Questions about star wars saga

[Elvenoutrider]

Ladies and gentlemen, I'm happy to announce Ive spent the semester running my first successful campaign using the d&d 3.5 system. My players spent the semester gripped by the story, thoroughly challenged by my adventures and felt sufficiently rewarded the entire time. they enjoyed my campaign to the point where they have demanded I continue it in the fall.

I'm looking forward to doing this but one day that campaign will come to an end and I'm looking for an adventure to run after that. I'm looking for the next campaign to run. I'm fairly certain at his point that i want to run a sci fi campaign which brings me to the title of this post:

Id like to run a game in the star wars universe but having played a star wars saga game before I have a few questions:

Question 1) To anyone who has played with this system: how long do the mechanics allow the system to be fun. My experience with d20 modern tells me its very difficult to keep the d20 system working in modern times after lvl 6. I'm looking for a campaign to last to lvl 10 at least. Assuming I have a good story with a balanced amount of challenges, will the system allow the game to stay fun for that long?

2) Fantasy games are good because there are always options for treasure to give the players even into epic levels. in sci fi not so much: Does the system allow me to keep my players feeling "rewarded" into high levels

3) How easy is it to break characters in star wars saga and is there anything i should watch out for?

4) Is there anything else I should know or prepare for?

[Binks]

1. I'd say it works pretty well at decently high levels. Took a pair of players all the way up to 20 in one campaign and while they weren't really ever in any serious danger (even against the BBEG) the combat was challenging. With the lack of magic items I'd say Saga lasts until at least level 10 or so before balance starts to become a serious issue. Fun-wise I enjoyed all the way to 20, and my players did as well.

2. Depends on your player's goals. You can't really play towards items but other rewards (credits, destiny bonuses, in-game rewards) work pretty well. The simple reward of leveling up goes a long way in saga IMHO since you pretty much get a new 'toy' at each level (there's only a few levels, <3 for a normal build, where you don't get either a talent or a feat).

3. Realistically it's pretty hard, you have to work towards it. The two major broken areas are the so-called 'CT Killer' and 'Force Wizard' builds.

The first is based around moving opponents down the condition track as quickly as possible. It's bread and butter is the bounty hunter and gunslinger prestige classes, both of which have talents that move targets down the CT if you aim (that stack) and the scoundrel base class for the Dastardly strike talent. It suffers a bit in the accuracy department (low BaB progression) but it's simple, effective, and built right can kill Vader at level 8-10 or so.

The second is just pumping charisma, getting skill training and focus in use the force, then taking as many force trainings as possible. Since you can get a +10 bonus to utf at level 1 with training and focus you can effectively be 'attacking' at a much higher level, a good wizard build can get a +15 or so right off the bat, which allows for some pretty powerful stuff, and it doesn't really taper off at any point. Be wary of high utf jedi.

4. Be ready for group members calling you out on canon issues. I've been on the receiving (and dealing, unfortunately) side of that before, and it's rather annoying. The best thing to do IMHO is either set your game in a less well known timeperiod (KOTOR and Legacy era would great for this) or just call it an 'Infinities' game (for huge fans that means it's non-canon for fun)

Hope you enjoy Saga, it's a great system IMHO, even if the devs do seem to love introducing new ways to break the game in every book (the examples I gave are really just the tip of the iceberg, but unless you have some professional munchkins they're all you really have to worry about).

[Somebloke]

Is me or is there some inbuilt safeguard to stop players abusing the 'all of your skills at level 1' policy by taking, say, scoundrel/noble at level 1 and then soldier/jedi for the remaining levels?

[AstralFire]

Is me or is there some inbuilt safeguard to stop players abusing the 'all of your skills at level 1' policy by taking, say, scoundrel/noble at level 1 and then soldier/jedi for the remaining levels?

You don't get the fat HP bonus and all of those extra feats. Sometimes there's a good incentive to dip Jedi or Noble first if that's not gonna be your main focus, but Saga's pretty good about encouraging you to make level 1 be of your focus class. Force Sensitive humans get the most leeway on this.

Saga works way better than d20 modern (or well, ANYTHING branded with the d20 logo - D&D included), the two just do not even compare.

Rewarding players materially in Star Wars is more about giving them contacts, ships, vehicles, bases, ship upgrades, etc. Scum & Villainy and Starships of the Galaxy are great for that. However, there are a bunch of pricey or literally priceless gadgets and artifacts (Scum & Villainy, Jedi Academy Training Manual are great for this, there's some good stuff scattered around other books) that also make good rewards. The difference is more that the rewards tend to add options in and out of combat rather than making you significantly better (with no drawbacks) at what you can already do.

Even a trooper in powered armor can have a lot of situations in SW Saga where they're not armored; the system is designed better, and the setting calls for it more. While an armor-based Fighter caught with his pants down at high level in D&D is pretty much useless, his equivalent in the GFFA is still a major contributor.

[raitalin]

Is me or is there some inbuilt safeguard to stop players abusing the 'all of your skills at level 1' policy by taking, say, scoundrel/noble at level 1 and then soldier/jedi for the remaining levels?

Other than the fact that Jedi/soldiers get a BAB at first have more HP and better starting feats? Not really.

1. Yes, though creative encounters go a long way towards making this possible. Hazards, unusual conditions and unique settings are your friends.

2.The best motivators I've found in SWSE are vehicles of ever-increasing size and Power. Whether its control of a gang of toughs, being the premier crime boss in a city or running a pirate fleet, Power is the easiest thing to hand out. YMMV, as my SWSE games tend toward the political.

3. Binks has got you covered. All in all, SWSE is the least munchkin-friendly of the 3e family.

[AstralFire]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6651498 is a good beginner's guide to Saga, by the way.

[Gamgee]

The condition track killer has been mentioned, and that's about it. It can easily be defeated by a swarm of smaller opponents. As opposed to focusing in killing many.

Jedi can be broken at low levels and the so called "force wizards". But by end game around the mid way level 10 they are seriously going to suffer. Defenses and BAB scale exponentially, and you sort of peak out on skills. They really can't catch up. This is okay for most skills, but for UTF that means your not hitting as often, and your force powers will be vastly outclassed in terms of damage compared to a lightsaber focused Jedi.

Force Wizards are only problems at low levels to mid levels. Only the most focused in charisma and possibly with a destiny bonus to Use the Force could possibly remain viable at the upper levels.

Other than those it is a remarkably well balanced system. Oh and stay away from the feats that let you to reduce MAD. They allow you to use one ability score for more things. Usually defense related. Totally imbalanced, and it breaks the heavy MAD most classes have going on.

I know it sounds weird, but it is well balanced when all abilities are useful to most classes. And with all the multiclassing? It's usually good to have well rounded stats.

Edit
If you use a point buy th3e force wizard shouldn't be a problem. To pump his charisma he would seriously need to hinder his other stats. Jedi only get 2 base skills + any other extra trained skills. Also if Jedi aren't careful a well built soldier will pound them into the ground. These two classes go toe to toe excellently even though you wouldn't think it.

[AstralFire]

Uh, Force Wizard doesn't really have issues with point buy - that's why it's so strong at lower levels, it's SAD as hell in a MAD game. CT Killers and Force Wizards can focus on one stat relatively well.

It's also worth noting that Force Wizard actually does have a significant limit in Dark Side points - if you actually treat DSPs as strictly as the game suggests, it's hard to not get turned into an evil NPC if you're abusing Move Object a whole lot. The main issue is that that treatment also limits other Force users a little too much. Dark Side Points are very heavily a matter of GM discretion, I will say, and should be given more freely at low levels (which does a good job of modeling both game balance and the actual fiction.)

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, Force powers can be a real pain, especially at lower levels.

In case you don't know, the problem arises from the different way that skill bonuses and defenses scale. At very low levels, the +5 you get from being trained (and the additional +5 you get if you take Skill Focus) makes it ridiculously easy to beat your opponents' defenses with your Use the Force check. However, since defenses increase with the characters' level while skills increase with the level/2, at high levels it can become much harder to hit with your powers.

Based on my own experiences, this is a way bigger problem than a highly specific build designed to abuse the condition track. (In fact, in my games I felt the condition track didn't get enough use at all.)



EDIT: Also, make sure you check out the errata. It makes a huge difference.

[Kiero]

Is me or is there some inbuilt safeguard to stop players abusing the 'all of your skills at level 1' policy by taking, say, scoundrel/noble at level 1 and then soldier/jedi for the remaining levels?

What's abusive about it? It's a tradeoff plain and simple. A little combat juice at the start for a lot more versatility outside of combat in the long run.

And the options are Scout or Noble, Scoundrel isn't as good. I went Scout/Jedi in the SE game we played. Just as good as the pure Jedi in melee (though a little weaker in powers), much more useful outside of combat.

[KillianHawkeye]

And the options are Scout or Noble, Scoundrel isn't as good. I went Scout/Jedi in the SE game we played. Just as good as the pure Jedi in melee (though a little weaker in powers), much more useful outside of combat.

Scouts may get more skills than a Scoundrel, but Scoundrels have a better skill list.

[AstralFire]

Scoundrel also gets some excellent offensive talents. Different focuses.

[OldFart]

Only other SAD v. MAD issue that hasn't been mentioned is the potential to substitute UtF for most other skills in the game. Given, it usually costs one talent/skill to do so. The worst offenders IMNSHO are substituting for initiative, given that it occurs every combat (from the core book), and the one that allows UtF to substitute for all knowledge skills (don't remember the name and source).

[AstralFire]

For Force Users, talents (like general purpose bonus feats) are so pricey I can almost never actually fit those into my builds, personally. Spending class bonus feats on skills is usually preferable as a Jedi.

[Attilargh]

The ease of getting a high UtF modifier at first level has been mentioned, but I think it bears repeating. Because really, especially the mookier enemies just don't have the Defenses to stand against a Jedi with a Focus. For example, a Sith Trooper's Will is a lowly 10. I know mooks are supposed to be easy prey for Mind Tricks and such, but not even having to roll is a tad too easy.

In the game I run, I personally decided to take the easy way out and ban Skill Focus on Use the Force. It's not the most elegant of approaches, but it works.

[AstralFire]

The ease of getting a high UtF modifier at first level has been mentioned, but I think it bears repeating. Because really, especially the mookier enemies just don't have the Defenses to stand against a Jedi with a Focus. For example, a Sith Trooper's Will is a lowly 10. I know mooks are supposed to be easy prey for Mind Tricks and such, but not even having to roll is a tad too easy.

In the game I run, I personally decided to take the easy way out and ban Skill Focus on Use the Force. It's not the most elegant of approaches, but it works.

It'd be much better to make it require level 9 or 10 than to outright ban it, and it doesn't require any work on the part of the DM.

A more involved fix is the Force Attack roll, which turns UtF against a defense into Heroic Level + Cha + 1 for Trained + 1 for Focus + d20.

[Attilargh]

My excuse is that the game is supposed to be just a short, self-contained adventure, and the characters will probably never reach double-digit levels. Of course, if they do (and we find another Jedi to replace the one that simply disappeared between sessions), I might consider reintroducing the feat. After all, without it the effectiveness of Force powers plunge into uselessness pretty fast.

[AstralFire]

Do consider one or both options mentioned. -nods- But understood.

[Kiero]

It'd be much better to make it require level 9 or 10 than to outright ban it, and it doesn't require any work on the part of the DM.

IMO, this is a pretty elegant approach. Stops it skewing lower levels, while not nerfing higher ones.

4) Is there anything else I should know or prepare for?

Start characters at level 3 or 4. You get much more interesting ones that way, and you could level them slower after that point if you like.

[IdleMuse]

One of the other options I've seen for SF:UTF is to cap the bonus it gives at your character level, so you can still take it at level 1-5, but it won't give the whole bonus. This is still pretty powerful (mostly only useful for nerfing the very low levels), so I'd suggest capping it at half your class level instead, so it takes until level 10 to reach full power.

[Mongoose87]

One of the other options I've seen for SF:UTF is to cap the bonus it gives at your character level, so you can still take it at level 1-5, but it won't give the whole bonus. This is still pretty powerful (mostly only useful for nerfing the very low levels), so I'd suggest capping it at half your class level instead, so it takes until level 10 to reach full power.

Similarly, I'd suggest just making Skill Focus scale - make the bonus equal to level/3, minimum of 1, max of 5.

[AstralFire]

No. Skill Focus across most skills as a whole shouldn't work like that. Persuasion is a possible exception, but they took the current design route to allow NPCs and PCs who don't suck at their jobs but aren't tough as nails (lots of levels).

[Gamgee]

I have personally never had problems with force wizards. Just use some good tactics. Keep mooks in cover, and get some flanking bonuses up. Use aid another with the mooks and they will hit more often. Autofire also helps if they have deflect. As then they can't completely deflect the attack.

No matter what keep them in small groups. It's okay to use some mooks in dumb ways (like stormtroopers), but for more skilled mooks it keeps the immersion if they are actually more skilled tactics wise than outright skill and power.

Snipers can also deal wonderfully with force wizards, and poison. Counter force wizards can do an alright job as well. Only need a few rebukes to get in close and hammer them into the ground.

Finally no one can dodge the dark side of their actions or political fallout if they rip a chunk out of a very expensive and now safety hazard coruscant building.

[Attilargh]

I think no amount of tactics will shore the problem of a Jedi who can pick a any single mook-dude out of cover and into the firing line with Move Object, or simply command him to hotfoot it out of the fight scene with Mind Trick. In the worst case, without having to touch the dice once.

The difference in power between this sort of low-level Jedi and his party is just too big. If you try to fix this by improving the enemies, you might screw over the less-capable player characters.

Or so I suspect, at least. I'm too green a GM to have any actual hands-on experience on this matter.

[Gamgee]

I know a group of B1's took down an entire party once. I used aid another on the 8 of them. So I was making two attacks at like +7 or 8 forget which. Guaranteeing a hit on the parties low level Jedi. Then a Droideka off to the side to soak up some damage. I had the B1's spread out so the powers would minimize the number that would be hit. Not to mention they are immune to mind affecting powers.

Jedi got knocked out and the soldier had to save him. Jedi are good, but you just have to know how to handle them. Just don't do it for every fight or it makes everyone look like expert Jedi killers. :P

Social and Political situations also crush a Jedi.

[Kiero]

Social and Political situations also crush a Jedi.

They certainly do to single-classed Jedi. Those who start Noble, on the other hand, its a different story.

[Dr.Epic]

I played the D20 Star Wars game and found it didn't live up to regular D&D. Also, I found it odd that I found this thread while watching Empire on TV.

[AstralFire]

I played the D20 Star Wars game and found it didn't live up to regular D&D. Also, I found it odd that I found this thread while watching Empire on TV.

d20 Star Wars != Star Wars Saga.

Star Wars d20 < Star Wars d20 RCR < West End Games Star Wars d6 < Star Wars Saga Edition

[Kiero]

d20 Star Wars != Star Wars Saga.

Star Wars d20 < Star Wars d20 RCR < West End Games Star Wars d6 < Star Wars Saga Edition

Agreed. While I think there are plenty of other systems that do Star Wars better than those for which it has been licensed, Saga Edition is the best of the licensed ones.