3.5 Turn Undead Optimization

[kvanever]

I thought I'd poll the group-mind here. I'm playing a Paladin, but we're in an undead heavy campaign. Now, I know there is Disciple of the Sun, a good divine feat for toasting undead, and the Phylactery of Undead Turning to add +4 effective turning level. Are there any other spells or items that will help me increase my turning level?

Also, on the same topic, the synergy from Knowledge Religion, does that affect turning damage, or just the turning check?

Thanks in advance.

Edit: Just about any sourcebook flies in my world, if that is a concern.

[Coy]

In terms of uses per day, extra turning is always a decent choice, but there are feats out there (Such as Greater Turning) that essentially give you a second pool of improved turning. Nightsticks are also an option, and since your not using DMM cheese a DM shouldnt have a problem with you buying one.

Remember that a great turning check also gives the option of outright destruction. Check for feats that allow turning to be used on evil outsiders too - alot of villains fall under this category.

[kvanever]

In terms of uses per day, extra turning is always a decent choice, but there are feats out there (Such as Greater Turning) that essentially give you a second pool of improved turning. Nightsticks are also an option, and since your not using DMM cheese a DM shouldnt have a problem with you buying one.

Remember that a great turning check also gives the option of outright destruction. Check for feats that allow turning to be used on evil outsiders too - alot of villains fall under this category.

The outright destruction is where I'm headed. Disciple of the Sun lets me spend two turn attempts to destroy instead of turn. I just need to get my turning level up as high as possible.

Extra Turning is, of course, useful, but I'm a paladin, so my Charisma is high. I get lots of attempts.

What feats allow me to turn outsiders?

[Sinfire Titan]

The outright destruction is where I'm headed. Disciple of the Sun lets me spend two turn attempts to destroy instead of turn. I just need to get my turning level up as high as possible.

Extra Turning is, of course, useful, but I'm a paladin, so my Charisma is high. I get lots of attempts.

What feats allow me to turn outsiders?

If you're focusing on turning, why are you a Paladin? That -3 hurts your check.

No feat pre-Epic allows you to turn outsiders, you need a PrC for that.

[kvanever]

If you're focusing on turning, why are you a Paladin? That -3 hurts your check.

No feat pre-Epic allows you to turn outsiders, you need a PrC for that.

Because Paladins are sweet. I have a moral imperative to be obnoxiously righteous and there's something really entertaining about roleplaying a character who is literally incapable of fear.

But yeah, game mechanics wise, the -3 hurts. I didn't know how deep we'd be getting into undead originally. I've got a high Charisma, so that helps, but the level thing is really limiting me, definitely.

[Zom B]

In addition to what you have listed:
1. Get yourself a Circlet of Persuasion, to add +3 to Charisma-based checks.
2. In BoED, there is an armor/shield enchant called, I believe, Sacred that adds a +2 to your effective turning level.
3. Get ahold of a Cloak of Charisma, if you can. You'll want that anyway as a paladin for some nice Divine Grace synergy.

If you can consistently roll high enough on the turn attempt chart, you add +2 to your effective level. So with Improved Turning, Phylactery of Undead Turning, Sacred Shield, and Sacred Armor, you can turn as if 11 levels higher. There's probably more elsewhere.

Actually, since the effective turning level increase is untyped, You could wear a regular Sacred shield and have a Sacred buckler on your other arm. You'd only get the shield bonus to your AC from the greater of the two sources, but that's another +2 to your effective level for 13 levels higher.

I once played a turning-focused cleric. In the game, I made a level 20 Lich explode at 11th level (he was our BBEG).

DM: Ha, okay, you turn him and he is destroyed. No biggie. He'll be back in a few days.
Me: Nope.
DM: Yeah, there's a phylactery.
Me: *Slides book over to DM and points to Hunter of the Dead's ability that says that undead you destroy can never come back* (He'd already ruled that Turn Undead counted in addition to melee attacks and spells back when I first took the PrC).
DM: Ummm...

[kvanever]

Thanks Zom B. The Circlet of Persuasion is a good call, and the Sacred armor modifier is exactly what I was looking for. I don't know if my DM will let me stack the ability on both armor and shield, even though it's untyped, but there's no harm in asking. I should really be able to toast some undead that way though.

[magic9mushroom]

This makes me wonder... What happens if you use the Sun domain as an Evil cleric? They're destroyed, but under the Rebuke Undead rules it then overrides with "Any that would be destroyed are commanded". I smell cheese nearby...

[Optimystik]

This makes me wonder... What happens if you use the Sun domain as an Evil cleric? They're destroyed, but under the Rebuke Undead rules it then overrides with "Any that would be destroyed are commanded". I smell cheese nearby...

Sun Domain specifically states "undead that would be turned are destroyed instead." It says nothing about undead that are rebuked, which is a separate status condition.

[PhoenixRivers]

Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment (Sun Domain)

The above feat will give you access to the Sun domain, so that you can greater turn once per day.

In addition, there's quicken turning, that lets you turn as a swift action.

[magic9mushroom]

Sun Domain specifically states "undead that would be turned are destroyed instead." It says nothing about undead that are rebuked, which is a separate status condition.

But that's the trick. Rebuking ALSO says "undead that would be turned are rebuked instead". Apply the Sun domain power before the rebuking and you're set.

[Optimystik]

But that's the trick. Rebuking ALSO says "undead that would be turned are rebuked instead". Apply the Sun domain power before the rebuking and you're set.

To borrow some M:TG terminology, you're trying to apply two replacement effects to the same event.

Sun clerics replace normal turning with destruction;
Evil clerics replace normal turning with rebuking.

So strictly speaking, you can only apply one, not both.

[Ormagoden]

By chance does your paladin worship Pelor?

Because Radiant servant of Pelor is the PRC for you. (Unless someone else can think of some reason why not?)

[fryplink]

as a radiant servant he would loose some BAB and HD (some people care about that) but gains all sorts of cleric-y stuff. would the RS turn-undead stack with paladin levels (it specifically says cleric, most sane DMs would probably not even notice it, but there are a few super-hardliners out there)

[Curmudgeon]

it specifically says cleric, most sane DMs would probably not even notice it, but there are a few super-hardliners out there

Turn Undead: A radiant servant of Pelor adds his radiant servant class levels to his cleric levels for all purposes related to turning undead.

Turn Undead (Su)

When a paladin reaches 4th level, she gains the supernatural ability to turn undead. She may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. She turns undead as a cleric of three levels lower would.

This prestige class combines just fine with Paladin (for purposes of turning undead only), because the the Paladin is treated as a Cleric of (Paladin - 3) levels.

If you're trying to get it to work as if it said "Cleric or Paladin" levels, then apparently I'm a "super-hardliner". You still suffer a -3 level penalty.

[magic9mushroom]

To borrow some M:TG terminology, you're trying to apply two replacement effects to the same event.

Sun clerics replace normal turning with destruction;
Evil clerics replace normal turning with rebuking.

So strictly speaking, you can only apply one, not both.

Indeed.

But. That's not what I'm suggesting.

I'm saying:

Sun clerics replace normal turning with destruction;
Evil clerics replace destruction with commanding.

Hence, it goes turning -> destruction -> commanding.

@others: Paladins don't get domains, and you need one to get into RSoP (Sun domain).

[Lapak]

Indeed.

But. That's not what I'm suggesting.

I'm saying:

Sun clerics replace normal turning with destruction;
Evil clerics replace destruction with commanding.

Hence, it goes turning -> destruction -> commanding.

@others: Paladins don't get domains, and you need one to get into RSoP (Sun domain).

Except if you're evil, there is no Turning to start the chain. It's not that they convert Turning into Rebuking; they have an alternate feature that happens to function in many of the same ways. Evil clerics explicitly have Rebuke and not Turn; the quote about treating rebuking was under the rules section explaining how that alternate class feature worked, not the class abilities section.

So you'd be trying to go from Rebuke -> Destroy, which doesn't work.

[Curmudgeon]

I'm saying:

Sun clerics replace normal turning with destruction;
Evil clerics replace destruction with commanding.

Second statement isn't backed up by the rules. Evil Clerics can rebuke or command. They have no way of acquiring destruction at all, because destruction is only an option of turning, not rebuking.

[magic9mushroom]

Except if you're evil, there is no Turning to start the chain. It's not that they convert Turning into Rebuking; they have an alternate feature that happens to function in many of the same ways. Evil clerics explicitly have Rebuke and not Turn; the quote about treating rebuking was under the rules section explaining how that alternate class feature worked, not the class abilities section.

So you'd be trying to go from Rebuke -> Destroy, which doesn't work.

Nope. In the PHB it says that it works as normal, except any undead that would be turned are rebuked and any that would be destroyed are commanded. I was quoting earlier.

It's screwy anyway, I know.

[Keld Denar]

Things that add to your effective cleric level:

Equipment
Ephod of Authority +1 MIC (back in the sets)
Phylactery of Undead Turning +4 DMG
Sacred armor/shield enhancement +2 each A&EG
Rod of Defiance +4 Libris Mortis
Lyre of the Restful Soul +4 Libris Mortis

Feats
Improved Turning +1 PHB

So, if you had a friend play the Lyre and you were presenting the Rod, you'd impose a -8 on foes Turn Resistance (nothing prevents a creature from having a negative Turn Resistance), and you'd get +5 from the Ephod and the Phylactery, along with +2 for each Sacred item you have (armor + shield + shield) for a grand total of +19 before you roll.

Also, don't forget that there is a spell in Complete Champion called Turn Anathema. It allows you to chose a single non-neutral component of your alignment (Lawful or Good for example) and turn outsiders who's alignments oppose that facet. Its a 2nd level Cleric AND Paladin spell, so you could have it by like, level 8 or so.

[kvanever]

Things that add to your effective cleric level:

Equipment
Ephod of Authority +1 MIC (back in the sets)
Phylactery of Undead Turning +4 DMG
Sacred armor/shield enhancement +2 each A&EG
Rod of Defiance +4 Libris Mortis
Lyre of the Restful Soul +4 Libris Mortis

Feats
Improved Turning +1 PHB

So, if you had a friend play the Lyre and you were presenting the Rod, you'd impose a -8 on foes Turn Resistance (nothing prevents a creature from having a negative Turn Resistance), and you'd get +5 from the Ephod and the Phylactery, along with +2 for each Sacred item you have (armor + shield + shield) for a grand total of +19 before you roll.

Also, don't forget that there is a spell in Complete Champion called Turn Anathema. It allows you to chose a single non-neutral component of your alignment (Lawful or Good for example) and turn outsiders who's alignments oppose that facet. Its a 2nd level Cleric AND Paladin spell, so you could have it by like, level 8 or so.

Thanks for the good research Keld. I don't have a bard to play the Lyre, but the Rod is a good get for me. I'll be destroying undead all over.

By chance does your paladin worship Pelor?

Because Radiant servant of Pelor is the PRC for you. (Unless someone else can think of some reason why not?)

as a radiant servant he would loose some BAB and HD (some people care about that) but gains all sorts of cleric-y stuff. would the RS turn-undead stack with paladin levels (it specifically says cleric, most sane DMs would probably not even notice it, but there are a few super-hardliners out there)

I don't worship Pelor. My DM's world has a custom cosmology, but I am down with goodness in general, and he doesn't worry too much about that. But I'm trying to avoid multiclassing. I just love smiting evil and riding a pegasus too much.

[jiriku]

From Complete Divine and Libris Mortis, Heighten Turning and Empower Turning. Heighten is perhaps of limited use, since it merely improves your turn undead check and thus can get you a maximum of +4 levels of turning with a gonzo check result. Empower is more useful because you can almost always benefit from MOAR HIT DICE! Quicken Turning is useful in extremely undead-heavy campaigns as you can turn (read: destroy) twice as much crud per round. However, the feat doesn't really carry its weight unless you expect to face hordes of undead in nearly every game session.

[kvanever]

Scepter of the Netherworld from Libris Mortis is also a +3 turn level. Do we think that stacks with Phylactery of Undead Turning?

[Optimystik]

Scepter of the Netherworld from Libris Mortis is also a +3 turn level. Do we think that stacks with Phylactery of Undead Turning?

They are untyped, so I don't see why not.

[kvanever]

Thanks everyone. It's looking like I'm going to try to get my hands on

Nightstick
Disciple of the Sun feat
Circlet of Persuasion
Sacred Shield
Phylactery of Undead Turning
Scepter of the Netherworld

I don't think I can use the Rod of Defiance and the Scepter.

But for all that, I can turn, with my 18 modified Cha, +3 to checks, and 5 ranks of knowledge religion
paladin level +6 15% of attempts,
+7 15%,
+8 15%,
+9 15%,
+10 40%

I can double up and destroy a total of 5 times a day. Pretty damn brutal.

Again, thanks for the tips.

[JaronK]

Because Paladins are sweet. I have a moral imperative to be obnoxiously righteous and there's something really entertaining about roleplaying a character who is literally incapable of fear.

One thing to consider is going Cleric 6/PrC Paladin 2 instead of normal Paladin. This gives you every ability of a normal Paladin if you persist Divine Power, but also your turning is far better (of course, many turn attempts are used up by DMM). Then you can do things like take Sun domain.

The Lyre of the Restful Soul and the Rod of Defiance are great with Turn Undead. Together they reduce Turn Resistance by 8, enough to severely damage any undead foe. It also makes destroying enemies a LOT easier.

JaronK

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Not sure who to quote about the turn/rebuke ambiguity and the sun domain.

Obviously RAI the sun domain is only for turn-turn undead (aka REAL turn, not rebuke).

However a lot of the turning mechanics use the word 'turning' and its variants to apply either turn or rebuke. So there are some times that 'hehe its says turn so this works for my rebuke check' is perfectly legit to me.

Does that mean the sun domain can be abused for Dread Necros? Oh hell no. That is pidgeon-holing a DM-territory interpretation with clear disregard for balance and fluff.

Short version: Either don't do it or you are trying to be a douche. Either way stop.

[Optimystik]

However a lot of the turning mechanics use the word 'turning' and its variants to apply either turn or rebuke. So there are some times that 'hehe its says turn so this works for my rebuke check' is perfectly legit to me.

I would be perfectly fine with an Evil Sun cleric destroying undead instead of rebuking them. But Sun can't upgrade Rebuke to Command.

The granted power says nothing about commanding - only destruction.

[kvanever]

I would be perfectly fine with an Evil Sun cleric destroying undead instead of rebuking them. But Sun can't upgrade Rebuke to Command.

The granted power says nothing about commanding - only destruction.

I like this actually. An evil cleric who just thinks undead are disgusting and need blasting. Sure, he eats kittens and barbecues babies, but raising the dead? Ew.

[Kallisti]

DMM Persist. If you don't abuse it, it's a powerful option that doesn't break the game. Just for the love of God, Montresor, don't abuse it.