OOTS #702 - The Discussion Thread

[Cbh66]

It's entertaining and seeing other people's views on things can help you to understand things you may have missed.

[Shale]

So? It's pointless to do a lot of things. We do them anyway because they're fun.

[Teleporker]

SoD spoilers ahead (No, I don't have the book, this is based on spoilers from other spoilers, but what the heck!):

Spoiler

Show

I understand that the whole purpose of the plan orchestrated by the Dark One is to use the Snarl to force the gods into doing something related to making goblinkind superior (someone please post me a spoiler on this), however the rift is already open in three places, and the view to the other side is, as far as we know, another world, not a Snarl reaching over to destroy it all... for now...

So, with the rift open and nothing happening, despite the fact that Team Evil knows the Snarl has reached out and destroyed whatever it can reach, shouldn't that ring a bell? At least with Redcloak? Shouldn't this be telling him "Hey, the big thing on the other side, the one you're supposed to use to blackmail the gods... the one that destroys passing adventurers from a hole the size of a lemon? Not moving!"

Busy as he is with Gobbotopia, don't you think he should be paying more attention to the fact that there is way less activity in this huge rift than there has been in smaller ones? I mean, one crucial element of the plan is at risk here.

Or, there is once again something I haven't read that explains it...

[Cbh66]

He tried to find out with those prisoners, but aside from sacrificing some of the new nation's workforce, I don't think there's a whole lot he can do to research it. He may be worried about it, but he probably thinks that actually getting his hands on a gate is the more pressing issue. Once he gets one, again, is when he will worry about the absence of the Snarl.

[Kome]

I don't care. And I never said you couldn't discuss it. I'm just saying it's rather pointless -too- discuss something that you can't change.

I am under no illusion that anything I say will affect what Rich has planned for the comic. What I'm discussing is how I interpret how Rich has portrayed things thus far and my rationale for my interpretation.

It's far from pointless. Fiction gives us things to think about. In a very real sense, those of us having the discussion about Redcloak, the goblins, the Paladins and such gets us thinking about morality and ethics and good and evil.

Maybe, in these kinds of discussions about an abstract topic in the framework of a specific medium, someone learns something about how they view such and such. Maybe if another forum-goer challenges their opinion, they may feel the need to find a stronger way to defend it, or alter it to something that makes more sense.

But, hey, it's not as if this kind of discussion is anything new around here and it's not as if you're required to participate. You're more than welcome to not waste any of your time on people who do something you consider pointless.

[Shale]

Busy as he is with Gobbotopia, don't you think he should be paying more attention to the fact that there is way less activity in this huge rift than there has been in smaller ones? I mean, one crucial element of the plan is at risk here.

Or, there is once again something I haven't read that explains it...

Yes, that was directly addressed (though not actually explained; he doesn't know what's going on either) here.

[Nimrod's Son]

I don't care. And I never said you couldn't discuss it. I'm just saying it's rather pointless -too- discuss something that you can't change.

So... about as pointless as pointing out that these discussions are pointless, then? PRISTINE irony there, nicely done.

[RMS Oceanic]

SoD spoilers ahead (No, I don't have the book, this is based on spoilers from other spoilers, but what the heck!):

Spoiler

Show

I understand that the whole purpose of the plan orchestrated by the Dark One is to use the Snarl to force the gods into doing something related to making goblinkind superior (someone please post me a spoiler on this), however the rift is already open in three places, and the view to the other side is, as far as we know, another world, not a Snarl reaching over to destroy it all... for now...

So, with the rift open and nothing happening, despite the fact that Team Evil knows the Snarl has reached out and destroyed whatever it can reach, shouldn't that ring a bell? At least with Redcloak? Shouldn't this be telling him "Hey, the big thing on the other side, the one you're supposed to use to blackmail the gods... the one that destroys passing adventurers from a hole the size of a lemon? Not moving!"

Busy as he is with Gobbotopia, don't you think he should be paying more attention to the fact that there is way less activity in this huge rift than there has been in smaller ones? I mean, one crucial element of the plan is at risk here.

Or, there is once again something I haven't read that explains it...

The summary of the Dark One's story:

Spoiler

Show

Some time after the world was (re)created, the Gods realised their Clerics were too squishy to fight the monsters they had made and level up. To counter this, they created a collection of sentient races deliberately designed as XP fodder. Goblins, Hobgoblins, Bugbears, Kobolds and the like. They placed these races in the most barren areas of the world, to prevent them developing on par with Elves or Dwarves.

Then a violet skinned goblin was born, and he united the various goblinoid races into a massive army. After conquering some stuff, he called a parley with the Human leaders, for all he wanted was enough land and resources so Goblins could prosper. At the talks however, he was (literally) backstabbed by the humans, killed by an assassin they hired. The army he had raised went on a rampage over the next year. The passionate devotion the goblins felt to him caused him to be raised as a God, where he could see that it was not just unfortunate economics that put the Goblins on the back foot, but the deliberate machinations of the gods, which he was displeased with.

The ritual he gave down to the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle is meant to allow him to move the gates that the Order of the Scribble built to anywhere in the cosmos, and open them at will, opening a Snarl-powered can of whoopass on, say, a bunch of jerk Gods who made his race the way it is. With his finger on such a weapon, the Gods would have to listen to his demands, namely giving Goblins equal status to Elves and Dwarves.

[KiwiImperator]

You know what's funny? This entire paladin not falling issue could've been avoided if adult goblins weren't medium creatures, and the difference in size between goblins and their young weren't so profound. Then, nobody would blame some mook of a paladin for not differentiating between a young'un and an adult.

[Kish]

You know what's funny? This entire paladin not falling issue could've been avoided if adult goblins weren't medium creatures, and the difference in size between goblins and their young weren't so profound. Then, nobody would blame some mook of a paladin for not differentiating between a young'un and an adult.

Or, for that matter, Rich could have avoided it by just not showing any noncombatant goblins onstage. It's like he actually wanted to show the paladins doing something horrible and not falling!

...Oh, wait.

[KiwiImperator]

Or, for that matter, Rich could have avoided it by just not showing any noncombatant goblins onstage. It's like he actually wanted to show the paladins doing something horrible and not falling!

...Oh, wait.

Was that the point? I figured there was just something that we didn't know that mitigated the horrible nature of what we (Redcloak) witnessed.

[factotum]

You know what's funny? This entire paladin not falling issue could've been avoided if adult goblins weren't medium creatures, and the difference in size between goblins and their young weren't so profound. Then, nobody would blame some mook of a paladin for not differentiating between a young'un and an adult.

Actually, they could and would still be blamed for that. A paladin is supposed to hold themselves to a higher code than your common or garden Lawful Good type, and that includes not randomly slaughtering without first establishing who it is you're killing...

[Optimystik]

Was that the point? I figured there was just something that we didn't know that mitigated the horrible nature of what we (Redcloak) witnessed.

Of course there was - his baby sister was packing a .45 aimed at the president.

[Conuly]

Was that the point? I figured there was just something that we didn't know that mitigated the horrible nature of what we (Redcloak) witnessed.

Yes, of course, everything is in stark black-and-white, good guys and bad guys, and there's no chance for the "good guys" to do something wrong or the "bad guys" to have a good point.

[Degnared]

Yes, of course, everything is in stark black-and-white, good guys and bad guys, and there's no chance for the "good guys" to do something wrong or the "bad guys" to have a good point.

In fact, that's why SoD was published in black and white.

[Conuly]

Okay, I lol'd. But not *very* loudly.

[The_Weirdo]

In fact, that's why SoD was published in black and white.

You'll rightly want to kill me, but SoD was published in grayscale...

[The_Weirdo]

Was that the point? I figured there was just something that we didn't know that mitigated the horrible nature of what we (Redcloak) witnessed.

There isn't. Let me be perfectly clear here: What we witness is Paladins killing women and children without a second thought, remaining Lawful Good and not falling. Were it done to humans, elves or dwarves and so on, said Paladins would have fallen. And maybe have their alignment changed on the spot. Those were Goblins, however, creatures placed by the gods to serve as XP fodder. So, the Paladins didn't fall. Redcloak wants to create a world in which - among other things - a Paladin would fall for committing this kind of - yes, I'll use the term - atrocity. And insofar as his reasons, I don't blame him one bit.

[Kome]

There isn't. Let me be perfectly clear here: What we witness is Paladins killing women and children without a second thought, remaining Lawful Good and not falling. Were it done to humans, elves or dwarves and so on, said Paladins would have fallen. And maybe have their alignment changed on the spot.

You cannot possibly know that. Since we have yet to see how the Paladins would treat an elven or halfling or gnome village of inhabitants that register as "Evil" and loyally follow a person who threatens the foundations of reality, you're only assuming as much.

Those were Goblins, however, creatures placed by the gods to serve as XP fodder. So, the Paladins didn't fall. Redcloak wants to create a world in which - among other things - a Paladin would fall for committing this kind of - yes, I'll use the term - atrocity. And insofar as his reasons, I don't blame him one bit.

That seems to be part of what Redcloak wantED - past tense. What he seems to want now is as much dominion over the humans, elves, etc. as possible. He has a city, he has a nation. Recognized by 17 other nations, no less. There's trade, there's commerce, there's immigration and with that will soon be cultural diversity. But he wants more. Slaves, for instance. He seems to have no qualms against torture, too. And he's still trying to get at the gates.

Redcloak spends too much time worrying about what others have and what he doesn't when he would do a lot more for his species to focus on what they do have and what they can get.

The tragedy in SoD wasn't Redcloak becoming Xykon's b---h despite all his good intentions. It was Right-Eye being betrayed by his coward of a brother for actually doing good.

[Selene]

To be fair to the high priest:

A) he can't exactly lead his people (or use his spells to help them) from out in the middle of nowhere.

Why not? What was he doing in the village that he couldn't do via sending or delegation to underlings? Other than acting as a great big target, I mean.

The priest of a "demon god" in Dungeon Crawling Fools, has a dark blue grey cloak- he might not be in The Dark One's hierarchy though:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html

I think he appears here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0090.html

and here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html

as well, before meeting his demise here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0107.html

Ooh, nice catch! He might not be in the hierarchy, but I bet he is.

That's not how he came across in SoD- he seemed to want "all PC and NPC races" to be able to interact peacefully.

Where in either SoD or the main strip, does it suggest he plans the extinction of humanity?

What he said, and what he does, are two different things. Can you honestly say that he has interacted peacefully with humans?? Look how long it took him to stop laughing about using hobgoblins as cannon-fodder, for that matter.

Also where did I say anything about extinction? Although now that you mention it, if the world is unmade, it means the extinction and re-creation of everyone and everything...

That seems to be part of what Redcloak wantED - past tense. What he seems to want now is as much dominion over the humans, elves, etc. as possible. He has a city, he has a nation. Recognized by 17 other nations, no less. There's trade, there's commerce, there's immigration and with that will soon be cultural diversity. But he wants more. Slaves, for instance. He seems to have no qualms against torture, too. And he's still trying to get at the gates.

Redcloak spends too much time worrying about what others have and what he doesn't when he would do a lot more for his species to focus on what they do have and what they can get.

The tragedy in SoD wasn't Redcloak becoming Xykon's b---h despite all his good intentions. It was Right-Eye being betrayed by his coward of a brother for actually doing good.

^This. This right here.

[Code Black]

The tragedy in SoD wasn't Redcloak becoming Xykon's b---h despite all his good intentions. It was Right-Eye being betrayed by his coward of a brother for actually doing good.

Why can't they both be simultaneous tragedies?

[hamishspence]

Also where did I say anything about extinction?

He's an evil dictator bent on the destruction of another race in order to benefit his own.

"Destruction of another race" seemed to fit.

What he said, and what he does, are two different things. Can you honestly say that he has interacted peacefully with humans??

17 recognitions? This seems to suggest some interaction with the emissaries of those nations- though its possible none were human, it seems unlikely.

[Kome]

Why can't they both be simultaneous tragedies?

Oh, they absolutely can be simultaneous tragedies, but considering Redcloak has subverted his own tragedy by taking it out on people who have not wronged him at all, by killing his own family to avoid recognizing his mistakes, among so many other things, then by his own volition he takes away any reason to sympathize with him.

[Kome]

17 recognitions? This seems to suggest some interaction with the emissaries of those nations- though its possible none were human, it seems unlikely.

I think the part of his post you should focus on would be "peacefully" instead of "human."

Team Evil has very shown very little inhibition when it comes to intimidation and threats of force. Heck, look at the throwaway line by the hobgoblin cleric. Cliffport is going to try to influence Gobbotopia's stance on human slavery via economic engagement. It isn't hard to read that as "Cliffport is bribing Gobbotopia not to enslave its traders."

[Optimystik]

Why not? What was he doing in the village that he couldn't do via sending or delegation to underlings? Other than acting as a great big target, I mean.

That's just it - I don't know, and neither do you. He could have been curing disease and poison, making food and water, keeping rats and spiders away from the village, arbitrating disputes via Discern Lies, anything.

It could even have been as simple as the Dark One telling him to stay with the others.

You're assuming that he didn't think it through - which he may not have , in truth - but we can't assume that he had a choice in the matter until we know more.

[Degnared]

You'll rightly want to kill me, but SoD was published in grayscale...

Actually, I think that's the point I was hoping someone would make.

[The_Weirdo]

Actually, I think that's the point I was hoping someone would make.

Oh! Well, so there.

[Tobimaro]

Well, the goblins were never big on creating original names.

But at least they have a great national motto. And as the winner of the war against the Sapphire Guard they have the right to write their own history.

[the_tick_rules]

I see trouble ahead. As soon as Xykon finds his phalacetry he's gonna order a move on to his next target. And almost certianly he's gonna order redcloak and the other heavy hitters to come with. Then the fledgling nation's garrison is gonna be very vulnerable. They're recognizing it out of fear. I doubt any of them really like the idea.

[whitelaughter]

2) You know we're gonna have to create a coat of arms for the new nation.

You have seen the picture of the bugbear in MM, yes? They already have a literal 'coat of arms' - a human arm, and a dwarven arm, and an elven arm....