Questions on Running an E6 Gestalt Campaign

[Maeglin_Dubh]

So, I'm going to be running an E6 Gestalt campaign, and I had a few questions.

I tried using search to find things on E6, but the search engine tells me that my term is too short to use.

Anyways....

We're doing Gestalt, and I was wondering how BAB is usually calculated, whether it's just taking whichever side has the best progression, or something else entirely. I once saw an example of a Fighter/Sorceror//Wizard, where taking only one level of fighter and alternating the BAB gain of the Sorc and the Wizard got you full BAB, but that seems a little off.

The other thing I was wondering was about magic items. Is there any particular way to determine the rough power level of a certain item? Also, would it be unbalanced to allow a +1 cost power to be placed on an item that was merely masterwork, and not itself already enchanted to +1? I'd like to place a soft limit of +2 on magic armor/weapons, with some artifacts held by powerful world figures reaching +3, but a +2 cap doesn't leave the players much room for adding things.

[Eldariel]

So, I'm going to be running an E6 Gestalt campaign, and I had a few questions.

I tried using search to find things on E6, but the search engine tells me that my term is too short to use.

Anyways....

We're doing Gestalt, and I was wondering how BAB is usually calculated, whether it's just taking whichever side has the best progression, or something else entirely. I once saw an example of a Fighter/Sorceror//Wizard, where taking only one level of fighter and alternating the BAB gain of the Sorc and the Wizard got you full BAB, but that seems a little off.

Use fractional BAB. That is, use the progressions rather than the listed values. So Fighter grants +1 per level, Cleric +0.75 and Wizard +0.5. This way, Sorc/Wiz still gets +0.5 and Fighter 1/Wizard 5//Sorcerer 6 ends up with 1+0.5*5 = 3.5 (rounded down always = 3) BAB as he should.

The other thing I was wondering was about magic items. Is there any particular way to determine the rough power level of a certain item? Also, would it be unbalanced to allow a +1 cost power to be placed on an item that was merely masterwork, and not itself already enchanted to +1? I'd like to place a soft limit of +2 on magic armor/weapons, with some artifacts held by powerful world figures reaching +3, but a +2 cap doesn't leave the players much room for adding things.

Eh, handwave that. Mechanically, a +2 sword isn't much stronger than a +1 sword anyways especially with the bonus-based Damage Reduction gone from the system. What's really impressive are various magical abilities so make swords with multiple abilities rare and powerful artifacts created by people of a greater age, while the stuff even strongest modern artificers can do is only a pale imitation.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Alright, that makes sense.

Are there other resources on this site for E6? Like I said, searching for it doesn't work...

[the_archduke]

Search "e6 d&d"

[valadil]

I had an idea a while ago for what I call E Gestalt (or G6) that might appeal to you. When you hit 6 (or whatever level is considered epic in this game), instead of picking up feats as you would in E6 normally, you'd start filling in a gestalt class next to the current one. When that class fills up you'd take a third gestalt. So a level 18 character would be a level 6 triple gestalt with three classes. The next level would have them adding in a 4th class.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

I had an idea a while ago for what I call E Gestalt (or G6) that might appeal to you. When you hit 6 (or whatever level is considered epic in this game), instead of picking up feats as you would in E6 normally, you'd start filling in a gestalt class next to the current one. When that class fills up you'd take a third gestalt. So a level 18 character would be a level 6 triple gestalt with three classes. The next level would have them adding in a 4th class.

That actually sounds kinda interesting...

How far did you get with it?

How do you deal with the HD/BAB/Saves of one class overwriting the old one?

Search "e6 d&d"

Doesn't work.... I get the message

Sorry - no matches. Please try some different terms.
The following words are either very common, too long, or too short and were not included in your search : "e6

[FirebirdFlying]

Use Google, and search "site:giantitp.com E6" (without the quotes).

There've been some interesting threads.

[valadil]

That actually sounds kinda interesting...

How far did you get with it?

How do you deal with the HD/BAB/Saves of one class overwriting the old one?

I posted about it previously. Other people thought it sounded interesting, but to my knowledge nobody has run a game this way yet. If my group tires of 4e I may try it.

I treat HD/BAB/Saves as gestalt does. A fighter/rogue/wizard would have full bab, all good saves, d10 hp, and 8+ skills per level. If they started fighter and then added the other two BAB would always be high. If they went wizard to rogue to fighter, BAB would increase during each iteration.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Well, I already had a player make his Dwarven Fighter/Rogue, so I probably won't switch over to G6 for this run, but the idea is interesting.

Most of my (somewhat minimal) prep so far has been based on the assumption that the PC's will have the stamina afforded them by multiple classes, so that's probably what I'll stick with.

At least one other player is going Ranger/Wizard, and I don't know how the rest of the party will go. I told them just about anything is fair game, but they're not always the most imaginative lot. (Our current "The Hobbit" game features multiple identical Dwarven Fighters. As PC's. The only two that break the mold are myself, the Scout, and the guy playing a Ranger.)

[JaxGaret]

G6 sounds like it might be pretty promising. If I ever get back into roleplaying, I may have to try that.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

I offered the players two options for their first dungeon, goblins or kobolds. I told them goblins would be martial and divine in focus, with warriors, heroes, and shaman, and the kobolds would be stealth and arcane in focus, with rogues, scouts, and sorcerors.

They opted for goblins, which means the kobolds are going to have more time to prepare.

Suggestions for class combinations for either of these dungeons are appreciated.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The search worked fine for me.

For magic item creation, keep in mind that an item's caster level is not a requirement for crafting it. For example, an Amulet of Natural Armor:

Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, barkskin, creator’s caster level must be at least three times the amulet’s bonus; Price 2,000 gp (+1), 8,000 gp (+2), 18,000 gp (+3), 32,000 gp (+4), or 50,000 gp (+5).

You have the Detect Magic and Dispel Magic information first, then the item's prerequisites: School; Caster Level; Prerequisites. Note that the item's caster level is always 5th, so it would be a DC 16 to use Dispel Magic to render it useless for several rounds. To make one the creator's caster level must be at least three times the amulet's bonus, so even though a +5 amulet must be created by someone with a caster level of 15, the +5 amulet's caster level is still only 5th.

As another example, take the Speed weapon property:

Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Price +3 bonus.

Again, the Detect Magic and Dispel Magic information is first, and the prerequisites to make it can be fulfilled by a 5th level Wizard, since an item's caster level is not among the requirements to crate it. Therefore, despite costing a +3 bonus, an E6 character could make a +1 Speed weapon without any added difficulty. It takes 1280 XP to create a +4 equivalent weapon, which is a fairly big hit in the lower levels but affordable by level two. While an E6 character couldn't put anything higher than a +2 Enhancement bonus on a weapon, there's nothing stopping them from loading one up with special abilities.


For the Kobolds, I'd include Dragonfire Adepts with Entangling Exhalation and tower shields, Warriors with longspears and Stand Still, and Sorcerers with Ray of Flame. Plus lots and lots of pit traps, bales of straw to ignite and roll down corridors, and tunnels so small only a tiny-size creature could fit through but kobolds can somehow navigate them. Those tunnels can lead up to openings high in the walls where the sorcerers can attack from, and serve as a shortcut to further rooms to set up ambushes.

For the Goblins, I'd use Adepts with Bless and Cause Fear, the Warriors printed in the Monster Manual, and the occasional 1st level Fighter with Shield Specialization and Intimidating Strike. For the Fighters be sure to use the elite array (15,14,13,12,10,8) and put the 14 on Cha.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Something else for the kobolds....

What the party (and everyone else in the area) doesn't know is that the kobolds have a purpose. They're attempting to excavate a long-dead dracoliche.

The Dracoliche is buried under the remains of an old Maverick Templar outpost. What brought the kobolds to the attention of the locals was thefts of mining equipment, and the death of watchmen following the trail of the thieves. Signs pointed towards the old outpost, and it was eventually discovered to be kobolds, but nobody thought to check deeper into what they were planning.

Since the players went for the goblins first, the kobolds have had more time to work on their excavation. Maybe the dracoliche has an arm free, and will swipe blindly at anything that disturbs the digging.

((Yes, I know the Dracoliche is a pretty serious threat. Thus why I'm allowing the players to thwart it by stopping it before it emerges. Gives them the sense that there are bigger, nastier things in the world, and that they're not guaranteed a pushover fight, even against kobolds.))

[absolmorph]

Depending on how large the dracolich is, an arm and an eye would be pretty awesome to have excavated.
Of course, my image of any undead dragon was created by this video, so I always imagine them with eyes of blue flame. If my mental image is incorrect, just the arm works.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Depending on how large the dracolich is, an arm and an eye would be pretty awesome to have excavated.
Of course, my image of any undead dragon was created by this video, so I always imagine them with eyes of blue flame. If my mental image is incorrect, just the arm works.

I think this video would be a bit more relevant.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

I think this video would be a bit more relevant.

Funny Story.

On the NWN Persistent World I play on, the admin actually wrote a script that made several PC's sing and dance that song upon completing a quest.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Bumping to ask:

What PrC's would be worth recommending to my players? As this is E6, they will probably only be able to take one level in a PrC, if any, but which ones could you qualify for at level 5 that are worth it for just the first level?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Mindbender, Dragonslayer, any spellcaster PrC which wouldn't cost them any spellcasting levels, though most characters would want to stay single-classed for the capstone feats.

[Calimehter]

The search worked fine for me.

For magic item creation, keep in mind that an item's caster level is not a requirement for crafting it.

.................

As another example, take the Speed weapon property:

Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Price +3 bonus.

Again, the Detect Magic and Dispel Magic information is first, and the prerequisites to make it can be fulfilled by a 5th level Wizard, since an item's caster level is not among the requirements to crate it. Therefore, despite costing a +3 bonus, an E6 character could make a +1 Speed weapon without any added difficulty. It takes 1280 XP to create a +4 equivalent weapon, which is a fairly big hit in the lower levels but affordable by level two. While an E6 character couldn't put anything higher than a +2 Enhancement bonus on a weapon, there's nothing stopping them from loading one up with special abilities.

On page 215 of the DMG, it states that "For other [i.e. not a wand, potion, or scroll] magic items the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level".

So I was under the impression that (without house rules or feats) an E6 caster could not create any special ability (weapon or otherwise) that had a CL > 6. Did I miss an FAQ, or am I reading that bit in the DMG wrong?

[taltamir]

this a pretty cool idea...
so, question. Which is the best way to go about such a game?

I have considered the following:
1. wizard 6/druid 6/sorcerer 6
2. wizard 6/barbarian 6 (good bab, fort, and will, d12, wizard casting, damage reduction, rage, fast movement, and uncanny dodge)... replace barb with something better if non core is allowed.
3. Warlock 6/something... warlocks get flight at will at level 6!

so, what do you guys think?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

this a pretty cool idea...
so, question. Which is the best way to go about such a game?

I have considered the following:
1. wizard 6/druid 6/sorcerer 6
2. wizard 6/barbarian 6 (good bab, fort, and will, d12, wizard casting, damage reduction, rage, fast movement, and uncanny dodge)... replace barb with something better if non core is allowed.
3. Warlock 6/something... warlocks get flight at will at level 6!

so, what do you guys think?

That's not how E6 works. Characters don't get above level 6, period. At Wizard 6, you cannot gain any more levels, you're at the maximum level for the game. Nobody you meet will be higher than level 6. After 6th level, every 5,000 XP you gain gives you an additional feat.


As for the required caster level to create magic items, check the DMG Errata. There was a long discussion on the WotC boards some time within the first few years of 3.5's release regarding this. The developers were involved, and it was clearly stated that it was never intended for an item's caster level to be one of its prerequisites. The SRD has the current wording as per errata.

[Calimehter]

Thanks for the heads-up on that errata.

I'm probably going to keep with the DMG rule 'as written' for my current campaign, simply because it fits better with the flavor of the world it is set in, and I've already written up some homebrew "epic" E6 feats to let casters boost their effective CL for purposes of making higher powered magic items if they want to make the investment to do so. But that's neither here nor there for this discussion, and it doesn't make the errata knowledge any less valuable for future use.

[Murphy80]

My gaming group ran a GE8 (that how I indicate Gestalt Epic) and my suggestions would be;

- Limit multiclassing to the 2 classes you start with
- limit the number of rogues
(in a group of 10 characters, only 2 didn't have at least 2 levels of rogue - giving almost everyone evasion)
- Make PRC into groups of feats
- use higher level spells as rituals

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general...nside-d-d.html

The adding on of additional class is an idea we have kicked around, but haven't playtested yet. The general thought is that most characters would end up looking fairly similar after gaining 3 or 4 class (full bab/skillmonkey/caster/...). Maybe allow PRC to be added. But then what to do about the +1 caster levels of PRC?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I ran an E6 game a while back with a bit of an acquired gestalt system. Characters got a feat at every level (no flaws), and after 6th level the next six virtual levels gained added a gestalt class level next to what they already had, along with a feat as normal. I used fractional BAB and base saves, and anything that improved at a given level would be updated. If a gestalt class level gave more skill points than that original level, their current skill ranks would stay the same but they would gain the difference as additional skill points to spend at that level. As normal for gestalt, you can't take the same class twice, and you can't double-advance the same class feature. It allowed for prestige classes to be gained along side their original levels.

For example, say a character goes Druid 6, then on their first virtual level they add Barbarian 1 next to Druid 1. Their BAB increases by 0.25 (0.75 for Druid is replaced by 1 for Barbarian), their skill ranks are unchanged as both classes get equal skill points/level. Saves are unchanged, their d8 HD changes to a D12, and they get the Barbarian 1 class features. On their next five virtual levels they take Warshaper, their saves, skills, BAB, and HD are unchanged, and they gain the Warshaper class features. The character ends up being a Druid 6// Barbarian 1/ Warshaper 5, and the character was able to progress through twice as many class levels while staying limited to 6th.

As another example, say a character goes Wizard 3/ Master Specialist 3. Upon gaining virtual levels past that, he can gain more Master Specialist levels, but he cannot use them to increase his Wizard spellcasting if taken along side of Wizard, because that would violate the gestalt rules on progressing the same class feature. He also cannot take levels in two prestige classes at once, so after he gets to Wizard 3/ Master Specialist 3// Master Specialist 3, he'd have to pick a base class to advance for his last three gestalt virtual levels. That same character could instead go something like Beguiler 1/ Wizard 1/ Master Specialist 4// Master Specialist 2/ Beguiler 4, and end up with 6th level spellcasting in both classes.

One guy I play with loves Talon of Tiamat, so I made him a build that went something like Fighter 1/ Sorcerer 1/ Human Paragon 2/ Fighter +1/ Talon of Tiamat 1// Talon of Tiamat +5/ Human Paragon +1. That got 6th level spellcasting, 6th level Talon of Tiamat abilities, and a +5 BAB. He didn't get all the way through the build, but he really enjoyed the character.

Note that there can be some extremely strong builds with this. For example, a character could go Warblade 5/ Wizard 1// Abjurant Champion 5/ Warblade +1, and Quicken every Abjuration they cast for free. It's not extremely powerful until fairly late in its progression, so it probably won't become a problem, but it's good to be aware of things like that when using this houserule.

[taltamir]

That's not how E6 works. Characters don't get above level 6, period. At Wizard 6, you cannot gain any more levels, you're at the maximum level for the game. Nobody you meet will be higher than level 6. After 6th level, every 5,000 XP you gain gives you an additional feat..

the op explicitly told us he is running a custom E6 game where this IS how it works if I understood his posts correctly.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

the op explicitly told us he is running a custom E6 game where this IS how it works if I understood his posts correctly.

That's not how it works...
The game is Gestalt, but still only goes up to level 6.

So you could have the progression...

Fighter//Wizard
Fighter//Wizard
Fighter//Wizard
Rogue//Wizard
Rogue//Wizard
Rogue//Wizard

And you would end up as a Fighter3/Rogue3//Wizard6.

[taltamir]

That's not how it works...
The game is Gestalt, but still only goes up to level 6.

So you could have the progression...

Fighter//Wizard
Fighter//Wizard
Fighter//Wizard
Rogue//Wizard
Rogue//Wizard
Rogue//Wizard

And you would end up as a Fighter3/Rogue3//Wizard6.

ok, i see now... this actually works out better and only one suggestion needs changing though...

1. wizard 6//druid 6 (drop the sorc; the most spells and abilities in one tight package)
2. wizard 6//barbarian 6 (good bab, fort, and will, d12, wizard casting, damage reduction, rage, fast movement, and uncanny dodge)... replace barb with something better if non core is allowed.
2a. Actually a better one is probably druid6//Fighter 1/Barbarian 5.
3. Warlock 6//something... because warlocks get flight at will at level 6!

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Until I get around to my project of reflavoring the Warlock as the Elementalist, I'm leaving him off the table. We like our parties to not contain people courting demonic powers.

[taltamir]

a warlock as written by WOTC can get powers in the following ways:
1. Form a contract with a demonic/devilish powers (evil).
2. Form a contract with a fey power. (very chaotic, but not evil)
3. Form a contract with eladrin (which are chaotic good "angels" basically)
4. Be a direct descendant of anyone who has form any such contract in previous generations.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

3.5 doesn't have those options, to my knowledge.