Combat Expertise Backwards?

[Skjaldbakka]

Is there a feat or cleric spell that can improve my to hit against a foe in exchange for giving them a bonus to hit or damage against me?

I have a cleric with a karma theme, taking Divine Justice, but my stats are spread a bit thin, so my to-hit isn't great, even with Weapon Finesse to use my 14 dex instead of my 8 strength.

[Mongoose87]

Not per-se, but there are a couple similar effects. Robilar's Gambit allows you to take a -4 to AC and a +4 to damage taken, in order to provoke attacks of opportunity when you are attacked.

Shock Trooper allows you to use Power Attack on a charge, and sacrifice AC instead of BaB - which is as good as getting extra BaB.

[Flickerdart]

Clerics have lots of buffs for to-hit, you don't even need to waste a feat. Why do you have 14 DEX? Wear full plate, it won't matter.

[sofawall]

Not per-se, but there are a couple similar effects. Robilar's Gambit allows you to take a -4 to AC and a +4 to damage taken, in order to provoke attacks of opportunity when you are attacked.

Shock Trooper allows you to use Power Attack on a charge, and sacrifice AC instead of BaB - which is as good as getting extra BaB.

1st gives more chances to hit, true, but does not improve chance to hit.

2nd does not increase chance to hit. It doesn't reduce it, which is an advantage over pure Power Attack, but it doesn't increase it either.

[Teron]

There's Reckless Offense, but it's pretty bad.

[Eloel]

1st gives more chances to hit, true, but does not improve chance to hit.

It does, actually. If you're hitting with a 11, with 1 attack, you have a 50% chance with 2.5% double-damage chance (crit). With 2 attacks, you have a 75% chance of hitting with 25% of that being 'double damage' (and then there's 3x and 4x damage chances that I won't bother calculating).

[sofawall]

It does, actually. If you're hitting with a 11, with 1 attack, you have a 50% chance with 2.5% double-damage chance (crit). With 2 attacks, you have a 75% chance of hitting with 25% of that being 'double damage' (and then there's 3x and 4x damage chances that I won't bother calculating).

Let me revise my statement. It increases your overall chance to hit, but not your to-hit value, which is what the OP was asking for.

[Eloel]

Let me revise my statement. It increases your overall chance to hit, but not your to-hit value, which is what the OP was asking for.

Bored and nitpicking :)

On topic:

I think a feat that IS combat expertise backwards wouldn't be that broken, if you want to go for homebrew.

Reckless Combat [General]

Prerequisite
Int 13.

Benefit

When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as your BAB on your Armor Class and add the same number as a bonus on your Attack Rolls. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.

Special

A fighter may select Reckless Combat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

[ScionoftheVoid]

Bored and nitpicking :)

On topic:

I think a feat that IS combat expertise backwards wouldn't be that broken, if you want to go for homebrew.

Reckless Combat [General]

Prerequisite
Int 13.

Benefit

When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as your BAB on your Armor Class and add the same number as a bonus on your Attack Rolls. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.

Special

A fighter may select Reckless Combat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

It may well be quite powerful actually. Shock Trooper is considered good doing the same thing, despite having more prerequisites and only being available on a charge. This and Power Attack is bad enough. This plus Power Attack, Leap Attack and Shocktrooper is ubercharger in a can. You don't even need to push AC through the floor unless you want to. When you get even this and Shock Trooper you can probably one-shot anything you can charge of up to CR (your level, about 8 if I remember the prereques right)+4-ish. That may be an exagerration, but not by all that much.

[sofawall]

It may well be quite powerful actually. Shock Trooper is considered good doing the same thing, despite having more prerequisites and only being available on a charge. This and Power Attack is bad enough. This plus Power Attack, Leap Attack and Shocktrooper is ubercharger in a can. You don't even need to push AC through the floor unless you want to. When you get even this and Shock Trooper you can probably one-shot anything you can charge of up to CR (your level, about 8 if I remember the prereques right)+4-ish. That may be an exagerration, but not by all that much.

Level 6 can get Shock Trooper, Leap Attack and Power Attack.

[Greenish]

Level 6 can get Shock Trooper, Leap Attack and Power Attack.

With right classes/dips, yeah.

[ericgrau]

Greater magic weapon, quickened divine favor, heroes' feast. Other buffs that force you to spend a combat round are a trap, but you can prepare 1 or 2 in case you get a buffing round. If you want a melee cleric, then make strength your 1st or 2nd stat, not your dump stat. Heck, dump dex if you want. Wis and con are your other two, the other 3 are just kind of nice to have not your main stats. Even a high wis isn't that essential unless you want to cast spells with saves; melee clerics don't really need those. If you don't want to do that then don't be a melee cleric. Even w/o focusing on martial combat you can still cast inflict spells for damage since they are only touch attacks and thus much easier to hit with. Besides that you can let loose save-or-dies, counters (like dispel) and abjurations, and morning buffs for your party members.

More cheesy ways to hit and/or do a lot of damage while still hitting are shock trooper and wraithstrike. How far your group lets that go depends on their style.

[sofawall]

With right classes/dips, yeah.

Something like Barbarian 2/Fighter 4?

[Flickerdart]

Something like Barbarian 2/Fighter 4?

You only need a dip of Fighter at 5th to pick up Leap Attack, otherwise you can use your regular feats (1: Improved Bull Rush, 3: Power Attack, 6: Shock Trooper) as long as you have full BAB to qualify for Shock Trooper, and Jump in-class.

[Lapak]

It may well be quite powerful actually. Shock Trooper is considered good doing the same thing, despite having more prerequisites and only being available on a charge. This and Power Attack is bad enough. This plus Power Attack, Leap Attack and Shocktrooper is ubercharger in a can. You don't even need to push AC through the floor unless you want to. When you get even this and Shock Trooper you can probably one-shot anything you can charge of up to CR (your level, about 8 if I remember the prereques right)+4-ish. That may be an exagerration, but not by all that much.

You could make it mutually exclusive with Power Attack and/or Shock Trooper easily enough, under the theory that you're already focusing your efforts on one thing and can't focus that same effort on something else.

[sofawall]

You only need a dip of Fighter at 5th to pick up Leap Attack, otherwise you can use your regular feats (1: Improved Bull Rush, 3: Power Attack, 6: Shock Trooper) as long as you have full BAB to qualify for Shock Trooper, and Jump in-class.

You're right. I just traditionally do it like that to get the entry to Frenzied Berzerker, when I ubercharge.

[absolmorph]

You could make it mutually exclusive with Power Attack and/or Shock Trooper easily enough, under the theory that you're already focusing your efforts on one thing and can't focus that same effort on something else.

I'd say that hitting harder by ignoring defense is the same thing as hitting harder by ignoring defense. However, Reckless Attack wouldn't activate at the same time as Shock Trooper; Reckless Attack doesn't use Power Attack, and it costs 1 AC to Shock Trooper's 2. You would need to drop about 60 AC at level 20 to use 'em both.

[ScionoftheVoid]

I'd say that hitting harder by ignoring defense is the same thing as hitting harder by ignoring defense. However, Reckless Attack wouldn't activate at the same time as Shock Trooper; Reckless Attack doesn't use Power Attack, and it costs 1 AC to Shock Trooper's 2. You would need to drop about 60 AC at level 20 to use 'em both.

Against a single opponent dropping your AC by 62 to get an attack at +22 to-hit and +40 damage (+60 with leap attack) sounds good to me (those numbers include charge bonuses and come from four feats, five including Leap Attack. That means that you can take more or less whatever classes you like). Adding Pounce and/or Frenzied Berzerker is a natural progression and pumps stuff up higher. I'm not so much complaining about the numbers as I am about the fact that this is a very obvious thing to do if you don't mind your AC being terrible. Worst AC I can get including those penalties off the top of my head is -59 at Dex 3 and Expansion to get Huge size. Anyone going for the ignores defences thing is going to have this feat and Power Attack.

Basically I think you should give it different prerequisites. More prerequisites specifically.

[Ernir]

You only need a dip of Fighter at 5th to pick up Leap Attack, otherwise you can use your regular feats (1: Improved Bull Rush, 3: Power Attack, 6: Shock Trooper) as long as you have full BAB to qualify for Shock Trooper, and Jump in-class.

One oddity about Leap Attack: it actually isn't a Fighter Bonus Feat.

You could of course still accomplish the same thing by taking the Fighter dip at 6 and taking Shock Trooper as your FBF, but Leap Attack for some reason isn't one.

[Flickerdart]

One oddity about Leap Attack: it actually isn't a Fighter Bonus Feat.

You could of course still accomplish the same thing by taking the Fighter dip at 6 and taking Shock Trooper as your FBF, but Leap Attack for some reason isn't one.

Huh, odd. Then yeah, Fighter at 6th works. If you have INT 22 for some reason, you don't even need to have Jump ranks before.

The thing about dropping AC into yon nether regions is that it doesn't do anything to your miss chances. Stack those high, and you'll be fine anyway.

[The Glyphstone]

Esitrepxe Tabmoc
Prerequisite: Int 31
Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as -5 on your Armor Class and add the same number (+5 or less) as an untyped bonus to your attack rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action. You may not activate this feat in the same turn that you use Power Attack.
Special: A Fighter may take Esitrepxe Tabmoc as one of his fighter bonus feats.

[Flickerdart]

Shouldn't that be INT 7?

[The Glyphstone]

Actually, it should be INT 31. Fixed, and thanks for pointing that out.

[Ernir]

Huh, odd. Then yeah, Fighter at 6th works. If you have INT 22 for some reason, you don't even need to have Jump ranks before.

The thing about dropping AC into yon nether regions is that it doesn't do anything to your miss chances. Stack those high, and you'll be fine anyway.

I actually really really want a Frenzied Berserker build which intentionally has AC in the semi-deep negatives. Mostly for the joke that is technically being easier to hit than the broad side of a barn.

[Pluto]

I actually really really want a Frenzied Berserker build which intentionally has AC in the semi-deep negatives. Mostly for the joke that is technically being easier to hit than the broad side of a barn.

Be sure to remember the 2-level Ronin dip and the Warchanter 3 Cohort.

[FMArthur]

Yeah, the Ronin's Banzai Charge is just like Shock Trooper, and works in addition to Shock Trooper, and is even in the same book (Complete Warrior). Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike are both good ways to capitalize on your nonexistant AC by taking a further hit for a greater defensive effect in addition to your likely massive offense. A Crusader level or two for further survivability and area-denial wouldn't hurt.

[Runestar]

I actually really really want a Frenzied Berserker build which intentionally has AC in the semi-deep negatives. Mostly for the joke that is technically being easier to hit than the broad side of a barn.

Past a certain point, foes are going to be hitting you on a 2 anyways, so it makes no difference whether your AC is 0 or -100.

There are a lot of ways to dump your AC. Charging, shock trooper, ronin charge, robilar's gambit, punishing stance, rage, frenzy. Don't even bother raising your AC.

Don't forget displacement. A 50% miss chance suddenly never seemed more useful.