Too Much for This Group?

[Crow]

The group is;

Human Fighter 5 (two-hander, full-plate)
Human Fighter 5 (axe/shield, full-plate)
Human Paladin 5 (morningstar, vow of poverty)
Half-Minotaur 4 Rogue (daggers, dual-wield)
Dwarf Wizard 5 (diviner, buffer/protector)

The fighters are not chargers. The group is reasonably equipped, but not glowing with items (just about WBL). The wizard's spellbook contains the following;

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comprehend languages, detect secret doors, detect undead, feather fall, identify, mage armor, magic weapon, protection/evil, shield, true strike

bull strength, detect thoughts, invisibility, locate object, obscure object, resist energy, see invisibility

arcane sight, clairaudience/clairvoyance, dispel magic, heroism, magic circle/evil, nondetection

The enemy is;

Half-Orc Fighter 6 (club/shield, mounted combat feat tree)
<mounted on an...>
Advanced (13HD) Rust Monster (CR5)

The rider will be equipped as a level 6 NPC (NOT the same as player WBL).

I want this to be a pretty tough challenge, but I don't want to destroy the party. At a glance, it seems like they should be able to handle this, but I wanted to run it by the playground to confirm before I spring an inadvertant bloodbath on the players.

[Infernum]

Well your fighters equipment might go down the drain, but your paladin should be fine since he doesnt ware armor. The dwarven mage will be mostly useless for the fight unless he is able to spread the buffs around fairly quickly. And the rogue might do some damage before his weapons go bye bye.

The biggest problems in your party for this fight is there utter lack of ability to do any sort of damage at a range, physical or other wise. They are going to suffer pretty bad with maybe two to three character deaths unless they make important saves against the rust monster.

However, if they are aware of the fight ahead of time and get a quick round of beating on the rust monster they might come out relatively unscathed.

It all depends on how the fight goes down. If the Half-Orc gets the drop on them or goes first and destroys their stuff fairly quickly, they will either flee or die. If they get the drop on him or go first they might have a good fight or come out with only some gear missing.

[AtwasAwamps]

You're really going to throw a rust monster...an ADVANCED one, no less...at two fighters?

You're a bad bad woman.

[absolmorph]

You're really going to throw a rust monster...an ADVANCED one, no less...at two fighters?

You're a bad bad woman.

Two fighters and a rogue.
I'd suggest a different mount.

[DragoonWraith]

Seriously, a rust monster has been - from the very beginning - a sick, twisted DM joke (though it was never really funny). Like, "haha, now you guys suck." Sending one at a party - especially one as item-dependent as that one - is just cruel.

[Bibliomancer]

Why doesn't the wizard have fly?

You could make this a very interesting challenge by giving the half-orc an unmodified hippogriff with the Fly-by Attack feat. A lance would also add damage potential and flavor. That way, they have to fight an interesting atypical combat without losing all their gear.

[Tackyhillbillu]

I disagree. The Rust Monster exists to punish Parties.

"Off the Rails! RUST MONSTERS, THAT DAMN CRAB, AND SUNDERED SPELLBOOKS FOR ALL!"

Also, if you throw something that uses Fly-By Attack even Halfway Decently at them, it will kill them all. The Reach of the Lance means they won't even get to AOO him.

[Eurus]

Or, y'know, just compensate by tossing the party replacement armor/weapons later for anything that gets rusted.

[Starbuck_II]

I think you should have the 1/2 Orc to ride an advanced That Damn Crab instead.

[Splendor]

Well it depends. Do the character's have any idea what a rust monster is? Or will they play out of character?

If you have someone (like the dwarf) who has Knowledge (Dungeons) he may know all about rust monsters, and understand that a couple copper will distract rust monster away from fighting.

13HD rush monster should have about 70hp (on average). So that like 2 rounds of ranged attacks by the party if they concentrate on it.

If the wizard has summon monsters 3 he could call up a hippogriff (or a pack of dogs) to help fight/distract the rust monster while the party kills it from range.

But... If the bad guy surprises them, he could KO the mage in 1 round & his rust monster could take out the armor of 1 fighter. Making it a whole different fight and ruining all the PCs equipment. But I bet you after this fight they'd all start carrying an extra club just in case.

It all depends upon the players and the encounter setup for how this goes down.

[Crow]

No, there is a little poetic justice involved here...

One of the players decided they were going to handle my sword while I was on the road a while ago. This person doesn't know a whole lot about swords, or metals in general, and was surprised to find a thin coating of oil on the blade and fittings, which they proceeded to wipe off using their sweatshirt, before playing around with it some more. Of course, nobody stopped this person for some reason.

So fast-forward about four months and I am pulling the sword down to do some maintainance (wipe off the old oil, dust her off, apply a fresh light coat of oil). But lo, I notice wonderful fat smudges of oxidation in the curious shapes of fingerprints along the blade, and more irregular oxidation spots on the fittings that curiously correspond to places where someone's hand would be in contact with them during handling. Not to mention, we live near the ocean.

So I got to spend a nice little stretch of time this morning doing restoration work, when I could have just spent about a minute to do prevention work if somebody had told me sooner. I don't have a problem with people messing with my swords, so long as they let me know.

Not all of the players know how I spent my morning, aside from the one who explained what happened, so the Rust Monster will serve as notice. I will of course recoup the group any resources that they lose, but they might have to go without until they get back to civilization.

[DragoonWraith]

I think that making an OOC issue into an IC thing is a bad idea, personally, but I would ask - would the person responsible (if you have any idea who it was) be one of those losing the items? If it was the Wizard or the VoP Paladin, well... it's not going to much help...

[Crow]

I think that making an OOC issue into an IC thing is a bad idea, personally, but I would ask - would the person responsible (if you have any idea who it was) be one of those losing the items? If it was the Wizard or the VoP Paladin, well... it's not going to much help...

That's why I don't want to *kill* them. The one doing the damage would be losing things, as would those who let him, and didn't let me know (they know I would have wanted to know so I could do maintainence).

As I said, I will recoup them. I just want to have a little fun first.

[Altima]

No, there is a little poetic justice involved here...

One of the players decided they were going to handle my sword while I was on the road a while ago. This person doesn't know a whole lot about swords, or metals in general, and was surprised to find a thin coating of oil on the blade and fittings, which they proceeded to wipe off using their sweatshirt, before playing around with it some more. Of course, nobody stopped this person for some reason.

So fast-forward about four months and I am pulling the sword down to do some maintainance (wipe off the old oil, dust her off, apply a fresh light coat of oil). But lo, I notice wonderful fat smudges of oxidation in the curious shapes of fingerprints along the blade, and more irregular oxidation spots on the fittings that curiously correspond to places where someone's hand would be in contact with them during handling. Not to mention, we live near the ocean.

So I got to spend a nice little stretch of time this morning doing restoration work, when I could have just spent about a minute to do prevention work if somebody had told me sooner. I don't have a problem with people messing with my swords, so long as they let me know.

Not all of the players know how I spent my morning, aside from the one who explained what happened, so the Rust Monster will serve as notice. I will of course recoup the group any resources that they lose, but they might have to go without until they get back to civilization.

Perhaps, since this rust monster is trained, it has been broken to the point where it won't molest equipment unless ordered to. After all, the rust monster may eat the half-orc's equipment, too!

Perhaps it could be a standard action to have the antennae touch a metal object.

Bonus points if it was one of the fighters and you can rust his sword in the first round.

Still, it may be a *tad* too much, since they'll only be able to attack the rust monster at range, as the wizard probably won't have too many direct damage spells. Your party is quite screwed if they all don't have some type of ranged weapon, though. Perhaps set the fight in an area with improvised weapons, like wooden chairs or with items that can be used in a pinch, like certain alcohols making molotov cocktails.

Other than that, make them suffer. Be sure to give the half-orc plenty of consummables and what have you (especially grafts or even symbiotes) so the players can't scavenge a whole lot of his or her equipment.

[SparkMandriller]

No, there is a little poetic justice involved here...

This sounds like it could be the start of one of those psycho DM horror stories tbh.

[Chaelos]

Except for instances where the group involved sits at the high end of the Friendship Spectrum and the low end of the Hot Tempers Spectrum, dragging out-of-game issues into game is one of the worst faux pas a DM or player can commit.

What happens at the table should stay there; what happens outside the table should not come in. If you're angry about their violation of your personal property, tell them about it like an adult instead of knowingly aggravating (mostly innocent, from the sounds of it) people at an event that is supposed to be fun for all.

+ $.02

[Kelb_Panthera]

While I don't think bringing OOC problems into the game is a good idea on any level, this should be a pretty straight forward fight. Not even that difficult really. At least not if the players are any kind of intelligent. Paladin drags the enemy from his mount, then the party shishkabobs him. Paladin manages to mount then control the rust monster and that's the end.

[Crow]

Except for instances where the group involved sits at the high end of the Friendship Spectrum and the low end of the Hot Tempers Spectrum, dragging out-of-game issues into game is one of the worst faux pas a DM or player can commit.

What happens at the table should stay there; what happens outside the table should not come in. If you're angry about their violation of your personal property, tell them about it like an adult instead of knowingly aggravating (mostly innocent, from the sounds of it) people at an event that is supposed to be fun for all.

+ $.02

I have DMed this same group for almost a decade. Believe it or not, people can have fun crossing the OOC-IC line without it becoming a knock-down drag-out internet horror story.

More responses to the actual question would be much appreciated.

edit: ...and thanks to those that have answered the question.

[Optimystik]

As I said, I will recoup them. I just want to have a little fun first.

Glad you're not at my table.

[JoshuaZ]

Glad you're not at my table.

Crow presumably knows more about the group interactions in her group and can make a judgment whether this is will be ok or not. I doubt I'd ever be happy with any group that I'm in having a DM do something like this but *shrug*.

[Sophismata]

I have DMed this same group for almost a decade. Believe it or not, people can have fun crossing the OOC-IC line without it becoming a knock-down drag-out internet horror story.

More responses to the actual question would be much appreciated.

I find the situation faintly amusing, and you seem to know what you're doing, so the only real advice I can give is, "go for it".

Without knowing the particulars of playstyle or how the encounter will come about, it is hard to really predict how the rust monster half-orc will turn out. At 13HD, though, it is really a bigger threat then the rider.

[Thrawn183]

[QUOTE=Crow;7850042]The group is;

Human Fighter 5 (two-hander, full-plate)
Human Fighter 5 (axe/shield, full-plate)
Human Paladin 5 (morningstar, vow of poverty)
Half-Minotaur 4 Rogue (daggers, dual-wield)
Dwarf Wizard 5 (diviner, buffer/protector)
[/Qoute]

Frankly, with the wizard load-out, none of these characters except for the rogue is going to get more than one attack per round. This combat may take a while. When combined with the fact that the guy riding the mount is a half-orc (increased damage) and mounted combat serves to prevent at least some of the damage dealt, this encounter could prove quite deadly.

[Killer Angel]

I will of course recoup the group any resources that they lose.

The premises for why you wanna use a rust monster are BAD, but this is good.
But, given that you and your friends play since a long time, I won't enter in the social mechanics of your group, you'd know better than me.

So, considering that they will regain equipment, the issue is only if the fight is balanced. It will be very hard for them.

The only advantage they have, is that the enemy is a single mounted unit, so they can concentrate their efforts.

[Matthew]

Seriously, a rust monster has been - from the very beginning - a sick, twisted DM joke (though it was never really funny). Like, "haha, now you guys suck." Sending one at a party - especially one as item-dependent as that one - is just cruel.

Nah, it is just related to a more "easy come, easy go" ethos. In a system where a failed saving throw versus fire ball causes all your equipment to have to make a saving throw, the rust monster is not that big a deal.

Or, y'know, just compensate by tossing the party replacement armour/weapons later for anything that gets rusted.

Pretty much.

[PhoenixRivers]

On the bright side? There's only so much the Orc fighter can have, as his mount will eat many things.

[bosssmiley]

Seriously, a rust monster has been - from the very beginning - a sick, twisted DM joke (though it was never really funny). Like, "haha, now you guys suck." Sending one at a party - especially one as item-dependent as that one - is just cruel.

No. The Rust Monster is what is called a puzzle monster. Something that is difficult if you don't know the trick of defeating it, but little more than a speed bump if you do. The whole point of Rusty, and monsters like it, is as a test of player adaptability and resourcefulness. It asks the question: "How good are you without your favourite toys?"

No-one said the mythic underworld and the fantastic wilderlands had to play nice.

@OP: seems fine. The PCs have a vast advantage in actions/round. They're liable to gangbeat and curbstomp the Half-Orc once the tinboyz stop whimpering like sissy little girls.

Doing it because someone who didn't understand what he was doing with your sword is a d*** move though. Use a Rust Monster-riding Barbarian because it's a fun, interesting encounter, not because you want to use the game to deliver an object lesson. Bringing OOG drama to the table is just a cheap shot (and likely a recipe for tears before bedtime).

[DragoonWraith]

I meant the actual history of the Rust Monster. Apparently Gygax had bought some new minis, and there was one that was silly and they were joking about it, trying to come up with what it could be, and then all of a sudden they walk into a room and Gygax says, "Guys, this is a rust monster," and they fight it. If that's anything other than sadistic to you... well, I wouldn't be interested in your game.

[ZombieGenesis]

Might as well throw it at them anyway. Even if it can fundamentally destroy them if things go tailside-up, the beauty of narration means you can avoid actually having them killed. Outside events, giving the beast an incentive other than bloodbathy murder...
And if they pull it off anyway, it's waffles all around.

[Tehnar]

I actually see this as a fun encounter. The rust monster is not exactly a threat aside from the equipment destroying properties. This could lead to interesting choices players make during the encounter. Perhaps they will want to disarm the half orc so they can use that club, or they will want to search the area for some improvised weapons.

Allow them such things, and don't make the HO too big of a combat brute. The encounter will teach them to have a backup ranged weapon, and to have backup weapons of every kind. Though this leads to different sort of problems when your PCs have about 20 different kinds of weapons in their bags of holding.

[Altima]

I meant the actual history of the Rust Monster. Apparently Gygax had bought some new minis, and there was one that was silly and they were joking about it, trying to come up with what it could be, and then all of a sudden they walk into a room and Gygax says, "Guys, this is a rust monster," and they fight it. If that's anything other than sadistic to you... well, I wouldn't be interested in your game.

That's actually typical Gygax D&D. That guy was great! The dungeons he created...he's my idol.

Hehe, the sphere of annihilation and the sticky-glue-barrel are my favorites.