A hypothetical scenario... (3.5)

[Raewyn]

My current DM took over after the previous DM was deployed. Rather than keep running the game in his stead, Current DM started up a new game in the same universe. My PF character was very hacky-slashy, so I decided to play a telepath in the new game. The characters are pretty similar in role (telepath w/ mindbender dip vs beguiler w/ mindbender dip) and there is a (rather strong) possibility that they will encounter each other in game. I jokingly said, "They'd probably try to dominate as soon as they saw each other," which leads me to the question...

What happens if two casters simultaneously cast Dominate on each other and both fail the Will save?

Interested in both RaW and RaI explanations.

[The Dark Fiddler]

I'm... uh.... pretty sure there's no way to simultaneously cast a spell, baring readied actions (and possibly not even then).

[sreservoir]

What happens if a dominated creature is ordered to dominate its dominator?

(lol, the best spelling the spell-check could come up with was 'dominatrix'.

[Raewyn]

I'm... uh.... pretty sure there's no way to simultaneously cast a spell, baring readied actions (and possibly not even then).

Okay, that basically throws RAW at the window. When I pitched this hypothetical to the DM, he was all "Rawr rawr rawr Initiative checks rawr."

So assume that it's possible to cast simultaneously, is there any answer to this other than ?

[Private-Prinny]

I would just rule that they counterspell each other.

[Kurald Galain]

Well, logically, either they would both just stand there doing nothing waiting for the other guy to give them an order, or you'd get one of those resonance cascade sequences that deposits both of them on the positive material.

[lsfreak]

I'm... uh.... pretty sure there's no way to simultaneously cast a spell, baring readied actions (and possibly not even then).

This. One WILL happen first. Even with readied actions, the readied action is completed before the action that triggered it. RAW-wise, this situation never comes up.

The exception being if they both have a surprise round (keep in mind normally, it would be initiative for who goes first, but if there are other combatants that are unaware, there will be surprise). In which case, I'd rule it comes down to initiative checks (I do Initiative before the surprise round starts to keep this kind of thing from happening).

Logic-wise... I'm not sure. One will still happen before the other, but might happen in such a small timeframe that the other person gets their spell off too. I have no idea. Possible the one who gets dominated first utterly stops all actions until given orders, including completing the spell. Maybe they both just stand there until one of them makes a Wills save (their friends will try and figureout what happened, make them snap out of it, etc.).

[boomwolf]

Or, if you want to be REALLY creative, each "mind" controls the other "body"

Not really RAW, but it works funny as hell.



BTW-I think there is ruling about syncing actions to happen simultaneously.

Its like two people shooting each other. the effect is "instant", but not "instant" enough to forbid the other one pulling the trigger before getting hit.

[Riffington]

Why do we need to sync them at all?
If someone Dominates you, you can then Dominate them back. It's only once they both Dominate you and then give you commands that you can't Dominate them back.

Actually, that brings up an unclear question for me: how clever can they be carrying out your orders? If you say "kill him", would they normally attack right away with the battleax in their hand, or would they go run away and ambush the guy in his sleep?

If the former, using Dominate (a command or spell) is precluded by having a different command active. If the latter, the Dominated person can realize that the most effective method to accomplish this goal they have is to Dominate you and/or order you to help...

[Runestar]

I am pretty sure dominate does not dictate a person's thoughts.

I would say they can now each control the other person's movement. Which can be quite funny - I imagine they will be trying to keep each other in line by threatening to harm their bodies if they ever tried to do anything funny.

Something like "I won't make you jump off a cliff if you don't make me jump off one."

[JeminiZero]

I'm... uh.... pretty sure there's no way to simultaneously cast a spell, baring readied actions (and possibly not even then).

Craft Contingent Spell: When someone casts an offensive spell at me, retaliate by targetting him with Dominate*.

*Note: This is a badly planned contingency. It only triggers (instantly) after the other person's spell is complete. A smarter wizard might word it as something like "when someone tries to target me with an offensive spell".

[Tinydwarfman]

Craft Contingent Spell: When someone casts an offensive spell at me, retaliate by targetting him with Dominate*.

*Note: This is a badly planned contingency. It only triggers (instantly) after the other person's spell is complete. A smarter wizard might word it as something like "when someone tries to target me with an offensive spell".

Even so, it would still happen before the other person's Dominate.

[JeminiZero]

Even so, it would still happen before the other person's Dominate.

Perhaps I should elaborate on the scenario a bit more. Imagine Wizard 2 has the above contingency:

Wizard 1: I win initiative and cast dominate on Wizard 2
Wizard 2: Oh no, I fail my will save. Wait! Since Dominate counts as an offensive spell my contingency goes off! You are also targetted by dominate
Wizard 1: Crap! I fail my will save as well!
Both: ...
Wizard 2: Ok, so now what?

[Solaris]

You wind up with two people drooling for a while.

[Nero24200]

I believe they would both vanish in a puff of logic.

Though generally, casting a spell at a foe who is casting the exact same spell as you is basically what counterspelling is, so I would rule it that the spells cancel each other out.

[Tinydwarfman]

Perhaps I should elaborate on the scenario a bit more. Imagine Wizard 2 has the above contingency:

Wizard 1: I win initiative and cast dominate on Wizard 2
Wizard 2: Oh no, I fail my will save. Wait! Since Dominate counts as an offensive spell my contingency goes off! You are also targetted by dominate
Wizard 1: Crap! I fail my will save as well!
Both: ...
Wizard 2: Ok, so now what?

I guess that would be up to the GM, but depending on the wording of the contingency, I would say it interrupts the other caster like this:

Wizard 1: I win initiative and cast dominate on Wizard 2
Wizard 2: Ah ha! My contingency goes off, and you are dominated!
Wizard 1: Oh noes! *stands there and drools*

You know, like celerity. As far as I know, there is no stack in D&D.

[JeminiZero]

I guess that would be up to the GM, but depending on the wording of the contingency, I would say it interrupts the other caster like this:

Which is why I specified that it had to be a badly planned contingency, which goes off after the other guy completes his spell..

[Volkov]

Reality gets a headache and an army of angry glass golems come out of nowhere and kill both of the offending wizards.

[Tinydwarfman]

Which is why I specified that it had to be a badly planned contingency, which goes off after the other guy completes his spell..

Oh, true, missed that. I thought you were referring to your second example.

[Runestar]

I believe they would both vanish in a puff of logic.

Though generally, casting a spell at a foe who is casting the exact same spell as you is basically what counterspelling is, so I would rule it that the spells cancel each other out.

Although when counterspelling, you are specifically altering the way the spell is cast so it counters the other spell, rather than going off itself.

[boomwolf]

I guess that would be up to the GM, but depending on the wording of the contingency, I would say it interrupts the other caster like this:

Wizard 1: I win initiative and cast dominate on Wizard 2
Wizard 2: Ah ha! My contingency goes off, and you are dominated!
Wizard 1: Oh noes! *stands there and drools*

You know, like celerity. As far as I know, there is no stack in D&D.

What if the contingency is worded "if someone HITS me with a spell"? then it clearly triggers only AFTER you got dominated, but it still dominates the other because it is an automatic response you cannot stop even if he ordered you to.

[Swordgleam]

I am pretty sure dominate does not dictate a person's thoughts.

I would say they can now each control the other person's movement. Which can be quite funny - I imagine they will be trying to keep each other in line by threatening to harm their bodies if they ever tried to do anything funny.

Something like "I won't make you jump off a cliff if you don't make me jump off one."

I vote for this outcome, as being both the most logical and the most hilarious.

[Jack_Simth]

My current DM took over after the previous DM was deployed. Rather than keep running the game in his stead, Current DM started up a new game in the same universe. My PF character was very hacky-slashy, so I decided to play a telepath in the new game. The characters are pretty similar in role (telepath w/ mindbender dip vs beguiler w/ mindbender dip) and there is a (rather strong) possibility that they will encounter each other in game. I jokingly said, "They'd probably try to dominate as soon as they saw each other," which leads me to the question...

What happens if two casters simultaneously cast Dominate on each other and both fail the Will save?

Interested in both RaW and RaI explanations.

Well, interestingly, Dominate Person says nothing about what happens before you give an order - just "once you give an order". Technically, until you receive an order from your dominator, you still have free will.

So whichever Wizard can take a move action first, and use that to give a command preventing the other from giving a command. AKA, initiative (and most tricks, such as readied actions to cast spells, contingent spells, and such, don't prevent the initiator from giving a command, as it's still the initiator's turn ... although they could work in combination - not that I've yet seen a Contingency let you target other people without setting the contingency up on them in the first place).

[Tinydwarfman]

What if the contingency is worded "if someone HITS me with a spell"? then it clearly triggers only AFTER you got dominated, but it still dominates the other because it is an automatic response you cannot stop even if he ordered you to.

That was what he was actually talking about.

[KillianHawkeye]

The exception being if they both have a surprise round (keep in mind normally, it would be initiative for who goes first, but if there are other combatants that are unaware, there will be surprise). In which case, I'd rule it comes down to initiative checks (I do Initiative before the surprise round starts to keep this kind of thing from happening).

During a surprise round, any non-surprised combatants roll their initiative as normal to determine the sequence of actions. Surprised characters wait until the first full round of combat before rolling initiative. You don't need to house rule this, it already exists.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Assuming either something convoluted or a hand wave if they both hit the spell on each other whoever got the first action could command the other not to give them commands then they would be in control.

Now rule of cool yeah have them each have absolute control over the others physical actions or minswitch them or something.

[Lysander]

Here's another hypothetical question:

Can you use dominate on an ally to protect them from dominate spells?

[Riffington]

Here's another hypothetical question:

Can you use dominate on an ally to protect them from dominate spells?

It's a limited protection - you can presumably be Dominated by multiple people, though I suppose if your commands conflict with the commands given by the other dominator it makes all of them conflicted.

But 1. why aren't you just using protection from evil instead?
2. Subjects resist such control... may not be your ally for long if you do this frequently.

[weenie]

What about that metamagic, that lets a spell repeat itself the next round?

A caster casts it metamagicked on the first round, but the other caster resists it, then dominates caster 1 on his turn and at the beginning of the next round the second dominate kicks in, but caster 2 fails his save. What happens now?

[Hand_of_Vecna]

You should have them to busy following orders to give them. Anything cool happening here pretty much requires a hand wave to work or one will be commanded not to give commands.