 3/day and thus suffices to explain "Escape". (The MitD's teleporting experiments didn't work because this time he wasn't touching the targets.)

But wouldn't that thing be "something Rich made up"? (Which we know the MitD is NOT.)

I'm not that familiar with D&D, but I would be surprised to learn that a half-dragon/half-Tarrasque is a "regular" monster...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

think a one-headed Corpse Tearer could be a candidate, even with the cons already pointed out six months ago in this post. 'Cause at least it's got the right number of heads. Could it be small enough to fit?

The Corpse tearer either has access to priest spells (thus not possibly MitD) or doesn't have access to wish spells. lothos went through the whole linnorm family tree, and the only one that fit properly was Dread.

I have to ask, why is everyone so fixated in the starter lists on explaining O'Chul's escape by SLA? We know is a creature which can't normally talk, say the base creature has an int of 2. The idea the can cast spells is so outlandish that Redcloak is casually dismissive when he offers to help animate some zombies, and nobody even thinks to look twice at him when his best friend vanishes in a puff of magic.

Spell-like abilities, or SLA, are not spells. They are abilities of a creature that work like the spell. That is why irrespective of intelligence MitD could access them, and why we consider creatures with SLAs.

Also, I've noticed a few other mistakes in your statement: just because it can't talk it doesn't mean INT 2. Take the Protean, INT 20 and no languages. RC dismisses his offer to help because MitD doesn't have access to cleric spells, not because he doesn't have any abilities at all. And finally, when his best friend vanishes, all but 1 people look at him: at that point, only the roaches and Xykon are present, and the roaches certainly do look at him.

I'm fairly sure Redcloak will have read up on his statblock given prior examples of sourcebook use. And if such abilities were normal I'm fairly sure team evil would have tried to harness them by now.

No, they wouldn't have. Xykon is very clear that he intends to keep MitD in the shadows until the big reveal. RC would not go against that, and Xykon clearly lets his dramatic sense get the better of tactics and common sense.

I'm 90-95% sure that we're looking for a Large creature with an INT of 2 and no SLA, probably from the epic monster list but possibly from high CR normal SRD material.

I can only tell you the same I have told everyone that came here and told us we were doing it all wrong: put your time were your mouth is, and propose one such creature.

The biggest trouble with the Tarrasque is that it's too big and that it's unique, right?

No, those are two of the problems with Tarrasque. There is also the lack of abilities that explain MitD's actions, and its comparative weakness (i.e. sure, it is a powerful creature, but not in the same league as linnorms, ancient silver dragons, proteans, etc.).

However, we know that dragons can and will mate with basically anything. I know templates are frowned upon, but the MiTD being the Half-Dragon son of the Tarrasque is actually a pretty good fit.

See, I don't agree with that. I don't think that the Tarrasque can reproduce at all. Not with a dragon, not with anything. A creature that there is only one of doesn't need or have, in regular fantasy, the ability to reproduce at all (I'm thinking Aldur's Vale Tree in Belgariad, for example).

Yes, "the rules say...". I am aware, Nerdanel and I went through this already. I remain convinced that Tarrasque cannot reproduce as one of its most central and basic characteristics, and rules lawyering won't change that, and neither will nonsensical statements from Elan, for that matter.

It explains the size (it's still a child),

It doesn't explain why after 30 years it is still the same ridiculously small size. Dragons grow very quickly once out of the egg.

the strength

No, it doesn't explain the size. A hatchling half-dragon Tarrasque, assuming such thing could exist, couldn't possibly be that strong. Take a look at dragon growth tables, and note, first, that the smallest they get are already bigger than MitD and, second, that the smallest they get are nowhere near strong enough.

adding half-dragon wouldn't make it unrecognisable, yet it would be unlikely enough that even a wizard could say "I've never seen anything like it".

And this is the other, major problem with the whole templates idea: that the hunters call it "one of these", indicating that, while rare, MitD's type is part of a group. Either it looks like Tarrasque, which is supposed to be unique, or it looks like a dragon, which is not that rare, or there are enough half-dragon Tarrasques running around they are a group unto themselves. None of those three scenarios sounds plausible to me.

Or perhaps Rich decided that the statblock should read "A ______ with an int of X or better gains the following SLAs." And it never came up because it has a listed int of 2, and so could never meet the qualifications.

If he did such thing, it wouldn't be guessable, and in addition, probably would break his own assurance of not having invented MitD.

Again, we know the monster in the darkness to be, among other things, instantly recognizable, and a bizarre specimen of it's species in several ways. Enough for the archeologists and team evil to comment on the weirdness.

The hunters (not "archeologists") didn't comment on anything weird about MitD. They recognised it, said they didn't expect to see one in the jungle (but they might have seen others like him elsewhere). Team evil also didn't remark on anything weird about him, so no idea where that came from.

Also, it is not "instantly recognizable". Yes, those that recognise it do so instantly, because that's how our brains work. You look at a furry small four legged creature that barks, and immediately know it to be a dog. But the spectators of the circus, including the wizard-looking guy, don't recognise it, cementing that it is a rare creature..

Unfortunately, I've had real trouble finding an appropriate monster. At the moment I'm back at Baby Tarrasque, (Int 3, massively tough, cannot speak, "Why on earth would a baby be running around?"). A -8 int modifier would be a massive penalty to overcome, but provides justification for a higher int. It's relatively low CR, but we know Xykon likes letting heroes go so he can become a recurring villain (when it isn't inconvenient at least), so a CR 15-20 creature would be an appropriate boss fight to scare them off in the first arc. And with up to 48 hit die if it begins casting as an anything of even half it's level, well.

But a baby cannot have the same CR of a grown Tarrasque, specially not when it is a 20th of its final size. And you have not addressed all the other problems with Tarrasque.

------------

Taking another look at the Protean, I've just realised an ability that I had not noticed before:

Alter Shape (Ex)
A protean can assume the shape of any combination of physical nondeific creatures at the same time as a free action. In fact, a protean’s form constantly boils, and it requires a move-equivalent action each round for a protean to maintain a certain shape (even if that shape is a combination of several shapes). Whatever its present form, the protean retains all its own special qualities. Plus, it gains the advantage of up to four extraordinary abilities from the forms it mimics (but not spell-like or supernatural powers).

(bolded by me)

This basically gives Rich a blank check on MitD abilities. He only needs to find a medium or large sized creature with the appropriate extraordinary abilities he needs. Is there any creature that has (non-greater) teleport as an extraordinary ability? How about wish?

It would both explain why he suddenly could do it when he couldn't make it work until he was almost run out of time, and why it won't work later - he has simply moved on to another shape. He is clearly unaware of his capabilities, so he wouldn't control what he changes into, either.

Grey Wolf

[factotum]

This basically gives Rich a blank check on MitD abilities. He only needs to find a medium or large sized creature with the appropriate extraordinary abilities he needs.

Assuming the MitD is a D&D monster, which it may not be.

[golentan]

Spell-like abilities, or SLA, are not spells. They are abilities of a creature that work like the spell. That is why irrespective of intelligence MitD could access them, and why we consider creatures with SLAs.

There are precedents for Ability Dependent SLAs.

Also, I've noticed a few other mistakes in your statement: just because it can't talk it doesn't mean INT 2. Take the Protean, INT 20 and no languages. RC dismisses his offer to help because MitD doesn't have access to cleric spells, not because he doesn't have any abilities at all. And finally, when his best friend vanishes, all but 1 people look at him: at that point, only the roaches and Xykon are present, and the roaches certainly do look at him.

Granted. I'll widen my search parameters. But are you seriously invoking the roaches, who are infamously brutal on the fourth wall, as evidence that in world knowledge is sufficient to tip off the existence of SLAs?

No, they wouldn't have. Xykon is very clear that he intends to keep MitD in the shadows until the big reveal. RC would not go against that, and Xykon clearly lets his dramatic sense get the better of tactics and common sense.

I believe the consensus (correct me if I'm wrong) is that Wish as an SLA is the most likely candidate, correct? The same spell that can duplicate lower level spell effects. Like Raise Undead, which was so casually dismissed by redcloak and why divine casting monsters have been ruled out. The same Redcloak who read all kinds of sourcebooks so he could find obscure monsters and obscure interrogation techniques, and who has little loyalty to Xykon's dramatic sense. A spell which could easily be employed without revealing the monster.

I can only tell you the same I have told everyone that came here and told us we were doing it all wrong: put your time were your mouth is, and propose one such creature.

Like I said, I'm working on it. For heaven's sakes, you've been debating this how long? And after pointing out a possibility that could widen the search parameters, I'm expected to have a solution in just one day? I spent more than an hour browsing statblocks yesterday. I'm not trying to imply you're doing it wrong, I'm asking why the assumption is that the base monster has all the abilities demonstrated by the plot driven and known exceptional version as written by Rich to the needs of his story and for the sake of keeping the audience in suspense? I'm not telling you you've been doing it wrong, I'm trying to contribute by challenging some of the assumptions that have ruled out some obvious candidates and left us with a mass of bizarre candidates which don't seem to mesh well with Rich's statements and known observations.

The hunters (not "archeologists") didn't comment on anything weird about MitD. They recognised it, said they didn't expect to see one in the jungle (but they might have seen others like him elsewhere). Team evil also didn't remark on anything weird about him, so no idea where that came from.

Also, it is not "instantly recognizable". Yes, those that recognise it do so instantly, because that's how our brains work. You look at a furry small four legged creature that barks, and immediately know it to be a dog. But the spectators of the circus, including the wizard-looking guy, don't recognise it, cementing that it is a rare creature..

"It. Talks." "Odd to find one here." So yes, abnormal for a specimen of its kind. Implied unusual alignment from some offhand comments by O'Chul, the Roaches, and Team Evil.

It has been stated by Rich that when the MitD is revealed nobody will go "Wait, what is it?" So yes, it is instantly recognizable. At least to the audience, and to sufficiently universe aware characters.

But a baby cannot have the same CR of a grown Tarrasque, specially not when it is a 20th of its final size. And you have not addressed all the other problems with Tarrasque.

Like I said, that's what I keep coming back to. I don't think it's necessarily right, but if we give it some SLAs, and if we don't assume Xykon is keeping it around because it is on or near par with him... Again, I'm looking for other things.

[Kish]

It has been stated by Rich that when the MitD is revealed nobody will go "Wait, what is it?"

That's still Telephone Game. From the first post in this thread:

I will say this much: It is possible to guess.
That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story. It wouldn't be any fun for the answer to a mystery to be something I invented just for one purpose, would it? I won't finally throw back the darkness and have someone say, "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster.
I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually.

That is what he said. Nothing there rules out it being something from a really obscure D&D supplement that exactly one reader recognizes; he only ruled out it being something purely made up by him.

[Nerdanel]

That text also doesn't rule out something that was assembled using pre-existing lego blocks, like templates and class levels. This could be exactly why the reference to a fine line is there.

I don't think inability to reproduce counts as "one of its most central and basic characteristics" when it explicitly isn't in force in Planescape. And since Planescape is a metasetting, that means that "one of its most central and basic characteristics" doesn't apply in places like Greyhawk either, if they are part of Planescape, which Greyhawk is, among other settings. And since Greyhawk is the default setting of the Third Edition, that means that "one of its most central and basic characteristics" isn't in force in default 3.5.

Thus we can conclude that the tarrasque default is capable of reproduction, but its methods of reproduction do not include parthenogenesis. It can't make tarrasque babies without a suitable mate, which are hard to find when it's the only one of its species on a planet.

By the way, the MitD's original home should be a place with little to no sun, blue sky, or fresh air. Based on its comments in the jungle, those things sound new to him. Somewhere underground could fit, as could other planes, and on the off-chance maybe places with a really terrible weather and/or pollution problem.

[TriForce]

Taking another look at the Protean, I've just realised an ability that I had not noticed before:

(bolded by me)

This basically gives Rich a blank check on MitD abilities. He only needs to find a medium or large sized creature with the appropriate extraordinary abilities he needs. Is there any creature that has (non-greater) teleport as an extraordinary ability? How about wish?

It would both explain why he suddenly could do it when he couldn't make it work until he was almost run out of time, and why it won't work later - he has simply moved on to another shape. He is clearly unaware of his capabilities, so he wouldn't control what he changes into, either.

Grey Wolf

Extraordenairy abilities are by default non-magical, they work in a antimagic field, and while stretching belief, they cannot reproduce abilities like teleport or wish. or sending people to another continent in the blink of a eye :)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Assuming the MitD is a D&D monster, which it may not be.

Yes, obviously. But even more so, I'd say, "assuming it is a Protean", which is what I was suggesting at the time. Not sure why that'd be such a momentous thing to point out, though. I am suggesting a possibility, and thus, yes, I kind of assume it may be right.

There are precedents for Ability Dependent SLAs.

OK, now you've lost me. You started saying that MitD's abilities couldn't be SLAs because they would count as spells, and since MitDs base creature almost certainly can't talk, it can't cast spells. I countered that SLA are abilities, and thus work even if the creature can't talk. Now you tell me gnomes can both talk and have SLAs... I'm sorry, I really don't see what the point is. I still think that non-talking creatures can have SLAs.

Granted. I'll widen my search parameters. But are you seriously invoking the roaches, who are infamously brutal on the fourth wall, as evidence that in world knowledge is sufficient to tip off the existence of SLAs?

Yes, I am invoking them because we have canon that they are far more aware of MitD's abilities than MitD himself.

I believe the consensus (correct me if I'm wrong) is that Wish as an SLA is the most likely candidate, correct?

Doing a strict reading of teleport (which requires touching), yes, wish would be the only reasonable explanation for the escape, if Rich was not bending the rules. BUT, I think Nerdanel found a much better one, the (non-Greater) Teleport.

The same spell that can duplicate lower level spell effects. Like Raise Undead, which was so casually dismissed by redcloak and why divine casting monsters have been ruled out. The same Redcloak who read all kinds of sourcebooks so he could find obscure monsters and obscure interrogation techniques, and who has little loyalty to Xykon's dramatic sense.

RC is so tied to the Plan that he killed his own brother instead of taking a shot a Xykon. Notice he did not say a peep when Xykon told him to not regenerate an eye. When Xykon says "jump", RC is in the air before even asking "how high?"

Yes, RC and Xykon could be milking MitD's abilities. But they aren't, even though it is very powerful, because Xykon saves it for "showdowns" (read: emergencies). That's just how Rich has written it - the same way they charged at the walls with a goblin army, even though RC, Xykon and MitD could probably have achieved the same thing on their own.

Like I said, I'm working on it. For heaven's sakes, you've been debating this how long? And after pointing out a possibility that could widen the search parameters, I'm expected to have a solution in just one day?

See, next time lets us know you are working on it. Otherwise, you just sound like a backseat driver. I look forward to what you dig out.

It has been stated by Rich that when the MitD is revealed nobody will go "Wait, what is it?" So yes, it is instantly recognizable. At least to the audience, and to sufficiently universe aware characters.

No, Rich has said no such thing. At all.

Grey Wolf

[Dancing_Fox]

Grey Wolf C:

One small piece of information you could add to the first post:

(Minor SoD Spoiler)

Spoiler

Show

Its weight. It's light enough that Redcloak can (with some difficulty) lift it into a cart by himself. Including the box the creature is standing in.

Redcloak is a Cleric - his Strength can't be that high...

I read through the entry for "Size" at the start of this thread.
I didn't see an entry for "Weight" - but if there isn't a section, then maybe there should be, based on the above post.

Most of the information that to be had on "size" is bounded by the observation that the MitD 'fits under an umbrella.'

I was wondering if this could be relied on for sizing information though? It is after all, a "magical umbrella." Could the umbrella contain some extra-dimensional space, which lets a huge creature fit under it? Like using the Rope Trick to enter a space big enough to sleep in.

Practically speaking, there would be some use for this - it means that you could manoeuvre the MitD around easier, for example, through human sized doorways.

QUESTION: Where have we seen the MitD's size constrained when it is NOT under the influence of the umbrella?

I can remember "large area" locations, such as the magical darkness in the castle - but the darkness there was pretty large, not small like the umbrella. And there was no need to move the MitD to be in anything other than a large room.

So if anyone can point to examples where a non-umbrelled MitD did things like move from one room to another through a human sized doorway, that may set an upper constraint on height and width. (Not necessarily length - could be long like a big snake. Doesn't constrain if it doesn't have a rigid shape either, like gas or jelly.)

Similarly.

QUESTION: Where, aside from the SOD example above, have we seen indications of the MitD's weight?

For example, deep footprints in the ground where others are not leaving them, the MitD crossing a rickety wooden bridge or other tell-tales.

The SOD example, could be explained (hypothetically), like the umbrella, by being a "magical container." The container is adjusting the weight - just like a bag of holding does.

So some "non-container" evidence of weight is needed.

Evidence like strength is a proxy - it has been reasoned that a massive creature is needed to be so strong. But how about evidence for weight, per se, and not strength?