4E Psion: Help with my feats

[Fenrazer]

I sat down and decided to prepare the build for my character up to level 18, and was wondering what I should drop and what should stay. I am a Telekinetic Psion, and I will take the Paragon Path Time Bender. I think later on in the levels I wasnt sure which direction to take his build because I am not sure what I will be keeping, or retraining in the mean time...that and the Psion Feats are sucktastic so far...waiting on Psionic Power. My character is a human, and sure they have plenty of feats for action points, but I dont want to blow a feat on a single plus three per encounter or whatever. Not worth it. I'm looking for stuff that is practical, and doesn't rely on a bloody action point to get done. Ideas?

Ritual caster
(Comes with the class)

Psionic Reserves
(Homebrew. Same as Arcane reserves but Replace encounter powers with Power Points)

Mark of Sentinel

Precise Mind

Melee Training

Unarmored Agility

Versatile Expertise (Dagger/Orb)

Implement Expertise

Paragon Defenses

Devastating Critical

Overwhelming Critical

Thats all so far. Let me know if there is anything I should swap out or even a completely different build.

[Fenrazer]

No takers?

[Mando Knight]

1.) Implement and Versatile Expertise don't stack. They're both Feat bonuses.
2.) Melee Training is horrible for a Psion. Next time you fight, count how many times you want to use your Melee Basic. It'll be about once. You should be using your Action points more often than your Melee Basic.
3.) Take Staff/Orb for Expertise. If you are going to use a melee weapon, Staffs are better than Daggers unless you're a Sorcerer or Rogue. Or Swordmage, but they'll kill you for making them use a Dagger rather than a Longsword.
4.) Superior Implements. Minor bonuses, but useful. Staffs: Accurate (either build), Mindwarp (telepathy), or Guardian (telekinesis). Orbs: Accurate (either), Crystal (telepathy), or Petrified (telekinesis).

[Excession]

Psychic Lock, if you have enough powers with the "psychic" keyword.

Distant Advantage is often worth it, or perhaps Vicious Advantage instead depending on your or others' powers.

An initial MC feat is normally worthwhile. The most obvious bonuses would be:
- Arcane Initiate (Wizard) which gets you a skill training and another choice forThunderwave once per encounter.
- Student of Artifice (Artificer), Student of Battle (Warlord), or Initiate of the Faith (Cleric) give a skill training and a once per day emergency heal, with the Artificer option having the benefit of not using a healing surge on your target. Pulling your leader off the floor can win fights.

Taking an MC feat might open up some other options. If you MC to an arcane class you could get a familiar for example, some of those bonuses are pretty decent.

Skill Power, if you find yourself stuck between choosing a class and skill utility.

If you want more damage, despite being a controller, Clever Control from Dragon 382 seems ok.

Weapon Focus: Staff is a more vanilla way to boost damage.

I'm not sure about Devastating and Overwhelming Critical. Even with area attacks, if you're only critting on a 20 are you going to crit often enough to make it worth the feats?

[Thajocoth]

Good feats for a Telekinetic Human Psion up to level 18...


Psionic Reserves (Homebrew. Same as Arcane reserves but Replace encounter powers with Power Points) - This is an excellent feat to take. It's more powerful than it's Arcane equivalent, honestly.

Versatile Expertise - Orb & Dagger
or
Weapon Expertise - Staff
Weapon Focus - Staff

You should never really be in melee.

If you hold an orb: The only reason for you to hold a melee weapon is so that when an enemy starts attacking you, and the party's Defender comes to your aid, he gets a flanking bonus. You don't lose anything by taking Versatile Expertise instead of Implement Expertise though, so you might as well have that extra +1 for the opportunity attack you'll make every 5th session or so.

If you hold a staff: A staff counts as a melee weapon as well, so you don't need a dagger for that rare flanking bonus I mentioned with orb. Weapon Expertise is barely better than Implement Expertise for a Staff for the same reason I said Versatile Expertise rather than Implement Expertise for an Orb wielder. Since it also counts as a melee weapon though, you can take Weapon Focus on your staff for a damage bonus to your Implement attacks with it (and technically to that Opportunity Attack you'll make every 5 sessions, if you somehow hit. You won't. You're not supposed to.)

Human Perseverance. That's a +1 to ALL saves. That includes conditions, death saves, saves not to fall off a cliff... Very nice.

Stubborn Survivor. That's +2 more to ALL saves, and it's untyped so it stacks with Human Perseverance. Use your Action Points early to get the bonus.

Discipline Adept. The extra casting of Forceful Push per encounter is very nice. Get those enemies flanked by the Defender and someone else. Keep them away from you.

Precise Mind. More useful when you have more power points to get the bonus more often.

Distant Advantage. Combat Advantage fairly often.

Unarmored Agility. +2 AC

Vicious Advantage can be good if your party tends to immobilize and/or slow targets a lot. If not, don't take it.

Aberrant Mark of Madness - Hitting someone with a Daily makes them easier for you to hit for the whole encounter. A solid choice once you have a few Dailies.

Superior Implement Training - Crystal Orb means a bonus to almost all your attack and damage rolls (Will attacks and Psychic damage). Mindwarp Staff gives the same damage bonus, but adds to the range of your powers instead of your precision. Accurate Staff is another good option for a straight-up +1 to hit. You might want this feat as one of your level 1 feats, as you can buy a Superior Implement right away, and not have to make mundane implement purchases twice.

Don't Count Me Out - Honestly, most of these conditions should be meaningless to you (except Stun, which is a rare condition to get). But if you have the extra feat, this is worth it.

Dominating Mind - A great choice! Keep your effects lasting longer! Take as your level 11 feat.

Targeting Force if you have a lot of immobilizing/restraining powers.

Psychic Lock - You'll have a lot of Psychic powers, so making them effect the enemy's aim is a great idea.

A good multiclass feat. Difficult to say what exactly is good.
If you multiclass to an Arcane Class and take a Familiar, Serpent will help you get away from attackers that reach melee range. Soarwood Wings would add a nice utility. Least Air Elemental if your DM throws you into pits a lot. Warforged Faceplate's good if you get ambushed at night a lot.

That's all.

EDIT: The above are the current Heroic & Paragon Tier feats that are good. As you play though, a lot more good stuff with come into existence. I'm sure there'll be a "Psionic Power" book at some point with loads of new things for Psions to pick. So don't pre-decide everything and then never look again.

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The only other feats I'd remotely consider besides the above:
Paragon Defenses
Toughness
Durable

Remember though... You're supposed to find an out-of-the-way corner somewhere to cast from. Most attacks should not include you as a target.

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What you listed, but are terrible choices (and why):

Mark of Sentinel - You're a ranged class. You don't take Opportunity Attacks. You should almost NEVER be in melee.

Melee Training - You're a ranged class. You should almost NEVER be in melee.

Implement Expertise - Doesn't stack with Versatile Expertise. I'd recommend this feat if Versatile Expertise didn't exist.

Devastating Critical - You crit 5% of the time. That's very rare. There's far better for you to take.

Overwhelming Critical - You crit 5% of the time. That's very rare. There's far better for you to take.

If you really want to power up your crits for some odd reason, as rare as they are, Critical Reserve is a better choice. It gives you more Power Points when you crit (with an unaugmented at-will.)

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One more note... If you wield a Staff, you can put a Dragonshard in it. Shard of the Mage will add a flat bonus to all your damage. Keep in mind though, damage is not a primary thing for you. You're not a striker. Your primary thing is ensuring that the battlefield is in your party's favor. You move enemies around, have them attack one another... Anything you do for a damage bonus should be considered last. Any penalties you can add to an enemy's saves are great for a Psion. The Dragonshard, honestly, has the most benefit to Sorcerers (and arguably Swordmages)...

[Mando Knight]

Versatile Expertise - Orb & Dagger
or
Weapon Expertise - Staff

Cut out the strikes, and you've got a better suggestion.

Daggers are rather worthless weapons unless your class is called Rogue or Sorcerer. Implement classes with Staffs do better with Staffs than Daggers, and the rest of the classes can just use Military or Superior weapons.

Furthermore, the text of Weapon Expertise, unlike that for Weapon Focus, specifically states that it only functions with Weapon powers. Versatile Expertise works with all powers used with the selected groups.

[Thajocoth]

Cut out the strikes, and you've got a better suggestion.

Daggers are rather worthless weapons unless your class is called Rogue or Sorcerer. Implement classes with Staffs do better with Staffs than Daggers, and the rest of the classes can just use Military or Superior weapons.

Furthermore, the text of Weapon Expertise, unlike that for Weapon Focus, specifically states that it only functions with Weapon powers. Versatile Expertise works with all powers used with the selected groups.

You need 2 hands to use a staff as a melee weapon. If he goes with orbs, he'll need something else in his offhand to give the Defender that rare flanking bonus when he comes to protect his Psion from an enemy that got passed him. Dagger's 1gp and works well enough for that. He doesn't need to be able to hit with it, so I certainly see your logic though. This would enable him to choose between orbs & staffs whenever he wants, perhaps based on loot gained, instead of at level 1... Except that he should likely take a Superior Implement feat, which would pretty much decide on one or the other when he takes THAT feat (which should be level 1).

So whichever he picks between Staffs & Orbs, it makes sense for him to dump any notion of ever using the other.

If he picks Staffs though, you're right, due to the wording of Weapon Expertise. Pick Staffs & anything else. The other option would be largely irrelevant.

[Mando Knight]

You need 2 hands to use a staff as a melee weapon. If he goes with orbs, he'll need something else in his offhand to give the Defender that rare flanking bonus when he comes to protect his Psion from an enemy that got passed him. Dagger's 1gp and works well enough for that. He doesn't need to be able to hit with it, so I certainly see your logic though.

1.) You don't need a weapon to flank in 4e.
2.) If you're not going to hit with it, why spend the Expertise in it?

[Thajocoth]

1.) You don't need a weapon to flank in 4e.
2.) If you're not going to hit with it, why spend the Expertise in it?

1) Just looked it up... I'll inform my DM.
2) It'll cause a hit maybe once per tier. Better than nothing.
3) You can select Unarmed for your weapon if you want to. Even if you never expect to hit with it, it's more useful (barely) to have what you use for OAs as your second boosted thing than it is to have something you NEVER wield get the boost. Having it be a Dagger would add another +3 (proficiency), which makes it 15% more likely to hit than Unarmed. I figure it's a "Might as well. Couldn't hurt." kinda thing.

[Fenrazer]

This has been a very enlightening read. I appreciate it fellas.

I took Melee training and Sentinel because early on it was me, and a fighter, and I had an awful lot of guys coming at me since he couldn't keep them all on him. Ill definitely review this a lot. If there are any other suggestions, I'm always listening. Also, when I fix up a new list, Ill repost it on here.

Thanks again.

[Mando Knight]

I took Melee training and Sentinel because early on it was me, and a fighter, and I had an awful lot of guys coming at me since he couldn't keep them all on him.

Honestly, Controllers are almost completely worthless if there's only two characters. You'd have been far better off using a melee-based Leader or a Paladin instead, since your buddy was a Fighter. If he was a Leader, then a Defender or melee Striker would have been in order. Of the Controllers, I'd only really ever consider a wildshape-focused Druid for a two-man party.

[Fenrazer]

Honestly, Controllers are almost completely worthless if there's only two characters. You'd have been far better off using a melee-based Leader or a Paladin instead, since your buddy was a Fighter. If he was a Leader, then a Defender or melee Striker would have been in order. Of the Controllers, I'd only really ever consider a wildshape-focused Druid for a two-man party.

Aye to that. I had considered making a Battlemind, but then I received word that we would have others joining us. Now we have an Elf Two Blade Ranger, a Human Fighter (not sure of the build), a WF Dark'Lock, and my TK Psion, and next session we will have a Dragonborn Pally joining us.

I knew it would have been a mistake had we kept only two, but I also knew I could just retrain once we have a working group.

[Mando Knight]

Aye to that. I had considered making a Battlemind, but then I received word that we would have others joining us. Now we have an Elf Two Blade Ranger, a Human Fighter (not sure of the build), a WF Dark'Lock, and my TK Psion, and next session we will have a Dragonborn Pally joining us.

I knew it would have been a mistake had we kept only two, but I also knew I could just retrain once we have a working group.

Still no dedicated healer? And the Warforged is Dark Pact (a Cha build on a Con race)? Ouch...

MC into a Leader class (Cleric and Artificer match up with your build best), and strongly suggest that everyone else do the same. Paladins can barely pull off healing the party if it's just him and another Defender or a melee Striker, but not if he's the only source of healing in a party of four or five. Also point your Forged buddy towards the Vestige, Star, and Infernal pacts. They all use Constitution rather than Charisma.

[Fenrazer]

Still no dedicated healer? And the Warforged is Dark Pact (a Cha build on a Con race)? Ouch...

MC into a Leader class (Cleric and Artificer match up with your build best), and strongly suggest that everyone else do the same. Paladins can barely pull off healing the party if it's just him and another Defender or a melee Striker, but not if he's the only source of healing in a party of four or five. Also point your Forged buddy towards the Vestige, Star, and Infernal pacts. They all use Constitution rather than Charisma.

Hahaha. I know it sounds like we REALLY know what we are doing, right? =-]

The Warforged player is planning on taking on twin pact later on as part of a story thing. Story aside, the Warforged, Dathian, is a character that had plenty of HP to stretch in the event of something bad. Overall, the Warforged has both taken and dealt more damage than any character (some of which are from Pact Power sacrifice), since joining the party. I know it's unconventional, but the character Owns, and not even with good rolls. At this point, his Cha is equal to his Con. Might also take on Pact of the Angelic Choir, which is still Cha based, but he's been our teams duct tape so far.

EDIT: Oh, sorry, no healer as of yet, save for the pally, but we've got small backup from alchemy, and skill powers from healing. Still a bit lacking, I know, and I might also multiclass my Psion into something that heals. At this point, every character will have backup healing on some level. The Pally will have Light Within, and good feats to power up her Lay On Hands.

Any suggestions for my group besides concerning healing? Still new to this system.

[ImperiousLeader]

You may want to consider a background that gives Heal as a class skill. If you're trained in Heal, that opens up some Heal based skill powers, which could save your party's bacon.

[Sinon]

After Mando Knight: Superior Implements is worth the bonus. Even if you just take the easy route for an accurate implement, it’s good. I like the petrified orb for all your forced-movment powers.

After Excession: Psychic Lock is worth it, even if you only have one at-will with psychic damage.

My picks: Solid Sound (PHB1) +2 to any defense whenever you use a force power, which, as a telekinetic, could be like every round? Totally worth it.

Discipline Adept: Using your free-action Forceful Push to slide a guy 2 squares another time per round? I love it. I’d take this feat three times if I could. (edit: just noticed Tajocoth said this already.)

Either proficiency in leather armor or Unarmored Agility. The bonus to AC is the same, so it is just a matter of what armor suits you better.

[Sinon]

For your melee issues, I like Force Punch, which you could have as your human bonus at-will. Even unaugmented, since you couldn’t augment a bonus power anyway) it’s nice to clear your immediate area of opponents.

With a couple of cheap items (Rushing Cleats, Gauntlets of the Ram, Petrified Orb) you’re pushing every adjacent opponent 4 squares when you hit one of them.

[Fenrazer]

For your melee issues, I like Force Punch, which you could have as your human bonus at-will. Even unaugmented, since you couldn’t augment a bonus power anyway) it’s nice to clear your immediate area of opponents.

With a couple of cheap items (Rushing Cleats, Gauntlets of the Ram, Petrified Orb) you’re pushing every adjacent opponent 4 squares when you hit one of them.

Which book are these objects in? I did a quick word search but am not finding them. All my books are on adobe, which does a terrible job of copying text. Four squares isn't much since most can cover that distance in a move action, it still would be good to clear the playing field and work my situation out.

[Sinon]

Rushing Cleats: Adventurer's Vault
Gauntlets of the Ram: PHB1
Petrified Orb: PHB3

Four squares isn't much since most can cover that distance in a move action, it still would be good to clear the playing field and work my situation out.

3 more squares than had you merely shifted, plus you still have your own move action to increase the distance, and it pushes all your adjacent foes, not just the one you hit.

Between that and a melee basic attack with a dagger or a staff, I pick Force Punch.

Considering the way your human bonus works for psions, I think it is a good choice.

Dishearten is not too bad either. If you have Psychic Lock, you can impose a total -4 on foes, which is OK. And the fact that your Cha is probably low is irrelevant, because you aren't able to augment it anyway.

Here are the feats for my 14th level telekinetic psion:

DM's Bonus: Versatile Expertise (staff and orb)
Class : Ritual Casting
Human : Arcane Initiate
Level 1 : Superior Implement Training
Level 2 : Controlling Advantage
Level 4 : Discipline Adept
Level 6 : Leather Armor Training
Level 8 : Great Fortitude
Level 10 : Targeting Force
Level 11 : Inescapable Force
Level 12 : Psychic Lock
Level 14 : Solid Sound

[Fenrazer]

Much appreciated. I like your model. Time for some brainstorming!

[Kurald Galain]

With a couple of cheap items (Rushing Cleats, Gauntlets of the Ram, Petrified Orb) you’re pushing every adjacent opponent 4 squares when you hit one of them.

As a fervent wizard player, I can attest that pushing enemies is both hilarious and a highly effective strategy. Throw monsters next to the defender, into a raging fire, or off a cliff for fun and profit!

[DragonBaneDM]

As a fervent wizard player, I can attest that pushing enemies is both hilarious and a highly effective strategy. Throw monsters next to the defender, into a raging fire, or off a cliff for fun and profit!

Except now they get a saving throw. :(

[Draz74]

Except now they get a saving throw. :(

So? That still means your power has all its cool, usual effects, plus a 45% chance of instant death (or whatever)!

[Sinon]

As a fervent wizard player, I can attest that pushing enemies is both hilarious and a highly effective strategy. Throw monsters next to the defender, into a raging fire, or off a cliff for fun and profit!

Yeah, for his wizard at-will power, I took one of your faves: Thunderwave. I’m pushing wis-mod +3 with those same items. Nice little encounter option.

So, what PP you looking at?

[Gralamin]

Please check your Private Messages / Emails Fenrazer.

That being said, there is some good advice here. Your group is primarily missing a leader, and that is one of the most noticeable roles to miss. Watch yourselves against controller-heavy enemy groups: Your lack of a leader will cause them to much more effective then usual.