Rant: High-Op Man, Low-Op World

[AtwasAwamps]

This is just another pointless rant triggered by a phone conversation with one of my fellow DMs.

TLDR: I am a high-op guy in a low-op group. Rant with me about your own “Odd-Man-Out” features in your group!

I know I seem to complain a bit about my group, but I’ll be fair, they’re good folks and an absolute blast to play with. This rant comes from pretty much nowhere beyond petty annoyance, but its still there.

See, I’m the newest player in my group by a long shot. By YEARS of experience in DnD 3.5, at least. For a while, I took what they said at face value, but then I got my hands on the books and started making my own assessments, then I started looking online…and then I realized that Good Gracious Mary, these guys are bad at the “game”. Understand that by the “Game” I don’t mean the actual process of playing, I mean the numbers behind the system that govern DnD.

The problem is that I am, at heart, an extremely numbers person. I love my numbers and I love cracking the whip and getting the feats and class features and tricks to fall into place and give me the most hilariously fun bang for my buck. This comes off of being a hardcore WoW player, so I generally try to temper it back, but its always going to bleed through a little bit. Now, to be fair, I also love roleplaying and do it quite a bit and absolutely love doing it, but I ALSO love mechanics.

The fellow who DMs when I’m not DMing is totally used to this and helps me play without going too far out of bounds. At our mutual silent agreement, my character is sort of the “buffoon” of the party. Because of that, he’s viewed as harmless. It works INCREDIBLY well, even after its become clear that my character has the highest damage potential in the party. It helps that the character in his game was created the first time I opened a book, but it uses Tome of Battle now and holds it own quite well. The issue is that other players have a tendency to bait me into arguments, especially when I’m running my own game.

Example: Someone building a chain tripping fighter asks me for build help as the DM. I outline the basics of a chain-tripper build and suggest things such as Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, and so on as gravy. Another player dips in and says “Before you take those, you want weapon focus and weapon specialization.” Despite my arguments, the other player remains adamant and my advice-seeker listens to him over me due to his experience playing a fighter and the fact that they are currently in a relationship. The party proceeds to have an ineffective front liner for the majority of an early level game, causing quite a few near-tpks as nobody was able to defend “the squishies”. Clever play from the psion player (the other DM mentioned above) has been the consistent savior of this party.

NOTE: After I “took the gloves off” in a session that killed three of seven characters, players in my game have asked for rebuilds to create slightly more effective characters. The chain tripper now has Combat Reflexes. Thank. God.

Example 2: My Imperious-Command based Champion of Gwynharrawyf is considered broken. My intimidate-to-cower ability is considered “Stronger than casting” and the fact that I can cast minor divine spells while raging is “very broken.” And, in addition? They gave me crap because “your barbarian can read.”

Example 3: The other “optimizers” at the table constantly challenge me because I absorb information quickly and they believe they have better “opti-fu” than me. I hold back repeatedly during these arguments, but tend to drop bombs when players get dismissive on me, such as when I was told I was stupid for positing that clerics and druid were both better frontliners than fighters, that at equally perfect levels of play a rogue would never beat a wizard, that banning evocation only really cost you contingency, that mystic theurge was a weak class, and so on.

The result of all this has been…odd. See, the group now knows I’m the “optimizer” in the group and come to me for advice on their builds and getting their characters to do what they want. They also vaguely resent my advice if it disagrees with their own (AKA, warning the guy making a warforged fighter that focusing on sundering may not be the greatest idea got me an irritated “Whatever”). When someone else is DMing, they ask me to hold back (which isn’t necessary, I always DO hold back and only encourage optimization in my own games). I do have an absolute blast playing with these guys and I’ve no intention of stopping, but every once in a while…I just want to bust out a ridiculous character or a half-optimized wizard, stomp a battle zone flat, and then go back to our regularly scheduled game.

Anyone else in a situation like this, where they have just one thing out of whack with everyone else in the group?

[Gnaeus]

A couple of games ago I made a character in a new game. A dwarf fighter-wizard gish. Simple build, Fighter 1/Wizard X. Plate mail. I just used spells with no somatic components (Blindness, Blur, True Strike, Displacement) or still spell and then hit things with my dwarven waraxe. No PRCs, all core. (OK, I probably had some non-core spells, but all my feats and all the spells I used often were core. Maybe Benign Transposition).

2 players left the game because "Wizards casting spells in armor is so broken" and "How can we compete with this cheesegrinder build?"

[mikej]

Wow, what you have there is a good rant.

Yeah, I'm the "Odd-Man-Out" in my group as well. Although, I don't find it really necessary to rant online about it. That's just me though, but I'am amused with the similarities.

[AtwasAwamps]

Although, I don't find it really necessary to rant online about it.

I have some steam that needs venting.

Yeah, I just needed to vent after a conversation about a session that was nearly a TPK because of a combination of clumsy houserules, bad play, and a Monk.

[Another_Poet]

I understand you frustration. I don't have nearly enough splat books to be a true optimizer but even just the fact that I built a conjuration-specalized wizard with a controller focus and batman capabilities puts me miles ahead of the group. We're in Ravenloft. Every session my wizard with his 30 AC (5th level!) runs out on front line and tanks. Every battle, I am the one who doesn't need healing (I might need to re-cast False Life but that's it). But these numbers may as well not exist. The cleric chides me ever turn, the rogue won't settle down until I read off my AC to him, etc. The fighter has learned to let me be because I give him an Enlarge Person or Haste every time he wants it.

My favourite is that the rogue jealously guards the privelege of opening doors or chests or walking first into new rooms. It doesn't matter that I'm immune to fire, immune to missile weapons, can absorb cold damage, have higher saves than him and just as good an AC; it would be a disaster in his mind to let the squishy wizard spring a trap. He also is not a fan of me using invisibility to come along on scouting runs (I partly understand that one because I might still make noise with less Stealth ranks than he has.)

However I try to stick to the roll of buffing the others and that earns me a lot of props. They are getting used to this wizard who does more than Fireball and can fit in anywhere there is a need. Like you said for your group it is a grudging acceptance, where they may not like it but then they're asking for build advice.

One thing I will say though is not to let it offend you that they don't take your build advice when you are GMing. Sure your point about Stand Still and Combat Reflexes was spot-on but there is something weird about taking the advice of the guy who is trying to kill you. Ultimately they have to make a team that works well as unit and that might be better serviced by the trust they show by taking each other's advice and having a shared idea of what a good build is. More fun to die together than to win while resenting each other, basically. In general I try to bite my tongue and not give build advice when I am GMing, though sometimes I can't help myself....

[boj0]

A thousand times yes!!!
My optimization is usually crude but very blatant (a high damage output warblade or a ridiculous stealth droid in SAGA) and my group considers anything I do to be grounds for suspicion (the party wizard who took leadership for a sorcerer cohort called my goliath warblade "broken" because of IHS and Strike of Perfect Clarity).

I mean it's not even that I try that hard to optimize, my knowledge of truly crazy thing is attributed to forum lurking, but everyone considers me the king of cheese in my group (well taking out an enemy base by myself was kind of extreme, but I could stealth and assassinate really well so hey, why not?)

So my plan is in the evil campaign that we start soon, I'm going full wizard possibly core-only just to show how bad(ass) a caster can really be.

So yes, I feel your pain of being the only one who cares about numbers as much as plot.

[mikej]

Yeah, I just needed to vent after a conversation about a session that was nearly a TPK because of a combination of clumsy houserules, bad play, and a Monk.

Trust me I sympathize with you.

[PId6]

Similar feelings here, though with me it's less of a me vs the world and more of a half vs half. Basically, half the group were new when they started and let me build their characters for them, leading to extremely optimized characters. The other half, who already knew the rules, have been playing for a while, and think dwarven defenders are good, have much less optimized characters. These guys kind of resent my advice (like when I say that Mind Flayer Monk isn't such a great combination) and end up getting overshadowed as a result. Had I known this beforehand, I probably wouldn't have set the optimization level as high as I did, but now it's a bit late barring a TPK reset (which is unlikely, with our characters). Oh well, next campaign.

[AtwasAwamps]

One thing I will say though is not to let it offend you that they don't take your build advice when you are GMing. Sure your point about Stand Still and Combat Reflexes was spot-on but there is something weird about taking the advice of the guy who is trying to kill you. Ultimately they have to make a team that works well as unit and that might be better serviced by the trust they show by taking each other's advice and having a shared idea of what a good build is. More fun to die together than to win while resenting each other, basically. In general I try to bite my tongue and not give build advice when I am GMing, though sometimes I can't help myself....

I don’t give it unless its asked for. If a player comes to me and asks me “Why isn’t my concept working out,” I’m happy to tell them how to fix it. I’ve warned them ahead of time that I’m using everything and they should too. They’re learning.

[Umael]

*read*

...

*wisely bites tongue*

[AtwasAwamps]

*read*

...

*wisely bites tongue*

"Roleplay don't rollplay", "Why don't you just let people play the way they want?" "Numbers aren't everything?"

Remember, I happily play my tendencies down and really really enjoy playing with these guys. Advice is only given when asked for and I only start talking hardcore op if I'm goaded into it by the other "optimizers".

I'd appreciate not being treated like some kind of callous and NUMBERS ONLY guy. I actually like the plot MORE than the numbers in any game I play. It just frustrates me that sometimes I am the only person thinking about the numbers.

Of course, if that wasn't the point of your post, my apologies. And yes, I know I have an ego. ::shrug:: Also I'm pretty.

[Umael]

"Roleplay don't rollplay", "Why don't you just let people play the way they want?" "Numbers aren't everything?"

Remember, I happily play my tendencies down and really really enjoy playing with these guys. Advice is only given when asked for and I only start talking hardcore op if I'm goaded into it by the other "optimizers".

I'd appreciate not being treated like some kind of callous and NUMBERS ONLY guy. I actually like the plot MORE than the numbers in any game I play. It just frustrates me that sometimes I am the only person thinking about the numbers.

Of course, if that wasn't the point of your post, my apologies. And yes, I know I have an ego. ::shrug:: Also I'm pretty.

((Oh, look, I just deleted my first response. That was annoying.))

No, it was nothing like that, although those are all good points to keep in mind.

It was more along the lines of "When in Rome..." and "You brought this on yourself".

They play Low-Op game. You are a High-Op person. There is going to be a clash if you try to get them to play the game your way.

If they play it their way, and have fun, no issue. If they play it their way, and get slaughtered, oh well.

It's a game. Roll with it.

[AtwasAwamps]

((Oh, look, I just deleted my first response. That was annoying.))

No, it was nothing like that, although those are all good points to keep in mind.

It was more along the lines of "When in Rome..." and "You brought this on yourself".

They play Low-Op game. You are a High-Op person. There is going to be a clash if you try to get them to play the game your way.

If they play it their way, and have fun, no issue. If they play it their way, and get slaughtered, oh well.

It's a game. Roll with it.

Yeah, that was kind of my point >< I'm rolling with it as best I can and frankly having a ball. Most of the optimization stuff comes OUTSIDE of the actual game, I peel back my character concepts, etc. etc. I'm PLAYING the low-op game and having fun with it. In the game where I am a bit ahead in party power level, it was partially at the DM's request because our front line was extremely weak and he wanted to be able to play challenging fights against us.

I just wanted to vent some steam, was all :(

EDIT: IE, I'm not trying to change my group or anything. I love them, love to play with them, love to DM for them. Just sometimes I want to bang my head on the table because they are really, really bad at the numbers side of it.

EDIT2: TELL ME I'M PRETTY.

[Umael]

I just wanted to vent some steam, was all :(

EDIT: IE, I'm not trying to change my group or anything. I love them, love to play with them, love to DM for them. Just sometimes I want to bang my head on the table because they are really, really bad at the numbers side of it.

Totally understandable. Which is part of why I held my tongue - I'm in a somewhat similar situation myself.

EDIT2: TELL ME I'M PRETTY.

Oh, ye gods, you're pretty!!!11!

(Happy? )

[AtwasAwamps]

Oh, ye gods, you're pretty!!!11!

(Happy? )

Yes. We are BFFs now. Will you come over and have cupcakes and Tippyverse with me?

(The cupcakes are strawberry!)

[jiriku]

'Wash, tell me I'm pretty...'

'Were I not married, I would take you in a manly fashion.'

'...cause I'm pretty?'

'Cause you're pretty.'

[Mongoose87]

Did you really have to say "The Game?"

[mostlyharmful]

The one you lost you mean?

yeah, I can get behind this. I've got a friend who thinks that because he's been roleplaying since he was six he's the most knowledgable in the group. I try to point out that the games been through three and a half editions and innumerable splats since then and that he hasn't even read half the books I've got let alone all the webmaterial out there and yet he's 100% convinced that core is balenced and Wizards are squishy, Fighter feats are worth as much as casting, etc.... meh.

[Umael]

Yes. We are BFFs now. Will you come over and have cupcakes and Tippyverse with me?

(The cupcakes are strawberry!)

Oooo! Strawberry!

[Lycar]

EDIT: IE, I'm not trying to change my group or anything. I love them, love to play with them, love to DM for them. Just sometimes I want to bang my head on the table because they are really, really bad at the numbers side of it.

Uh... have you ever considered that your pals might be thinking along those line:

- We are here for the game
- The numbers are a tool, a means to an end, nothing more
- If the numbers get in the way of the game, they need to be taken behind the shed and shot

In other words: As long as the game works, don't fix something that isn't broken.

Seriously, you are mad at them because they don't care for the numbers. But remember what a game is about: Having fun. And you say yourself that you and your buddies are having a blast, mechanics be damned. You guys are already winning D&D. Do you really want to risk this by bringing all the problems that optimization can cause to your table? Optimization might well be the forbidden fruit.

EDIT2: TELL ME I'M PRETTY.

Fine. You are pretty. Your avatar is butt-ugly though. Happy?

Lycar

[AtwasAwamps]

Uh... have you ever considered that your pals might be thinking along those line:

- We are here for the game
- The numbers are a tool, a means to an end, nothing more
- If the numbers get in the way of the game, they need to be taken behind the shed and shot

In other words: As long as the game works, don't fix something that isn't broken.

Seriously, you are mad at them because they don't care for the numbers. But remember what a game is about: Having fun. And you say yourself that you and your buddies are having a blast, mechanics be damned. You guys are already winning D&D. Do you really want to risk this by bringing all the problems that optimization can cause to your table? Optimization might well be the forbidden fruit.


Fine. You are pretty. Your avatar is butt-ugly though. Happy?

Lycar

Was I seriously that unclear in my post? It says, right there, I'M NOT TRYING TO CHANGE THEM OR ANYTHING ABOUT THE WAY WE PLAY. I'm just venting my frustration, NOT to them so that they don't get offended or think I'm trying to change anything. I am having fun, winning DND, and don't have a problem with it. This is an irritating fly in the ointment, I just wanted to rant and see if anyone else felt like ranting about the same situation.

I need to cliff-notes my posts, don't I?

And if you really want to get into it, I'm not "mad" so much as "frustrated" and if you check my post again, you'll see that there are already members of the group who consider themselves "optimizers" and my frustration with them comes from the fact that they are REALLY BAD AT IT ("Warmage is a wizard+awesome!"). I'm the least powergamey of the group IN PRACTICE, and the most IN THEORY.

EG: You and I are not even remotely in disagreement. Irritation is not the same as "OMG YER DOIN' IT WRONG."

EDIT: I do encourage optimization in the games I run because I think that's fun and that's my DMing style. If they do not enjoy it, they are always welcome to sit out my games. I am currently the most requested DM in the group and I can still make our resident Beatstick-player crap his pants when he catches sight of the re-occurring ninja/swordsage that's been harassing the party on and off, both because she's mechanically dangerous and because it's absolutely terrifying to be briefly strangled by shadows before hearing a voice say "Toodle-oo" and suddenly realize she stole your pants.

[Lin Bayaseda]

You know, the party I'm DMing consists of:
1. Multiclassed Fighter/Paladin who has Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization for every weapon she uses. She also has Power Attack, but it's only used as a prerequisite for Cleave; she never actually Power-Attacked in the character's life.
2. Cleric, who adamantly refuses to understand what DMM is, and once upon a time took Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), because the 1d8 damage of a Heavy Mace was just too little.
3. Arcane Trickster, who entered the prestige class as a Sorcerer, not Wizard, and thus lost a whole level, more or less.

And you know, I got used to it. I wouldn't exchange those players for anything or anyone else for the world. I love them. (I., P., and L., if you're reading this, I love you).

I bet you can get used to it too.

I know I seem to complain a bit about my group, but I’ll be fair, they’re good folks and an absolute blast to play with.

Isn't that what matters?

[Tavar]

Isn't that what matters?

Not really. Doing in person DnD is a whole set of different social interactions. In this case, it seems that playing with the group isn't a problem. It's other stuff. Like their insistence that the OP doesn't know what he's talking about in terms of optimization.

[AtwasAwamps]

I'm going to be over here, bashing my head against my office desk.

I apologize. I think a lot of what I was saying was missed because of the instinctive need to defend the "non-numbers" part of the game, especially as part of the backlash of the heavy optimization present on these boards.

I am used to it. I am happy with my group. I would not trade them for anything ever. That doesn't mean their (MINOR) failings does not cause me to go "Nyaargh!"

EDIT: Case in point…half the people who have posted are well-meaning and have made very well-thought-out posts about why I am wrong about the thing I am agreeing with them about. They are polite and nice and I like them. But since they missed the point of the OP and the other posts I made afterwards…

NYAAAARGH!

[Knaight]

Another voice towards high op characters in a low op world. Only in my case, its by accident, I try to cripple them and drag them down to the level of the rest of my group (on those rare occasions I play D&D), but I can't. And this is from optimizing defense and playing front liners, which only works because the DM never uses the kind of tactics that make it hard to resist. My group finds good saves, high AC, and a decent miss chance more palatable than an offensive monster, and are fine with me using highly defensive options for near invulnerability, but then battles take forever. And I'm not even that good at optimization, the guys I'm playing have no right to be above anyone in power.

Of course, the fact that half of my group has little interest in role playing is a bigger problem, but that is slowly changing, and most of my gaming is done over Skype or chat with people who are die hard role players now anyways, so no harm done.

[Swordgleam]

At least you have that other DM around. That's my release valve, too - the guy who DMs our Iron Heroes group can sympathize with me about the problem players in my 4e group, since we play with the same people.

I'm apparently pretty good at optimizing. At least, my man-at-arms (I only get to play in Iron Heroes) can regularly out-damage the party's berserker and has some of the highest social bonuses in the group even though we have a hunter. The rest of the group's solution has been to pretend not to notice either of these things. We need two high damage characters and two good face characters for most of the situations we get into. Everyone wins.

I think it's only really a problem when people start yelling "broken" and viewing the game as a competition between PCs.

[Sliver]

- The numbers are a tool, a means to an end, nothing more
- If the numbers get in the way of the game, they need to be taken behind the shed and shot

I didn't get that impression. If they wouldn't care for the numbers, they wouldn't ask for advice, others won't give bad advice and would just let the OP help, wouldn't pretend to know better than the OP nor would the DM ask the OP to optimize a bit more than the rest so he can send something challenging without risking a TPK.

[erikun]

For a while, I took what they said at face value, but then I got my hands on the books and started making my own assessments, then I started looking online…and then I realized that Good Gracious Mary, these guys are bad at the “game”. Understand that by the “Game” I don’t mean the actual process of playing, I mean the numbers behind the system that govern DnD.

I hope you don't mind if I rant myself here a bit, but this is one of the most annoying parts of D&D that I've seen. I find that most people who are interested in playing a roleplaying game are interested in the roleplaying, and in playing the game while roleplaying. They aren't interesting is the system as much, and certainly aren't interesting in playing a character creation "mini-game" in order to be any use during the roleplay. They wish for the system to work so that they can sit down and play the game, not to spend a large amount of time adjusting the system so that it finally works well enough for them to sit down and play the game.

Optimization is present and possible in pretty much every system I've seen; people wishing to tweak or optimize a character have had no problem in systems like GURPS or World of Darkness. It is honestly quite annoying when you sit down to play D&D only to discover that Fighters have difficulty fighting, or that the Healer is really bad at healing, or that the Druid renders everyone else pointless.

And back to your regularly scheduled thread.

This comes off of being a hardcore WoW player, so I generally try to temper it back, but its always going to bleed through a little bit.

I've found that trying to be competitive in MMOs is fairly difficult. You need to be as good as the highest level players, or at least as good as the most popular builds, to be any use as a character. You could ignore all that and just spend time with a group of friends, but that isn't exactly playing competitively.

In D&D, by contrast, the only competition you have is the four other people at the table. You could play a Monk wielding a Longspear and still be competitive, because your challangers are not the most powerful builds D&D has to offer, but just the other builds at the table.

In short, why not optimize something unusual? If you're good at number crunching, then taking something poor and turning it into something useful - like a TWF rogue wielding daggers/bastard sword/gnome battle cloak for someone who can freely switch between TWF, THF, and sword-and-board. It's honestly a bit more difficult that trying to see how strong you can make your buffing wizard.

My favourite is that the rogue jealously guards the privelege of opening doors or chests or walking first into new rooms. It doesn't matter that I'm immune to fire, immune to missile weapons, can absorb cold damage, have higher saves than him and just as good an AC; it would be a disaster in his mind to let the squishy wizard spring a trap. He also is not a fan of me using invisibility to come along on scouting runs (I partly understand that one because I might still make noise with less Stealth ranks than he has.)

To be fair, what is the rogue going to do if you trigger all the traps and do all the scouting? Although you could always just make the Rogue invisible, or immune to missile weapons, or whatever else would make him better and his job.

EDIT2: TELL ME I'M PRETTY.

YOU ARE A PRETTY LITTLE BALLERINA thanks to your Bard multiclassing with Warblade with the Song of the White Raven feat, going into Sublime Chord and then Jade Phoenix Mage for 9th level spellcasting with the highest level maneuvers.

[Tengu_temp]

I understand you OP, I really do. Even when you are well-integrated with your group and everyone's characters are on roughly the same power level, it still can feel a bit annoying when you're an optimizer and the others aren't. Fortunately, usually not more than a bit, especially if you're all good friends and the game is great despite that little fact.

[AtwasAwamps]

I've found that trying to be competitive in MMOs is fairly difficult. You need to be as good as the highest level players, or at least as good as the most popular builds, to be any use as a character. You could ignore all that and just spend time with a group of friends, but that isn't exactly playing competitively.

Ooof, yeah. It's why I quit. I have an extremely competitive nature and would spend far too much time on number crunching as a mental exercise. I now do that in DnD. Ugh.

In short, why not optimize something unusual? If you're good at number crunching, then taking something poor and turning it into something useful - like a TWF rogue wielding daggers/bastard sword/gnome battle cloak for someone who can freely switch between TWF, THF, and sword-and-board. It's honestly a bit more difficult that trying to see how strong you can make your buffing wizard.

This is pretty much what I do. Go Go Tower Shield Paladin! One day you will hit something! Though honestly I have to avoid this a little bit too because I can't step on anyone's toes in "party role" because they'll get touchy and no matter what I do, I'll probably do it slightly better.

YOU ARE A PRETTY LITTLE BALLERINA

Goddamn right I am.